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FAQs on Discus Systems

I am emailing you regarding a problem that I have been having with my fresh water Discus tank. 3/23/08
First I will start with the details on my aquarium set up. It is a 30 gallon
<Too small...>
fish tank with plenty of live plant life, 2 Discus (1 of them expired because of my problem), 3 albino Danios, 3 white cloud tetras, 3 green tetras, 1 albino Corydoras cat fish, and 3 Otos (who were all fed twice daily with reasonable amounts of frozen foods).
<Mmm, don't really eat such...>
I do a 30% water change every week with treated tap water
<Good>
(I add plant nutrients, a pH lower, black water extract, and prime)

in order to maintain proper water parameters. Regular water tests show that my water typically stays around 0 ppm of ammonia, 0 ppm of nitrite, around/below 20 ppm of nitrate,
<Too much for Symphysodon>
and a pH of 6.4. I used two back mounted power filters in order to keep the water circulating with a combination of filter floss, carbon, media for housing beneficial bacteria, and bags of media to chemically lower nitrates.
<These can be problematical>
This worked perfectly well on my tank for a while until one day I spoiled a water change where I planned on scrubbing down the glass and changing the water, but instead I ended up scrubbing off the glass, changing the water, and stirring up the gravel (which is a very fine substrate for my plants) by pouring in the water. White cloudy water followed this water change and nothing I could do would fix this. It was putting much stress on the inhabitants of my aquarium so while I was doing research I was doing 50% water changes daily which made the water less cloudy and the fish swam around like normal until the next morning when I had to do the water change again. Much research told me that the only thing it could be would be a bacterial bloom and after talking with my local discus breeder (Wattley Discus)
<Hello to Jack>
I put a cartridge filter on my fish tank that broke it down to something like 1 micron (this filter was a canister that was connected to a pump that was separate from the filter). I left this filter on my fish tank for 12 hours and the fish tank cleaned up right away, but the water was starting to turn cloudy again within 24 hours so I put this canister filter on my fish tank again and the water was polished right up all over again. I then invested my money into my own canister filter (a Fluval 205) which i fitted with biological filter media (little clay tabs), peat, zeolite, and the stock sponge media and I removed the other canister filter. Shortly thereafter my water started to cloud up however it was not as bad as before and my fish population did not seem as stressed as before. So, I added the Fluval water polishing media to my aquarium and the water did not clean up all that well. I was going away for a week the next day so as a last resort i took the other canister and put it on the output line of the Fluval and the water cleared up within the hour. Throughout this whole endeavor my water parameters were kept in check. I have done research that suggests that keeping the water polishing canister on line with the Fluval may not be a good idea because it will remove too many essential properties from the water.
<This may be so>
I have since disconnected one of the hang on filters from the back. I have the next week off so I would like to know what all I could/should do to my aquarium to keep it in check.
<Mmm, mainly less... I would mix, store your make-up water for the week ahead of time, cut out the use of Prime (unnecessary then), get rid of the nitrate absorbing filtrant... and start saving for a larger system>
Any help will be greatly appreciated. p.s. The only other information that I could see as relevant to this problem could be the lighting and the presence of an oxygen stone. The oxygen stone was putting the bubbles off right into one of the hang on filters and the bubbles were being broken down and dispersed throughout the entire tank. Also I have heavy lighting on the aquarium which consists of a stock head that has a light fit for plant growth and a high output fluorescent head with 2 actinic blue bulbs and 2 daylight bulbs.> Thank you, Josh Early.
<Mmm, what you need is a bit more biology, less chemical use... Bob Fenner>

Re: Cloudy Water Discus Tank 3/26/08
I appreciate your quick response to my troubles, but this simply opens up more questions for me.
<OK, Scott V. here this go round.>
Is it necessary for me to cut out the prime from my water, or is it just a corner cutter to save money?
<It is a matter of adding less to your water. All the additives are likely contributing to your problem, hence the urging to use RO water instead.>
Also, how would I go about increasing the biological capacity of my filters and handle the nitrates by non-chemical means.
<Increasing the biofiltration should not be an issue. Handling the nitrate should happen through your water changes, 30% a week is quite substantial. Yet but another reason for RO water, your make up water itself is likely high in nitrate.>
Another thing you addressed is the size of my aquarium. What size should I take my fish tank to as a minimum and why? (as Wattley Discus seemed to find nothing wrong with my tank setup as long as I could keep my water parameters in check).
<A 55 gallon would be fine. Discus get fairly large and are shy, skittish fish. The larger tank will help you with diluting pollutants (such as your nitrate issue) and prove better psychologically for the fish.>
I also don't feel that you addressed my main issue of the cloudy water and what I should do about the external water polishing canister filter or if you did I completely missed it.
<The canister treats the symptoms, not the problem. It sounds like your issues stem from your water and the additives to begin with, a larger system will certainly not hurt and will be necessary as the fish grow.>
Any further response will be greatly appreciated.
-Josh
<Welcome, Scott V.>

Re: Cloudy Water Discus Tank 3/29/08
Ok thank you for all of your help.
<Very welcome.>
I was doing the water quality from memory (since I was out of town at the time of my first email) and have since tested the water after a week of my absence and it came out to be 0 ppm of ammonia, 0 ppm of nitrite, and 0 ppm of nitrate.
<Good to hear.>
I eventually be investing in a bigger system, but my plan was to upgrade the tank as the fish started to reach adulthood or simply divide them based on pairs into smaller tanks and start fresh wit the 30 gallon. Your help is greatly appreciated.
<Welcome, best regards, Scott V.>

Discus Fish! Sys. 2/18/08
Good Afternoon Crew,
First, Thank You for creating such an excellent site!
<Thanks.>
I have a few questions, mostly about setting up a Discus show tank. First, the tank I have in mind is the 'standard' "4 footer" 55 gallon tank. Most details are still in the planning stage, as I have nothing in the tank at the moment.
Optimally, I would like 3 discuss (starting out w/ smaller sized, non-hormone added, captive bread stock) and a school of Cardinal Tetras (about a dozen or so, unless I can fit more). That would be it.
<Discus can in theory at least eat Cardinals, but in reality this seems to be pretty rare.>
These additions will all be placed in the tank after it has been sufficiently cycled for weeks, and the parameters are all at zero (or very, very close to zero for nitrates) ( for cycling, it will be "non fish".. I prefer BioSpira and the transfer of some media/water from other disease-free tanks).
<Transferring water will do nothing about carrying across the bacteria. Transferring media, on the other hand, works very well, and negates the need for Bio Spira completely. You can remove up to 50% of the media from a mature filter and not cause water quality problems in the donor tank.>
My questions are:
1. Is this too small an environment for Discus? I have been reading a lot, and, as always with this hobby, have read much conflicting advice, but believe this will be sufficient.
<55 US gallons is at the low end for Discus. Discus can get big and they're also sensitive to water quality and pH fluctuations, so anything you can do to prevent this helps. Psychologically, Discus also like deep tanks with ample swimming room, particularly once they become mature and territorial. A bigger tank would be highly recommended.>
2. Should I add the school of Cardinals first (I believe this is the case) or second? (as in, after the Discus?)
<Make no difference really. I suppose adding the Cardinals first would be better, in the sense that Discus don't like changes. But if you wanted to go the other way round, it wouldn't be the end of the world. Cardinals aren't dither fish so won't help the Discus settle in. For dither fish, Silver Hatchet fish work much better.>
3. What is the best substrate? Since I am not planning on live plants ( I know Discus prefer lower light levels, and I know they prefer wood/etc as opposed to live plants anyway) I think a non-silicate based sand will be OK. Or should I stick with a smooth rock base?
<Anything easy to clean, and preferably dark in colour, e.g., black sand. The main thing is that the substrate be non *calcareous*.>
4. I plan on utilizing a large (15 gallon) bucket to house water that will be temperature matched, aerated, de-chlorinated, and allowed to sit for a period of days. Will weekly 8-10 gallon water changes be sufficient?
<Discus need 50% water changes per week. Non-negotiable, really. They're just too sensitive to nitrate and acidification.>
5. Will it be OK to mix colors of Discus? As in 1 blue, 1 Marlboro Red, etc.?
<Yes, though obviously for breeding purposes you will want to concentrate on a single strain. Moreover, schooling fish tend to look better when they're all the same. A mish-mash of stuff just looks like a mess. Finally, the inbred fancy Discus tend to be smaller and less hardy than the standard greens and blues, so there's a lot to be said for going with wild-type fish (as opposed to wild-caught fish, which are difficult to maintain).>
Thank you again for all your help!
Ed
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Discus Fish! Sys. 2/19/08
Neale,
<Ed,>
Thanks for the quick answer. Let's say I'm glad I'm still in the patient planning stages. As for a deeper tank, how about a bow-front style tank? Actually, as I write this, it's probably up to personal choice, as long as it's larger overall, and deeper, correct?
<Depth is depth. At least 50 cm. The shape of the tank doesn't matter all that much, though obviously surface area is important.>
How long would I be all right with my current tank if I choose to go that route?
<Possibly indefinitely, but the issue is managing water quality and chemistry stability. Half a dozen juveniles will probably be fine in there, but once they're adults, I suspect you'll find things limiting.>
For the fish, I actually like the striped-color (blue, green, etc) varieties better, and will definitely consider your suggestion for getting three of the same colors.
<If you have a graphics program, try copying and pasting six different Discus varieties onto a black box, and then compare six of the same kind. You'll immediately notice the difference!>
Those are two great points that I didn't consider.
Another question I forgot to ask: Since Discus mainly stay towards the middle of the aquarium, will adding a powerhead that is directed horizontally across the very bottom of the tank (to help move water and to keep particles suspended in the water longer) help, or hurt them b/c they need lower current?
<Provided water flow in the tank wasn't crazy-fast, it would be fine. But overall you're aiming for around 6 times the volume of the tank in turnover per hour.>
Taking your advice, I will plan on doing two -15 gallon water changes per week.. This should be 30 gallons total, which is (obviously) a bit more than 50%.
<Indeed.>
Again, Thanks for the help!
Ed
<Happy to help, Neale.>

