Cherub angel and Black and White clown, Aggression 1/4/08
Hi-
<Hello>
First off, I'm very concerned about my fish health because of a mean cherub, however I love both. I have a 46 gal bow tank and I have had a pink and blue spot goby and the cherub angel for 7 + months. Well recently I added a
black and white clown and the cherub will not leave him alone. I've tried all day to catch the angel and I finally have. My question is really if I keep him in qt for a week or so will he lose his dominance or do I have to get rid of him?
Thanks,
Aly
<Sometimes this break will help, sometimes it won't, really depends on the individual fish, but definitely worth a shot. You might also want to try reaquascaping the tank, this can help is some cases as well.>
<Chris>

Centropyge aurantonotus, sel.  6/5/08
Hello crew -
<Jim>
I have been researching various Centropyge species and was hoping for a clarification on your recommendations regarding the C. aurantonotus (Brazilian Flameback angel). In reading The Conscientious Marine Aquarist, Mr. Fenner seemed wary of the species survival rates through the collection and transport processes. Browsing through WWM though has turned up a fair number of recommendations of the C. aurantonotus, with notes of it being a hardy species. Have collection methods changed since publication of the book, making this species a good choice? Or have I misinterpreted what I read in one of the sources?
<The survival of this miniature beauty has indeed changed for the better since my penning CMA (now in a new edition... but the first was done 12/95... Seems like a while back now>
As background, I would like to purchase 3 juvenile dwarf angels to keep as a trio in our tank. I have read that the Flameback angel is a decent option for this, triggering this query - although I'm not sure I'll have much luck finding juveniles on the market.
Thanks for your insight,
Jim
<Will be a spectacular display am sure... ever active, colorful... Cheers! Bob Fenner>

Cherub Angelfish Question   1/3/08
Good evening WWM Crew,
<AM here now... but welcome!>
I have a quick stocking question. I am looking to add a Cherub Angel (Centropyge argi ) to my tank, but am a bit concerned about this fish getting along with my current inhabitants. Here is the setup:
-55 gallon tank
-Aqua C Remora skimmer
-about 50 lbs or so Live Rock
-Whisper 60 with Carbon and PolyFilter
-Assorted Powerheads
-10% water change every 1-2 weeks
-1 inch sand bed
-Lots of Coralline Alg.
-Power Compact lighting
Livestock:
1) 2.5 inch Salarias ramosus (Starry Blenny)
2) (2) 1.5 inch Amphiprion ocellaris (Ocellaris Clowns)
3) 1 inch Chrysiptera parasema (Yellow Tail Damsel) (who surprisingly has not shown any aggression at all, yet)
4.) 1.5 inch Elacatinus oceanops (Neon Goby) (becoming one of my favorites)
5.) 2.5-3inch Monodactylus argenteus (Mono) ( …I realize will outgrow the tank, but this fish has a much larger home awaiting)
Inverts:
-About 10 Calcinus laevimanus
-About 5 Paguristes cadenati
-3 Turbo sp. And a few smaller snails
-1 Ophiocoma erinaceus – Black Brittle Star
Corals/Polyps:
-Caulastrea curvata
-Pachyclavularia sp
-Protopalythoa sp
-Xenia sp.
I would also like to add some more LPS (probably Trachyphyllia geoffroy) and also Ricordea florida to my tank eventually.
There is a Cherub Angel (looks great, but a bit small at just under 1inch)
<Don't get all that much larger...>
at the LFS, and I’m looking to add this amazing fish to my setup. With my current Livestock, do you think this will be overcrowded?
<The Damsel may go after it initially, but if placed during the earlier AM, I give you/it good chances of getting along fine here>
Is there a large probability the fish will nip at/damage my Corals/Polyps/etc?
<Very small>
I have read much and it seems like this will be fine, however I’m not sure about the last part of my question. Much conflicting opinions on the web (as always, with this hobby) about their being prone to nip. I will keep reading, of course.
Thank you kindly for your help!
Eric
<Thank you for sharing Eric. Bob Fenner>

