Medicine Cabinet   11/5/06
Hello Crew;
<John>
Unfortunately, last night I lost a Coral Beauty Angel in quarantine.  While it's certainly not the first fish I have lost, I believe it to be the first lost due to an outright infection.  Don't get me wrong, over the years I have lost more fish than I care to think about, but, it's been due to predation by tank mates, shipping stress and the associated anxiety (the fish, not me), or what I suspect to be cyanide poisoning in the case of a Gramma melacara.  I have suffered almost no losses with corals, including a Sebae anemone which I've had for 5 or 6 years.
<Well-done>
Anyway, the aforementioned fish quickly developed cloudy/puffy eyes and some fin rot after getting him from the LFS,
<Centropyge bispinosus are by and large not "hardy" as they "used to be" years back... cumulative stress-effects from collection, holding... lack of nutrition in transition I mostly suspect>
so with some trepidation, I performed a pH adjusted freshwater bath which cleared things up nicely for about a week
<Good mostly for treating symptoms... not so much for causes/effects>
when I noticed symptoms started to re-appear, just before I had to work three 12 hour night shifts doncha know.  So I did a second bath, but he perished overnight (my own fault I suspect, because while I used distilled water adjusted to pH 8.2 with baking soda, I discovered too late that while letting the container come to temperature overnight before dipping, the pH drifted high.  Perhaps burned his little gills).
<A common, too common problem here>
My question, finally, is:  since, it seems to be a truism that trouble will strike at the most inconvenient time, what  would you keep on hand in order to treat the various maladies that can strike our captive critters?
<Ho-buoy! A cursory review of my feeble memory shows a distinct lack of such a cogent, detailed list... and rationale. I do wish I could commit the time/resource to generating such a "Pathologically Speaking" series of articles... perhaps a popular-slanted short book on the mass topic of captive marine/aquatic organism "health", including this important topic... We/WWM do have a brief piece by Tim Hayes: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i4/When_things_go_wrong/Oh_no.htm
that delves shallowly here...>
On another topic, what are your thoughts on a Chaetodontoplus mesoleucus in a 180 reef?
<A very nice choice IMO/E>
  Right now the only fish are two false Percs, a yellowtail damsel, golden wrasse, and a pair of green Chromis.  Other desired additions are a hippo tang, Kole tang, Forcipiger butterfly, and a fridmani Pseudochromis.
<Also good choices>
  Currently corals are softies and LPS, but I plan to switch more to SPS since upgrading the tank and lighting a while back.
Thanks;
John
<Thank you. Bob Fenner>

Personifer Angel/Please Help... mixed Angels, Crypt likely   9/2/06
Hello Everyone: I have read just about everything I could about the personifer (I think) I have a 180 gallon all fish and live rock tank. My Personifer angel is about 3 ns half inches long and has white spots that are more spread around then close together. In the book by Robert M Fenner (great book) it looks like it could be Amyloodinium Ocellatum more then it could be ich but am not really sure.
<Mmm, could be either from this description... but if Amyloodinium this fish would be soon dead... a few days>
My PH is 8.4 and everything else is great and my salt level is between 1.022 or 1.024 somewhere in the middle. I have about 3 other peaceful angels in my tank also.
<Mmm, likely not compatible>
I just want to know please,  how can I cure him? I have a 10 gallon tank I could set up. I have copper, QuickCure. Please tell me directly on how to save him And how can I look up a fish where just you guys talk about the fish only?  Please help me I really love this fish and I paid $200 dollars for him. I live in New York and it bother me to see this.  Please reply to
Joey Harper  
<A bit more to this... you need to treat all, including the tank itself. Set some time aside (and soon) and read, starting here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above. You need to formulate a plan, get more treatment tanks, start making new water for change-outs... Bob Fenner>

Spot on Marine Angel fish... owee from decompression procedure?   7/31/06
Hello crew,
<Laurie>
I've been researching on your website, but can't seem find an exact match for a possible issue with my marine angel.
I purchased a Swallowtail angel two week ago.  She is isolated in my QT.  
I did not freshwater dip her prior to putting her in the QT.  
<Not always advisable>
A few days after bringing her home, I noticed a small white bump on her side.  It's about the size of a scale.  I thought that perhaps it might be a single parasite, so at that time I did capture her for a buffered (baking soda to ~8.2 pH) freshwater dip (with methylene blue).  However, I removed her after only 1 minute, as she started to thrash, which scared me.
<Can be scary>
Now, after about 10 days, it has turned a yellow-brown.  No other spots are on her.  I have decided to leave her in the QT until that spot is gone, but feel that I should know what it is, so that I can further treat her properly, if needed.
<Good. This is what I would likely do as well>
I tried to get a picture, but she freaks out at the camera and I can't catch her in a frame!
Oh - I added a skunk cleaner, thinking that if it is a parasite,
<Excellent>
or actually, anything else that needs to be cleaned off, that he could assist.  I have seen her letting him hop on occasionally.  But, the spot is still there.
Would you know what this spot might be?
<Mmm, likely a "sore" from the process of capture... most likely a/the entrance of a needle to "decompress" this animal... Many marine fishes are caught at depths that make such "gas bladder bleeding" expedient, rather than the long-wait of bringing to the surface slowly...>
Thank you for your help - both past and present.
Regards,
Laurie O.
<Keep your eye on water quality, and don't be too wary of moving/placing this Genicanthus sp. in your main system. Very likely it is relatively disease free. Bob Fenner>

