FAQs on Stinging-Celled
Related Articles: 'Coral'
Compatibility: On Reducing Captive Negative Interactions
Cnidarians by Bob Fenner, ppt.
vers: Cnidarian Compatibility: On
Reducing Negative Cnidarian Interaction Parts: 1, 2,
3, 4, 5, by
Bob Fenner, Cnidarians,
Water Flow, How Much
Related FAQs: Cnidarian Compatibility 1, Cnidarian Compatibility 2, Cnidarian Compatibility 3, Cnidarian Compatibility 4, Cnidarian Compatibility 5, Cnidarian Compatibility 6, Cnidarian Compatibility 7, Cnidarian Compatibility 8, & By Group
Compatibility, Zoanthid Compatibility,
Compatibility, Soft Coral Compatibility, Cnidarians 1, Cnidarians 2, Cnidarian Identification, Cnidarian Selection, Cnidarian Behavior, Cnidarian Systems, Cnidarian Feeding, Cnidarian Disease, Cnidarian Reproduction,
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Book 1: Principles, Algae, Invertebrates
by Robert (Bob) Fenner
Mushroom killing bacteria?
Hi Crew! I am at a total loss, I need help.
I run 2 tanks, my main 75 gallon display tank (established 3.5 years) and a
newer (7/8 mth) 55 gallon 'frag tank'.
I am a big mushroom enthusiast, but also keep a variety of other soft corals,
Zoanthids, lps and a couple small easy sps (birdsnests, montis).
<Mmm; you likely have heard/read that Zoas and Shrooms often "fight"
chemically; more than most stony corals>
You'll hate to hear this but I have never been big on testing, I simply rely on
frequent small water changes via drip, and constant observation for anything
looking 'off'. I have a low fish stock in both (maroon clown, starry blenny,
azure damsel, pink spotted watchmen and an unknown Anthias in the 75, and a
small clarkii clown and azure in 55).
<I'm of the same "practice">
Up until recently both tanks have thrived, very minimal coral or fish loss over
the past few years. Everything has always seemed very stable and well balanced,
no issues with algae and in fact immediately before my current
issue my display tank looked the best it ever had.
But we all make mistakes, and I always learn from them, but in this case I think
it's too late. I know I should have been quarantining everything and I have
learned and now have a quarantine tank set up but as I said, too late.
So on to my issue. A few months ago I purchased the coral contents of a fellow
reefers tank with plans of fragging and reselling the corals. The vast majority
were Euphyllia (torches, hammers, frogspawn, as well as a favia, large brain and
some others) I placed them all in my frag tank, except one large plate that I
didn't have space for that went into my display.
<The Euphyllias rank near the top for allelopathy amongst Scleractinians...
Oh how I wish you'd slowly acclimated the new to the established as gone over
Within 24 hours the brain and plate both looked ill
<Losers to the mentioned combatants; classical>
and eventually started melting, and were covered in the dreaded brown jelly.
Never having dealt with brown jelly before it was a great learning experience. I
promptly removed both corals but the brown jelly didn't take long to affect the
other Euphyllia (i suppose since they were not well established and under
stress). I saw no ill effects on any corals in my main tank, assuming because
they were well established and healthy. My attempts at fragging off dying
pieces, treating in a separate tank with furan 2, dips with revive, rinsing in
fw etc all failed. In the end i lost
the vast majority of Euphyllia that I had purchased, aside from the frogspawn
which never seemed effected.
A few weeks later and all the Euphyllia in the frag tank were gone besides the
frogspawn, and everything seemed back to normal, so I resumed my normal
practices. I fragged some Rhodactis mushrooms in the frag tank,
<... Yeeikes; not in the tank; not this soon>
and to my surprise they melted. I have never had issues with fragging any
mushrooms in the past. At the time I did not think it could be related, (and am
still not sure it is) maybe I had just 'butchered' them or they weren't well
established, so I simply decided to hold off on any fragging for a while. At
some point I moved some mushrooms into my display, considering them quarantined
and healthy. Weeks went by with no issues, now the nightmare starts.
A few weeks ago I lost one of my prize Rhodactis in my display. It had been
doing amazing and was growing rapidly, and then didn't open fully for a couple
days, then suddenly melted within hours. Since then many healthy
mushrooms (some that I have had for at least 3 years) have just suddenly melted
<A familiar "cascade" event>
Some first detach from the rock then disappear, some start expelling their guts
then begin oozing from their mouths till they melt away, the odd one simply
begins oozing from an outside edge then melts. These are healthy mushrooms, not
recently fragged or damaged in any way. I have learned to syphon them out now as
soon as i see it beginning, but I need to find a way to stop this!
<For now; just time going by: NO CHANGES>
So far it has only affected Rhodactis and Discosoma, I haven't lost a single
Ricordea, or any other type of coral for that matter. The mushrooms that die are
all in random places in the tank, it doesn't necessarily travel from one and
then directly to it's neighbour. I even accidentally damaged a hammer coral
while moving it (it and an anemone were getting dangerously close to each other
) and it has recovered quickly and without incident.
I've done large water changes and added carbon with no luck, just in case it was
I apologize for the long story, but I feel all details are necessary.
<They are; no worries>
Please help guide me, what steps should I take next? I have spent 3.5 years
building my mushroom collection, this is devastating to me. I am normally very
good at researching and problem solving on my own, but I feel I have
hit a dead end.
<IF you have other well-established systems to move some stock to, I would.
Otherwise, no further additions or fragging here for a few months>
The last thing I would like to note is that the only other major change I had
made around the time this started was that I began feeding Reef Roids to the
tank, although I am sure this is merely coincidental.
<Agreed. Bob Fenner>
Question for Bob Fenner. Poss. Cnid. interaction/hlth. issue
I have a situation where my Green Slimers have lost all of their surface
Green color over the course of about a month. All that is left are the
Also, My green caps are starting to do the same thing.
<Yikes... no fun. Something missing or too much here... a few
possibilities... W/o further reading, would like to know the usual water
quality parameters, test results... about your set up, particularly use
of any chemical filtrants... maintenance routines; foods/feeding...>
The Frogspawn, Hammer and Zoas do not seem to be affected. and are open
and seem happy.
<These "more stinging" Cnidarians may be winning at the expense of your
I also have a large plate coral, that has lost its vigor (use to have
over 100 conical type polyps extended 1/3 of an inch all the time) that
now has its mouth open most of the time (does take meaty foods) and is
holding its purple color, just very little polyp extension. It also
seems to be affected in some way.
Any advice on what might be causing the loss of Green color?
<Again; and more directly: I suspect allelopathy here; secondary...
brought on by some unbalance/s in the system, allowing more aggressive
stinging-celled life to be chemically, possibly physically outcompeting
the small polyp stonies here>
parameters are in range, Calcium is 500,
<This is a little high. I'd let drift to 400-450 ppm max.>
DKH is between 8 - 9.5, Mag is
1400, Nitrates are 30, but it these have been typical values for past
It is a 40 gallon tank, no skimmer, few fish, change
25% of water weekly, using Red Sea Coral Pro Salt.
<No use of a phosphate filter? No use of iodide-ate?>
<I'd have you read here:
and beyond in this ppt presentation series. There is an article version
as well; linked above. Review what is stated there re avoiding
allelopathy, what can be done now. It may be necessary to remove, even
frag the living, healthy parts of the "losing" colonies and move, raise
them elsewhere. Bob Fenner>
fish and corals; comp. 4/9/17
Wonderful site! Full of much needed info. I have a question that may
have already been answered, but sometimes it is daunting to find the
exact topic in your enormous vault of information. I have a 180 FOWLR
and inverts that has been running successfully for four years. Three
Sicce voyager 4's for circulation in the display tank, a Fluval
underwater filter for extra aeration, circulation and water polishing,
Tunze protein skimmer and
PhosBan 550 in sump.
<This last... you know that all chemosynthetic life requires "some"
Lighting is two 32" Reef Breeder V1 Legacies.
The inhabitants are an 8 inch Hawaiian Naso Tang, 2 inch Flame Angel, 5
inch Red Headed Solon Wrasse, 4 inch Melanurus Wrasse, 2 Percula Clowns,
a 3 inch Cleaner Wrasse and a 4 inch Dart fish (lost the other two over
the years). I have three cleaner shrimp, about 15 hermits and about 70
various types of snails.
Everyone is peaceful, getting along, so I do not want to add any more
fish and upset the balance. I was talked into adding some easier, LPS
corals to add some color by someone at my LFS, and have been successful
so far over the last five months with everyone doing fine.
But recently I realized that I committed the classic mistake of not
researching the corals like I had done with the fish to determine
compatibility not only between corals, but also the fish. I would like
to list the corals I added so you could tell me if I have added
potential problems or if I may be OK with these. May main concern is the
health and safety of my fish.
Two live rocks with anthelia
Two Zoanthid colonies
A small Favia Brain coral
A small Goniastrea Brain
Twelve heads of Duncans
A 6 inch Acan Lord Ultra Colony
A 7 inch Dragon Soul Colony
I was planning on adding one last item; a 7 inch Mummy Eye chalice. I am
trying to leave adequate space, at least 5 inches between all of these.
Thought the Angel might be the biggest threat to the corals,
<Yes; but just possibly... individualistic>
but it has shown no interest yet. Nitrates stay at 2 to 3 PPM, PH 8.2,
KH 11, Calcium 420, temp 76 degrees, salinity 1.024. Should I rethink
this and remove any of the corals? Thank you for your advice.
<I think you are fine here; including the Chalice addition. Again, you
should have some (thousandths of ppm at least) detectable phosphate. Bob
Chemical warfare? 7/3/16
Good afternoon all and thank you for your time. I have a 7 year old 60
gallon saltwater tank. I have a skimmer, live rock, a goby, a clown
fish, a cleaner shrimp, some snails, many purple mushrooms. I added a
Kenya tree coral about 4 months ago. He was happy for 2 months and is
now mostly slumped over. Is this due to chemical warfare?
I used to have many, many corals, gsp, Duncan, hammer, Zoas,
they flourished and then they all gradually died off over the
years. So I've just had the mushrooms for a while now and they
have taken over half of the tank.
The Kenya is on the other side.
I added a coral beauty a week ago, acclimated him over an hour. On day 3
he developed a cloudy eye. Could this be related to the coral issue?
<Yes... and a few things/actions you might consider to keep your
system more "balanced" in favor of all macro-life there. Regular/weekly
water changes, the periodic use of carbon (am a fan of Chemi-Pure...
switching out an older unit every month... leaving two in place. You
might want to read Re ORP/RedOx, get involved in measuring such as an
indicator of your system's viability... Oh, and DO read re how to go
about acclimating any NEW Cnidarians... HERE:
Thank you for any insights,
<And I'd thin the herd re the Corallimorpharians here...
trade them in. Bob Fenner>
Please help. Cnid. allelopathy in a new, large sys.
Hello Mr. Fenner,
I hope you can point me in the right direction. I have a 265 gallon reef
tank that I set up 4 months ago. I have sump/refugium, 4" carbon
reactor, 6" media reactor with media pellets, 8" skimmer. Lights are 4 Hydra 26
Nitrate /phosphate is zero
<Mmm; stop here: You know that all bio-mineralizing life requires "some" NO3 and
HPO4? W/o these basic chemical nutrients all your "corals" will be very
and the water is within reef parameters. The tank has 3 sections. Left
is Zoas, center is 100 plus heads of hammers/frogspawn, and the right is 18"
green leather and 4" green toadstool.
Everything was fine with Zoas multiplying, hammers sprouts tiny babies but
within the past 5 days, some of the hammer heads just died leaving stalk
<The "losers"... to either the Alcyoniids or Zoanthids>
I bought a 60 gallon so this weekend I can put the finger/toadstool in it.
I hook up the FX6 filter (400 GPH) with carbon to address chemical warfare since
Monday. I think the reasons on the demise of the hammers are :
1. Chemical release from leather/toadstool.
2. Media reactor strips all nitrate/phosphate which hammers do need to grow.
<Definitely a/some factor>
So my plan is:
1. Move the toadstool/green finger to the 60 gallon.
2. Discontinue the FX6.
3. Discontinue the carbon and media reactor (all in one pellets).
The Zoas are thriving with new heads forming every week. I love to have a garden
of hammers and while some people grow these like weeds, I can't keep them alive.
Before dying, they thrive then die next day. Is my diagnosis and plan of action
correct? Thank you Mr. Fenner. Dai
<I do agree with your plan; is what I would do, try at this point. IF no
improvement, I would move the Euphyllias elsewhere. DO PLEASE READ AND HEED my
acclimation protocol for introducing any/all NEW Cnidarians... by mixing water
to/fro twixt the main-display and isolation/quarantine system. HERE:
<<Note: next time mention triple-dosing iodide-ate>>
Re: Please help
Thank you Mr. Fenner. So you are saying maybe it is the Zoas that are affecting
the hammers as well ?
