Spotfin Frogfish, A. nummifer, comp., sys.   7/12/09
Hi Crew.
<Jim>
I just picked up what I am fairly certain is a Spotfin frogfish in trade for some coral last night. I was tentatively planning on a species-only tank in my office at work, and I likely will still go that route, but I was reading on the angler compatibility FAQ, and I found what seems to be a lot of directly contradictory advice. I was hoping you could clarify for me.
<Will try>
As for tank size, one of the responses (in the compatibility FAQ) recommends a minimum size of 75G for an A. commerson, which of course gets bigger than A. nummifer, but I also think I remembered a similar recommendation for A. pictus, which I believe grows to about the same size.
Yet in another response in the same FAQ, I read:
<begin quote>
Okay, back to the angler. I am running another overflow from the refugium into a 10 gallon tank which will house the maculatus. This tank will drain to the sump. It currently has about 20 lbs of live rock and a 3" fine aragonite bed. So here are my questions:
1) I chose a 10g tank as it would be easier to feed and view this small angler. With the ability to transfer to larger quarters in the future, are there ethical issues of housing this fish (alone) in a tank so small?
<Actually, no! I was fortunate enough to spend part of last weekend with author Scott Michael, who is an absolute Frogfish fanatic! He says that a small tank is actually a better way to go for these fish, for a few reasons. First, it keeps them near their food! Also, they are just not particularly active fish, as you are aware. Finally, they tend to get "lost" in a larger tank, where they will blend in with the surrounding decor. He told me that he even keeps one on his desk in a small Eclipse aquarium!>
<end quote>
I realize that the 10G of which the writer was speaking was plumbed to a much larger system, but it doesn't sound like Eclipse on a desktop was!
I own a 20G high with an eclipse hood, but figured that was too small. I was planning on a 42G hex for a species tank. I _could_ also plumb a smaller 10/15/20G tank in my living room into my 150G fish only with a 30G sump. Thoughts?
<Can work>
Then, regarding compatibility, several of the responses basically rule out keeping a frogfish with anything else, i.e.:
I have just a quick compatibility question. I'm planning a big rough n' tumble system and I'm thinking right now I'd like a porcupine puffer, Sohal tang, a trigger and a frogfish.
<These fish are not recommended as tankmates for Frogfish.
Yet in another response, Bob writes:
<< In a large enough system... but do keep your eyes on (and feed minimally)
the Sargassum Fish (Histrio)... as they can/do grow quickly given enough food/feeding... and can swallow fishes near their own size (the Flame will go first). >>
Welcome back Bob, I hope your trip was great.
<Yes my friend, thank you>
I am going to be keeping him in a 50 g tank with just the Huma Trigger and The Red Volitans. I am ordering a small one from Flying Fish express I think that means 1"-3".
<Likely>
The Huma I
plan to put in there is about 3"-4" and the lion is about 5 or 6 maybe larger. Would they be ok until June?
<I give you very good odds. Bob Fenner>
I thought lions were a particularly bad idea with frogfish. Is this difference specific to H. histrio?
<Mmm, no>
For my specific case, I was considering the possibility of adding my A. nummifer to my 150G fish only, which currently houses an 8" Foxface, a 7" male bluejaw trigger, a 6" Koran angel, a 5" morpho, and a 2.5" damsel, which I would probably move elsewhere. I know someone is going to tell me my tank is already too crowded with 5 whole fish in it, but I am running a 30G sump and a massive protein skimmer, and everyone does just fine. But would the frogfish be okay in there? He's currently about 2.5", but would obviously grow.
<Will likely do fine... there is some small chance the trigger may bite it... and make it hard to feed here.... but...>
Thanks in advance for clearing up my confusion.
Jim
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Spotfin Frogfish, A. nummifer  7/12/09
Thanks, Bob. One further question: in your opinion would a 42 hex be adequate for a species tank?
<For this species of Antennariid, yes... in fact, can be quite spectacular!
Look to arranging the rockwork to provide a prominent "lookout" ledge some short distance from the bottom... Bob Fenner>

