Marine ich-- how long can it survive essentially fresh water situation?
I'm sorry if this has been answered before but I can't seem to find the answer using the search.
My question is: With a marine system with ich at 78 degrees, if I exchange all the water and put in RO water so that the system now is essentially 1.000 sp grav, how long do I need to leave it as such before adding salt and bringing system back to 1.024. I basically have rock, sand with no corals and now, no fish.  All I have seen answered before is when the tank is left fallow but at ~1.024 sp grav. --6 to 8 weeks. Thank you.
<I suspect, if there is not much mulm, detritus, muck... most all ich/crypt should be killed within a few to several hours. Unfortunately, I have heard, read anecdotes stating that this parasite withstood weeks of freshwater exposure in "dirty" tanks that had their fish and other livestock removed... Best to go the biocide route and bleach/wash such systems to be absolutely sure. Bob Fenner>

Hyposalinity Or Medication For Ich Treatment?
Hi crew,
<Hi there! Scott F. here today!>
I have am having serious issues in battling ich this time around.
<Uh- Oh...>
All of my fish (1 Flame Angel, 1 Valentini Puffer, 3 Firefish and 1 Neon Goby) were infected with ich. I removed all from my 100 g. and put them into 2 separate 10 g. QT cycled tanks. The Flame Angel Beat up the Firefish so I got a second-hand 29 g. with a divider and moved all fish in there. I lowered the sg to 1.010 and ever since, I'm having bad water quality issues. I tried
Bio-Spira but it doesn't work at that sg.
<Not sure of that- I would follow the manufacturer's guidelines to the letter. I've never been a big fan of hyposalinity for a variety of reasons, but regardless- water quality can be brought in line through good husbandry techniques...>
I change 10 g. twice daily in effort to reduce nitrites. Ammonia is now 0, nitrite usually 0.1-0.2. I was using tap water for the change water but the chloramines (.25 ammonia even with Prime) were creating larger nitrite spikes (.5). I am running to my LFS daily to get 20 gallons of DI water.
<Unfortunate, but your solution is a good one, given the circumstances...>
It's been almost 2 weeks and it's getting very expensive and time-consuming. I spend 5 hours a day changing/getting water. I can't install a RO unit at this time.
<I'm sorry to hear that...It sounds like actually procuring the water is eating up most of your time? Daily water changes are not a great idea in a situation like this, IMO. Possibly more disruptive than helpful. Consider increasing the SG (gradually, of course) back to "normal" parameters. This will allow you to use the currently ineffective "bacteria in a bottle" product. You could then treat with a common over-the-counter ich medication, such as copper sulfate (for fishes that can tolerate it) or a formalin-based product.>
To make matters worse, it's been 10 days of hyposalinity and the fish have ich again. I lowered the sg to 1.009. My flame angel's lips are white (probably from bad water quality).
<Hmm...not sure about the cause, but water quality is certainly a possibility>
All fish are still eating. I think the cure is worse
than the disease at this point.
<Well, as I've previously stated- I am not a big fan of hyposalinity. Not to say that some medications are any less stressful, but they do have proven track records.>
I think I might have to raise the sg back to normal, and use some other treatment.
<We're on the same wavelength!>
I've had success with hypo in the past, but that was only 1 fish at a time not 6!. I'm probably not siphoning all the eggs out (the firefish are very jumpy and prone to fly out of the tank when I siphon).
<Understood>
Should I continue hypo, and if so how long? Should I treat with formalin too? I can't use copper because of my scaleless fish. My main display is fallow (I'm keeping it this way for 4-6 weeks).
<Regular specific gravity and formalin-based medication would be my recommendation>
Thanks for any advice you can provide
Tired, Angela
<Do a little "course correction" here, Angela- and carry on from there! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Ich treatment: Is Ruby Reef Hydroplex safe (5/29/04)
Is Ruby Reef Hydroplex safe to use on a Porcupine Puffer? < I am not familiar with that medication/treatment ....sorry. I did do a bit of research for you and came up with no helpful information. The contents are not listed and there is no mention of contraindications for certain fish species. I would suggest either contacting the manufacturer or instead using one of the other known ich remedies like a pH & temp adjusted fresh water dip for 7 to 8 min and up to 30 if the fish is comfortable and tolerating the dip. Any signs of distress the fish needs to be removed immediately. Never leave the fish un attended. In addition hyposalinity, lowering the main tank to a specific gravity of 1.010 for 4 to 6 weeks. Some believe that lacing food with garlic preparations is helpful. Its effectiveness is controversial but certainly is not harmful.>
He has ich and needs some medicated fresh water dips.  How often and for how long should I do
this? < there is information on freshwater dips and hyposalinity here
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
..... He is living in the main tank by himself right now.  
My clown is in a hospital tank with CopperSafe.  Is this okay for the clown?  <Never mix medications unless the manufacturer instructions tell you differently.
I did a 50% water change to my 80 gallon main tank. < 80g will not be sufficient for you Puffer long term. You will need at least 100g or more> The temp is 80 and the
ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are zero. The specific gravity is 1.019. pH is 8.3. I have read your articles already for about one hour.  I got tired of looking for my answers. <Sorry >
I hope you don't mind me asking you directly. <No problem at all>
Please advise.
< In addition biological cleaners are helpful ....cleaner shrimp (the best Lysmata amboinensis) and maybe a couple of cleaner gobies (Gobiosoma spp.) these will help remove the parasites, and make the fish livestock "feel" a lot better.
Thank you! Irene. < Your most welcome, Leslie >

