Ich Questions: SW Crypt 8/11/2009
Hi Mike,
<Hello Junaid.>
Hope you are doing well. It has been a long time since my last question.
<Doing well thanks, been traveling quite a bit lately, I was in your part of the world last month in fact (Montreal)>
Everything in my tank is going well and coming along really good with additions of new corals, etc. However, I recently had my first case of ich disease break out. I just started using Proto Marin Coral made by Aquarium Munster.
<I've heard of this product. Unfortunately, I would not classify it as reef safe.
<1 ml Aquarium Munster Proto Marin Coral contains: 1.25 mg of tetramethyl-4,4-diamino-triphenyl-carbinol, <Carbinol form of Malachite Green)0.10 mg of ethacridine lactate <An antiseptic>, 0.10 mg
tetramethylthionine chloride<Methylene Blue>, 0.05 mg hexamethyl-pararosaniline chloride<Gentian Violet>>
In the instructions, it says to switch off protein skimmer and UVLamps. I understand the need to turn off the protein skimmer. I am running T5s on my tank. Do I need to turn these off until the treatment is done as
well? <No, the lighting will be fine. UV Lamps operate is a specific spectrum.>
The instructions say to turn them off on Days 1, 2, 4 and 5 and turn them on for only Days 3 and 6 along with the protein skimmer. Please let me know if it will be okay to turn the lights off. I have a descent amount of corals and worried that turning the lights off will negatively affect the corals.
<The Corals will survive not having the lights for a few days. However, I am concerned that the medication may harm the corals. If moving the fish is not an option, is it possible to move the corals?>
Thanks!
<Here are a few articles on marine ich:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
<Do let me know hot is works out.>
<MikeV>

Aquarium Munster Protomarin Coral Active Ingredients: 8/11/2009
Hi Bob,
<Mike>
Had a query today from a long time reader. He is using Aquarium Munster Protomarin Coral I've seen a few queries on this product in the past, with the key problem being nobody know the active ingredients.
So after a bit of digging, I noticed they used the proper chemical rather than the common names.
1 ml Aquarium Munster Protomarin Coral contains:
1.25 mg of tetramethyl-4,4-diamino-triphenyl-carbinol, (Carbinol form of Malachite Green)
0.10 mg of ethacridine lactate, (A mild antiseptic trade name Acrinol or Rivianol)
0.10 mg tetramethylthionine chloride, (Methylene Blue)
0.05 mg hexamethyl-pararosaniline chloride (A blast from the past.... Gentian Violet)
<Ah yes>
It is definitely more "reef safe" than copper, but I still would not consider it safe for use in a tank with corals, For that matter, not likely to be very effective against Crypt.
Mike
<We are in close agreement. None of these compounds used independently or together are of much use in reef systems. Bob Fenner>

Sick long horn cowfish, Crypt treatment... NOT reading WWM before writing, using sham "trtmt.s"  6/17/09
I purchased about 2 months ago and he's about 5-6" long in a 36 gallon tank
- 2 clowns, 2 shrimp right now.
<Much too small of a tank for this fish, needs a larger tank now. See here and related FAQs for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/boxfishes.htm .>
He got what appeared to be ich about 4-5weeks ago. Treated with Kick Ich
<5- nitroimidazoles, not an effective treatment.>
without any filters, seemed to get better so put the filters back in, he got it again, so treated for 3 days with
Rally, which seemed to make him really lethargic.
<Are you treating in the main tank? This is rarely a good idea, impossible to maintain therapeutic levels and can wreak havoc on your biofilter.
Rally is Acriflavine, aminoacridine and formalin, which are antiseptics and formaldehyde, not something I would add to my main tank, and with the exception of the formalin of questionable use here.>
He was head down floating in the bubbles for almost 24 hours and then just laying on the bubbles after
that. I immediately changed out 25% of the water, put filters back in and he seemed to get back to normal as far as moving around within 24 hours.
All during this time he had no problems with his appetite or breathing.
Now the ich (or whatever) is back all over him, including his eyes, which also look a little cloudy.
<Not surprising, what are your current water parameter. Test and make you are not seeing a ammonia/nitrite spike which is compounding your issues.>
My fish expert that I buy from is on a cruise and cannot get in touch with her. I don't want to lose this fish. She suggested stopping all treatment until this weekend to see how he does.
<Is better that over treating.>
I give him immo?? Vitamins, and medication and algae in his food.
<Ok>
Do you have any suggestions as to why these treatments have not worked?
Thank you,
Dawn
<To be blunt you are not using effective treatments in my opinion. For a scaleless fish like this I would be treating with either formalin, which is very toxic to both humans and fish but better than copper in this
particular case, or ideally with a Quinine based drug, which while expensive is effective. In either case I would be treating outside the main tank in a dedicated hospital tank. However long term this fish cannot
stay in this sized tank, its just too small. See here for more, and check out the links at the bottom for more excellent articles
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
<Chris>