Re: Spot on Marine Angel fish   7/31/06
Hi Bob,
<Laur>
Thank you.  That's great news.  I will plan on moving her this coming weekend, then.  (That will be a full 3 weeks in QT.)
<Good>
  Water quality is pretty good in the QT - ammonia and nitrite at 0; nitrate at 20 ppm.  I just did a 5% water change, too.
I have another, unrelated question for you, if you don't mind?
<Sure>
I was poking around yesterday, and found on this page:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm; under the section "Biological/Pathogenic Disease: Identification, Pathogens/Agents, a photo that shows zigzag lines/trails on what may be live rock (or is it a fish?).
<Oh! Is a pic of nematodes, Roundworms encysted in the dermis of a Moray Eel...>
It is the fourth photo down in this section.  I looked at all of the links to the left, but could not find that photo in any of those links.  Do you know what the zigzag lines are?
<Yes... please see here: http://wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmdisfaq2.htm
about mid-way down... the same pic>
We've had three occasions of something looking exactly like these in our 110 display tank.
<Mmm>
  Twice on the glass wall, once on a rock.  We thought they were snail eggs.  But, now I'm worried, because your photo is under the disease section!  
Thanks again,
Laurie O.
<There are many such-appearing living "things"... likely what you saw were actually eggs... most likely of a mollusk of some sort. Not to worry re. Bob Fenner>

Lost my Conspic :(   7/16/06
Hello WWM Crew.
<Jeff>
I had a tragic loss of my Conspicillatus Angel after two and a half years of healthy living he is gone. I had noticed over the last 6 months
his breathing had increased and he loved the bubbles. His appetite up until the last day was voracious as usual. I always looked in the gill
plates for any sign of problems but did not see anything (still bright red and full). When I came home the other night I noticed his breathing
was beyond rapid.  I called my fish guy at 11:00 pm to come over and help.
<... some service!>
After looking at the gills again we noticed a huge (about the size of a nickel) white bulbous growth tucked deep inside the gill plates
(because now his gills were flared wide open to get o2). We agreed that in the morning we would "cut " whatever it was out
<!>
to save the fish because it wouldn't make it if he continued like this. Unfortunately by 7:00 AM he past away. The fish guy did a post op on him and said he
found a "goiter" in his gill plates,
<Not uncommon>
one large one and a smaller one on the other side. I unfortunately do not have a pic of it but is it common, rare or even possible for angels to get them (I only saw
references on rays and sharks)?
<All vertebrates and some invertebrate groups are subject to these tumorous growths... Generally associated with endocrine malfunction, in turn related to a nutritional, chemical deficiency>
or could there have been a copepod or some type of parasite that fits the bill?
<Mmm, this is also a possibility. Would need to examine the growth>
It did look more like a "tumorous" growth than parasitic but I would hate to search for another beautiful fish like that and not know what I would be dealing with.
Best Regards,
Jeffrey G. Schoor
<Sorry to realize your loss... Might I ask, were/are you of the habit of using vitamin/supplements and/or iodine/ide/ate on a regular basis? Bob Fenner>

Re: Lost my Conspic :(   7/16/06
Hi Bob,
<Jeff>
I do use vitamins and supplements for my fish that contain iodine but I did not use additional iodine. I guess I should start. My tank is 400 gallon fish only what types of supplements would you recommend?
Thanks for the quick response
Jeffrey
<Mmm, well, it takes actually very little iodine to prevent Chromaffin Tissue (homologous to Thyroid, Parathyroid in "higher vert.s) deficiency syndromes... If you are adding such weekly (a good practice to time with water changes, general maintenance, this should "do it". Our collective input on this issue here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/vitaminmarfaqs.htm
and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/iodfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty HLLE?    7/1/06
Hi, question for you.
<Hello John>
I currently have a mid size coral beauty in my quarantine system.  I purchase him 16 days ago from a LFS.  While in the QT he has developed a
small patch (approx the size of a match head) on his L side near his lateral line.  The area appears to be pale in nature and irregularly circular.  At
first I thought he may have just bumped against something in the tank but now watching it over the past 15 days.  It appears to have grown ever so
slightly.  Also yesterday I noticed a very tiny pale patch on the R side of his head.  Is this the beginning of HLLE?
<Possibly.>
I feed sparsely (given that he is in a QT) brine shrimp and Omega sea veggie flakes once a day each.  
<A poor diet such as this can certainly aid in further development of HLLE, if that is indeed what it is.>
The QT is a 15 gal long w/AquaClear 200 filter and carbon pouch.  Airstone w/pump, heater, small powerhead and PVC piping.   1 gal water is changed daily.  If
this is HLLE should I attempt to treat it before placing him in my main aquarium or place move him in after he finishes out his QT time figuring the
better diet and water quality available in my larger system will fix him.
<You've just answered your own question here.  Better vitamin (Selcon, Vita-Chem) enriched diet and excellent water quality are the main factors in reversing HLLE.  There is no medication, in my opinion, that will effectively reverse this.  Do read FAQ's on this also.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm>
My main system is a 65 gal w/20gal sump, live rock.  Thanks for your comments,     
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
John

