FAQs on Dips/Baths
Methods
Related Articles: Dips/Baths, Methylene Blue, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Quarantine, Tank Troubleshooting, Toxic Tank Conditions, Environmental Disease (incl. Lymphocystis), Nutritional Disease, Infectious Diseases, Parasitic Diseases, Wound
Management (/aquarists), A Livestock
Treatment System,
Related FAQs: Dips/Baths 1, Dips/Baths
2, Dips/Baths 3, & FAQs on
Dip/Bath: Rationale/Use, Tools, Adjusting pH,
Additives, Iodine/ide/ate, Lugol's Use, Methylene Blue, Formalin/Formaldehyde, Dangers Will Robinson, Products, & Best Quarantine
FAQs, Quarantine,
Acclimation 1, Acclimating Invertebrates, Acclimation
of Livestock in the Business,
|
With you in constant attendance...
with aeration for all but the shortest duration
exposure. Dechlorinated/dechloraminated water... pH and
temperature adjusted/matched
|
Re: Duncan coral flesh damage; plus notes on dips f'
6/23/16
Hi Earl,
You were kind enough to help me with a problem I was have with my Duncan coral
and I am happy to say it has fully recovered so thank you for that:)
<Good to hear and you're welcome.>
I have been reading on wet web the last 3 nights about dip/baths because I would
like to do a freshwater/Methylene blue dip on some new fish that I got and I
feel I completely understand the process other than the type of fresh water to
use, I am confused about weather you would use RO/DI or dechlorinated tape water
as the fresh water, I know that you should match the PH and temp but which of
the two water sources is best.
<Full disclosure: first time I did a freshwater dip back in the day (decade+) I
overlooked the pH bit and it was a bad experience, although the fish lived with
us for 9 years. My point being, you're on target and have read carefully. I
would just use whatever water you normally use. Match temp etc. to the
destination environment not the transport/store water. Dechlorinated tapwater is
what I use though RO/DI is fine. Oxygenation is also a big *must*...just a plain
old "bubbler" airstone or powerhead aimed up top is plenty. Only other tip I can
give you is that dips will sometimes freak the fish out and panic ensues, 911
and Homeland Security are called, possibly whoever it is they send to fight off
Godzilla. Using a dark-sided container (or just the usual trusty empty salt mix
bucket we all have a heap of with a dark towel wrapped around it) will calm
things down a bit but sometimes they will try to jump right out so be ready just
in case. If you see too much distress, end the process. EZ PZ!>
Thank you so much for your time.
Re: Dip 6/24/16
Thanks again for the quick response and for the tip on using a dark bucket
because I over thought the process and specifically purchased clear containers
to do the dip in so that I could watch for stress but using the dark color
certainly makes sense and you are right I have many empty salt buckets.
Thanks again for your help and thanks for all the great advise that you guys
offer on your site, wet wet web is my go to for information and at times
entertainment as many if the responses you guys give make me LOL��
< NP, glad to know it's helpful. Having clear containers handy will surely be
useful as well (the dark sided containers just have a calming effect and feel
"safer", same idea as having cover/shelter in general). Definitely keep close
watch but it's a routine process, really. >
Freshwater Dip without Formalin 4/28/15
Hi,
<Lewis>
First, a thanks for all the wealth of knowledge you and your team have provided!
I have also read the "Contentious Marine Aquarist" book which was very valuable.
<Oh!>
I know that formalin (formaldehyde) and Methylene blue are recommended for FW
dips, and that malachite green is not. However, here in Canada I cannot
get my hands on any formalin. I can, however, get pure Methylene blue.
<Ok>
There is one product that contains formalin, Rid-Ich+, but it is mixed with
malachite green. It claims it "utilizes the less common but also less toxic
chloride salt of malachite green", but I'm not sure if that will really make it
less harmful. Perhaps its best not to trust it at all?
<The bit of formalin that would come w/ a reasonable amount/concentration of the
oxalate-free Malachite... not worth it>
The other product with formalin is a little 2 sided sachet from Blue Life called
"Safety Stop". It produces 30 ~ 60 min baths.
<Oh yeah... and that Ariel is a babe; schwing!>
One side is Methylene blue, and the other is formalin. The ingredients say only
those two things, but the formalin side has a green colour, so perhaps
has malachite green?
<Mmm; nah; think this is Acriflavine>
I'm not sure on that, but perhaps it was just colouring to make the dip clearly
visible.
<That too>
Question: how would you proceed to do FW dips? Is Methylene blue plus fresh
water sufficient to remove parasites like Brooklynella?
<Usually; yes. The formalin let's say adds another 40-50 percent of surety>
Or should I try the sachet of formalin. It looks like its only a few ml, so
would that even be strong enough for a 10 min FW dip, when its meant for 30 ~ 60
min.s of exposure?
<Okay! And do add aeration if using>
I'm asking, because I want to do the transfer-tank-method (TTM) to remove what I
suspected was Brooklynella. My two clownfish died, and I have a coral beauty and
a blue-green Chromis left that seem totally fine. The plan was to leave the
display tank fallow for 2 months, and do this TTM on these two remaining fish
before they enter the quarantine tank.
<Sounds good>
Thanks for your help,
~Lewis
P.S. Sorry for the huge wall of text above.
<Summat like the "wall of sound?" Nice. Bob Fenner>
Re: Freshwater Dip without Formalin 4/28/15
Thanks for the quick response. Cheers!
<Welcome! BobF>
Freshwater Dipping Procedures 10/7/14
Dearest Bob & Crew,
<Hey Joe; I say where you goin' w/ that net in your hands?>
Thank you so much for providing such an excellent service to the hobby!
<Welcome>
I have been battling marine ich for quite some time. It turns out that
the quarantine tank was still infested despite going fallow for 5 weeks
and leaving the specific gravity at 1.012.
<Ah yes; as you'll find, I'm not a fan of hypo...>
I have thus torn it down and cleaned with
bleach. It's back up and running.
In the meantime, I have stuck with freshwater dipping all in-coming fish
with formalin. Some have been tolerating it more then others.
<Yes. MUST be done with you present; aeration... removing sensitive
fishes (e.g. small wrasses, Anthiines...) after just a few seconds
immersion>
For example, a skunk clown pair tolerated 4 minutes (maybe even longer)
while a Red-headed Salon Wrasse went limp as soon it entered the bath
(normal for this species?).
<Yes>
I used common sense and skipped the bath.
I just wanted to see if you would/would not recommend dipping the
following species with or without formalin.
Engineer Goby
Starry Blenny
Court Jester Goby
Red Barred Goby
Mandarin Goby
Royal Gramma
Midas Blenny
Yellow Tang
Blue/Green Chromis
<Gobies and Blennioids just a (second) dip; the rest several seconds>
And finally, is freshwater/formalin dipping a general treatment for all
marine fish or are there certain species that it should not be performed
on?
<Just a matter of less/more duration in a stock solution>
It would be ironic if the fish that we are trying to help are actually
being damaged!
<All a matter of degree and trade-offs really.
I like to make a comparison w/ the historical (still present in some
countries) use of mercuricals and arsenicals to "treat" human
afflictions... These poisoned the patient at
the same time as (hopefully) curing them...>
Thanks so much!
Joe
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Freshwater Dipping Procedures 10/7/14
Bob,
<Joseph>
Always a pleasure chatting with you. You have an incisive viewpoint
which always gets my gears turning. This must be what it takes to be a
nationally recognized author. Kudos!
<I thank you>
Will do so in the future. Through WWM, however, I had read on several
occasions, crew saying that dips are only useful after at least two
minutes of submersion.
<Mmm; not so in my experience... and don't recall if I've ever seen some
sort of "real science" done re... but can/will attest that even very
short term dips have resulted in obvious mass shedding of Protozoans,
flukes and other worms...>
Are there benefits to the brief second or two dips?
<IME/O, yes>
I'm especially referring to delicate species. It seems like the few
seconds of immersion in formalin/freshwater coupled with the possible
errors a hobbyist could make (temp. and pH fluctuations in the dip,
overdosing of formalin etc.) could be more harmful then good. Just
playing devil's advocate.
<I understand, appreciate the notion>
Thanks so much!!
Joe
<Again, welcome. BobF>
More loss; personal to commercial Marine fish dip/bath
odyssey of discovery 2/12/14
I lost one of the two blue remaining tangs overnight. They
were both active and eating last night in a proper temp, proper SG
quarantine tank. I tested Ammonia at .025ppm and nitrite at zero
last night, but I didn't have the resources to so a 20% water change, so
I added 2 caps of Amquel and went to bed. This morning the
medium blue tang was dead Starting with 2 small blue, 1
medium blue, 1 yellow, 2 Flame Angels and a Goby, I have just one small
blue tang left and I can't tell if I'm more angry than sad. And
worse, I have no reason to believe I'm not on a death watch for him as
well - I certainly can't put him in the main tank.
My first attempt was much better. I had the group in a 35
gallon hex tank and the blue tangs got massive Crypt, so I immediately
went to hypo salinity. I lost the sickest of the small blue tangs,
but every other fish survived and thrived and 4 weeks later I gradually
brought the SG back to normal - and two days before I was going to
transport them to my son (for his Christmas present) the Tetra heater
thermostat stuck and cooked the whole tank. Lost all of them.
<Argh>
This second batch was an exercise in personal pain as I lost each fish
individually with no obvious reason. I tell you if I could pay for
an autopsy on the tang and get the results today, I'd do it.
{sigh}
Anyway the 37% Formalin arrived and completely coincidently the fish
store's first direct shipment of 16 purple tangs<Wowzah!> will
arrive sometime today so I'm going to go down to help/advise them but
honestly my heart just won't be in it. Yesterday, in
preparation, they were on the net doing research and - as I always fear
- came up with other, equally plausible dip/treatment options and are
asking questions that I can't answer. So of course, I turn
to you -as if you have nothing better to do.
By The By... in talking to people and hearing their questions... have
you ever had the urge to blurt out "here-just give them to me and let me
kill them for you right here and now rather than draw it out over 6
weeks!"?
<All the ding dang time>
ahem
1) The dose seems to be 3.75ml of Formalin (37% formaldehyde) to 5
gallons of temp & pH adjusted, aerated water regardless of below
<Ok>
A) FRESH water dip is 1 minute ... maybe 1Min 15sec but remove the fish
at first sign of stress... but no longer.
<Right>
B) SALT water dip is 30 minutes, maybe 60 if they seem to tolerate it.
<If you'd like/prefer>
My advice to them as that the Fresh water dip adds the osmotic imbalance
to help destroy the parasite cysts, whereas a salt water dip would only
attack free swimming bugs or, at least, non encapsulated ones.
Might help with gill flukes, etc. From what you've taught me, a
marine/formalin dip is a lot like washing ones hands where a fresh water
dip is like sticking them in acetone. If you have real bugs,
use the real treatment.
<Yes; assuredly>
Mark then asked about long term weaker formalin in the quarantine tank<I
wouldn't do this. Too toxic for long-term exposure, and no "residual"
benefit>
as his previous employer did. My weeks of experience in tropical
fish keeping tell me that exposing your fish to a poison for a long
term, even at a lower dose, is going to debilitate the fish and the only
time I'd do that is when/if a specific course of treatment for a
specific malady required it.
So anyway that's today's questions. When I get the answers
I'll trot off to help kill OTHER people's fish today
D
<Again; I have "done" the SOP posted on WWM, elsewhere for hundreds of
thousands of marine fishes, instigated, instituted the practice with
others, facilities at dozens of locations around the world. I DO have
high confidence in it being worthwhile. B>
Tang in QT, dips/baths gen. methodology – 12/02/12
Hi Crew!
I have a question on dipping vs. quarantine of yellow tangs. I
picked one up 3 days ago and he is in the QT right now. I've been
reading over FAQs and some say to freshwater dip them and put into the
main tank.
Others say freshwater dip and into a QT. A few years ago I
attempted a dip and it freaked me out. Guess I was doing it wrong.
My question is would it do any good to attempt a freshwater dip
at this time and put him back into the QT (with all new water of
course)?
<Mmm, no; best to do such preventative dips/baths twixt moves... to QT,
to DT>
Or should I just leave him in the QT for the next month which was my
original plan.
<Fine; maybe apply the procedure when moving this fish to your
main/display tank>
He is eating very well, shows no signs of illness and is a curious little
thing. I've already done a water change siphoning the bottom.
Thank you!
Jennifer
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Tang in QT – 12/03/12
Thank you, Mr. Fenner! Jennifer
<Certainly welcome Jennifer. B>
Fresh Water Dips, O-ring lubing, more to search
11/10/12
Howdy, I am getting my 90 gallon reef ready aquarium with 30 gallon sump
really close to getting set up. My 75 pounds of live rock is finally
cured.
I looked around and read quite a bit of info about the dips, but I want
to verify some things. The LFS said I shouldn't use r/o or r/o / di
water stating it will burn them because of the ph. Is that true?