Copper or Hypo?
I have a debate. I have my Tusk, Assasi trigger and Black cap Gramma in my hospital tank for a week now. These are new additions. I have seen only 1 or 2 spots on the tusk over the last 6 days.  My Trigger is from the Red Sea. My debate is; I have read along the forums that a tusk did not survive hypo, and also that the Red Sea fish don't like hypo too much. So do I treat with Cupramine or hypo?<I would go with copper, these are pretty tough fish> I personally would like copper better because I think is a more for sure way of eliminating ich.<agreed> But can my fish handle it.<they should> I really want to do the best as I just lost about $800 on fish to ich and these were not cheap either.<agreed, I would treat with a brand called Copper Power... it is less toxic than most other copper remedies and I have "never" (knock on wood) lost any fish when treating them for parasites with this medication, good luck, IanB> My main tank has been fish-less for 6 weeks now.

- Treating Ich with Hyposalinity -
Hello crew:
<Hello.>
I am currently letting the main tank go fallow, and my fishes are in a 20gallon QT with filters heater, I know how a proper Qt should be setup so I do not need info on that.  This is the first time I try hyposalinity and before I used copper most of the time. The reason why I try this is because I have 2 very sensitive fish in the list, 1 being a sub adult regal angel and a juv Blueface angel. From the observation, they have ick. Not like they have velvet. because they are still behaving normally and actively searching for food, eat well in the QT and no scratching of any kind. Also, I notice when the ick fell off the fin of the fish are not transparent anymore... and it is not velvet because I see no slime, not breathing too rapidly either. 
<Ok.>
I put them into the qt on Monday and gradually lowering the salinity, from 1.025 to now 1.010. However the ick is still present.. should ick Trophont be killed at this kind of salinity? 
<It "may" but really hyposalinity on its own has never worked for me.... you'll need to use this in addition to some other methods to kill the ich. Because of the sensitivity of these fish to copper, I'd recommend formalin. Do make sure you follow the directions to the letter as an overdose will likely be fatal. Make sure you also use a gravel vacuum to clean the bottom of the quarantine as you'll be able to remove the sessile stage of ich this way and potentially break the cycle. Likewise, once you start the formalin treatment you'll need to have many days of water changes ready to perform perhaps 25% a day or more to keep the water quality tip-top.> 
The qt temperature is 82F. and no ammonia..  The concern is I can see my fish getting more ick on its body today, then before I lowered the salinity 4 days ago... and the fish is still live and eating, swimming and behaving normal[ly]. Should I add copper now??? 
<See, previous comment.> 
I really love this 2 fish and so not want them to die. 
<And neither would I... but act now... don't wait.> 
Please help me !!! Desperate.  Eric
<Cheers, J -- > 

- Treating Ich with Hyposalinity -
Should I wait to see if they will get any better?
<No... parasitic problems don't "just go away" and in fact have a nasty tendency to get worse as the parasites multiply.> 
I have heard that formalin is very dangerous to my fish and myself and I do not know how to administer them.... if I really need to do this can you tell me how much should I add to my QT? 
<The directions are on the container... will vary from brand to brand so I can't give you a generalization. Formalin can cause problems, but if you follow the directions to the letter, you should be all set. That and of course don't drink it and you will be fine.> 
I have a 20 gallon QT. how about dips?
<You can do that too... again, follow the directions on the bottle.> 
And how to prepare dip solution?
<You can use fresh or saltwater... a bath is longer than a dip, and a bath in a formalin solution would be what I'd recommend here if you don't want to add formalin to the quarantine tank.>
Will the siphon and dip everyday further stress the fish?
<More than being covered with parasites? My friend, you need to understand that from the point you put the fish in a quarantine tank, they were under stress. What do you think would be less stressful - someone siphoning the tank or suffocating because your gills are full of parasites?> 
I prefer to put my hands in the qt as little as possible... stress is a "initiator" of disease right? 
<Stress can open the door to disease, but as I mentioned, this door was opened quite a while ago.>
If hypo treatment is so unsuccessful in your opinion why people still advocate? 
<They typically advocate this IN ADDITION TO other treatments.>
Eric
<Cheers, J -- > 

Marine Ich (I think)
Hi, My hippo tang has developed about 5 or 6 white spots on his body, is breathing rapidly and looks a bit pale. I've read through the articles and Q&A on disease but am still somewhat confused. So, what is my best plan of action?  My tank houses 2 clowns, 1 yellow wrasse, 1 hippo tang, 1 cleaner shrimp, a few turbo snails, and 1 brittle star. Coral include, a leather, candy cane, bubble, torch and assorted polyps. If I move all the fish to a quarantine tank, is it true that the parasite population will crash with no host? If so how long would that take? Would I have to remove my shrimp, star fish and snails to? What would be the best treatment in the quarantine tank, what brand of medication? Is it ok to treat the other fish even though they show no signs of disease since they will all be in the quarantine tank?  Thanks for your time and info.  Angelo
>>Good morning, Angelo, Marina here.  Ok, you seem to be observing a parasitic infection, classically ich, either Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium.  Look up "hyposalinity ich" in the Google search engine on our site and you'll find PUHLENTY to read, eh?  Also, look up "parasitic disease" as well.  Now, onto using hyposalinity: remove all the fish to however many hospital-quarantine tanks/containers (doesn't have to be a tank, per se) as necessary to avoid overcrowding.  They're going to be in there a good 6-8 weeks while you let the main display lie fallow (fishless) to deprive the parasites of hosts.  This will clear the display of cysts.  The fish can be treated either using hyposalinity or copper (I generally don't recommend Formalin, as it's a bit tricky to use), though I'll suggest the hypo route initially, saves you time and money (you'll need a test kit if using copper).  You *will* need to be sure that the salinity in the q/t is around 1.010 or less to be effective.  It will take the fish a couple or three days to acclimate to the lower salinity (try a drip method if you can set up a container w/drip line).  They should be free of ich after 30 days, but you don't want them back in the main till you're sure it's ich-free.  If you bump up the tank temp that will speed up the parasite's lifecycle--be careful here, no more than 84F what with the corals.  That should do the trick for you.  Also, utilize nutrition as a means of fighting disease, use a supplement such as Selcon (soak food in it for a bit) a few times a week to give all fishes a boost.  I will also suggest having on hand some Spectrogram and/or Melafix in case of secondary infections at the parasite wound sites.  Best of luck!  Marina