Questions on Antennatus tuberosus... sys., fdg.   12/23/08
Happy Holidays WWM Team!
<And to you and yours Art>
Please allow me to first say thank you for all you do for us, sharing your knowledge to the head scratchers all over the world.
<Heee, am one myself>
I now come with my curiosity on my frogfish (Antennatus tuberosus). I've had this fella for 3 months now, originally in a 55 gallon with 3 inches sand and 50-ish lbs of live rock, with a Domino Damsel about 2.5X his size and a Scooter Blenny. The first two months he ate his worth of feeder shrimp, 3 or so per week.
The past month I moved him over to his very own 8 gallon nano reef with 2.5 inches of sand and 10-ish lbs of live rock. If it makes a difference, coral includes 5 half-dollar sized mushrooms and a frag of pagoda. There's also Chaeto the size of a fist to help with water quality. I feed using tweezers.
It seems it only eats about 2 (lately only one) shrimp per week now, and on split feedings (1 at middle of the week, 1 at the end). Is this common?
Could the nano be the culprit? Should I even be worried?
<Mmm... I'm always leery of potential problems with small volumes... they can/do change chemically, physically... and hence biologically much too quickly at times... and though not at all fast moving, Anglers do produce goodly amounts of waste... How big is this individual? It is likely "small enough", as the species tops out at 9 cm.:
http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=11150>
I acknowledge that this species is not commonly found in the trade.
Consequently, there aren't too many care sheets for the Antennatus species online as well. I've even checked Fishbase and even frogfish.ch, but not to much avail. If there's any special requirements for the Antennatus that I could use, I'd greatly appreciate the help. Thank you in advance :-)
Warmest Wishes,
Art F.
<Mmm, I have never seen this fish offered in the trade... I think it should be fine in the small tank, but maybe the Cnidarians are mal-affecting it some way... If in doubt, I would move it back to the 55, even a refugium tied into a larger system. Using willingness to take food for Frogfishes is a good indicator of health IMO/E. Bob Fenner>

Hello, I have a 16 gallon bioglobe aquarium with a hairy frogfish. Sys.  4/9/08
<Needs more room...>
The tank has a
uplift tube and an under-gravel filter. My question is, would it be more beneficial to use an air pump or an powerhead on the uplift tube. The air pump allows the surface of the water to break better, while the powerhead allows more circulation in the tank but minimum water turbulence at the surface. What is more important in properly oxygenating the tank?
<Good question... and the "real" response is that none of the above will work in time to provide adequate aeration, circulation or filtration for this Antennariid in this setting... So, rather than lead you on re your chances of success here, I advise your reading on WWM re the care of the family and general marine set up:
http://wetwebmedia.com/anglersysfaqs.htm
and here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm
The indices on Set Up. Bob Fenner>

Angler Fish/Systems 4/408
Hello all at WWM,
<Hi Andy>
Thanks once again for the great information on your site - It has help me considerably since setting-up my 70G FOWLR.
<You're welcome.>
Although I would have to admit to making more than my fair share of mistakes....and probably quite a few since, but I am definitely learning.
<Understand here, keep reading/learning.>
In my 70G I have a very happy Painted Angler (2.5 - 3.0 inches in length) and Snowflake Moray (12 inch). They have lived happily for the past 5 months but after the disappearance of their other tank mate (and a very full angler) I want to move the Angler into its own quarters, before considering any further additions to my 70G. I have read on your site that some experts recommend quite small tanks for Anglers, sometimes even Nano tanks.
<With Angler Fish being large waste producers, I would not keep in anything less than a 55 gallon tank. An efficient filter system is a necessity.>
And now my question(s).
1) What filtration should be provided in such a small quantity of water? I have seen some 10G tanks which have built in skimmer, filter, UV and heater and I am unsure if this would be anywhere near adequate.
<Would not be.>
2) If this was a sensible move - Could I simply take some of the Live Rock, sand and water from the Anglers current tank and move the Angler immediately ? or would it be safer to start this from scratch ?
<Do read FAQ's here and related articles. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anglerfishes.htm>
Many Thanks for your help on this,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Kind Regards, Andy.

