Stocking/Flame Angel   7/22/06
Hi All,
<Hello Amanda>
WWM is the first place I go for all my questions, but after doing the requisite reading on your site, others, and the books I've got (love 'The Conscientious Marine Aquarist'!), I don't feel quite comfortable making this decision.
My 50 gallon tank is currently stocked with 2 perculas, 1 yellow watchman goby, 2 cleaner shrimp, and lots of various hermits and snails. I've also got a happy healthy brain, torch, and hammer corals spread out in the tank, but that's it for corals, besides the copious mushroom population which has been expanding lately. Everyone is living peacefully, which is my goal - fairly light stocking of a happy tank. The cleaner shrimp regularly groom the clowns and release their fry like clockwork for the rest of the tank to snack on.
Here's the question; a friend of mine is leaving the country and so is looking to give away his fish. I've always thought the tank would be
complete with a Flame Angel, and he just so happens to have one that he's offering up free. I've been trying to decide if the tank is big enough to give him swimming room, and if my fairly territorial goby will leave his potential new tankmate alone. He's fine with the clowns, but they stay away from his cave since he'll chase them out if they don't. This Flame lived in a tank with a hammer before and 'pretty much' left it alone, so I'm not terribly concerned about that, but I am concerned he won't have room to swim and be happy. His first home was a 10g nano for about 4 months when he was first received, but he's been in a 150 for the last few months.
I'd love this fish to complete the tank, but I'm not sure if he'll do well.
Any advice you can offer would be appreciated!
<Your new Flame Angel will be just fine in that environment.  He too, will learn to stay away from the cave.  James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks as always,
<You're welcome.>
Amanda

Stocking a 55g Saltwater Tank - II  Flame Angel sel. - 06/02/2006
Sabrina,
Hate to burst your bubble
<It's happened before, no worries.>
but they do sell tank-bred flame angelfish at LiveAquaria.com. If you don't trust me visit this site at http://liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=1644&N=0.
<Yup, Bob corrected me on this as well.  All the same, do please consider a Flameback or cherub....  A flame, tank bred or otherwise, will ultimately not do so well in a 55.>
Next time you tell someone that something doesn't exist, make sure you have proof!!!
<Mm, not logical to do so....  good examples being deities and imaginary heroes like Santa Claus....  More accurately, when you tell someone that something doesn't exist, make sure THEY don't have proof of the opposite (grin).>
Oh and yes aquacon.com doesn't have tank-bred hippo tangs, they have tank-raised ones. You're finally right for ONCE!
<Not the first time, nor the last time, that I will be wrong (or right) on something, I assure you.>
LOL! No hard feelings.
Jeff R.
<-Sabrina>

Stocking/Compatibility...55 Gallon Tank  - 05/19/2006
I am planning a 55 gallon aquarium and I want to have 2 tank-bred ocellaris clowns, 1 royal Gramma, 1 yellow tang, and 1 flame angelfish. <These fish do not acclimate well in new systems.  Do wait four or five months before considering the Flame Angel.  The other option would be to purchase a tank raised Flame Angel which will do much better, but their high cost ($90.00) may be an issue with you.> I also want to have 2 feather dusters, 1 bubble tip anemone, <Anemones not recommended with non-immune fish> 2 scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp, and 30 super Tongan Nassarius snails. Do I have too many snails or do I need more? <I think 20 would be plenty.> Please give me an exact number I need. Will my fish get together well? <Tank will be too small for the tang and do not recommend purchasing tangs this small (one inch, as you mention later)...can be difficult to acclimate.> Am I planning for disaster? All fish when bought will be 1 inch in length and QTed. There will also be 100 pounds of live sand and 50 pounds of live rock. My 55 will also have a bio-wheel (400gph), 3 power heads (each 270gph), a protein skimmer filtering up to a 100 gallon, a 260 watt power compact light, and a 200 watt heater.
<Other than the above, all looks well.>
Thanks for answering all my questions,
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
  Aqua Man