Re: Discus Fish System 2/21/08
Thank you for pointing that out.. Next time I'll check the Daily FAQ's... Hopefully this e-mail problem will resolve itself..
As for a tank, if you had your choice (for 3 discus and a school of Cardinal Tetras) would you choose a 42 Gallon Bow or a 55 gallon standard? (The 42 is obviously less total gallonage, however it's taller and would provide more comfort for the Discus).
Thanks for your help, again!
Ed
<Greetings. Location, location, location... sorry, I mean: capacity, capacity, capacity. Everything in fishkeeping is easier/better as volume goes up. There's no question that the 55 gallon tank would be better. You've got 25% more water for a start, but also a more favourable surface area which means more oxygen and CO2 exchange. I'm assuming the 55 gallon system is around 45 cm/18" deep, which is going to be ample for Discus. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Discus Fish System, Loricariid comp. 2/25/08
Neale/Crew of WWM,
<Hello,>
Thank you for the quick answer once again.
I have two more questions:
As far as the Discus go, I've read in many places that they aren't good to mix with, say, a common Pleco, because there's the possibility they will eat the slime coat off the discus.
<Correct; doesn't always happen, but happens sufficiently often.>
However, certain ones that stay on the smaller side and aren't too active would be okay. I really like the Gold-Nugget Plecos and have read they only get to be 5-6 inches or so. How would this work?
<Baryancistrus sp. L018 could be okay, and does like quite warm water, which meshes nicely with what Symphysodon wants. But regardless: keep an eye on things, and act accordingly.>
Second, I've been reading a lot about filtration (still...) and currently have a Penguin Bio Wheel filter.. rated for 30 gallons. Obviously this will not be sufficient for the 55 gallon alone. I have two choices I'm kicking back and forth: an Aqua Clear 50 HOB filter, for about $45, or an Eheim Ecco 2232 which is rated at 127 gph for a 35 gallon tank for $89. (or another brand/model...) Is the canister filter worth the extra money here?
<Yes.>
My concern is in regard to the build of nitrates (yes, I do realize they will build in all mech. filters and have to be changed).
<Nitrate build-up in canister filters may well be an issue, but with proper maintenance it shouldn't happen. Actually, "your mileage may vary" -- I know people keeping very successful reef tanks that use canister filters they clean only once or twice a year! The benefit of canister filters is the generous water turnover and the option for useful selections of media. Hang-on-the-back filters come with these stupid "cartridge" modules that contain useless junk like carbon and zeolite. While great for the manufacturers and retailers, they're a waste of space for freshwater aquarists. What you want is a filter with empty modules into which you can put good-quality media like Siporax as well as filter wool that can be changed as often as required (which will be OFTEN in a planted tank.>
Thanks a lot for the help!
Eric
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Discus Fish System; filter options, and catfish -02/25/08
Good day,
Thank you for the answer in regard to the Pleco and the filter. I will definitely keep an eye out for any harmful interactions. I did hear that the discus actually 'like' the slime coat-action? (Even though it's not good for them) Interesting..

As for the filter: the AquaClear 50 is rated at 200 gph, while the Ecco Canister is rated for 127 gph. I guess I'm confused as how the latter would be more flow?
<In theory then the 200 gph filter would be better. But my experience of hang-on-the-back filters is that they are less good at cleaning solid wastes from the bottom of the tank. They're also less flexible in terms of media options, though that varies. In any case choose whichever you prefer, provided the 4x volume of the tank in turnover per hour is observed.>
Is that because the canister is more efficient, or the design?
<Canisters are more flexible in terms of options and accessories, but if you place one under the tank it actually is less efficient in terms of turnover than a hang-on filter at water level (because the canister now has to work against gravity).>
The AquaClear also has different options for media, and I can use the pre-made 'bags' for pretty much anything.
<The bags are often pretty rubbish. Anything pre-packaged does so to extract more money for less stuff. Nothing sold to consumers breaks this law.>
I do think part of my hesitation (besides that which is listed above) is because I am familiar w/ the AquaClear, while I've never used a Canister before.
<Almost all experienced freshwater aquarists migrate from hang-on filters and internal filters to external canister filters. They are just better value and more flexible. Of course, you're free to do whatever you want, so long as the basic rules are observed.>
One last question (I promise): what about noise levels? I have read favorable things in regard to quality, longevity, etc. etc. about the Ecco (and entire Eheim line, for that matter) but there's not much in regard to how noisy it will be; in relation to the AquaClear.
<Canister filters can be noisy if they get air bubbles inside them, but are generally silent when up and running properly.>
Thanks again,
E
<Cheers, Neale.>

Water hardness, Discus 2/17/08
Hi. how are you? It's me again. I just wanted to know what is the approximate hardness for discus. Your articles said about 10 degrees GH. Is this the same as 10 degrees dh? Thank you for your help.
<Please read this article before you do anything else:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwh2oquality.htm
If you don't 100% understand water chemistry, then don't start adjusting the water chemistry in your aquarium. Instead, do a water test on your tap water, and then choose fish that are adapted to those conditions. If your local water is hard, then stick with hard water fish. In any event, there's no such thing as "10 degrees GH" which is why I'm warning you to be careful. I'm guessing you mean "10 degrees dH" which is sometimes referred to as the 'General Hardness', hence 'GH'. But the scale itself is in units dH, which stands for Deutsche Haerte, or 'German Hardness'. Discus vary in their optimal water hardness requirements. Wild-caught fish will need water that is quite soft, ideally 3-10 degrees dH. Tank-bred fish are less fussy, and will do well at up to 15 degrees dH, maybe even slightly more. But regardless of the water hardness, the Discus need water chemistry stability, and that means that you understand -- and can manage -- the Carbonate Hardness of the water (measured in degrees KH). Cheers, Neale.>

Adapting, FW, fish, water cond.s... e.g. Discus and hard water 2-9-08
Hi again. I just wanted to know, is it possible for a fish to adapt to a certain water condition? For example, a discus adapting to a slightly hard water. Thank you.
<Up to a point, yes, fish will adapt to a range of water chemistry conditions. But the degree to which this is true depends profoundly on the species in question. Guppies won't adapt to soft/acid water, for example, even though they will do well in hard water, brackish water, and if acclimated carefully, even seawater. Wild-caught Discus simply must be kept in at least somewhat soft, slightly acidic water (i.e., pH 6-6.5, 3-5 degrees dH). Tank-bred Discus are a bit more amenable to harder water, and will do well at pH 7, 10 degrees dH. Given that Discus need much warmer water than most other tropical fish, and are also that bit more sensitive to bullying and nitrate poisoning, there's no point keeping Discus in a "community" setting, so you may as well set up the one tank just for them with precisely controlled water chemistry. Cheers, Neale.>

High ph and low alkalinity, Discus sys. 10/22/07
Hello,
<Hi there>
I am a long time aquarium keeper who has been quite lucky over the years and just let my tank be whatever way it balanced itself to be and have kept a general variety of fish without any problems or turmoil.
That is until I decided that I want to keep discus. In talking to my LFS about doing this it was recommended that I change some things within my tank before purchasing discus otherwise I would just be wasting my money and their lives.
<Let's see>
All things recommended have been accomplished over the past year (not without much appreciated help from you guys I might add) except one.
The main and most troubling change is "buffering-in" a lower pH. I have done everything you have recommended; I changed to RO water to solve the liquid rock tap water problem; I lowered my KH to 3dK; I incorporated several pieces of driftwood; I began religiously changing out 20% of the water in the tank every week; etc, but guess what? pH is still 7.4-7.6.
<This may not be an issue... Are the Discus you keep tank-bred and raised (i.e. not wild-caught?)... If so, this pH range is likely fine>
I did try phosphate buffers which did a great job of keeping my pH where I want it between 6.5 and 6.8, but caused an algae bloom, and dropped the KH to zero, so no more phosphates for me thanks.
I have tried several other things to bring down the pH as well, including allowing the detritus to build up in the gravel
<Mmm, not recommended>
which just brought about a blue-green algae problem and I have tried non phosphate acid buffer which only chips away at the KH before disappearing and allowing the pH to rise back up.
<Yes>
So this is where I am and I hope that you can help. I use RO water and add back the minerals using Kent's RO right. I add 1.5 tsp to 15 gal, which results in a TDS reading of 170ppm on an electronic probe, and an undetectable reading on a calcium/magnesium GH titration test kit ( I don't know why GH is so low with this product, nor do I even know if I should be concerned with it since the TDS reading is high enough). I add KH by adding bicarb to attain a KH reading of 4dK. Then I use this water for my changes.
<Mmm, depending on the make-up (GH, KH) of your source water, I'd likely give up the Kent's product and just add/blend some of this in with the RO>
I have heard much on alkalinity and carbonates to buffer against a drop in pH, but what about buffering against a rise in pH?
<Is a/the same concept... a buffer "holds" or resists change in both directions... depending on the "trend" in captive systems (most all are decidedly reductive, as in reduction/oxidation... OILRIG, "oxidation is losing, reduction is gaining...." electrons... Acids are proton donors, electron acceptors... basic (not a pun) chemistry... Tanks tend to "go acidic" with time... resultant from feeding, decomposition processes, crowding...>
What "stable" chemicals, and acidity buffering tests etc can be employed in the fight against a rising pH?
<First, the discovery of alkaline/alkalinity sources... Likely substrate here... perhaps more pre-eminently, the checking of your test gear as well....>
I already have my KH as low as anyone would recommend.
Thank you
SL
<Again, really... I would NOT be concerned with the mid 7's pH you state... IS fine, esp. if the Symphysodon have been captive-produced... I would suggest another 20% change of water (twice per week) to lower metabolites... Much more of a likely issue than pH effects. Do please read this excellent piece by NealeM here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwhardness.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Establishing Discus tank 9/20/07
<<Hi. Tom here.>>
I would like to establish a discus only tank.
<<An enviable project!>>
A site online mentioned that it is better to intro other compatible fish first to establish a bio load.
<<If the site is speaking of using other fish to cycle the tank, I’d be very reluctant to use any other information it provides. That practice had its “sunset” at least a decade ago and ‘fishless’ cycling has been around the hobby for much longer than that. Now, in fairness, Discus are very sensitive to water conditions so it could be that the site you’re referring to is recommending adding compatible fish AFTER the tank has cycled to try to minimize the impact on the Discus when they’re introduced. Rather wishful thinking if this is the case since any additional fish will always affect the bio-load to one degree or another. (I highly doubt this is what they were getting at but I’m feeling generous this afternoon. :) )>>
And that the discus should not be introduced for six weeks.
<<That would depend totally on the results of water testing. Six weeks may be more than enough time or, it could just as easily be premature. I doubt there’s a single member of this Crew who’d suggest a specific time frame without benefit of some specific information about the water conditions. Ideally, you would be testing regularly to monitor the rise and fall of ammonia/nitrites in the tank. When only nitrates are detectable, you’re “golden”.>>
Is it possible to obtain the same effect by purchasing bacteria from the LFS?
<<Yes, but I’ll qualify that by saying that the product needs to be BIO-Spira from Marineland. Many off-the-shelf products are largely ineffective at cycling a tank quickly and some are outright wastes of your money.>>
If so, how long should I wait to introduce the fish?
<<No longer than 24 hours and better if within 8-10 hours when using BIO-Spira. The Nitrospira bacteria responsible for nitrifying nitrites are quite slow to reproduce – dismally slow by bacterial standards – and need a source of nitrites rather quickly to remain viable and propagate. The upside, however, is that the tank is about as “instantly cycled” with the use of this product as you can reasonably ask for. However you choose to go about cycling your tank, using live fish for this purpose shouldn’t even be considered an option. Potentially sacrificing life when there are quick, safe and effective methods to accomplish the same thing would be completely irresponsible and cruel. Now, my “soapboxing” aside, I wish you the best of luck with your Discus tank. I’m sure you’ll enjoy the results! Tom>>

Re: establishing Discus tank 7/21/07
Hi again,
<<Greetings again.>>
At the risk of sounding stupid, I need something clarified. After adding the bottled bacteria, can I introduce discus fish?
<<Not a “stupid” question at all. Yes, you can introduce the Discus after adding the bacteria. My apologies for not being clear on that point. Tom>>