<Might/could well be; yes>
In that case should I move the hammers to the 60 and leave the toadstool/finger
in the main tank?
<Yes; a better plan... Plus I'd triple dose all (both systems) with
iodide-ate... every three days, three times>
Or just leave them in the main tank for now? I bought the 60 for the leathers
specifically. Is it OK to run the 4" carbon reactor?
<Can't say from here. I would NOT use such on a newish system period>
On another topic. I think the" all in one pellets" give people the false sense
<Oh yeah; the/a "western ethic"... trained to be good consumers... "Buying"
something... but sans understanding, often false notion/s>
The dealer touts as " zero nitrate and zero phosphate" so people go crazy
thinking they don't have to do water for a year. But while this is true, it is
hurting corals because it is stripping of the essential nutrients that corals
<Yes... even other media/sources tout that the world's reefs are "nutrient free"
when in good shape. NOT the case. They are nutrient concentrated; with the life
there scavenging most all available. NEVER zero nutrients in the water>
If you have to rely on these 'miracles" to get nitrate/PO4 to be zero then that
person needs to evaluate his technique of husbandry.
<Very well stated>
Thank you and I look forward to your guidance. Dai
<And I to your further sharing. BobF>
Re: Please help 5/27/16
Ok, so this is the plan. Move the hammers to the 60. How much of new water to
old water ratio be?
If the old water is not good (chemical warfare, no nutrients) then may be start
with 100% fresh water?
You talk about triple dose 2 tanks but I am not familiar with the medication.
You mean every three days, I dose the tank 3 times a day and for how long? Is
this the iodine coral dip?
<See WWM re. B>
Re: Please help... Euphyllias, hlth. 6/3/16
Hello Mr. Fenner
The 60 gallon is getting ready as I had to order a new tank. In the mean time my
hammers are dying so I need to get them out of my 265.
<I'd move NOW; with a good deal of their present water>
I have a 50 gallon tank and freshly prepared water (a week old) that I will put
in that tank with 40% old water and 60% new water.
I will move all the hammers into that 50 gallon until the 60 is ready (likely by
this weekend). The 50 just have HOB filters, T5 so do you see any issues with
<I do not... I WOULD triple dose w/ iodide/ate after the move... possibly more
as a dip, along w/ a simple (hexose) sugar enroute>
I have run an external filter FX6 (400 GPH) to get rid of the chemical warfare
but the hammers are still dying. Thank you for your reply. Dai
Allelopathy Inquiry 5/11/16
Dear Bob & Crew,
Thanks again for your time and experience!
<And you for sharing Joe>
Another question today on the fascinating topic of allelopathy. I am
gradually changing my 155 reef to all stony corals. Like many, I
have witnessed the problems of allelopathic chemicals in a closed
system. I first noticed these in large Eunicia sp. and lastly, in a
colony of large hairy mushrooms. The remarkable fact is that
many corals proved more or less adaptable to these chemicals, even
within the same species!
I have since moved these soft corals but am still noticing some loss of
heads in some Euphyllia species, most notably, hammer corals. I'm sure
that some chemicals remain in the system despite water changes,
skimming, and carbon (which doesn't remove much of these toxins IMO).
<Yes and yes>
Moving the corals to the far side of the tank, away from where the
mushrooms were, helps the problem. I'm baffled because it seems as
though the hairy mushrooms are still in the tank, noticing that the loss
of heads is always on the left side of the corals (the mushrooms were on
the left side of the tank)!
I do have a Rose bubble-tip anemone that resides on this side
(unaffected by the toxins I might add). It is a 8" specimen and I have
had many of these in the past with little evidence of allelopathy.
My question is, are bubble-tips known to produce toxins like
some soft corals?
<Wild Entacmaeas more than domestic, cultured; and less than other large
Pacific Anemone species>
It would explain why the left side of some LPS corals in the tank and
closing up and dying.
I might also add that interestingly, no SPS corals seem to be affected.
Thanks so much!!Joe
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Allelopathy and Assimilation
So, as per the usual, I have stocked my tank with to <too> much to quickly. In
the interests of keeping all inhabitants stress free I need to strategically
remove some of my most offensive residents.
<You are wise here>
I had received a previous indication from your all knowing resource that my
bubble tip anemone was most likely a victim of allelopathy. I have enclosed a
photo of my derasa clam also because I have noticed his exhalant siphon is, not
gaping, but not strictly a slit either. And he awakens in the morning normal but
by close of, Kessil led, lights is slightly more open. This behavior appears
despite stable, testable, water parameters, of 1.025 salinity, 0 ammonia or
nitrites, slightly elevated nitrates of under 15 ppm, high end, 8.5 alkalinity,
400 ppm calcium,
<And Mg w/in proportion I take it>
8.0 ph, 78 degrees F. Also there seems to be some white mucus strings that
appear on his exclusive live rock. The frag in the picture was removed to try
and accommodate said clam. Could these be secretions from corals that irritate
him as they increase over the course of the day?
<Mmm; maybe... best to look at under a microscope.... send the images along>
Or should I be investigating for a different offending hitchhiker? He
occasionally opens and closes and readjusts. Should I change his position?
<I would not... this animal is capable of re-orienting itself>
So, in terms of coral allelopathy does the size of the colony matter?
For example is a small frag of green polyps less noxious than a whole rock of
Is an individual coral colony subject to differing degrees of allelopathy?
Does a coral always secrete noxious byproducts as a function or strictly in
<No; not always>
Does this suggest also any rearrangement in the tank creates further problems
<Not necessarily; no.... there are differing mechanisms... mesenterial filaments
of different types can/do "reach" out a distance... the longest (Galaxea...)
about a foot... and chemical secretion exists in concentrations that are a
function of distance>
I have read and continue to about the types of coral aggression but am trying to
pinpoint those most likely to exude chemical constraints versus those that
overgrow or use sweepers. The 65 gallon tank does use Chemi-pure and said
anemone lurks and hides nearly upside down, off to one half of the glass box,
but still just seems discontent. He, rose bubble tip anemone, shares his glass
box with soft corals, xenia, small finger leather, small green polyped leather
coral, a green Zoanthid frag, (5)red mushroom Corallimorphs, lps coral frags of
Duncan and Acanthastrea(sp),a rock or flower anemone, and derasa clam. The
softies stick to their side of the 65 gallons with the lps situated higher and
off to the opposite side but understood this is no expanse.
<Is there.... a chance that you have separate systems to isolate the LPS from
the SPS, the Entacmaea anemone by itself?>
That said, apologize for the details, but I'm unsure as to which
organism is likely causing the bubble tip anemone and clam the most unrest.
<See WWM, other references works of worth.... like a RedOx scale with Fluorine
at the top, there are known "super" organisms.... some Zoanthids; some
Corallimorpharians.... that rank near the top... Galaxea is a topper physically>
Should I try first excluding the rock/flower anemone?
As this would seem to cause chemical trouble to the bubble tip?
These creatures have existed for a few months without incident but not
flourishing either. I'm trying to adjust before irreversible discontent. Your
input is so appreciated.
<Time to think.... study, and ACT ASAPractical. Bob Fenner>
Coral Calamity In Over My Head; Pocillopora (?) comp.
I love you guys, and I tend towards panic and indecision in regards to my tank.
<Don't catastrophize Ivy! Or at least try not to>
So I appreciate all the help you provide. My tank is currently a 65 gallon mixed
reef with 0 ammonia and nitrites, 5-10 ppm nitrates, ph 8.2, 78.5 degrees F, 45
pounds live rock, ample protein skimmer, hob filter, and multiple powerheads. I
have 2 cleaner shrimp, 5 tiny hermits, 4 Nassarius, 2 Astrea, 2 margarita
snails, a pair of clownfish and various soft corals. I have some green star
polyps, xenia, mushrooms, whisker (Duncan) frag, and, gasp and sigh, what I
reckon to be an sps Pocillopora, misrepresented as an assorted leather
cauliflower. My questions are regarding this guy, am I in way to <too> deep to
provide for his needs?
<The Pocillopora I take it; the stony coral? Your set up should support this
species, and if it can be situated away from the more noxious tankmates (Polyps,
Xenia, Shrooms); it should do fine... I'd situate it nearer (2/3 up) the top>
I have two Kessil 160s for lighting. The coral looks great. It is tan with green
polyps that extend fully throughout the day. This is day four and I will return
the little guy if he cannot survive the current lighting intensity but he is
awesome. I have him on the sand
<.... can/will you send along a pic of this Cnidarian? Shouldn't be on the sand>
on one side of the tank where I have the led intensity about 75% to try and
accommodate his needs. The other corals are adjusting to the leds at maybe 30%.
The lights adjust from blue to white light, is this a preference issue or is it
pertinent to corals needs?
<Preference; the blue is non functional; just for looks>
Also if there is a particular additive or supplement that would be to his
benefit please advise.
<See WWM re>
Also I have a wonderful yellow fang blenny, could you tell me his resting
Specifically does he burrow in sand or go in a cave?
I closely monitor the tank and he seems to want to "rest" by lying vertically on
the glass sides of the tank, is this normal?
This is after hours of foraging behavior. Finally while I am being a pest, is
there a way to supply his diet of weird little rock creatures, plankton or
copepods, that I can purchase and add to the tank?
<Refugium; oh I see below>
I am currently without a refugium but am trying to provide for his dietary
needs, without dumping in dead organisms from a bottle.
<Frozen/defrosted are VASTLY superior>
Your patience and tolerance is admirable. My next question is whether I can add
three Naso tangs and four majestic angelfish to this tank? Don't they stop
growing to adjust to tank size? I kid, I kid.
<I hope, I hope. Bob Fenner>
Help! Something eating my corals in the middle of the night!
Hello! First I want to say thanks for all the information you guys provide, it's
helped me get through a lot of sticky situation. I need your help once again.
For the past several days I have looked all over your site and the rest of the
Internet for an answer and have not been able to find one. This started about a
week ago when I noticed my mushrooms that were close to the sand bed just
completely vanishing overnight. Mushrooms that were close to the sand bed were
BEAUTIFULLY opened all day and next day in the morning COMPLETELY gone and all I
saw was slime covering where the mushroom used to
be and some mushrooms just the outside ring was left but the entire center was
gone. First it happened to about 10 Ricordeas from literally one night to the
next, then it happened to a huge colony of red and blue mushrooms.
On the 3rd day I decided to remove all sand and investigate, found nothing.
I decided I would put the alarm clock about 2 hours after lights shut off to
investigate. I did this and the only thing I found was A TON of little round
white and brown snail.
<Mmm; don't think they're the immediate cause. What other Cnidarians are
Tried looking on internet but I believe may be some type of Nerite snails, I
don't think they are the problem because they were EVERYWHERE and not on top of
any corals and I figured they can get to all corals not just the ones near the
sand. Next night (after removing all my remaining mushrooms) now it was
a few Acan, chalice, and Favia frags that were also on sand bed.
<Mmm; these too should not have out-warred Corallimorphs>
They are literally half eaten and all i see is a slimy residue and the skeleton
underneath. I have since moved these corals to a higher location and they are
doing fine now. I took another coral and put it on the sand bed right before I
turned off the lights and sure enough by morning it was covered in slime and
skeleton was all that was left. Please help! I don't know what else to do! There
is still some sand left and I really don't want to remove ALL my sand but I will
if I have to. Thanks.
<Well; such an overnight problem (vs. a little over weeks time) and w/ the
Shrooms presenting as you state... Am guessing this is/was some sort of "melt
down" prompted by a challenge to the Mushrooms... Did you do something the day
ahead of the event? Like add a supplement, medication, algicide or such? You may
gain solace and useful input from reading re other such events; here:
and the "same advice" listed there. Bob Fenner>
Re: Help! Something eating my corals in the middle of the night!
Thank you so much for the quick response! I also thought that maybe it was a
series of events from maybe the mushroom toxins but I'm starting to rule that
out because during the day all these corals that are waking up dead and covered
in slime are nice and opened during the day and at night they're gone..
<... more like a chemical battle... Allelopathy>
Plus the ones that were affected were moved up and are doing well and others
that were doing well up top, I moved down and were eaten that night.