<Can be; yes. Best to use freshwater (as in from the tap) that's
dechloraminated (or just set out for a week or so)...>
I'm assuming the salt that you add to the ro/di water changes the ph to
a safe level then which is why it's still preferred as a water source??
<Mmm, well, yes... RO/DI is initially in the "sixes" pH wise, coming up
to neutral w/ time and/or aeration... I encourage folks w/ "lower pH"
freshwater to use simple "baking soda" (sodium bicarbonate) to raise the
pH to about 7.8... very safe>
I am looking to get a powder blue tang and a blue tang for my first 2
fish so treating them would be easier, but I would like to avoid getting
anything bad in the water since I will hopefully be having corals and
other stuff in there eventually. If I fresh water dip them once before
placing them in the main tank, it would greatly help out my tank, right?
<In the vast majority of cases, circumstances, yes>
I don't have a quarantine tank I can use. Would a 10 gallon plastic tub
be really really bad to use for a tang or 2 for a 2 week quarantine
<Mmm, I wouldn't do this... even w/ a heater, sponge et. al. filter...
More stressful than a simple dip/bath and placement to the main/display>
or a future copper bath?
<... see WWM re Acanthuroids and Cu... am NOT a fan>
I know they usually need over 100 gallons or so to be happy. What are
your recommendations on what I should do with them?
<Archived on WWM>
With the fresh water dip, I just watch them and take them out as soon as
they look like they are getting really wild swimming around or start
turning on their side, right?
<Mmm, no; "going on their side" is very typical of almost all
dipped/bathed marine fishes... "excessive respiratory/gill movements"
might foreshorten the process for me>
A few other questions... I'm wondering if there is anything that would
make the rubber gasket on the bulkhead last longer. I have heard just
silicone, but is there anything better?
<Silicon "grease"... aka photographic quality... not Silicone as in the
sealant>
Petroleum jelly will make the rubber rot away or last longer?
<Dissolve, expand... ruin them>
Do you want a thick dose of silicone on both sides of the rubber gasket
and some around the sides to keep the water off it?
<No; just a smooth, thin smear all the way around, placed in a clean,
dry setting>
My tank is no where near a water tap, but I would like to keep a 3-5
gallon container next to the sump and use that as a top off system. Do
you have a recommendation for a top off system that is reliable and any
features you think I would maybe need or want for under $150.
<... see WWM re ATOs>
Sorry for so many questions. Just some last minute things I am worried
about before getting the tank set up this weekend. Thank you guys so
much for your help and for your time.
Braiden
<You have good questions, and a perceptive mind... Please learn to/use
the search tool, indices on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Major Concern with Carpenter Wrasse- Please Help,
Dip/Bath... duration - 10/22/2012
I have some major concerns about my first freshwater dip/bath experience
this weekend. I was moving my yellow watchman goby, yellow headed goby,
and the Flasher Carpenter Wrasse to my main tank of 2 orange clowns and
2 black clowns. I first did the 2 gobies. The freshwater bath went
great. They did fine and were transferred to the main tank and seem to
be doing well in their new home. The next day I did the freshwater bath
for the carpenter flasher wrasse. Once he was placed in the freshwater
he looked dead laying on the bottom of the container.
<Not uncommon>
He hardly moved. I nudged him and he would swim a little then go back to
looking dead. I waited to see if there was going to be signs of stress.
He then began to swim around some and acting normal. Then after
about 12 minutes
<Mmm, this is too long... a few minutes does about as much good as can
be done w/ such baths>
he started going crazy, so I got him scooped up and placed in the
container of tank water. When I placed him into his new home and went
stiff and lifeless and floated to the bottom. I waited for him to come
to, but he turned on his side a little and then coughed up what looked
like a white, milky substance. When I saw that I got him out of the main
tank and put him in the saltwater container. He never revived. All
things were perfect for the bath. The pH matched, the temperature was
just slightly warmer than the tank, freshwater had been prepped and
dechlorinated.
<And aerated I take it>
My concern is what would this white milky substance be,
<Don't know... tis strange>
because I have not located it on any symptoms chart. There are zero
abnormalities externally on the fish. He looks, or looked, great. I have
concern I have now spread something to my main tank. If so, what should
I do to prevent something from happening to my 2 pairs of clowns and the
two gobies?
<Shorter duration immersion/baths>
And what should I do with the remaining fish in the QT tank, now that
one of them has died this way?
<... see above>
I'm so sick to my stomach to think I have possibly spread something to the
others. He was only in the main tank for a short moment, but he did
cough something, whatever it is, up.
<Not likely problematical to other livestock>
I'm at a loss as to what course of action to take, if any, since I'm not
sure what it was. You've been so helpful, so I hope you have some
recommendation. Thanks as always.
Brent Wells
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Major Concern with Carpenter Wrasse- Please Help
- 10/22/2012
Hello Bob,
<Brent>
Quick follow up about the carpenter wrasse. You say only a few minutes
for the bath but the website says 15 minutes to 30 minutes
<On WWM? Where?>
and that you watch for stress, thrashing. What am I missing? Do
different fish require different bath links?
<Links? Do you mean lengths, as in time? Yes... some fish groups are far
more sensitive than others. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
and the linked files above>
Where would I find this out? Your recommendation of what I should do with
the main tank and the others in the quarantine tank was <see above> but
I don't see anything listed above. Can you explain?
<What I had written immediately above...>
Thanks so much
Brent
<BobF>
Acclimation and Dips, adjusting for Spg
9/5/12
Dear WWM Crew:
<Tom>
I was just seeking some clarification on acclimation and dipping during
the process. Bob has mentioned in past posts that some very
sensitive fish such as leopard wrasse should just be given a PH adjusted
fresh water or fresh water/formalin dip.
<Yes>
With fish being shipped from places such as Live Aquaria, Divers Den and
Blue Zoo Aquatics, each company keeps their SG at a slightly different
value. Since my display tanks are kept at 1.026, the fish are usually
received in water with a SG of between 1.019 - 1.022, depending on where
they are being shipped from
<This is so; cheaper to maintain (less synthetic salt mix), higher
dissolved oxygen, lowered external pathogen load>
If you are going to dip and direct place, are you suggesting that the
fish get drip acclimated from their shipping bag water SG slowly to meet
what is maintained in my display tank and then give the PH adjusted
freshwater dip and final placement?
<Yes; this would be better than no adjustment>
or are you suggesting a direct PH/temp adjusted freshwater dip right from
the shipping bag then placement into 1.026 display tank. I would
think that the latter of the two being such an extreme jump in salinity
would be much more stressful on the fish and since I am purchasing a
potters and a jeweled leopard as well as a male/female Rhomboid pair, I
want to make sure I keep the stress level down as much as possible and
perform the acclimation and dip properly.
Tom
<I do concur, agree w/ your stance. Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimation and Dips 9/5/12
Bob,
<Tom>
As always, thank you for the quick reply. I thought the first
option was most likely what you were conveying but just wanted to be
absolutely sure with 600 coins in fish
Tom
<Thank you for seeking this clarification Tom. BobF>
iodide dip/bath, for Scleractinians
7/11/12
Hello Bob,
I ran out of Seachem Iodine and LFS has no more so I picked up a bottle
of Brightwell Aquatics Lugol's solution, upon reading I see that
the concentration is 3750mg/oz 126,803 ppm (!!) and each drop will
increase iodine by 1,7ppm / gallon. If I want to make a
dip/bath for helping coral to recover (stopping RTN and STN) How many
drops should I add to how much water? I don't want to overdose as it's a
very high concentration.
thanks in advance :D
<Mmm, yes; and though I'm not a giant fan of this format of iodine and
potassium iodide... as a supplement, it can/will work for this
disinfectant purpose. IF this were a commercial setting, I'd not worry
re much at all re actual dosing (in practice I/we really just "squirt it
in the transit volume/acclimation container", likely w/ a bucket of
freshwater (to lower spg, increase uptake), and a scoop of a simple
(hexose) sugar, like glucose... For home hobbyists, I might do something
similar, but a short time exposure to some elevated level of Lugol's
won't be harmful... I'd up the dosage to 3-5 drops per gallon for a
several minute bath. Bob Fenner>
Acclimation Question... actually dips and
baths 2/19/12
Bob:
Hope all is well. Had a quick question regarding acclimation of
Marine angels (specifically Majestic, and Emperor). If I am
understanding your articles correctly you are an advocate of a PH/temp
adjusted freshwater dip <bath>
with Methylene blue? If so how long?
<Five-ten minutes... with you present, possibly adding
aeration>
I might be getting confused. Are you an advocate of a PH/ temp
adjusted formalin dip for a few minutes, or the first one stated?
<These dips are of shorter duration... a minute perhaps... with
aeration for sure>
What is the longest you can freshwater dip a new arriving fish
before it becomes counterproductive?
<Quite a long time, depending on the health of the fish/es>
If the freshwater dip did not show any parasites falling off
would observe in the QT (no meds), or would you prophylactically use
some medications before going into the display tank?
<If nothing else (no bath, dip otherwise), this is a good choice...
w/ or w/o formalin>
Thanks in advance.
Sincerely,
Nick
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Freshwater Dip
11/1/11
I am receiving a shipment of marine fish. After
acclimation I plan to give them a dip/bath in Freshwater &
Methylene Blue. They will then be transferred into a quarantine tank
with copper for 4 weeks of observation. For the dip/bath I am unsure
how long it should be. The last time I did this my fish were calm and
seemingly unaffected by the dip. (though I saw parasites leaving the
gills of 2 tangs). I took them out after 30 minutes,
but they seemed like they would have stayed longer. Is there a
maximum
time for a freshwater dip where there is no benefit to continue?
<Mmm, yes, likely about all the good that can be gained from such
exposure is about done from five to ten minutes in freshwater. Bob
Fenner>
Thank you,
Dave
Re: Crypto
issue 6/30/11
Hey Bob, maybe you can briefly explain to me what I did wrong.
First off before the CP arrived my Flagfin angel was found under a rock
dead... So, I started crushing up the CP with Mortar and Pestle. I then
took most of the rock out of the DT to make catching the fish a little
less stressful on them and myself :)
I then dipped them one by one in RO, and MB. 10 minutes total for each
fish.
<With aeration I hope/trust... RO has no dissolved gas
content>
The QT has only been running for about a week, I added Bio Spira to get
some bio going as I didn't want to use the infested DT water or any
if the bioballs for that matter. I have a bunch of black PVC fittings
for hiding and resting in the QT. Bur otherwise bare. When I added the
fish, my beloved Flagtail Blanquillo died within the next hour. The
Midas blenny then followed leaving me with a Heniochus, Saddleback, and
Coral Beauty who BTW seems invincible! Was it the lack of bio that
killed them?
<Mmm, don't know, can't tell with any certainty from the
data presented>
All other parameters read 0. ph was 8.3 temp was 79... So that really
made me think of how I could have avoided these deaths.
My next problem is my Dogface Puffer named "Scooby" who we
just adore. He is still in the DT. Knowing that they need an
established system to thrive I didn't want to risk putting him in
QT just yet. Since all the other fish are out it's like he came
back to life. Eating, swimming around in his normal fashion... I'm
thinking of having my LFS hold him until I can get the bio up in the
QT. Otherwise, I don't think he will survive the process.
I'm almost there! I would just like your expert opinion on what I
may have missed during this process.
Hope all is well,
-Jay
<Ah yes; on my end tis. B>
Double-checking on FW dip
procedure: Dips\Baths 7/13/2010
Hi Crew, hope you're done well. :)
<Hi Chris, fine thanks.>
I'm preparing to buy a goby tomorrow. After catching and treating
ich (successfully, thanks to you guys) in my quarantine tank with my
last new batch of fish, I want to do a freshwater dip this time to
avoid that long, drawn-out process.
<Good.>
I've read a lot on your site, and my mind is still processing all
the information. I just want to confirm that this is the proper
procedure - this might be helpful for other people who are trying to
figure out the step-by-step process, also.
<Sure.>
1) Use R/O water. Add methylene blue and aerate the water for a few
hours prior to the beginning of the dip.
<Methylene Blue or Formalin Either will work, but Formalin is a bit
more effective in my opinion.>
2) Adjust the temperature to match the quarantine tank.
3) Adjust the pH with baking soda to match the tank's pH.
4) Drip acclimate the fish in his LFS bag to the QT water, like
usual.
5) After the SW acclimation process is complete, put the fish into the
freshwater dip for 2-10 minutes, or until he starts to show stress.
<2 - 20 minutes - the longer the better, provided the fish does not
show stress. My Coral Beauty happily swam in his FW dip tank for 45
minutes>
6) After that, put him right into the QT.
<Yes.>
Is all that correct and in the right order? I think I know what I'm
doing, but I just want to make sure I do more good than harm!
<That all sounds fine.>
Thanks a bunch! You guys literally saved my fishes' lives last time
I talked to you, and I'm very grateful.
<Glad you find all the information helpful.>
Chris
<MikeV>
PS: Since this will be some species of sand-shifting goby (don't
know for sure yet), I also want to put some gravel in with him. Is that
advisable?