Marine Ich: Hyposalinity/Ich Attack 4/14/2009
<Hi Wes>
I have a 55 gallon with an ich outbreak.
<Ouch>
1 clown, striped damsel, blenny and a couple of crabs and snails left.
I've been dosing it with Kordon's Ich Attack.
<While I like most of Kordon's products, Ich Attack is pretty much useless.
Any medication that tells you to use it when there are no symptoms as a disease preventative, and to double the dose if the infection is "severe", will not list the ingredients, and states that the best results are achieved when infections are "anticipated" isn't really a medicine.>
The spots on my clown keeps coming back. Its almost a week now since the treatment. I'm considering hypo on the whole tank.
<Hyposalinity is not effective by itself.>
Will hyposalinity kill the beneficial bacteria from my LR and LS? <<It might. RMF>>
<No, but it will harm any invertebrates on your LR and LS. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
The best way to treat ich is to get the infected fish into a hospital\quarantine tank and because you have clownfish, treat with quinine sulfate. You can purchase quinine sulfate at:
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com
You can read more about treatment treating with quinine here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
As an absolute last resort, you can treat your display tank with quinine, but it will kill all snails in your tank and can be toxic to other invertebrates.>
Thanks!
<You're welcome>
Wes
<Mike>

ICH, SW, diag., novel trtmt.s, reading...    3/19/09
HI,
<Hello>
I have a 75 gal saltwater tank that I set up approx. 4wks ago. I have a problem with Aiptasia and have gotten a red legged "Hairy" crab and have gotten 4 peppermint shrimp (which have absolutely no interest in these pest).
<Not uncommon.>
I have 2 clown (Nemo) fish and one sweet lip (juvenile),
<The Sweet Lips will outgrow this tank.>
<<Much more likely to perish, "mysteriously"... RMF>>
I noticed 2 nights ago after a 50% w/c due to high NO2 and NH3 levels. my fish developed what
looks like white sand granules on them. After reading up on this, it sounds like ICH.
<Could be.>
My Sweet Lips has developed this spasm like motion which I assume is to try and rid itself of these parasites. My clowns developed the white spots the next day. My question is, I went to my local saltwater store and they sold me something called Sano Broad Spectrum Organic Reef tank Remedies. I was
told to treat the whole tank with this (leaving all fish in tank).
<Ich should always be treated for in a hospital tank, all effective treatments will cause problems with your biofilter and invertebrate life.>
According to the instruction sheet, this is a 2 days treatment.
<There is no treatment that I have ever heard that is effective that quickly.>
This Sano comes in 2 small bottle ( maybe 10ml each), using 1 drop/5 gal.
This stuff is very expensive
$47. Have you ever heard of this stuff?
<Have not, but checked out their website, I don't put much faith in this treatment.>
I went to local Pet Supplies and they had several ICH remedies for much cheaper $5. Please help. my Sweet Lips was $50 and I'd hate to lose her or my clowns to this.
<Stick with what is proven to work, see here for more
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm ,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm .>
Thanks
Mitzi
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Question about treatment for crypt, won't work f' – 02/28/09
Hi Bob, Eric, Sara, Scott, and everyone else I have spoken to or met!
<Kerstin>
Long time no talk...I seem to finally be recovering under the weight of all my volunteer duties (school, scouts, etc.), and so... It has been a while since I have written, but of late I have been perusing, trying to find an answer...and would love to have an input on what my friend and I seem to be doing wrong (honest - it's her tank...I am even providing her name this time!).
Here's the history: Jo Ann and I moved her tank on Feb. 7. It is a 29-gallon set up with an AquaC skimmer and an AquaClear 110 converted to a refugium. The entire move - removing the then sole fish (a centropyge acanthops), the rocks and corals, and then moving the tank, adding a little bit more sand, and returning the corals, rocks, and fish, took just over 3 hours. At the same time, since she had just rearranged the tank (removed his territory) and effectively done a 30% water change, she added the yellow tang she had been keeping in QT.
<... this volume is too small for a Zebrasoma>