I did see a couple of Asterina stars which I forgot to mention. Can you please
clarify which is the bad Asterina vs. the good ones and do they eat all types of
<You can just look this up on WWM... the indices, search tool on every page>
So far it's been mushrooms, Acans, chalices, Favia, and all have been on the
sand bed. Wall hammers, wall frogspawn,
<...?! You didn't mention these Euphylliids in your orig. email... Read about
these as well>
and Acroporas are unaffected. Any other ideas?
Re: Help! Something eating my corals in the middle of the
Hello again! I have spent the ENTIRE SEVERAL DAYS reading and I can't
figure out what this could be.
<My guess/conjecture is the same as I've stated: There ARE predators of
cnidarians; fish, crustaceans, molluscs, worms... but this is MUCH MORE
likely an allelopathogenic effect. The Euphylliids "winning" and the
Corallimorpharians losing... There's not much living material/tissue to
these animals (mostly water)... once toxified they phagocytose...
self-digest at the cellular level>
All corals are doing great now ever since I decided to get EVERY CORAL
off the sand or anywhere near the bottom and I put an egg crate and
lifted it up with pvc to about 2 inches from the sand to putt all my
frags on. After about 2 days seeing that I did not have not even 1 more
loss I decided to do another experiment.
<Ohh, I do like this>
I got a maze brain frag, and another typed of Favia frag that were both
doing great and sat them down on the sand and I shut off the lights and
waited with a red flashlight in hand. Sure enough my sand
started attacking the coral. I can't explain what I saw but it
was like micro little white specks rising from the sand onto the coral.
The best way I can explain is that it's like a slimy/hazy cloud of
little tiny micro white specks rising from sand onto the coral. This is
the best pic I could get.
<Sorry to state, I can't make out much here>
Please explain what this is because in 15 years of reefkeeping I'm at a
loss. If you try and look at the bottom of the coral u can see the
The only way I was able to take a pic is turning on my blues. You can
see towards the bottom right of the pic. Not all the way in the corner
of the pic but just to the left of the corner. Thanks in advance.
<Well; maybe "something" in the gravel is at play here; I don't know
what it is though. I would put your data, pix on the various "reef bb's"
and see what other folks speculate. Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>
Mandarinfish Bleaching? Untenable mix of Cnid.s in a small volume
I love your site and have read the threads on Mandarinfish but not sure
it applies to my Mandarinfish. We have a 29 Biocube
that has been reef established with live rock and sand for 5 years. We
added just a few fish in the last couple of months. Yellow tail damsel,
2 ocellaris, 1 Mandarinfish. We bought the Mandarinfish 5-6 weeks ago
and we have bought 3 additional bottles of copepods in that time to make
sure he has plenty. He is fading and the lateral lines are showing on
his back but he doesn't look like he is starving to me, however, I
obviously am no expert.
<Doesn't appear overly thin; but I do see the whiting out in the
His color is dramatically fading in the last week. He did have a
stressor about 1 week ago.
We found him in the sump and had to net him out. He did take a
few days to recover from that but after 36 hours, he was swimming around
picking pods as usual. He pecks about every 4-8 seconds so I assumed
there were/are enough pods for him. Does he look like he is
I am getting another bottle of pods tomorrow and have picked up some
Chaeto to seed again too. Please help me figure out what is causing this
and what I can do to help/save him. We just love our little guy.
We are dealing with a little bit of Cyano,
<This is another stressor>
with the addition of the fish, I overfed :( We are currently correcting
Candy Cane Coral
<Yikes... and the anemone mixed with these stony and the Sarco in such a
small volume... You'll need to do more to counter the allelopathy going
on here. Do read:
and the linked files above>
All coral are frags and small except the Acan
<Your photosynthetic life requires some>
Nitrates 5-10 (a little high right now)
<The reading for now; and patience. Bob Fenner>
Re: Mandarinfish Bleaching?
I love you; thank you!
I'm so glad he isn't starving. I will read and
correct whatever I need. We have ordered your book and are trying very
to be conscientious aquarists. We are setting up a 90 gallon and will
transfer anything that is not compatible.
<Ah, welcome. BobF>
Re: Mandarinfish Bleaching?
I'm April's husband Chris (love your site too!) and we're working together
tonight to separate out some of our corals/anemone in a refugium to
a frag only tank to counter the allelopathy issue.
We've been reading the
resources you've provided and the concept is well spelled out in that we
appear to have created a "chemical soup" from the corals and anemone in
<Yes; quite common w/ such "coral garden" approaches>
April was giving you a list from memory and I was hoping to
get you help in how to divide up the corals between the two
locations...basically split the list in two (or does it not matter which in
particular go where, just reduce the number in the tank).
<Does matter... Not knowing your background, but if you have had much
chemistry: Like a RedOx listing of elements more/less likely to "steal"/"get
robbed" of electrons, there are very aggressive species (e.g. the Halogens,
Fluorine...) in the way of allelopathogenic species (e.g. Galaxy Corals,
Oculinids) and on the other end of the scale "losers" like the Alkaline
Earths (Ca, Mg...) in the way of Stony Corals things like Pocilloporids, ...
with a range/scale all in-between. Of what you have the Euphylliid and
polyps are top dogs, along w/ the anemone...>
Here is the full
Candy Cane Coral
Short stem Goniopora
Again, most of these are fairly small frags with the Acan being the biggest
at 7"x4" and the Trach is about 4 inches long.
We want to deal with the allelopathy quickly for the mandarin and then
decide what to do with the corals (new tank or sell) as we continue to
and research more.
Thanks so much.
<I'd trade out the Anemones immediately; as they are the very most
incompatible organisms with all else here.
Sponges. Redux, toxicity of some to Scler.
Morning Bob! I was wondering if I could pick your brain about chemical warfare
<Not much left, but go ahead>
I'm presently contending with a scenario where water parameters are spot on and
stable yet Euphyllia that once thrived are now receding at a rapid rate. Upon
removal the bases of 90% of the colonies were found to be encrusted with
<Oh, yes! You did see my resp. on FB I hope... this mal-interaction IS VERY
important in the wild. Discounted in general in captivity as most folks are
careful in extracting "wild corals" to not include these sponges>
Sponge tissue was scrubbed off and colonies were given an iodine dip.
Now how to contend with the remaining sponges that have set up shop amongst the
<Hopefully they are not toxic, or as allelopathogenic varieties>
Possible that the sponges are part of the problem here?
Am I losing my mind?
<I hope not>
<I would use a BUNCH of units of Chemi-Pure in the filter flow path... if
necessary in time, break the corals close to the rock they're attached to,
remove all corals, bleach the rock.... Bob Fenner>
LPS Allelopathy Reactions
Dear Bob & Crew,
Thanks again for the great dedication to aquatics!
<And you for your kind words>
Sorry for the length but I want to make sure that you have all the
I have a 155 gallon mixed reef tank which is doing very well aside from
one fact. Many of my LPS corals only exhibit about 30% of the regular
polyp extension. This has been occurring for about a year. Lets give you
pH 8.4- 8.6 (due to dosing Kalk)
Temp 77.1- 77.4 F
Nitrate 0 to 5ppm
<Phosphate? Some of this and NO3 is essential>
Several Montipora digitata
Several Montipora capricornis
A few unknown encrusting Montipora
Medium Pocillopora damicornis
2 small unknown Acroporas
Medium Porites cylindrical
3 colonies of Green branching Hammer corals (about 70 heads total)
Large silver branching Hammer (about 30 heads)
Trumpet corals (about 15 heads)
Duncans (about 20 heads)
Med. colony of Green Star Polyps
Yellow Colony Polyps (not many)
Dragon Eye Zoanthids (medium colony)
Med/Lg Caribbean Eunicia
Fish: Currently None
3 Kessil 350W's at 90 watts each
4 80 watt T-5's (3 white, 1 blue)
PAR readings are about 800 at surface, 500 midway, 100-300 near bottom
Eheim return at 1300 gph (this one adjusts and have it at about 900 gph)
2 Hydor Evolutions at 1500gph each on wave timer, 10 seconds each side.
The hammers and trumpets are the effected corals. Have also tried
Frogspawns with the same effect. I have experimented with lighting and
water motion and I do not believe that these are the issue. I had many
of these corals in my previous 54 gallon and had full polyps extension.
I am currently conducting experiments by removing certain corals to see
if allelopathic reactions are the cause. I have a nano set up with the
hammers, GSP, some Zoanthids, a rose anemone (moving to the 155) and an
unidentified leather coral and the hammers exhibit full polyp extension
(has been up for 7 months).
My gut tells me that the Eunicia is the culprit in the 155.
<Could well be. IS a dominant player in the wild>
I have temporarily moved it to the nano to see if the hammers there are
effected and if the hammers in the 155 regain polyp extension. Have not
noticed any changes for the past week. Do the allelopathic
compounds linger in a system after the culprit coral is removed?
<Yes; for weeks... to months at times>
I have conducted 2 25% water changes in the 155.
I'm guessing that it will take time for the hammers to extend again but
I'm not sure that the Eunicia is to blame. Any suggestions?
<To keep experimenting as you're doing... Have you looked into the use
of Ozone, measuring RedOx as a principal guide to water quality? Much
allelopathogenic effect can be thus reduced>
Thanks so much!!
<Thank you. Bob Fenner>
Lemonpeel Angel Hybrid; in/comp. w/ corals 4/12/14
Hello, Crew! Always great to use your site as a reference guide. I am
considering a Lemonpeel/Half Black Angelfish for my 60 gallon
often does this fish go after coral?
<Less if this were a larger system>
Is there a specific type of coral that it
likes to nip?
<More fleshy, more tasty>
How big is the damage to the coral?
<Minor to complete>
I can't find a ton of information on this
particular fish. So any advice is appreciated. Thank
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Trying to figure out why my wellso Folded brain coral and
Favite brain coral are dying 11/29/13
I have a 96 gallon tank that I bought fully stocked this summer
(after following your advice…thank you!) At date of purchase (12 weeks
ago) it had 34 SPS and LPS corals, two 6" crocea clams and
several fish. I also had an existing 20 gallon tank with a
beautiful 8 year old Favite coral and some other leather corals.
I moved the new tank 30 miles using a detailed checklist from your site.
The new tank started off as well as could be expected. I change 10-15%
of the water weekly or biweekly, a habit that seemed to work well on the
8 weeks ago I moved the coral from my old tank into the new tank
using a drip acclimation method over several hours.
<I'd encourage all to take a few months with such moves... twixt
established systems... moving a cup or so of water back/forth daily or
more often... to acquaint all>
7 weeks ago I noticed a nitrate spike (from 0 to 25)
<Perhaps a reaction series....>
so I inserted some Kent Nitrogen Sponge into a VIA Aqua Media
Reactor. The nitrates declined to nil.
<... the corals need measurable NO3, HPO4... NPK>
About the same time my calcium and alkalinity started to drop;
over the past 7 weeks they have hovered around Calcium 340 and Alkalinity
7 kH. To increase these chemicals I added some B-Ionic two part calcium
and alkalinity buffer. Since then I have been unable to increase Calcium
and Alkalinity (despite 2-3 doses per week). Worse, my brain corals
started to bleach. About 2 weeks ago I concluded that the B-Ionic
was not doing the job so I switched to Kent Liquid Calcium but still
can't increase the parameters. In the meantime the brain coral continued
to bleach and is nearly gone. The same thing happened to a Wellso
Folded brain coral. Most of the other corals and
clams seem OK (but I lost some trumpet, frogspawn and hyrdropora
immediately after the move).
<... do you have the smaller tank still set up? IF so, return the
original corals to it>
Other important facts to consider. 8 to 5 weeks ago the temperature
fluctuated between 73 and 80 due to some electrical problems related to
home construction but since then (last 4 weeks) the temp has been stable
at 80-81. The old tank was full of live rock crusted with red
coraline algae. I moved some of that into the new tank and some into the
sump. I thought I needed to keep a light on the sump to maintain the
coraline algae growth but this seemed to cause a red hair algae
<Trouble; and/or evidence of other trouble/s>
I bought Bob's algae book, killed the sump light and increased water flow
with a new power head. Since then I have been siphoning off the
hair algae during the water changes using my fingers to scrape it off
Thanks to these measures and the stable temp, the Cyanobacteria seems
under control (though I know I need to stay vigilant).
My tank parameters (consistently since inception unless otherwise noted)
are as follows: PH 8.4, kH 7 (low of 6 and high of 9), Ammonia 0,
Nitrate 0 (high of 25), Phosphate 0,
<Again... you want, need N,P,K... same as plant/garden fertilizers>
Calcium 300 (low 270 and high 340), and Magnesium 1440. The new tank
has LED white and blue lights but I don't know the wattage. They are on
8 hours per day. I run a Coralife Protein Skimmer and am scraping black
stuff out of the cup weekly. I use de-ionized water (tap water run
slowly through an Aquarium Pharm filter) and have been adding 10 gallons
of freshwater weekly to replace water lost to evaporation. I buffer the
freshwater with Kent Superbuffer Dkh.
