Freshwater Dip gone wrong  - 04/16/06
Hi Crew,
<Hi there, Leslie here with you today!>
After much planning and preparation I finally bought my first 2 fish today (a maroon clown and a royal Gramma). My quarantine tank was ready and my plan was to first do a freshwater dip with Methylene Blue before putting them in the quarantine tank. I am sad to say that I think I’ve killed both fish in the dipping process.
<Oh my, what a bummer.  I am so sorry to hear that.>
I treated the tap water, adjusted the temperature and added the Methylene Blue, but when I added the fish to the dip, it took about 30 seconds and both fish were lying on their side without moving. I immediately removed them and placed them in the quarantine tank.
<Perfect, well done.>
It’s been a couple of hours now and they both seem a bit better, but I don’t know if they are going to survive. Wizards 4 th rule – the greatest harm can be done with the best intentions… I feel like an animal abuser at the moment.
<Awwww  I’m so sorry. You had no way of knowing that they would not tolerate the dip. I can certainly empathize.>
Afterwards I realized that in all the excitement I never checked the pH of the freshwater before dipping them. I’ve done a lot of reading on your site and “pH-shock” is the best explanation I could find.
<I think you are right on.  pH shock often manifests with that side laying posture.>
I don’t know how quickly pH-shock can kill a fish, but something went very wrong very quickly.
< I have seen fish respond as yours and go on to do very well. If they were in good health to begin with they may just need some time to re adjust. They are both hearty species.>
Unless it was something totally different, like a lack of oxygen or something.
<I don’t think so. pH shock sounds like the most likely culprit.>
Any ideas?
< No additional ideas.>
This was my first attempt at a freshwater dip, so just one question – is buffering a freshwater dip simply a matter of adding some “baking soda” until the pH is at an acceptable level?
<Yup>
Other than that, (if I for example use RO water), it is simply a case of getting it to the correct temperature and adding the Methylene Blue, right?
<Nope. The pH of RO water has to be adjusted as well.>
Can’t believe I messed this up. Chris
<Please do not be to hard on yourself. You are not the first and will not be the last person who has forgotten to adjust the pH of a FW dip.  We have all made our fair share of mistakes. We are human and as such not perfect. Mistakes happen and we hopefully learn from them. Best of luck with your new fish, Leslie>

Freshwater Dip gone wrong, continued  - 04/16/06
Hi Leslie,
<Hi there again!>
Thanks a lot for the reply. I feel better now.
<You’re welcome. Glad I could help.>
I failed miserably on my first attempt at a marine tank a couple of years ago and although I have done tons more planning and research on
this new attempt I still can’t help feeling a bit paranoid. Promised myself I will never put anything in my tank without proper quarantine
and research on the animal.. and there I go buying a Maroon clown on impulse today without knowing anything about it. I hope it wasn't a bad
choice (if I haven’t killed it already).
<There you go beating yourself up again. I had to cut my LFS time down to the bare minimum and for absolute necessity only. I only go in with blinders on now because the temptation is just to great. In my case rescuing seahorses was my great downfall. No worries the Maroon Clown is a fine choice.>
I started seeing some brown patches on my live rock in the main tank and worried a bit about a diatom outbreak, but when I looked more closely I
noticed that the brown stuff already seems to be giving way to all sorts of green and red stuff, so hopefully that's a good sign for this new setup of mine.
That's enough rambling from me for one day. Enjoy the rest of your Easter and thanks for the kind words. Chris.
<Enjoy the rest of your Easter as well and you're very welcome, Leslie>

Treating Marine parasites
Anthony, thanks for your thoughts; I agree that FW and Formalin dips can be very effective; what I meant to say was that by "wasting" that first week relying on Kick-Ich, the fish are so weakened that they are past the point of no return.
<ahh... my fault. I misunderstood... but do agree that a lost week can be fatal>
At least, this is what appears to be the case; I had 4 instances where the fish looked ok, tolerated the dip, but expired a day later;
<yes... and it brings up a good point. FW dips are no more sever (less actually) than a long-term medicated bath. A properly conducted FW dip is a safe and effective measure and aquarists can rest assured that any fish that does not survive a single 5 minute FW dip was not likely to survive anyway>
others (same species, same tank) pulled and dipped the first day symptoms noted, recovered. I like the FW dips, have little experience with Formalin, but FW still makes me nervous sometimes.