Should I use sand coated with algae from my DT, or can I just use
fresh, washed gravel?
<Adding sand does help calm the fish down, just realize that should
you get a case of ich, you need to remove the sand for
treatment..>
Re: Double-checking on FW dip
procedure 7/18/2010
Hi there,
<Hi Chris, my apologies, I was sent out of town short notice
again.>
Thanks for your swift response and good advice. Today I went out and
got a Brownbarred Goby - lovely fish! Unfortunately, I was an idiot and
dyed the fresh water before I tested for pH - it wasn't until later
that it occurred
to me that blue water would not produce an accurate pH color test
result.
:)
<Heheheh.>
I didn't have any more water aerated, and I had the fish sitting
there, ready to be dipped, and there was no way I was going to just add
baking soda blindly, so I had to skip the step. Although I have a
digital pH electrode on my main tank, I didn't want to contaminate
it with the quarantine tank water.
<Understandably.>
So, my question is, is there any point in FW dipping him after he's
been introduced? He is already in the quarantine tank and the water is
already "contaminated". Should I dip him tomorrow, or would
that just be unneeded stress since the QT water is already exposed to
him?
<I would just leave him be for now.>
After the 4 week quarantine, if there's no sign of parasites or
disease, I'm thinking of FW dipping him prior to placing him into
the DT. Any point to that, either?
<A FW dip before introduction to the main tank couldn't hurt
either. I always FW dip before and after QT>
Thanks!
Chris
<MikeV>
Methyl Blue Dip With Achilles
Tang/Dips/Baths 4/15/10
Hey guys,
<Jeromy>
I am getting a 4" Achilles Tang tomorrow direct from Hawaii and I
have a QT tank all set up for it.
<Great!>
I also have a Methyl Blue R/O dip waiting. How long should I dip him
for.
<Five minutes is fine.>
The water is a dark blue color.
<Good.>
I know you say at least 5 minutes, but I also know that the Achilles is
very sensitive. Do you still recommend at least 5 min?
<Sensitive to copper and such. Methylene Blue is relatively
non-toxic, safe to use, contains no antagonistic properties.>
Also, how many times should I dip him once in the QT?
<?>
One more, Should I dip him before going into my 180g reef tank?
<Mmm, isn't this query what you were alluding to? Yes, one dip,
five minutes, then to QT.>
Thanks Guys,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jeromy
Re Methyl Blue Dip With Achilles
Tang/Dips/Baths 4/16/10
No, should I dip him when I place him in my reef tank to my display
tank?
<?? Is the fish going to the reef tank first, then to a display
tank?
Original thread states going into the 180 reef.>
I have already dipped him before putting him in my QT tank. Should I
dip him again before placing him in my 180g display?
<If the fish looks good coming out of QT, it isn't necessary,
will just put additional stress on the fish before going into new
surroundings.>
Thanks again,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Jeromy
Re Methyl Blue Dip With Achilles Tang/Dips/Baths 4/15/10 -
4/17/10
Thanks, sorry about the confusion. Have a great weekend.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Methylene Blue and Fresh Water
Baths -- 01/30/10
Hi there,
<Sab>
I wanted to do a dip/bath for an incoming fish and had a question. I
read here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm but found I still
was a bit confused about the process.
<Let's try to make it less so>
When it says to use Methylene Blue and fresh water for dips is the
fresh water supposed to be matched in Ph as well as temp and other
parameters or is it just the temp?
<Better to try matching pH if possible/practical... Simple Sodium
Bicarbonate (baking soda), will get you close enough here>
Also I found this product http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/products2.html
but it says that its not for use on scale-less fish. I have an Arothron
Puffer coming in and wanted to use this method before I put him/her in
the QT. My question is, are they saying not to use it for scale-less
fish to cover themselves or is there some other reason (change in the
chemical maybe) that makes it not safe for scale-less fish?
<A bit of both. Whatever dip media is employed, best to "stand
watch", be ready to move the fish/es>
Thank you for your assistances with all of my fish questions. Your time
and help is greatly appreciated.
Sabrina
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection...
Hyposalinity, WWM, the nature of our "truth"...
7/6/08 Well, I had read on hyposalinity and use of it for
curing ich, <... won't work> I haven't asked any
questions as of yet that I haven't at least researched
quickly first before asking. <Ah, much appreciated for sure...
and do know that many folks (including some here at WWM) do
advocate hyposalinity as a preventative, cure...> You have no
idea how many questions I've wanted to ask <Heeee! Turn
about is fair play Grant... I too have MANY questions!> and
instead researched for hours to find the answer. To be honest,
WWM is kind of contradictory in what it says about quite a few
things. <Yes... and "rightly so"... that is to
state, there are many areas in our hobby interest here for which
there is no one certain "answer", indeed, a good deal
of controversy... and as the common progenitor here, my
theory/responsibility/decision to encourage all to state their
input... WITH as much description, practical background as they
deem necessary, have to proffer. Does this seem reasonable to
you?> I understand why, it is hard to have a crew of people
responding to thousands of questions and have all their answers
always be the same. <Ah yes... this and the fact again, that a
good deal of what "passes" for fact in peoples lives is
so much actual commentary and worse advice... w/o factual
presentation first. So outrageous is this view, lack of honesty
that the even the press, the garbage which is media
"news", the very pres. of the U.S. seems almost totally
sans data in his... expectorations.> After all, most of the
questions are answered with opinions, <Ahh! Excellent!> and
everyone has different ones of those. I researched hyposalinity,
quarantine and ich treatment and a lot of the FAQs and articles
state that hyposalinity is a good treatment for ich. Some of them
say like your reply email that it could just kill the fish. Some
say use quinine. Some say use Formalin green, other's say
that it is a poison and can kill the fish and hurt the aquarist.
It's hard to get a straight answer which is why I was asking
you specifically in an email :) But anyway, I'll quit asking
questions of you and just jump on in I guess. <Thank you for
the above input. Very worthwhile... a great relief to me to
find/meet up with critical thinking> Basic plans are just to
quarantine for at least 4 weeks, maybe 6 weeks depending on the
fish, certainly 4 weeks of no sickness before allowing them into
the main tank. <Great! Do please read the "dailies"
today on WWM for a sad acct. of someone with a 600 gallon
system...> Freshwater dip going into quarantine with meth blue
in the FW dip mix. <Please do read re, and consider adding
formalin... and aeration...> Basic quarantine tank with just
an airstone and some ammonia removing rocks so I don't even
have to worry about maintaining a cycled aquarium there, I'll
just change out the ammonia removing substance every week and be
doing maybe 1g water change daily, which is about 4% of my total
quarantine tank volume. All in all, no medications and no special
salinity while in quarantine. I'll know that the fish are
most likely carrying ich and just not suffering, rather than
being proactive and treating it regardless of whether they show
it or not. To be honest this doesn't sit well with me as
I'd rather have them go into a completely ich free tank and
stay ich free, but from what I've read that is almost an
impossibility. <Not so... and worth shooting for> Anyway,
thanks for all the helpful answers and what not, I'll try not
to write in again. <Oh... no... please do... We enjoy sharing
with folks who have earnest questions, are seeking to share>
I've enjoyed Reef Invertebrates so far, I'm about 150
pages in. I do wish it was formatted a little differently though,
it is a lot more "floppy" than CMA (larger pages and
not as thick) and it makes it harder to read in the tub while
I'm laying down. Oh well, small problem :) Grant <And
thank you this input as well. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection... Hypo.,
dipping... 07/07/08 Well thanks for the encouraging
response. My 2nd to last email to you was responded to with
basically three different versions of "read WWM" to my
three questions, so I figured I should probably stop asking
questions ;) <I see> One last set of questions for you...
sorry if this is already listed on WWM, but I just want to be
really clear on what procedure should be in your opinion. I had
planned on just doing a FW dip for 5 minutes or so with Meth
Blue, with the intention of minimizing ich in the quarantine and
therefore the display tank, even though I see only lukewarm
response to a FW dip actually doing much to ich. However, you
suggested the use of formalin. I actually have a bottle of it
sitting around from about a year ago, it is the 37% stuff.
Reading through WWM states that 2.7 ML per gallon is a good
amount to use in a hour long saltwater bath before placing into
quarantine. <Yes> So here is the question (wow it takes me
a long time just to get to my questions!). <At least you
finally do!> I'll be receiving 2 Semilarvatus B/F and a
Aussie Harlequin tusk on Tuesday. Super sale on LiveAquaria.com
on the tusk so I went ahead and made the plunge. If I use a hour
or so length formalin saltwater bath, <! This is way too
long... better to be present for sure, use aeration, and limit
this to 3-5 minutes maximum> can I do away with the freshwater
dip I had planned? <Mmm... am a bit lost here... I would/do
add the formalin to the pH-adjusted freshwater...> Or do I
need to do a short FW dip and then the saltwater bath with
formalin? Really, I have researched WWM and I get the feeling
that the formalin treatment makes the FW dip unnecessary, but I
didn't find that anywhere exactly stated, and I really
don't want to screw this up. I've never quarantined fish
before, but I've mainly had reef tanks and only a fish or
two, so I wasn't really concerned. Moving into a large FOWLR
setup, I'm not only investing a lot of money, but some pretty
cool fishy lives and I don't want to screw it up. <I
understand... Perhaps another quick read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm> Also, my stocking plan
includes 2 Sufflamen albicaudatus, male/female pair, one Raccoon
B/F, one Purple tang and one Emperor angel, all Red Sea
varieties. Are any of those fish more easy poisoned by the
formalin dips? <Mmm, the Angel and BF...> I remember
reading that triggers seem to be more susceptible to it, however
after searching around I couldn't find the info so I'm
not sure if I read that on WWM or on another helpful site. And if
they are susceptible, do I just do a lesser dose or skip the
formalin all together? <... again, and I understand this is
hard to understand... compared w/ someone who has done it a bunch
just being there to help... I would call around, see if a LFS,
service co. locally has someone who can come by...> I really
do appreciate the answers and help, I'm sure my fish
appreciate it even more. I feel like I should join the WWM crew
and give back to the community, heh. Grant <I look forward to
your joining us. Bob Fenner>
Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection 07/07/08 Maybe
I'm starting to understand the concept, it only takes 10
emails and a weeks worth of reading to get an idea into my head
correctly. <Less than I...> I guess I mistook what you
suggested in your last email. We were talking about FW dips and
you suggested formalin, so I read up on the formalin FAQs on WWM.
It says right there that you should do a 1 hour SW formalin bath
to treat ich. "For dips/baths 125-250 ppm per gallon may be
used for up to an hour of immersion." <Mmm, perhaps the
words "up to" should be modified...> I was assuming
then that I should skip the FW dip and just do a 1 hour SW bath
with formalin, then put into quarantine. I read the
http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm page for like the 20th time
this week and I think I see where my confusion was. You were
simply suggesting adding formalin to the dip, whereas I was
thinking I needed to do a long SW bath. Anyway, my mistake.
<No worries> So a 5-10 minute max formalin FW dip is more
beneficial than you think a 1 hour SW formalin bath would be?
<Yes... and far less work> I'd almost be inclined to
think the SW would be less hard on the fish than a FW dip, but
I'm not experienced in this aspect :) I guess maybe the 1
hour SW bath is a treatment for an already existing case of ich,
whereas the FW dip is just a preventative measure but not really
a cure? <More so, yes> And as far as being present during
the dip/bath, believe me, I will be. I'm more anxious about
this than I would think possible. I do have 2 airstones that run
off one pump (I'll be using 2 different 5 gallons buckets for
the dip) and I'm going to heat the water to 78 degrees or so
before the fish are introduced. I'm going to pull the heater
right before putting the fish in just so that they have more room
in the bucket, but for the 5 or so minutes they are in the dip,
the water shouldn't even cool half a degree. <Good
protocol> Believe me, I've asked the LFS a couple times
now if they would have someone who could help me with trying my
first quarantine, I even suggested I'd bring in the fish in
the shipping boxes to them, with my own buckets and everything
and do it there with their help/supervision and bring them home
in some "normal" SW identical to my quarantine tanks.
Basically, if I don't buy the fish from them, they don't
want to help. And the fish prices here are ridiculous... so while
I don't want to kill my fish or have a hard time of doing
this, I'm not willing to pay the 2-3 times higher prices
offered up here. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, in my
opinion. <Understood...> Anyway, my whole thought behind
this process is that I'm going to have my 180g being run
fallow for 2 months at the least before introducing fish.