A Gathering of Angels (Flame Angel Group) 8/3/05
I'm planning to remove all of my present fish and run my tank fishless for 1 week.
<I'd go for a longer "fallow" period; more like 3-4 weeks, just to make sure that any possible diseases are eliminated as much as possible..>
After, I will buy 5 small Flame Angel juveniles and introduce them all at once. Do you think it will work?
<Well, a 100 gallon tank might be a bit smaller than you'd want for a group of this size. I think a trio might be better. even though these are juveniles that you are talking about, they still will require space and territory.>
You must be think that I'm crazy don't you
Thanks
Ignatio
<Actually- I admire your experimental spirit! I hope that you are successful! Just think of the long-term requirements of the fish, and I'm sure that you'll be successful! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

A Gathering of Angels (Pt. 2) 8/6/05
Dear Scott (sorry I just begin online by today because my server was damaged for 2 days)
<Hi there!>
I'm intending to breed the Flame Angel, so do you think only 3 of them can spawn?
<Yes...you can end up with a breeding situation with three specimens. They are protogynous hermaphrodites, which simply means that all of the ones who become males started life as females! In a group of Centropyge, once a dominant male arises, the remaining fishes will generally stay females!>
One thing again, I have read "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist" which mentioned that the brine shrimp can be a host for the Cryptocaryon irritans parasite. I cultured them and feed my Sea lilies with that! Is it true??
<Brine shrimp can harbor parasites which can affect marine fishes...>
Warm regards and thanks for your reply
Ignatio
<Best of luck to you on your efforts, Ignatio! Regards, Scott F.>

Re: Flame angel 8/20/05
Hi Mr. Scott, thanks for always replying so far.
A few days ago I found a fry (actually I don't know what was it), I don't know where does it come from around 6 (the color is black with head is bigger than tail just like baby frog before metamorphosis, around 7 mm) and around 3 with the white color/no
color 3mm. Now they are hiding in my PVC pipe in the left side of my refugium. I know it is hard for you to imagine but I don't think it is a plankton, or baby shrimp, or baby brine shrimp. What do you think it is?? and where does it come from?? If it is a
fish fry, should I take it out and put it in the center of my refugium because I have a full of plankton and Caulerpa in the center of refugium for them to feed. Well I'm not expecting too much on that actually, I read in Reef Culture Technology Hawaii and
it is very difficult to raise the fry to become a fish.
Note: my flame are fine, the conflict is small (I arrange a rock decor with plenty of cave to hide) and they want to eat after all.
Thank you Mr. Scott
Best regards
Ignatio

Tank Raised Flame Angels
Hello Bob,
<Rich>
I only but tank raised livestock mostly because I dive and really  
hate the thought of yanking these animals out of there natural  
environment for my hobby.  That being said I love having a aquarium  
and putting as much color and variety as possible with farm raised  
fish.  I was very excited about tank raised Flame Angels.  My  
question is what happened to them???  They where around for a brief  
time (I believe raised in Hawaii) and then puff, gone.  My searches  
have found nothing.  I would appreciate any info.  Thanks.
Cheers,
Rich
<Two things actually... the fellow producing them (Frank Baensch, in Hawai'i) likely found that other species were more profitable (e.g. interruptus), and secondly, the market just wasn't there for loriculas... due to their small size and high prices... Someday... Bob Fenner>

Fishy Prices, Greetings!
I truly enjoy your web site and the wealth of knowledge available. I only wish my brain could retain more. I was at the LFS perusing the stock and came across a Flame Angel (from Fr. Polynesia) that I was interested in until I saw the price. It was double of what of I had thought it should be. The owner said that prices on some fish are up due to the tsunami. I was wondering if you have any insight to the wholesale prices being affected by the tsunami or if the LFS is trying to fleece me. Thank you for sharing your expertise and your time. 
<Well I can tell you this, my LFS sells Flames at 39.00-49.00 depending on their origin. James (Salty Dog)>