All seemed fine, and everyone was getting along great...until Valentine's Day.
On this day Jo Ann came home from a trade show to discover that the centropyge had crypt. Because she didn't call me until 9 that evening, we waited until the next morning; however, by the early afternoon on the next day, she had a 20-gallon quarantine tank set up with both fish in it. Only the centropyge had the white spots, but to be safe, she put both fish in the QT (along with 2 plastic rocks that could provide hiding places for them). By Monday we had gotten a hold of our usual LFS; after much searching, the only medicine we could get a hold of was Rid Ich, and she proceeded to do that treatment. The centropyge responded (or the crypt simply decided, as is its wont) to drop off, and all seemed to be progressing...regular water changes to the QT, and all seemed fine. Skip forward a week to this past Monday...
To make sure her fish were doing alright, Jo Ann asked me to come by. When we looked at her fish and ran a bunch of tests, we determined that:
- a. her centropyge looked slimy (primarily on the blue portion of his body),
- b. her tang had some fin problems (a few pinholes in his fins, and a slight split in the top and bottom fins -
<Could be the move, being new, the RidIch...>
he had this problem in his previous QT, and had healed up during the short week in the display tank), and
- c. while the QT's ammonia was 0, the nitrites and nitrates weren't (still on the chart for the API test kit, but not by much). pH is 8.2, Specific Gravity 1.025; temp had been raised to 80 to help (hopefully) speed up the crypt's lifecycle.
At this point, we did several things:
- 1. I loaned her my HOT filter - we did a lopsided water change (removed 3 gallons, added 7 to truly top off the tank), and then we first ran charcoal to get rid of any remaining RidIch before she put the micron-filter cartridge in the HOT
- 2. we also had called the LFS, and his suggestion was the LifeGard treatment for the Centropyge's fungus, which we started. Admittedly, somewhere in there, she misunderstood the directions, and the first night she ran the Lifegard while also having the filter cartridge in the filter...so the treatment may not have done any good.
<Agreed>
The problem is that the next morning, after starting the treatment with the Lifegard, the nitrates and nitrites were both off the chart...despite the small water change and running the filter. Also, the slime seemed to be worse. Today the slime seems to still be there, the centropyge is opening his mouth more as if to breather better, the tang doesn't seem to be any better or worse, and the white crypt spots seem to be back.
So my questions are:
1. Are we following the right route?
<Right? I would have not used the AS product... I would have removed the chemical filtrant>
I finally found a source of the quinine sulfate - Crypt Pro, at NationalFishPharm.com - and it sounds like it would cure everything the centropyge is suffering from.
2. Would it help to move the skimmer to the QT tank; then simply run it with a bleach solution once the QT period is over?
<Is one approach>
It is my understanding, along with some bigger water changes, that this would help reduce the nitrites and nitrates.
<The water changes, change out is what I'd do at this point>
3. Would huge (I am thinking 50%) water changes on a daily basis to the QT be the best option?
<Likely so>
4. Do you have any other ideas - either of what else we can do, or what we possibly did wrong?
<All posted on WWM>
I greatly appreciate all of your help - Jo Ann has done lots of reading on articles I sent here, we thought we followed all the various instructions we had read, with the exception of having the hardest time finding the Quinine - and our LFS didn't have any copper, which is not great for angels anyway.
<Agreed... but there are other techniques... an intermittent/intermediate bath (FW, pH-adjusted... likely with formalin) might have effected a cure at such an early juncture>
Thanks in advance for your advice, and I apologize for the lengthy email - somehow I just thought this all started with the move, and so I thought I would include the whole history.
BTW, I enjoyed rereading Scott's article about what a wonder small water changes done often will do - it seems to be helping with my recurring Bryopsis
<Look into small Cowries... Cypraea moneta, C. caputserpentis...>
and other hair algae problem...
Hope you're having a great day,
Kerstin:-)
<I do hope all works out there. Again, the Yellow Tang can't live long, well in a 29 gal. Bob Fenner>