My questions 1) should I simply stop dosing the calcium and alkalinity?
<I would continue to do what you deem necessary to supply these (and
Magnesium)... do read, re-read on WWM re>
2) if not, what could be causing the brain corals to bleach?
<Allelopathy in a word. Likely brought on by a combination of move,
thermal swing, but principally the moving of the 20 gal. organisms>
Thank you for always being there to answer my questions.
<All may settle down in time, as it is; but I'd move the small system
organisms out for now. Bob Fenner>
Reef Tank - Some corals dying, others are great....
I did send the same email Saturday night with subject: 90 Gal Reef Water
Troubles. The past couple times that I have emailed y'all, it
hasn't taken this long to respond. So, just in case, here is
another email. Thank you!
<Thank you for re-sending and this pertinent note re: We do have other
reports of lost incoming; and have noticed this year that too much is
being "auto swept along" as junk by our paid for spam software... I
review all before deleting>
Good evening! I will start with some information about my tank. I
have a 90 gallon saltwater tank with a 29 gallon refugium with
sand and Chaetomorpha and Halimeda algae, Reef Octopus 150 skimmer,
NextReef MR1 Phosphate Reactor with media,
<.... first suspicion>
Corallife 150 watt
20 k - radiums, 2x Tunze NanoStream 6025's, 2x smaller power heads, 1x
Quiet One 4,000 return pump,
<Has this product given you good service?>
a 3"sand bed in most areas, about 70 lbs. LR, 5x Nassarius Snails, 1x
Super Tongan Nassarius Snail, 1 Turbo snail, 1x Large Cleaner Shrimp, 1
Green Mandarin (eats all foods offered and has substantial Copepod
population) , 1 Hoeven's Wrasse, 2x Ocellaris clowns, 4x
Bartlett's Anthias, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 Kole Tang, Caulastrea
Furcata(Candy Cane), Tubastrea(SunCoral), Tubiporidae(Pipe Organ),
Briarium(GreenStarPolyp), Zoanthid colony,
<The last three are supreme/sublime sources of allelopathy at times>
Blastomussa Wellsi(Blasto), Echinophyllia Aspera(chalice),
Acanthastrea Lordhoweensis (Acan), Euphyllia Ancora (Hammer), Plerogyra
(Bubble), Klyxum (Colt), Xenia sp. (Pom Pom xenia).
<And these last two>
Most everything is frag size except the Bubble and Colt corals.
I feed Spectrum Pellets once a day, PE Mysis that is rinsed prior to
being fed, and Nori sheets every couple of days.
This past month has been eventful with my reef tank. I'm just
going to date and catch you up on the important things.
7/5 - Acquired a Echinophyllia Aspera (chalice) frag. Not
even 48 hours goes by and the frag has RTN.
<It's newest, weakened... an easy target for an established system...
BETTER by far to isolate (quarantine) and DO the mixed water acclimation
gone over here:
the linked files above for Scleractinians>
7/10 - 29 gallon refugium cracks from top to bottom. Lost 30
gallons of water. Transferred all the sand, algae, and sand
critters to a bucket with a heater and small circulation pump.
Display tank circulated with 2 Tunze pumps.
7/11 - Heater apparently got too warm in the bucket and killed all
amphipods, copepods, brittle stars that were in the bucket
from the cracked refugium.
7/12 - New refugium ready for use. I
transferred the sand and algae from the bucket into the new refugium.
Hooked up the protein skimmer and phosphate reactor to help clean out
Refugium and Display Tank are not connected yet!
7/13 - At the end of the day, I am finally able to connect the display
tank to the refugium. I also add some ChemiPure and activated
carbon because I don't want the stressed corals to chemically harm
each other. I also repositioned my ballasts. According
to a PAR meter, once submerged 6" into the water it read 25 - 28.
Maybe disconnecting and repositioning
ballasts a better connection was made possibly stressing the corals.
Could this even be possible? I should also note, the same
day we took the PAR meter back to the club member and he used it exactly
how I used it and the readings he got were correct for his lights.
I am planning on buying a new LED light fixture.
7/19 - A brown algae/film has
started covering the top of the sand bed. The Hammer coral is
mucus and is contracted. It also develops a bubble in the mouth of
polyp. The Zoanthus colonies are contracted (closed and reduced in
size). The Sun coral and Bubble coral are the same too.
Completed a 20
gallon water change.
***During this I did not have test kits for PH, NH3/NH4, NO3, and NO2***
7/21 - Brown algae/film covering bottom already. The glass has
this film on it too. Half of my Zoanthid colony is gone.
The Hammer, Bubble, Sun corals still look bad but aren't worse.
7/24 - Brown algae/film worse on top of sand bed. Corals are in
the same condition. No improvements. Completed 20 gallon
7/28 - Brown algae/film present again. Corals are in the same
condition with no improvements. Zoanthid colonies are gone now.
Completed a 20 gallon water change.
7/30 - Brown algae/film is already present again.
8/3 - Completed a 20 gallon water change. The Sun coral is flaking
away now and the skeleton is exposed.
8/7 - *Test kits arrive* Here are the results:
Temp: 81.5 F
(Removed canopy to allow for better air flow)
NO3: 5 - 10
ppm (Closer to 5 ppm on color chart)(The test is a little tricky
Phosphate: .35 ppm
8/10 - 20 Gallon water change.
Brown algae/film present. The Sun coral is now 80% gone. The
Hammer has not shown improvement. Nothing shows improvement even
when a water change is done. Here are my test results for today
and this is about 6 hours after a water change:
5 - 10 ppm (Closer to 10 ppm on color chart)
*The brown algae or film is also present in the refugium*
Also, all my other corals that were listed are doing great. They
don't show any signs of being affected by this traumatizing month.
I could really use some ideas on what might be going on with the tank.
Some of my own thoughts are maybe I need to get rid of a fish to lessen
the load, add a few new cured live rock pieces, maybe add a new bag of
live sand to the tank and refugium. Just brainstorming a
<Likely (though not sure) the addition of the new/Echinophyllia
triggered a cascade effect amongst your other Cnidarians... don't have
to be in close contact... and the use of a HPO4 contactor exacerbated
the situation... some groups warring w/ others...>
Thank you so much for taking the time to read through all this.
I've read through this website, looked at forums, books, asked local
marine aquarium club members for advice. There has to be something
I'm missing.....my corals don't necessarily grow, but just
stay the same.
<Ahh; a very useful clue. Do please read the article cited,
systematically those linked above>Addition: I do let my saltwater
mix for a few days with a heater and circulation pump as well.
If it matters any, I use Red Sea Coral Pro Salt.
Also, the Colt coral is now smaller than it usually is and the polyps
aren't as expanded. I forgot to mention too that over the past
four months, the pipe organ coral slowly lost all of it's polyps.
It was about the size of a softball. I have a second colony of
pipe organ that is not losing polyps, but not growing either.
Re: re: Frag Blastomussa Wellsi... allelo
Update. After a few days the frag split and it looked like a pie with a
wedge removed. It took a few weeks for it to heal. I did try a second
frag but that one did not cut clean and you can't even tell what it is.
<Give it time>
But it is alive so will just wait and see.
A couple other things happened in my tank. My candy cane had one head
that was bent a bit down and then started to look as if the flesh was
pouring down. It was tear drop shaped and stayed like that for a couple
weeks. I snipped it off and it looks like I now have a candy cane frag.
I have a Platygyra for about 2 years. Never saw it eat so I don't feed
it. And I never saw any tentacles. It started to recede and about half
of it died away. I moved it to a new spot and it has come back nicely
and has recovered around half the loss.
One evening about a half hour after lights went out I looked in my tank
with a light and the Platy had long tentacles flying around. Never saw
this before but it explains why my open brain has been deflated at
times. Just sharing, am
<Thanks for this follow-up. Bob Fenner>
NEED GUIDANCE PLEASE... Read through this and decide... the
clues are here 6/3.5/13
Hello WWM Crew,
I have an ongoing issue that cannot be solved from all the opinions
given to me by seasoned aquarists. I am at the point of being destitute
and I hope you can help me on this. This is my 13 year in salt water
keeping and this is what I have now:
1. 210 gallon reef with 30 gallon
refugium and 20 gallon sump.
2. Three 250 watts MHs with four
actinic PCs ( 94W each); two XHO LED Reef Bright actinic.
3. Octopus Skimmer rated for 250
gallon with 6 power heads; Fluval FX5 rated at 260 gallon for mechanical
4. Water change is 70 gallons once
every 1.5-2 months. Lights changed every six months.
5. Three flame angles <angels>, one
lemon peel, one purple tang, one Majestic angel, one fox face, two
paired maroon clowns (just laid some eggs yesterday), one mandarin, one
Pajama cardinal, one Hippo Tang, seven damsels, two cleaner and one
coral banded shrimp.
6. Various sizes of candy cane,
hammer heads, green star polyps, three clams, two torch corals, one
plate coral, pipe organs, toad stools.
<When you lift the lid on this tank, do you detect an odor?>
7. Once a week, I broadcast feed
with brine, Mysis shrimps along with daily green Nori sheets.
8. Water chemistry is perfect with
weekly testing. If anything a faint trace of nitrate is noted. I tested
for nitrate, nitrite, ammonia, Ph, AKH, CA, salinity.
<Need values, not opinions>
9. This tank is 1.5 years old.
<... then how can it be 13 years old?>
10. I use RO/DI water to top off.
Most of my corals survive for 2-3 months getting really big then
die within a week. The latest disaster involved two of my clams died,
the candy cane is showing signs of tissue death, the plate coral
withered almost overnight and all these looked VERY healthy just a week
All exhibit the same pattern of looking healthy then go into quick
decline. The only corals that survived are the green stars, pipe
organ, toad stool,
<... Sarcophyton/s are the prime suspect here: allelopathy. They're
poisoning the system for their own precedence>
hammer heads but others just don't make it after 3 months during the past
1.5 years. Again, all died after looking very healthy and they go into
quick demise. I was hoping for isolated incidence but after three tries
with same outcome I think there is something wrong but I could not put
my finger on it.
The CAUSES (as advised by experienced aquarists):
1. Stray voltage.
<Nah; the other livestock would be malaffected>
2. Poor quality of salt mix (I use
LFS water mix with Instant Ocean).
3. Toxic materials from the tank
4. Toxic air in home.
<See the above>
5. Chemicals from corals.
<Yes; the most likely>
6. Water is too clean.
7. Contaminated food from unknown
8. Contaminated live rocks from
I am at the point that I am desperate here. I would like to know what
the cause(s) are for my corals demise. There is something that caused
the death but the odd thing is that they all thrived then died. Last
week, my plate got so big that I thought about removing him and the
clams opened up so much that I though the flesh will leave the shells.
This week, all are dead!!!!!!!!!!!!
I appreciate any help you can give me. Thanks. Dai Phan
<... see, read on WWM:
and the linked files above. There are a few approaches to lessening the
affects of Alcyonacean allelopathy... Bob Fenner>
RE: NEED GUIDANCE PLEASE... reef maint./oh, Cnid. incomp.
Hello Mr. Fenner,
This tank is 1.5 years old but I started salt water keeping since 2000.
This is my latest tank. In my previous 120 gallon, the Kenya tree grew
so fast that they are totally out of control.
<... read where you've been referred... re alcyonacean
Strangely, in this new tank they are shunted. So from what you tell me,
I should ditch Instant Ocean mix and ask for higher quality?
<Not necessarily, no>
The smell is bad from the dead clam but others don't cause immediate
vomiting. There is no smell when the lid is open. I will read up on your
<Real good. BobF>
Ricordea Florida all "jumping ship"? Old-enough set up,
changed lights, added Xeniid...
Hello I have a soft coral reef aquarium where I have had some (when I
say some I mean tons) Ricordea florida in. They have been very happy for
3+ years and have created many babies all over the tank
as they meandered their way around it. One and a half months ago I got a
new Ecoxotic Panorama LED fixture. I started with it set low and slowly
increased the light to get everyone hopefully accustomed. All my other
soft corals and mushrooms are happy. My Ricordea all appeared content
until about 3 days ago... The two "originals" were the first to start.
First they made all this mucus at their base and let go. Now all their
"kids" are following suit. No water parameters have changed at all. I
added a new waving hands Xenia,
<This could be "it", or even the Corallimorpharians>
but it wasn't even near them.