Frogfish Not Eating – 9/29/07
<Hello, Brenda here>
I have this frogfish and it is very sick. I noticed it today and would like to know what is wrong with it. The frog fish is 2.5 inches and has been living in a 15 gallon tank for 1 month.
<This is an extremely small tank for this fish. Is this your quarantine tank? A 15g tank is likely very stressful on this fish.>
It recently stopped eating and its skin has started to turn crusty and black.
<Is a common problem for these fish.>
Every time I feed him he just starts coughing it out. He also has been acting weird like swimming around a lot which is weird because he never does that. I know he is not trying to camouflage, he has never turned black. I am not able to identify what kind of frogfish it is because the place where I bought it said it was assorted. I feed it krill and I just changed the water yesterday.
<Have you tested your water parameters? Try feeding live saltwater feeder shrimp. More information on these fish can be found here: http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=76&N=0 and here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anglerfdgfaqs.htm Brenda>

Wartskin Frogfish (Antennarius maculatus) Care Questions   2/20/07
I think I've just fallen in love with warty frogfish (Antennarius maculatus)!
<Hee!  Easy to do in my opinion!>  
I have a 2'6" 96 L (25 gallons) tank that I am considering turning into a nano reef, would this be feasible for one of these fish?
<Yes, this fish stays relatively small, at 4 inches and isn't exactly a big swimmer!  Twenty-gallon tank would be the smallest recommended.   More info here:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anglerfishes.htm  >
Obviously he would be the only fish in there but do you think he would eat an urchin?
<I don't know if he would eat it, but I would be afraid he might be injured by it, so I'm not sure these two would make good tank mates.>
Also, what do you think would be better, a refugium, a skimmer or both?
<Both!!!>
Thank you so much in advance
<You're welcome!  -Mich>
Will

JBJ 24Dx set-up, Angler Systems   3/15/06
Hello,
I have been setting up a JBJ 24Dx nanocube, possibly becoming a nanoreef in the future.  We still have the stock equipment that came with it, I believe 2x36W PC lighting with moonlight and the stock filter.  It has a bag of ceramic rings, a bunch of bioballs, 2 bags of carbon, and some foam pads.  We've been reading through the book and this site and had some questions about the setup.
We know we can only put some corals in the tank close to the lighting, since it's only 3W a gallon.  At the moment we have about 10lb of live rock in there, curing another 15 or so in a separate tank.  The tank's been set up and cycled for about a month, here are the inhabitants:
1 tank-raised ocellaris clown, 1 orange honey chromis, 4 hermit crabs or various types, 1 tiger turbo grazer, and 1 blue coral banded shrimp.  We're planning on leaving the last in until he has taken care of the large amount of bristleworms we have, then removing him and maybe adding a skunk cleaner.  Would we be fine with a Current USA Fission skimmer for handling the skimming in the back compartment, along with the given filter stuff, or should it be modified?
<Should work stock>
As it is, we're planning on the skimmer in the first compartment, pre-filter, then foam pad, then bio/carbon in the last.  Also, the optimum water level in the instructions for the skimmer looks like with a high water level the skimmer will be a little too low in the water.  If it goes any higher, it might hit the cover for the lights and get pushed down.
Also, would a clown goby or a pair go well in this setup, or a royal Gramma instead?
<Gobiodon's live best in large small-polyped (Acropora mostly) "reef" systems... where they can hide amongst and eat the polyps. I would not place a Gramma sp. in such a small volume>
The tank so far has plenty of copepod/amphipod growth in the sand/rock, the chromis likes munching them off the sides between meals, but nowhere near enough to sustain a fish.
To your knowledge, is there a good way to change the flow from the pump for the filter?  We've taken it out and there's no adjustment knob or switch or anything, is there any good way to modify it to tweak the output?
<Not as far as I'm aware. Systems are quite "flexible" with increasing size... more restricted the smaller>
This doesn't relate to the current tank.  I'm looking (in maybe a year or so, maybe more or less) to setting up a tank for a frogfish.  I'm planning on the smallest one I can get around here, not sure which that will be.  With a high quality skimmer, decent lighting, plenty of rock, maybe an efficient canister filter of some sort, would I be alright with a 20 gallon for just the fish and potentially some hermit crabs or snails?
<Mmm, likely only when the specimen was small... there are some antennariid species that are very small throughout their lives, but these rarely make their way into the trade>
  I know what kind of feeding I would have to do for him, and I'm prepared to do as much maintenance as it would tank.  Would a 20 gal be adequate, or would I have to look bigger?
<Likely larger. Don't move around much, but are copious waste producers>
Like I said, this will be in the future, so I have plenty of time to check out info on brands and exactly what I would need.  Thanks for the help!
Alex
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Angler in a fuge 7/27/05
Hello all,
  I have recently gotten a comment from someone in my reef club that my set
up for keeping my angler is unsuitable. Though I thought it was fine, my
pet's best interests are always top priority, so I'd like to check with the
expert experts.
<Mmm, is this a group of folks who flowed under pressure who advise others
who have done the same? Ex spurts?>
She is in a 5 gallon refugium, lit on a 12 hour reverse photoperiod. There
is about 2" of sand and it is field with Caulerpa, but not so much she
cannot move. Quite the contrary, she can get at a Ghost Shrimp anywhere in
the tank at any time. The refugium is hooked up to a 15 gallon reef tank,
which gets a 2 gallon water change every other day. The Angler gets feedings
of Formula 1 soaked in garlic on water change days (she'll eat anything that
hits the surface). Once a month, she'll get 12 or so ghost shrimp. Now, the
issue this person seemed to have was the space, which I never saw as a
problem because Anglers are sedentary. She rarely ever leaves her perch in
the upper right hand corner of the tank. I always figured anglers did not
need much space at all. So, what's your take on it, guys? Is she too cramped
in there? Should I find her a new home? Is the fact that she is eating,
growing, and generally doing well enough to warrant her stay in my house?
Let me know
Mike G
<Sounds fine to me... will need more space as time goes by if this is a
larger (likely a Commerson) species. Bob Fenner>