Re: New Tank Setup and Trigger Selection... Now Centropyge comp., incl. argi  12/29/07
Hi Dr. Fenner,
<Ummm, just Bob please. I have no doctorate>
Thanks for the info. Your response about the Cherub concerns me.
What is your opinion of adding the Cherub to the new 215g tank with a 2.5" Coral Beauty (at the same time)?
<This dwarf dwarf Centropyge should be fine in this size setting>
I've searched your site but couldn't find this exact match. I've even thought about putting the Cherub in my 65 gallon sump.
I really appreciate all the support your team provides online.
Thanks in advance,
Nancy
<Welcome! BobF>

Sick angel... C. argi  10/16/07
HI,
I have a 55 gallon tank with two O. clowns, one yellow goby, one royal Gramma, and a cherub angel. About a week ago, the angel stopped eating, and his fins became ragged and frayed looking.
<Mmm, maybe the Gramma...>
I put him in quarantine, where I noticed one of his eyes was bulging. I have been searching and asking everywhere for help, and a few sources said he has fin and tail rot and to treat him with Maracyn.
<Mmm, no>
However, I do not think that is what he has. His eye bulged for only one day, but is now back to normal. I am almost certain he is blind, He swims in circles all day long occasionally bumping into things, and he will not eat at all. I have tried holding food right up to him but I get no response. He has not eaten in almost 7 days, and I am really worried about him. Should I use the Maracyn? I don't think it will help, but I just don't know
Charlene
<Does the system afford sufficient dark areas for this little Centropyge to get out of the light? What foods, supplements have you been offering? If this fish is still feeding, I would try Selcon, and Spectrum pelleted food of sufficiently small diameter. Bob Fenner>

Re: sick angel, blind C. argi  10/16/07
Hi,
Thank you for responding to me! I submitted the question about my sick Cherub, who I think is blind. The main system is set up with about 30 pounds of live rock, with some pieces of base rock arranged so there is many crooks, crannies, and caves. The angel really loved swimming through them, and the tank is taller rather then wider. I have been feeding him a variety of Mysis shrimp, pygmy angel formula from ocean nutrition, frozen emerald entree, and ocean nutrition green marine algae, which I would hang on the wall. Now that he is in quarantine, he is not eating at all, at least that I have seen. It has been 13 days now that I have last seen him eat. He swims from one side of the tank to the other almost without stop until the lights go out and then he goes over to one corner and turns almost completely white in color. I have added nothing to the hospital tank but vitamins (vita chem) and a little bit of Entice to his food (which has no effect) I have also been doing bi-weekly, small water changes to keep the water quality clean. Ph- 8.4, nitrates-o nitrites-o temp 78 SG 1.023 Is there anything else I can do for my little fish?
<Mmm, perhaps a deficiency syndrome still...>
Thank you, Charlene
(do fish ever regain lost eyesight?)
<Yes. Do keep trying the supplementation to foods. Bob Fenner>

Flameback angel... Angels crowded tog. period   5/24/07
Dear Crew
I have a question for you all, Firstly I will introduce my stock. 100 gallon, lots of rock, 2years, 3 flame angel, 1 blue face (medium), 1 regal angel (medium)
<These Angelfishes need much more room>
and 2 clownfish (small) with anemone
<Species?>
Saturday last week I add 1 flameback angel (the same size like the flame angel) ... (you can called me crazy if you want),
<Not crazy perhaps, but reckless>
and  I arrange the rock on the left side, I shut off the light and put it in my aquarium. Note: In the fish shop, the flameback wants to eat (live shrimp/rebon). After I put the flameback, I never saw the flame or the other fishes chase the flameback until now and vice versa, but seems the flameback did not want to swim (hides a lot)
<What this species, C. aurontonotus I take it, does in the wild...>
and Tuesday I introduce again the live shrimp, he wants to eat but only a small amount. And then up to now he never show up again
So what do you think, the flameback will survive or not?
<There are more important issues going on in this small volume...>
Do you think the flameback is still alive, or should I rip apart my aquarium now to save the flameback?
<Mmm, no need... if it is dead, it will likely dissolve w/o your detection... If it is alive...>
(note: I read your article in WWM regarding the pygmy "pygmy angel" and I think those species should be aggressive... ... no?)
<Minimally... as befits their diminutive size>
Thanks for the advice
Best regards
Ignatio
<Ignatio... you have too many incompatible Angels here... and need at least more space... Bob Fenner>