Hopefully there will be no ich present in the system after that
length of time. I really really REALLY want to avoid ever
introducing it into the system, so treating for ich before even
going into quarantine, even if the fish don't show signs of
it (as we all know most times you cant see the small amount of
ich present on most fish) really appeals to me. I'd love to
never introduce a single ich parasite into my main system. Am I
dreaming? I'm starting to feel like so, after all the reading
I've done, most of the pages say that there will always be a
small amount of ich present in the system. <Ahh, don't I
(and you, no doubt) wish the vaccines available for
limiting/preventing Cryptocaryon (and more) that are readily
available and used in Europe were here... too hard thus far to
get through the U.S. F.D.A.> Thanks again Bob. For some reason
I'm nervous, heh... like really nervous. I just don't
want to mess this up, I'm investing a lot of time and money
into the venture and I want it to go good, plus I want these
super cool fish to be healthy and live a long happy life. I know
how happy I'd be if my parents brought me into the world and
said "guess what, we've treated you and your area for
the common cold, you'll NEVER be exposed to it in your entire
life." I'm trying to give that to the fishes in my care,
although whereas the common cold doesn't kill humans for the
most part, ich sure does seem to claim a lot of fish. <Well
put... Again, thank you for sharing Grant. BobF>
Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection...
dips/baths 7/7/08 This might be something you
want to reference on your web page somewhere or just store away
in your mind for future use, but I was in contact with All-Glass
or Aqueon or whatever they are now calling themselves, a dry 180g
aquarium weights 282 lbs and a dry 210g aquarium weighs 343
pounds. This is without glass covers or a stand or overflows,
just a plain Jane empty fish tank. Anyway, you've helped me
so much I figured I needed to give something back, I realize that
was a small thing but interesting to know and it might help some
hobbyist some day. <Thank you> Anyway the fish come in
tomorrow, I've already got my freshwater dip buckets (two 5g
buckets) set up, one for the two Semilarvatus and one for the
Harlequin tusk. I set the pH last night at 8.2 and I've got
pumps in there keeping the water aerated, so everything should be
good to go when the fish arrive. I haven't put the formalin
in yet, I'll wait to do that until I'm ready to dip the
fish. I'm still nervous but actually much less so after your
last reply email. I think I finally feel like I'm going to
get this right! And that is a good feeling :) <You are
prepared!> Two questions for you, both have answers that are
probably very obvious to an experienced aquarist/genius/superhero
<Dang cape is caught on my chair...> like yourself, but
I'm not sure on them and I did read the website, I don't
see where this is specifically addressed. One, should I acclimate
both Semilarvatus B/F together in the same bucket? <Can be
done if there's room... otherwise, one at a time> I'm
99% sure they wont be shipped together, <I'm 100> so I
assume I shouldn't need to acclimate together. My concern
comes from reusing the same bucket. For instance, I'll put
one fish into the bucket, let it sit for 5 minutes OR until it
freaks out, whichever comes first. At this point, should that
water be considered "contaminated" and not reusable for
the next butterfly? <Nope... though there are such concerns
for some (mainly freshwater) fish families> If so, I'll
need to mix up a third bucket of water because my 2nd bucket is
going to be used by my Harlequin. Or should I just put both B/F
into the same bucket at once? <See above> It is 4 gallons
of water and it will be well aerated and heated. Now since they
are going into the same quarantine tank together, I'm going
to assume any disease one has the other will get, my main concern
is if something toxic or for lack of a better word
"bad" happens to the water after the B/F has been in it
for 5 minutes, bad enough that I wont want to dip a 2nd fish in
the same water. <Not to worry> And second question is my
quarantine tank, it is a standard 29g aquarium... Can two
Semilarvatus B/F, around 3.5 to 4 inches in length get along for
a month or two in the same tank? <Yes> These aren't
purchased as a pair, so they will be two strangers most likely to
each other, and definitely in a smaller water volume than is
recommended but that is only going to be about a two month
period. After two months, my newly set up 180g should be finished
cycling and have gone through a good 2 month period of letting
the live rock really come to life, I want to give the rock as
much time as possible to become very alive, so if the B/F can
handle 2 months in the same tank with each other I'd prefer
to do that. <Just monitor metabolites...> The other option
is I could put one B/F and the Harlequin tusk in my one 29g and
then a single B/F in the other 29. Basically, I've got two
29g tanks and 3 fish, I'm wondering which combo will work
best over the course of about a 2 month period. <The two BFs
tog.> After that they are going into a 180g and they should be
happy as clams. Thanks Bob! Grant Gray <Welcome Grant.
B>
Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection... dips/baths --
07/08/08 Well the fish arrived and everything went well and
according to plan, thanks to your many emails and my weeks of
scouring WWM, what a great resource. <Ah, welcome> The
Semilarvatus are doing great, very active and lively. The tusk
isn't doing so hot though, he basically sits on the bottom on
his side, still breathing but not swimming my any means and not
upright, and every 30 minutes to an hour he swims around briefly
and then goes back to listless sideways laying. <Should be up
and about tomorrow AM> Kind of disheartening, I feel bad for
him, gorgeous fish but almost lifeless for 99% of the time he has
spent in the tank. I'm hoping he pulls through. I checked
ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels in the tank and everything in 0.
I'm going to do a 5g water change (on a 29g tank) in about
half an hour here, although I don't think there is anything
in the water that is bothering him. I have the ammonia absorbing
white stones and charcoal also in the filtration... Frustrating.
<Take all in stride> He is acting blind too, the few times
he has swam around he just swims into the PVC pipes I have in
there, like he cant see. <Leave the lights off on the tank>
I put my face to the side of the tank and watched him, and moved
my hand around in front of the tank, he didn't react at all
to my hand movement, slow or fast. I didn't want to stress
him so I didn't do that much but it was a quick test to see
if he would react to my presence. I definitely didn't treat
with copper (which I've heard can cause blindness) and he was
only in the FW dip about 2 minutes as after about 1:30 he sank to
the bottom and looked like he quit breathing, he definitely
wasn't moving and I didn't see any gill movement so after
30 seconds of that I pulled him out. Any ideas? Sounds like maybe
pH shock but I made sure the pH was good in the dip and in the
main tanks. pH in the shipping water was 7.4, pH in the FW dip
was 7.9 and the pH in the quarantine tank is 8.2. I hesitate to
blame pH problems as the B/F were both dipped in the same bucket
and did just fine in there, same pH in their shipping water too.
<Best to match the first two, slowly allow to rise...> Just
a side note, those Semilarvatus didn't get along at all, I
had to put a acrylic divider down the middle of the tank. The
slightly bigger B/F almost immediately began picking on the
smaller one, probably only a 1/4 inch difference in size between
them. I'm hoping by later tonight they will have gotten used
to seeing each other through the acrylic and be best buds. Grant
Gray <Best to keep separated here. B>
Re: Red Sea aquarium fish selection -- 07/09/08 Thanks
for the quick reply, Bob, you rock. <More like roll these
years... but thanks> Good, I'll just keep my chin up and
hopefully the tusk does too. <Ah, yes> For what it's
worth, I do have the lights off, I don't think that is what
is causing the "blindness" so to speak. <Mmm, no...
likely "just stress"... blindness in most fish
instances is due to vitamin deficiency mostly... second most
commonly due to over-bright lighting, no chances to get out of
the solar blast> What I did is unscrew all the bulbs from the
room lighting except one that points away from both the
quarantine tanks. <Good> This is off in a second bedroom
that no one uses so they have a extremely quiet, peaceful
location to settle in to. I leave the single room light on which
is only a 20w curly incandescent bulb, so it is by no means
bright, it hardly changes the brightness of the room but it does
shed a little light around, nothing directly at the aquariums
though. I figured on not using an actual tank light for a week or
two, no real reason to from what I can tell. <Really only to
examine the fishes closely> No one is in there staring at them
and I have no photosensitive creatures in there so I'm
thinking the fish will be less stressed without a blazing light
above their heads. I watched a lot of videos lately of the Red
Sea (I know the tusk isn't from there but the butterfly and
all the rest of my fish will be) and the water isn't exactly
clear in them, I can see how being 10 feet down or more and you
wouldn't be getting full sunlight by any means, so the fish
should actually appreciate this much more natural lighting than a
tank light would provide. <You show wisdom> And I figured
in the unpacking process the fish would be much happier to not go
from 24 hours in a dark box to bright light, so hence the dimly
lit room idea. Well, at least in my mind it's a good idea,
heh :) One thing I forgot to mention is one of the tusks eyes is
very clear and good looking. The eye is orange like it should be,
but the part that is clear and see through (the lens?)
<Yes> looks great, nothing at all wrong with it. The other
one kind of has a greenish tint to the lens, on the very outside
part of it. It isn't popping out or anything, but I wonder if
maybe he is just suffering a little eye problems from being stuck
in a bag or bumped up against a bag or who knows what else during
the shipping process. Grant <Happens... best to just relax, be
patient... B>
|
A Heartfelt "Thanks!" &
SW Fish Acclimation/Dips 7/5/08 Dear Bob, >Joe< I
have been a reader of WWM for several years and would like to thank you
and the crew members for the huge amounts of effort, experience,
wisdom, as well as common sense that has went into the site. I have
NEVER had to write because every question I've thought of has been
within these pages. In addition, I would like to give a huge 'Thank
you' to both you and Anthony for the books, 'CMA' as well
at 'Reef Invertebrates'. I would like to encourage all readers
to purchase both because there is additional information not posted on
WWM in these pages that is extremely valuable! These are the most
detailed books that I've read regarding the hobby and I appreciate
every word! I'm already on my 2nd copy of CMA! <Heeee!> My
first ever question is actually more of a clarification. In the past I
have not quarantined or dipped specimens and have been very lucky
regarding disease. This is all going to change. After reading every
acclimation article on WWM, every FAQ, and every chapter (repeatedly)
in CMA, I'm still a bit confused as to proper acclimation/dip
procedures. I know this is a relatively simple procedure and I think
that the root of the confusion that other readers have had is from not
actually seeing/experiencing the proper procedure first hand. There is
a big difference between reading and actually witnessing someone
properly acclimate/dip a specimen. <I totally agree with you> I
have done my best at compiling the information and have created a
general step by step acclimation procedure with dip. I would GREATLY
appreciate a critique. I believe that this step by step layout will
help other aquarists like me that have difficulty understanding the
complete and proper process. <Ok> This is a general procedure for
most common marine fish that appear to be in general good health, 1)
Upon bringing the specimen home, float bag in quarantine tank to
equalize temperature for about 10 minutes. 2) Add an air stone to the
bag and begin drip acclimating to quarantine tank for 40-50 minutes. 3)
While drip acclimating, prepare dip water in separate container. Use
pre- aerated RO water that is temperature adjusted and buffered with
sodium bicarbonate to about 8.2 <Will only raise to about 7.8>
(same parameters as quarantine) with or without Methylene blue added
according to bottle instructions. (Or should this dip water be made 24
hrs in advance?) <New is fine> 4) When drip acclimation is
completed, scoop specimen with net and dip in prepped water for 5-10
minutes depending on size and reaction to dip. 5) Net and place
directly in quarantine tank 6) Observe in quarantine for at least 4
weeks and administer treatment if symptoms arise. 7) Upon quarantine
release, drip acclimate to display tank (turn lights off or dim) and
release specimen. *Never mix bag water with quarantine or display
<Sounds good> Obviously there are other ways to go about this.
But in general, how does this look in your valued opinion? >Fine<
Again Bob, words cannot express how your and all of the WWM crew's
work has helped me and countless other aquarists. THANK YOU! Joe W.
Wichita, KS <Glad to help you. Bob Fenner>
UPDATE: Freshwater dip - items ejecting from
gills? Internal damage done? Holding ones breath for nine
minutes... RO water sans O2 4/9/08 Crew - <Joel> I know
you've not had a chance to even read my first post, <Mmm,
perhaps someone else has responded to this now...> but I'm
confused and upset. Sadly, the Paracanthurus did not survive. I
feel horrible. In analyzing my every step, I cannot figure out
where I failed. The only thing I can think of is that I
must've handled the freshwater dip incorrectly. At this point
I expect the crew to tell me that the apparent paralysis for the
first 5 minutes upon entering the water was a bad sign. When it
happened, I recalled Bob's comments on WWM that it's
harder on the owner than the fish. <... yes, often the
case> I've considered that I raised the PH of the water
too high, but my Red Sea tests showed Alkalinity and PH were
fine. <What were these values?> The only questionable thing
I can find in the analysis of my actions is this: the PH stayed
yellow (not on color scale), even after adding Red Sea's
buffering agent drops to the gallon <Mmm, would just use
baking soda... sodium bicarbonate> or so of RO freshwater.
<Stop! You did aerate this I hope/trust... RO water has no
dissolved gas... no oxygen...> So I added a few more drops.