Discus/ Maintenance, reading 9/11/07
Hello crew!
I would like to thank you for taking the time once again to assist me with my discus issues. I just have a couple of questions to pose to you!
Firstly, I have a 68 gallon discus planted tank, and was wondering if there is a more efficient way of conducting my weekly water changes. Currently, I empty the 2/3 of the tank, then have to refill with a watering can!
<Yeeikes!>
I have read that there is some sort of tool or apparatus that can be used to assist in such a task?
<All sorts...>
Something that attaches to the sink?
<Mmm, is your tapwater the source here? If so there are basically "water bed" fill and drain kits sold... by Python Products, Lee's... and water bed companies/outlets that will get you this>
With my growing hobby, which is becoming an obsession, I need to make my water changes as efficient as possible in order to get to cleaning all my tanks in one afternoon.
Secondly, I was curious to know how one can construct a fish room. I have seen on various discus breeders websites, the idea of some how linking all the ( 20 odd???) tanks as one system?
<Sure...>
I was just interested to know how I would be able to construct a fish room, with say 9 or 10 tanks all linked on the same filtration system? Is it a job that requires a plumber, or can a couple of guys who are handy around the home make such a thing? Any help or direction would be really helpful.
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/cntfiltbiz.htm
and the linked files above>
Once more, thanks for your encouragement and guidance!
Jarryd
<For Discus... you likely will want to make, store treated water... heat it... and use a fluid-moving pump... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/discussysfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Discus setup and R.O.; Tank Mates For Discus 8/26/07
Hello crew, Have put up posts on the public forums but no reply as yet and tbh would appreciate a fairly quick reply if possible. Since the volume output production of my R.O. unit is slow, a trickle, it is best at the moment for me to perform one 15 litre w/c per day which over the course of a week equals a 50% w/c on both tanks. This equates to a 7 - 8 % w/c each day. Is this low level change ok to do or are the benefits minimal?
< This depends on where you water chemistry is now and where you want it to be. If you are trying to lower the pH then it probably won't do much good. If you are trying to lower to total dissolved solids then you should be fine.>
I'm getting two huge tubs soon so I can just turn it on and walk away for a couple or few hours without having to tend to it all the time.
Last of all, my father and I have decided to take the direction of our main display tank to a Discus setup. I have read Bob Fenner's article called "The cichlid fishes called Discus". I'm trying to find out if the temps for them would be too high for Syno cats, eupterus and nigriventris. Mr. Fenner gives an example of suitable fish companions for Discus, was wondering if there was a particular exact source (or your recommendation) for a few more species. I don't think I'll be able to get the pH low enough for cardinals.
We appreciate that these fish need extra special care and fully intend to create as perfect and suitable environment for them as possible, low lighting, correct plants, right GH and KH etc.
Many thanks team. Steve.
< The Synodontis cats get big and are big eaters. I'm afraid that they would bully the discus away at feeding time. Look for tankmates that can tolerate the same water conditions and will leave the discus as the dominant species in the tank.-Chuck>

Plant Issues for discus tank 8/22/07
Hello everyone at WWM,
My name's Peter Johnstone, I live in Melbourne Australia. Like many others, I've been (excitedly) reading for a couple months now after stumbling onto your site while looking for general aquarium advice. Your site is amazing and has helped increase my understanding immensely which is very much appreciated. I've got a few questions that I'll put together because I think they're probably related somehow. I've got a small, approx 90 L (22G) freshwater tropical tank which has been running very successfully for approx 4-5 years as a community tank with some basic plants. Here's the stats for my tank so far: Tapwater is very soft and ph neutral.
Approx 90L, under filter, with only a gravel substrate approx 3-5cm thick 18W plant-grow single tube (6 weeks old), adequate heating.
Temp is now 28-29 degree Celsius (changed from 24ish about 2 months ago)
pH 6.4
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 10/15
GH 5
KH 4
I have
7 cardinal tetras (? small amount of ich, non responsive to 2 weeks at 32degrees and Multicure but seem happy otherwise)
1 black ghost knight (growing healthily)
2 glass cat fish (very interactive)
1 pearl gourami (appears happy)
2 flying fox (doing their job)
2 bristle nose
Am planning on getting 2, 3-5cm discus in the near future once I've got a hold on everything.
I have the following plants with the attached problems. Any thoughts on the cause would be most appreciated.
4 various Anubias (edges of the leaves and new shoots being eaten/nipped off-added lettuce and zucchini which are eaten up daily with no changes to the plant state)
1 wisteria (happy)
2 Amazon swords (1 growing slowly, one has rotting roots which turn brown and translucent and rot off. Not sure why may be terminal)
some small old java ferns (very very slow growing)
java moss (not dying)
stag horn java fern (new growth turns brown and dies within 1-2 days for no apparent reason. Tiny new shoots still sprouting occasionally)
1 Bolbitis fern (only the rhizome left after it turned very dark green/brown and rotted away, 2 days after being in the tank from the shop)
3 pieces of drift wood.
Here's the history.
I'm aware that under filters are not great for plants, however the tank was originally given to me as is, and I've been learning more along the way. The plants were doing very well up until the end of 2006, with essentially no algae, when I went away for 2 weeks and left the tank in the care of my housemates. On return I had lost almost all of my plants due to an unknown reason- no problems with the fish. I've been learning more about the tank in an effort to get some discus soon and so have the current plants and testing kits as stated above. Since the big die off, I've never been able to get the plants to grow well again and I'm not sure why because nothing else has changed. I have a few remnants of the java fern which have very slowly regrown a couple of leaves off the rhizome root over the past 6-9 months however I bought 2 great specimens a couple months ago, only to have them both start rotting from the bottom up within two days of them being in the tank. 1 week later they were gone- and no the roots weren't buried in the gravel. Why will the old plants regrow slowly, but new ones of the same species die off so quickly? the Bolbitis died off within 2 days too. Not sure if its rhizome will survive. I've lost every type of crypt that I've tried to house with the leaves becoming transparent and flaccid -> rotting off. The rest of my plants are o.k. but non thriving like they once did when I had multiple flowering anubias. I have started using fertilizer pellets and some liquid fertilizer to help add nutrients about 2 weeks ago. Is it possible to over fertilise, because I think I initially put in too many pellets as my water levels blew out to high ammonia, nitrate and nitrite levels and the ph dropped within 4 days, which is rare as my tank is always very stable. I removed much of the pellets, multiple water changes and all's back to normal with no fish fatalities thankfully. So here's the questions.
As I'm looking towards getting discus, I've put the temperature up from approx 24 to 28 degrees in the last 2 months. Can this effect the plants I have or have attempted to have? My fish appear much more active and happy since the temp went up. All fish are growing nicely.
Am I likely to get good plant growth with my setup or is it flawed from the beginning with the under filter, and if so, why was I able to get good growth for the first few years?
Also, something is eating/nipping many of the anubias plant leaves and any new growth that does appear. I'm yet to witness the culprit after hrs of observation so I'm thinking it may be a nocturnal thing. I'm sure I have no hitchhiker snails. Any thoughts on who's to blame?
Are products such as black water extract likely to be of benefit to me and can you suggest any others that may help.
Any other thoughts/advice on the general setup would be most appreciated before I get the discus in. If all goes well for 6 months or so I'll probably invest in a nice 4*2*2 setup and redo everything properly, keeping the old tank for quarantine/breeding.
Again, any help/advice you can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks again for such a useful, entertaining and interesting site.
Cheers.
Pete J.
<Hello Peter. Your problem is insufficient light coupled with the wrong water chemistry. Lighting for shade-tolerant plants needs to be upwards of 1.5 Watts per gallon, and for most everything else at least 2-3 Watts per gallon. So, Java ferns and Java moss will want no less than 33 W of light in your tank, and the Amazon swords 44 W upwards. This is non-negotiable: while plants can adapt to quite a lot of things, light is something they can't do without. The type of light used makes a big difference, too. Lights optimised for terrestrial plants (e.g., Gro Lux) don't work well in aquaria because the red light doesn't penetrate water well. Instead you need something around the 5500 to 6500 Kelvin colour temperature. To human eyes, this will seem blue-white. Adding reflectors to the lights is a low cost way of getting the best from them and highly recommended. Second, the water chemistry. Relatively few plants like soft water, and many are highly intolerant of it. A lot of aquatic plants get at least some of the carbon used for photosynthesis from dissolved bicarbonate salts. Aim for a water hardness around "medium hard" on the GH and KH scales for the best results with a broad range of plants. If this is out of the question, then carefully select plants that tolerate soft water. Amazon swords -- despite the name -- include many common species (such as E. bleheri) that don't like soft water. And very few plants come from water that is completely soft in the way aquarists mean it when keeping blackwater fish like discus. If you look at those blackwater habitats, there is virtually no aquatic vegetation at all. As for the damage to the plants, when the plant leaves start to decay, they can become attractive to Loricariid catfish that would otherwise ignore healthy plants. I agree with you that trying to get rooted plants (like Cryptocorynes and Amazon swords) growing in a tank with an undergravel filter is a waste of time. They won't ever do well. But epiphytic plants, like Java moss and Anubias, which should NEVER be planted in the substrate, should do fine. Since you have a mind for discus, and ideal water for them too, you may decide to forget about plants. Plants are NOT part of the discus habitat in the wild: dead wood is what they swim around and lay their eggs on. Hope this helps, Neale>

Discus Fish Tank. Water Changes In A Soft Water Discus Tank – 07/25/07
Hello Crew, I am setting up a Discus/Planted tank. The tank is 60 gallons with a corner overflow, a 25 gallon sump, 2x175MH Lighting. I plan to let the tank run for at least a couple of weeks until the Co2 injection lowers and the pH to around 6.5 and the Water softening pillow has time to do it's thing. My question is: What is the best way to perform the water changes. I read that you do 80% changes a week. How could I do this with a sump and plant life in the tank? If I drain all that water with a python system, wouldn't the plant life be out of the water? If I use the python, connected directly to the faucet to fill back up the tank, wouldn't the temperature difference in the water shock the fish. I am confused by your stated method. I know you recommend putting Seachem's Prime before refilling but please clarify your recommended procedure. Thanks, Matt
< You need to balance the needs of the discus with the needs of the plants. Breeding pairs of discus in small tanks require numerous massive water changes with clean warm acidic water to remain healthy. Plants on the other hand require some light and nutrients in their water to flourish. In you situation I would recommend that you fill your tank with treated tap water and use Bio-Spira to get the biological filtration going. Add easy to grow plants like crypts, Anubias and java fern with some driftwood. Forget the water softening pillows and the CO2. Use a Fluorite type of substrate for the plants. Use domestically raised discus instead of wild fish. Heat the tank to 82 F and try to get your discus to eat Spectrum Discus Pellets. The pillows simply replace the calcium in the water with sodium. They don't get rid of it. If you add CO2 to hard water the calcium in the water will bind with the CO2 making a calcium carbonate. This will make the CO2 unavailable to the plants. Once all the calcium is tied up you have no alkalinity or buffering capacity in the water. Additional CO2 will convert the water to carbonic acid and could dangerously drop the pH very quickly. The overflow will quickly agitate the water and dissipate most of the excess CO2 gas. The plants will help remove any nitrates from the water so weekly water changes of 25% will probably do unless your tank is very overcrowded with fish.-Chuck>