What do you think? (Flame Angel, Cooks, Chip)
Hi Mr. Fenner
Once again I write you for your opinion. I read in your FAQs about
flame angels, not being great from the Christmas islands, and Marshall
islands in the last little while. But what about the Cook islands, My
LFS had three, and now has one left from there at the moment. It's been
at the store now for about three weeks, and is in great shape, and
active. 
<A great source location... only one source there... Chip and Claire Boyle... very qualified collectors, shippers... excellent quality>
I 've stopped by a few times to see how the little guy is doing,
and he's always been very active, in great looking shape, and very
attentive to his surroundings. I, like you, am in love with this
particular fish, and want one a lot, but I'm worried because I've had one
once before, and he didn't last more than two weeks after I got him
home. (Got a very bad case of Ick, and didn't quite pull through the
treatment), So I've been hesitant, and just keeping an eye on this guy
for a little while. I've gone over all of what you've written on your
site about the upkeep of these little beauties, and can't really think
of anything I did wrong with the last guy. I'm hesitant because they
aren't the cheapest, and also, and most important, I don't want to be
the cause of his demise. But as I said, I think they are just gorgeous
little fishes, and would really like to have one.
<I would buy a C. loricula from the Cooks w/o worry. Bob Fenner>

Recent flame angels
Hello. I have been hearing quite a few things about
flame angels recently. Especially ones from the
Christmas Islands. My friend has a flame that he has
had for about a month, and it has been eating good and
is quite robust and healthy. I forgot to ask him where
he got it from. Regardless of that however, is the 1
month in captivity in good health a good indicator of
a good specimen, 
<not out of the woods for certain but an excellent and reassuring sign>
even if it was collected from such places as the Christmas islands? I was wondering this because I hear some specimens from the x-mas islands
can be vary from good to bad. Thanks.
<all really an artifact of good versus bad handling in holding and transit. Do read about playing the "deposit" game with retailers here on WWM or in Bob's book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist. Do arrange to have a dealer hold a prospective fish (prepaid/deposit as necessary) for weeks if possible. This will dramatically improve you chance of success with this and any fish. You still must run a full QT period at home though (4 weeks recommended). Best regards, Anthony>

"A flame by any other name... would smell.... er, just smell."
I was thinking about purchasing a flame angel from LiveAquaria.com but I can't decide on where I want the specimen from. They have a choice from either Marshall Islands, Christmas Islands, or Cook Islands. I want a healthy specimen obviously, but I also want one that will be very vibrant in color and stand out. Which specimen would have the most vibrant coloration? One more question, I've heard that the Cook Islands only have once source of collectors (I forget the name) but now that LiveAquaria.com is getting them in from the Cook Islands could it still be possible that the same couple who collected those flame angels are still the only ones doing it? Because I read that there's only one source in the Cook Islands and they are qualified collectors, shippers and have excellent quality stock...Thanks! Steve
<The non-Hawaiian flame angels tend to be less red, more orange. Some have more purple. I personally prefer the Hawaiian flame angels to exclusion and have not preference on the other three locales re: coloration/morphs. The Hawaiian ones also ship better (handled well and shorter transit to California). If you are looking for "vibrant"... seek a Hawaiian flame :) Best regards, Anthony>

Question about Flame Angels
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 
Dear Bob,
<Hello Mary>
Hello! Hope you've had a great summer. Business is finally starting to pick up again, and I'm hoping for a very busy "busy season".
<Yay! Good riddance to the summer doldrums days, weeks, months of marine aquaria>
I have a question for you. In my never-ending battle to educate the public on cyanide, there is a person who is claiming that Flame angels are cyanide caught because you include the Philippines as part of their natural range in this article http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/loricula.htm
<Unusual (as in rare), but so from the region. As you know, most loricula are collected from the Marshall's.... though the species is found (inconsistently) from Australia to Hawai'i (the little male on the cover of CMA is a shot by Fred Bavendam in Hawaii...>
I have told them that Flames are rarely, if ever, exported from the Philippines (I've never seen them on a list) and that just because something has a "range" there that doesn't necessarily mean it is collected for the aquarium trade. 
<Well-stated, and agreed>
I've told them that flames are generally exported from Christmas, Cooks, Vanuatu, and sometimes Hawaii. Could you send me an email clarifying this so I can respond to Mr. Everything is Caught with Cyanide properly?
<I am in concurrence with your view, observation. Flames are rare in the P.I. I also have never seen them on a "list" of animals from the area. I will post this message with our loricula information. Thank you, Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Mary Middlebrook

