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FAQs about Marine Angelfish Pathogenic Disease <biological agents>

FAQs on Angel Disease: Angel Disease 1, Angel Disease 2, Angel Disease 3, Angel Disease 4, Angels and Butterflyfishes & Crypt,
FAQs on Angel Disease by Category: Diagnosis, Environment, Nutrition, Social, Trauma, Genetic, Treatments 

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Related Marine Angel FAQs: Marine Angelfishes In General, Angelfish ID, SelectionBehavior, Compatibility, Systems, Feeding,


Angelfishes for  Marine Aquariums
Diversity, Selection & Care
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by Robert (Bob) Fenner

help-angelfish. Using WWM; SW, hlth., flukes      5/4/14
Hey Bob-
A week or two ago I had emailed you about my continuous issue with keeping angelfish. Well after all my other fish were doing great, I decided to pick up a blue face angel (4 inches) and a 5 inch French angel. They were voracious eaters the first week, everything from PE Mysis, clam, krill, Nori, spectrum pellets and squid.
Well the last two days, each one of these angel fish has one cloudy eye. If I look super close at the eye, I can see little objects on eye that look like miniature contact lenses.
<... put in the WWM search tool: Angel cloudy eye.>
I am almost positive this is eye flukes (Neobenedenia?). I am also pretty sure this is what took over on my previous angelfish I have had.
I did a PH, temp adjusted freshwater dip, for about 8 minutes, but it appears that wasn't enough.
Rather than lose a now 3rd batch of expensive angelfish, I am contemplating using Prazi pro on the tank. From what I have read, people have used it in reef tanks safely, and this is a fish only tank.
My question is, I just started using bio pellets about 2 weeks ago to help nitrates. Occasionally since using them, I have gotten mild bacterial blooms, where my ph fell from 7.9 to 7.7 (most likely due to oxygen being used by bacteria). The Prazi says to turn skimmer off, however, I feel I need that, certainly now for increased oxygen. Do you think I can leave skimmer on, and to just take cup off to allow bubbling water to return to sump?
<And the two words: Eye Flukes. B>
RE: help-angelfish      5/4/14
Hey Bob-
Typically before I email you anything, I spend at least two days reading WWM and other various sources. I then think hard and through, and if I still am left guessing, that is when I break out the email.
<Oh? Oh.>
I see in most cases, with one cloudy eye, it is best left alone, and to improve on its own.
I would love to do that, but my recent track history shows these fish succumb to whatever it is in my tank, rather than improve. Perhaps I am just no good at keeping angelfish.
<Mmm; I don't believe in such notions>
So this was more of me reading on RC, TRT, etc, of people experiencing the same issue, using Prazi, and happy with the results.
In hindsight, I strongly regret acquiring these fish. If my lfs would even take them back for free, let along, say 10 percent store credit, I would jump all over that. But he doesn't, so I want to try and make it work.
All said and done, I feel this is my best plan. However, with the implementation of the bio pellets, that I felt would help me long term, I know am having some bacterial blooms, which rob o2 levels.
The thing I am unsure of what to do is, leaving skimmer on, just pouring out of neck, to ensure better o2 levels.
<A good idea; adjunct to any treatment mode>
And now that I write this, in observing the tank, I can also tell you the blue face has one frayed fin. I have never seen anyone harass the fish, and it was not there last night before the lights went out, and I manually
turned them on this morning.
Again, I would love to have it take care of itself, but for some reason that notion in the past 12 weeks cost me >$1000
Thanks again, sorry for the frustration.
<Take your time... B>
RE: help-angelfish      5/5/14

Sounds good, Robby.
I will leave skimmer on, just open the gate valve wide open and have it circulate back into sump.
Once in, how long before the flukes start to pop off would you guess?
<... depends on species and treatment. Immediately to a few days>
If a few days (day, hours?) go by, and they are still there, than would it be safe to assume the cause is not flukes, or perhaps the product is defective?
<Good question (as I don't know a/the answer). I would assume either the product is defective, OR the test manner, OR that these were not Trematodes, OR whatever was there was not treat-able per the first and
second stmt. B>
RE: help-angelfish. SW; flukes presumably    5/7/14

Hey Bob-
Ok, so it has been two days since I have placed Prazi pro in there, and whatever I was seeing on the eyes is stills there. Perhaps what I am seeing now is just the damage/scarring of the fluke being on the eye?
<.... these marks, markings aren't always parasites>
Also, under the direction of Hikari, I have turned my skimmer off. I have about 20x overturn via return pumps and VorTech, so I think oxygen is good, but my ph last night went all the way down to a 7.68, to this morning
of a 7.78. Is that considered danger zone?
<Not good... see WWM re............>

angel quarantine      3/15/14
Hey Bob,
I bought two angelfish last week and they are in quarantine. They are a scribbled angel, and Koran angel, both 4-5 inch size area. The quarantine is a basic 40b tank, with HOB filter, maxi jet powerhead for aeration, and a heater.
I keep the tank around 80, and SG is 1.021. I do water changes every 3 days, however have yet to see any ammonia or nitrite.
I am using Cupramine at a .5 level as recommended.
<... depends on the test kit...>

 I plan on doing this 28 days, followed by some Prazi. I am new to quarantining and am looking to perfect my methodology.
2 things I have notice thus far, is the scribbled angel now seems to have some cloudiness in his/her eyes. Not totally clouded, but getting there, and it did not come this way. Could this be an adverse reaction from the copper treatment?
Could it be flukes, or would that just be a white spec, and not cloud the entire eye?
<Not likely Trematodes>

Secondly, the Koran angel looks like what appears to be flukes nears his gills. Literally two, just two pieces of what I can describe as big salt granules. I thought they were flukes, freshwater dipped in aerated RO water, for 5 minutes, and these did not fall off.
<There you go>
I have scoured WWB <M?> and ReefCentral, but did not find anything remotely specific. My first inclination is to lower copper level via water change. I am also thinking of dipping the scribbled to see if that helps eye condition. Could also be a secondary fungal or bacterial, in which case I would think Prazi would help when I use that in a couple weeks.
<Likely shipping damage (net scrape), stress in general AND Cu exposure.
Ultimately I have a feeling of what to do, but would like some oversight.

Japanese Dragon Eel and clown trigger.; now angelfish with Cryptocaryon - 06/10/10
Hi Marco,
<Hello Kellvin.>
It is me again. My angelfish is infested with Ick. I can't dose any copper or medication because of the Japanese Dragon eel in there. What can I do? Please advice me. Thank You.
<Separate them (for at least four weeks until the last symptoms have disappeared) and treat the angelfish (as well as all other non-eel tank mates) in another tank. See here (and in the linked FAQs to learn about this disease and its treatments: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm). A healthy eel is quite unlikely to become a host (blood toxins, toxic mucous).>
<Good luck. Marco.>
Re: Japanese Dragon Eel and clown trigger.
Japanese Dragon Eel and clown trigger.; now angelfish with flukes - 10/09/10

Hi Marco,
<Hello Kellvin>
My angelfish have no Ick as mention previously. In fact they are flukes instead.
<How can one confuse these two diseases? See http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm, Trematodes (also called flukes) mostly occur only on freshly imported fishes.>
So I am going to treat it with Praziquantel. Can dragon eels withstand this medication?
<Eels have been treated successfully with Praziquantel. However, to avoid negative consequences on the small and possibly larger invertebrate life within the tank, I'd definitely treat in a separate hospital tank. Cheers, Marco.>