More Issues With Ich
>Hi!
>>Hello!
>Long time reader, infrequent question asker.  Really enjoy the information provided on the page, I consider it one of my #1 resources.  
I have a 60 gallon tank, I purchased a flame angel and introduced the specimen into the tank (I don't have a Quarantine tank as such, I inherited the larger tank).
>>You know what we're going to say, right?  And, as a longtime reader, you also know that quarantine doesn't need to be done in a proper aquarium.  But now it's moot, let's continue.
>The fish looked grand in the store, however, 3 days after introduction the fish developed Ich.  I have never had ich in my tank before, or any disease for that matter but it had to happen sometime, ya know, with my reckless abandon and all... *ahem*
>>AHEM!  
>Anyways, I have the tank running under a hyposalinity treatment, I have also been feeding garlic, doing bi-daily water changes (10 - 15%).  The fish no longer shows signs of ich, but I imagine that is just because the trophonts have fallen off.  I have been doing a gravel siphoning with every other water change and have been moving ornaments around here and there to vacuum under them.  None of the other fish (yellow tang, maroon clown, Heniochus Bannerfish) are showing signs of the disease and they all seem to be taking the hyposalinity treatment well.
>>Good.
>Here's the question portions... Is there anything else I should be doing (besides quarantine) to my tank to ensure the disease doesn't spread anymore?  I don't relish the idea of treating the tank with copper as Centropyge loricula is known to be somewhat copper sensitive, and formalin treatments are fairly hard to find in most of the shops in my city.
>>Well, if you're automatically factoring those treatments out, then the only thing I can tell you is the set up a q/t, freshwater dip all fish before you put them in it, and let that display lie fallow for 6-8 weeks.  The garlic has only been proven to have some antibacterial effects, and there is anecdotal evidence that it seems to stimulate feeding response.
>Also, my tank is equipped with an underground filter powered by two Powerhead 802's, the post powerful ones of the AquaClear label, it sucks down food instantly which prompts me to turn the pumps off during feeding, is it possible that the suction from the gravel bed will keep the encysted ich babies on the bottom of the tank and break their life cycle by not making them able to attach to a host? Far fetched maybe, but is it possible?
>>Yes, VERY far fetched, not at all likely that they'd be entirely "trapped" within the confines of the U.G..
>I will keep it at the current gravity (1.012) for about a month and see what happens, is it a safe attitude to have that assuming after 5 weeks of treatments and there are no reoccurrences or ill effects of the fish due to hyposalinity that I can consider the problem finished?  Should I be considering a more aggressive treatment for the problem?  I'd appreciate any advice you might have. -Bj Rampton
>>Hyposalinity would be better at 1.010, sometimes even as low as 1.007.  Always consider more aggressive treatment, since you can't get the formalin in town, order some (cuz we can tell you're online ;) ) and have it on hand.  Remember, you have to be careful with this stuff as well as with copper.  (My own experience with flames doesn't show them to be exceedingly sensitive to copper treatments, but formalin will certainly work as well if it comes to that).  The big thing is that to eliminate the possibility of reinfection you'll need to let that display lie fallow.  Search for Terry Bartelme's articles on ich, too, he's written much about this parasite.  I would go with 6-8 weeks with no ich observed before I felt it was no longer an issue.  Marina