Losing angelfish only  - 06/07/06
Hi Bob and Crew,
<O & R>
                        Thanks again for all the help you and the crew provide. Much appreciated! I've e-mailed before and you guys and gals were very helpful. I always try to find the answers to my problems first, before I take up your time. This time I've had a little trouble so thought I would drop a line. My problem has been with keeping queen and French angels. Both juvenile and adults. I have a 135g
<Not large enough...>
with powder blue tang, 2 perculas, black cap, bi color blenny, and mandarin goby. Have 150lbs live rock, Dual Bak Pak skimmer, and emperor 400. Aquarium is about 1 year running. Water parameters have always been excellent. All at 0. PH 8.2. Have 30g quarantine tank in place and use it wisely. I have not had any problems with my fish except for 2 queen angels and 2 French angels. Which I've read are very hardy and disease resistant.
<Generally so>
None of them have died right away, seems to be a couple of months down the road. No signs of disease other than minor lymphocytes here and there.
<This is telling... a large stress component>
One day they start breathing heavy or labored and then die a day or so later. I've read in your book about size range for each and all of them would be what you would call acceptable range. 4-5 inches.
<In this small sized system, better to start with even smaller specimens... down to 2-3 overall inches>
I do have corals in my tank as well and don't know if these are possibilities.
<Are as well... material coming off/from these could be malaffecting these fishes>
I recently pulled my bubble tip and Sebae anemones out thinking my angels may have come into contact with them and died from that.
<A possibility>
Is that a possibility that even a larger angel can die from an anemone sting.
<Yes>
Corals in my tank currently are torch coral (which my clowns hosted after losing their bubble tip), flowerpot, branching hammer, and frogspawn. Could any of these been the cause or am I missing something.
<Not able to tell from here/this>
All my other fish have not shown any signs of problems to date. After the fourth or fifth queen and French I'm quite frustrated. I feed them Nori seaweed red and green, formula one, angel food containing sponge (which they didn't take to very well) and mysis. A good variety I thought. Any advice would be much welcomed. Thank you again for taking time out of your busy schedule.                                                         Sincerely,                                                                       Royce
<I would look to a smaller Pacific, Indian Ocean pomacanthid species here. Wait till you have a tropical West Atlantic biotopic effort to try one of these Caribbean angels. Bob Fenner>

Emperor Angel With HLLE - 06/01/2006
Hey guys!  What are the common causes of Head and Lateral Line Disease for Marine Angels?  
<Primarily dietary deficiency....  Start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm and note that though freshwater HLLE is often caused by Hexamita, in marine fishes, it's almost always nutritional.>
I have a 4" Emperor with it and I am just racking my brains trying to find the cause.  Good thing is that he is healthy as a horse and has quite the appetite.  
<Ah, good.>
I have read that if I can find the cause and fix it that I can reverse its effect on the fish.  Is this true?  
<To an extent, yes.>
I have been feeding my Angel "Sally's San Francisco Bay Brand" frozen food for angel and butterfly.  He also gets Formula two, and on occasion brine shrimp plus and mysis shrimp.  I feed very generous amounts of red and green algae.  I have just today switched his Angel food with Hikari Mega Marine Angel frozen food.  It seemed to have more sponge in it.  
<Try Ocean Nutrition's foods, too.>
I also just today began soaking all the food in Zoe.  
<I would switch this to Selco/Selcon and/or Vita-Chem.>
It is not the water conditions.  I have awesome water quality.  Never any algae blooms, the tank is very mature.  The ph though is a little on the low side, 8.1...
<.... not awesome.>
it has always been this way no matter what I do or what I try (my husbands tank has the very same issue).  
<Please try to get to the bottom of this issue, raise to 8.3.>
I have had my fish for a very long time and the Angel is the only one showing ill health. That's why I suspected it may be a dietary issue?  
<Almost definitely.>
Don't know if this has anything to do with it, but my stocking list is 1- 6" Naso, a Sailfin Tang, 6 blue-green Chromis, an algae blenny, a flame angel, a pair of Sebae clowns and a black and silver cardinal.  They are in a 6' long 150 gallon tank.  They seem pretty tolerant of one another.  
<I see no real problems with this mix; good choices.>
Any help would be appreciated.
<If you don't already, consider having live rock in the aquarium, or if your rock is more than a few years old, consider switching some/much of it out for new.  This new rock would first need to be cured, of course, before adding to the established tank.>
Thanks, The Melendez Family
P.S.  How do I check for a reply?  I am not sure what this would be posted under or how to get there from the home page.  (Yes...I have to be spoon-fed lol).
<Will be posted.... under HLLE FAQs of all places!  Also on the dailies for a day, also replied to your email address.  We try to cover our bases (grin)>
Thanks again.
<Glad to be of service.  Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>