Cherub Addition...yes, no...maybe?  – 5/1/07
Hello!
<Hi.>
I wanted to write because I have been receiving some conflicting information. 
<Okay, lets see what I can do.>
I have a 35g tank that I have had running for 3 yrs now.  About 6 months ago while I was out of town for an extended period it crashed while a friend was caring for it. 
<Not uncommon for an aquarium disaster to happen while it is in the care of another, other than the owner...I've got one myself.>
I have been slowly re-stocking it. 
<Yes patience is key in this hobby, if you ever find anyone who sells it let me know.>
I have a CBS, percula clown, Banggai cardinal, and a flame hawkfish.  I am pretty sure that I am at capacity. 
<For a 35 gallon tank, yes, I'm inclined to agree.>
I had originally wanted a cherub as my final addition, but went with the hawkfish because it was so interesting/entertaining.  My LFS dealer says I still have room for a cherub.
<I bet he does...>
  Everyone is doing well with very little squabbling...except the CBS seems to be aggressive toward everyone (he was the only organism to survive the original die off).  What do you think.
<I think you have a functioning and stable aquarium...and I would leave it that way. Good luck my friend.>
Thanks!
<Anytime, Adam J.>

African Flameback Angel Aggression. - 2/28/07
<Hey John, JustinN with you today.>
I have a 90 gallon tank with 100 lbs of LR, eventually to become a SPS reef tank.
<Ok>
I have a pair of black onyx Percula's, Mystery Wrasse and a C. lineatus in my tank.
<Sounds lovely>
I eventually would like to add a Pygmy African Flameback to the tank. Would the Flameback be too aggressive for the other fish I already have?
<Mm, I don't think so.. I think the amount of space you provide, along with all of your live rock, will be plenty here.>
I also know that there is a small risk of adding a Flameback to a reef tank.
<Yes, and as you're aware I'll leave the soapbox at home this time *grin*>
Thanks, John
<Hope this helps you, John! -JustinN>

Group of 5 Cherub Angelfish (c. argi) in a 225g Potential for Conflict   2/6/07
Hi all,
<Hi Rebecca, Mich with you.>
I had my LFS order five cherub (c. argi) angelfish for my 225g reef tank.  A good friend and fish guru told me that the argi can be put into a larger display tank as a group without any problem.  
<Mmm, don't think I would go so far as to say without a problem.> <<Actually... in such a size volume... have seen more than this number in a group in the wild. RMF>>
The LFS called to tell me that the fish arrived and are spectacular but when put in his QT tank, they started fighting with each other.  He had to separate them or they would have killed each other.  The LFS will QT them for me but I am concerned that they may fight in the main tank, once I put them in.  Is the larger display tank going to make the difference so they don't fight?  Any advice or experience on how I can acclimate them into my main display tank so they don't beat each other up and stress out the rest of my fish.
<These fish can have quite a bit of attitude.  A male and two or more females can typically be kept as a group as long as they are introduced at the same time to a tank of at least 50 gallons.  However, two males housed in the same aquarium will often fight to the death.  I am unaware of anyway of determining sex by gross examination.>
Thanks so much.
<You're welcome!  Good luck!  -Mich>
Rebecca

Re: Group of 5 Cherub Angelfish (c. argi) in a 225g Potential for Conflict   2/6/07
Mich, thanks for your response.
<You're welcome Rebecca.>
Does the size of the fish help in determining the sex?  
<No, I have found no references of the sort.  Also note, these fish are dioecism.  Meaning that the sexes are separate and will not change as is possible in other fish such as clownfish which are protandry (start as male and can evolve into females ...many possible jokes here!>  
Also, you would not suggest having four females with one male?  
<No, one male with four females should be fine.  Two males in a tank would likely be a problem.  Let us know how all works out.  
-Mich>  
Rebecca

C. argi System Size Requirements?
Hello, <Hi, Ryan with you today> I have tried looking through all of your information but cannot seem to find the answer. <No problem> I was wondering what your opinion is of putting a pair of Cherub Pygmy angels (Centropyge argi)  together in a 55G tank, I have read different information concerning
this specific species and introducing them as pairs. <I have had no issues with this combination in the past.  They can, however, be a little nippy with some LPS.  Good luck, Ryan>
Thanks for all of your help.  