Ich Again!
I've had my tank setup for 18 months and this latest bout with Ich has me just about ready to give up.
<Never give up! We're here for you!>
My tank is setup with all of the best equipment as recommended by users of this site, it is all oversized and properly maintained.  Water parameters are excellent (I even switched to RO/DI), temp is controlled via a chiller and dual heaters ......oh yeah, I also have a 25watt UV for which I change bulbs every 6 months.  I got impatient and pulled a fish too quickly from QT and ended up with Ich in the display (110 gal FO).
<It happens...We're all human. I KNOW that you'll never do that again, right?>
Over time after treating each fish it got to the point that I disregarded conventional wisdom and treated the display with copper.
<Not what I would do- but  hey, you used your best judgment...Can't be faulted for that>
It looked fine after treatment (3 weeks at appx 1.015-1.02) for about 2 weeks and voila, Ich on at least 3 fish.  With 9 fairly large fish, I don't see QT as a viable option therefore I can't allow the tank to go fallow for 4 weeks.
<Honestly, even though it's the biggest pain in the butt, I believe that letting the tank run fallow is the best, and most reliable way of breaking the life cycle of the causative parasite, and essentially eradicating this illness from your system. As an alternative to another tank, have you considered the large plastic Rubbermaid storage containers? They are relatively cheap, can hold fairly large amounts of water, and can do the job in a pinch. Throw in a filter and heater of correct size, some PVC sections for cover; maybe a cheap fluorescent light fixture, and voila-instant triage center! Not pretty- but it does the trick! Do consider this>
I have been thinking about hyposalinity.  Will this rid not only the fish but the tank of Ich?
<Hyposalinity can work, but frankly- I think that it's more trouble than simply letting the tank go fallow. In my opinion (notice I said "my"?), there are quite a few potential things that can go wrong with hyposalinity if you don't keep a very close eye on things. If not done carefully, there can be "collateral damage" to desirable animals. I think that environmental manipulation is a good alternative if you are dead-set on not removing all of the fishes, but it is not the most effective course.>
What is my best course of action?
<I like the fallow tank technique, as indicated above-if for no other reason than the fact that it denies the parasites access to a host, and absolutely reduces their population to a level that healthy fishes should be able to withstand It does work if done correctly>
I read all of the faq's, etc and I get conflicting answers.
<Yep- there are tons of opinions out there- no one is the 'perfect" answer. You just have to weigh all of the factors and choose the course of action that you feel will work the best. Just because the fallow tank procedure works for me does not mean that it will be the cure for your system. It is, however, very, very effective the majority of the time, and has been proven over and over by thousands of hobbyists and professional aquarists...>
Your response could save me from going over the edge and switching to fresh water. Thanks
<Again- don't give up! you're learning a lot from this awful experience! You'll be successful if you adopt a course of treatment and stay with it! You can do it! Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

Hyposalinity/Ich
Hi Craig/WWM
I need your advice. I'm planning on decreasing the SG (1.012, gradually) in my main tank and increase the temperature to 82-83 (gradually).
<With your corals and inverts I wouldn't lower SG.>
My SG right now is 1.023 at 77-78 deg. How slow is the modification/change should be? I have leather corals, polyps and mushroom in my main tank. I also have a lawnmower blenny, sailfin tang (I only did a FW dip before putting him in, I know shame on me) and a cleaner/neon goby (he hides a lot and not doing any cleaning yet). My water parameters are ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, Ca is 400 and PO3 0. Would this environment modification kill my soft corals? How long can I keep my main tank in this low SG and increase temp (without killing my soft corals)? Will my neon goby be a cleaner someday (he's tank raised according to my LFS)? My fish/es does not show any symptoms yet? (knock on wood). I already loss a sailfin tang with a FW dip (I guess too stress and weak from ich). My tank was fallow for 5 weeks before adding the tang. By the way, I'm doing this to prevent ich (?). My quarantine tank has copper from my previous sailfin (ick). I read about copper causing some damage to tang's digestive system (that's the reason I only did FW dip with my new sailfin). I know the best prevention is QT. But can I perform this modification at my present situation? and would this help eradicate some of the ick in my system?. Thanks again for your help, Jun
<Wait and see if you get symptoms on any other fish. The neon Goby may or may not be a cleaner, I have two tank raised Neons and they clean my Tang while the shrimp clean everyone else. You can run your main at 83F but I wouldn't lower the SG because of your other inhabitants. I suspect your sailfin was pretty weak already....
I would see if you have any symptoms and treat them if necessary. Good luck!  Craig>

Ich
Hi Bob, 
<<Actually JasonC, Bob has dashed off to a tropical paradise for another diving junket.>> 
Yet another question about getting rid of marine ich. I've read an article on Osmotic Shock therapy that mentions dropping tank salinity to 1.012 or 1.010 for three weeks once valuable inverts are removed. 
<<Also referred to as hyposalinity - it can work, but that SPG range is rather low in the long haul, and could be detrimental. You can accomplish the same thing using a pH-adjusted, freshwater dip of five to ten minutes.>> 
It claims that bacteria and fish will survive this lowered salinity, ich will NOT. 
<<Inverts will not survive either. If you really want to go this route, I wouldn't lower the salinity any farther than 1.018.>>
 It does also mention, a complete system cleaning and large water change, which I know are also tools used in combating ich. I know you recommending removing fish to a separate system for treatment, but if this is not practical, does the OST approach work? 
<<Not as the only method - it can be used as part of a system of treatment, but in my experience your best bet would be to remove the fish to separate quarantine systems and run the tank fallow for six weeks.>> W. Tripp