Angel with cloudy eye   5/23/06
Dear WWM crew: I have recently introduced a moderate sized Emperor Angel into my 150 gallon fish-only system that contains only three other inhabitants:  Achilles Tang, Maroon clown, and Spiny Boxfish.  Although the angel appeared to acclimate well and is an assertive feeder, it has developed persistent "abrasions" on the pectoral fins and slight clouding of one eye.  The clouding is not diffuse (appears almost like excess mucous) and not accompanied by Exophthalmus.  The fish will occasionally "rest" between rocks, but otherwise is active and approaches anyone who goes near the aquarium.  My presumption is that the fin abrasions and eye abnormality are bacterial in origin,
<Mmm, most likely>
likely secondary to minor trauma or stress (water parameters are stable).  If I'm correct that the problem is not fungal/parasitic, would you recommend a nitrofurantoin-based treatment (in quarantine) such as Jungle "fungus eliminator?"
<... possibly... How long has this been going on?>
Is there any role for a freshwater bath given that bacteria are unicellular and should not be able to osmoregulate (like parasites)?  
Thanks for your advice, Dana
<As stated in articles, FAQs posted on WWM... five, ten minutes. Did you freshwater dip this animal as part of the original acclimation procedure? This could be something else... my next best guess is trematodes/flukes... Need for microscopic examination... Bob Fenner>

Re: Angel with cloudy eye  - 05/23/2006
Thank you for your reply.  The duration of symptoms is now approximately 10 days and began around 1 week post transfer from quarantine.
<I see>
  The other fish in the aquarium have not shown visible signs of infection, though the Achilles Tang was darting around for a few days (now back to normal color, swimming behavior).
<Not atypical for Acanthurus species... when new livestock, changes occur...>
  I did not freshwater dip the fish before or after quarantine.  As far as microscopic examination, I do have the equipment to perform this
analysis--the issue is how to procure a specimen without further stressing/damaging the fish.
<Mmm, I see you have a medical doctor affiliation... For what you have invested here, and into the future, I encourage you to seek out and borrow or buy a copy of Edward Noga "Fish Disease. Diagnosis & Treatment"... This single reference will grant you insights as to body slime slide prep., the current rudiments of pathology of ornamental fishes>
Therefore, since my original message, I made the decision to treat the fish in quarantine with Jungle's
nitrofurantoin-based treatment, again without a freshwater dip.  If I understand you correctly, do you believe that there is a role for a
freshwater bath even if the assumption of bacterial infection is correct?
<Mmm... well, if I/you were going to the "trouble" to remove, isolate this fish already, I would elect to process it through a pH-adjusted freshwater bath enroute>
Thank you again,
Dana
<I do hope this is clearer. Bob Fenner>
P.S.  I can try to obtain a digital image if things do not improve
<Appreciate this>

Possible fungal infection  - 03/12/2006
Hi Crew!
  I have a Potters Angel in quarantine. I have had him for almost a month. He is in a 55 gallon quarantine that I started with  water from the main display and a power filter that I had on the display for 2 months prior to setting up my quarantine.
<Good set-up... this is a "touchy" species for aquarium use (by coincidence I'm out in their home waters in HI>
I do 30 - 40% water changes every other day. I feed a variety of good frozen foods and alternate Vita-Chem and Selcon. He gets Algae strips daily.  He was the picture of health at purchase, he ate and was very alert and curious . The guy at the LFS only used one net to catch him [I even went and grabbed another for him, but he didn't  think it necessary]
<Foolish... two nets please!>
When he finally caught the fish, I thought it looked as if his mouth was pinned to the glass with the net. He seemed fine when I got him home, so I didn't dwell on the rough treatment of my Pretty Angel... But then last week I noticed his fins fraying . Around that time he lost his spunk, he was not swimming all over the tank picking at the decor anymore. He was also not eating as well as before. He seemed to swim more  on the bottom. I started doing daily water changes but that did not seem to help. I started treating him with Furan-2. I was getting ready to do my morning water change after the second dose when I noticed the Angels mouth, It looked horrible!! It almost looked as if it had exploded! I got the flashlight out and stared at him for an hour it seems. He has something white  in his mouth.  The white stuff is also hanging out of his mouth, and parts of his mouth look torn. I have tried to get a picture, but they all turn out too dark.
<... might well be subsequent to the net thrashing. Arggghhhh!>
  I want to save my Angel. I am not sure what course of action to take next but I feel I need to act quickly. I know fungal infections are rare but the more I read, the more I think that's what I'm dealing with. I purchased some Maroxy [sp?]
<This is it>
today and I also have some Kanacyn, both say they treat fungal infections. I cannot decide which to use. I need your expert opinion please!
  Thank you all so much for taking the time to help!!
  P.S. It is 4am, I am dead tired so I hope this letter is legible
  Thanks again, Kim
<Either of these materials could/can be used... if the last, the antibiotic, it's best to try getting some into the fish via offered foods... Bob Fenner>