Converting from r/o water to tap water in my discus aquarium-BIG pH difference! – 07/03/07
Hi guys. First, thank to all of you who have so graciously answered my previous questions. I have learned a LOT from reading on this website and from the experts here.
<Welcome>
I am very interested in converting from r/o water to tap water in my 55 gal discus aquarium. They need minerals, etc that they have not been getting from the r/o water,
<Mmm, good... Yes... some... all depends on a few factors... What your source water is "made of", how "wild" to cultured your Discus are...>
and I need to improve my water change method. Pouring r/o water into the tank by the gallon is really old now after 3 years in this hobby! I have had my discus for a year now, and all seem to be happy and healthy.
For my first mixed water change, I used 3 gal treated tap water plus 20 gal r/o in my 55 gal aquarium. I treated the tap water with Seachem Prime and aerated it in a bucket overnight using an airstone that I already have. I tested the water before using it. Nitrate and nitrite were zero. Ammonia was also zero, but I understand that the Prime could have affected that test. Here is what concerned me about the tap water: the pH was high-it read as high as my test kit measures, 8.8.
<Wow! Liquid rock!>
The pH in my tank is somewhere between 5 and 6, I believe. I do not know WHAT the pH actually is. My SMS122 controller seems to have malfunctioned. Even after replacing the probe, the reading it gives is too low for the fish to be surviving, much less be doing well, according to Neale (thank you Neale for the information). After doing the water change this weekend, the reading on the controller went from 4.1 to 7.0. Hard to believe that 3 gal of tap water plus 20 gal r/o could move the pH like that. What do you think?

Any recommendations or advice will be very gratefully received! I do not want to stress my fish during the transition. If you can recommend how to proceed from here, I would really appreciate it. What should I do about the pH and how slowly should I mix in the treated tap water?

I have read that treating the tap water with peat would soften it and lower the pH. I tried this early in my discus fishkeeping, and lost one small little guy the morning after adding a small amount of peat to the aquarium (may not have been related to the peat I guess). What I used was Scotts Sphagnum peat moss. The bag states 100% peat moss. I see no mention of any additives.
<Mmm... don't always state... better to either buy "aquarium use" material or even just an "extract" product really...>
My fish are great little buddies who have survived my novice care, equipment failures, and my mistakes for a year now! I want to keep it that way! Thanks again for any help.

Re: Bacterial Hemorrhagic Septicemia / fin and tail rot... Mmm, "Discus" H2O qual. - 7/4/07
Bob,
<SL>
Here are the results:
<Ah, good>
To 15 Gal RO water I added 1 tsp of RO right which brought the TDS to 110PPM. Then added 1 tsp baking soda which brought the TDS to 180PPM. Then waited until next day to measure Ph and it was 7.2.
<Right about right>
The water is mixed in a large trash can with wheels and is aerated and heated. GH and KH readings are zero and 3 d respectfully.
<Okay>
What puzzles me is that the GH test kit shows zero dGH.
<... is strange... the sodium bicarbonate and Kent product should elevate this... Would you try adding "quite" a bit to the test sample to see if this will register?>
(I used 10ml water in the test tube instead of the usual 5ml to see if I could get a half reading and it still turns green on contact and stays green.) Is the calcium carbonate/magnesium test important as long as the TDS is within range?
<Mmm... a bunch to say/state here... It "could" be important... The actual make-up of the dissolved solids can play havoc or heaven with plants, fishes, invertebrates... They all "Do" need alkaline earth materials/atoms (Ca, Mg...)>
I test the TDS with a meter, so it measures all dissolved substances.
Also, how do I lower the Ph back down to 6.8?

I have been using the phosphate buffers to do it up until now,

but they are the major contributor to my high TDS readings, not to mention the hair algae if I let the nitrates hit 40PPM.
<Ah, yes... As we state so often, do keep these under 20 ppm... the lower the better>
Ultimately I want to keep discus, but until I can learn to stabilize soft/acidic water conditions, I am afraid I would just kill them.
SL
<Actually... Again, I have a good deal of confidence in your obvious intelligence and attention to detail... And a working knowledge of just how tough Symphysodon (except for the occasional wild-caught ones on the market) actually are. I consider that you are well ready to take on Discus culture. Bob Fenner>

To the Discus Masters, sys. – 07/03/07
Heyyy everybody.
(Ugh. Hello.>
After years of salt water am going fresh. Discus that is. Well if that's possible. I want to set up a 29 gallon tank and I was wondering how I could stock it. I've read one discus is bad by itself and they are no good in pairs. Is this true.? Would three be overstocking??? Also, if possible, I would like to add tetras. Please email me back on what you suggest on stocking the tank with.? Thank you to everybody at this site, its helped me a lot and you better believe I do give a lot of referrals to you.
<Tank-bred discus are surprisingly easy to look after. While you want to avoid very hard and alkaline water, they will adapt to pretty much anything up to slightly alkaline (pH 7.5) and moderately hard water (~10 dH) just fine. In fact there's a good argument for maintaining moderately hard water because of the resulting stability in water chemistry. Far, far more important is water quality. Large, regular water changes are the order of the day with discus. A 29 gallon tank is probably a bit small for anything other than a breeding pair. You really want something around the 55+ gallon mark to have a school of 6 specimens. Choosing tankmates for Discus isn't difficult though a lot of people prefer not to. Personally, I'd recommend hatchetfish for the surface (to act as dither fish) and Corydoras or better still Brochis spp. for the bottom. Many Loricariidae catfish work well (though I'd avoid Otocinclus because of their semi-parasitic behaviour). Because Discus need very high temperatures, avoid anything subtropical (like peppered Corydoras) or anything borderline-tropical (like red phantom tetras or White Cloud Mountain minnows). Some folks keep them with Clown loaches and pearl gouramis; although not authentic, the combo seems to work well. Just avoid anything potentially nippy (like Black Widow tetras) or aggressive (like angelfish or blue gouramis). Bob's written a great Discus primer here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/discusfish.htm .>
:-)
<Er, okay. Good bye. Neale.>

R/O Water and Discus 6/30/07
Hi crew!
<Hi, Pufferpunk here>
I have used only r/o water in my freshwater discus tank for a year now.
<Not necessary. Most discus nowadays are tank bred, in regular tap water. I do 90% weekly water changes with tap water, conditioned with Seachem's Prime.>
Although the fish appear to be fine, I realize that I have failed to add back in minerals and trace elements that the fish need. My choices appear to be either reconstitute the r/o water or convert to tap water and treat it prior to adding it to the aquarium. Therefore, I am interested in converting to tap water, very slowly of course. I will treat my tap water with Seachem Prime,
<Aha! Took the words right out of my mouth!>
as is recommended on this site and aerate it in a storage container for a couple of days using a powerhead.
<Not necessary. I just drain, adjust the temp & fill, after adding Prime to the tank.>
My question is this: how gradually would you recommend adding
in the treated tap water? A guy at the LFS recommended 10-15% treated tap water to begin with, then increase tap water about that much w/each water change. In addition to increasing the TDS,
<TDS has no effect on FW/SW fish, unless your tap water contains ammonia, nitrites or nitrates.><<What? No! RMF>>
it should also effect the pH in the tank, which is less than 6 and has been for a while. I do not know exactly what the pH is because my SMS122 pH controller appears to have failed and my freshwater test kit only measures down to pH 6. If I do weekly water changes of approx 40% like I am currently doing, would this result in too much change too fast? Any advice will be
gratefully received!!

I have purchased a Rubbermaid Brute 44gal trash can with top, and one of those cool dollies to roll it to my tank! I plan to pump the treated water into the tank using the powerhead. I am very excited about improving my water change method and giving my fish better water!
<Make your improvements even easier by just using a Python to drain & fill right from the tap. Can't be much easier than that.>
Thanks for all the great advice on this site!!! You guys are the best!
<Hey, thanks a lot! We try...>
P.S. Do you have any recommendations for the powerhead? I will only need to pump from the storage container into the aquarium, so I guess the head would be less than 5 feet. I plan to connect pvc pipe with a couple of elbows to the end of my hose so I can just hang it on the lip of the tank and let it fill.
<Keep it simple! (Unless you are planning a reef tank in the future.)>
Thanks again and I hope you all have a great Independence Day!
<Happy 4th to you too! ~PP>

Planted Discus Tank, gear 6/24/07
Hi crew! First, allow me to thank all of the experts who participate in this website. It is a wonderful resource. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience.
<Welcome!>
This is my first post to this website. I have spent numerous hours reading here, so please also excuse if my questions have been addressed elsewhere on your site. Also, please excuse the length and the variety of questions regarding both livestock and tank setup. I have attempted to give you enough information so that you won't have to ask a lot of questions before you can answer my questions.
<Okay>
My goal is to have a beautiful planted discus tank (thank you Alesia Benedict-you are an inspiration to me!) One year ago, I embarked on the adventure to accomplish exactly that. After researching discus for several months, I decided to take the plunge. I sold my other livestock to the LFS and ordered my discus. When I purchased them, I did not know how many would survive my novice care, and I probably purchased more than I should have for the size tank I have. I seem to have done fine keeping them for the past year-I agree that they are not as difficult to keep as some people believe. In this time, my fish have grown from about 2.5” to between 4.5-5” for the larger ones (I have 2 runts I guess-they are about 3” and have not grown noticeably in many months.)
As far as the plants go however, I have not been successful with them.
<Mmmm, wonder why?>
I am currently planning to upgrade from my 55 gallon to a 90 gallon tank. My goals for this upgrade are: first, to give my fish more room in order to increase their comfort and hopefully allow them to grow larger.
<Mmm, maybe you can/could keep the smaller tank going to try and boost the growth of the "runts"?>
Second goal: to slowly add some plants that should thrive in the higher temperature and lower pH. Third goal: to add some Cardinal Tetras and maybe Bristlenose Plecos too, after the new tank has been up and running for a while and the discus are settled in. Is this too much stock for a 90 gal?
<Nope>
If not, how many Cardinals and Bristlenose would you recommend adding?
<A dozen or more Cardinals... 4,5 Bristlenose>
I am researching the items that will be needed for the new tank. Of course, I would like to use everything that I can from the old tank in order to save $. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated! Here is my current setup:
Tank: 55gal All-Glass
Lighting: Coralife Freshwater Aqualight 48”, 4x65W Power Compact Strip
Light w/ Adjustable Mount Legs **want to add CoraLife AquaLight power center $39.99 @ BigAl's
<This won't be much light on a 90... both it and the 55 are relatively deep>
Filtration: Eheim Pro II 2026 Canister Filter **need more EHFISYNTH white filter pads (EH2616265) $8.79 for a box of 3 @ www.MarineDepot.com
<A good unit... you may want to supplement/complement this with a large/r hang on power filter... Maybe a Hagen product>
Heating: AquaMedic 250W Titanium Heater, AquaMedic BioTherm Temperature Controller **need to get 500W heater for new Aquariu-look at Finnex FNX500D-it has overheat protection feature $42.39 @ www.aquariumpros.com
CO2: Milwaukee SMS122 pH Controller, Tygon Tubing, Swagelok B-SS4 Needle Valve, Double-Gage CO2 Regulator, M-Ventil Solenoid Valve, 5lb CO2 Cylinder, Eheim CO2 Diffuser
Substrate: Fluorite *need to buy more for new tank: Eco Complete or Fluorite?
<Both good products... I use Fluorite>
Plants: I have tried a variety of FW plants with little success over
time. Obviously, they were not good choices for the application
Currently, I have only one plant that has managed to survive the tank
conditions, a fairly large Anubias Barteri.
<Mmm, do read on WWM, elsewhere re the use of soils in the gravel/substrate... a great boon here>
Livestock: Eight discus, ranging in size from 3” to 4.5-5”.
<Again, I'd move six...>
Notes and questions about new setup:
a) Lighting: I will be able to use my current lighting with the new tank.
Both tanks are 48” long.
<There is a need for more intensity...>
b) Filtration: My current filter is rated up to 92 gallons; do you think it will provide sufficient filtration for the new tank or would you suggest upgrading the filter?