Barely light purple (just at 8.0). A couple more drops and the
color went back to yellow. I decided my buffering agent might be
bad and did some reading on your site. I found a crew comment
that the PH might not be buffering and it might "bounce
back" if I try again. So, I added a few more drops. Still
yellow. Finally, I added baking soda and the PH immediately
registered between 8.2 and 8.4. <Ah, good> Could I have
completely overdone the buffer regardless of the reading? What
else could explain the (now apparent) gill damage that I
must've done after 9 minutes? <... the RO/dip-bath water
must need be aerated... even during such procedures... to provide
oxygen> I'm afraid of trying this again and killing
another beautiful specimen out of my own stupidity. Please give
me some hope that I shouldn't give up. Regards, Joel Pippin
<You are not the first case of such troubles... Am wondering
if I should re-emphasize the aeration, actually all steps of said
protocol/s... with the use of sidebars, lists... Aeration I
believe here was the real source of trouble. Bob Fenner>
Re: UPDATE: Freshwater dip - items ejecting
from gills? Internal damage done? Note: add emphasis on
articles re aerating dip water 4/9/08 Thanks for the
reply. I'll look up how to provide continual aeration,
but I suppose an airstone in the water before and during the
entire procedure would do the trick? <Yes... the RO water
is very close to being absolutely "flat"... sans
gas, w/o aeration> I've never done any aeration; I buy
my fresh and saltwater from the LFS, allowing the saltwater
to age... but assuming the vigorous mixing in of the salt at
the store is enough aeration. I never knew RO was devoid of
gases until now, despite all my reading. Yes, please
emphasize this step as you do PH adjustment for us who are
<1 year in the hobby. <Will do> Is an airstone the
best option here or some other small pump? <A mechanical
aerator (pump, tubing, "stone") is best here>
Regards, Joel <And you, BobF> Freshwater dip - items
ejecting from gills? Internal damage done? Hello Crew!
<Joel... is this your prev. email? A bit confusing... as
it is coming in some time after the latter...> I've
just received a beautiful Indian Yellow Bellied Blue Hippo
Tang from LiveAquaria's Diver's Den, and after a drip
acclimation of about an hour, I gave her a PH/temp adjusted
freshwater dip per the reading I've done here, monitoring
closely. I've tried to find information about various
fish reactions on the site, but could not find any so
I'll ask. The instant she hit the freshwater, she arched
to one side and froze in this posture until minute 5.
I've seen this before, so I wasn't too shocked.
However, at minute 9 of my intended 10, puffs of what I can
only describe as "smoke" appeared to come out of
her gills. <!?> A took this as one of those "signs
of stress" I should be monitoring for, and promptly
removed her to the tank where she will be housed. I know
opinions vary, but I'm working from Bob's comments in
regards to this species and the stress of QT. Okay, so now
she's in the tank behind a rock breathing heavily. She
shooed away the Skunk Cleaner when he came by, but I noticed
one or two more of these "puffs" from her gills,
and one had a ting of reddish hue to it. I wasn't overly
concerned until the Nassarius snails took an interest and had
to be moved away. As you know, being masters of "death
notification" in a tank (say, if a Cerith dies), I'm
in a bit of a panic. Of course I'll keep to actinics only
for awhile and give her a chance to adjust, but should I be
worried about internal damage from the dip at this point?
She's been panting for an hour. Best Regards, Joel Pippin
<I've amended the dip/bath article per our earlier
email... to include hopefully adequate emphasis on aeration
of the water... BobF> |
Another $20 donation in thanks - RE: Freshwater
dip - items ejecting from gills? Internal damage done? --
4/12/08 Bob - <Joel> First, thanks again for being
available to help. I've just donated another $20 through
Amazon (Joseph Pippin/joriki). I do wish you'd offer a phone
hotline for a fee, but I understand that you may not wish to do
this or that your business is not set up to offer such a service.
<Heee! No time... or at least I'd have to put "my
foot on the brake, accelerator and clutch simultaneously"...
trying to "multi-task" (can barely breathe while
keying) on the Net and telly...> I would've been happy to
pay to call you and make sure I had everything set correctly for
the dip after the first loss. There are just so many
books/articles to read about so many esoteric items in this hobby
it is hard to learn enough. <Yes... info. and
mis/dis-information overload for sure> I'm used to
managing and maintaining corporate data networks - and the fact
that those system are not alive makes a big difference. There are
so many variables in this hobby. I enjoy the challenge, but it
certainly is frustrating at times; there is so much bad,
outdated, debated, or opposing information to parse through. No
wonder so many leave the hobby in the first year or so. <Ah
yes... more than 100% turnover annually according to some
figures> Before I continue... you can thank Time Warner Cable
for such a delay unless your mail server had a hiccup and the
mail was queued for redelivery. Regardless, yes, this was the
first email you should have received. <Ahh> Anyway, I
located a replacement "rare" yellow-bellied tang on
LiveAquaria's diver's den the night after the loss of the
first. After communicating with you I took a deep breath and
reevaluated whether the first death now made me risk averse to
another attempt. I finally ordered the fish, bought airstones and
a pump at a local pet megamart chain, and started aerating 2
gallons of RO freshwater with enough baking soda to bring the PH
to 8.4. I started this the day prior to arrival. The airstone ran
non-stop and I checked the PH right up to dip time. <Good>
The LFS where I finally found Methylene blue told me that
freshwater dips kill tangs, <Mmmm... let's back-track a
bit here... or at least allow me, please, to make a broad/general
statement re life, our processes with. As you alluded to there is
a certain to huge fascination with the living world, in part due
to its quantum effects... i.e. lack of cohesive, predictable
behavior... The same applies here... SOME fish groups are far
more ON AVERAGE benefited from dip/bath procedures than others...
with concomitant dissimilar issues of survivability/mortality
(risk/benefit in your parlance perhaps)... HOWEVER, this universe
has more to it than simple causal-effect notions... There is at
least the considerations of "Null-hypotheses" (the cost
of doing nothing) and "Business Opportunity Costs" (can
be put in other ways...), what you might otherwise do. AFTER a
few decades actually working with hundreds of thousands of
specimens, reading, developing procedures for processing,
handling aquatic livestock... I will assure you that the vast
majority of Tangs/Acanthurids/Acanthuroids/Percoids... are better
off being dipped/bathed as per the protocol presented on WWM, in
articles and books by me (and others) are VERY worthwhile... Yes,
some tangs et al. do die outright, some later from the stress
from... However (see those other ways of consideration above),
the larger percentage are greatly aided in being rid of common
external parasite fauna, and further, their tankmates are also
conferred by their exclusion...> and when I mentioned your
advice, they asked if you were going to pay for the dead fish.
<Please refer these folks... I would take the time to chat
with them> Ouch. I remained faithful to your guidelines, and
the airstone worked well... no obvious signs of stress, and the
fish swam for half of the 8 minute dip, mostly laying flat only
when I got close. I opted to go straight to the main tank per
your advice, and while she hides behind a rock when we enter the
room, I've seen her out an about quite often when I poke my
head in quietly. Still not eating, but I have garlic-dipped sea
veggies on a clip nearby if she's interested. I hope she eats
soon. Not sure how long before I should worry that she suffered
PH shock - more on that in a moment... I must admit I do not
understand the science behind aerating water, but I'm now a
believer. How can H20 - with one part oxygen - lack soluble
oxygen? <... isn't "free" (in earlier years I
taught H.S. chemistry and physics, as well as biology)... O2,
diatomic oxygen, is about 210,000 ppm in the sea about us... at
most about 7 ppm in seawater... goes away quick with life
present...> Does a fish not extract the oxygen from the water
molecules? <No... this "magic molecule", the
universal solvent, the standard for specific heat... and so much
more is very strange/peculiar in many properties... one is in
just how "stable" it is... only disassociating (and
re-associating for that manner) into hydrogen and hydroxyl ions
(H+, OH-) on a small basis... RARELY as oxygen to any extent,
time...> Is there a resource to which you can direct me if the
answer is too complex to explain simply? <Mmm, most any high
school and up chemistry tome... Likely on the Net as well... Do
stay tuned to this same "Bat Channel", (WWM's
Dailies), as folks may well write in to address you and myself
here> I have one lingering concern after reading your drip
acclimation guide for lengthy shipments (and commercial
deliveries)... yours was the first article where I read that drip
acclimation isn't good. I assumed the drip reduces the
ammonia as the PH goes up, <Too little of the former while too
much of the latter...> especially without an airstone that
might raise the ammonia levels, <?... how?> but this is not
so according to your acclimation article. While reading during
the 3hr drip, I found your article on the subject but I
wasn't prepared to suddenly make my aerating water
PH-adjusted to the shipment water, <Mmm, do read again... as
you noted, this particular piece is for commercial concerns...
Not really such a matter for shorter termed shipped, well-packed
"end-user"/aquarist situations> so I used a few
drops of AmQuel in the shipment water about 2hrs in to chemically
neutralize the ammonia. <A good product, useful practice> I
was checking temp/PH/NH3 often during the process and ammonia was
going down slowly while PH was going up slowly, and ammonia
dropped to 0 once I added AmQuel. I hope I didn't wait too
long. Regardless, is AmQuel a bad shortcut for the
(non-commercial) buyer with few overnight shipments? <I have
used... hundreds of gallons of this fine Kordon/Novalek... Bob
Rofen to/through Johnny Farrell Kuhns chemical patents product in
such procedures... as stated, it IS useful> Regards, Joel
Pippin <Thank you, Bob Fenner, waking up>
|
Freshwater Dips and Ich, Proper methodology
10/31/07 Hello, <Hi> First, thank you for all the information
and time that you all put into your website. I don't know what
I'd do without it! I do all my research on WWM and now friends and
family come to me for aquatic advice :-) <Maybe you will join us
here some day.> I do have a question that I couldn't find a
specific answer to: I bought a Desjardini tang that had some ich on it
so I freshwater dipped it with meth blue (about 4 minutes) and
quarantined it. Within a few days it was active and eating with full
colors. About 5 days later the ich returned along with loss of color so
I administered another FW dip with meth blue (about 4 min) and within a
day it was back to full colors, active, and eating. Then, about a week
later (which was yesterday), the ich was back in full force again, loss
of color, rapid respiration, the works. I realized that this is my
fault, as the water quality had degraded because I hadn't done a
water change that whole week (don't worry, I've already
reprimanded myself). <Well the water quality may have encouraged the
infestation, but the pathogen was already present.> So I did a large
water change (always using water from my 100g system ensuring proper
temp/salinity/pH/etc) along with a FW dip with meth blue (about 5min).
<I assume the tang was never in the main tank and it is ich free,
otherwise you may be transferring more ich into the tank with every
water change.> Today, the tang is very active, breathing normally,
and has a voracious appetite. The problem is that the ich looks worse
than it did before. Usually, after dips, the ich disappears and the
fish's colors return but this time the colors haven't fully
returned (only partially) and more importantly the ich looks as though
it has spread. <FW dips are not really a cure for Ich. While it may
provide temporary relief t does not effect ich already detached from
the fish or ich that has already dug itself in deep to the fish's
body.> I've read all about crypto life cycle and the chemicals
but have always been wary of using copper or formalin (and have never
needed to as the dips with meth blue, water stability, and nutritious
feeding usually do the trick). <Can help control the parasite, but
will not eliminate it, however I too am weary of chemicals, they are
not very specific in what they effect.> So my main question is that
I was curious as to how often one could administer FW dips (once a
day/week/etc), aware that it probably has a lot to do with how stressed
the fish is already. <Daily if the fish seems strong, but as you say
it depends on the fish.> So I assume I will have to treat the QT
tank to prevent future outbreaks as well and am considering
hyposalinity or possibly copper (which I've read all about on WWM,
of course). Any recommendations are much, much appreciated as I do not
want to lose this beautiful fish. <Neither is great especially with
a tang which tend to be sensitive to copper, and making a mistake with
hypo is a real problem where it either kills the fish if it gets too
low or is ineffective if it gets too high. A nice article by Steven Pro
can be found here outlining your options
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .> I
apologize if the answer to this question has already been posted but I
did look around and could not find one (regarding how often one can FW
dip, that is). Thanks again! -Grant- <FW dips will help but not to
be considered a cure. I would go with copper here, but the levels need
to maintained closely, or if you have a second QT tank move the fish
daily between the two, sterilizing and drying out completely the unused
tank. This can be very effective but stressful on the fish with all the
netting and moving about.> <Chris>
Fresh Water dip 10/30/07 Hello Crew!
<And to you> Good evening to you all. Have a question on FW dip.
My LFS is willing to do a FW dip after I buy the fish. Is it ok to do
the dip at the store with the parameters matching the LFS water and
then bring it back and add it to my tank with slow acclimation.
<Certainly> The reason I want to do it this way, instead of
matching the dip to my water is that I find it hard to make a FW
solution with PH that matches mine, without a PH meter. Thanks Gans
<No worries> P.S. Bob, Sam at Aqtc Warehouse was looking for you.
<Please pass my number along, have him call me: XXXX .