Ich
Hello Bob, 
<<Actually, it's JasonC today...>>
I recently lost several fish in a 72 gallon saltwater to what I believed to be ich or velvet. I used green-x & was then told by my local fish dealer to drop my density slowly from my normal 1.021 to 1.015 to hopefully save the last 2 fish, a maroon clown in very poor health & a porcupine puffer that seemed to be doing well. I was told to leave it for 2 weeks at the lowered salinity & also raise the temperature to 81 degrees. They also instructed me to use a Spectrum Thera+A which has garlic in it. The clown was also dipped in FORMALIN -3 for 50 minutes. After all was said and done both fish came through with flying colors. I waited for the 2 weeks then raised the salinity back up slowly. We thought it was safe because there were no signs of disease so we purchased a medium size blonde Naso tang. He looked great...for 2 days and then white spots appeared. Later that night we noticed him twitching and darting. The next morning we dipped him in Formalin-3 (which the fish dealer had already done before we purchased him 3 nights earlier). I'm sure by now you can tell I have no QT. 
<<All this could have been avoided if you did...>> 
I have been told to lower the salinity down slowly to 1.009 and keep it there for 4 weeks. 
<<Egads.. please don't do that as you will likely lose all your fish. I would consider that now is a good time to get a couple of 20g tanks as start your quarantine systems... isolate these fish and allow the tank to run fallow for about six weeks. You can lower the salinity, but anything lower than 1.018 is going to cause significant stress on the fish.>>
 Also, the tang is eating a dried seaweed. The dealer instructed me to put a liquid garlic on this food which I have done. 
<<For whatever it's worth, I don't subscribe to the concept of garlic as a cure - perhaps as a preventative, or promoter of good health, but certainly it will not kill ich or Oodinium.>> 
He is still eating it. I also purchased a cleaner goby, but I haven't seen him clean anything yet. I would certainly appreciate any advice you could give me.
 <<Start quarantining!>> 
Both the clown & puffer appear fine as well as the new goby, but the tang is still darting and I noticed a film on one of his eyes. I also have about 45 lbs of live rock. I am presently at a density of 1.0135. 
<<Don't run the SPG this low.>> 
Also how often can a fish be dipped in this Formalin-3 ? Will 4 weeks get rid of this disease? 
<<Not if the problem is still in the tank. All of these parasitic diseases have life cycles. When you see spots on your fish, these are irritations caused by the parasites and most often, the parasite has already dropped off and is already making 100,000 copies of itself to come back and haunt you another day. Consider quarantining everything - running the tank fallow. Please read this link and the FAQs beyond: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm >>
Thanks, Gary in Kentucky
<<Cheers, J -- >>

Re: Ich
Jason, 
<<Hi,>>
Thanks for the quick response. I had read Bob suggesting Hypo-salinity by slowly lowering the salt density to 1.010 to many different people. Is this not something you agree with or is my situation different? 
<<Well, perhaps you and I are reading different pages, and for me, I'm just working from memory but I can't ever recall anyone recommending anything below 1.015 unless it was a freshwater bath, but I wouldn't be surprised. Keep in mind that it's not supposed to be a permanent condition and keeping the specific gravity low for several weeks will cause stress on the fish. On the flip side, and from my own experience, I've never had any luck with using 'just' hyposalinity as a curative measure. Your absolute best bet is to run the system fallow. I offer these two URLS for your reading pleasure:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/martrthyposalfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marparasitcurefaqs.htm >>
In getting a QT tank or tanks, should I use water from my 72 gallon and then use copper to get rid of ich? 
<<You can do this, but keep in mind that it will be next to impossible for biological filter bacteria to thrive/survive a copper treated system so you will need to do large, frequent water changes to keep ahead of the ammonia - perhaps 25-50% every other day.>>
 Do I put the fish in during the copper treatment, or wait till the treatment is complete? 
<<You put the fish and the copper in the quarantine tank - don't put anything in the main display, not even fish - let it go fallow.>> 
I'm really a rookie at saltwater, so I appreciate your wisdom. I understand to keep the 72 fallow for six weeks. Could I get by with one 20 gallon tank for 6 weeks with a 4 inch puffer, a 3 inch Naso, a 2 inch maroon clown & a 1 inch neon goby?
 <<I really wouldn't recommend it - something will not make it through that type of crowding.>> 
What do I lower the density to in the fallow tank? 
<<I wouldn't even bother - I've run this routine myself - you could, and it won't hurt, but you'll need to bring the conditions back to normal before you re-introduce the fish. I would just turn up the temperature to 82 or so and put the parasite reproduction into overdrive - with no host fish to live on, their numbers will soon be depleted.>> 
Do I keep the QT tank at 1.021? 
<<Or perhaps even closer to 1.025 which is the average for the world's oceans.>> 
Last question, Does live rock carry disease & do I leave the rock in the fallow tank. 
<<It can 'house' it, but it won't promote parasitic disease. By taking out the fish, you will break the life cycle of the parasites. I would leave the live rock in the fallow tank and give it a chance to recuperate from the hyposalinity - low SPG is especially harmful to invertebrate life and potentially some of the fauna in the live rock.>> 
Well, I guess that was two, but thanks. 
<<My pleasure - take it slow. Cheers, J -- >>
Gary from Kentucky

Help Treating Ick
Hi Bob
<<JasonC here, Bob is away diving.>>
I have an expensive clown trigger in my 72 gal. I had an Ich breakout and added copper (Its at .20 ppm now) and lowered the salinity to 1.014 temporarily. The tang cleared up but the trigger is infected. Is this due to the cycle of the parasite? How badly was my bacteria media affected? <<somewhere between stalled-out and dead I would guess. Sometimes these things make a recovery, sometimes they have to start all over again. Copper is serious stuff, best used as a third or fourth option and not the first.>> 
Is there anything else I can do to stop the from spreading? 
<<Don't introduce fish into your tank until they've been through a couple of weeks of quarantine. Once you put a fish with parasites into your display tank, within a day or so, the parasite will have made the rounds. Do read up:
Parasites & Marine Tanks: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm >> Thanks, Joe
<<You are quite welcome. Do also run some activated carbon to pull out the remaining copper. Cheers, J -- >>