c) Heating: I will need to purchase a 500W heater for the new tank. I am looking at the Finnex FNX500D, which has overheat protection feature that shuts the heater off if tank temp reaches 92°. This sounds like a very good safety feature, especially considering my experience with the Won Brothers temperature controller. I have had two failures of the temperature sensor on the Won controller, and the last time this happened, the tank temperature soared to the mid 90's before I discovered it (my poor fish!) NO MORE WON BROTHERS! Does anybody have any experience with the Finnex controller? Any other suggestions?
<Seem to be fine units>
d)C02: I should be able to use all of my current equipment in the new tank.
<Yes, agreed>
e) Substrate: I will need to purchase more substrate for the new tank, which is 5” deeper than my current tank. I could (1) add more Fluorite to what I already have, or (2) mix my Fluorite with something else like Eco Complete, or (3) go to a completely different substrate. Any suggestions?
<See WWM re... I'd add a soil to the lower layer...>
It would be great if cleaning, moving plants, etc. in the new tank did not create a big cloud for the fish to have to try to breathe in, as it does now.
<Can be "blind-potted" if this is your choice>
And finally, regarding water quality for my discus: they have lived in R/O only water for a year now.
<Mmm, need to have... Oh, I see you address this below>
I am sorry to say that after all of my research I somehow overlooked the importance of adding back minerals and trace elements that the fish need. <embarrassed> Should I now begin treating the water to introduce trace minerals, etc?
<Yes...>
Do you recommend any particular products for this and would you just follow the manufacturers directions?
<Likely just blending in some tap/source water>
Aside from reconstituting the R/O water, I have read that it is desirable to "age" it before adding it to the aquarium, in order to increase oxygenation. How would one “age” a large quantity of the conditioned water prior to adding it to the tank?
<Leave in a designated trashcan or such, aerated, heated, near the tank for ease of movement>
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read such a lengthy email. I
look forward to your reply. Any information will be GREATLY appreciated!
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Water Changes for Discus 5/10/07
<Hi Christa, Jeni/Pufferpunk here.>
I have a stupid question, sorry to bother you but I am disabled and rarely get out, so I have to use this thing.
<LOL, I use this "thing" (the Internet) for all my research.>
I have a 80gal tank with discus. I recently purchased the fill/drain kit that hooks to the kitchen faucet.

How can I treat the water so that it doesn't hurt my fish? I use
Aqua Safe and pH 6.5 on them. I also use SeaChem discus buffer. Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated.
<I do 90% weekly water changes on my discus tank. All I add is Seachem's Prime, before I fill the tank. Buffers & pH adjusters are not necessary, as the majority of discus on the market today are not wild-caught. They are bred in the same water that comes out of your tap. ~PP>>
Thanks, Christa
Have a great Day!

Hole in the Head on Discus/plant questions 4/17/04
Hi Crew,
<Hi Eric , Pufferpunk here>
Thanks for your past help and running a great site.
<You're very welcome!>
I am hoping you can give me some advice with this issue. I have a 72 gallon FW heavily planted tank housing 26 cardinal tetras, 1 Ram, 2 Otos, and 3 captive bred discus (about 3” lengthwise). All were added over the space of a few months, quarantined and prophylactically treated (I have to look up the protocol if you it is needed) for 2-4 weeks. The filter is a Aquaclear 110 running with Zeolite, peat moss in pantyhose, carbon and sponge.

Everything is changed about once a month and the sponge is cut in half so only half is changed at a time. The heater is not on since the ambient temp plus heat from the lamps (220w PC run for 2 bulbs on 12 hrs/ the other two only on for 6) keeps the water between 76 and 78 deg F (cooler end at night).
<Discus need to be kept at much higher temps: 84-86 degrees.>
There are a bunch of Malaysian trumpet snails and some type of small snail that looks more typical and hitchhiked on plants (I don’t mind since they leave my plants alone as long as I drop in some Spirulina every now and then). I usually try to do a 20-25% water change every two weeks but with a new baby its hard.
<Discus need 90% weekly water changes. Discus breeders do 100% daily!>
Since the tank is lightly stocked and heavily planted the parameters stay good anyways. My latest params are (nighttime) – pH 6.6, total Ammonia – 0, KH – 3 dKH, 6 dGH, nitrates – 0, nitrites -0, phosphates 1 mg/L. I dose Seachem Excel and Flourish once a week and add Seachem Acid buffer at water changes (tap water here is soft, but the Tahitian Moon sand contrary to their statements raised my pH and hardness).
<Parameters sound good but there are things we can't test for in our tanks. Tank-raised discus don't need all those pH lowering additives. They are born into normal tap water. I use none of this & only add Prime during water changes. Carbon really isn't necessary either. I wonder if you are getting pH swings?>
Now here are my questions:
One of discus (they were purchased in early December and quarantined for 3-4 weeks) has developed what I think is Hole in the Head. At first it looked like an enlarged nare but now I see that it has enlarged further and deepened. It doesn’t exhibit any other signs or symptoms that I am aware of. It eats fine (I feed a mixture of live blackworms, fruit flies, flakes, frozen assortment, which is thawed under running water first) and pellets and still keeps its rank in the pecking order. I have read on your site and others that some think that HITH is caused by poor water quality and others think it is a bacterial infection (I believe that it is probably a combination, no?).
<Actually a parasite. Poor water conditions lower a fish's immune system, making it more susceptible to disease.>
I have read all kinds of treatment suggestions from Maracyn to Melafix (which I doubt has any value).
<I swear by Melafix for minor bacterial problems, scratches, small wounds & frayed fins. Definitely helps quicken the healing, along with stronger meds for worse problems. HITH is a parasite--flagellate protozoa, called Hexamita. Treatment: Adding a chemical to kill the Hexamita (Flubendazole, eSHa - Hexamita, Waterlife - OCTOZIN, Seachem - Metronidazole CLOUT, Fluke-Tabs, Aquatronics - Hex-a-mit, etc.) and secondary bacterial infection (Melafix).>
I just did a water change and pruned out a bunch of overgrown Java moss and shook out some of the rest and a bunch of sediment came out but my params were fine before the water change so I don’t know if that is the problem. Anyway, my dilemma is do I just sit and watch right now?
<Could get worse.>
Do I quarantine and treat?
<I'd treat the whole tank. Parasites can be contagious. Anti-parasitic meds & Melafix will not harm your biological filtration.>
I am afraid of stressing the fish out but on the other hand, I can't treat the whole tank and anyways none of the other fish are exhibiting any problems. Do I add some kind of vitamin supplement to its food (I saw that recommended here)? If so, how and what do I add?
<I soak all my fish's foods (even live blackworms) with Zoe vitamins. A lot of folks believe this parasite comes from feeding live foods, especially live worms. I have been feeding live worms to all my fish for years but I check the batch at the LFS, before it's bagged up. If there are a lot of dead worms, I don't buy them. I rinse well in a brine shrimp net, add 1/4" water & a few flakes, along with some drops of vitamins & let sit overnight in the refrigerator. The next day, I pour into the net again & throw out any dead worms on the bottom of the container. I do this daily.>
I really put a lot into this tank and the fish and everything looks beautiful. It is my first attempt at discus and I would hate to lose this fish. I am looking forward to your advice.
<There is nothing more beautiful & peaceful than a planted discus tank. ~PP>
Sincerely, Eric
New York City

Adding to one of yesterday's answers, Discus hlth., sys. 4/19/07
Hello there Crew,
<Nicole>
I hope you don't mind, but I feel compelled to add to an answer. It's "Hole in the Head on Discus/plant questions 4/17/04" which was answered very adeptly by Pufferpunk.
<Please do>
For Eric's discus, perhaps he could try medicated flakes such as those offered by flguppiesplus? Here's a link to flakes containing Metronidazole:
http://flguppiesplus.safeshopper.com/256/cat256.htm?5
<Thank you for this lead, link>
I also wondered why Eric would have Zeolite for chemical filtration in his tank, instead of activated carbon or a carbon resin blend.
<Me too>
Probably unrelated to the HLLE his discus are experiencing, but I would still switch out that Zeolite for a bag of Chemi-Pure, if it were my setup. My thoughts on Zeolite, Ammo Chips, etc. were that these interfered with the nitrifying bacteria - however, I notice some folks use these instead of, or along with, carbon.
Your thoughts? Thanks for listening!
Nicole

Plants for Discus and Angel Fish – 4/10/07
I have a 60gal freshwater aquarium with 2 Discus and 2 Angel fish in it I would like to know if I should use artificial plants or real plants...
<Aquatic plants aren't part of the normal discus (or angelfish) habitat: these fish live in the "flooded forest" where nutrient poor waters wash around sunken wood and the trunks of huge trees. The fish live hidden among the wood, and when pairing off, guard bits of wood on which they lay their eggs. So by all means use real or plastic plants if you wish, but the fish don't care. They'd sooner have nice tall bits of real/artificial wood that they can explore, guard, or school around. Also bear in mind not all common aquarium plants enjoy soft/acid water. Vallisneria spiralis and the common Amazon sword Echinodorus bleheri for example both like neutral to basic, moderately hard water.>
...also if it is a good idea to use volcanic rock in it as decor.
<Volcanic rock -- if you mean artificial lava rock rather than actual pumice -- does acidify the water. This is the porous, reddish-brown "rock", right? While harmless enough in a tank with a basic pH and lots of hardness, in a soft water discus tank I'd personally be vary wary of using it. At least, not without trying a little first, and monitoring the pH for a few weeks before buying any more.>
I do not want the fish to get hurt on the rock.
<They shouldn't.>
I would also like to know how many of these fish I can put in it if I was to add other fish and what kind of fish I can add with them and how many.
<Discus, and to a slightly lesser degree angels, need good water quality. Understocking is the easiest way to get this. Also, once they mature, angels especially become very territorial, and will hold an area about 60-90 cm in diameter, vigorously pushing away any conspecifics. So while you can probably house half a dozen of either fish in a 60 gallon tank, the question is whether you want to and whether the fish will put up with that once mature. As for tankmates, both angels and discus appreciate slightly higher than average temperatures. Lace gouramis and moonlight gouramis can work well though both are a bit large. Clown loaches also work well, but again, rather large. Small tetras (e.g. Neons) become angelfish food so not recommended. Bleeding heart tetras, silver hatchetfish, African Glowlight tetras, and other non-nippy characins of this size would work well. Warm-water catfish include Brochis spp., Bristlenose plecs, and non-subtropical Corydoras (i.e., not bronze or peppered Corys). Very small Suckermouth cats, like Otocinclus spp., can attack the sides of these slow moving fish to eat the mucus, so avoid. Likewise aggressive loaches and cichlids will often terrorize them. All this said, discus are perhaps best kept alone, simply because it makes maintaining water quality good so much easier.>
George
<Cheers, Neale>