BobF>
Quarantining and dipping 7/22/07 Hello
Sorry to bother you <No bother :-)> with something there's a
lot of information on but I'm new to the hobby and all the
information is confusing me. I am a very simple person. Please bear
with me and read through this and help a simple person out. I would
like to use the best method of quarantining and FW dipping. So from
what I've read the quarantining comes first. And this lasts for 14
to 21 days? For quarantining new arrivals I don't medicate just
isolate and observe. <correct> To do that I float the bag in the
main tank for 15 min.s to get the temp the same, then I net scoop the
fish out and straight into quarantine (no dip first?). <Please see
here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dipratuse.htm and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm> In the quarantine tank is
half saltwater from the main tank and half fresh, filtered only with a
sponge from the main and some stress zyme to help the biological filter
and ornaments to give it some covering and an air stone to give it a
decent amount of oxygen. And light should be dull. For the next 3-2
weeks I should do daily water changes of what percent? <If the water
changes are daily and the bioload moderate, I'd say 5 to 10%. But
this depends a lot on the bioload of the quarantine tank. Bigger or
smaller water changes might be needed. Monitor your ammonia and no2
daily so that you know you're doing enough.> Then after the
weeks have passed I do a fresh water dip preferably with 5% methylene
blue for 3-5 min.s or 15 min.s with an air stone in the bucket that has
been going for 2hours first. Which one is best? If they're even
right. And is using baking soda with the methylene blue right? And how
much baking soda for 1 gallon? Then it's another scoop and into the
main tank with the light off to prevent extra stress. <You use the
baking soda to adjust the alkalinity (reduces stress). For more info on
methane blue dips: http://wetwebmedia.com/methblueart.htm> Sorry for
the long, attempted step by step. <Sorry I can't give you more
specific step-by-step instructions. The truth is that a lot of it is
going to be your personal choice/preference and the details of your
setup. For instance, I don't know how big your quarantine tank
is.> One last thing. I recently had my quarantine tank set up as a
hospital tank recently. Today I bleached everything, rinsed a few times
<With dechlorinator I hope!> and left in the sun to dry. Then I
set it all back up to use as a quarantine tank tomorrow and have it
running with the water and filter from my main tank. When I tested the
nitrite level it was at .2, which I don't quite understand since
there should be no waste, so no ammonia and therefore no nitrite.
<Did you use tap water?> What am I missing here? <If you
didn't use distilled or RO/DI water then it's quite possible
that the nitrites were in the water from the get-go.> I didn't
think it needs to cycle when it has the stuff from the main tank in it.
This will be my first quarantine and I really don't want another
dead fish (died because I didn't quarantine when I got it), now I
know better and want to do it right. <You won't regret it. Just
review some of the WWM info pages on quarantine tanks again. Sometimes
it takes going over things a few times before it starts to all come
together (at least for me anyway).> Thank you so much for your time
and help. I really appreciate it. Katie Paulsen <De nada, Sara
M.>
Re: Regal tang acting weird... dipping
protocols Hello, <Hi again> Again thanks for the advice, and
since you thought my questions were good I thought I would ask a couple
more about the freshwater dip for the Blue Regal/Hippo tang coming out
of copper QT... hope that's ok!!! <Sure> I have read the
article on WWM and the FAQs so I more or less just wanted to confirm I
have digested and fully understood the procedure before I go ahead. I
would hate to think I might cause her more harm than good in doing
something wrong and would appreciate some reassurance I have things
right, and if I don't, someone to set me straight: <Will try>
Since she is not visibly suffering from Ick now after the treatment,
would it make sense not to include medication in the bath such as
Methylene Blue? Or would it be advisable to include this in the bath
for good measure? <Mmm, well, amongst the stockpile of chemicals
that can/could be added to such dips/baths, Methylene Blue is
exceedingly non-toxic, non-stressful> If I should use Methylene Blue
should I add this to the bath before checking PH parameters or will
this not affect the PH? <Will not practically effect pH... though
with aeration, can help to sustain high, steady pH> If there's
no need to use it am I literally just preparing temp and PH adjusted
fresh water to put her in? <Yes> The procedure: Using tap water
treated with a water conditioner/de-chlorinator in a bucket, match the
temperature and PH (using baking soda to increase) to the water in the
QT tank that she's currently in. Use a net to lift her out of the
QT tank and then do I release her into the bucket of premixed bath or
do I keep her in the actual net for the duration of the 5-10 min.s,
monitoring her reaction and pulling her out if she thrashes about or
tries to jump out? <Better to release large, active fishes in
baths... re-net to remove> Then do I net her out (or simply lift her
out if she remains in net) drain, and then transfer her straight to the
main system? <Yes> In terms of removing copper and sterilizing QT
tank (that has been exposed to Ick), do I do water changes and run
Carbon or CupriSorb in filter until copper test kit reads zero, then
empty, soak tank and PVC for 1-2 hours in non-scented household bleach,
then rinse thoroughly twice with 4 x dose of de chlorinated tap water
and allow to air dry? Should I run the bleach solution through the hang
on filter and rinse the same as for the tank, then return filter media
to main system to prepare it for possible future hospital/QT purposes?
<I would add the bleach (will complex any copper as cupric
chloride), let circulate for half an hour or so, dump, rinse...
re-fill> I won't do anything until I'm sure I have this
right. She was a lot calmer last night than she has been so I'm not
panicked about taking her out of the QT tank as soon as possible. Many
thanks for your advice and patience with me! Hillary. <A pleasure to
share, help. Bob Fenner>
Definitive dip/bath for varieties of fish
10/10/05 Salutations, <And you> I am in the process of
stocking my 60 liter tank (in actuality, it's closer to 47 liters
or 13 gallons) and was wondering what fish do better with dips as
opposed to baths. Every fish will spend a luxurious 3-4 weeks in QT
before arriving to their final destination, but which fish would get a
dip and which would take a bath? Is there a list on the web (or maybe
here that I carelessly skipped) that says which fish gets what and for
how long? <Mmm, not as far as I'm aware> For example, would
you give a bi-color Dottyback a freshwater bath with Methylene blue?
What would be the minimum time? <A few minutes> (sources say
anything less than 3 minutes is worthless). I understand if they are
thrashing about, get them out...but what if they lay down? Thanks again
for the wonderful resource! Dana <Smaller fishes, less time,
scale-less fishes, less time, fishes that live in close association
with invertebrates, less time. There are some notes under the heading
"acclimation" by group, per articles by me on WWM, but the
real "bottom line" here is watching your livestock while they
are dipped/bathed, and hoisting them out if/when they appear overly
distressed. Bob Fenner>
New fish manager, questions re:
freshwater dip 4/4/06 Hello. I wanted to thank
you guys on a great job, as I visit your site at least once or twice a
day. <More than me!> I've recently come to manage the fish
department in a full-line pet store, and had some questions. The last
guy didn't think much of skimmers and most other forms of
filtration, and I can't exactly go crazy with upgrading everything
just yet, <Take your time... plan... purchase, install
incrementally...> but so far I have managed to hook up a skimmer to
our largest of 3 saltwater systems. <Shocking eh?> I've also
taken to dripping the fish over the course of about 3-4 hours (in
contrast to the previous float and drop technique used by the last
manager). I have also begun using a freshwater methylene blue dip.
Works absolute wonders (and thanks to you guys here at WWM for that one
too!) <Is of tremendous use> This is my first question. I get in
marine fish on average 3 times a week. And it really does become a
hassle to make up dip water that often. How effective would it be to
set up, say, a twenty gallon long aquarium with a small pump, heater,
and a good mechanical aerator, and using net breeders to dip several
fish at once, leaving this tank setup for extended periods of time?
<Best to re-make each shipment... Though a stock solution of dip
itself can be made, stored> I can't really seem to find anything
on permanent dip tanks. Perhaps because it's generally not a good
idea for some reason? <Loss of concentration, possibility of pest,
pathogen transfer> I now travel to our wholesaler to hand pick our
fish, both fresh and marine, which vastly helps in attaining the best,
healthy fish. But, as always, either I miss something on one of them,
or one or two develop something after a couple days after transit. So,
I've also set up one quarantine tank, with another to follow
shortly. <Wowzah! A big step...> But for some reason, the
nitrites WILL NOT go down, no matter what I do. Right now, I'm
running Paraguard, but am thinking of switching to methylene blue. Is
the medication stalling the biological filtration in the filter,
<Correct> or am I perhaps not being patient enough. Nitrites have
been off the scale for about a week now, and the tank has been set up
around a month. Any suggestions other than patience? <Frequent water
changes, use of established, clean bio-media...> I'd like to
have this tank running as soon as possible. Thanks again, and hopefully
I won't have too many other questions!. <Bring them on. No
worries... been there, done that. Bob Fenner> I thought a Quarantine was a place to dig up rocks! Dip
procedures as well 5/3/07 Dear WWM Crew:
<Darrel> Somewhere in this mess are a few questions -- I hope
it's easier to read than it was to write. <Okay>
Ahem. Once I manage to get a fish to my display tank, it
lives in a 0/0/0 (Ammonia, Nitrite & Nitrate) world with 10% water
changed every week, lots of varied food to eat and few worries (not
sure what a fish WOULD worry about, but there are no sharks, eels,
groupers to eat them and no taxes to pay). There is one
little Hawkfish that nipped my clownfish but he will be dealt with --
maybe a stern talking to or possibly a notation on his permanent record
that will follow him for the rest of his life. But getting TO my main
tank is a tougher road than I'd have expected. At the beginning,
the wise, knowledgeable, caring experts at BOTH my LFS advised a 4 day
'waiting period' before placing their fish in my main tank.
<At least this is some interval...> Since they know best and have
years of experience, I followed their recommendations to the
letter. As you all would expect, after most
of the fish in the main tank died of Ick, a REAL quarantine
program was instituted starting with a bare 10 gallon tank/hood/heater
and HOB Whisper filter. <Mas mejor... Much better> Never wanting
to see or hear about Ick ever again, this tank was treated with Copper
Power (chelated copper) as per manufacturer's
instructions. But good luck getting a Nitrogen Cycle started
in a copper treated tank. <Or sustain such...> Maybe
some people can but I never could. <Me neither> This
meant 3-4 10% water changes every week, which means re-dosing the
copper -- <Yes> and with the test kits available to the hobby
trade it's like playing Russian Roulette with an automatic
pistol. I've tried all the major brands and their
test kits and in my actual surveys 8 out of 10 people can't read
the difference between the three shades on their respective color
charts that differentiate between TOO LOW--JUST
RIGHT--LETHAL. <Agreed... but there are better, useful kits...> I
lost enough fish to copper toxicity that I've decided to swear off
Copper until I can obtain research grade tools. (working on that one
already!) <See Hach, LaMotte... they have reasonable-cost
assays...> MEANWHILE .... I'm committed to an eight minute
Freshwater dip upon initial acquisition -- with my only reservation
being that all the emphasis on SLOW ACCLIMATION is tossed out the
window with this method, isn't it? <Mmm, no> Also, no buts
about it '¦ 30 DAYS from the last sign of ANYTHING before they
see my main tank. The thirty days of boredom rule will
also be absolute. <Javul!> Which leaves me with two choices: 1) A
'normal' water setup for that 30 days with nothing but
observation (other than the dip) 2) Hyposalinity for 30 days in a
proactive effort to stave off parasites. If I'm thinking correctly
(and no that doesn't happen as often as I'd like) -- unlike
with copper or any medications, either of these options
would allow a filter with activated carbon, Bio-Chem-Zorb or Chemipure
or Purigen or anything I need to keep the water pristine, wouldn't
they? <Could> A) Would you recommend a hyposalinity quarantine
for us newbies or just regular saltwater? <For most species of
fishes, all invertebrates, algae... regular> B) Is there a pretty
accurate list of fishes that can't tolerate 1.010 ? <Have never
encountered such> C) While we're at it, a list of fishes that
can't tolerate a FW dip or maybe a duration/time table for various
fishes? Regards as always, Darrel <Mmm, much more than this to it...
A need to as smartly apply your observation, judgment re the apparent
state of health of said incoming fishes... and to bear close watch on
their progress during the (aerated) dip/bath procedure... to remove to
the system with full spg if/when too much stress is obvious... if so.
Bob Fenner> Freshwater Dips Hello, I have been told
that eels and dragonets do not tolerate freshwater dips. Is this true?
Also are there any other types of fish that will not tolerate
freshwater dips? Thanks, Richard <Richard, I recommend shorter
freshwater dips for any species that lives in close association with
invertebrates. This would include clownfish, mandarin and eels.
However, I do not recommend eliminating them altogether. Avoid copper
compounds, dye and organophosphate-containing remedies as these are
deadly to eels. Mandarins generally do not handle these chemicals well
either. Of further note, both of these species do require frequent
water changes and are generally not good tank mates. Mandarins should
generally be kept only with very peaceful tank mates for a variety of
reasons. -Dave Schmottlach>
FW dip Hi there guys! Hope you all are well!
<and you as well good buddy> Today was the day I returned the
fish to the main tank from quarantine. They were there for crypt. and
the yellow tang had some black spots as well. Before re-introducing to
the main tank, I Fw dipped the yellow tang. He is not doing well at
this point, and I am very worried that he isn't going to make it.