<Doesn't have to be. Chemical allelopathy can be profound, even in a
I have moved the "originals" and a few of their oldest "children" to my
refugium to see if they will reattach but seem disinterested.
<Have to be in an entirely different system>
:( Could this still be light stress even though I've had the light over
a month and slowly increased the light over the first month I had it?
<Not at all likely the lighting>
Is there some sort of Ricordea mass exodus occurring here?
<Yes; a survival mechanism for cases/circumstances when there's a need
to move elsewhere (too much of something or not enough)>
Is the apocalypse at hand and only the Ricordea know?
<Heeeee! A possibility. At their scale and from their "point of view",
Thanks for your help!
<See WWM re Xeniid and 'Shroom compatibility and allelopathy. Bob
Re: Ricordea Florida all "jumping ship"? 4/24/13
Thanks for your reply. So would it makes sense then that they were fine
with my pulsing pom/pom Xenia and they are not ok with the waving hands?
<Could be either, both or even neither involved here... "Cascade" events
where something happens w/ established systems, mixes of Cnidarian
groups are quite common... w/ concurrent winners and losers. BobF>
Re: Ricordea Florida all "jumping ship"? 4/24/13
guess best way is to try removing suspects until one is found. I moved
my "original" Ricordeas to my 30G quarantine which luckily is set up
right now holding my friend's fish while he moves.
So they're at least protected while I use their "children" as guinea
pigs... Anything that, other than trying to figure out / remove the
"naughty" one, that I can do to help the Ricordea heal/be happy again?
<Oh yes... check, raise RedOx, dose iodide-ate... B<>
Re: Ricordea Florida all "jumping ship"? Teased Shroom
beh. (predictable) 5/5/13
So this is weird. I removed the "adult" Ricordea florida and was all set
to start trials of removing this and that to figure out who is making
everyone mad... and then all the jumping stopped.
The "adults" reattached to some rubble in the quarantine and now that
there hasn't been any jumping for a week I moved them back and everyone
appears happy again. Which brings me to a theory that I want to jump off
About 2 weeks before it all started there was one big Ricordea near the
top of my live rock, I didn't want it there - wanted to put the Xenia
there actually, teased it off
and moved it to some rubble in the refugium awaiting gifting to a friend
(human not Ricordea friend :P). The cease in jumping also coincides with
the gifting away of said naughty Ricordea. Can Ricordea communicate
distress to one another and actually stimulate their "kids" to jump
<Of a certainty, yes. Bob Fenner>
Oceanic 46 gallon high saltwater aquarium... Induced
Cnidarian allelopathogenic troubles
Hello WWM Crew, my name is Jerry, and this is my very first time
stepping outside the box and asking for help and or opinion. My setup in
question, is an Oceanic 46 gallon high saltwater aquarium with lots of
life.Ive read that 24" is the maximum depth for a 250watt mh bulb.
<Mmm, not really, no... for what purpose/s?>
With that said,i currently run a 14k 250 bulb on one side and a 13k 175
watt bulb on the opposite side,both bulbs manufactured be Aqualine.In
addition I also have 1 30 watt led and 1 10 watt led in the 450nm
spectrum,with 2 T12 30 watt 420nm fluorescent by Coralife.Do I have
enough light to support and sustain life in a tank thats 24" high and
37" long and 13" wide?
<Depends; mostly on what that life is... the only real "way" to know is
to try and see... One can use PAR/PUR meter/s to measure the useful
light at depths... The reality is that this is likely sufficient
"light/ing" for most all life one would want to keep>
My issue is im not seeing lots of growth,but some growth.Am I not
<There can (very likely) be other factor/s than light, lighting limiting
growth of aquatic life...>
We have 60 plus pounds of live rock,4 clowns,1 yellow tang,1 blue tang,
<... both these Surgeons need more room than this volume>
2 green tips anemones,one yellowish carpet anemone approx 4" in
<Uhh... anemones often do very poorly mixed together, especially in
small volumes as yours>
pink tipped elegance,several types of zoas,mushrooms,frogspawn,
<... Trouble... allelopathy very likely an issue here... Do read here:
and the linked files above re the Compatibility of all the Cnidarian
groups you list having>
the zebra clam and a flaming scallop.
<... don't really live in captivity... Look up the name of this Pen
shell on WWM and read>
The one and only coral accelerating down hill is the daisy polyps or
pipe organ.For the past couple months its shown no significant
growth,and is beginning to slowly crumble with fewer and fewer polyps
each day.Is it the lighting causing this coral to not thrive?
<... not likely; no. Your jamming all this life together willy nilly is
the root issue here>
My tank is just approximately 1 year 4 ths old.My skimmer is for a 220
gallon with ozone,venturi style,with a 20gallon sump below.My uv light
is in a seperate housing fed by a slow flow powerhead and then just
simply returns to the sump,very simple setup.My wife thinks i spend too
much time watching,nothings going to happen is her thought,but the fish
have always been healthy and so far we have only lost one fish,the dwarf
angel,approx 4 months ago,and all of our livestock were small when we
purchased them,again speaking of the fish only.Everybody has grown an
inch ot two.The Coral Beauty had a small white growth on its lips,so we
removed the fish and put the fish in quarantine,and was able to find
info on your forums that had identified the growth as a bacterial
infection,we treated the fish,unfortunately several days later the fish
passed.The gt anemone originally was just 1,but split into a second
specimen as time went on.I have a traditional style overflow basket as
well.Several power heads made by Koralia are scattered in the tank.I
maintenance this tank in the evening,lots of removable pre filters
scattered throughout the filter system that I remove and clean on bi
daily basis.Any suggestions on my lighting question would be
<Search, read on WWM...>
any additional info on my set up,good or bad,would be appreciated as
well.Btw,i do not at this time have any type of drip or feeding system
incorporated into this setup,including a calcium reactor. Small water
changes,supplements,and trace elements with 20 plus elements added,and
the proper food for all animals.The tangs feed off two sources of algae
growing freely in the tank,and its on two rocks that are in front of two
small powerheads,they have to work to get the food,but,keeps the food
plentiful at the same time,i know if I allow them to graze on those
rocks all the time,they will eat all of it,lol.Thank you for any help
you may have to offer.Jerry
<... please review your writing, send through a grammar checker, fix
before sending it on to us. Bob Fenner>
Coral Toxins (allelopathy)
Hey there Crew:
My tank has been up and running for close to 3 years and I am loving it!
I have a simple question today for your immensely useful and resourceful
brains. I'm sure the answer is not a straight forward one but I am
looking for a push in one direction.
My tank has for the most part been healthy and doing well.
I have however noticed over the course of the last few months that
adding new pieces of SPS or LPS corals has been often met with less than
Several heads of either Hammer, Torch, edges of Chalice and to some extent
Acro frags have died or retracted. The LPS heads often look like brown
film begins to cover them and eventually they just slough off.
My tank is a 125g, all parameters are always stable and in line.
Sg - 1.025
Ca - 420ppm
KH - 8-9
Temp - 78-80
Phosphates - close to 0
Nitrate/ite - 0
<The usual statement here re the need for some NO3, HPO4 w/
PH - 8.4
I use actinic t5 bulbs x4 with HID Halide 150w 14k x3 spot type bulbs.
These are replaced every 6 months and 1 yr respectively. I have plenty
of random flow with mp40s and a great skimmer in a Deltec sc 2060.
My fish stock includes
hippo tang- 6"
Fowler Tang - 6"
Watanabei Angel - male 5", female x2 - 2.5"
Tomato clown x2 - paired and hosting BTA
Tomini Tang - 3"
Yellow Tang - 4"
2 bar Rabbit Fish - 3"
All fish get along great and are healthy and happy and have been together
for about 2 years.
So to my question at hand. I am wondering how much of an effect my
Corallimorphs or my rather large (in my opinion) BTA are having on these SPS
and LPS corals.
<Could be quite a bit... to moderate>
I can easily remove the rock containing the large hairy mushrooms which
started as one and now number about 8, including the one my tuxedo urchin
carries around after it got dislodged off the rock.
The BTA can't go, to <too> large and attached to a large piece of rock and
has the clowns etc. I have pictures of the 2 but am really just
wondering if you could see this as being the possible source of my problem.
I have begun to use Units of ClearFX Pro
to see if I can notice any change. I was not using any carbon prior to
this. The BTA is about 10" across during daytime hours, the Shrooms
are all around 4-5".
Thanks for the help as always,
<I'd adopt an isolation (system, aka quarantine) and mix water back and
forth protocol for any/all new Cnidarian purchases, to ease allelopathy...
See WWM re. Bob Fenner>
Info on coral Compatibility 11/19/12
Thanks really appreciate your answer regarding my Elegance Coral, I have
removed it from my tank. (didn't want to kill or further stress the
Read the link U have provided me regarding allelopathogenic... ref. from
my previous Email
"I have other corals that seem fine (Magnificent Anemone, Zoanthids,
Mushrooms, Trumpet, Finger Leather Coral, Toadstool Mushroom, Xenia,
Flowerpot, Frogspawn, Orange Sea Sponge) "
"<Mmm, well, these aren't all corals, and many are dangerously
allelopathogenic... Not compatible. Could be an/the issue w/ your
Catalaphyllia. Umm, read here:
and the linked files above, till you grasp the gist...>"
My Question is that, If I have maintained a safe distance between the
coral as they don't touch or get in contact with each other, even then
it can be a issue to keep them in one tank.
<Oh yes; still a very big potential issue. Anemones can/do move at times
hazardously, corals can/do grow onto each other, have "fighting bits"
that extend to keep their space, and some produce prodigious amounts of
toxic chemicals to accomplish the same. Best not to "disturb" all by
keeping the system stable, optimized, keep to a regular maintenance
routine; not add other Cnidarians>
Also My LFS says; problem starts when any of your stinging Coral, or
Anemone dies until they are healthy and acclimatized to your tank,
<Usually the case; though far from always>
Pls guide me through this Compatibility issue.....
<Go back, read where you were referred to; the linked files above... by
group, that include the life you have here>
I also know if the anemone dies it badly pollutes the water, but so far
he's doing fine. I have it for 7months now initially it was bit bleached
(white) but with regular feeding it has shown up its colour
<Keep reading! Bob Fenner>
Crew..... Mixing Cnid.s 8/5/12
I would really appreciate your opinion with this one as it wasn't
well represented in the FAQs I felt. I have a reef tank with growing
corals, Galaxea, Open Brain, Orange Sun, Duncan, Candy Cane. All are
doing well. I would like to add a coral from my favorite genus Euphyllia
to this (Probably Euphyllia ancora, or Euphyllia glabrescens). However,
these are aggressive species, and I don't want to drop a nuke into the
tank. Should I wait until I can set up another system? With aggressive
water changes could
I keep the allelopathy from being harmful?
<Do the usual "Boris Karloff" mixing of some water twixt your
new/isolation/quarantine tank and the main display of a cup or so back
and forth daily for a few weeks to introduce the combatants... and see
if they'll get along consequently. BobF>
Re: Gorgonian/cleaner shrimp question, now stkg. Cnid.s in a
38 gal. w/ a BTA 7/29/12
Hi Bob: Thanks again for your advice. I have given away the
flowerpot and the zoos, which from reading WWM seemed to be the most
likely conflict with the anemone.
My BTA had an almost immediate reaction, bubbling much more than usual
and staying out until the moon lights came one,
which he (it) does not typically do. I would like to get a couple
of new corals and would appreciate your suggestions as to what would
work with a BTA without creating havoc. To recap: I now have a 38
gallon with a mated pair of clownfish, a BTA, live rock, live sand, aqua
Maxx hob skimmer, aqua clear filter (50 gallon), 2 shrimp, some hermits,
snails, a couple of very small clams, a couple of mushrooms, a
troubled gorgonian and one AI sol super blue led unit which is
suspended above the tank. I do weekly water changes of at least
10% and dose ESV calcium and 1 drop of Lugol's once or twice a week.
Salinity 1.025, water temp 78-80 degrees, ph 8.4, calcium 380,PO4 0.
Most of the info i have found suggests what corals don't work, so i was
hoping for guidance on what will, with the BTA and with my lighting.
<Actually... in this size/shape system I would stick w/ what you have
Cnidarian wise. Wait till you have more room to start mixing these
disparate species together; or until the Entacmaea is elsewhere. Bob
Re: Gorgonian/cleaner shrimp question
I will follow your advice again - thank you - I am planning on getting a
larger system, (I know everyone says when faced with the prospect of
having to confess to you to having an anemone in a relatively small
system, but I really am) . Thanks again and thank you for such a
<Certainly welcome. BobF>
Coral compatibility/Allelopathy 4/22/12
I have a 55 gallon with a 30 gal refugium that is 7 years old. I am just
getting into acquiring corals but was wondering if there is a coral
<Mmm, not so much compatibility but degree of allelopathy effects.>
I have seen one for fish and inverts. I obtained a green Sinularia about
2 months ago. It was in the QT for 3 weeks and was doing great.