Ailing Angel: Looks like Lymphocystis 3/2/2010 Lymph ID
Hello Crew,
<Hi Kirby.>
I know you've heard this a lot, but I have to compliment you all on a fantastic site.
I use the information on a very frequent basis, but as is human nature, sometimes I still learn things the hard way, however your advice has saved me from myself more than once. .
<Thank you for the kind words.>
Onto the fishy business: I have an angel that the LFS claimed was a juvenile 6 line angel.
The angel was in a 10 gallon bare quarantine tank for 2 weeks, and all appeared well before I moved it to the main tank. While acclimating it to the water in the main tank I gave it a Methylene blue treatment for about 20 minutes, just as a precaution.
The angel was ok for he first couple of days then I notices some patches on the rear section of it's body. I thought it might have been irritation from rubbing against the numerous Vermetid worms in the tank, the spots on the body seemed to clear up, but now it has several spots that I can only describe as looking like cysts. these look like little egg pouches or something. I have looked at a lot (not all) of the information from the WWM pages, and have not encountered anything that fits this description. I do believe it is some type of parasite, but so far (I don't think it's going to stay this way) none of the other fish are showing any signs of infection.
<The pictures are a little hard to make out, but it looks like Lymphocystis A viral infection similar to warts and seems to be more common on angelfish than others. Have a look here and see if anything looks familiar:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lymphfaqs.htm >
I've attached some photo's to help identify the ailment, and maybe confirm the fish's identity as well. the fish too. Let me know if any of the pictures need to be clearer, sometimes the picture compression process does things to the image quality.
I know that I probably should get this little one into a hospital tank, but I haven't had time to try to get him out. My experience is that I need to practically tear the tank apart to get a fish out, if there's one piece of live rock left in the tank, all the fish will find a way to hide under it.
By the time a fish is easy to catch it's usually too far gone to be able to be helped. So I'm looking at about a full day to tear down and put back together the tank to get the fish out. The wrasse is the hardest since he hides in the aragonite. Could you help identify what the angel is afflicted with, and how I can treat it?
<If it is truly Lymph it will clear on its own in time.>
I'd really hate to lose this new critter, it looks so nice (when it was healthy) and I also need to know what it is, since it's probably going to happen to all the other fish too.
<Lymph is non contagious.>
The tank parameters are as follows
180 gallon main tank, 75 gallon sump,
SG 1.023
calcium 400
ph 8.3 to 8.4
nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, phosphates all practically not measureable.
Sorry for the long message, but I find its good to provide as much relevant information as I can.
<Detailed information is always appreciated.>
I appreciate your assistance, so will the critters I'm sure.
<My pleasure.>
Thank You,

Itchy Emperor 5/22/08 Hello again all! It has been awhile since writing and everything was going fine until I set up one too many tanks! That's another story, but I came upon an emperor angel. I would say he is a beautiful Adolescent specimen as he is about halfway changed. I have had him for about 3 months and he recently started showing anger or fright with white blotches in his colors. within 3 days he has developed a pretty serious "fuzzy" case of Ich. I have since quarantined <Too late for this... now treatment tank...> him and Flame Hawk ( his only companion as of now ) to be safe and was wondering what the best course of action should be. <To read...> I was leaning towards freshwater dip and then a mild copper treatment with copper power as it says it is less toxic than other brands but that could be hoo haw..... I was thinking 2- 4 weeks with small non copper water changes in the QT tank every few days after the initial FW dip. <Mmm... no> Please let me know what you think as I have read through the articles here, and talked with a few people here in town and have gotten a somewhat consistent yet varied enough answer to want to hear it straight from a member of the crew. BTW before being put into the 20g QT today, he was in a drilled 40 breeder with a 29 gallon sump, TurboFlotor skimmer, 175w halides, about 75lbs of LR throughout the whole system and a MagDrive 1200 return for lots of flow. Nitrites 0 nitrates 10 ammonia 0 ph 8.0 and it is that time of the month for the nitrates (WC time) This is a very temporary setup as I am in the process of putting together a 275 for him and some other friends. ( it just needs some scratches buffed out and it will be good to go!) I would greatly appreciate your input or suggestions on treatment for this guy as I was setting up the 275 specifically for him and a few other cool specimens and I truly value your opinions. Douglas M. Payne Jr. (DJ) <I would order-purchase Quinine Sulfate or Quinacrine... and treat quickly. Bob Fenner>
Re: Itchy Emperor 05/23/08
Mr. Fenner, <Doug> Thanks as always for the reply, I did some research into quinine sulfate as well as Quinacrine and was wondering where exactly you would recommend obtaining some. <Mmm, the fishy farmacy (.com) is a ready source... if your Vet. can't get it for you quick> Also, it seems to have many different uses in humans as well, what exactly should the treatment protocol be? Recommended dose for a 20g hospital tank, and is it usually powder or liquid? <Please see WWM re... am away from my ref. works presently (out in Germany at a trade show> Again thanks for the info, I think he is going to pull through if I can get the medicine, his behavior hasn't changed at all. <We'll see... keep hope alive! BobF> Douglas M. Payne Jr. (D.J.)

Live Sand Storage and Passer Angel... sel., dis. 8/3/07 Hi Crew, I just set up a 125 a few weeks ago for a Passer Angel I bought that is 10 inches. <Needs a world of more than twice this size... and large angels (for the species) are indeed not often good-adaptors to captive conditions... Best to start with a "medium size"...> I first saw him when I went to look for a Marine Betta that he was housed with and he bit off the Bettas tail right before I bought him. I still bought the Betta and his tail grew back plus the clerk cut 10.00 bucks off the price. He will not be having a rematch since they will be in separate tanks. I have the Passer in a QT tank of 50 gallons and he came down with velvet? <...> The pet store held him for a month for me and I bring him home and he gets velvet in a week? <Maybe... where is the parasite coming from?> This has happened in the past with all Angels I have bought? None of the other fish ever get it? <???> Yesterday I freshwater dipped him and today it was coming back and freshwater dipped him again and put him in another QT tank or hospital tank for his 15 day copper treatment. 125 should be done cycling by then. He looks healed after the freshwater dip and Im shocked how fast it comes back. In my QT tank I understand the copper will kill my bio filtration. How much of a water change should I do to keep water decent and how often? <As much as necessary. See WWM re> Also would I be better off using cycled water or premixed water for the water change? <The former... if you can be assured that it is parasite-free> One last question and Im sorry for be long winded. I bought a used 90 gallon just for the filtration because it was to good to pass up. The live sand I don't need right now and was wondering how I should store it? <Yes... but not as such. That is, it won't be very live with time going by in storage... and will need good rinsing, perhaps bleaching and dechlorinating ahead of future use> I see it in bags in stores but not sure if that's the right way. Thanks for taking the time to read this and I thank all you guys for making this complicated hobby make since! Rick <A bit of a definition difference. There are sand products that tout being "live"... but this is a bit of a misnomer... They may be primed for bacterial population growth, but definitely lack higher phyla presence. Bob Fenner>