Addendum to "Question about treatment for crypt"– 02/28/09
Before you ask - I just wanted to mention (I always seem to think of more stuff later...no matter how long I take to compose the email):
- Both the tang and angel are eating well. They get not only a mix of the Ocean Nutrition flakes, but also the Spectrum pellets and, every other day, some Nori on a clip.
- We have contemplated also the possible donation to the QT of a live rock - that would afterwards of course become a base rock from being boiled and dried.
<Don't do this... will absorb any chemical treatment>
- While Jo Ann would like to do a 6-8 week quarantine separate from the DT (make sure the ich cycle is truly broken), would it be better from a stress point of view to return the two fish to the DT to help them recover better (ie. is the angelfish suffering more from the stress than the crypt itself, hence the film on him and the fin damage to the tang?).
<Is another route to go... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above... till you understand the gist>
Didn't know if that information helps or not...again, Jo Ann and I thank you in advance for all your help.
Kerstin:-)
<Welcome. BobF>

Ich., Treatments 2/25/09
Hi,
<Hello>
Do you guys have any views on a product
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/NeoPlex.html for the treatment of Ich?
Regards,
Adam.
<NeoPlex is an antibiotic, neomycin sulfate, as stated on that page, and not an effective treatment for Ich.>
<Chris>

Ich Day 22  1/4/09 Hello, <Good morrow> I recently acquired a pink tail trigger, and he was infested with Cryptocaryon, aka ich. I have him in hypo in a qt tank and am now at day 22 of being at or below 1.009 SG. There is no visible sign of reduced white spots. I Googled the chloramine <Mmm, no... Chloroquine... not chloramine...> phosphate and looks like I can't get it locally. Should I wait another week with this hypo, <...> or just resign to treating with chloramine phosphate? I put my clownfish in the qt as well, because he was exposed to the trigger. The clown had no signs of ich until the 16th day, and now has visible spots as well. <So it goes too often with hyposalinity. Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I4/hyposalinity/OST.htm and the linked FAQs files at the bottom> The temperature is now at 80F but was 78F for the first two and a half weeks. I've attached a picture of the trigger at Day 22 in hypo. <See the mucus markings on this fish? I do hope its kidneys have not been permanently damaged> Not quite sure I understood what one of the links was talking about when it mentioned swapping between tanks daily. <Mmm, likely someone is referring to attempts at Crypt eradication by vacuuming or dumping out system water daily... to remove the tomites... "off host" stage of this Protozoan> Does that mean buy two heaters, two filters, two tanks or was it implied that the heater, light and filter would rotate daily as well? <Could mean this... or as I state, simply vacuuming the bottom of the one...> 30 gals a day of RODI water is a lot! I thought a 30 gal tank was already small for the trigger; would two 10 gal tanks work or is that just asking for more trouble? <How big is this specimen? Actually... let us "cut to the chase"... and I'll state that I would not go the hypo route period... It's not working here (rarely does)... See the Crypt section: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and peruse the MANY linked files above... and get on with a copper  treatment here before your fishes are dead from stress> I guess I am just looking for some more guidance on which path to take. Thanks in advance, Alison <Read on my friend, read on. Bob Fenner>

ick attach... Kordon product    11/25/08
Hi, a fellow reefer has a RBTA and used ick attach in their tank. They have a RBTA in the tank that is not doing very well. I know what your going to say treat fish in separate tank. Question is just how harmful is this ick attack to the BTA?
<... see WWM re... I am not a fan of this product period, nor its exposure/use in display systems, particularly ones with invertebrates.
We've recently had someone write in accounting for a bad reaction with an anemone and this product>
Active ingredients: 5% active ingredients (multiple natural herbals containing Napthoquinone)
They emailed you but have not received an answer. They are very worried about the RBTA, any advice would be helpful, I will pass it on.
Thank you, Linda
<I would treat the fishes elsewhere... allow the system to go "fish-less" (sans hosts) for several weeks... as detailed on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Kordon Ich Attack and Effects 11/23/08
Hi WWM,
A fellow RC'er directed me to you to ask a question regarding some problems I am having. . A friend of mine dosed Kordon's Ich Attack in her 45gallon a year ago, in order to save a fish that was covered in ich. (She knows now not to mess with medication after I warned her) The product worked and it save the fish. But she did notice every time that she dosed, her RBTA would shrink, and turn all black. But would eventually return to its normal form.
The treatment went on for 2 weeks. After that she did a large water change and ran carbon. This medication says that its organic so she assumes it safe.
<...? A common mis/understanding... being "organic" implies only that the compound/molecules involved contain the element carbon... or to a lesser understanding, that the material originates from life somehow... There are MANY such chemicals that are deadly toxic>
How ever as time passed the bubble tip anemone bleached a bit, and shrunk in size. Its been about 8 month since the treatment, and the anemone still looks the same. It has not take back its original color or grown in size, but it still eats. Its mouth is also slightly open, I don't know what's going on and the last time I tested her water her nitrates were a bit high. So I don't know if its the medication that's messing with it or just poor water quality. I would like to also know if you have any experience with this so called Ich Attack
Active ingredients: 5% active ingredients (multiple natural herbals containing Naphthoqu
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12100
<I do have some background with this material (and the company, Kordon/Novalek, and the previous owner/originator, Bob Rofen). The gist of what I am able and comfortable in relating is that this material is not always safe nor effective. I do not endorse its use, particularly in an established "mixed" fish and invertebrate setting. I do want to state that I am a "fan" of most of Kordon's products and Dr. Rofen's efforts in our interest however. Bob Fenner>