I put it in the main tank about 10 inches away from a green star polyp
that I have had for years. The green Sinularia shrunk. I've read that
they will do that for a short time as this is part of their "growing"
period. But this went on for about 3 weeks. Last night I moved the
Sinularia to the other side of the tank and this morning it began to
unshrink and it is looking better than it has for weeks. Could it have
been the green star polyps?
I've read that they are very aggressive and then I have read that they
are the least aggressive.
<Can depend on the species as there are several species of Star Polyps.
As far as allelopathy is concerned, some of the worst offenders are
Sarcophyton, Lobophytum, Euphyllia, and Lemnalia species. Some good
choices for allelopathic compatibility would be Xenia, Briareum,
Dendronephthya, Anthelia, and Capnella species.>
Thank you...as always you guys are the best!!!
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Sudden fish/invert die off... Cnid.
allelopathy cascade event
Thank you so much for this great resource, I've learned so much by
browsing through this site--you perform an invaluable service.
Unfortunately I couldn't find the help I needed directly and am in
the midst of what I would consider an emergency, hoping to salvage what
life I can.
<I hope so too>
Late last year I began setting up a marine aquarium to get back into
and get my kids interested in the hobby. They now each have their
freshwater setups, and I have my FOWLR that I was ready to spruce up
with a couple "easy" coral now that the dust had
settled. I had a fair amount of experience starting about 15
years ago with a successful set of marine aquariums that I kept until I
began raising a human family, but very little experience with
Things seemed to be going very smoothly until I tried to cross the line
into mixed reef territory. Within a few days, I suddenly
encountered a problem which has just devastated my two month old
aquarium with an almost instant overnight die-off. I’m looking
for advice and help in identifying the culprit (beyond just me).
Here is the setup:
29 Gallon all-glass, FOWLR cycled in Jan 2012.
DIY 30" wide 4" x 6" internal overflow/refugium w/
2-1.5" bulkheads 10 gal sump containing live rock
"Touchy" Red Sea Classic in sump Protein Skimmer/Rio
Rio 2100 return pump (Mag 7 upgrade still in box),
<I'd get this out, ditch the Rio>
Coralife PC fixture with 2-96W lamps (one 10k bulb) actinic for other
side in the mail
30 lbs live rock, 5 bunches of red Gracilaria algae,
3 Camel Shrimp - (in refugium),
5 Red Legged Hermit Crabs (1 in fuge),
1 Cleaner Shrimp,
2 Margarita Snails,
2 Astrea Snails (1 in fuge),
2 Banded Trochus Snails,
1 Nassarius Snail,
1 Bumblebee Snail,
1 Hawaiian Feather Duster,
1 Yellow Watchman Goby,
1 Bicolor Angel,
1 Royal Gramma,
1 Pajama Cardinal,
1 Dragon Eye Zoanthid Polyp Colony Frag (~50 polyps), added 2/29/12
1 Mushroom Leather Coral (4-5"), added 2/29/12 also from Petco
2 Zebra Dartfish, added 3/2/12
T=79-82F, pH=8.2, NH3=0, N02<0.25, N03=10-30ppm, SG=1.024-5,
<I'd get/use a kit for Mg as well>
When the two coral were first added on 2/29 the leather opened up on
the first day, and most polyps on the Zoanthid opened. I changed
locations the next day to put the leather higher in the tank and the
Zoanthid fragment in the substrate. I noticed the base of the
leather had what appeared to have lots of garbage from previous home or
possibly necrotic tissue. The leather closed up and only a few
tentacles began to re-extend. Nitrates measured about 20 ppm
before adding the coral but had risen to around 60 when I tested while
floating the soon to be added Dartfish a few days later on 3/2. I
did a major water change before adding the fish, replacing 20 gallons
(~65%), but nitrates still measured about 20-25 ppm. I did a 4
gal water change later that day. pH meter readings have stayed within
8.15 and 8.25 with a slight nighttime drop. I supplemented with a
capful of purple-up and a shrimp molting inspired me to add a drop of
iodine (Iodion). The one drop may have mistakenly become a dozen
or more drops when I opened the flip-cap while holding the bottle over
the tank allowing a portion collected in the cap to spill. How
bad is this? Could it cause a major fish/invert die-off?
<Not likely real trouble, no>
I conjecture that either my attempt at feeding newly hatched brine or
irritation from stirring up the substrate (or just shock) caused the
leather to begin sloughing off skin.
This happened almost continuously for a couple days. I used a
large coral feeding turkey baster to blow off the dead skin and try to
remove the waste from the system. On the morning of 3/4 the
leather appeared to still have some loose skin but nearly all of its
tentacles were extended. The Zoanthid polyps were in equal
quantities, closed, open, and partially open.
My fish however, were clearly stressed and I noticed that all of my
snails had fallen off of the glass. I got one margarita to
re-attach but that was short-lived. Upon further inspection I
found my cleaner shrimp dead in the corner and I began worrying about
whether the leather had given off a toxin assuming it was stressed.
<Both it and the Zoas>
I can't find anything that says what type of toxin this
might be and whether this can affect the fish/crustaceans, or if it
only impacts other coral as growth inhibitors.
<Oh, there's a great deal of literature detailing the
allelopathogens of both these groups of Cnidarians... a huge number of
terpenoids and more>
While watching the tank shortly after turning on the lights, the Royal
Gramma all of a sudden spasmed from halfway across the tank and drove
itself into the corner laying motionless upside down. I quickly
used a 5 gallon bucket half full of new saltwater from previous day as
a makeshift quarantine tank, but the gramma did not appear to be alive
anymore. I also removed some of the snails and crabs to the
quarantine tank, added a capful of Amquel, an airstone, and some
activated carbon and hoped for a recovery. A couple of the snails
which initially crawled on the wall of the quarantine bucket released
about an hour later. In the mean time I scrambled to
add some activated carbon to the main tank by wrapping a couple small
handfuls in cheese cloths and tying them off in front of the return
I also removed the leather coral to another 5 gallon bucket with some
older water and a very large Acropora skeleton that came out of the
tank when the coral went in (hoping it is hosting some bio
I know many are, but I thought the dragon eye Zoanthid that I bought
wasn't one of the toxic variety, but since I wasn't sure I
eventually removed it from the tank as well (to the bucket with the
leather and Acropora skeleton). This Zoanthid appears to be a
common variety with a brown to brick red center portion that has a
light blue "pupil" in the middle and green
"eyelashes". The fragment looks like a slice of pie
about four inches long. A few of the polyps were clearly damaged
in the picture I took while it was at the store.
My bicolor angel
<Needs, needed more room than this>
got removed to quarantine mid-day along with one of the zebra
just before a major water change. The watchman goby and the
other Dartfish were still alive but headfirst together in a tight
crevice between the sand and the live rock. The water change
replaced 25 gallons (~80%). Around midnight the
bicolor angel was alive in the quarantine bucket but swimming
erratically, sometimes sideways and upside down.
This morning the angel had passed and the zebra Dartfish had taken on
the poor swimming behavior. The pajama cardinal in the main tank
seemed somewhat ok, but still not interested in food. I could not
locate the watchman goby or zebra. The Featherduster radiole had
also become wrinkled/curly and slow to respond to light changes. It no
longer points into the current.
I am at work today but will be home soon, not optimistic that anything
will survive this ordeal. I'm obviously crushed by these
losses, what should I do?
<What's that refrain from the bloated Billy Idol song?
Was this a palytoxin poisoning
<In part, yes>
or iodine overdose or something else. Was it the leather or
the Zoanthid colony.
<Both; a combo>
If any of my fish survive this ordeal, should I put the leather and
Zoanthids back in after being in a bucket for a day, or is that just
asking for trouble. Is the carbon contaminated--should I throw it
out or can it be re-activated?
<... they need/ed to be slowly acclimated to each other>
Again, thank you for your expertise and help, you can trust that it is
<Let's see... Could have you look up on WWM using the string:
"Zoanthid or Soft Coral Allelopathy, Cascade Event"... or,
let's have you read here first:
and the linked files above... including Compatibility FAQs and where
they lead you for Alcyoniids and Zoanthideans. Bob
Re: Sudden fish/invert die off
Thank you very much for the suggestions, I am working through the
search results and volumes of recommended reading, and have learned
<No such word>
I learned some key terms which I hope to help me continue my
search, and have learned that my horror story isn't as uncommon as
I originally thought. A one liner I read said that if a
Zoanthid and Sarcophyton (my situation exactly) are suspected, it is
the Sarcophyton that is the more likely culprit.
<Can/could be either one or both>
Based on this I've been trying to figure out how best to
"neutralize" the Sarcophyton terpenoids.
<Mmm, the best is the steady acclimation mentioned before...
otherwise, large, frequent water changes, some chemical
Unfortunately I don't have a degree in organic chemistry, and my
searches have turned up more explanations of what has probably happened
than explanations of what to do next.
<The more one looks, the more there is to see>
With the exception of the shriveled Hawaiian feather duster which has
ejected itself from its tube (and still spasming on the substrate), all
others were lost. :-( Along the way I did two ~85% water
changes and removed the dead snail/crab shells, fishing out detritus
with a brine shrimp net. I hung activated carbon bags in the
water flow path, and ran an ozonizer into an airstone (Enaly OZX-300U)
for about a half hour (no ORP meter, so decided maybe not the best
<If you know the output in mg of O3/hr....>
I've skimmed a fair amount of gunk from the tank as well although
the skimmer never really worked consistently. I had hoped
the tank might have been better considering how long my watchman goby
held out and considering the feather duster was still (marginally)
alive. I tried adding a margarita snail to the tank to see if it
was still toxic,
and it let go of the glass within a few minutes. I would
prefer to not dry the tank and bleach everything out, but think this
may be the only option?
<The best likely... otherwise leaving empty for a good long
My reading also suggests that elevated temperatures might aid in the
evaporation of the terpenoids, any idea how high would be needed?
<Mid 80's F.>
I have now raised the tank temp to 84 and trying to go a bit
higher. Would love to be able to salvage my rock without killing
the whole tank.
<Change all the water out for now, re-fill>
I'm surprised it was so persistent because I thought this
chemical warfare was a reasonably common or even regular occurrence
within a reef tank and the carbon "deals" with it.
<No, it does not entirely>
Am I wrong? If so, any other products I should try, maybe
just more carbon, or is it all futile and going to take longer than a
bleach and re-cycle anyway?.
<Up to you... I'd just change the water...>
It sure would be
nice to not have to wait out a cycle again.
Thanks again for all the help. -- John
Re Everything keeps dying and we don't know why
Thanks so much for your reply. First of all thank you so much for the
information on the Zoanthids and Ricordea.
I didn't realize that would be a problem.
<Can be, yes.>
I think the best thing is to send the Ricordea back to the store until
we get a bigger system since it currently sits in what should be an
optimal location in the tank. I've waited a few days on purpose to
see how the new snails would do. Good News! They are still
alive. Well, 3 out of 4 are still alive. I can't find the 4th
but that doesn't necessarily mean he's dead. I left them
in the tank that night figuring I would wake up to find them all being
cleaned up by the crabs and Nassarius, especially since one of the
Nassarius attacked a Margarita not long after I put them in the
tank. Instead they were quite content ON THE ROCKS!
It's a miracle. Now I'm not sure about the
voltage. We unplugged everything and about every 30 minutes
plugged in one electrical component to see if there was any reaction. I
turned on the recirculating pump first, then the heater, the protein
skimmer pump and then the next morning the powerhead. It has now
been a full week and everybody seems happy. I'm so confused.
Anyway, to answer your questions:1. Yes, our tests do match the LFS.2.
The bacteria issue was discovered by a process of elimination. When
there seemed to be nothing else to try (change of filter media, SeaGel,
lighting adjustments, etc...) I happened to come across an article
discussing the role of algae in the absence of good bacteria. We had
actually reduced the presence of the bacteria by scrubbing the rock
weekly, trying to get rid of the hair algae and there was no
way/opportunity to replenish. So we added a horrible smelling
dose of bacteria and bingo, it solved the problem.
Now if I could just do the same with this slime.
<Was not aware of any slime/Cyanobacteria, do search on our
3. We have checked for voltage and did not get a reading, but I do
realize it may not be constant, so the possibility is still there. So
I'm still nervous about adding new creatures. 4. We do have
the GFCI outlet and we have all components plugged into a surge
protector/timer. 5. We get our water from either the LFS or we buy RODI
filtered water at the grocery store since our LFS isn't so local at
45 min away.