Sick French Angel, coral beauty dead ... flukes? - 03/12/2006
At the beginning, I had an adult coral beauty; snow flake eel, 6"; French Angel, 4"; Flame Hawk, 2".  The disease appears to start on the sides of the fish, then one eye becomes opaque and swollen, weight loss despite good eating habits, fins become frayed and finally, in the case of the coral beauty, death.  Now a month later and my French Angel is under the same attack.  The ill fish swims constantly against the current (my guess is that whatever it is, it is also attacking the gills.  Any ideas what this is?
Suggested treatments? Non-angel population seems fine. |
<This last is an important clue...>
Thanks, Bob
<... frightening... Could be a few things, but you'll need to make a microscopic examination to be sure. I suspect trematodes here... A gill and body scraping of mucus... with or w/o staining. You can read re their treatment on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Emperor angel problem   2/23/06
Dear Bob and colleagues
Please help
I have a 100 gallon home display tank and a 200 gallon sump). There has been a sudden chain of events causing an issue with my tanks members, especially the 3 year old emperor angel.
My water parameters are as follows;pH8.2 , ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20ppm ,sg 1026 and temperature 24.7 centigrade. These were taken this morning before tank lights were switched on. Other hardware includes Deltec AP850 skimmer, phosphate (ROWAphos) fluidized filter and wet/dry filter (maybe why I cant get lower nitrates!)
<Likely, yes>
Following an ich outbreak on my C. Lunula, I treated the system with Myaxin solution for 5 days, but still lost him unfortunately. It has resulted in the emperor showing very distressed symptoms (rapid gill movements, loss of appetite and hiding away but no obvious bodily ich signs). During this period I lost an Anthias with no obvious causes but the remaining tank members seem fine (comprising 2 hawkfish, purple tang, blue tang, green Chromis and 3 convict blennies). The soft corals showed minor irritation but seem fine now.
When I switched the UV sterilizer(30Watt) back on, did this result in any toxic shock chemicals?
<Not likely>
I have now  tried a 30% water change and the addition of carbon filtration to try and improve matters but I am still most concerned about my emperor.
Are there any further suggestions you might offer?
Best regards
Dave K from the UK
<Not from the information provided. Have you read on WWM re this species? Please do so: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/pomacanthus/imperator.htm
And the linked files above. Hopefully something will "pop up" here re your situation. Bob Fenner>
"The soft corals showed minor irritation but seem fine now. Are there any further suggestions you might offer?
Best regards
Dave K from the UK"
<Actually... on a moments reflection, the problem is likely the negative reaction you list re the soft corals... These are very likely poisoning your system, consequent from the Myxacin... I would add a good deal of activated carbon to your filter flow path, and execute a series of 10-20% water changes every few days to dilute their effects. BobF>

Emperor Angel mouth problem    1/25/06
Dear Crew,
<Dana>
I have a 5 1/2"  Emperor Angel whom I have had for just under 2 years. He has always been healthy, eats everything, and has almost  
completely changed over to his adult form. He is perfect in every way but one. Over the last six months, I noticed that his mouth looked  
different than it should (I had one many years ago, plus see them in LFS and photos). I have had no luck taking photos that clearly show  
what I am talking about, so I shall attempt to describe his mouth. Quite simply, it looks as if someone grabbed it with a pair of pliers  
and pulled it forward. There does not appear to be any growths on it, more like it has cracks in it. His mouth does protrude out, the  
bottom more so than the top. I can see what appear to be blood vessels under the skin in this area, and he is no longer able to  
close his mouth completely. It does not appear to bother him, as he is still eating quite well. But I am concerned that what originally  
looked like a "not so perfect specimen" now looks like something is obviously wrong. I did search your FAQs, and did find a couple of  
posts about tumors of the mouth, but neither of the posts offered a description for comparison. If this is a tumor, do you have any advice for a remedy?
<Maybe a tumor, perhaps a genetic anomaly... could be resultant from a "bump" long ago... No remedy though...>
Are my other fish in any danger?
<Highly unlikely, no>
I am not certain if this is related, but I have twice seen him breathing rapidly out of a single gill only (found several posts on this as well, but no clear answers),
<Probably not a problem or related. Just something they do at times>
but minutes later was breathing normally. Oh yes - water quality is excellent, with near zero  
nitrates and phosphates, pH is 8.2, temp 77. The tank is a 240 with 200 lbs. of live rock, though this was only added a few months ago.  
All other fish in the tank have perfect health. His diet includes virtually every frozen marine fish food on the market (I believe in  
variety!) fed twice a day, with dried seaweed fed twice a week. Your help and advice is greatly appreciated.
Dana
<I would soak the foods, algae in a vitamin/HUFA supplement (like Selcon, Microvit...), but otherwise do nothing else here. If this is a developmental disorder, or tumor as you speculate, hopefully it will spontaneously remit. Bob Fenner>