<understood... its natural to be nervous about the FW. Little worries with Formalin though. Even small scaled species tolerate Formalin (unlike Copper, Malachite, Methylene blue, etc)>
Are there species less  tolerant, with respect to both? Steve.
<there are a handful of relatively uncommon fishes sensitive to FW. A few popular ones too. Be careful with very small and small scaled fishes like blennies, gobies, Chromis, Firefish... as well as high hats/drumfish/croakers, many wrasses and Tuskfish (jumpers). Most of the common and hardy species benefit by FW dips though (tangs, damsels and clowns, triggers, groupers, most angels, etc). Best regards, Anthony>

Re: Lemonpeel angel
Hello, this is Jodie,
<Hi Jodie, Don here today>
I noticed my lemon peel angel had a minute amount of ick, so I gave him a freshwater bath and some parasites popped off of him. I only had him in the bath for maybe 2 min.s.  at the most, so I placed him back in the tank and he went straight to the bottom and breathed hard for about 30 min and then died.  would he have stressed out soo bad that he died???
<So sorry to hear. Did you temperature and pH adjust the dip to match the tank? Did you aerate the water well, before/during the dip? If so, then the fish was likely under extreme duress from the parasite. Don>

Deadly Dip?
Crew:
<Scott F. your crew member tonight!>
I want to both share a story and ask a question : I purchased a previously owned Coral Beauty that was living at the LFS for just 3 hours since the owner repatriated him (her) back to the store after 3 months (tank tear-down.) I watched this fish for quite a while and it appeared very, very healthy, with a strikingly gorgeous blue tone and an insatiable appetitive for brine shrimp.
I did a gradual (45 minute) acclimation procedure mixing the LFS water with small amounts of the destination tank water, vigorously aerating its acclimation bucket, and this guy seemed happy and raring to go the whole time. Then I added Kordon's Methylene Blue, upping the recommended dosage from the bottle's instructions by about two-fold (hearing that it is hard to overdose almost anything on M.B.). I kept her in there about 15 minutes, then transferred her to a pH & temp adjusted fresh water bath (de-chlorinated & pHed with Amquel & Proper pH 8.2.) This lovely creature immediately sunk on its side and never regained
any of its vibrancy from that point forward. After about 5 minutes of the fresh water, I transferred its seemingly shocked body to the destination tank, where it floated to the bottom and made a few feeble attempts at gill-breathing before it convulsed into a rigor mortis - like "C" curve, taking its unbearable beauty and energy to the grave with it, a scant 1 hour after leaving the LFS.
What did I do wrong? Somewhat shamed, SLC
<First of all, SLC- don't blame yourself. It really seems like you did everything right here. The freshwater/Methylene blue technique is successfully used by hobbyists and aquariums around the world, and I have used this technique myself without incident for years. Remember, however, that the purpose of this dip is to induce a certain degree of osmotic shock to potential parasites that might be on the fish's skin. Although this procedure is generally fatal to parasites, which cannot handle the osmotic "stretch" like the fishes can, you will occasionally run into a fish that cannot do well, either. The fish in question was in several different environments in the hours leading up to your tragedy. Perhaps the fish, despite its apparently unaffected behavior, was already stressed seriously...The dip may have "pushed it over the edge". Just a possibility. The bottom line is- you did it right...Don't let this discourage you in the future. Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Epilogue: Deadly Dip
Thanks Crew (Scott F.) for your words of encouragement. I will not get frustrated at this setback, albeit I was hoping that I did *something* wrong to cause this tragedy. It's much easier to change what I did than to accept that underwater critters simply die sometimes, in a mysterious and unpredictable ways. What's most saddening is not the loss of $30, but of a fellow living creature -in my charge -  from this miniscule and fragile water-logged space rock we call Earth! Again Thanks, SLC
<Your attitude is sooo good! Your compassion and love for these animals will bring you continued success for many years to come! Chin up! Regards, Scott F>

Dip
Hello Bob!