Re: Rapid Breathing Emperor 1/26/07 Bob, thanks for your input on my "declining" situation. Yes, unfortunately this problem has gotten worse. The day of your response my powder blue tang began to scratch on the rocks. Just slight little brushes. Nothing too aggressive, but still displaying some irritation. He did this occasionally for about four days, and then I observed my emperor angel flash on one occasion. NOT GOOD! I performed a 20% water change. I did this in hope that there was some kind of water quality issue that my test kit could not pick up. I watch my fish very closely, and as of now it has been a few days since I have witnessed anything like this. <Mmm... the Crypt will be back... is just cycling...> They are both eating very well and appear to be calm. I have never seen a spot on either one of them. If I was a betting man I would say that my emperor angel has been subclinically harboring parasites this whole time and once he was moved to the tank with my Ich magnet they are beginning to gain the upper hand. <Agreed> I understand about the life cycle of Ich, and I am also aware that the apparent improvement is probably just Ich (or some other pathogen) rallying the troops for another assault on my finned friends. <Correct> I guess because of the fact that I have yet to see any spots I am reluctant to treat these copper sensitive fish. Am I just being ignorant by thinking that at this point I can beat this thing with good nutrition, vitamin supplements, garlic( unproven, I know), and good water quality. Obviously this would be ideal, but I fear by doing this the situation could spiral out of control. I have read and experienced first hand how fast these parasites can manifest themselves and kill. My first fish, a auriga butterfly, died three days after showing spots. I don't imagine the PBT will fair much better. Bob, I regard your opinion t be the best available, and I could sure use it right now. Thanks a bunch, Jim <A matter of a bunch of review, reading: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the many files above. BobF>

Cloudy <Asfur> eye problem 1/16/07 Hello Crew: <Eric> Happy 2007! I would like to ask for your expert diagnosis of this particular case... hope you all can help me a little bit. please see the attachment. <See it> I have an Asfur Angel fish, QTed it for 20 days and was put into my FOWLR 5 days ago. 3 days later it developed cloudy eye, so I first dipped it with FW and formalin+paraguard. <Didn't I respond to this recently? This problem is unilateral correct? One-sided?> During dipping, I noticed 15-20 tiny little circular "stuffs" appeared on both eyes, and also behind the fins next to the gills, these "stuffs" are circular, about3-3.5mm across, like hanging onto the fish. I scrub most of them off the fish gently <You're joking... please tell me> with a toothbrush in the dips, but the cloudy eye was pretty severe. I could see 3-4 of them attached onto that eye. for the next couple of days I have dipped it once a day with formalin+paraguard in FW. all other "stuffs" have gone from the fish's body but the cloudy eye still remain, although it is getting a "little bit" better, I would like to know a couple things: 1. what are those circular stuff? and is it contagious? <Is highly likely the fishes cornea... please stop scraping, dipping> 2. what would be the best remedy to treat the cloudy eye? I am currently dipping it once a day and lowering salinity in QT... is there additional things I should be doing? <To do your best at providing an optimized, stable setting... nutrition> 3. for ID-ing disease, can you please suggest me some readings/books and a place for me to purchase a microscope? <A QX5... see the Net... and Ed Noga's Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment to start with> thank you very much! Eric <No more scraping, dipping... or I'll hope you're reincarnated as a pet-fish! Bob Fenner>

Re: Cloudy <Angel> eye problem. - 1/18/07 Dear Bob <Eric> The fish has recovered fully, thank you very much. <Wow! Great news> in fact, once I cleaned the visible parasites off the fish he is more active, and breathing was slowed down. The formalin/ParaGuard + FW did their job I believe. Eric
<Thank you for this update. BobF>

Personifer Angel/Please Help... mixed Angels, Crypt likely 9/2/06 Hello Everyone: I have read just about everything I could about the personifer (I think) I have a 180 gallon all fish and live rock tank. My Personifer angel is about 3 ns half inches long and has white spots that are more spread around then close together. In the book by Robert M Fenner (great book) it looks like it could be Amyloodinium Ocellatum more then it could be Ich but am not really sure. <Mmm, could be either from this description... but if Amyloodinium this fish would be soon dead... a few days> My PH is 8.4 and everything else is great and my salt level is between 1.022 or 1.024 somewhere in the middle. I have about 3 other peaceful angels in my tank also. <Mmm, likely not compatible> I just want to know please, how can I cure him? I have a 10 gallon tank I could set up. I have copper, QuickCure. Please tell me directly on how to save him And how can I look up a fish where just you guys talk about the fish only? Please help me I really love this fish and I paid $200 dollars for him. I live in New York and it bother me to see this. Please reply to Joey Harper <A bit more to this... you need to treat all, including the tank itself. Set some time aside (and soon) and read, starting here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files above. You need to formulate a plan, get more treatment tanks, start making new water for change-outs... Bob Fenner>

Possible fungal infection - 03/12/2006 Hi Crew! I have a Potters Angel in quarantine. I have had him for almost a month. He is in a 55 gallon quarantine that I started with water from the main display and a power filter that I had on the display for 2 months prior to setting up my quarantine. <Good set-up... this is a "touchy" species for aquarium use (by coincidence I'm out in their home waters in HI> I do 30 - 40% water changes every other day. I feed a variety of good frozen foods and alternate Vita-Chem and Selcon. He gets Algae strips daily. He was the picture of health at purchase, he ate and was very alert and curious . The guy at the LFS only used one net to catch him [I even went and grabbed another for him, but he didn't think it necessary] <Foolish... two nets please!> When he finally caught the fish, I thought it looked as if his mouth was pinned to the glass with the net. He seemed fine when I got him home, so I didn't dwell on the rough treatment of my Pretty Angel... But then last week I noticed his fins fraying . Around that time he lost his spunk, he was not swimming all over the tank picking at the decor anymore. He was also not eating as well as before. He seemed to swim more on the bottom. I started doing daily water changes but that did not seem to help. I started treating him with Furan-2. I was getting ready to do my morning water change after the second dose when I noticed the Angels mouth, It looked horrible!! It almost looked as if it had exploded! I got the flashlight out and stared at him for an hour it seems. He has something white in his mouth. The white stuff is also hanging out of his mouth, and parts of his mouth look torn. I have tried to get a picture, but they all turn out too dark. <... might well be subsequent to the net thrashing. Arggghhhh!> I want to save my Angel. I am not sure what course of action to take next but I feel I need to act quickly. I know fungal infections are rare but the more I read, the more I think that's what I'm dealing with. I purchased some Maroxy [sp?] <This is it> today and I also have some Kanacyn, both say they treat fungal infections. I cannot decide which to use. I need your expert opinion please! Thank you all so much for taking the time to help!! P.S. It is 4am, I am dead tired so I hope this letter is legible Thanks again, Kim <Either of these materials could/can be used... if the last, the antibiotic, it's best to try getting some into the fish via offered foods... Bob Fenner>