Angler Fish
I currently have three FW tanks (all single-species and sparsely populated)   I'm planning to venture into FOWLR... I have a 29 gal tank that I want to keep one solitary angler fish in--the LFS labeled him "painted" he gets to approx 12". My questions-- Is the tank large enough? <If it is small now, you can get away with it for the time being, but a 60 or 70 gallon would  be my choice for the full grown with it being the only fish.> Do I need a skimmer for
this rather inactive fish? <The inactivity has nothing to do with it, it is the waste that it produces.  You could use a product like Chemi Pure in your filter that would work quite well as they have scavenging resins that can remove waste that carbons will not.> What could I offer as food instead of feeder goldfish, since they may cause digestive problems?  I want him to be happy and healthy! <I've had one quite some time ago and I had a 10 gallon tank with four or five female mollies with one male.  I'd feed the babies frozen newly hatched brine shrimp which got them growing rather fast.  This is what I used for food.  Read here for more info. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anglerfishes.htm Thanks for your time. <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)> Laurie B.

Frogfish Fun
Hi all!,
<Hi there! Scott F. at your service!>
I have a small (1") Antennarius maculatus coming out of quarantine in two weeks.
<What a great fish! GREAT procedure, quarantining the fish!>
It has been tolerating fw dips and eaten a few guppies and at least one live Mysis. I currently have a 180g display tank, upstream 100g refugium planted with Ulva and Halimeda (I have yet to find a source of Thalassia in Tokyo) and a 20 gal sump w/ skimmer, ozone and carbon. Two 1500 gph pumps return sump water to display (5 ft or so), and an Eheim 1060 sending water from sump to refugium and it's overflow to display. All three tanks have a 3-4" sugar sized, aragonite substrate. This system has been up for 3 months and the display currently houses live rock (about 150 lbs), a few tiny Acropora frags, and a bunch of macro-detritivores; needless to say, it looks a little barren but I am proceeding slowly.
< Nothing wrong with going slowly. Sounds like a wonderful, well-thought-out system! BTW, Thalassia requires a deep sand bed (5-6 inches or more) to do well in...>
Okay, back to the angler. I am running another overflow from the refugium into a 10 gallon tank which will house the maculatus. This tank will drain to the sump. It currently has about 20 lbs of live rock and a 3" fine aragonite bed. So here are my questions:
1) I chose a 10g tank as it would be easier to feed and view this small angler. With the ability to transfer to larger quarters in the future, are there ethical issues of housing this fish (alone) in a tank so small?
<Actually, no! I was fortunate enough to spend part of last weekend with author Scott Michael, who is an absolute Frogfish fanatic! He says that a small tank is actually a better way to go for these fish, for a few reasons. First, it keeps them near their food! Also, they are just not particularly active fish, as you are aware. Finally, they tend to get "lost" in a larger tank, where they will blend in with the surrounding decor. He told me that he even keeps one on his desk in a small Eclipse aquarium!>
2) Are there benefits to include the refugium in this chain or would I be better off with return water directly from the sump? My refugium generates a quantity of Gammarus and small copepods. I still have to buy live Mysis. The little fellow seems to show little interest in 'pods.
<They usually don't but I certainly see no harm in him seeing some 'pods float in now and then!>
3) Can I stock this nanotank with mushrooms and polyps? Xmas tree worm rock? Are there issues with nematocysts stinging the 'feet' of my fish?
<Should not be a problem, but be aware that some of the larger, "Elephant Ear" mushrooms (Amplexidiscus species) can and do actually ingest fish!>
Any allelopathic issues with the Acros and mushrooms/polyps because they share water space (although not tank space)?
<Should not be a problem, for the most part>
4) Are there any glaring issues that I may have over looked?
<Just try to give your Antennarius a varied diet and good water quality...He should be fine.>
Thank you much in advance. I read the FAQs daily and have set up my system according to your recommended methodologies, equipments, and ethics.
<So many good ways to accomplish the same thing, aren't there?>
The service you provide has improved the quality of life for both keeper and kept. Regards, Bryan Gim
<Thank you much for the kind words, Bryan. I'm so proud to be a part of this crew, and always am thrilled to talk to my fellow hobbyists! I learn something every day! Good luck!  Scott F.>