How long should a typical dip/bath be for a newly acquired fish or an attempt to slough off ich for small fishes, such as a clownfish or a young Naso? Or should it be based on fishes behaviour while undergoing? 
<Yes. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm>
I introduced a false Percula into my system after a 1 minute or so dip and the little trooper is exhibiting signs of ich. 
<Too short a dip time>
The stages seem rather advanced considering I purchased him on Saturday so I assume I received one that was stressed/infested from the store. The next day a Lysmata Shrimp was alsopurchased to help curb the infestation in the fish's favor and am now raising temp and lowering SPG to also favor host. A territorial damselfish chases the little Perc around so I have isolated the Percula in a large, clear, plastic cylinder with holes and an airstone within the main system to stop the damsel from further stressing the false Perc. Hindsight is 20/20
<I'm quoting you!>
with a quarantine tank; luckily I only have hearty damsels, LR, and some inverts, in the tank other than the Percula so I think I can beat this little outbreak. 
<I'm rootin' for you>
I'll let you know how it turns out have read most of your articles/FAQ regarding ich/parasites so I feel equipped). Thanks.
MLS
Michael L. Stewart
<Be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater dip effectiveness
Dear Bob,
Since I have rapidly spreading bubble algae in my tank, I had been trying to decide on whether to go with a Mithrax crab or a Red Sea Sailfin Tang.
<Perhaps both>
My LFS had the most beautiful 5 inch Red Sea Sailfin tang, and because I've heard that some Mithrax crabs don't actually eat the stuff anyway, I decided to spend the extra $ and go with the Sailfin tang. He had been in their tank for a couple of months, and I visited him often. He was eating well and looked good in the store.
<Ok>
However, I apparently have much better lighting than the LFS, because as I was floating the bag in my tank, I noticed a couple dozen ich spots which were not noticeable in the store!!
<Perhaps became more noticeable during transit/stress>
I continued acclimating him, but immediately mixed up a batch of Methylene blue dip for him. The dip was pretty blue, so I could not see exactly how he was doing in it. But when he appeared to stop thrashing and just lie on his side after about 30 seconds, I took him out, gave a quick dip in another bucket of clear water, and put him into the tank. He was scared at first and breathing heavily, but later came around and began dutifully picking at all of the bubble algae. (YES! This guy is awesome!!)
<Good>
But I am now worried whether everything will be ok, because even after the dip I still see white spots on him. Should these come off in the dip, or do they just stay on and die? 
<The spots aren't actually "living", but marks of/from the fish>
I would really hate to have to quarantine him and stress him out any further. I have a cleaner shrimp who appeared to be beckoning him, but I haven't seen him actually perform any cleaning yet.
Your expert advice is greatly appreciated!
Thank you,
Laura
<Just wait for now... likely all will be fine. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater Dips - Problems
Bob,
Need your help diagnosing what I am doing wrong with my freshwater dip protocol for new fish. In the past, I was using a 'pH right 8.2' type product to adjust the pH but had problems - the fish went nuts (airborne, erratic movements for first 15-30 sec.s, with the fish then falling to the bottom in a motionless state - at which point I would take them out). I started using a pH pen (instead of litmus paper tests) 
<"litmus" means "garbage" in certain native Indian tongues...hehe>
to check the ph and found that I was overshooting the ph with the 8.2 product (I was getting a ph of 9 - 10, which I suspect caused the problem).
<Doh!!!! That will do it, yes>
Anyway, now I use baking soda and a pH pen and seem to have success with freshwater dips, but have problems AFTER the dip. Here's my protocol:
1) Set up quarantine tank (has water from main display tank) temp-77F, PH-8.0-8.2, Alk 9.8,
<OK... although a bit low for future reference on pH and ALK (target 12dKH and 8.3 night to 8.6 day)>
2) set up freshwater dip:
temp 77F, PH 8.0, airstone in 1 gal dip tank runs for 2 hours to oxygenate and continues to run in corner of dip while fish are treated. 
<excellent>
I use Methyl-blue (a 5% mix. I add several drops to the 1 gal dip container until the solution is deep blue).