Farm-Raised Centropyge loricula 9/10/03
Bob:
Since you have a place in Hawaii, I figured I would address this question directly to you.  Do you or anyone you know have any experience with the tank-raised C. loricula out of Hawaii?  I was wondering if anyone has seen what these specimens are looking like.  Do you know how long this species has been tank-raised?  Is it better to wait a longer time for numerous generations before acquiring one?  Any information is greatly appreciated.  Thanks, Rich
<Have not seen any cultured Flames for sale as of yet... Think this is a U. of HI project still at this point (i.e. not commercial). Will take a while to grow out ( a few to several months) the young to be anywhere near saleable size. Bob Fenner>

Re: Farm-Raised Centropyge loricula 9/10/03
Bob:
Thanks for the blazing fast reply.  Actually, one of your sponsors is claiming to sell these:
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=21&pCatId=1644
and I was hoping you had some more info.   This is the first place I come to (and buy books from) for advice.  Rich
<Ahh! Thank you for this notice... eighty dollars for 3/4 to 1 1/4".... Yikes! Dr.s Fosters and Smith, good for them and the interest.>
Ps: Hey, when are you coming back to the Northeast?
<Mmm, no plans right now... Will be at the next IMAC and MACNA's though. Be seeing you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Farm-Raised Fish 10/29/03
Bob:
A brief review.  I notified you of a mail order company selling a farm-raised Centropyge loricula.  The  company is unimportant to my question, so I will leave them nameless here (you can read in past email below).  First, about your response: "eighty dollars for 3/4" to 1-1/4".... Yikes!...good for them and the industry".  
1) Is "yikes" in regards to (a) size, (b) price or (c) size/price ratio?  
<Yes... just a bit of (to be expected) "sticker-shock" at the price of small specimens (compared to the current transit and net-landed-cost for adults procured from the wild>
2) If it has to do with size, is there a general minimum (not that again!) for farmed fish?
<In general, yes. There is tremendous resistance from consumers (oftener than not) for "too-small" specimens, particularly in the face of available, larger, less-expensive wild-caught individuals of the same species>
3) Are wild specimens of this fish a lot cheaper out West?
<Flames "land" on the west coast for something in the "teens" of dollars to wholesalers... generally retail for 50-75>
4) If yes, is it because of the shorter travel time from their collection sites?
<Mostly yes... due to less re-bagging, shipping time... another important factor is that many markets (towns) shops sell livestock for scant mark-up>
My LFS always has a good supply of larger (3"+) wild-caught specimens at a steady $60.  So, I thought a 33% markup would be a worth it to be able to leave one in the ocean (I like to think of it that way).  Also, I like the idea of having a smaller guy to watch grow up.  
<I agree with your orientation>
5) As far as your 5" maximum statement, how long would you say it takes for this species to reach this size?  
<A few years (2,3) in a large, uncrowded, well-fed setting>
6) Can I reliably approximate an age for this fish at 2", 3" and 4"?
<Perhaps 2, 3 and four years respectively, plus or minus an inch or year>
7) With any "newly" farm-raised livestock, is it best to wait a few generations?
8) If yes, why?
<Not necessarily... it "took" a couple of decades to work out the bugs, get as hardy, colorful, well-marked generations of Amphiprionines captive-produced as wild, but the Centropyges, other angels... Gobiosoma, pseudochromids and others are hardier than wild-caught from the get-go nowadays>
9) How long (ballpark) would a few generations take?
<five, ten years, depending on species characteristics, difficulties to work out in the breeding, rearing protocols>
10) Can you breed out the "wild" in a species?
<Yes, definitely>
Sorry, I think I got carried away, but I just wanted to cover everything.  My main concern is buying a large specimen that is already 5 years old/possibly at middle-age, since this fish will be my crown jewel.  Regards, Rich.
<No worries. Good questions, valid concerns. Bob Fenner>