Re: Ich
Bob,
Fish are doing fine, eating very aggressively. Follow me around tank looking for food. I do see a slight increase in parasites on the body. No scratching or hiding. Will the parasites run in cycles or will they keep increasing in numbers?
<Increasing if conditions favor them>
Should I leave well enough alone or consider hyposalinity?
<One avenue of control.>
I have read your articles about and was wondering why you do not get complete kill if you go to 1.010 specific gravity for an extended period of time (what would that period of time be)?
<Mmm, tolerance by some individuals, allowance for more resistant stages...>
Of course I would elevate temp. Freshwater dips are so effective that I would think you could do some major damage to parasites. What else would you lose?
<The hosts>
Have 3 butterflies, goby for cleaning, snowflake eel and live rock. Also have a few snails and hermit crabs. D. Stanley
<Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Ich update
Hi Bob,
A couple of months ago I did not quarantine two little Blue Green Chromis for long enough and my tank became infected with Ich. You probably remember.
<Yes. A painful lesson>
I remove the fish to a 38 Ga. and treated with copper after dipping in Methylene Blue. The Ich returned a week later. I tried Malachite green and formaldehyde plus dipping. The Ich returned again. Then I lowered the S.G. and it got rid of it for good. I let them stay in the Q-tank for almost two months to lower the Ich in the main tank. Now my fish have been returned to the main tank and have been there for over two weeks. Perfect health and full of vigor. They all survived and are fat and sassy. Thanks for all your help. Just wish I tried the lower specific gravity first. Man that sure did the trick.
<Thank you for relating your ordeal and success. Bob Fenner>
Zimmy

Ick...Ich
Hello Bob,
<You actually have Steven now. Bob is off traveling until next week.>
Hope all is well. Quick update, I got the herbal ich attack and emperor aquatics 25 watts, in the mail yesterday. I successful transferred and fresh water dipped all the occupants of the 125 gallon and they are now in the 55 gallon. I have began treatment with the Herbal ich attack and will keep you posted on results as it appears to be fairly new. I was on WWM last night trying to find the procedures for leaving the tank empty, but all I gathered was that I should drain system and add freshwater for a couple of hours
<Please do not do this. You are correct. It will kill your beneficial bacteria and any life on you live rock.>
then add salt water up to 0.015 to kill parasites. At what point do I raise the salinity to normal limits and won't this throw the nitrogen cycle off. I don't want to have to recycle the system again. Please give me the step by step process, I'm trying to kill those parasites for good this time. I will also hook up the new UV sterilizer, kind of double kill here. I know you recommend leaving the system empty for 2 months, do you think this could be sooner with use of the new UV sterilizer.
<You can probably get away with one month.>
Thanks Again, Gillian

In the Thick of Ick
Bob,
<Anthony Calfo, my friend, in your service>
It's me again from my Wife's email account. My Purple Tang has Ich. It looks like someone sprinkled salt on him. I looked at him on Thursday and he was fine. My wife had ACL surgery Friday and when I got home Saturday, he was sprinkled with white dots. Today, he looks a little better and there are fewer white dots than yesterday. My water conditions are near perfect with a trace of ammonia (I've done two 10% water changes the last three days to help correct that).
<ahhh, but beyond the ammonia, what else is going on that could have caused the Ich? What is the day/night swing in temperature. What size is your heater, etc?>
My question is what to do now. I have a 90 Gallon All-Glass Reef Tank with 100lbs of LR, 20lbs Live Sand, A cleanup Crew consisting of hermits, snails, sally Light Foot crabs, Emerald Crabs, Decorator Crabs, Haddoni Anemone, Blonde Naso Tang, Blue-Headed Wrasse,
Clarkii Clown and a Orchid Dottyback as well as numerous corals (please see the link for all the coral types) http://www.slabe.net/Reef.htm. I do have another 30 gallon tank (use to be freshwater) in the closet not even set-up yet. I'm not quite sure what to do. I've read about Hyposalinity cure 
<I am not a big subscriber to this methodology for most>
but that doesn't treat "The System" as you're article mentioned on disease. In addition, I was going to setup the other tank tonight anyway with an Aragonite Sand bottom and a hang-on filter and use this tank as a quarantine
<quarantine a great idea but not with sand (harbors parasites and absorbs medicants... must go bare bottomed (the tank...not you)>
on all new fish purchase but even if I get it setup today and add a damsel fish tomorrow, it still won't be cycled for a month or so,
<you need to read a lot more on how easy quarantine is... a sponge filter can be ready and running in your main tank or sump at all times without needing a ferocious damsel in a boring display tank at all times. Leave filter running in future and only set up secondary tank when needed>
so I'm back to square one and completely lost.
<be sure to always QT all fish, coral, rock I the future>
I don't want to lose any corals, inverts 
<not possible... Ich is non pathogenic to these animals>
<sorry, but a possibility>
and especially any pricey fish (The Blue Haddoni & Blonde Naso). I wish I could just do something with the Purple Tang by itself but I don't know what to do... Please help...Need good advice quickly...Christopher Slabe
<sorry again... but the issue must be addressed in the tank in some way. Feeding medicated food is mildly helpful. Maintain stable temperature is critical. Small frequent and proper temp water changes from tank bottom will also reduce parasites. Lightly lowering the salinity may be stimulating (moving up to 2/100th point daily from 1.024 to 1.019 but watch inverts carefully). Otherwise... the dam has already sprung a leak. We need to find the problem (what stress caused the Ick) and address it. Anthony>