Sick French Angel, coral beauty dead ... flukes? - 03/12/2006 At the beginning, I had an adult coral beauty; snow flake eel, 6"; French Angel, 4"; Flame Hawk, 2". The disease appears to start on the sides of the fish, then one eye becomes opaque and swollen, weight loss despite good eating habits, fins become frayed and finally, in the case of the coral beauty, death. Now a month later and my French Angel is under the same attack. The ill fish swims constantly against the current (my guess is that whatever it is, it is also attacking the gills. Any ideas what this is? Suggested treatments? Non-angel population seems fine. | <This last is an important clue...> Thanks, Bob <... frightening... Could be a few things, but you'll need to make a microscopic examination to be sure. I suspect Trematodes here... A gill and body scraping of mucus... with or w/o staining. You can read re their treatment on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Sick Koran Angel 10/11/05 Wet Web Crew: We have a 55 gallon tank with a Koran Angel and a Puffer fish in it. The Koran is about 3-4" long and the puffer is about 3-4" long. They get along very well. The tank has some live rock in it and also some decorative rock. About two days ago we noticed that both fish had white spots all over their fins and bodies. We thought it was Ich and treated them for it. It did clear up, but when we read about the symptoms of Ich, it did not sound like that is what they actually had. The Koran Angel now has cloudy eyes, a swollen pink mouth and white blotches over his body. He has been stressed over the last few days due to tank changes to treat the Ich a fresh water dip for only a few seconds, and a lack of appetite. The tank he was in when we thought he had Ich was dirty due to overfeeding, something I did not know could be so harmful and the water had a bit of a high nitrate level, but not too bad. We did a water change, cleaned all the equipment and put the puffer and angel back in. Today, one day after being returned to the tank, the angel developed these symptoms. I had noticed him swimming on his side sometimes over the last few weeks, but he was eating and acting healthy. Do you have any idea what this disease could be and what would cure it? I'm afraid that if we don't know something for sure soon, the angel won't make it. We would appreciate any help. Thank you. By the way, we view your site a lot and find it very helpful. <David and Heather, I cringe when I read queries such as yours. A picture comes into my mind of very poor diet, poor water parameters, and poor maintenance which includes weekly 10% water changes and add to the fact that your 55 is too small for keeping these types of fish as they do grow quite large. I'm seeing a rise in ammonia due to excess waste and a biofiltering system too small to recover. All this leads to severe stress of the animals in question making them highly susceptible to disease. I can suggest that both fish should be separated for the time being either in separate Quarantine tanks or using a tank divider if QT's are not available. Then you need to get a product such as SeaCure Copper Treatment along with a FasTest Copper test kit and maintain a dose of 0.015-0.020 for a minimum of 21 days. The test kit is necessary especially if you are going to treat in the main tank. Hopefully you can save the fish. You didn't mention what you initially treated the fish with and for how long. In the future do more research on the fish you are buying so you know its requirements/needs. James (Salty Dog)>
Re: Sick Koran Angel 10/12/05
Actually, our biofiltering system is larger than what we need for the tank and when these fish outgrow the tank they are in we are transferring them to an 80 gallon tank. <Good news. The Koran alone would require a 70 gallon tank when it is full grown and this is borderline, preferably a six foot long tank.> I appreciate your advice and assure that we take good care of our tanks. <Great> We have three of them. something just went wrong in this one. We did a 25-30% water change before putting the fish back in the tank and the nitrate level was never high. We checked it very regularly. At this time, they are both small and the tank seems big enough for the two of them. <Agreed, now it is but won't be for long.> Can you tell me if this is true? Do they need a bigger tank now, even though the puffer and angel are not full grown? <A rule of thumb I use is one cubic (not length) inch of fish per five gallons.> It sounds like you are not positive we can save the fish - which would break my heart. <I'm always on the positive side. Problem is if treatment is delayed the fish only gets worse and then to the point where the copper treatment even adds further stress.> The puffer is lethargic this morning and I don't know if he was sleeping or whether he is not developing symptoms as well - can the disease be spread? <Most definitely. Do you employ a quarantine tank to put new arrivals in? Read here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm> I really am sorry about all this. Our other two tanks are fine. <Great> One is a reef tank and we have lost nothing from that tank in months. We did introduce a Petco baby tank <baby tank or tang?> into the tank with the puffer and angel - it died in two days. Could this possibly have been the start of these diseases. <Yes, tanks/tangs are Ich magnets and should definitely be quarantined.> If I treat the angel with copper, does it have a better chance of living? I have read that angel fish are extremely sensitive to copper treatments. <Correct, that is why it is a must to use a copper test kit to insure copper is at a safe and effective level.> I'm sorry that the tank was not better cared for, <You don't have to be sorry to me, but it sure sounds like you are a caring person that will do whatever it takes to keep your stock healthy. Please read more on the WWM. FAQ's allow you to learn from other peoples mistakes. Again, research a fish you are interested in, especially care level, compatibility and size of tank required. www.liveaquaria.com has a chart for every fish indicating the above.> but I assure you that we did test the water and because of the filtering system on the tank, everything always seemed fine. However, our test kit cannot test for calcium and some of the more advanced water test items. <Wouldn't be too concerned with calcium in a fish only tank, although too low a level can cause the ph to drop somewhat. Do test for dKH, 8-12dkh is recommended.> I honestly thought I was doing the right thing and would hate to lose these fish over my lack of knowledge. <All the knowledge you need can be had for free on the WWM.> Any additional advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. I know I asked a lot of questions in this e-mail and hope you will be kind enough to answer them. <We are here to help. Most if not all of the questions you ask can easily be found on the Wet Web by just typing in the keyword.> The angel does seem a bit better today and I got both fish to eat some Krill last night. Their diet is now more varied than it was, and I hope it is not too late. Losing these fish would break my heart because it would be my own fault for lack of knowledge. <Again, Heather, definitely read about what you are getting. Korans are not that difficult to care for. They do require clean water, low nitrates, 10% weekly water changes and a good and varied diet. Read again here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/ - Good luck, James (Salty Dog)>

Tang with Ick Question 10/11/05 Hello Crew: <Hi Stan, James here today> I currently have a purple tang and a desjardini tang in my QT (20gal) <<RMF would NOT mix two tang species in QT>> which I plan on adding to my 150 gal reef system once they pass QT. They've been there for about a week and are both eating like little pigs and seem to be doing fine. I've been feeding them a variety of foods which includes Spectrum Thera-A Anti-Parasitic Formula, Julian Sprung's Seaveggies, Ocean Nutrition Marine Pellets Formula 2, Kent Marine Platinum Reef Herbivore Fish Food which are sometimes soaked in Vita Chem. However, in the last couple of days, I've noticed some white spots on my purple tangs body and fins. Can't really see if the desjardini has these same spots or not because the spots are not as contrasting as on the purple tang. I assume it's ick, or the beginning of it. So I looked here and read some articles that hyposalinity and/or a cleaner shrimp might do the trick without medications. So I added a shrimp a few days ago and then this weekend started researching how to do the hyposalinity treatment. <<Not with the shrimp present. RMF>> Instead of finding out how, I found more articles claiming that hyposalinity was a waste of time and wouldn't work long term. So I guess my question is, how would one go about treating ick long term in QT? Isn't that what a QT tank is for? <<Not really what "quarantine is for"... a period to review, observe health, behavior, possibly treat there/then... but also for "rest". RMF>> I know everyone has different opinions, but what do most people do? Medicate? If so with what? Any help would be very much appreciated. <Stan, if it were me, rather then stress the fish out with hyposalinity treatment, I would treat with copper. A copper test kit is a must along with daily testing to insure an effective and safe level is kept. Recommended dose to maintain is 0.015-0.020ppm. <<Dude! Of what? Free copper/cupric ion... PLEASE understand that there is a difference in reading/s with chelated copper and their corresponding kits. RMF>> I would treat for a minimum of 21 days @ 80 degree temperature. The ick cyst casings are unaffected by the copper so we have to wait till all hatch out where at this stage they can be effectively killed by the copper. The Ich that is embedded in the skin of the fish also is pretty much unaffected by the copper. Only in the swimming stage, after hatching and when they have to find a host, is when they are most vulnerable to copper. James (Salty Dog)>
Tang with Ick Question ? - Follow-up 10/11/05
Thanks James (Salty Dog): OK. So a treatment with copper it is. Any recommendations as to what copper brand / type to use? Isn't there chelated or non chelated ? <Yes, there are chelated/non chelated types. If it were me I'd go with Aquarium Systems Sea Cure Copper treatment along with their FasTest Copper Test Kit. Fortunately for me I've never had to treat a tank in 10+ years, but if the problem arose, the above would be my choice.><<... three weeks... with an unchelated copper... on tangs? I would NOT do this... I'd go with two weeks, and a chelated make/model with accompanying at least daily tests. RMF>> And I assume that I need to move the cleaner shrimp to my main tank since he won't make it thru the copper treatments right ? <Stan, all inverts must be removed. Google our WWM site on copper treatment for more info. James (Salty Dog)>