Centropyge argi in a 20H - 2/26/2006
Would one of these guys be healthy and happy in a 20H?  The only other fish would be a black ocellaris or a true percula.  The tank would have lots of hiding places because of live rock and a little bit of filamentous algae for him to munch on.
<<I wouldn't do it.  Too small of a system for adequate grazing, lateral movement, and living room.>>
Thanks for the help today and in the past.
<<Glad to help.  Lisa.>>
Best regards,
Travis

Cherub Angel (Centropyge argi) Question
>I'm back... I recently wrote in asking about compatibility of a six line wrasse with the rest of my inhabitants. I've decided not to go with the wrasse.  Current 29g tank residents include: 2 false Percs, 1 blood shrimp, 1 cleaner shrimp, 1 peppermint shrimp, 3 hermits, and 1 turbo snail. Had a yellowtail damsel who didn't make the transfer from the QTank to the display due to my
screw-up of some kind.  Anyway. I plan on getting a strawberry Dottyback to go in the tank also.
>>I would say that your system has pretty much hit its max bioload level.  One has to account for ultimate adult sizes of animals held within, and the ocellaris clowns can get around 3", sometimes larger.  The Dottyback can become a wee bit aggressive, too.  Consider instead something that will remain relatively small, neon gobies, perhaps.  However, you've said the magic words, QTank!  Good on ya, and keep it up (30 day minimum, please!).
>Kids are upset about the demise of the yellowtail. I wasn't going to replace him but now feel I need to.
>>I understand this feeling, but please don't give in, as it may likely simply lead to more deaths, and more "upsetness".  Also, consider that the bulk of these animals are wild caught, and there are very real ethical issues in replacing fish in such a way.  If you can, wait until you get a larger system that will be more stable.  
>We were at the LFS today and saw the Cherub Pygmy Dwarf Angel.  I know that they stay small and I was wondering if he would work in my tank?  If yes, should he be added before, after, or at same time as Dottyback?  I also want a yellow tang eventually. (I know my current system is too small for him.)
What I want to be able to do is to take the 29g residents and put them in the larger system when I get it.
>>Then I strongly suggest you wait until you actually get that system.  It's best not to add too many fish at once, *especially* when you're running such a small setup.  The dwarf is compatible with the clowns, the Dottyback, the tang, and the neon gobies, but will RULE the 29 gallon.  If you take that list of fishes and put them into a 60 gallon, that would be best, adding NO more fish.  
>Will the pygmy be able to co-exist with the tang then or not at all? I posted this on the forums but wasn't really getting my question answered.  Was told that my tank should be a year old
before I get the pygmy and that it is a touchy fish and I should be worried about new tank syndrome.
>>No, this would be among the better of the angels for beginners, but it is PUGNACIOUS, as I said.  That would make him a candidate to be added last.  I think what the folks on the forum may have been trying to convey (without actually reading the posts) is that your system is soon to be overstocked.  Also, consider instead of the Dottyback something more peaceable like a royal Gramma.  
>I'm getting so confused now because all I've read about the cherub says it is an excellent hardy angel for a beginner.
>>It is.  But please don't place it into a tank of this size, it could very well begin harassing the poor clowns terribly.
>I want to know if the Cherub will work in my current tank and later be compatible with a yellow tang.
>>In my opinion, if you get the new tank and it's going to be around 75 gallons or more, then absolutely it will get along just fine with the tang, and the tang will be fine in that size tank for quite a while (though they really need horizontal space for swimming room).  
>Also, I am considering, do not have at moment, getting some mushrooms or polyps.  Will the cherub destroy these?  If yes, then they are not necessary to have. I'd rather have the fish.
>>You know, with angels it tends to be hit or miss.  The real victims tend to be clams, soft corals (not Corallimorphs or zoanthids), and LPS (large polyp stony) corals.
>Thanks for your help! Carla
>>I hope you do find my suggestions helpful, I know it's not exactly what you may have been looking to glean.  Marina

