Question regarding sexing Centropyge loricula  12/19/07
Hi WWM Crew,
<Tony>
I've been reading through the WWM.com pages on Flame angels (the article and the FAQ pages) in an effort to educate myself on how to discern gender on this fish.
<Can be done...>
On a couple occasions I note the comment that if checking a good reference that the differences will be obvious. Can you recommend any good references I could look for? Thanks!
<Mmm, am out visiting in FLA for a week (away from my books)... Maybe the more recent Angel and Butterfly book by Allen and Steene... and Scott Michael's work on the same families>
Also, I'm a little confused regarding the amount of blue on the unpaired fins. I think I've now read both that 1) it is not present at all in females, or 2) it is present but to a lesser degree. I've also read some conflicting info regarding the length of the unpaired fins (ie. longer in males versus longer in females).
<I have seen degrees of both in all areas of distribution of the Flame I've dived in... IS not easy to discern however... w/o specimens of both sexes present to compare... for sure>
If I'm looking at two fish right now, that are both approximately 1.5" in size (ie. fairly small, compared to what I've usually seen landed at LFS's), but both have blue to some degree (one definitely has more blue than the other), how likely is it that they are both male at this size? Note, I can try to get some pictures of the fish in question, if you have time to look at pictures.
<Oh! These small individuals are sexually undifferentiated as yet... Will become females at about 3-3.5" overall length... a bit larger for male/s... Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Thanks very much,
-- Tony Slotboom

Mysterious Miniature Marine Life! 8/20/05
Hi Scott, thanks for always replying so far.
<Glad to be of service.>
A few days ago, I found "fry" (actually I don't know what it was ). I don't know where it came from. the color is black with head is bigger than tail just like baby frog before metamorphosis, around 7 mm) 3mm. Now they are hiding in my PVC pipe in the left side of my refugium. I know it is hard for you to imagine but I don't think it is a plankton, or baby shrimp, or baby brine shrimp. What do you think they are and where do they come from??
<Wow- your guess is as good as mine. They COULD be fish fry, or they could be some other larval form of life. Without pictures it's virtually impossible to guess.>
If they are fish fry, should I take them out and put them in the center of my refugium, because I it's full of plankton and Caulerpa for them to feed on.
<It probably cannot hurt. If these are young fish, they should have food sources available at all times.>
Well I'm not expecting too much on that actually, I read in Reef Culture Technology Hawaii and it is very difficult to raise the fry to become a fish.
<Well, some fishes are extremely difficult to rear from a larval phase, others are rather simple, if the proper foods are available.>
Note: my Flame Angels are fine, the conflicts are infrequent (I arranged a rock decor with plenty of cave to hide) and they want to eat after all. Thank you, Scott. Best regards
Ignatio
<Well, it certainly is good to hear that your Angels are getting along. Who knows...one day we may be talking about a spawning event in your tank! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Sexing Flames
Thanks for replying. Anyway, how do you differentiate between male and female
flame angels? The one I intend to get is from Hawaiian and don't think the guys
from the shop knows how to differentiate. Please describe in details.
Thanks a lot.
>>
Hmm, a little hard to describe... but unmistakable once you see both a male and female: the rear portions of the unpaired fins (dorsal and anal) are much more blue streaked in the males... Take a look in a reference work...
Bob Fenner

Sexual dichromatism in Flames
Hi Bob. Two questions for you.
1) You mentioned in your last email that the unpaired fins of the male flame
angel are much blue streaked than the female. How about much sharper end tip
of the unpaired fins of the male as compared to the female. How true is this.
2) Certain portions of my leather mushroom are turning yellow. Any clues to
this? (The rest of my corals and fishes are doing fine)
Thanks a lot.
>>
Better, larger specimens of Centropyge loricula males have discernibly larger, longer unpaired (dorsal, anal) fins... but females that are in better shape can have ones that are even longer... If they're about the same age (oh boy) the males are quite smaller... and females from the same area and age will be more orange on their sides... But, once again, you can't tell how old, or where (generally) yours are hailing from... Take a look at a number of them in books and in person... you'll see the difference relative to the blue markings...
The color on your leather may be nothing... but I would check your water quality, especially alkalinity... it may be drifting low.
Bob Fenner

Flame Angel
I just have a quick question about flame angels. I have seen some that have blue on their back fins and tails, and I was wondering what the blue meant?
<It is the difference between males and females, the males having the blue.>
Is it dependent on sex or locale, or is it just something that some of them get? Thanks for your help! Sorry I didn't address this to anyone, but I didn't know who would be reading it and didn't want to offend anyone!
<No worries my friend. In the future, feel free to address it to the WWM crew. -Steven Pro>

Centropyge Pairing and LFS Scrutiny - Unwarranted 8/7/03
Crew:
<person>
I was at my LFS today, and they were selling 2 Flame Angels (C. loricula) as a "pair".  Don't they change sexes as needed or something?
<not exactly... they can/do change sex and will do so one way and once generally (unlike Clownfishes/other). They are also somewhat easy to sex. Most collected/seen in the trade are males. Females are very conspicuous with a washed out red/orange/citron flank with fewer and less wide dark vertical bars other flanks... as well as diminished purple bars on the anal fin. Other features too>
Is this pairing a ploy, or would you suppose they arrived "fin in fin"?
<neither. Someone late in the chain of custody had a good eye for sexing them and attempted a match that worked (they are often intolerant)>
Also, as far as I have read, rearing this species to adulthood has proven elusive, so what gives?  
<they have been successfully reared in HI>
I doubt they would ask if I was an expert trying to rear the young, and then tell me that it's hardly ever been done.
<you are completely mistaken here my friend... they were only trying to sell a sexed and compatible pair... a sexed pair was promised... not a breeding pair, no?>
Perhaps if I have more time next time, I will grill the folks down there about it.  
<relax mate>
That brings me to another subject:  Understanding that my LFS is
a business, how much scrutiny does one give before disqualifying a place entirely?  
<relative to your personal/moral philosophy>
I sometimes feel that they should not be selling certain
livestock, like anemones (at least 6 different looking ones - they can't all be hardy), Pipefishes, etc.  
<but do they serve the greater good overall? Do consider... and again, do relax>
Maybe it is late at night and it is just me,
<perhaps.. or maybe its the champagne and Pez candies talking>
but I sometimes shake my head at some things, like a tang with a mouth problem that is doomed, and it's on sale.  
<offered at a discount to someone who cares to help it is empathetic, if that's their intent>
I wouldn't exactly label it as underhanded, I mean you have to know that something is on sale for a reason, right (or at least ask)?  Thanks for reading.  Rich
<Rich... you just may have more conspiracy theories than even I do. You calm me. Seek peace my friend. And seek pees. Anthony>