<fine for most fishes, but do be careful with scale-less and sensitive species... organic dyes are very toxic to some>
3) When I get the fish, I do the following before dipping:
A) - float bag in container of salt water (not same container as dip or q-tank) for 15 min.s to adjust temp to 77F.
<very wise... outside of bag may have contaminants from where it has sat>
B) open bag and pour contents into a hard plastic container.
C) I add salt water (ph=8.0-8.2, alk=9.8, temp=77F) to the plastic container with shipping water gradually, over 30 min.s, until I've tripled the original shipping volume (this is an attempt to slowly adjust the shipping water's PH to 2/3 of the way to PH of 8.0.
<excellent... and you can shorten this for nervous fishes toward 15 minutes>
4) I begin the dip:
I use a small plastic container to scoop the fish out of the container in step#3 instead of a net (minimize stress) 
<agreed>
and attempt to drain most of the water from container used to scoop the fish before adding the fish to the dip mix. The fish seem to tolerate the dip well - 
<as they should... very good protocol thus far>
they may exhibit some rapid movement initially, but continue to swim around throughout the dip - no jumping. 
<agreed...even lethargy is acceptable and common (lying down even on their side "resting" is normal and OK for most>
I run the dip for up to 20 min.s (to eliminate Brooklynella, which I've heard requires a 15 min dip).
<to many peoples surprise I agree with you... Dips less than 3 minutes are a waste of time. Most all fish need a minimum of 5 minutes. I run 5 to 10 minutes. Although going to 15 or even 20 requires close observation and is not recommended with more than a few species (high hats, jacknives, some wrasses, etc)>
5) I move the fish from the dip to the quarantine tank. Here's where the problem begins: The fish sink to bottom, with rapid gill movement, but lethargic fish activity. I had a cinnamon clown that died 1 day later (never recovered from the lethargy) and it had several pinhead sized sores on its body (looked like the flesh had 'popped' under the scales). There were NO sores on the fins. Another angel (keyhole), died within 1 hour of being placed in the q-tank (no visible sores, but it had rapid gill movement/lethargy).
<for starters, Brooklynella is seasonal and uncommon (commonly seen in clowns and Hawaiian species). I think your dip may be longer than needed for most if you do not suspect a virulent pathogen. 5-7 minutes is fine for most pathogens>
What am I doing wrong in step 5? I suspect the fish might become acclimated to the Methyl-blue in the dip, and then suffer oxy starvation when they go to the saltwater q-tank (no Methyl-b). 
<the angel is very sensitive to the organic dye. No dyes or copper for dwarf angels, scaleless fish and more>
Or, I might have too rapidly moved then from freshwater to saltwater and caused a reverse shock (fluid rapid goes out of their body - explaining the pinhead sores in step 5, and possibly damaging gills).
<a brackish acclimation might be nice but is not routine or necessary for most... I think this has mostly to do with the excessive dip time... rarely need that long. Although I'm very glad to see an aquarists with faith who is not shy about dips. Most aquarists fret and dip too short and ineffectively then blame the FW dip for not working>
A few other questions:
A) should I slowly drop the salinity in the freshwater dip (i.e., take them from 1.023 to 1.0 over a two hour period, to reduce stress. 
<more harm than good due to temp issues and extended stress of confinement>
Would this reduce the effectiveness of the dip on parasites)?
<definitely IMO>
B) should I slowly raise the salinity from 1.0 to 1.023 (i.e., over an hour or two) when moving the fish from the FW-dip to the q-tank?
<10 minutes if at all>
C) should I slowly dilute the level of methyl-b (i.e. over an hour or two) when moving the fish from the FW-dip to the QTank - or eliminate it from by FW dip steps? 
<research the appropriateness of M blue by species>
Could the fish become 'acclimated' to the high oxygen environment in the FW caused by the methyl-B, and then be suffocating when I move them to the saltwater
<not in such a short period of time>
Lastly, are FW dips supposed to be this difficult? 
<not at all... short and sweet and very effective. You have almost got it right>
What should I expect the survival rate (up to 5 days after the dip) to be for fish that go thru it - I was expecting it to be in the high 90%.
<agreed. It is more successful and less stress than a drawn out and noxious chemo treatment with medications (as with 21 day copper)>
Thanks!
<best regards, Anthony>