Stocking Order and Territorial Flameback Pygmy Angel 10/11/05
Dear Crew,
<Hello>
I appreciate that there is much relevant information on your website but I would be most grateful if you could please spell it out for me - apologies in advance for taking up your time. I have a 55 gal FOWLR system, with 66lbs of live rock. I use a Fluval 304 for mechanical filtration, a Red Sea Prizm skimmer and two MaxiJet 600 powerheads for circulation.
In the aquarium I currently have 2 mated percula clownfish, 1 mandarin dragonet (who thankfully is happy to eat frozen food) and a Flameback pygmy angel. Unfortunately the pygmy angel has become unsurprisingly territorial.
<Mmm, is surprising>
I recently tried to add 2 cardinal fish but these were chased by the pygmy angel until I had to return the surviving one to the LFS where I had bought him. I subsequently tried introducing a lemon peel pygmy angel,
<This tank is too small for two Centropyge species>
taking in part the advice from your site to rearrange the rocks into two distinct piles and removed the Flameback for a couple of days into the QT tank to allow the lemon peel to establish himself but again he did not survive.
<Good techniques>
My question therefore, is whether there are any fish that you could recommend to me, in particular, fish that will be strong enough to not be affected by the behaviour of the Flameback but at the same time gentle enough not to frighten my dragonet (of whom I am incredibly fond!). I read on the saltwater.about.com website that a yellow and a Naso tang might be possible contenders?
<Maybe a smaller Zebrasoma species, not a Naso... your tank is too small>
I appreciate that I will in a few years need to buy a larger aquarium to accommodate the Naso. Or do you recommend that I remove the Flameback and return him to the LFS (although he is all but impossible to catch without removing all the LR from the tank).
<I would look into other species that are found in this fish's range (use fishbase.org here) that are also available in the ornamental trade... some of the small basses, Hypoplectrus... come to mind, as well as some of the smaller labrids from the area>
Thank you so much for all your help and assistance!
Kindest Regards,
Tim Kroemer
<Bob Fenner>

Cherub pygmy angel  9/17/05
Hi WWM crew.  I have been reading through your site looking for information about the cherub angel, but I cannot find a good answer to my question, so here it goes.  I have a 28 gallon that has a false percula clown, purple firefish, neon goby, and a shrimp.  I have a Millennium 3,000 running with an AquaC Remora Pro, 20lbs of live sand, and plenty of live rock.  I want to add a small fish that will swim quite a bit (as the firefish and goby do not) if possible.  I have been unsure of what I can add that will be peaceful and get along with the other fish.  Someone at an LFS told me that the Cherub pygmy would be good, but it seems that they can be very aggressive to other tankmates.  Would this be a good fish to add?
<Amongst one of the best for the size, mix you have>
Or do you have any suggestions regarding something else that might be better?  Thanks so much for your time and the great website.
~Jocelyn
<If anything the Percula might go after the argi... but with lots of rock, spaces... Bob Fenner>