Re: In The Thick of Ich
Anthony,
<hello, Ohio buddy!>
I think that the Purple Tang obtained Ich when I introduced a 
<as you called it a baby horse of a fish > 
Blonde Naso. It is much larger than the Purple Tang and I think maybe the Tang just got scared and got ich?
<stress could certainly cause it but would be much less likely if all fish went through strict quarantine>
Does this sound like it might be a culprit? Here are my next questions based on your responses:
1) How do I lower the pH as you mentioned? 
<my mistake... I misspoke!: I meant to say lower your SALINITY as a stimulant by 2/100th point per day towards 1.019/1018>
I currently use a Kalk Calcium addition system with a Dosing Pump and that keeps the pH high. Adding a buffer solution also keeps the Alkalinity high which resists the lowering of the pH. I have a Electronic pH monitor to easily be able to tell the drop but I don't know how to drop it...
<if it is under 8.7 during peak daylight... don't worry about it. Natural seawater is 8.45 and can easily swing up to 8.6/8.7 with no trouble in aquaria>
2) I do have two sponges that water flows through in my sump. I could use one of those? 
<yes, converting these mature sponges can make excellent and ready bio-filters!>
I'm going to do a search on a quarantine tank in your database...
<excellent... best regards, Anthony>

Thanks
I wanted to write to thank you for some very sound (albeit drastic) advice. I've submitted a number of questions to your column and thought it only fair to take a moment to express my appreciation. Besides, it's kind of interesting what happened and I thought you might appreciate the feedback.
I have five marine tanks, reef and fish only. Four of them have been trouble-free for long periods and help me keep my sanity in dealing with the fifth. The fifth tank, a 125 fish only has been plagued for close to a year with recurring ich. I tried everything and nothing worked. I have an 80 gallon quarantine tank and I moved all my fish (several times) there to treat them with copper. I've treated the main tank with copper (very carefully testing and maintaining therapeutic levels everyday), run it fallow for weeks on end. Every time, the ich returned when I put healthy fish back in the tank.
A few months ago, I read one of your columns where you recommended draining the tank, replacing it with freshwater and basically, dipping the tank. It sounded drastic and I was hesitant to try it. I have a plenum in the tank and was unsure what effect the freshwater would have on the bacteria. But I had exhausted all other options so I gave it a shot with some modification.
First, I lowered salinity to 1.014 over a two week period, leaving the fish and inverts in. (The ich was not very severe at the time and the cleaner shrimp were providing some relief to the fish). By the way, from what I've seen, having done this a few times, the salinity and temperature trick rarely eliminates ich; it seems to just set it back until it acclimates.
<Agreed>
To my surprise, all the inverts (including snails and cucumbers) handled the salinity fine. I then removed all livestock, moving the fish to the QT with copper and moving the inverts to a refugium on a reef tank. I then let the tank run fallow two weeks. Then I drained the tank to about 2 inches of water (enough to keep the plenum under water). Then I refilled with straight tap water (not dechlorinated). 
After about 30 minutes, I removed all live rock to a saltwater holding tank and left the tank running with freshwater overnight.
The next day, I drained it and filled with pre-mixed R/O saltwater, added a bottled bacteria colony and let everything run a few days. I slowly returned the live rock, checked all nutrient levels and the water was fine. 
As for return of livestock, I started with a purple tang, figuring if there was any ich in the tank, the tang would show it right away. I've now returned about half the fish to the tank and it's been about ten days without a sign of any problem.
I know this may all sound drastic and you may be saying "Of course there's no ich after all that," but after a year of fighting ich in this tank, I was pleasantly surprised that it worked so well. A few other notes: the impact on the plenum was undetectable. Within 2 or 3 days of the "dip" the plenum was bubbling as efficiently as ever and nitrates are still only at trace levels. Also, to my surprise, three small black and white Hawaiian hermit crabs lived through the whole process, even 60 degree chloraminated freshwater (which made me worry the parasites might have survived as well). Finally, having the tank so empty was a great cleaning opportunity. This tank hasn't looked so good in a long time.
Thanks again. I hope this information proves helpful. >>
<Thank you for the synopsis, and careful relating of your trials and triumph. It has helped (in future) many more folks and will save untold numbers of fishes. I thank you, Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich and Treatment?, Tang With Ich
Hello Bob,
<Scott F. here tonight>
I have a fairly new 100 gallons FOWLR tank with only 1 yellow tang. Few days ago, I noticed there were some small white spots (like salt grains) on the fins but quickly disappeared after a few hours. I did lot of reading on this web site and these steps were what I did so far:
- Dipped the fish in FW with Methylene Blue for 5 min.s
- Then moved it to a hospital tank (20 gallons).
- Raised tank temperature 1 degree/day.
- Lowered the Spg 0.001/day.
- Do water change everyday (2 gallons) since hospital tank is not yet established.
- Let the main tank goes fallow for about 1 1/2 month.
<Good protocol, quickly/decisively executed>
Here're my questions:
1) How high the temperature should I keep in the hospital tank? 
<I'd recommend a consistent 78-80 degrees>
What about the Specific Gravity?
<Personally, I'd go with regular tank s.g.-but aggressive treatment can entail lowering s.g. to around 1.015>
2) Should I treat the yellow tang with any kind of chemical such as copper, formalin... or just altering the water like what I did is enough and observe the fish for a while?
<I'd do the latter, at least at first. Prolonged exposure to copper could damage the fish's digestive system microfauna>
3) For the main tank, should I raise the temperature and lower the Specific Gravity as well?
<I'd leave it alone> 
Should I still do water change even without fish hosts?
<Yup- follow regular maintenance procedures-siphoning substrate may even (arguably) lower the parasite count in the main tank>
Thank you in advance for your help.
<You're doing great-just be patient and keep learning/observing> 
Regards, Dung Ngo