Emperor angelfish with Ich 9/28/05I have a fish only tank with live rock, tank size is 125 gallons with over 125 pounds of live rock. I just purchased an emperor angel that is in the stages of changing, I made sure to take extra care in picking this fish out, no signs of problems with it when I bought it from the fish store, brought it home and acclimated it to my tank. The next morning I notice it had Ich on its body and none of the other fish have anything wrong with them even my yellow eyed tang with can get Ich very easy. I am planning on doing my weekly 10% water change tomorrow and I am wondering should I do a Formalin dip on the fish in a one gallon bucket with the water I take out or should I just wait the disease out since it is only on one fish and may be due to stress of the fish. Please let me know and I enjoy the web site very much haven't had to ask for any help yet as everything is on the site, thank you much. <Please check grammar, caps etc, then resend. As most of these queries are posted, we just don't have the time to edit queries before posting. <James (Salty Dog)><<James... too late... this fish was not quarantined, the whole system "has" Ich/crypt now... refer folks to appropriate parts of the site... RMF>>

Emperor Angel and FW dips for crypt 9/8/05 Dear Bob, Thanks so much for all of your wonderful advice over the past couple of months. I have a 180g FO tank that had crypt introduced into it after I added an emperor angel, yes I used a QT 4 weeks but unfortunately still had the problem. I have had a problem ping ponging with crypt since. I have had no fish die. <A testament to your active, good care...> I have 3 Ich magnet tangs in a 55g QT ( large Naso, powder blue, purple tang ) they are doing surprisingly well though they are being treated with copper. Cupramine used to the letter of instructions. Powder blue initially got HLLE which is now much better since feeding with Gracilaria for a week. These guys will eventually be cured. <I admire your resolve> As for the other guys in the display ( Emperor 6", Majestic 5" , Foxface 5" 2 clown fish aggression amongst angels has not been a problem) they are all eating and doing fine. I initially treated the display with hyposalinity to a SG of 1.009 for 6 weeks which predictably failed to achieve a cure. Aggressive water changes, good diet etc have kept the fish alive but tank is infested. I now see the Emperor is getting some white discoloration at the distal end of his right pectoral fin. Probably crypt, <... or the result of hyposalinity, treatment, stress...> but I have seen this type of thing go away never to return on other fish many times. I am in the process of preparing a QT's of 55 gallons as well as 29 gallons. Yes That makes 3 QT's in all. Two 55gallon and one 29 gallon. QT 55 g 1 Cupramine Treated 1 Naso, 1 powder blue, 1 purple tolerating well Aggression amongst the tangs has not been a problem <Crowding has its benefits at times> Planned QT 2 55 G Plan to add Majestic, Foxface, damsel 3 clowns ( these guys appear disease free ) Plan on using copper added SLOWLY, testing twice daily Planned QT 3 29 g plan on treating emperor alone I have well cycled large BioWheel filters that I am planning to use on the new QT's ( used in curing live rock ) I have read at wet web media that FW dips and daily water changes for and FW dips for 8 days can effect a cure for crypt. <Some, sometimes> Is it likely that treating the emperor in the 29 G in this fashion will achieve a cure ? <Not the route I would take> The 180 gallon will lie fallow for 6-8 weeks. I will introduce and aquascape 150 lbs of beautifully cured LR as well as cleaner shrimp to make a new home for the fish that survive. <Good> I will most likely reintroduce 3-5 large fish and 3-4 small fish ( hopefully the angels, the Naso, clowns ) Do you think that this is a reasonable plan of action ? Thanks Jimmy <I would "risk" the use of copper (likely chelated... maybe the Cupramine product) on the Angel/s... Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel and FW dips for crypt 9/9/05
Bob, Thanks for the feedback. I am going to QT the angels and start Cupramine at a very low dose and move up to the recommended level. This AM both of these fish look great in the Display no visible signs of disease ( but that is why they call it crypt which is Greek for hidden ) but I know there is still crypt in the tank. <Yes and yes> I will fatten them up a bit until things are right for the QT. As an aside. What a difference a two foot wide tank makes on reducing stress !!! <Ahhh! Perhaps asking folks to consider how hard it is on them to make a turn in their car in a too-narrow street...> I think that when I put fish in QT their biggest stress seems to be the decreased tank width ( front to back ) of the tank until they re-adjust their swimming pattern when they turn in the water. My experience with my hobby this summer has taught me that there are times to act and there are times to wait. <My friend~! You are gaining/unfolding to enlightenment> Taking action, though important, at the right time can be detrimental when it is time to sit fast. Aggressive tank maintenance and excellent water conditions go a long way to allow for the fish's immune system to work. Constantly assessing if treatment is worse than disease is imperative. Treating in a timely manner when the disease is worse than the treatment can save fish. Treatment when the treatment is worse that the disease kills fish. Excellent fish husbandry oftentimes buys us some time to make this critical decision. <Ahhhh> Thanks Jimmy <Thank you... for the "Tao of fish keeping" insights. BobF>

French Angel Hi Bob how are you? <James for Bob today> I have a concern involving a 6.5 inch French angel in a hospital tank. I just revived this angel about two weeks ago from a local fish store and he's doing fine other than a pinched stomach and some fuzzy white spots all over. I am currently treating with formalin and malachite green after searching the FAQ's/forums. But, what I can't find is how to treat a pinched stomach besides foods and supplementation. I have tried numerous foods including frozen marine angel food, marine algae, and all types of shrimp and supplementing these foods when I feed with Selcon, vitamin C, garlic, etc. and nothing seems to make this pinched stomach go away. Any suggestions? Right now water quality and levels are just fine, and I am putting him in my 150 gal after the Ich is gone so the water quality will be better there. What should I do? He's beautiful with a nice personality and I spent a lot for him so I don't want to lose him. <Christine, Is the angel actually taking food, or are you trying all these foods with no success? Also read the link I will post here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/paru.htm . James (Salty Dog)>
Angel/Pinched Stomach
Thanks James, but quite frankly with all due-respect, that article really doesn't answer any of my questions. I guess I wanted advice directly from the source (the more experienced aquarists like yourself). And, yes my angel is eating VERY well, very hearty eater of almost everything I feed him. Can you help me or no? <Christine, now that I know the angel is eating, the only other thing that comes to mind is that your fish may very well have internal parasites. Here is another link you can scroll through. http://www.google.com/custom?q=Pinched+stomach&sa=Google+Search&sitesearch=wetwebmedia.com. Hopefully you can find some info here on the problem. I'm thinking you may want to try a medicated food. I've never experienced a problem like this so I am at a loss. I will direct your original question to Mr. Fenner, He may have additional input. James (Salty Dog)>
Re: Angel/Pinched Stomach - How to Handle?
Mon, 7 Mar Bob, forwarding to you for any more suggestions. Christine replied to this stating a link I posted didn't help her. She has given me a little more info but my only thought on this was internal parasite(s). I stated this to her and sent another (Pinched stomach) link to her this a.m. James <I would have suggested actual force-feeding at this point/juncture... with a plastic catheter... two people (one to hold the fish...)... a mash of meaty foods, Selcon or equivalent. Bob Fenner>
Re: Angel/Pinched Stomach - How to Handle? II
Bob, Said the angel is eating like a pig. James <Ahh, did not see this. I would suggest adding Metronidazole/Flagyl to this fish's foods then... very likely a digestive protozoan at play... and this will "get it". BobF>