Frogfish Question
Dear WWM:  
I am setting up a ten gallon tank for a 3 to 4 inch Warty Frogfish.  I put in some coral frags and LR.  I also added 1 turbo snail and 1 small emerald crab.  I know they will eat shrimp and fish that are their size or slightly larger, but what about a turbo or crab?  Are they at risk?  Thanks,
<Mmm, well, this tank is too small ultimately for this species... and unfortunately they do have a reputation for swallowing whole most anything live that will fit in their mouth... If still interested... a much larger system is called for... with larger tankmates. Bob Fenner>
Janey

Re: Frogfish Question
Thanks for the quick reply:)  How would a 20 long be for a frogfish only
tank?
<Mmm, let's get "down to it" here... are you talking about THE warty frogfishes (family Brachionichthyidae), aka handfishes... of southern Australia? These four species top-out at about 15 cm. (six inches to you Yanks)... a twenty would work for one of these fishes... but a forty would be better! Other frogfish species (family Antennariidae) can get much, MUCH larger... Bob Fenner>
Janey

Re: Frogfish Question
Dear Bob:
I was referring to A. maculatus.  Not sure where they are from but some call
it the  "Clown" or "Warty" Frogfish.
<Oh yes. Our coverage of this species here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anglerfishes.htm>
I thought they were about 6cm. long.
<Actually, to about 9 cm... but under four inches standard length>
Please advise if I'm getting wrong info.  I saw one that was 4 inches long
being kept in a 6 gallon Eclipse.  I will definitely be getting a 20 L for
mine:)  Thanks for sharing your expertise!
<Ahh, much better in the 20 long. Was recently in northern Sulawesi and saw several of these. Very neat, beautiful species. Bob Fenner>
Janey

The Frogfishes Do Get Froggy and They Will JUMP!
>Hello,
>>Hello.
>I have a 20-gallon (24” x 24” x 8”) clam tank set up.  My only intended inhabitants are Tridacnid clams and a few SPS coral frags growing out or small SPS colonies.  There are several small pieces of live rock in there as well.  An opportunity to buy two gorgeous and seemingly healthy juvenile frogfish has fallen into my lap and I’ve been researching like crazy because I’m in love with the idea of putting one or hopefully both of them in this tank.
>>One, not both.
>I am prepared to meet their feeding needs and I think the tank would be perfect.  No one I know has any frogfish experience, so at this point it’s all reading… I was hoping one of you folks could give me your thoughts on this idea.
>>It could certainly work quite well.  Know that you can NOT use copper in any way, shape, or form with frogfishes.  Also, if fresh from the wild, make CERTAIN they're eating--frozen foods if at all possible (from feeding stick).  If you've got the time and the determination, train them yourself to feed from a feeding stick.
>Attached are pictures of the little guys (approx. 1.5” and 2” at
this point).  
>>OH MY GOD THEY'RE GORGEOUS!  I'd set up another tank just to have them both.
>We aren’t certain on the identification, but think the yellow one is a Warty and the red is A. pictus.  What do you think?
>>Common nomenclature is very difficult to work with.  It would be helpful to know where they were collected, as this would narrow down the search considerably.  I suggest searching http://www.fishbase.org  In any event, you can count on them to follow some typical behavior patterns (as I'm sure you know): reluctance to swim about (great for a small system), a predisposition to want live food only (juvies can be much more easily trained to take frozen/non-live foods, though).  Do plan on more frequent water changes, even with the clams, and you may want to skim more aggressively.  Other than that, I think it's a great idea, could look really gorgeous.  Marina
Thanks, Cheri