Discus In A Planted Tank 1/28/07
Hey there after lots of research and countless hours. My answer was still unclear. Now the question. do I need a CO2 system for a fish and heavily planted tank?
< The plants will do better with some CO2 in the water. Some stem plants like frill usually need CO2 to thrive. Sword plants and Cryptocorynes usually don't require CO2.>
Is this tank ready for discus?
< Discus can live in a bare tank to one that is heavily planted. Discus do not like to be stressed. I would recommend that you wait until you tank is fairly well set up before adding discus. If you are going to add plants after they are in and established, then I would work in small areas over time so not to disturb the tank too much.>
I am looking to make an Amazon biotope.
< These are very pretty tanks, except that in the Amazon the warm acidic water is so poor in nutrients that there are very few aquatic plants.>
Right now I am running a 75 gallon FW. The substrate is 135 lb.s. fluorite 4 in. thick all around and 6 medium driftwood pieces some plants 3 Amazon swords
2 canister filters Eheim pro 2128 thermo and Rena xp3. temp is about 30.6 C. or 85 F.

pH.5.7 kH 3 gH 1, Peat is being used in one filter for its added benefits.
Fish
20 neon tetra
10 glow light tetra
5 rasboras
1 king tiger Pleco L 065
The tank is month old, I do 2 water changes a week with RO/DI water 30 gallon
each time. I treat the RO water with equilibrium powder form Kent Zoe, Discus Trace
< Sounds like a great tank. I would recommend adding Bio-Spira from Marineland to make sure your tank has all the biological bacteria established and you don't get any spikes.-Chuck>

Discus and Tiger Barbs 1/20/07
<Hi Byron, Pufferpunk here>
I have a lightly planted Juwel Record 70 (70litre = 18 gallons, I think). I currently have 6 small tiger barbs which I recently introduced but I would really like to have 2 turquoise discus, 2 sunset dwarf gouramis, some Dalmatian mollies, maybe some swordtails, guppies and small Corydoras catfish.
<Boy, your dreams are definitely bigger than your tank!>
I will upgrade to a larger tank as they grow but my question is about the compatibility of these fish species. Will I have to take the tiger barbs back, are they too 'nippy'?
<Definitely. Discus enjoy a nice, peaceful tank.>
If this is a complicated combination of species could you give me some options, as to which species I have mentioned will live together happily?
<Stick with your above choices, without the discus. They are extremely difficult fish to keep, needing huge weekly water changes (90%). A larger tank will be necessary to keep these fish happy.
As all these responses are posted in our FAQs, please capitalize "I", when used as a pronoun. I have done this for you this time. ~PP>
Thank you, Byron Dunleavy.

Discus In Hot Water 1/5/07
Thank you Chuck, By increasing water temp to 82, did you mean 92? I normally keep the temp at 86 but in the hospital tank I've got it set to about 92 - should I cool it? Michaela
< At those water temps there is not much dissolved oxygen in the water and your fish will be stressed to get enough oxygen to breath. I would cool it down to 82 F.-Chuck>

Re: Attn: Jorie Re: Follow-up queries to planted discus aquarium topic 1/4/07
Hello and Happy New Year, Mike - Jorie from WWM here. I was just curious how your newly planted discus tank was faring? My 29 gal. BW is currently at 1.004 SG (almost to 1.005 - I've been doing it very slowly for the plants' sake), and currently houses 1 juvie molly (female) and some ghost shrimp. Thought I'd send you a picture just for fun...and would love to see how your tank is doing. You and I started our respective tank's "journeys" at about the same time, so I just wanted to see how things were going. For me, knock on wood, all is well. I've got 5 bumblebee gobies in a 10 gal. QT tank; as soon as the main tank's SG reaches 1.005, they will be transferred, and I will acquire either a pair of orange chromides or a figure 8 puffer for the QT - whichever I can locate first around here.
I'd love to see, hear about your tank...
Best regards,
Jorie>

Nitrates in a Discus tank. 12/26/06
Hi Crew,
<Ari>
 My discus grow-out tank is a 125 gallon w/ all-glass megasump model 4 below. My nitrates are too high (can be over 40ppm depending on day of week) probably from lots of high-protein foods. I do a lot of water changes, but wonder if I should adjust my setup to help deal with nitrates.
<A good idea>
 It is a heavily planted tank with plenty of stem plants, swords and Glossostigma, Riccia, and java moss ground cover. Have pressurize co2, 500watts of lights on tank, reverse photoperiod an 50 watts below, 2-4 inches of Fluorite main tank with undergravel cable heater, about 4 inches of freshwater miracle mud in sump, I left bio-balls in the sump. I also just added water lettuce and hyacinth to sump (read an article on this website suggesting this).
<Mmm, these last two re really too cold-water plants to be used here... I'd try other tropical species, lighting here... on a differing, though over-lapping light cycle with the main tank>
 I don't vacuum substrate because of ground cover plants. Do you have any suggestions to help me lower nitrates besides cutting down feeding, and more specifically, do you think I should a) rip of ground cover so that I can siphon gravel better,

b) should I add more Fluorite, miracle mud, or another type of substrate and

d) should I remove bio-balls?
<Yes...>
 All advice is very much appreciated. - Very truly yours, Ari.
<And in the meanwhile "kick up", increase the frequency, amount of water changed... daily if need be. Bob Fenner>

Planted Discus Tank... filtration/circulation 12/12/06
Hi Crew!
<Mike>
I'm in the process of setting up a moderately planted 100 gallon discus tank.
<Some fun!>
About the last bit of research I need to complete before adding water has to do with filtration.
I'm planning on using canister filters for filtration, but am not quite sure how to balance the discus' preference for reasonably calm waters with their filtration needs and the plants needs for some current to facilitate biological processes.
<Easy to do... using the spray bars for the returns... near the surface is best... at one end or both>
My original thought was to use two Eheim Professional II, model 2126. They are rated at 250 gallons/hour for a combined total of 500 gallons/hour.

Couple of questions:
What is a reasonable water turnover rate given my somewhat contradictory considerations?
<This, these will be fine... not as vigorous a movement per unit time as you might think, consider>
Assuming no additional sources of current in the tank, would the two Eheims be too much? Too little?
<IMO/E right about right>
I really want to get this right from the onset and appreciate your assistance.
Happy Holidays,
Mike
<And to you and yours. At the near-surface for the discharges... Bob Fenner>

Discus in the smaller tank. - 11/02/06
Dear WWM crew
<Ben>
 I have two small discus in my 125 ltr think that's around 28g.
<Yes>
I was going to add them into my large 450ltr tank but the highest I can raise the water temp is 26 and being the lowest of there heat tolerance do not think it would be
wise to add to my current stocking of a goldie Plec, para Plec, peppermint Pleco, 2 limas and 4 Severums. Due to this am now thinking of adding them to my
125. if its possible what sort of tankmates could I add that can deal with 28 to 29 with the discus.
<Some peaceful, smaller fishes... best from the same sort of environmental area/niche... soft, acidic water of high temp... Perhaps some small Callichthyid Cats, Characoids, dwarf Cichlids... but even by themselves this volume will be too small in a short while. Bob Fenner>
Best Regards Ben