Apolemichthys trimaculatus (three spot angel) odd behavior and possible fin rot  12/04/05
Hello,
<Hi Katja.>
I have a problem with a three spot angel.
<I’m sorry to hear that.>
I've had it for about two years. Over the last week it started swimming oddly, on the side, making loops.
<Yes this is troublesome behavior. Is it limited to this specimen (how is the behavior of the tank mates)? Any sudden changes in environment, how is the diet?>
Before he was swimming around the whole day, while now it makes a short round and retreats to the cave, where it is dark. He hovers a little above the sand turned on his side. He breaths quite quickly
<Possibly a sign of trauma or even gill flukes? Have there been nay new additions to the tank and could they be subjecting the angel to aggression or perhaps an illness even?>
and the other thing I noticed is that it seems as if its tail is getting smaller (as being eaten away) and slightly coloured red. The other day I noticed something like a very tiny white thread (about 1 cm long) hanging from his tail. It later disappeared. The fish still eats. I suspect fin rot, but I would like your opinion on this, before I start medicating it.
<Was the deterioration rapid, as in overnight or did it happen slowly? Hard to say without seeing, even so go ahead and search WWM re: marine angel disease and fin rot.>
The water parameters are fine, with the exception of some nitrates. Other fish are also ok.
<How much nitrates? Please be specific this is important.>
Thanks in advance for your help!
Katja
<Adam J.> 

Sick Koran Angel 10/11/05
Wet Web Crew:
We have a 55 gallon tank with a Koran Angel and a Puffer fish in it. The Koran is about 3-4" long and the puffer is about 3-4" long. They get along very well. The tank has some live rock in it and also some decorative rock. 
About two days ago we noticed that both fish had white spots all over their fins and bodies. We thought it was Ich and treated them for it. It did clear up, but when we read about the symptoms of Ich, it did not sound like that is what they actually had.
The Koran Angel now has cloudy eyes, a swollen pink mouth and white blotches over his body. He has been stressed over the last few days due to tank changes to treat the ich a fresh water dip for only a few seconds, and a lack of appetite. 
The tank he was in when we thought he had ich was dirty due to overfeeding, something I did not know could be so harmful and the water had a bit of a high nitrate level, but not too bad. We did a water change, cleaned all the equipment and put the puffer and angel back in. 
Today, one day after being returned to the tank, the angel developed these symptoms. I had noticed him swimming on his side sometimes over the last few weeks, but he was eating and acting healthy. Do you have any idea what this disease could be and what would cure it? I'm afraid that if we don't know something for sure soon, the angel won't make it. We would appreciate any help. Thank you.
By the way, we view your site a lot and find it very helpful. 
<David and Heather, I cringe when I read queries such as yours. A picture comes into my mind of very poor diet, poor water parameters, and poor maintenance which includes weekly 10% water changes and add to the fact that your 55 is too small for keeping these types of fish as they do grow quite large. I'm seeing a rise in ammonia due to excess waste and a biofiltering system too small to recover. All this leads to severe stress of the animals in question making them highly susceptible to disease. 
I can suggest that both fish should be separated for the time being either in separate Quarantine tanks or using a tank divider if QT's are not available. Then you need to get a product such as SeaCure Copper Treatment along with a FasTest Copper test kit and maintain a dose of 0.015-0.020 for a minimum of 21 days. The test kit is necessary especially if you are going to treat in the main tank. 
Hopefully you can save the fish. You didn't mention what you initially treated the fish with and for how long. In the future do more research on the fish you are buying so you know its requirements/needs. James (Salty Dog)>