Blue Angel Fungal Infection? Hello there. <Buona sera. Dr. Anthony in your service> My wife and I just (6 days ago) obtained a 5" adult-colored Holacanthus bermudensis. It had been at our LFS for about a week and a half. It was sold to us as a Holacanthus ciliaris, but we have come to the conclusion that it is a true blue angelfish and not a hybrid between the two (based on rigorous research due to the price difference between the queen and the blue, which we are still debating with our LFS, but a completely different story). Anyway, within the last 2 days, it has developed white patches on its left fin and, today, the left flank. They look like baking soda or flour when it is wet and clumpy, ranging in size from salt granule to dime sized. They aren't in any particular shape, rather just blotches. This fish shares a 75 gallon tank with one 3" Odonus niger, one 3.5" Rhinecanthus aculeatus, and one 4" Coris gaimard. It is a fish only tank with 20 lbs. Live rock, a SeaClone skimmer, and 2 large Penguin 400 filters. We have had no problems (that we have witnessed) between the triggers and the angel. In fact, we have seen the Huma trigger roll on its side so the angel could clean it. We have tested everything religiously and the results are consistently just right. Is this a fungus or bacteria, or something else?  <Lymphocystis is quite common with these angels. It is viral, non-contagious, non-fatal and non-curable by most measures. It may grow large enough to break off on its own and scarcely bother your Angelfish... or, it may become so irritating that you will need to do minor surgery (take fish out of tank into a clean towel wet with aquarium water (cover eyes to keep still. the fish... not you) and trim the infected fin tissue and scrape the body with a scalpel or razor (then swab with iodine) and return to tank) Not as bad as it sounds> We are in the process of moving the angel to our 20 gal quarantine (the only thing in it is enough crushed coral to barely cover the bottom). Is there any effective treatment of this disease?  <above... and don't bother with the move to quarantine if it is Lymphocystis... more stress> We had added Mela-Fix (basically tea tree oil) to the 75 gal. to see if that would help without disrupting the ecosystem. It did nothing.  <not for this, my friend> We are very worried about our little angel and hope anyone there might be able to help. <I seriously doubt it will be fatal. Do try referencing the disease with a good fish disease book like Handbook of Fish Diseases by Dieter Untergasser (TFH)> Thanks for your time, Chris & Rachel Koenke <my pleasure, Anthony Calfo>

Sick Singapore Angel? Hello, <Hi there! Scott F. here today> My new Singapore Angel has Ich.  He is about 4 inches long, good color and has clear eyes.  I went to the store to buy Ich medication (Rid-Ich), but the owner steered me over to Mardel Copper Safe.  He said I only have to medicate once and with half the prescribed treatment because of the angel.  The angel is in a 10 gallon bare bottomed quarantine tank.  Should I treat with Copper Safe?  For how long and with what amount? <There is a lot of disagreement about whether or not to use copper with many angelfish species. I feel that CopperSafe is a good product, but the choice to use copper is a judgment call on your part. If it were me, I'd rather use a Formalin-based product than a reduced dosage of Copper. The use of copper is dependent upon a specific dosage, and should be tested for while in use. All medications should be administered in a separate aquarium.> I have had the angel for about a week.  Whenever I come into the room he hides in a cave.  He has only eaten live Caulerpa and nothing else.  How long can he go without food?  Will he eventually eat?  Thank you for your time. Sam Reef <Well, Sam, it's important that the fish eats as much food as possible, as soon as possible. Yes, these fish don't have the best reputation for being easy feeders. If the fish is ill, this could complicate things, but it is important to keep food available to the fish. Don't give up! Regards, Scott F.>

It's Not A Fluke.. Or Is It? Good Morning Scott, <Hi there!> Many thanks for your quick response. After observing my fish further, it would appear that my blue face angel has white, clear patches over his eyes. The patches seem to be loose. This fish only seems to scratch his head from time to time, not the rest of the body. <Hmm...> Do you think this could be flukes????? I have seen some type of thread item on both eyes about 3-4mm in length and orange in colour (worm)? It's hard to get a good look as he is shy at the best of time. <That is a distinct possibility> My purple tang is also looking well fat (like never before) even if I don't feed the tank for 24 hours. This is really unusual. I'm now starting to lean towards some type of internal / external worm in the system. <These fishes do occasionally come in with internal parasites...> I used to have a powder blue tang that passed away a year ago as each morning he would have what appeared to be bad white spot but by the afternoon it would be totally gone. Anyway the bug finally beat him and he died (poor thing). However after doing a heap of research, it would appear that monogenetic flukes (I think this is the correct name) can act in this way, leaving he host and return early in the morning? Quite possible that it was never white spot and monogenetic flukes (can look familiar to the naked eye). They may have been lying dormant and ready to attack in force. Understand that large angels are prone to this. Any ideas would be great as I'm thinking about treating the tank again with Sterazin (by Waterlife in the UK). Thanks again Che   <Excellent insights and research, Che. As you suggest, large angels are certainly prone to contracting these creatures. I'd utilize a treatment course using a Formalin-based product, if you suspect this to be the case. You really want to use it as a dip, rather than an ongoing treatment, but it is known to do the trick! You can find out more about treatment of flukes on the WWM site. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

- Sick Blue-line Angel - Hi Bob, <Actually JasonC at your service today...> Thanks for taking the time to read my message and your expertise in this matter. I just got a blue-line angel and acclimated the fish to my quarantine tank right away. Less than 24 hours later, the fish is completely covered in thousands of little white spots. The fish seems to be extremely stressed out and is breathing very very fast. <Doesn't sound good at all - probably Oodinium.> The place where I got the fish from told me to perform a fresh water bath (properly adjusted temp and ph of course) in conjunction with putting some Greenex in there. So that's exactly what I did. Unfortunately, there are no signs of improvement. <I'd try an extended bath in the Greenex, perhaps even dosing the quarantine tank with it. Do be very careful to follow the usage guidelines as this stuff is quite toxic and overdosing will have dire consequences.> I'm willing to try anything to save this fish. Also, this fish has not eaten anything yet since it's so stressed out. <Again, not a surprise here. Do prepare and keep on hand plenty of new mix-water to perform frequent water changes to keep the ammonia levels down.> Should I try another fresh water bath with formalin this time? <Hmm... I think I would put the formalin directly in the quarantine. At this point, you've probably got a systemic issue which means bathing the fish and putting it back into 'infected' water. Better to just treat them both.> Should I purchase a cleaner wrasse? <No.> Change water parameters or use some medication? <The Greenex/formalin should do the trick, but it won't happen over night. Do keep on top of water quality with frequent water changes.> I would greatly appreciate your help. Thanks much! -Randy <Cheers, J -- >

- What am I doing wrong??? - I've just killed my Asfur whom just started showing signs of Ich, rapid respiration. I gave him a eight minute freshwater dip that was pH and temp matched (RO water that has been aerated for 24hrs). Once I put him back in his Q-tank he promptly began banging himself against the walls, sank to the bottom and died within 30 minutes. He was otherwise eating and swimming normally, I feel awful.  <Well... don't punish yourself too much, these things happen. Although it's little consolation, the 'word' among the grizzled, hard-core aquarists is that if it didn't make it through the dip, it wasn't going to make it anyway.> I have previously given a Blue Line angel whom got back in the Q-tank after a FW dip and swam into the walls as well, what could I possibly be doing wrong? The Blue- Line died that following day.  <I think part of your problem may be the source of your livestock. Inquire, if you can, at your local fish store about where they get their stuff - if they trans-ship, try to find another fish store.> I used to put formalin in the water and was advised it could possibly be potent to angels per Anthony so he advised just plain FW which I followed.  <Well... formalin is potentially even more toxic, than copper. Angels have a 'sensitivity' to copper, but this is in response to long-term exposure to copper, and not occasional therapeutic use, even sometimes at lower than normal levels.>  Talk about gun shy now, I'm beginning to question my skills, or lack thereof and don't know what to do if my fish get sick.  <Again, the first trick is to get good fish, either the right size [not too small, large] and in good health - many that come in to the store appear to be in fine shape but sadly have already begun their downward spiral.>  Please advise and thanks in advance. --- Steve <In the future, bring all incoming fish through a complete quarantine - two weeks would be fine, followed by a dip and placement in the main tank. This would avoid the problems of sudden appearance of parasitic problems like Ich.  Cheers, J -- >