Naso Tang 007, hlth.   10/14/08 Dear Crew, First off, thank you for a wonderful web-site. I just happen upon it a few weeks ago and thoroughly enjoying reading all the vast amount of information. It's very commendable of you to offer such a tremendous service. I do own a copy of CMA. Great book Dr. Fenner! <Mmm, no doctorate, just Bob, please> I'm somewhat of a newbie in that I left the hobby several years ago as time constraints (i.e. 3 children) along with moving to new residence kept me from re-establishing my tank. Anyhow, my reason for writing today is that I am starting up my 300 gal. FOWLR and have made my first fish purchase. One of the fish being a 6" Blonde Naso Tang. This fish was offered at discount through the retailer (F&S) you mention on your web-site frequently. (I wonder if it had been in their tank for long period of time, thus the reason for the discounted price?) <Possibly> I received the fish on Weds. afternoon and by Sat. morning he developed what appears to me to be Lateral Line Disease. I am attaching a picture for your review. <I see> The Naso was placed in quarantine tank 30 gal.(4' x 1' x 1' ) upon receipt on Weds. 10/08. The water in the quarantine tank is being treated each day with Kordon's Prevent Ich per their instructions. <Mmm, won't "treat" HLLE... in fact the ingredients here, the further stress... will drive all the other direction> Water parameters are as follows: spg 1.023, <Mmm, low, but likely better here for gas exchange purposes> ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates <5, temp. 76, ph 8.2. He is currently not accepting food i.e. mysis shrimp, krill dip in vita-chem, red algae w/garlic sheets, flakes, etc. <Stop! I would move this fish (back) into the 300 gallon setting... The etiology/causative mechanism of the syndrome shown won't "spread" as a consequence to other livestock... and otherwise the chance of this fish resolving is very small> He is not actively swimming around tank, occasional stroll and then sits on bottom. <More bad behavior> Today, Monday, he has started gilling. I have been using a power head position right at the water-line to agitate the surface so that there's plenty of air mixing with the water. <Mmm, not for this species... Move it> Could you please confirm my diagnoses and provide any other information on treatment as well as suggestions on what else can be done to save him. I read all that I could find own your web-site with respect HIHLL and seems to me that the general consensus for its cause is related to nutrition and water quality. <Yes, this is so> With that being the case, what could have caused this condition in such a short period of time (3 1/2 days) given the water parameters? <Stress period... as you speculate, just how long has this fish been kept, moved about in sub-par conditions?> Your response most appreciated. <Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Emailing: Naso Tag 007... reading... Crypt    10/14/08 Thank you Bob for your response. <Welcome Scott> Sorry about calling you Dr. but, a man of with your wealth of knowledge and experience certainly qualifies you to be one. Just wanted to clarify a few things. First off, the Tang did perish yesterday afternoon ( I wish I had received your reply sooner as I would have acted on your advise to move him). Secondly, I was following the personal recommendation of one Kordon's scientist/marine biologist who said I should quarantine all tangs for about six weeks <Mmm, please see at least WWM re my opinions here and rationale for same... we differ> and treat the quarantine tank initially with Kordon's organic Prevent Ich product <... and my input re this product. NOT reliable> for seven days and stop if no Ich presents. He stated that Tangs were notorious for carrying Ich <This is so> and by using this product it would likely eradicate any internal/external parasites( I assumed he wasn't giving me a sales pitch!). <Mostly> The HIHLL problem did not present until after nearly two days of quarantining. <Likely the Kordon product was more cause here...> I did not realize that the product in question would create additional stress as there is no information to contrary on Kordon's Prevent Ich label/ web-site. Thirdly, I did not do a freshwater dip as your web-site seemed to indicate that this method should not be utilized for Tangs unless parasites were observed on the fish prior to placing it in the quarantine tank. Would this have made a difference for this fish? <Perhaps... but... only can guess> So should I be employing a different strategy for my quarantining fish? <... you should... read> This Kordon product is somewhat new and does not require water changes during treatment (tremendous benefit). <... again, take a look on the BBs... others input... Kordon is a good co., with many fine products... this is not one of them> All other fish, yellow tang, blue hippo, and one spot fox face seem to be doing fine during this treatment. Thank you again for your time. Scott <BobF>

Ich, copper and DT    7/24/08 Hello, <Hi there> I was wondering if you could offer some advice in regards to my ich problem. I have a 150gal FOWLR display tank and a 40gal QT. Unfortunately the fish I have are too many and too large to be able to treat in my QT. So after doing some research I came to the conclusion that the best course of action is to remove the LR from the DT, put it in a large container with salt water, heater and powerhead, remove all my inverts and place them in my separate fuge, then treat the DT and fish with copper. <... a very poor idea> What do you think? Would you advise this? <No and no> The DT would have only the fish and 1" live sand. <... the copper won't stay in solution, and you'll be killing most all in the LS> There would be no inverts or LR at all. <So?> I plan to treat using Cupramine. <A good product I'll warrant, but won't work here> How long should I treat the tank? <I wouldn't... you'll find that you are unable to "keep" a therapeutic dose of copper in such a setting... too quickly adsorbed...> Would 3 weeks get rid of the ich on the fish and the DT? The live rock, I would leave in the separate container for 6 weeks and I would leave the fuge disconnected from the main sump also for 6 weeks. Thank you for any help you can provide. -Peter <Happy to banter with you... If you're set on trying a cure in the main set-up, I'd look into (and quickly) the use of Chloroquine phosphate... the search tool, on WWM, the Net... Bob Fenner> Re: Ich, copper and DT   7/24/08 Hello, <Peter> Thank you for the quick reply. <Deemed necessary... as is this resp. here> So the copper treatment would be ineffective because the copper would be absorbed by the live sand and keeping the correct concentration would be difficult? <Adsorbed> Would I be able to keep the correct concentration if I test the copper level daily and add as necessary? <No... have tried this... with many gallons of Cupramine... in commercial settings... over decades of time... You don't have to repeat my lack of success. Won't work> Would hyposalinity work better in this case? Maybe keep the display tank and fish in hypo for 4 weeks. <... sorry to state, I don't have time to re-write all of this... IS posted on WWM, in books, articles penned by me...> I understand the live sand would die in both cases. But with hyposalinity, it would re-populate once the live rock is added back to the tank. Plus I would be able to return the inverts once the treatment is over. Something I can't do if using copper. Thank you for the suggestion of using Chloroquine phosphate. I will research it on the net and WWM. -Peter <I would... and quickly. BobF>

Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite... Commercial Crypt remedies, prevention  - 07/19/08
Hello, I was wondering if anyone on the team has had any good experience with giving a marine fish with crypt a freshwater bath in place of a more 'solid' technique, such as copper treatment or hyposalinity (not that hypo is Bob's favorite)?
<Some folks report success with such... perhaps their trials involve fishes with only superficial infestations... maybe these are principally only symptomatic...>
I'm more of a Cupramine guy myself (in a separate treatment tank), but it seems my employer would like me to use freshwater baths exclusively in the main display / selling tanks which also house invertebrate life.
<Mmm... I strongly suggest that they, you do a bit of further considering here... I would do FW baths on arrival (pH adjusted, with formalin if a commercial setting)... and even better to best, keep all incoming fish livestock quarantined for a few weeks before showing, offering it to the public... I would NOT mix fish and invertebrate livestock in a wholesale or retail setting... period>
No option for separate treatment in a different tank. So while not my favorite option it will probably still give results and just wanted to fine tune it with some input. If you could tell me your frequency of the bath, duration of the bath you find effective.
<Won't be... like the idea of invading countries, murdering their citizens to "make people free", this idea is contrary to reality. How to put this another way... it won't work>
And if you combo it with gravel vacuuming - water change, the frequency and percentage of water changed. If you use any other methods with it such as melafix
<... API should be sued back to the stone ages for this and other faux products and their promotion. Really. Have stated this often and loudly enough. This product is garbage>
for bacterial infections of crypt wounds or cleaner gobies / shrimp to lending a helping hand, or anything else which might contribute to a recovery.
<All this is gone over and over on WWM>
I was considering fw bath repeated daily for 14 days,
<... no... too much time, trouble, and stress on the fish livestock. Ridiculous>
7 min duration, gravel vacuuming bottom of tank 5 gallons out of 60 every fourth day or so, melafix dosed daily,
<Please...>
few cleaning shrimp there for luck.
<Don't rely on luck...>
Considering use of a U.V. sterilizer instead of melafix, but not likely. Trading out treatment of secondary infections for a unknown increased destruction of the parasites free swimming stage. experience and suggestions appreciated, and thank you for your time, Jonathan
<Thank you for sharing Jonathan. A note to browsers through time... this is actually an indicative case, window into the thinking, operation of the trade... A reminder that many folks, though honest, of good intent, don't really know much re the science of actual husbandry of ornamental aquatics. Bob Fenner>

Re: Alternative treatment for a common marine parasite, Crypt  07/20/2008
Again my hand is forced by my employer's policy, ie p*tco.
<Mmm, do know that I worked at corp... as a consultant/buyer for this co. 91-94... to bring in/make sense of aquatic livestock... Quite an ordeal>
I don't agree with the policy and have been close to walking out of door, and have been saddened by the loss of life that could have been prevented through dedicated quarantine / treatment systems.
<I... empathize>
Either you quit / walk out or try to make the broken toy work for spoiled child. Have had results on using melafix to clear up bad eyes and slight bacterial damage, not as a treatment for crypt as some people desire it to be. There was one post by someone who was using the daily freshwater bath method from your crew, the individual who received this suggestion responded by saying something to the effect of "wow, everyday? That's harsh", to which the crew replied <so is copper>
<Yes>
The fish has to be returned to the same tank it came from, ie the infested tank. One could give the fish a freshwater bath and put it into a different tank with healthy fish, but its likely that bath won't sterilize the animal of it and it will get the others sick. The freshwater bath / gravel vacuum technique is used by others I have read, usually as a hell-bent way of "I'm definitely not using a separate treatment tank", "I don't want to treat the main display with any medication or altering of the salinity", "I can't afford a sterilizer which may or may not anything", and agreed the cleaner shrimp are manly pretty placebos.
<... I encourage you to make a presentation... ask for some time to meet with the store, then Regional (Op.s) Manager... to in turn present your input, ideas to corporate/San Diego... to change whatever policy. Particularly "On Arrival" acclimation/baths to largely prevent the introduction of these parasites, their establishment in your systems>
The variables I can control are how often I give the bath and its duration. How frequent I gravel vacuum the bottom of the tank and how much water I take out. I do remember another member of WWM crew claiming to have effected a cure of a flame angel by daily vacuuming of a 10 gallon bare bottom tank 50% premade saltwater.
<It/this can be done... but does take dedication, time... You seem to understand the underlying principles>
I can't do that volume with a 60, but I can do its frequency if there is results. In this limited situation Would freshwater bath every 3rd or 4th or 5th day with daily vacuuming be more appropriate?
<Yes>
As for freshwater baths upon arrival, I have done those,
<Ah, good... with formalin and aeration I hope/trust>
and continue to do so for tangs and fish that frequently have this problem. But even in a tank that contains only fish delivered that week, and has had no previous problem for months, to which all were given proper freshwater baths crypt still does break out, so while doing proper fresh water baths on arrival probably reduces the frequency of its occurrence its probably not stone cold guarantee you won't get it.
The last paragraph in your reply is understandable considering the items I suggested. Its not that I want to do them its that I'm handcuffed to poor equipment and policy. Have risked my job and changed things and gotten good results using a 'communal copper treatment tank' for those who developed problems (ie crypt). And even that is not an answer to all the various and different problems that can present itself. I just don't have enough dedicated treatment tanks, allowances to recovery all that can be recovered. Not that I lack the knowledge to do so.
Sorry to go on,
No one on the crew has any recommendations for this compromised procedure? Frequency/duration of bath, frequency, percentage of gravel vacuum water change?
<Five-seven minutes... daily, all the gravel vacuumed>
I think 'ridiculous' was what I first thought about doing this as an alternative to a more proven technique.
<Just... not something I want to encourage carte blanche (on the Net)... as a likely procedure that will be successful for all... too much work, too stressful, too likely to not work>
cheers,
hand cuffed employee
<Perhaps a move/stint in an independent shop... Bob Fenner>