Re: Sick Koran Angel 10/12/05
Actually, our biofiltering system is larger than what we need for the tank and when these fish outgrow the tank they are in we are transferring them to an 80 gallon tank. 
<Good news. The Koran alone would require a 70 gallon tank when it is full grown and this is borderline, preferably a six foot long tank.> 
I appreciate your advice and assure that we take good care of our tanks.
<Great> 
We have three of them. something just went wrong in this one. We did a 25-30% water change before putting the fish back in the tank and the nitrate level was never high. We checked it very regularly. At this time, they are both small and the tank seems big enough for the two of them. 
<Agreed, now it is but won't be for long.>
Can you tell me if this is true? Do they need a bigger tank now, even though the puffer and angel are not full grown? 
<A rule of thumb I use is one cubic (not length) inch of fish per five gallons.> 
It sounds like you are not positive we can save the fish - which would break my heart. 
<I'm always on the positive side. Problem is if treatment is delayed the fish only gets worse and then to the point where the copper treatment even adds further stress.>
The puffer is lethargic this morning and I don't know if he was sleeping or whether he is not developing symptoms as well - can the disease be spread? 
<Most definitely. Do you employ a quarantine tank to put new arrivals in? Read here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm>
I really am sorry about all this. Our other two tanks are fine. 
<Great> 
One is a reef tank and we have lost nothing from that tank in months. We did introduce a Petco baby tank 
<baby tank or tang?> 
into the tank with the puffer and angel - it died in two days. Could this possibly have been the start of these diseases. <Yes, tanks/tangs are ich magnets and should definitely be quarantined.>
If I treat the angel with copper, does it have a better chance of living? I have read that angel fish are extremely sensitive to copper treatments. 
<Correct, that is why it is a must to use a copper test kit to insure copper is at a safe and effective level.>
I'm sorry that the tank was not better cared for, 
<You don't have to be sorry to me, but it sure sounds like you are a caring person that will do whatever it takes to keep your stock healthy. Please read more on the WWM. FAQ's allow you to learn from other peoples mistakes. Again, research a fish you are interested in, especially care level, compatibility and size of tank required. www.liveaquaria.com  has a chart for every fish indicating the above.> 
but I assure you that we did test the water and because of the filtering system on the tank, everything always seemed fine. However, our test kit cannot test for calcium and some of the more advanced water test items. 
<Wouldn't be too concerned with calcium in a fish only tank, although too low a level can cause the ph to drop somewhat. Do test for dKH, 8-12dkh is recommended.> 
I honestly thought I was doing the right thing and would hate to lose these fish over my lack of knowledge. 
<All the knowledge you need can be had for free on the WWM.> 
Any additional advice you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. I know I asked a lot of questions in this e-mail and hope you will be kind enough to answer them. 
<We are here to help. Most if not all of the questions you ask can easily be found on the Wet Web by just typing in the keyword.>
The angel does seem a bit better today and I got both fish to eat some Krill last night. Their diet is now more varied than it was, and I hope it is not too late. Losing these fish would break my heart because it would be my own fault for lack of
knowledge. 
<Again, Heather, definitely read about what you are getting. Korans are not that difficult to care for. They do require clean water, low nitrates, 10% weekly water changes and a good and varied diet. Read again here. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/ - Good luck, James (Salty Dog)> 

Tang with Ick Question 10/11/05
Hello Crew: 
<Hi Stan, James here today>
I currently have a purple tang and a desjardini tang in my QT (20gal)
<<RMF would NOT mix two tang species in QT>>
 which I plan on adding to my 150 gal reef system once they pass QT.  They've been there for about a week and are both eating like little pigs and seem to be doing fine. I've been feeding them a
variety of foods which includes Spectrum Thera-A Anti-Parasitic Formula, Julian Sprung's Seaveggies, Ocean Nutrition Marine Pellets Formula 2, Kent Marine Platinum Reef Herbivore Fish Food which are sometimes soaked in Vita Chem. 
However, in the last couple of days, I've noticed some white spots on my purple tangs body and fins. Can't really see if the desjardini has
these same spots or not because the spots are not as contrasting as on the purple tang. I assume it's ick, or the beginning of it. So I looked here and read some articles that hyposalinity and/or a cleaner shrimp might do the trick without medications. So I added a shrimp a few days ago and then this weekend started researching how to do the hyposalinity treatment. 
<<Not with the shrimp present. RMF>>
Instead of finding out how, I found more articles claiming that hyposalinity was a waste of time and wouldn't work long term. So I guess my question is, how would one go about treating ick long term in QT? Isn't that what a QT tank is for?
<<Not really what "quarantine is for"... a period to review, observe health, behavior, possibly treat there/then... but also for "rest". RMF>>
 I know everyone has different opinions, but what do most people do?  Medicate? If so with what? Any help would be very much appreciated. 
<Stan, if it were me, rather then stress the fish out with hyposalinity treatment, I would treat with copper. A copper test kit is a must along with daily testing to insure an effective and safe level is kept. Recommended dose to maintain is 0.015-0.020ppm.
<<Dude! Of what? Free copper/cupric ion... PLEASE understand that there is a difference in reading/s with chelated copper and their corresponding kits. RMF>>
 I would treat for a minimum of 21 days @ 80 degree temperature. The ick cyst casings are unaffected by the copper so we have to wait till all hatch out where at this stage they can be effectively killed by the copper. The ich that is embedded in the skin of the fish also is pretty much unaffected by the copper. Only in the swimming stage, after hatching and when they have to find a host, is when they are most vulnerable to copper. James (Salty Dog)>

Tang with Ick Question ? - Follow-up 10/11/05
Thanks James (Salty Dog):
OK. So a treatment with copper it is. Any recommendations as to what copper brand / type to use? Isn't there chelated or non chelated ? 
<Yes, there are chelated/non chelated types. If it were me I'd go with Aquarium Systems Sea Cure Copper treatment along with their FasTest Copper Test Kit. Fortunately for me I've never had to treat a tank in 10+ years, but if the problem arose, the above would be my choice.><<... three weeks... with an unchelated copper... on tangs? I would NOT do this... I'd go with two weeks, and a chelated make/model with accompanying at least daily tests. RMF>>
And I assume that I need to move the cleaner shrimp to my main tank since he won't make it thru the copper treatments right ? 
<Stan, all inverts must be removed. Google our WWM site on copper treatment for more info. James (Salty Dog)> 