- Disease - Queen Angel - Hi crew of WWM, I recently bought a 5 inch queen angel a week ago and it is showing signs of bacteria infection of some sort.  Because its fins are eroding, it has salt like particles on it's caudal tail (I'm not sure if it's ick or sand), and it occasionally rubs itself on my coral decor.  I have him in a 60 gallon quarantine tank at the moment and am wondering what my next step should be?  I applied a medicine called "Melafix" for three days now and have read that it pretty much ineffective. <Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of this...> I haven't seen any real sign of development yet, I would say that it is getting worse.  Are there any negative side of using MelaFix? <None that I'm aware of although too much of just about anything can become toxic.> Also when I tried to net him, half of his face got stuck in the net?  It took awhile to free him too.  Is it because his slime coating is wearing off because of the infection? <No, Angels have a stout spine on their gill covers which is very easy to snag in a net, must use caution.> It is still aggressive as it should be and is also eating well. <Ahh good. Eating is a good sign and would use that as your basis for other evaluation. Make sure the water quality in quarantine is tip-top.> Today I bought a cleaner shrimp hoping to it would work wonders perhaps and I am wondering of my angel will eat the shrimp? <I imagine your Angel will make use of the shrimp's services. Wait and see how this goes and keep an eye on the water quality.> If you can help me, I would appreciate it greatly. <Cheers, J -- >

Emperor angelfish breathing problems Hi, I have a 10 in. xmas island emperor angel. <please don't tell me this fish is in anything less than an eight foot tank. A magnificent fish and still has growing to do!> I've had him for 2 or 3 mos. now and he is doing great and everything. <hmm... was this animal quarantined for the first 4 weeks? Else, you need to get a large QT tank ready. Many parasites with the big fishes for stressful shipping> But the right gill seems to be not working. The gill opening is not opening and closing. It is just closed. <yep... this is a telltale sign of gill flukes. Tough to cure but possible. Needs meds in a bare bottomed QT tank though. Formalin is needed. Take aged water and a mature filter (with seeded media) to the QT tank. Be prepared to do daily water changes for the first eight days minimum to control parasites (larval cysts on bottom of tank) and for water quality (test daily at first). The display needs to run fallow for 4 weeks. 4 weeks minimum for angel in QT. No treatment in display... meds get absorbed and parasites flourish in sand/gravel> When I feed him he eats it then for the next 5 minutes or so his gill is working a bit but then it quits after those 5 minutes. The left gill is working good maybe breathing a little faster. What do you thin is wrong? Is it ick? <some sort of parasite that has begun in the gills... as most do> Please reply as quick as possible I fear he may not have much more time. Please help me and my fish. Thank you. <best regards, Anthony>

Treating a Flame Angel for Ich Hello.  I have a flame angel in quarantine that I just got two days ago.  The fish looked and acted fine at the LFS,  with no signs of illness.  But yesterday he developed Ich and wouldn't eat any flakes or frozen brine shrimp.  Your site seems to recommend the use of copper as a treatment, but I have heard that flame angels do not do well with copper because it eats away at their internal organs.  I can't seem to find any information on the procedure for using hyposalinity effectively.  Since the flame angel isn't eating, I don't think that garlic would work.  Should I go ahead and treat with copper?  I'm at a loss... any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Lisa    <Hey Lisa, good call using the QT tank.  You are correct, copper is not good for dwarf angels.  Try treating with a formalin based medication and freshwater dips.  -Gage>

- Treating Cryptocaryon - Happy Holidays crew !!! <Greetings, Happy Holidays to you as well.> My juvie Queen Angel recently acquired what appears to be Ich on her lateral and pectoral fins. Looks like salt blotches on fins. Only other tankmate that appears to have similar symptoms is Porc puffer. (He has one little blotch on top of head but not on fins)  Queen is showing signs of discomfort by skimming against various rocks in tank. All water test normal. Shed some light PLEASE... <Point your browser at the following URLs: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm > Peace, Lenny <Cheers, J -- >

Off-color Imperator Greetings all. How is the weather in your area? Good I hope. All is well here in Florida. <dude... its December and I'm in Pittsburgh> On to my woes . . . I have been quarantining a gorgeous Emperor Angelfish for about 5 weeks now. Initially I gave him Ich by doing a water change with Ich-infested main tank water (my two tangs got Ich due to a temperature fluctuation with has been corrected). I coppered him for one week with little to no improvement. <for future reference please know that angels are extremely sensitive to copper. Very fine line between cure and kill. I recommend formalin and FW dips instead here> BTW,  am doing 2-3 gallon water changes every other day with freshly mixed (and aerated x 24 hours) saltwater SPS 1.019 - 1.021. I am doing freshly mixed changes due to not be able to use the Ich-infested water in main tank. The symptoms are gone now, but still doing fresh changes waiting to break Ich life cycle. <excellent> After Copper Safe x 1 week, I replaced the carbon for two days and did 50% water change.  Next I tried Murex. That did absolutely NO GOOD, in fact he got worse. Now with splotches of white one his body. Carbon and 50% water change. Next I tried Greenex. <Aiiiieeeee!> He improved slightly. After three every other day treatments I started fresh water dips x 3 days. <FW dips better... easy on the drugs there dealer-man> The freshwater dips have worked wonders. <Oh, ya... as they should> He looked great three days ago. Therefore I stopped the fresh water dips. Tonight he has more Ich on his pectoral fins and white splotches on his body . . . AGAIN!! What can I possibly do next? <no more drugs please. Without ever having touching a med, Ich can be cured in a bare bottomed QT tank with a single FW dip and floor siphon every day for 8 consecutive days (breaks life cycle of parasite). Tried and true.> I have treated this poor fish with just about everything I can think of.  <over treated my friend... the meds might kill him in the 2 months picture as some stored in fat cells get used up. Delayed overdose> I am afraid I am going to kill him with kindness. <I admire your hard work here greatly. Simply maintain good water quality, a quiet stable QT tank, and do the 8 day FW dip and floor siphon (5-10%) each day. All will be fine likely> He still eats very well, and behaves normally. Help. John Michael PS. The main tank has been symptom-free for three weeks. I was planning on putting him in the main tank this weekend, but I don't want to now that he his "sick" again., <there is no possible way that fish can go in now. They need to be 2 weeks disease free before entry. That means he is at least 3 weeks away. Best regards, Anthony>

Faded Imperator Hi Guys <Hello!> Quick question this time.  I just bought a 5" adult Imperator who is currently in my QT.  I noticed that some of his color blanched in various parts of his body.   <Possibly fright patterns> Now it appears that he has Ich (there were 2 spots on him  so I caught it early) and I am treating with copper.  The faded spots do not appear to be as abundant after a dip and 24 hours of copper.  Is this a reaction to stress or do these light spots represent some other form of disease? <I doubt the faded spots are disease. Personally, I wouldn't have freaked about two small white spots. I have a tendency to take a "watch and see" approach with my own tanks. I suspect it's just fright colors. Please read more about treating fish disease at WetWebMedia.Com  I'm sure you want to get the procedure right...No?> Thanks as always <You're welcome! David Dowless> Joe