Planted Discus Aquarium 10/24/06
Greetings WWM Crew,
<Hello there>
I'm finishing up my last bit of research before setting up a planted discus aquarium and am hoping you might have a few minutes to comment on my proposed equipment/stocking levels.
<I'll sure try! Have immersed myself in planted tank research over the past several weeks, as I just set up a 29 gal. planted tank that will soon be converted from FW to BW.>
Aquarium: 100 gallon; glass; 18"w x 60"l x 25"t. Back has been coated with a textured spray paint to create a darkish, granite-like appearance.
<Sounds nice - will definitely minimize you having to see yucky algae!!>
Filtration: (2) Eheim Pro II with integrated heater, model 2126. This will provide a (nominal) 500 gph. Filters to use standard Eheim recommended media plus granulated peat (to acidify and soften the water).
<Filtration sounds sufficient and water quality should be fine after being run over the peat.>
I like to double up on critical equipment such as filters and heaters for safety/reliability.
<That's a great idea!>
Cleaning filters in rotation also makes it easier to maintain the biological balance with a minimum of disturbance. Does this sound appropriate/sufficient?
<Absolutely! You've done excellent research and I honestly can't suggest anything better that what you propose!>
Substrate: Approximately 100 pounds of Fluorite which will provide
about 2" of depth covered by 100 pounds of small grain (@ 1mm) gravel providing an additional 1" of depth.
<My research has suggested that a minimum of 3" Fluorite or Eco-Complete is required for best plant health. Just used a bit over 3" of the latter in my tank. The two products are very similar, but I prefer the black color of the Eco-Complete to the reddish/rust-colored Fluorite. Also, be aware that Fluorite requires *a lot* of rinsing to get all the dust off...Eco-Complete comes packed in H20 and doesn't need to be rinsed. Just a matter of preference, though, as both are equivalent in quality, from what I've read/experienced.>
Lighting: Supplied by a power compact retro-fit assembly. Contains (6) 55 watt straight pin bulbs arranged in 3 rows of 2. The rows closest to the front and back of the aquarium are positioned closer to the ends of the tank than center. The middle row is offset closer to center. The middle row is wired separately from the other two. I intend to use this to create a dawn/dusk cycle before/after the other lights come on/off.
<I'm trying to figure out the WPG per your description, but honestly can't quite picture where all these bulbs are. In any case, you are likely providing 2.5-3 watts per gallon at a minimum - you should be able to do 'bright light" requiring plants. Check out Peter Hiscock's Encyclopedia of Planted Aquaria for info. on all sorts of plants - great book! Also, in my recent planted tank research, I've read that a "siesta schedule" for lighting can help minimize algae...one article I read suggested an 5 hours on, 2 hours off, then 5 on again schedule. But, this was specifically addressing brackish tanks. I have heard "siesta schedules" on freshwater tanks are beneficial also, but don't know exactly what time periods to propose to you. This may also be covered in the Peter Hiscock book. Otherwise, your plan sounds great and your tank will likely be beautiful!>
An LED "lunar light" supplied by Drs. Foster and Smith will provide a post-dusk nightlight.
<Very nice.>
I'm considering using Coralife bulbs, (4) 6700k
and (2) actinic (in the middle row). This would provide an easier
dawn/dusk transition than using all 6700Ks and a help to draw the eye in to the dimmer center of the tank (creating a sense of depth). Thoughts?
<You absolutely can use the 6,700k and/or actinic (blue) for freshwater plant growth. I personally have been using 10,000k, just for a crisper effect. Your point re: an easier "transition" is well taken, though, and makes perfect sense. Again, I think this boils down to a personal choice based on aesthetics.>
Target water temperature: 82-84 degrees
<Although the discus likely *very* warm water, I'd suggest targeting more towards 82 (even 80 or 81) with the tetras and Corys...obviously, stability is most important, but you've got that covered with your equipment (and backup equipment!).>
Water: Out of the tap in the San Fernando Valley of Southern CA, water is both hard and alkaline - not great for my intended livestock, but I'm hoping that the peat and domestic-bred specimens will make this less of a concern.
<You may want to look into a RO/DI unit (reverse osmosis/de-ionization unit). Yes, the peat will soften your water, but with the RO/DI, you'll start with water with a neutral pH of 5.0. Easier to go up than down in many cases. There are necessary elements to add back, and I know there are specific products for discus. I myself use a combination of Aquarium Pharmaceutical's Electro-Right and pH Adjust, but the latter brings my pH to 7.0 - I don't keep discus. I can't recommend a particular discus water supplement, but I know they are out there. Kent makes good quality products, as does Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, in my experience.>
Fish: I will most likely stock immature specimens, but please evaluate based on mature size. Note: I am not interested in breeding.
Discus - 5
Cory cat (Corydoras nanus) - 5
Silvertip tetra (Hasemania nana) - 25
Cardinal tetra (Paracheirodon axelrodi) - 50
If space permits, I would also consider adding a small school of
hatchetfish such as Carnegiella strigata. Thoughts?
<The combination of fish is fine, but I wouldn't suggest quite so many tetras...even though they are small, 75 is a lot...>
Plants: A moderately dense variety of Echinodorus, Anubias,
Cryptocoryne, Rotala species and java fern. My thought is to position the Echinodorus, Anubias and Rotala under the brighter lights at the ends of the tank and place the crypts and java fern in the dimmer center.
<OK - as mentioned before, though, you have enough light to have some higher light requirement specimens. See Peter Hiscock's book. You could likely add some red-leaved plants, or even some filamentous leaved ones...>
CO2: I'd like to avoid having to supplement CO2, but am concerned that with the amount of light energy and iron in the Fluorite, CO2 may be the limiting factor for plant development. Do you think I can do without it?
<Again, I am not sure, only because I can't quite figure out how to calculate your WPG based on the set-up you describe. I'd recommend asking the light manufacturer to help you determine the actual wattage per gallon...if it's 3.0 or over, you will almost certainly need a CO2 unit. I myself have not used them, but am considering adding one (it's on my Xmas list!)
If not, AquariumPlants.com has an attractive tank/regulator/pH monitor and probe package that looks pretty good. In your experience is this a reputable firm?
<YES! I love www.aquariumplants.com. In fact, they put their telephone number on their webpage and I highly recommend calling and speaking to Mark, the owner - he is very friendly and knowledgeable. He will undoubtedly recommend a CO2 unit (and, for what it's worth, I will likely be getting either this or a JBJ unit - need to research further), as he's suggested one for my barely 2.5 WPG tank. See how it goes. Also, there is a liquid carbon product by Excel Flourish - not as good as a CO2 unit, but better than nothing. You could use this in the mean time. If you find a ton of algae growing, then the answer will likely be injecting CO2...>
How do the Milwaukee ph monitor/probes stack up to other similarly priced units?
<Very good quality - we use and like these.>
Last question: It's a long shot, but would you happen to be able to refer me to a reputable LFS in Southern CA's San Fernando Valley? I haven't been able to find one I consider reliable.
<Sadly, that I can't help you with - I live in Chicagoland. Two options - e-mail Bob Fenner or Sabrina Fullhart or the WWM Crew directly (use this same e-mail address, but just include an "attn" line) and/or take a look at the forums on www.wetwebmedia.com. There's a lot of folks from CA, and this may have been addressed in the area entitled "LFSs" - if it hasn't, you are certainly welcome to create a new thread and ask!>
Thanks very much for your input and for the site. It is a fantastic resource I reference on a daily basis. Please keep up the great work!
<Thanks for the well-thought-out question - it is so wonderful to talk with knowledgeable, caring folks who have done their homework!>
Regards,
Mike Fodrea
<Cheers to you - Jorie.>
<P.S. If you end up getting the CO2 unit from www.aquariumplants.com, would you kindly let me know how you like it? I am very seriously considering getting the same unit myself, and would love your opinion, if you get one first! THANKS!!>

Follow-up queries to planted discus aquarium topic 10/26/06
Jorie,
<Mike>
Thank you very much for your quick and helpful comments. I sincerely appreciate your time and expertise.
<My pleasure. It's always a treat to answer queries from people who care/have done research, etc.>
My original email and your response are attached below. A couple of follow up questions if I may...?
<Of course!>
Thanks for the tip regarding substrate depth. If I need to add more, is there any reason why I couldn't mix Fluorite and Eco-Complete?
<You know, I think you could, *but* the Eco-Complete makes a point of marketing itself as containing two different sizes of substrate, and able to "stratify" itself in the aquarium. I'm not sure if mixing Fluorite with it would alter this. (Plus, that could just be a marketing ploy - at least that's what my cynical side says! The other concern (at least for me, with my OCD!) would be aesthetic...you'd have two completely different colors being mixed. If you're OK with that (and who knows, to each his/her own - perhaps some like this?), I'd say go for it. The products are very similar in reality, so there shouldn't be too much of an issue there...>
Am I correct is assuming the bacteria in the Eco-Complete would jump start the cycling process and preclude the need for a product such as Bio-Spira?
<Well, I think that's the theory behind the entire Carib-Sea line of substrate, incl. the marine "live sand" bags. To be honest, I've never bought this theory, though, and just continue to cycle the old-fashioned fishless way - right now, I'm just feeding my fishless, plant-only tank a couple of pellets each evening to establish the nitrogen cycle.>
My estimates of WPG are in line with yours. It is a somewhat odd configuration and I can understand the challenge in picturing it.
Perhaps the following will clarify. The solid lines represent the front and back of the tank and the dashed lines represent the bulbs. Does this alter your assessment regarding the tank being "bright light" plant eligible?

Lowering pH for Discus 9/25/06
Hello Guys,
<Hi Eric, Pufferpunk here>
Pls ignore the earlier email, have some typos. Thank you.
<Thanks for the retype.>
Need some help here: I have a 180G tank (with sump) and my PH was rather unstable. It kept on increasing and at one point, it was as high as 7.8-7.9. My tap water is hard pH 7.5. I only have ceramic rings and bio-balls (wet dry) for biological filtration (activated carbon too) and some wool for mechanical filtration in the sump. As far as I am aware, I do not have anything else that may cause the pH to go up.
KH is 2.5
Ammonia is 0
Nitrite is < 0.3mg/l
Nitrate parameter is <50.
<Nitrites should always be 0, nitrates <20.>
Anyway, was kind of worried about the high pH, so I went out and got myself a pH controller (+CO2 tank w/ solenoid valve). With that in place, I was able to drive down the PH to about 6.6 and
maintain it at that range(+ - 0.1 PH swing). I think is rather all right for discus (correct me if I am wrong here).
<Most of the discus available in the aquarium trade are tank-bread in tap water. It's not necessary to adjust the pH lower than neutral.>
When the pH controller activates the CO2 tank (via solenoid valve), it release the CO2 into the water and it is able to bring down pH by 0.1 to about 6.5 in 3minutes (through a DIY recirculated diffuser). It takes about 25minutes for the PH to shift back to 6.6 before the pH controller kicks in again.
My question is whether the frequent PH swing is something I need to be worried off?
<PH swing is more stressful then a higher, steady pH. ~PP>
PH Controller kicks in @ 6.6
Drives down PH to 6.5 in 3minutes
Takes about 25 minutes for it to reach 6.6
And this cycle repeat itself again.
<Seems unnecessary to me. More large, frequent water changes with tap water (I do 80% weekly) should keep it steady. ~PP>
Thank you.
Regards, Eric

Re: Small pH Fluctuations in Discus Tank 9/26/06
Hi PP,
Thanks for the replies. I am aware that tank bred discus are probably used to higher PH values. Anyway, I was just wondering if the frequent 0.1 pH (from 6.5-6.6) change is something you'd not recommend?
<Since discus are kept at higher water temps around 85-92 degrees the addition of C02 might cause them to breathe harder, unless at night you are keeping an airstone running. Many people with planted tanks encounter problems with oxygen levels at night, running CO2. This is due to the fact when lights are on, plants are absorbing the C02 and when the lights are off the plants are absorbing oxygen and expelling C02 and the fish are gasping for air. Some people run an airstone at night to counteract this problem.
In answer to your question: a pH swing of 0.1, even frequently, is not harmful to Discus. ~PP>
Thank you.
Regards, Eric

South American Tank 9/25/06
Hi
<Hi Nate, Pufferpunk here.>
I have a 75 gallon tank (48 x 18 x 18 inches) which I wish to turn into a South American tank. Here are the proposed inhabitants: 2 pairs of Rams, two pairs of Apistogramma, 6 Cory cats, 3 otos, a school of cardinals (20-30). I would also like to keep 3 discus.
Questions: I am planning on doing 15-20 gallon water changes weekly (or knowing me, more like once a week). Is this enough for Discus? If not, I'll go without Discus. I'd like to keep a promise to do more water changes, but it just won't happen.
<I'd forget about discus then. Discus breeders do 100% WC daily. I do 80% weekly.>
Oxygenation: Do I need some air pumps to oxygenate the water?
How many air pumps would you recommend?
What size air pumps?