Let me tell you what transpired this morning & see if you can shed
some light here. I acclimated them from the qt tank to the
"home" tank by adding "home tank" water every 15
minutes for an hour. <an hour is a long time for
acclimation... was this vessel heated and aerated? If not there was
certainly a drop in temperature... and to a lesser extent dissolved
oxygen> Then I adjusted temp & pH in fresh water to match that
of the water I had just acclimated them in. <remember to
aerate here too :) Especially if hot water from the tap is used... very
low dissolved oxygen in the water from your hot water tank> Here
comes the fiasco part... Netting a yellow tang is a terrible thing to
do, & although I'm not sure what other methods I can do to get
this guy out (if he makes it), I hope I can find something other than
netting to do it. All those great spiky things he has get horribly
caught up in the net. <ahhh...yes. No green nets here for
spined species. White nylon nets for this (all really). We all learn
this one the hard way alas> OK so anyway, back to the FW dip... I
scoop him out of the acclimation area and put him over into the Fw
area. He is, of course, caught in the net. So I spend most of the time
trying to get him untangled from this net, while he's in the Fw. We
get that done, & he just seems more stressed than he ought to, so I
take him out. Now, although I can't be certain because I was more
intent on getting him free from the net than I was on watching the
clock, I am CERTAIN that he was in that dip no longer than 5 minutes,
and probably only 3. (I understand that 3 minutes isn't really long
enough & I'm sorry.) <no problem... three minutes is a
minimum but helpful> So now that he's back in the main tank,
he's sort of dog paddling & gilling very rapidly. The cleaner
shrimp I've added while the other fish were in QT are THRILLED to
see a fish. They're very gung-ho about cleaning and run over to him
anytime he gets near the bottom so he keeps trying to stay up, but
he's having a really hard time with it. Based on what I've read
about FW dips, they should NOT be this traumatic on the fish.
<correct> Aside from not leaving him in long enough, which is not
going to help the black spot I know, what else have I done wrong?
<my guess is that the rough netting/entrapment caused most of the
duress> Is there a possibility that he'll make it?
<yes... they are quite hardy... but keep the lights off and remove
the shrimp if necessary.. they may be causing far more stress at this
point> I am just sick to think that I saved him from ich only to
kill him upon returning him to his home. Please advise. Thanks! TJ
<wishing you the best of luck. Anthony>
Re: Fw dip Anthony, Thank you sooo much for your
encouragement! You guys are all so great! I cannot thank you enough for
all your help!!! <it is our great pleasure, my friend> Will
be tossing that green net monster TONIGHT! & running to the store
in the morning to get white nylon! <yes... you'll find that most
aquarists after a some time in the hobby will only use nylon nets. The
green nets are "faster" in the water... but much more harsh.
Its rather easy to untangle spines from nylon instead> Thank you for
that info. I do have an update on the tang. He seems much improved
tonight with breathing back to normal (almost) & he ate a bit of
food a little while ago. <very good to hear!> Lights have
remained off all day but will come on as normal on the timer tomorrow
a.m. <a good plan> The shrimp seem to have settled down a
little bit (actually they seem rather heartbroken that he won't let
them clean him). Hopefully he'll come around in a day or two when
he starts to feel better. <fair enough> Will keep that in mind
about acclimation. There was about a 2 degree temp drop. <not
bad at all... but no more than 2F recommended. 4F plus incites
"ich"> I really screwed stuff up right & left today.
One question & I'll leave you. The tang has a split (torn) back
fin thanks to my great netting technique. Is it OK to put Stress Coat
in the tank with the shrimp in there? <sure... but doubtful it
will help much. Vitamins in the food will heal faster> I'm sure
his fins will heal rapidly on their own, but if this would help &
be OK with the inverts then I figured I'd toss it in. <no harm
if it pleases you. Will help the skimmer work better too... watch
carefully for overflow> Thank you so much again for all your
help/kind words!!! TJ <with kind regards, Anthony>
Going For A Dip... I don't mean to sound dense
but isn't there going to be a temp, pH and salinity shock
somewhere? Either between the parameters of the LFS store
water and the FW dip, or the FW dip and the QT? There
is going to be a difference between the two right? Or am I
over thinking this whole matter? So is it best to dilute the
LFS water with the QT water to get the fish acclimated first before
dipping? <Your questions are certainly not "dense"!
Here's the run-down: Yes, there will be a certain degree of osmotic
shock as a result of freshwater dipping the fish. The temperature and
pH of the freshwater should be similar to the saltwater. However, the
rationale behind freshwater dipping is that parasites and other
undesirable organisms cannot make the osmotic "stretch", as
fishes can. The fish is netted out of the bag, then placed in the
dipping bucket. After the dip, the fish is simply released into the qt.
Stressful...yes, to a certain extent. But I can honestly say that I
have been using this dip technique for years (as have thousands of
other hobbyists), and I have never lost a fish during (or after) this
process. Just be careful, and your fishes should do okay> Also is a
20 gallon tank acceptable for a 5-6" angelfish? <For
quarantine, may be a bit cramped, but could work with adequate
filtration. A 40 would be better...(but of course, more expensive!).
This size tank is, of course, completely unacceptable for long-term
housing of this sized fish, as I'm sure you've surmised>
Greatly appreciate your first response, and thanks for having a place
to ask questions. Steve <That's why we are here, Steve! We all
learn together! Feel free to contact us any time! Regards, Scott
F>
Taking A Dip Without Going Overboard (FW Dip
Duration) Hey Crew, sorry to bug you again, but I have a question
regarding FW dips. I was reading some threads on Reef Central and came
across one with a kid whose Percula Clown had some type of
parasite. One of the responders to the thread said multiple
times to do a FW bath for 15 minutes to an hour with
Formalin. That seems awfully long to me. <I've never
heard anyone dip a marine fish for an hour! WOW! Yep- that will
definitely finish off the parasites, not to mention the fish!> I was
under the impression that baths were saltwater with the meds in it.
<Well there are times when you simply will keep the fish immersed in
saltwater with the selected medication. However, for the majority of
times, such as acclimation of new fishes prior to quarantine, a 5-10
minute freshwater dip is appropriate. Optionally, you can add Methylene
blue to the freshwater..> Can marine fishes live that long in FW?
<I could not imagine anything good coming from a one hour
full-strength freshwater dip for a marine fish!> Am I missing
something? If I'm totally wrong, please let me know.
<Nope, you are more-or-less on track... Check out this link:
http://wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>
QUARANTINE Love your book, the articles you have
written and especially the Q&A feature at FFExpress and thanks for
your earlier answer re your preferred approach to quarantine fish.
Could you please clarify some specifics? The new fish arrives and you
float the bag in the fresh water/ methyl blue dip solution to equalize
temperatures. Should the dip solution be at the approximately 82
degrees temperature that you will maintain for the quarantine period
(assuming a low SG, high temp approach to fish quarantine), or should
the dip solution be at a "near bag temperature" (most likely
to be in the mid 70s)? Once the dip process is complete do you put the
fish directly into the high temp, low salinity environment or into a
normal environment and then gradually work your way to a high temp /
low salinity environment with small adjustments? Maybe I'm sweating
the details too much, but since you've convinced me of the merits
of quarantining fish, I'd like to be sure I'm maximizing the
potential for fish survival. >> The dip solution should be near
the ambient/bag temperature, then to the quarantine conditions
(intermediate... to the main system)... somewhere
"in-between"... Bob Fenner... who agrees with your apparent
philosophy
Dip/Quarantine I'm a bit confused regarding
how to go about dipping and quarantining fish. I would like to dip
my fish in freshwater for about 2-10 minutes and then move them to a
quarantine tank for about two weeks. At times you have recommended
Methylene blue (sorry I don't know the spelling). If I use the
Methylene blue do I net the fish out and put it directly into
the quarantine tank or do I give it another dip in saltwater
comparable to my primary and quarantine tank? <No extra
dip necessary... nor the Methylene blue if the livestock is not overly
stressed> Do I do the same for inverts such as cleaner shrimp,
snails, LR, hermit crabs? <Wouldn't necessarily dip these
as a "end user" (different situation for intermediaries in
the chain of supply... and for other species/groups of
invertebrates)... acclimate them and place these species directly...
pieces on acclimation procedures posted at www.wetwebmedia.com>
Thanks for your help. >> <You're welcome. Bob
Fenner>
Dip/Quarantine question Bob, Thanks for your help.
I do seem to be having prob.s with dipping fish (corals always go just
fine) and I think I'm doing something wrong. Basically, I use
methyl-blue fresh dip, and try to minimize shock to the fish as much as
possible (ph is ~8.2, temp matches bag water temp, dim lights, etc),
but I've never been able to dip a fish for more than 2 min.s
(actually, I usually end the dip in slightly less than 60 seconds)
because they all exhibit the same behavior - sink to the bottom and
have difficultly maintaining their balance they seem to lean to one
side or fall over. Do you have any ideas of what would cause this?
Thanks! <Actually, there might be a lack of aeration to blame here
(best to add an airstone...), but the behavior you mention is to be
expected, and tolerated... Yes, stressful to the fishes, but less than
dying from infectious, parasitic diseases... Bob Fenner>
Lemonpeel Angel and dipping Hello Guys,
<Salute, goombah! Anthony Calfo in your service> Just one
question on giving a Lemonpeel Angel a Methylene Blue/Fresh Water dip.
Is it safe to give a Lemonpeel a 5 to 10 minute dip? Read the FAQ's
and your page on Centropyge but didn't find my answer. I am
planning to purchase this fish and just not sure if I should dip the
Lemonpeel. Thanks very much! <a properly conducted freshwater dip of
at least five minutes (aerated, buffered, temperature adjusted, etc) is
fine for the angel... towards ten minutes with discretion. The problem
is the Methylene blue. Centropyge angels are sensitive to metals (like
copper) and organic dyes (like Methylene blue). Do consider Formalin
instead for the medicated bath and follow mfg dose. Freshwater alone is
fine too if you believe the fish to be in good health for starters
before going into quarantine (you are putting him in quarantine
right?!?) Kindly, Anthony> Ron
Re: Lemonpeel Angel Anthony, you are a good
Dude. <yes. thank you... when I'm not being a strict
marine Nazi (remember the soup Nazi episode on Seinfeld?), hehe...>
Definitely going into the Q-tank. Thanks Again, Ron <excellent! Best
of luck to you, Anthony>
Ich Its me again I know I am being a real pain but
I am very attached to my fish. I performed my first ever fresh water
dip first I dipped the powder blue for 2 minutes and that went good
then I dipped my Sweetlips about a minute 20 seconds into it he went
belly up and I panicked and quickly removed him from the fresh water
dip and back into the QT tank is that normal. <it has been
demonstrated that FW dips less than 3 minutes are nearly ineffective
for most targeted pathogens. And a good rule is that a fish that cannot
make it through a properly conducted five minute dip is not likely to
survive any other treatment either (numbered days). SW fish are not
necessarily going to act normal in FW... they are stressed indeed. Some
will swim casually and even eat food if offered (not recommended
ever!). Most act sluggish and a bit stunned and may even lay down on
the bottom of the dip bucket (quite normal and OK). Severe reactions
are generally attempts to leap out of the water or spit streams of
water up out of the bucket... this is a case for removal. If your
Sweetlips simply sunk like a rock... sounds normal to me. Pulling both
fish under three minutes honestly did more harm than good. I wish we
could go into very specific detail for everybody, but time just
doesn't allow it on subjects like this that have been written at
great length here on WWM (articles, FAQ's and or Forum) and
elsewhere on the net... not to mention many books too. We do appreciate
you caring enough about your fish to ask questions and especially of
us. At this point, you really need to do the research, my friend, and
make an informed decision based on an intelligent consensus and commit
to it. I personally dip for 5 minutes minimum. Some large scaled and
hardy fishes can actually take quite a bit more. Best regards>
Questions on dips Bob/Crew, I have a few questions
for you on dips for new livestock: 1) How long should one dip
(freshwater, ph & temp adjusted) the following fish before putting
them into quarantine: Banggai Cardinals, Firefish gobies, Mandarin
Dragonet, dwarf angels, tangs? Is 10 minutes too long if they
aren't showing signs of stress? If not, could I risk a 15 min dip?
(I'd really like to stretch it out past 15 min.s if this isn't
too risky to eliminate as many parasites as possible). <10-15
minutes with aeration of the dip/bath material for these species should
be fine. The real "bottom line" for any given specimen is
actual observation on your part... you will be able to tell if the
animal is overly stressed> 2) I've read a book on marine fish
medications/disease where they recommend giving fish a 5-10 freshwater
dip daily, for 2-5 days. Is this a good thing to do - better than a
single dip? <Most circumstances, specimens, fewer, longer dips
for whatever reasons are best... it is more stressful and damaging to
keep netting, manipulating livestock> If so, would you return them
to a new quarantine tank after each dip (rather than returning them to
the q-tank that they came from for fear of reinfection)? <Depends on
the reason for dipping. In practical terms, they generally must be
placed to the "just removed from" quarantine set-up... For
folks with more than one such rig, a freshly made-up setting can be
used, with the old one dumped, bleached between uses.> 3) Which of
the above are not tolerant of Methylene blue? <All> On a
prior email, you indicated that dwarf angels can't tolerate methyl
blue and suggested that I research other species for methyl blue
tolerance. <Mmm, not me> Where can I find a systematic list
of recommended freshwater dip durations per species, and info regarding
medication toxicity on a per species basis? <Cursory reading of
Nelson Herwig, Fish Diseases... Edward Noga's work is worthwhile as
well...> I've search several websites and have not found
anything (or found conflicting statements). I haven't had much luck
with finding good definitive/detailed info in published books either.