Ich problem resurfacing... reading re Crypt  - 7/1/08
Hi Crew !
<Abhi>
First of all thanks a zillion for such a marvelous site. Have a 145 gallon tank , can't say its a fowler / reef , as it has three anemones , three starfish, two Featherdusters but no corals at all.
Had a problem with ich in Jan this year, so i had run the display tank fallow for 2 months with hyposalinity at 1.19 SG. The tank has a sand bed of variable thickness at different places ranging from 3-6 inches, also approx 300 lbs of live rock.
I had also treated the tank with copper
<Err... an error>
(Cuprazin from Waterlife) During that period, also the fishes in the quarantine period, still had lost my Emperor and Blue ring angels, an 8 inch Mata tang.
The tank had been running fine since then from March till mid of this month, when the ich resurfaced.
<Is resident... won't go here>
Had done a mistake last month of buying a fish without checking the details first, was told its a red reef wrasse , but when i searched later on the site it turned to be Lyretail Grouper. This one did produce some aggression in tank which was not there earlier due to which i lost my majestic angel and a Clarkii clown. Have returned the grouper now.
Current tank mates :
1. Lavender Tang 5-6 inch
2. Fox Face 5-6 inch
3. Bird Wrasse 5-6 inch
4. Clarkii clown 2-3 inch
5. Lion fish ( Volitans) 4 inch
6. Webbed Lion fish 4 inch
7. Thick lipped wrasse 3-4 inch ( will be removed soon)
8. Moorish Idol 3-4 inch ( 3 days old in the tank )
9. Orange tail File fish 3 inch
10. Odonus Trigger 3 inch ( 1 day old in tank, got as a replacement for the
grouper )
11. Powder Brown Sturgeon 3.5 inch
I feed the fishes a mixture of Hikari marine megabite red and green , NLS Thera +A , Sera granumarin, O.S.I shrimp pellets, HBH veggie flakes, Tetra Doro Marin granules, bloodworms, pearl shrimps. this mixture is fed twice a day. Supplemented with Spinach, coriander , lettuce.
<I'd delete the terrestrial greens... Do nothing for the livestock nutritionally... Look into marine algae...>
Twice a week frozen prawns and Julian Sprung's sea weed is fed.
Since last two weeks i see itch on the Lavender Tang in the mornings and a little bit on the Powder brown.
<Most typical>
No other fish shows the signs as of yet and there is no scratching from any of the fishes. SG is at 1.02 as of now.
Should i wait and see the itch grow or diminish, or should i medicate the tank?
<... no sense adding "medicine" to the display tank... the calcareous material will preclude there being a continuous/physiological dose present... by absorption>
Catching the fish now would mean removing the whole live rock , which stress the other fishes also.
<This is what needs to be done>
I know a few of these fishes will outgrow this tank, but i have a plan of upgrading to something like a 500 Gallon in a year or two.
Will garlic do any good , coz on the site and other places there are various views about that.
<Not enough>
Should there be any change in the food coz the Tang, Fox Face and the Powder Brown , all three do not pick on any sort of algae in the tank. which does surface from time to time in the tank and i specially also grow that for them only.
Tank has a nice red coralline algae with a bit or purple shades coming in now.
Should i Alter the fish combination or could this setup run like this for a year + ?
Thanks a lot in advance, you guys are the best !
Abhi.
--
Adios Amigos
<... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to Crypt... Bob Fenner>