Flow: I will have two whisper 60 filters on the tank for filtration. Should I add additional powerheads to give the fish some kind of current?
<No, not necessary for these fish. I add a canister to any tank over 50g, like an Eheim. ~PP>
Thanks, Nate Terry

New aquarium set up, bright lights for Discus, plants... 9/26/06
Hi WWM Crew,
What I want to create is a densely planted tank with livebearers or discus. I have a 72 gallon bowfront (about 22? deep) with an IceCap
660 lighting system totaling to 440 watts of light (mounted about 5" from the waters surface). Is this too much light?
<Mmm, for Discus, yes... unless you have a good deal of shading "cover" supplied by good plant growth, decor (e.g. driftwood and such)>
Also, are URI 10K bulbs the correct color for growing plants?
<Are fine...>
It seems that the 10K bulbs are the lowest color VHO bulbs that I can find. Should I swap out one or more bulbs with actinics, or are those entirely useless to plants?
<Almost the latter>
Could you make some recommendations for the types of plants that would be suitable for this type of system.
<Is posted on WWM...>
I want to do the proper planning before I start this system so any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
~Chris
<Please read starting here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PlantedTksSubWebIndex/AquariumGardenSubWebIndex.html
Bob Fenner>

FW, high pH... Discus... No useful info. 9/22/06
Hi We have a couple of Solid Blue breeders, our PH has risen to 7.7,
<?>
one of the breeders has gone dark, sits in the corner, breaths heavy. I didn't think he would still be here on Monday let alone today (not looking to good) We have tried to get the PH down,
<How...?>
but no joy. Can you suggest anything I have been doing 25% water changes each day.
Thanks
Julie
<Mmm... are you familiar with Alkalinity/Alkaline reserve? Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwph,alk.htm
and the linked files above... Would be worthwhile to have test kits, measures for kH, GH... to go along with such expensive fish. It may be that your source water needs to be filtered... perhaps Reverse Osmosis... and then blended with some original water for "some" mineral content... Bob Fenner>

Transitioning a Discus Tank from Artificial to Live Plants 8/1/06
Hi,
<Hello>
I have a 120 gallon discus tank that I'd like to transition from artificial plants to live plants, and I'd love to know what you think and if you have any suggestions. Here are the details:
Current setup:
120 gallon glass aquarium (60" x 26" x 18")
2 x Fluval 405 External Canister Filters
2 x 250W Visi-Therm Stealth Heaters
Medium-size gravel (about 3mm in diameter)
Artificial plants and driftwood
4 x 24" Marineland Eclipse T8 18W Fluorescents
Temperature = 81 F (a little low for discus, I know, but I have Corys... do you still think I should raise it?)
<I would not raise this temperature unless there was some "call" to do so... Disease, reproduction/breeding... Likely you have cultured livestock... can/does do fine at consistently lower-tropical thermal regimes>
pH = 6.8
3 dGH, 3 dKH
NH3 = 0
NO3 = 0
NO2 = 0
30% water changes twice a week, 50% water changes once a week
6 discus (3" and growing)
6 cardinal tetras
2 Corydoras axelrodi (I plan to get a few more Corys once the plants are in to keep these guys company)
What I'd like to add:
4 x 24" Coralife Aqualife Single Compact Fluorescent Strip Lights: 6700K
(260 W total) (I would remove the current lighting)
"Deluxe Fully-Automatic CO2 System" from Drs Foster & Smith
Substrate: 1/2 sand, 1/2 Eco-Complete
Driftwood from www.aquariumdriftwood.com
Plants (Amazon biotope package from freshwateraquariumplants.com)
- Alternanthera reineckii "Red"
- Lilaeopsis novae zelandiae
- Echinodorus osirus
- Echinodorus tenellus
- Mayaca fluviatilis
- Myriophyllum elatinoides
<Mmm, no... Doesn't do well in warm water: http://www.fnzas.org.nz/plant_survey/aquarium_plants/?user_plants=98&cHash=bfa1164e86>
- Heteranthera zosteraefolia
- Hydrocotyle leucocephala
- Echinodorus latifolius
<Mmm, a couple other plants will be near their upper thermal limit... I encourage you to review these individually>
I know the gravel isn't great for plants (or the Corys, either), so I'd like to upgrade to a mixture of sand and Eco-Complete. The Eco-Complete appeals to me because it would involve less rinsing and it is packed in blackwater extract, which I think my discus would like. Would simply mixing the sand and Eco-Complete into the gravel be a bad idea?
<Can be done... slowly... a few pounds per day>
I think the visual effect might be pretty cool, and the gravel would help prevent the sand from packing in too tightly and creating anoxic areas. Not to mention that it would be much easier than removing all the gravel.
Is the "Deluxe Fully-Automatic CO2 System" overkill for the plants I'd like to keep?
<No. Very worthwhile>
The system is expensive, but it would be nice to have good control over the pH. Without the automatic controller, I'd always be worrying about a pH crash since the water is relatively soft. Same for the lighting - is it too much? Or just enough?
<Should be fine... the plants, fishes listed are adaptable to its output>
Am I missing anything? Any other advice?
Thanks for all your help,
Danielle
<Mmm, your set-up and maintenance listed are close to "picture perfect"... the transition will be a bit stressful for you and your livestock, but will result in greatly more enjoyment and vitality for both. Bob Fenner>

Discussing Discus... Systems, Feeding, 7/10/06
Hello fish keeping friends,
<Hi Jarryd, Pufferpunk here>
I currently have 6 discus: one brilliant turquoise, one red turquoise, one German purple, one blue pigeon, one pigeon snakeskin and one solid white metallic blue fin.
<Sounds like my tank!>
All are getting on well I would just like to make sure that I'm doing everything properly. The tank is 68 gallon planted, temp 28.5 degrees Celsius, all ammonia, nitrates, nitrites at zero, pH at 6.5.

My fishy friends get fed a high quality flake food called Nutrifin mixed with a discus formula from O.S.I. in the morning, then brine shrimp at about 3 in the afternoon and then a feeding of frozen blood worms and Mysis shrimp for tea. Does this feeding schedule seem ok in your opinion??
<3x/day is perfect. Their metabolism is high due to the high temps. I keep my temp at 84-86F degrees. Brine shrimp aren't very nutritious--mostly water. For my 3rd feeding I use freeze-dried plankton.>
I carry out two 30% water changes per week, using ready made water heated to 30 degrees then pH adjusted. In terms of water changing is this too much???
<I do 70% weekly. Here is some info on differences between several smaller WC compared to a single large WC: http://www.thepufferforum.com/articles/water/waterchangemath.html I find no reason to adjust pH. Especially if it goes back up after the adjustment product dissipates (unless you're running peat). That fluctuation can be more harmful than good. Tank-bred discus are used to any pH.>
Thank you for your time, I also have one more query, I've noticed that some discus are more rounded and thicker than others?? Is this just part of their genetics???
<Could be...>
And as discus mature do they fatten up and become more rounded?????
<Not sure what you're asking--definately a "flat" fish. Enjoy those discus, I find them quite friendly, beautiful & rewarding to keep! ~PP>>
Thank you so much for helping, Jarryd

Discus, Rummynose, Filtration, CO2 - 06/20/2006
Hi there, I was planning on setting up a 55 gallon planted discus tank with some Rummynose dithers. First off, could you tell me how many discus I could fit in there comfortably,
<Ultimately, likely only one or two pairs. However, until they pair off, you can "pack in" as many as the tank's biological filtration will realistically allow. Discus, while still quite young and small, find great security in numbers. If you plan to grow 'em up from bitty babies, start with a lot, and as they grow, pare them down - sell the ones you remove, and end up, in the end, with one or two pairs of adults.>
as well as how many tetras?
<Probably a dozen or two.>
I plan on 130 watts of 6500K lighting with tons of plants, Glossostigma, Microsorium, Eleocharis, all covering the bottom, anchored on driftwood etc. What kind of CO2 system should I use? Nothing too fancy please, I have maybe 60 bucks to spend CO2 injection.
<Might look into DIY methods on this budget, or consider used items.>
Also, I was looking at the Rena XP2 for filtration. Is this a good choice?
<I think so, yes. I use and recommend the Eheim Professionel II models, but they are VERY pricey. If you can find them used, as I did, you may find them more affordably - but the Rena will be fine, I believe.>
The Eheim (drool) is waaaaaay out of my price range, except for the Ecco, which is even a bit on the hefty side of cheap. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks again, Eddy
<All the best to you, -Sabrina>

Rocks For A Discus Tank 4/29/06
Thank you so much for all the information. I cannot wait to delve it. I am a book junkie too! Hey-
I made the decision based on your input to go ahead with compact fluorescent lighting. I ordered a 96 watt strip. I would like to create a ledge of sorts
made out of the rock, and stagger the plants on it. I thought it was quartzite since the guy who sold it to me said it was, but I have since discovered
he is an idiot, and it is sandstone.
< Big difference between the two.>
My question to you is this. Do we know if sandstone will alter the pH in any way or dissolve and ruin my filter?
< Sandstone is a sedimentary rock. It is formed but sand particles being compressed and then cemented together by minerals like calcium. In an aquarium these minerals will dissolve into the water and increase the hardness and most likely the pH will rise above 7. Discus usually don't like hard water.-Chuck>
My water is 7.0 pH from the tap. I have 4 inches of Eco-Complete, and a big 18 inch hunk of bog wood in there now. No fish yet. Everything is still murky, I am assuming from the eco-complete, but it might be the wood.
< The tannins in the wood will turn the water a tea brown. Carbon and water changes will help clear it up. The color will prevent some of the light from reaching the plants and high light intensity plants may not do to well.-Chuck>
I have had the filter running non-stop for 3 days. It's packed with bio-max and carbon, and some old gunky carbon from my other tank to help cycle. Thanks for your time, once again. Yours truly, Karen

Plants In A Deep Discus Tank 4/26/06
I bought a 47 G column tank. What sort of lighting will I need to grow plants. I want plants there for the health of the tank, if they have to be a low
light variety due to the depth of the tank so be it.
The tank is 31 inches tall, 20 inches wide, and 18 inches deep. I bought this particular tank with Discus in mind. Can you help me? Thank you very much.
Karen
< This tank is very deep and may be difficult to get light to penetrate all the way down to the gravel. At a minimum use two florescent tubes(6500K). Go with low light plants like java fern, anubias, and Cryptocorynes. Stay away from additives such as black water extract that will darken the water and prevent light from reaching the plants. Low light plants are not very active but will help keep the take clean. Next would be to try compact florescent lights.-Chuck>

Re: Discus Planted Tank- Chuck! Using Metal Halide Lights In FW 4/26/06
I suppose a MH Pendant would be overkill? It would work, mechanically, because the tank is set up in my kitchen, and there happens to be a big pot rack
directly overhead where I could suspend the fixture. Price isn't necessarily an object, since I still have blank checks. : ) Karen
< With metal halide you would definitely have enough light. With this much light it becomes a more difficult tank to manage because of the potential to turn the tank very green with algae overnight. With intense lighting the plants are very active and will use up nutrients quickly. Fertilization will need to be balanced so to feed the plants and not the algae. I would recommend the book "Aquarium Plants" By Christel Kasselmann. Setting up you tank for live plants will be more involved than for the discus, but the combination of lush plants and beautiful discus is hard to beat.-Chuck>

Discussing Discus issues 04/17/2006
Hi there!
<Howdy>
 I have been planning a planted discus aquarium for the last 6 months and have done all the reading and watching I believe I can.
<Heee!>
I have drawn sketches in order to aquascape the tank with plants so as not to mess around with anything once I place them in there.
<Good technique>
I'm at the stage now where I have a few unanswered questions:
Is it necessary to have extra aeration in the tank or is the plants sufficient?
<Mmm, well, necessary to have sufficient circulation to provide for gas exchange, oxygen solubility... day and especially night... can be provided in other ways than with "bubblers" though>
What plants can you suggest for a 250L tank?
<Posted on WWM>
How many discus should i have?
<Also posted>
I want to have a lot of variety and colour, so what discus will give me this?
In other words what collection of discus will give me colour and coexist happily?