A Perfect Angel For A Small World!
Hello WWM Crew!
Want to thank Scott F for the previous advice.  Very helpful.  Today, I assure you, will be a quick question.
<Glad that you found it useful- I'm back with you tonight!>
My 25 gal tank is cycled with 25 pounds Tonga Live rock, 40 lbs sugar fine live sand.  Eclipse hood filtration, 2 power heads and a CPR skimmer 2r producing 1/2 cup a day tea-coffee colored waste.
<You know that I love to hear THAT!>  
Current Bio-Load:
1 Lysmata amboinensis
1 Lysmata debelius
1 Mithrax Crab (LR Hitchhiker)
5 Miniature Blue legged Reef hermits.
3 small Red sea snails
My initial stocking list included the above and a flame wrasse/flasher wrasse.  Would also adding a small pygmy angel in time be overdoing it?  I want to keep this tank under stocked and healthy as possible. Thanks again! Ryan Bowen San Francisco, CA  
<I think that you nailed it, Ryan...You're right about where you'd want to be, in terms of fishes, in this sized tank. As far as the pygmy angel, you could go for the "Cherub Angel"( C. argi), the "Flameback Angel" (C. aurontonotus), or, if you are a Pacific kind of guy, like me- a good small choice would be C. fisheri or C. flavicauda. All of these are small, very adaptable, and have interesting behaviours and color patterns. I'd let the tank become established for a while before adding the angel, as it will need some microfauna and algae to pick at to help supplement it's diet. Other than that- just provide common sense care and you'll enjoy these fish for many years to come! Good luck! ScottF>

Centropyge mixing 7/20/03
Crew:
I have read that mixing Centropyge species in the same tank is a no-no, but I just have to ask about a specific combination.  I am interested in the Flame Angel (C. loricula) primarily.  In addition to that, I was hoping I could get away with the Cherub Angel (C. argi).  My thinking is that their different sizes and colors would make it okay to have them both in a 55 gallon (48" long).  I appreciate your time.  Rich
<with so many beautiful fish in the sea... I wonder/advise - "why tempt fate" by mixing congeners, conspecifics or other fishes likely to fight/compete. In this case, I will admit that you have a better chance of it working than with other Centropyge... but again, why tempt fate? My advice is to select only one. Kind regards, Anthony>

Centropyge mixing Follow-up 7/21/03
Anthony: I appreciate your reply to my Centropyge question.  
<always welcome my friend>
A summary: you basically said C. loricula and C. argi may work together in my 55, but "why tempt fate" when there are so many other fish in the sea.  
<correct :) >
A follow-up, if I may: I recently returned my last remaining Damsel, the Azure Demoiselle (Chrysiptera hemicyanea - seen here (my picture) after Bob identified him for me a few weeks ago:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/chrysipterafaqs.htm ) to LFS after 43 weeks(!) in display because he got a little chippy towards
others,
<heehee... cheeky monkey>
maybe when he realized he was the eldest occupant after the other damsel returns (sorry, the damsels were used for cycling before I found your site - none died in my care by the way - please be gentle :D).  
<no worries... quite common to do>
I was looking at the C. argi as a "blue-to-purple-and-yellow-small-when-grown-up" replacement for that beautiful damsel I had (*sniff*). I have been leafing through my Marine Fishes by Scott W. Michael, but I can't seem to find anything suitable.  I was hoping something would leap to your mind, relating to the fish of course! (hey, I can dream, right?).  Also, can you recommend
a marine-fish-suitability reference larger than Mr. Michael's?  Thanks again and again for your guidance, Rich.
<absolutely... fishbase.org  It is the largest reference any of us are likely to find, and its free on the web. Search by common name or scientific when know. Or pick a genus that you are favoring and follow the links to all of its species for a browse. Note that there is a link for more pics on each individual page as well as links for diet, reproduction, distribution, etc. Best of luck! Anthony>

Centropyge mixing Follow-up II 7/21/03  
Anthony: Wow, that must be the speed reply record!  
<they don't call me Sir Speedy for nothing. Erhhhh... on second thought, don't spread that one around.>
I first thought it bounced back.
<we do try to reply to all within 24 hours here... some days/weeks(!) are busier than others>
As far as the reference goes, I was hoping for a book I could leaf through, as well as proudly display on my bookshelf.  Anything on that order?
<nothing so much on all fishes collectively. It would really be a monumental endeavor. Its best to focus on titles that feature families and groups. Helmut Debelius has produced some outstanding books in this manner. Very handsome production. Of course... there is our volume two coming soon ;) Reef Fishes <G>>
Thanks, Rich.
Ps: Reef Invertebrates book is AWESOME - don't tell me how it ends, I am not done yet ;)!
<Ha! Happy reading... and hoping the book makes it out of the lavatory without color changes to the images. Anthony>