The Frogfishes Do Get Froggy and They Will JUMP! II
>Marina,
>>Yes, Cheri?
>Thank you for the reply to my Frogfish questions.
>>Very welcome, and my pleasure.  Those were a couple of great shots, too.
>I am curious about the title you gave, "The Frogfishes Do Get Froggy and They Will JUMP!" You don't really mean that they can jump do you?? It was just supposed to be funny??
>>Oh my goodness no!  They're the closest thing to a vertebrate SLUG I've seen.  Yes, it was meant to add some humor to our typical day.
>The idea that I can only have one frogfish per tank is the conclusion I'd come to from all my reading (12 pages of links from a Google search so far!).
>>It's more the size of the tank itself that's an issue, as predators such as froggies tend to be high polluters.
>With that in mind, I started thinking like you - setting up another tank just so I could have the other one too! How about this crazy idea - behind our 180-gallon tank is a half bathroom. On our bathroom counter will soon be a 39-gallon refugium for that tank.  
>>I know right where you're going with this, and a 39 gallon would be great for a young frogfish.
>It will have a deep sand bed, a few pieces of live rock and some Gracilaria...nothing else. I figure having a refugium on your bathroom counter is bizarre enough. Why not go all the way to outlandish by putting a really cool frogfish in there?
>>Indeed!  Why NOT?
>He's not going to be interested in the amphipods or copepods and won't eat macro algae, so I don't think he'd compromise any of the ideas of what a refugium is all about...
>>Absolutely agreed.  Although, I suggest a shift in thinking (I'm learning this idea is quite common), instead of thinking of a refugium solely as a "refuge", think of it more as a "living filter" instead.  
>If he's got some live rock to hold onto, would he care if some
Gracilaria were slowly tumbling above him?
>>Not at all.
>Talk about interesting things to look at while you are just sitting.... What do you think?
>>I think it's the next best thing to toilet paper and "the library"!
>BTW - from everything I can tell, the yellow one appears to be Antennarius maculatus. Not at all sure on the red one yet though.
>>Yeah, getting down to counting dorsals and all can be a PAIN.
>Thanks for your help, Cheri
>>Again, most welcome, my pleasure.  Also, FYI, on a reef board I'm associated with there is an individual by the nick of "Righty" who's just gotten his first frogfish.  Go to http://www.reefs.org and look up those search terms.  You'll need to register to see his pictures.  I've visited him once, and he's got a RIGHTEOUS reef system, the man is gifted when it comes to this stuff.  You may find additional information there, as well.  Marina

Books on Scorpaeniform, antennariiform fishes... husbandry
Hi folks,
<Vincent>
can you tell me if there are books dedicated wholly to Scorpionfishes,
Stonefishes or Anglerfishes? So far the only book which I've come
across which has the biggest section on these fishes is Scott W
Michael's Reef Fishes Vol. 1. Desperately looking for more books that
cover the husbandry, behaviour and specimen of these amazing creatures.
<There are no such works as far as I'm aware... though some of the upcoming Debelius/Kuiter TMC titles may well offer more insight than currently exists in print. Unfortunately or not, there is just not enough paying interest in these fish groups aquarium use to warrant/attract writers/publishers to produce volumes on their care. Oh, there is an upcoming tome by Anthony Calfo and I on Reef Fishes that should have some coverage of interest... Bob Fenner>