SICK FLAME ANGEL I just purchased a flame angel from the most reputable fish dealer on the net. Fish looked great in the bag, very bright red. Unfortunately, I had to move the aquascape after I released him into the tank. I did not quarantine the fish because it is the only fish in the 75 gallon tank and based on where the fish is from I've never needed to<You always need quarantine even if it is the only fish in the tank. > I now see where I was wrong. After 24 hours, the fish is pale white on the sides and scratching against rocks like a madman. It has no apparent Ich spots on fins. Do I need to set up a quick quarantine tank, stress him out further, or is there a chance that him being the only fish in a tank that big he can kick it on his own with time?< Leave him where he is for now but if he does start to show spots he will need to be treated in a separate tank and your main tank will need to go fishless for at least four weeks, a cleaner shrimp would be beneficial > All levels are zero, and he has absolutely no competition. He picks at the liverock, but won't even chase Mysis shrimp. I'm really in a bind because this fish is so beautiful. It's a tiger striped variation of the flame. HELP! <Try feeding him an angel preparation such as the one made by Ocean Nutrition.  Please read through the pages highlighted in blue below for more info on quarantine and the flame angel. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htmad http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/loricula.htm Hope this helps, Cody>

Fish Disease Hello, I have an Pomacanthus imperator.  I purchased him two days ago, and added him to my 75 gallon tank.  I also have a coral beauty who has been in the tank for 3 months.  I recently lost a juvenile Emperor and a Powder blue tang to some type of infection/disease.  My new Emperor has some type of infection/disease.  There are white blotches all over his body.  He has cloudy speckles on his eyes.  He is also breathing heavy, but he hasn't gone to the top of the water, or near the filtration.  He was previously in a Dr.'s tank for three years, in which he was traded to the place in which I bought him from.  He is 5 inches and almost reached complete adult coloration.  He was eating fine the first two days, and now he is not really eating.  I added MelaFix today to the water.  I am not sure what he has.   What do you think the next step should be?  My coral beauty has been in there since the beginning and hasn't been sick once or shown any signs of illness.  He was my first fish, I have lost the Powder Blue, the juvenile Emperor, and now my adult Emperor is sick.  What should I do or what could the problem stem from.  I need to alleviate this problem.  Any help would be greatly appreciated! Respectfully, Michael P. Parks   <Hey Michael, could be some parasites lingering in the tank and only the stressed weakened fish are showing signs of infection.  The best thing would be to move the Emperor to a separate quarantine tank and get an exact ID of the disease, treatment with formalin should help.  The "Handbook of Fish diseases" by Untergasser is a good reference.  Best of luck, Gage>

Re: Rapid breathing Hi Bob how are you? Thank you for your quick responses to all the questions I have had lately. Once again I have yet another question for you. I have removed the rock and substrate from my quarantine tank and I have done a 25 % water change. My Question is my Lemonpeel Angel has started to breathe rapidly since this morning all the other fish including the Lemonpeel had been re infested by morning with white dots I have also re dosed with copper. Do you think that the parasites have possibly become immune to the copper? <No... but the copper may well be causing the fish to produce more mucus, coating its gills... I do hope you're using a copper test kit> and is there any other medication I can add with the copper to help the gill infestation. I have done one fresh water dip with the lemon peel Do you think more of them will help. <There are... if indeed there is such an infestation. If not, or you don't know, I would not add to the stress of this fish> I guess my one question has turned into several so much to ask and learn about.  I have also read all the site links you have suggested if you have any more please let me know. Thank you   Stan N. <Yes. Please go to www.WetWebMedia.com and the Marine Index in turn, then Maintenance, on down to Disease... Bob Fenner>

Save The Queen! (Sick Queen Angel) Hi, <Hi there! Scott F. with you today!> I just moved my two fish to a hospital tank for treatment of Ich.  The queen angel is looking the worst, rapid gilling and signs of excessive mucus. <Hmm...could be a sign of Amyloodinium, which is a very aggressive parasitic disease, or possibly, a response to an environmental trauma of some sort...> I have a good level of copper in the tank, but I'm wondering if I should give a freshwater dip or if it would be too stressful on him.  If I leave him in the tank and just wait for the copper to show its effects on the disease, I'm worried he may not last that long.  What do you think?  As you can imagine, this is kind of an emergency, so thanks for your reply. Tim   <Well, if you also see a very fine "haze" of spots on the fish, it may very well be Amyloodinium, which can kill with horrifying rapidity if left unchecked. Do a quick scan for information about this illness on the WWM site, just to make sure. I would, however, check all "basic" water parameters ( pH, ammonia, nitrite) to verify if there is no environmental cause for the reaction that you are witnessing. I'd also check your copper level in the (treatment?) tank, to make sure that you did not overdose...Very important to measure when utilizing copper for a disease treatment. If dosed improperly, you could do more harm than good! Finally, I think that freshwater dips, properly executed, can certainly help with parasitic diseases. They should be used as a supplemental therapy, IMO, in conjunction with a course of copper sulphate at proper therapeutic levels. Decisive action is important with this illness, so if it's Amyloodinium, you did the right thing...Just keep a close eye on things, and be prepared to take further corrective actions as they become necessary. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Queen and majestic...   I was wondering how hardy are queen angels and majestic angels... Are they susceptible to Ich?   Do you need to keep them in a FO tank running copper? Any other info would help! thanks! Ben < Queens (Holacanthus ciliaris) are far hardier than Majestics (Pomacanthus Euxiphipops navarchus)... out of ten in the way of a historical survivability scoring scheme, I'd rate them an 8 and a 2 respectively. Both are "medium" susceptible/resistant to Ich, velvet... I would not keep any livestock running under copper continuously.  My further ideas on these fishes, the issues of selection, acclimation procedures... can be found on the site: www.wetwebmedia.com, Bob Fenner>

Bi color beauty mark? <Hi Mike, PF here this PM> I just ran across your site and could not find specific info on my dilemma with a newly acquired bi-color angelfish.. this beautiful fish was introduced to my 60 gallon tank last Thursday and was healthy looking to my untrained eyes.. I covered the tank with the lights off for the first 24 hours. <Good procedure> I did not attempt to feed this fish until the next day... it has been one week now and this fish still hides in the live rock and only eats algae, or so it appears... my most urgent problem is a pink wart like growth by one of its gills, size looks to be about 4mm in size. I have since noticing this growth added MelaFix, a Melaleuca tea tree oil as this has always helped the fish's skin to retain bacteria resistant "oils"?. do you have a name for this growth and possibly a solution for this most elegant fish?? in advance, thank you for your help... mike <Well Mike, digging through the FAQs this is what I found: (here's the FAQ btw www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/disease. tm  ) From Bob on a wart like growth on an angel: (Sound familiar?) <Well, thanks for the last comment... and thanks for causing me to get out all my older and latest "fish disease" reference works... To sum up: Idiopathic epidermal proliferation (i.e. the type of tumor you're describing) have no direct cause-effect relationship... many authors cite water "contaminants" as probable cause... and yes, there are incidents and suggestions that when such "neoplasm's" occur on the outer surface of a fish that some sort of surgery might/has proven worthwhile... If it were me though... I'd just attempt to improve and hold steady your water quality, and if (I know the species and it is a good feeder) the animal is still feeding, apply a vitamin, iodine mix (these are made for fish foods as well as humans) to its food immediately before offering it. I wouldn't "try" anti microbials, or anti-Protozoals... And I would try to be upbeat. Bob Fenner > <Hopefully this helps. You may want to feed it Mysis, or perhaps live brine (this is basically water flavored shrimp, but they love it, it's ok as an occasional treat - think of it as fish junk food) to get it feeding. You can gut load the brine with vitamins such as Selco, that wouldn't hurt to add it to it's diet. Have a good evening, and good luck. PF>

Angelfishes for  Marine Aquariums
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