<Be less expensive to buy your own RO filter. I've found
and use a unit for 100.00 that works exceedingly well. Take a
Overall, I'm thrilled about the snails but still pretty
anxious about adding anything. I think we'll wait a while and
enjoy what seems to be happy. Thanks, again and if you
happen to think of anything else, we're all ears!
<May want to be sure no toxins are used around the tank such as
Windex, etc. James (Salty Dog)>
Polyps not opening 1/31/12
So here is
what's happening... A 90 gallon reef with 2x 175W metal halide and
2x 96w PC bulbs, lots of live rock, small sand bed(2in max), sump with
skimmer and chiller... the problem is some polyps have not been opening
fully for some time now...(About 3 months) The other corals
(Blastomussa, Euphyllia, Lobophyllia, Caulastrea, Favia, Trachyphyllia,
etc etc etc...) are all growing and acting "healthy and
normal"... Any ideas?
<...? As to cause? What are these "polyps" as in Cnidarian
I conduct a 20-30 gallon water change with RO/DI water every two weeks,
and as I said before, the rest of the corals, fish and inverts are
thriving... The light bulbs are up for replacement, but everything else
seems ok... The polyps in question are spread throughout the aquarium
at different heights, once again unsure of what is affecting these
Water test results:
<Too high... see WWM>
Salinity(SG): 34ppt (1.025)
Temperature: 78.8 degrees F
The tank is not overfed(according to the owner), however it is heavily
<Mmm, then likely some form of allelopathy at work here. Read:
and the linked files above>
The nitrates and phosphates have been on the rise over the last few
months(since the defeat of the hair algae plague) ... We are discussing
vodka dosing or a nitrate reactor as the owner does not want to reduce
the fish population...
<... one approach>
Another item I thought would be worth mentioning is that the owner
informed me he has not been dosing additional elements (iodine,
strontium, calcium) for a while now... If you could offer any
suggestions I would greatly appreciate it.
(PS I will send a picture this evening when I have a moment near a
<... Learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM... Read where
you've been referred. Bob Fenner>
important.... More mysterious SW reef losses... Coral allelopathy poss.
I recently added Euphyllia and Duncanopsammia to my reef tank. The
first days went well, yes I know, I should have quarantined. I have
only Euphyllia in the tank and several fish: 4 Green Chromis, 3
Black-Bar Chromis, 1 Tri-color Fairy Wrasse, 1 Percula Clown, 1 Striped
Damsel, 1 Watchman Goby, 1 Royal Gramma. Well, with perfect water for
no reason the fish started to die. First it was just two missing
Chromis which I don't have a covered tank so I thought they had
been spooked in the night and jumped, but I wasn't concerned. The
next day the Gramma looked awful and wasn't eating. I left one set
of lights off and did a water test. The next morning he and two of the
Black-Bar Chromis were gone. I was worried now but everything else
seemed okay and was eating; had good color; breathing normally etc.
nothing was picked at each other and my invertebrates looked great.
Last morning the Wrasse and Clown were gone.
<... I don't like this>
The goby didn't look good at all and I began to panic. I set up a
10 gallon with fresh mixed water and some of the rock from the main
tank. I wanted some bio. filtration so it wasn't completely from
scratch. Well, he is looked better now but should I move the other fish
<If there's room>
I didn't think that Euphyllia usually fought with allelopathy
and usually went with sweeper tentacles is this untrue? I have had a
nice Bubble Coral with no problem and love the Torch and Duncan but
like to have fish too, what would you recommend?
<Recommend? Perhaps the use of a good activated carbon, large water
Could I add Frogspawn?
<Not directly, no... Are you familiar w/ my olde ppt pitch on
Please comb through... esp. the part re quarantine/acclimation... the
mixing of water back and forth>
I'm not mixing Soft Corals and LPS so I thought I was safe,
should I just focus on Euphyllia and get rid of the Duncans? I guess
the one thing I have learned is have a quarantine/hospital tank on hand
and I will not make this mistake again.
<Read... then we'll talk/chat. Bob Fenner>
Re Coral Allelopathy 1/12/12
So it was suggested that I read the ppt about Allelopathy. After
reading it I have several questions. The three corals I have are
The fish had to be removed and I was wondering when they are likely to
<A few weeks generally...>
They are all LPS and two are Euphyllia. The other being Ducanopsammia.
I would like to add another Euphyllia but with turmoil already going on
I am waiting. Should I just get out of the hobby?
<Up to you>
I mean, I love it but I don't want to be acting as a slaughter
house for the fish or corals. Everything was going well and I thus far
have gotten everything running more smoothly until now. I like all the
corals but should I just get rid of all and start over?
The first coral I had in the tank was a Bubble and it has grown and
looks great. All of them do. I try to read the answers to all the
questions I have on your site but then with this all the FAQs seem to
be about people who had 'reef garden syndrome'. Do I have
I was trying to avoid Soft Corals and SPS. I have decided Euphyllia are
my favorite so if I need to get rid of something I would prefer to keep
them. I wanted a Frogspawn at some point, when could I get it? Thanks,
<Just newcomers need to be acclimated per the ppt... and
accompanying linked files above. BobF>
Just some questions. Cnid. allelopathy ongoing 1/16/12
Well, I thought about it and tossed the idea around for the past week
and decided I want to stay in the hobby. Even though things are still
I intend to pull through them. So here is my first question. My three
corals seem to be doing better after the allelopathy started and
The Bubble Coral and Duncan are looking good but I have some problems
with the Torch. I mashed some fish into a paste that I put in the water
above him and it quickly broke apart and little pieces rained on him.
His tentacles acted as though he was catching some of the pieces but I
am worried that really didn't get any. I have tried feeding 2X3mm
pieces but they always end up on the sand later. I try to dose with
Kent ZooPlex twice a week but is this enough assuming he catches a few
<May well be getting a good deal of nutrition just through chemical
I know there is some sort of smaller food in the tank because I have
found tons of these small shrimp like creatures in the water around the
rock work. I don't wish to mix any Soft, LPS, or SPS corals but
would love to add Euphyllia ancora.
This wouldn't be for several weeks but how long would the
<Highly variable sometimes just days, others, months>
Would it subside within two weeks with frequent water changes?
Should I just be content with the three corals I have now and hope they
reach a large size to make up for the bare spot?
<Oh yes; very possible>
The tank is 55 gal. All water tests have checked out. The fish are
staying in my quarantine tank at the moment. When would it be safe to
<... mix the water... a few weeks>
The fish that are in the tank are Yellow Watchman Goby, Blue Green
Chromis, and Four Stripe Damsel.
I intend to get a Percula Clown, and Royal Gramma later. What is a good
show piece fish to add to this?
<Survey, go over WWM re the species you list, the
"Compatibility FAQs" for each for ideas>
I had a Coral Beauty Angel for a while but it refused to eat no matter
what I put in the tank. I am giving up on Angels for now but wondered
if there was anything you could recommend. I say that because when I do
my own research it seems that I get fish that should eat and be happy
but the situation ends in disaster. I know my tank is small so
Butterflies, Tangs, Triggers, Eels, Large Angels, Idols (ha ha what a
joke, better left in the ocean), and Lion Fish are out of the question,
so what about some sort of schooling fish?
How long should I quarantine the fish before adding them?
<... depends on the species, their condition... Please see
I feel like four weeks is maybe long enough and I know people that only
do for about one week. Thanks for all you do, have a GREAT day!
Question about coral
<Cnidarian> allelopathy 1/11/12
Hi WWM Crew,
I have read your sections on coral allelopathy, and I found them very
helpful. I have had some issues in the past which I suspect to be
caused by allelopathy. I am designing a system to house various reef
animals, that would not normally do well together, in separate tanks,
all plumbed together. So while I do not need to worry about direct
contact and sweeper tentacles, <chemical> allelopathy is still a
My question is this: What corals or other animals should I avoid if I
wish to minimize the chances of chemical warfare hurting my delicate
<Posted... some groups of Cnidarians much more so than others... but
w/ careful addition (less to more toxic/stinging), taking ones time,
mixing water during quarantine... Please read here:
and the linked files above>
I know that leather corals are the obvious group to avoid.
What about corralimorphs and palythoas?
<Both potentially more allelopathogenic than
you have written that they can pose major problems for SPS, but is that
just because of direct contact, or because of chemicals they release
which can affect the whole system?
and what about my 12" RBTA?
does it release chemicals which may harm delicate corals (that are not
within reach of the tentacles)?
<Yes; but much more so Cnidocyst involvement. See WWM re mixing
Actinarians w/ other Cnidarian Classes>
Thanks! Your advice is crucial to the design of my reef system.
<Best advice... "take your time"... develop a written
plan... add organisms/colonies in a conscious fashion... through mixing
waters back and forth from quarantine and the main/display systems...
Die Off, reef...
Sorry to keep questioning you but something new came up. My 55 gallon
tank seems to be going through a mass extinction.
Over the past two days I have lost five fish. It is well past cycled as
it has been running and stocked for well over four years. Water tests
show that my Calcium has decreased by about 60 ppm. I lack a test for
KH or Mg. I recently added two new stony corals to the system and five
<What coral species? How acclimated, introduced?>
The fish I chose were: 1 Fairy Wrasse, 3 Black Bar Chromis, 1 Watchman
Goby. I was most concerned about loosing <losing> my goby due to
an aggressive Royal Gramma and Percula Clown.
However, the Goby looks great and I lost my Gramma and the Clown is
currently checking out. The night before I lost two Green Chromis; and
tonight two of the Black Bars decided life wasn't worth living, or
something was wrong. I don't think this is a water chemistry
problem because my corals all look really good. Bubble fully inflated
with good color, Duncan both looking good, and Torch is also well.
<These are likely the source/cause of loss>
The Torch and Duncan both ate a tiny piece of fish last night! My
feather Dusters and Serpent Star are also healthy. The fish I am
loosing are considered hardy and aren't being picked on to death.
They seem to loose most of their color and then overnight die.
My clown was feeding well last night and this morning he looks
horrible. I was thinking maybe if the fish were being stung by the
Euphyllia sweeper tentacles
<Perhaps... more likely killed through chemical allelopathy>
because I have no idea what is going on. I have been battling some
lately and did another offensive on it last night which was successful.
Also, when I received the Bubble coral it had two 'strange round
discs' on it. I was looking online when I bought my Torch and
Duncan and noticed for the first time what Zoanthids look like.
<... can be troublesome>
I then found out that they don't like to play nice with other
corals. There are currently 14 now. Can I remove them from the rock and
sell them or something because they do have nice little green
<See WWM re... can be dangerous>
Thanks for everything.
Corals in the same family
being kept in close proximity 10/27/11
I did a search, did not find a definitive answer
Can I keep my hairy mushrooms, Discosoma, Rhodactis, and Ricordea in
What about different species of Acans?
I know most LPS corals will attack each other.
<And most Euphylliids...>
It seems SPS corals do get along very close together as long as they
are not touching
What about different Zoa's for example if I keep two color morphs
of Palythoa close together, or two smaller Zoas close together, or if
you keep one Paly and one smaller stain close
I know about chemical warfare and sweeper tentacles....and it is
advised to keep corals as far apart as possible. But now days people
want to have a full reef and I have so many exotic expensive! frags
I've collected that I want to keep close together on a Eshopps frag
rack and am worried.
One last question it seems that some of my corals are being eaten by a
Longspine urchin that was behaving very well when he was smaller. Now
I'm seeing branches of Acropora going white overnight, could it be
<Might be. Bob Fenner>
Re: Corals in the same family being kept in close proximity
I feel like im at a club and a hot girl is teasing me when I read your
<How 'bout a drink? And/or reading on WWM re Cnidarian
Re: Corals in the same family being kept in close proximity
haha! thanks for the info
<Welcome Dinesh. B>
Update on Algae and Coral
Hi Bob and Crew,
I've been following the daily faqs pretty much daily for some time
now and always appreciate the great updates and the contributions from
all the crew.
I came across this article today regarding updated research in Fiji
about the chemical warfare between various forms of algae and sps
corals and thought I'd pass it on.
I found the similarity between the processes described in the article
occurring in our reefs and what happens when we have a cyanobacteria or
algae situation in our tanks very informative. I also enjoyed the
description of the Rabbitfish "quivering" in anticipation of
eating the noxious algae.
<'It's certainly a novel finding,' says John Bruno, a
marine ecologist at the University of North Carolina, "
Nah... not novel at all. Have written and read re this phenomenon for
Thanks again for being that great resource for all of us.