Solving the dreaded ich problem
I am fairly new at the saltwater fish hobby, learning day by day. I released a fish in my main tank not realizing it had ich. Now the majority of the fish in my tank have it. I've taken the infected fish out to medicate and when I put them back in the main tank a week later they have it again. I was told to take my inverts out and drop the salinity level down to 1.015 that this would kill the parasite. It's been three days, I haven't noticed any change. Is this going to work? Any advise would be appreciated, Jeff Johnson
<< If anything is in abundance in our interest/hobby, it is opinions on how to treat disease... No, simply lowering the specific gravity of your system will not kill the ich... Please take a look at the materials stored on my site: Home Page , for not only some concrete ideas on how to proceed, but the logic behind them.
I would continue with the reduced spg, raise the system temperature (to about 82F to speed up the life cycle of the protozoan parasite) and utilize a copper-based medication (with a test kit... daily) for two weeks... and keep your live rock, invertebrates separated for about two months to allow the resting stages of the ich/Cryptocaryon to go fallow.... and avail yourself of purposeful cleaner organisms like Lysmata Shrimp. Bob Fenner>>

Emperor Angel and FW dips for crypt  9/8/05
Dear  Bob,
     Thanks so much for all of your wonderful advice over the past couple of months.  I have a 180g FO tank that had crypt introduced into it after I added an emperor angel, yes I used a QT 4 weeks but unfortunately still had the problem.
     I have had a problem ping ponging with crypt since.  I have had no fish die.
<A testament to your active, good care...>
I have 3 ich magnet tangs in a 55g QT ( large Naso, powder blue, purple tang ) they are doing surprisingly well though they are being treated with copper. Cupramine used to the letter of instructions.  Powder blue initially got HLLE which is now much better since feeding with Gracilaria for a week.  These guys will eventually be cured.
<I admire your resolve>
     As for the other guys in the display ( Emperor 6", Majestic 5" , Foxface 5" 2 clown fish aggression amongst angels has not been a problem)  they are all eating and doing fine.  I initially treated the display with hyposalinity to a SG of 1.009 for 6 weeks which predictably failed to achieve a cure.  Aggressive water changes, good diet etc have kept the fish alive but tank is infested.  I now see the Emperor is getting some white discoloration at the distal end of his right pectoral fin. Probably crypt,
<... or the result of hyposalinity, treatment, stress...>
but I have seen this type of thing go away never to return on other fish many times.  I am in the process of preparing a QT's of 55 gallons as well as 29 gallons.  Yes That makes 3 QT's in all. Two 55gallon and one 29 gallon.
QT 55 g 1 Cupramine Treated 1 Naso, 1 powder blue, 1 purple tolerating well Aggression amongst the tangs has not been a problem
<Crowding has its benefits at times>
Planned QT 2 55 G Plan to add Majestic, Foxface, damsel  3 clowns ( these guys appear disease free )
     Plan on using copper added SLOWLY, testing twice daily
Planned QT 3 29 g plan on treating emperor alone
I have well cycled large BioWheel filters that I am planning to use on the new QT's ( used in curing live rock )
I have read at wet web media that FW dips and daily water changes for and FW dips for 8 days can effect a cure for crypt.
<Some, sometimes>
  Is it likely that treating the emperor in the 29 G in this fashion will achieve a cure ?
<Not the route I would take>
The 180 gallon will lie fallow for 6-8 weeks. I will introduce and aquascape 150 lbs of beautifully cured LR as well as cleaner shrimp to make a new home for the fish that survive.
<Good>
I will most likely reintroduce 3-5 large fish and 3-4 small fish ( hopefully the angels, the Naso, clowns )
Do you think that this is a reasonable plan of action ?
Thanks Jimmy
<I would "risk" the use of copper (likely chelated... maybe the Cupramine product) on the Angel/s... Bob Fenner>

Re: Emperor Angel and FW dips for crypt  9/9/05
Bob,
   Thanks for the feedback.  I am going to QT the angels and start Cupramine at a very low dose and move up to the recommended level.  This AM both of these fish look great in the Display no visible signs of disease ( but that is why they call it crypt which is Greek for hidden )
  but I know there is still crypt in the tank.
<Yes and yes>
  I will fatten them up a bit until things are right for the QT.   As an aside.  What a difference a two foot wide tank makes on reducing stress !!!
<Ahhh! Perhaps asking folks to consider how hard it is on them to make a turn in their car in a too-narrow street...>
  I think that when I put fish in QT their biggest stress seems to be the decreased tank width (  front to back ) of the tank until they re-adjust their swimming pattern when they turn in the water.  
     My experience with my hobby this summer has taught me that there are times to act and there are times to wait.  
<My friend~! You are gaining/unfolding to enlightenment>
Taking action, though important, at the right time can be detrimental when it is time to sit fast.  Aggressive tank maintenance and excellent water conditions go a long way to allow for the fish's immune system to work.  Constantly assessing if treatment is worse than disease is imperative.  Treating in a timely manner when the disease is worse than the treatment can save fish.  Treatment when the treatment is worse that the disease kills fish.  Excellent fish husbandry oftentimes buys us some time to make this critical decision.
<Ahhhh>
Thanks Jimmy
<Thank you... for the "Tao of fish keeping" insights. BobF>