I've even gone to the websites of medication manufacturers w/o much
luck. <The names mentioned above are not easily found... perhaps a
college library, book finding service, or large public aquarium with a
book buyer...> Thanks. Sorry for questions who's answers are
probably obvious to most, but these details drive me nuts and your
website answers seem to be the most trustworthy. <Thank you... The
Net will become something more, better with time... Bob Fenner>
Re: Questions on dips Bob, Thanks for the reply -
you are unbelievably responsive! However, now that I'm clear on the
fact that methyl-blue is fairly benign, I have another question. I have
been having problems with freshwater dips - the fish do VERY well
during the dip, but the problem is AFTER the dip when I return them to
the salt water quarantine tank (I've been using methyl-blue with
the FW dip). When I return the fish to the SW q-tank, they show signs
of oxygen-starvation (panting - sink to bottom, fall to side, etc).
I've also had some fish appear to show small lesions on their body
within a day of the dip - about the size of a pinhead - as if the flesh
beneath the scale had 'popped'. The FW I use is RO/DI water,
and the SW comes from my existing reef tanks. I've documented my
receiving protocol below - could you take a look at give me suggestions
on why I'm having prob.s with step#5? Thanks! PROTOCOL: I use
baking soda and a ph pen and seem to have success with freshwater dips,
but have problems AFTER the dip. Here's my protocol: 1) Set up
quarantine tank (has water from main display tank): temp-77F,
PH-8.0-8.2, Alk 9.8, 2) set up freshwater dip: temp 77F, PH 8.0,
airstone in 1 gal dip tank runs for 2 hours to oxygenate and continues
to run in corner of dip while fish are treated. I use Methyl-blue (a 5%
mix. I add several drops to the 1 gal dip container until the solution
is deep blue). 3) When I get the fish, I do the following before
dipping: A) - float bag in container of salt water (not same container
as dip or q-tank) for 15 min.s to adjust temp to 77F. B) open bag and
pour contents into a hard plastic container. C) I add salt water
(ph=8.0-8.2, alk=9.8, temp=77F) to the plastic container with shipping
water gradually, over 30 min.s, until I've tripled the original
shipping volume (this is an attempt to slowly adjust the shipping
water's PH to 2/3 of the way to PH of 8.0. <I take it these are
"local" purchases... some longer time/hauls might call for
not mixing the shipping water... due to nitrogenous wastes
concentration, lowered pH in this water... and consequent burns with
adding the new to it> 4) I begin the dip: I use a small plastic
container to scoop the fish out of the container in step#3 instead of a
net (minimize stress) and attempt to drain most of the water from
container used to scoop the fish before adding the fish to the dip mix.
The fish seem to tolerate the dip well - they may exhibit some rapid
movement initially, but continue to swim around throughout the dip - no
jumping. I run the dip for up to 20 min.s (to eliminate Brooklynella,
which I've heard requires a 15 min dip). 5) I move the fish from
the dip to the quarantine tank. Here's where the problem begins:
The fish sink to bottom, with rapid gill movement, but lethargic fish
activity. I had a cinnamon clown that died 1 day later (never recovered
from the lethargy) and it had several pinhead sized sores on its body
(looked like the flesh had 'popped' under the scales). There
were NO sores on the fins. Another angel (keyhole), died within 1 hour
of being placed in the q-tank (no visible sores, but it had rapid gill
movement/lethargy). Another Lemonpeel angel died within 4 days - after
it recovered from its lethargy, it appeared to have problems with its
swim bladder - it always pointed almost straight up toward the surface.
It also have very rapid gill movement. <Mmm, strange... all of your
protocol, procedure looks very sharp... I might well lower the spg in
your quarantine system initially (to the upper "teens"... add
extra aeration there, limit light intensity, and possibly add a hexose
simple sugar (about a teaspoon per five gallons)... the last an
old-timer, now "Vital" treatment. Otherwise, I'd be
looking for better suppliers of your livestock. Bob Fenner>
Puffer problems Thanks so much, Anthony! How long
should I leave my puffer in the Formalin dip? <simply for the
duration of your normal FW dip... 10-15 minutes is long but recommended
in this case (I agree with your decision)> Also, can you tell me why
Bob's book recommends copper for puffers? <indeed... as
aquarists we all have different perspectives and often a recommendation
must be made at times on a case by case basis. I would agree that
puffers are VERY hardy among scaleless fishes and for a common white
spot infection (Crypt) copper may be short and sweet and tolerable.
However, since you have not mentioned clear white spots and have
informed us that you are seeing blotches and resistance to long FW
baths... that tells me that the possible parasite is deep enough in the
flesh (to resist FW alone) that to get enough copper in the system to
kill the fish might very well kill the puffer first.> Karen
<Ultimately, my best advice dear is to put the puffer in a bare
bottomed QT tank for 4 weeks with more FW dips and short and long
Formalin baths. Best regards, Anthony>
Dipping New Arrivals Good morning, I have a fish
and some Macroalgae arriving this morning from FFE and I have a couple
of quick questions. Should I FW dip the fish upon arrival or just put
him in the QT right away since he's been stressed and traveling all
night? <Quarantine> Also, is it possible to FW dip Macroalgae for
a few minutes? <Not sure if it can be done, but I wouldn't.
Little to no threat of pathogens.> Will FW harm the algae or is it
better to just swish it a little in saltwater? <I would do neither.
Just acclimate and then place Caulerpa into your system while
discarding the bag water.> Thank you, Chip <You are welcome.
-Steven Pro>
Dips help bob, I've read your article on fresh
water dips and maybe I'm such a novice because it seemed way over
my head. <Mmm, as you are obviously a reader/writer of English, and
intelligent, this is a failing on my part. The work/s are intended for
general audiences of a wide reading and understanding level. Let's
see where the lack is> I have a 30 gallon tank with a small gold
stripe Maroon clown and small coral beauty. <Yikes... this system is
a bit small for these fishes... the Maroon may prove too much for the
Dwarf Angel here> I also had a royal Gramma for about 6 months that
died last week, kind of out of the blue, and about a week after I added
the angel and two hermits. Upon review of the Gramma before burial I
could not see any physical oddities. <Okay> could the angel or
crabs have brought an unwanted present? <Possibly. Perhaps just
"stress" proved too much... too much disparate, negatively
interacting life in too small a space> also, two weeks before his
demise I raised the ph via buffer from 8.0 to 8.3 following the
directions on the product. salinity was about 1018 - 1019 temp around
75 <Mmm, I would raise your spg to more like natural seawater
(1.025) over time> subsequently I added 15lbs of live rock a couple
attached a protein skimmer, and done 2 -15% water changes <The
skimmer and live rock will help, definitely> now the clown is acting
weird, not really eating the last two days or as perky as in the past.
he was the first fish and had him since September. Though there are no
white spots anywhere, I think I notice some "velvety"
substance on his body - but I could be hallucinating too. Hence, I
thought just for prevention I would investigate dipping the clown. I
have no quarantine tank and never dipped a fish before. <I see>
if I read your procedure correctly, can I simply put the clown in a
bucket of fresh dechlorinated tap water at or slightly above the tank
temp for a couple minutes. with careful observation? how can I make
sure the ph is the same? <Use baking soda to elevate the pH, make
the dip/bath longer, several minutes if possible> I was
contemplating copper, but after reading your materials, understand it
kill the rock is just purchased. thanks for anything. <Let's
keep discussing your situation, studying until you are comfortable with
your course of actions. Bob Fenner>
Re: dips help thanks for responding so soon, >
<Yikes... this system is a bit small for these fishes... the Maroon
may prove too much for the Dwarf Angel here> though he did nose the
angel around a bit at the beginning the clown is really quite little
and docile. also I've tried to create enuf hiding places and swim
throughs for the angel. > <Mmm, I would raise your spg to more
like natural seawater (1.025) over > time> I've never had the
salinity that high, I was worried it was even too high. <Let's
keep discussing your situation, studying until you are comfortable with
your course of actions. Bob Fenner> Do you see any problem with
waiting a couple days to see if anything changes, or should I just try
a dip. (don't worry no liability to you). <A good idea. Best to
be patient> Maybe he's just bored with the food - flakes and
angel veggie formula cubes. In the meantime I'll try to bring up
the salinity a bit. I also have an external charcoal filter and
airstone going all the time. I could add a power head if you think that
would help. <And do read here re others experiences with vitamins
and other nutritive supplements:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nutrdisf.htm Bob Fenner>
Update: Dips Help have now done 2, 20% water
changes, as water tests revealed slightly elevated ammonia. last night
the little guy looked better a little more active and had some dinner,
this morning he ate again but did reveal some white spots on his body.
(2d change). local pet shop who did the water tests suggested 2 hour
bath for clown and tang with mix of quick cure and Furacyn. my reading
of your comments including clown articles is that you dislike
chemicals. what do you think ? stay with water changes? salinity 1018
temp 78 <Worth trying, doing both. Bob Fenner>
Sterilization & Freshwater Dips Bob,
<Steven Pro in this evening.> I have a few more questions on
sterilizations and dips: 1) How much sodium thiosulfate is needed to
neutralize bleach that is in a tap water solution ( 1 cup of bleach (
the bleach is a 6% sodium hypochlorite solution - 'Ultra Clorox
regular bleach') per gallon of tapwater). (I would like to use the
bleach to 'sterilize' quarantine tanks after they've been
used.) <First drain out the bleach and water solution. Then add
tapwater and four times the recommended amount of De-Chlor should do
it.> 2) Can a fresh water dip be made less 'shocking' to the
fish by making it slightly saline (say 1.008 SG?) while still retaining
the beneficial parasite killing effect of the dip? <Not really.
Freshwater dips are not that shocking if performed properly. They are
just shocking to the owners.> If so, what is the highest SG that can
be used - and how long should the dip be? Are there other things that
can be done to the FW dip to make it less shocking to the fish while
retaining its beneficial qualities (other than adjusting ph and temp)?
<For the above questions, see the previous answer.> Do you know
of any aquaculture research into the effective kill rate of varying
SG's/durations against the common saltwater fish disease/pathogens?
<I have several excellent works on marine fish diseases, but they
have conflicting times listed. Andrews, Dr. Chris, Adrian Exell, and
Dr. Neville Carrington. 1988. The Manual of Fish Health. Blacksburg,
VA: Tetra Press. Bassleer, Gerald. 1996. Diseases in Marine Aquarium
Fish: Causes, Symptoms, Treatment. Westmeerbeek, Belgium: Bassleer
Biofish. Gratzek, Dr. John B., Dr. Richard E. Wolke, Dr. Emmett B.
Shotts Jr., Dr. Donald Dawe, and George C. Blasiola. 1992. Aquariology:
Fish Diseases & Water Chemistry. Blacksburg, VA: Tetra Press.
Untergasser, Dieter. 1989. Handbook of Fish Diseases. Neptune, NJ: TFH
Publications. The above are all good books.> 3) When receiving fish
from a mail-order company that does NOT use an ammonia neutralizer in
its shipping water, should a person add some to the shipping water
immediately after opening the bag, or would this be harder on the fish
than NOT adding ammonia neutralizer. (I'm using an ammonia
neutralizer that does NOT affect the pH). I'm assuming that opening
the bag raises the PH in the water, making any ammonia in it much more
toxic. <Read here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimat.htm> 4)
same question as #3, except in this case, its for invertebrates.
<Same as above with this added reading
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/acclimcoralslight.htm> 5) where can I
find a definitive list of maximum recommended FW dip durations for the
general species of marine fish sold in the trade? <I do not know of
one source complying them all.> (I know some species can't
tolerate a 10 minute dip, but other than a few warnings in your FAQs on
specific species, I've never seen a definitive list). <No set
number will or could be your guide. You must observe the fish closely
to signs of problems regardless of species.> 6) Lastly, when
receiving mail order fish, is it beneficial to fish get the fish to
recover from the shipping process prior to doing the Fw dip (i.e., temp
acclimate them, then slowly adjust their PH/salinity to their
quarantine parameters over 30 minutes, and then put them in the
quarantine tank for several days to allow them to stabilize before
giving them a FW dip. Then put them in the FW dip and move them to a
new quarantine tank)? <Put them in the quarantine tank first then
dip upon transfer.> If so, how many days should the fish be given
before giving them the FW dip. (This 'recovery period' seems
reasonable to me, but I've never seen anyone mention it).
<Standard to wait at least two weeks before moving the fish with
four being better. You can dip as part of a treatment program the next
day.> I realize I'm hitting you with a lot of questions on dips,
but I'm trying to come up with the best acclimation/receiving
process possible. Thanks! <One final thought. Any fish that does not
make it through a FW dip was probably not going to make it anyhow.
-Steven Pro>
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