<Thank you, Bob Fenner>
comp., plus anemone... rdg. 10/9/11
I have a question.
I have a couple of beautiful sps/Acro frags which are located on one
side of my 46 gallon bow front, it also has a small colony of polyps in
the center of my tank. Today I added a leather toadstool softie to the
side of the tank with nothing on it.
I have read in some places it's ok to keep sps and softies together
and in others its not, which is it?
<Generally better to not mix>
Also my anemone
<And worse this>
has gone into hiding as of today (though still eating and his bubble
tips looks good he has kind of hid upside-down and under a rock which
is unusual for it) could this be because if the toadstool?
<Yes... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/alcyoncompfaqs.htm
and here: http://wetwebmedia.com/AnemCompF5.htm
Thank you in advance.
<Please learn to, use the search tool, indices on WWM. Searching,
reading ahead of purchasing will save you money and troubles. Bob
two fish dead from same
or different issue(s)? Anemone/"Coral" incomp.
Hello! Thank you for taking a bit of time to read about something that
has been racking my mind this week. My husband and I have recently
gotten back into the hobby after a stressful getting-out-of-the-hobby
experience 2 years ago. The new tank is a small 30 g cube with LED
lights and is 6 months
<Ok; welcome back!>
The inhabitants have been in the tank for 3-4 months and include one
tank bred black clown (a juvenile), one algae blenny (a juvenile)
<Mmm, depending on species the last will require direct feeding in
time... this volume won't produce sufficient foods>
and after lots of research and observation, one scooter blenny that
eats frozen like a champ. Last week we introduced a long tentacle
<Mmm, may well eat your blenny and Scooter>
Unfortunately, as the anemone buried its foot it must have caught
itself on a piece of rock-- once we noticed the rip in it's side it
was removed form the tank. The clown never took to the anemone-- she
has a staked out territory in the middle of the tank next to a
frogspawn. This week, the scooter blenny and clown have died.
<... perhaps related to the Anemone, maybe interaction w/...>
The scooter went first-- his body condition seemed nice and fat
including both his head and abdomen. He ate every day until I found him
one afternoon stiff and in the grips of a hermit crab. I found this
upsetting since I have made every attempt possible to ensure he ate his
frozen everyday (and he did), while also including adding bottled
copepods for his grazing pleasure. He wasn't going to starve on my
time. We immediately did param checks and nothing out of the ordinary
was seen (nitrite and nitrate
0, ammonia 0, ph normal *sorry, I don't remember this one
salinity 1.021-1.022, temp 80) .
<Mmm, fine for the fishes listed; not so for the Euphyllia or
Not soon after the clown started acting "funny". She moved
out of her normal territory and started exploring new areas of the
tank, and stopped being as aggressive as before (she was a hermit crab
bully and a finger biter). We had changed the flow of the tank to help
accommodate the new anemone (the flow changes from one side to the
other via a computer controlled valve on a regular interval) and we had
originally blamed her new behavior on the new flow pattern. After a few
days, the clown moved to a
hollow in the sand and was having what seemed like little clown
<Good descriptions of bad behavior>
she would swim fast and erratically but without purpose. A white gooey
substance started to cover her body. I did not want to stress her
further since we had our hands in the tank quite a bit during the
anemone issues so we did not remove her. She never showed symptoms of
breathing quickly, but she did lie in the sand and became lethargic and
died shortly afterward.
The gooey white slim was at its peak at this time. From what I can
tell, her demise sounds like Brooklynella
<Mmm, highly unlikely... timing-wise and the fact that the fish was
but it would not explain the scooter blenny's death. He had none of
these symptoms. (erg) Note of interest: this summer we were having
issues with the tank creeping up to 85 degrees.
<Do leave the light/s off during very hot days>
Now that the weather has cooled off, the tank is stabilized at 79-81. I
understand that Brooklynella does not enjoy a warmer environment---
would this have held a current infection at bay while she seemed
<This wasn't "Brook">
Otherwise, is this a disease that would have hitchhiked on the
<It was in part the anemone>
Corals have been added to the tank gradually, but there was at least 45
days between the last coral and the anemone. No new fish or crabs have
been added in 3 months.
<Good data reporting>
The remaining fish in the tank is the algae blenny. I would have chosen
him to be the most susceptible to disease since the first week we had
him he took a trip over the overflow, down to the sump and on to and
under the filter pad. I went to retrieve the "dead" fish when
I realized where the new fish I had just bought had gone only to find a
ZOMBIE fish under the filter pad. He lost his fuzzy eyebrows in the
process and is no longer sociable.
He hides when anyone is near the tank and makes observing feeding
habits a little difficult since he won't come out to eat if he can
see you. His belly is always round and fat, so I believe he is eating
well but it is much harder to observe him.
<Will become more outgoing w/ time>
My concerns are: Will my algae blenny be able to fight these issues
<It should now that the anemone has been removed>
Will he play host to any parasites/fungus even if he isn't
<Not an issue>
What can I do to increase his chance of survival?
<Mmm, read/understand what has gone on here. VERY likely what your
system experienced was a situation of "warfare"/allelopathy
twixt the newly introduced anemone and the extant
Cnidarians/"Corals"... the unwitting non-combatants, your
fishes, suffering for being caught in "cross fire">
If he does die ---or---- does not die, how long should I wait until
adding a new clown?
<A few weeks>
This is one of the most important questions I have, I do everything
possible to ensure the living creatures I have are not unnecessarily
put in harms way: If the scooter blenny can host the disease, but not
be affected, can this be transferred to any new inhabitants or will the
disease die off?
<The root cause/issue here was environmental; I am almost certain of
With understanding of stocking technique... placing small colonies only
of Cnidarians, less stinging-chemically active ahead of more so...
mixing water twixt the established system and the one you're
isolating the new in... You should be fine. IMPORTANT that you read,
comprehend what is posted here: http://wetwebmedia.com/CorlCompArt.htm
or the .ppt version, or here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cnidcompppt.htm
I have read a minimum of 40 days so the disease can die off (I am 100%
fine with this), but am unsure if it is ok to add new coral to the tank
during this time. I would like to introduce a tank propagated rose
anemone before adding a new clown.
Whew... ok... well that's all the questions I have for now. Thanks
for your input!!!!!!
<Thank you for writing so well and completely. A pleasure to deal w/
folks who are concerned and intelligent. Bob Fenner>
Totally Stumped/Frustrated 6/22/2011
Thanks again for your commitment to the hobby. You've helped
thousands of aquarists over the years including me.
This is probably the most frustrating email that I've sent
you- I truly need some help on this one. My apologies for the
length as well pic size. I know I have a bit more KB then
you'd like but felt this was necessary.
My 54 gallon reef has gone from a gleaming jewel to a lump of
coal over the past 4 months and I'm stumped as to why. Here
is the info:
54 Gallon Corner Tank
Rena xp3 Canister Filter
HQI 150w w/Reeflux 10k bulb
1 24w ZooMed 10k T-5
1 24x ZooMed 6500k T-5
Maxi-jet 220 w/Hydor flo
photoperiod T-5's for 9 hrs, HQI for 5 hours
Salt- Kent (previously Tropic Marin)
Supplements- Seachem Reefbuilder and Magnesium, Tropic Marin
Water Changes- 5 gallons weekly, have been doing 10 gallons
weekly for the last 2 weeks
<I would suggest adding a sump to your system. It will provide
a much higher O2 exchange and increase your total water
Current specimans <specimens>:
Med. Bubble Coral (See pic- dying/shrinking)
<Highly allelopathic, especially in smaller systems such as
yours. These corals should not be placed on rough surfaces such
as your coarse substrate. Their "skin" is very prone to
cutting/tearing and is easily irritated on rough
Lg. Caulastrea curvata (See pic- was positioned close to HQI,
moved to bottom, still not looking good, too much light
<Indirect bright light and moderate current suit these corals
They seem quite sensitive to direct metal halide/HQI lighting and
strong water flow.>
Med. Caulastrea furcata (doing wonderfully/eating and
Med-lg. Branching Hammer Coral (seems to be doing fine)
Med. Yellow Colony Polyps (doing fine)
Med. Finger Leather Coral (doing fine buy will be moving to a
<Another highly allelopathic coral that does not belong with
other corals in smaller systems.
Problems as you are having often are the result. Same goes for
the Euphyllia species such as your
Tiny GSP colonies- (never grew much but surviving)
Midas Blenny (doing fine)
Royal Gramma (doing fine)
Misc. snails and tiny hermits (about 4, all fine)
NLS pellets for fish- about 5 for each fish daily
Shredded Salmon, Mysis, and crushed NLS once weekly It seems like
I've tried everything to remedy this slow decline to no
I've increased my water change frequency, added additional
Purigen and carbon to the filter, increased water motion. Using
logic, the following MUST be one of the problems:
1) Light- Is it possible that there is too much light for some of
<Yes, notably the Caulastrea.>
The hammer and Furcata receive direct HQI and T-5 light and seem
very happy. The Curvata does not- it's polyps over time, have
<Attempt to shade this coral from direct bright light.>
The same with the bubble. The bubble used to bask in the light
and expand wonderfully (see pic). I did a bulb change around the
time that things started to go south from a Coralife 14k to a
Reeflux 10k upon the crew's recommendation. The effected
corals seemed to decline after the bulb change.
<I believe allelopathy is playing a role in it's demise
and likely from the Leather Coral.>
2) Water Flow. This has been very tricky. The canister is running
350gph, the powerhead w/Hydor flo is 220, with some additional
minor flow from the skimmer.
To me, this seems very minimal but when I added another Maxi-jet
220, many of the corals closed up some and seemed blown over. I
also experimented with a Koralia 750gph as well as a maxi-jet
1200, both of which were way to powerful. Again, I used the
current flow set-up for many months with success.
<Corals do not appreciate laminar flow and do much better with
wavemaker style currents, a pulsing to and fro motion.>
3) Temperature: The tank has been ranging from 80-82 degrees due
to the summer heat, but nothing drastic.
<Should be fine.>
4) Predation: 100% sure that nothing dangerous in the tank
exists. Have had it up and running for 2 years as a reef with no
evidence, not even Bristleworms.
5) Source water: I don't think that this is it but it could
be. I use Culligan 5 gallon jugs refilled at the grocery
6) Allelopathy: This would be my best guess but
this tank is NOT overstocked. It is very minimal. In fact at its
peak, I additionally had a medium sized toadstool leather, a
large Torch coral, and several Zoanthid colonies (see pic) with
no evidence of suffering from allelopathy.
<Some corals are more resistant to allelopathy than
I have systematically removed the most likely toxic culprits (see
before and after pics for comparison) minus the finger leather
which will be gone in 2 days. In addition, I've increased
carbon usage, and increased water change frequency. I did frag
the finger leather at one point, which I suppose could have
This may be another clue: I brought back a small GSP colony from
a frag swap last week and placed it in the tank. The polyps
opened and looked wonderful the first few days but now are barely
<The Leather Coral is likely the culprit here.>
I will be moving the tank to my new home next weekend and would
like to make a fresh start. Any suggestions for getting this tank
on its feet again?
<As above, and I would use Chemipure Elite rather than carbon
The Elite removes phosphates.>
I am thinking about adding a variable flow powerhead for
additional controlled flow.
<Better to invest in an inexpensive wavemaker.>
I am also considering ditching the HQI and instead using 4
<Is worth a try, you can always put the HQI back on line if no
improvement results. And, do not expect overnight results to any
of the improvements you wish to implement.
I also suggest a more efficient skimmer to help cope with
allelopathy. Carbon will do little in this regard, the toxins are
still in the water.>
I do not think that we're looking at a foreign toxic compound
such as copper because a few of the corals are thriving.
I used to feel like a pro aquarist and now I feel like a failure.
I have a vast library of all the great texts (Borneman, Delbeek
& Sprung, Tullock, Wilkerson, Dakin, and of course Fenner)
and have spent a ridiculous amount of time on WWM.
I'm no slouch in the aquatics department but if the
proverbial proof is in the pudding, folks would look at my tank
right now and think I haven't the slightest clue. Is this
tank inherently flawed? I feel so mentally drained but I'm
still willing to do whatever I can to get my beloved tank back up
<Problems can happen to experienced aquarists as well. One
thing I have noticed in your side by side comparison photos is
that the newer pics appear to have a greenish yellow tint to
If these were taken under the same conditions, then you likely
have water quality issues as well. Good test
readings are not necessarily indicative of good water quality,
just good chemistry. May want to read here and related
articles found in the header. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/watrqualmar.htm>
Any help would be appreciated!!
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>