Chrysurus Angel Help  10/4/05
Hi,
<Howdy>
Oliver Lucanus suggested I drop you an email (Gwen Grignon, one of my staff,
also thinks the world of you).
<Mmm, and don't know if Gwen Loiselle is still in your employ (one of the
retail outlets), and likely we know of each other through my wife, Diana...
who distributed Knop Products in N. Am... oh, she is saying that she dealt
with Dionne (sp?)>
  We have, in our shop and all ready for a customer, a large Chrysurus
angel.  We've had him for almost a month, though he has yet to eat.  He
spits out everything we try to feed, including (in no particular order):
- frozen and freeze-dried krill
- brine shrimp
- mysis shrimp
- fresh clams
- fresh mussels
- live sponge from Florida
- Nori soaked in garlic, Entice, Selcon
- freshwater japonica shrimp
- button polyps
<I see>
We are getting desperate.  He is in a 100 gallon holding tank.  He started
off alone, but we've since added in a yellow tang in hopes that the tang
will 'show him how to eat'.
<Good idea, technique... I use genus Abudefduf damsels...>
  Shortly after arrival here (via Quality Marine), he got sick with a
parasite looking more like Oodinium than ick, which we treated with Formalin
bathes in his aquarium (he was not moved, we just brought him back on system
afterwards) with quick, positive results.  There is no other medication in
the system, and all other fish in the system are healthy.
We are willing to try anything to get this poor creature to eat.  Do you have any ideas?
<A few... you don't mention vitamin supplementation... this addition can
really stir feeding at times... on the food, directly to the water... Zoe,
Selcon, Microvit... And freshly opened shellfish... like the mussels you
mention above... with the shell still on... And, as odd as this may seem,
jellyfish (live or preserved), which this angel species consumes quite a bit
of in the wild. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Best regards,
Brent Mills
Big Al's - Montreal, Canada

Emperor angelfish with Ich 9/28/05
I have a fish only tank with live rock, tank size is 125 gallons with over 
125 pounds of live rock. I just purchased an emperor angel that is in the stages
of changing, I made sure to take extra care in picking this fish out, no
signs of problems with it when I bought it from the fish store, brought it home
and acclimated it to my tank. The next morning I notice it had Ich on its
body and none of the other fish have anything wrong with them even my yellow
eyed tang with can get Ich very easy. I am planning on doing my weekly 10%
water change tomorrow and I am wondering should I do a Formalin dip on the fish in a
one gallon  bucket with the water I take out or should I just wait the disease
out since it  is only on one fish and may be due to stress of the fish.
Please let me know and  I enjoy the web site very much haven't had to ask for any
help yet as everything is on the site, thank you much. <Please check grammar, caps etc, then resend.  As most of these queries are posted, we just don't have the time to edit queries before posting. <James (Salty Dog)><<James... too late... this fish was not quarantined, the whole system "has" ich/crypt now... refer folks to appropriate parts of the site... RMF>>

Angel Fish Deaths  9/21/05
Over the past year, we have had multiple angel fish deaths.  They have
all occurred suddenly without any apparent injury to the other fish in
the tank. The saltwater tank has been set up for two years, and we do
regular water changes, and have no abnormalities in the water.
Currently, we have a damsel fish, two clown fish, and a yellow tang, in
addition to shrimp, crabs, and snails with live rock.  Each new addition
to the 70 gallon tank (all have been angel fish. a blue angel, six bar
angel, coral beauty, and flagfin angel) have lived for a couple months,
and then died suddenly.  Prior to their death, they appear well
integrated into the tank, have no outward abnormalities, no signs of
trauma, and are eating well.  We can't seem to figure out what the cause
of death could be.  Please provide any suggestions to help.  Could there
be any other hard metal abnormalities even though that we use a RO/DI
filter?  Copper, lead, and iron testing have all been negative.   Thanks
for the help, Dale  <First impression is you are not meeting their requirements/diet, etc.  Read some of the articles here, Dale.  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/
James (Salty Dog)> <<Also, most of the angels mentioned are not hardy for aquarium use... RMF>>

Acclimation, Angel 9/12/05
Hi <Hello> I am new to WWM but have been passively reading many many of your  
articles to become better educated in the marine area. <Good idea>  I recently  purchased a
juvenile emperor angel and placed him in a quarantine tank for  observation
before placing him in with my main tank.  I gave him a 2 minute  fresh water
(straight RO water at 78 F) bath and then placed him in the  quarantine tank.  This
is a 10 gal. tank with a 45 degree 4" PVC elbow in it  for refuge.  It is again
RO water at 78 F medicated with copper,<copper should only be used when necessary.  It's adding undue stress to the fish.> and  aerated with a small stone and
filtered through carbon.  The first night  and next morning he (she?) looked
fabulous.  The fish ate a small amount of  Formulae 2 and one Mysis shrimp that I
offered.  The fish swam around  curiously and seemed just fine.  
The next morning I found him at the bottom not swimming around  anymore.  I
decided to check the salt content (don't get too mad here) and  discovered I
had messed up mixing when I set of the tank (doh!).  It was at  1.032 SG!  I
slowly (over 4 hours) diluted it back down to