Para Guard Contamination   6/23/08
Hi crew,
<Hello Rick! Benjamin here today.>
Presently running a 90 gallon system with 110 lbs of live rock, ocellaris clown, Scopas tang, royal Gramma, green chromis, dragon goby and Foxface. Refugium/sump with healthy Chaetomorpha. Present parameters as follows: PH 8.4, SG 1.024, Nitrate 5, Ammonia and nitrite non-detectible.
<Good>
RedOx hovers between 295 and 310. Aqua C skimmer with ozone injection through a the John Guest fitting. For 10 months after set-up, the system was thriving (RedOx closer to 360) ... elegance coral, pulsing xenia, devil's hand and finger coral all thriving. 6 hermits, turbo snails, feather dusters, worms, shrimp, etc., etc. But then ... For some absolutely unknown reason, I treated my main tank with Para Guard (synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green and fish protective polymers - as advertised as basically reef-safe)
<definitely not the case>
for early signs of ick - if you can believe it just a couple "dots" on the Scopas which a couple new neon gobies and "Selcon" soaked food seemed to help take care of - no "scratching, dots, etc." in last couple months (I know, this has been an expensive lesson - I'm still shaking my head?).
<Ouch. I would never recommend 'proactive' medication, as the repercussions/stress of the meds may actually stress the fish enough to cause an infection. Although if you suspected the tang of possessing WMDs, I guess that's good enough reason for Congress to take the preemptive route...>
Invertebrates are now gone, live rock looks dead - small amounts of diatoms on live rock now present but not infested.
<Malachite green, formalin will do that.>
I've never missed a 5 gallon weekly water change. Fish continue to do very well - eat well and appear happy.
<Well, glad they didn't suffer for it. Sometimes these formaldehyde and malachite medications can really mess them up too- keep in mind that malachite green is a heavy carcinogen and vertebrate poison, as well as the fact that formaldehyde at relatively low concentrations will embalm a specimen almost indefinitely (when Twinkies, etc are unavailable)>
I added a 2 hermits and a turbo snail 5 days ago, but they slowly deteriorated from the get-go.
<Bad sign.>
Finally my questions - assuming the medication (poison) has regrettably gotten me to this point, I've been using activated carbon (weekly changes) over the past month in an attempt to "pull the medication" out of the system, but the recent snail/crab incident tells me I've still got problems. 1) How/what can I "test" to determine if my system is invertebrate "safe"
<The bad news is, you can't really. Your rock and sand will be slowly leaching the poison back into the water (mostly the malachite, a dye) for a very, very long time. I'm the sort who would probably wait decades, or just never try, but if you feel okay about a canary in the mine shaft a few snails or crabs in another month or two would be a decent check. Bear in mind you will be able to keep hardy inverts (arthropods, etc) long before cnidarians.>
2) Assuming I get to a point where my system is invertebrate safe, by adding some additional "live rock", will this "reseed" the deserted rock I presently have.
<With time, yes. The eventual purchase of some top-grade rock from a LR specialist would help restore macrofauna, but even standard LFS stuff ought restore your bacteria and crustacean populations, diversity.>
Greatly appreciate the help ... and fell free to give me a good boot in the but for my knee-jerk stupidity.
<I suspect you've booted yourself enough- this is a mistake a lot of us have made, don't feel too rough on yourself. Tolstoy wrote that "What matters is life, life alone, the continuous and infinite process of discovering it, not the discovery itself." Continue discovering, learning, enjoying.>
Rick in Edmonton.
<Benjamin>

Ich, Reef Safe Medication 5/31/08
Hi, I had a few questions here I need the answer to.
<Ok>
First of all, can snowflake morays get ich?
<Yes>
No matter how many times I have ich, my snowflake never has any white spots.
<They are pretty resilient, but can still harbor ich.>
Second, Do you like the NO-ICH medicine by FishVet?
<I believe the active ingredient is 5-Nitroimidazoles, and no I do not.>
It is said to be reef safe and I would like to have some just to be safe.
<Not safe for your reef tank.>
Lastly, How many purple Firefish should I get for my 30 gallon?
<One>
I have a percula clown in there and I wanted to add some more fish after the Firefish too.
<A 30 gallon does not have a whole lot of room, I would not have more than 3 fish in that sized tank.>
Thanks!
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich outbreak in a 36 gal mixed reef 4/21/08
Greetings WWM crew,
<Hello>
Happy Monday. Hope you all are having a good day.
<Can't complain too much.>
I wish I didn't have to write this email, but I have spent many hours reading FAQs and articles for the last week and a half about marine ich to the point where my head is spinning. I know what I need to do, I just don't seem to be able to get it done.
About 12 days ago, Ich raised it's ugly head in my 36 gallon mixed reef. The tank is just over 8 months old and the only recent addition (2 weeks ago) to the tank was a Lysmata A, prior to that nothing has been added for 2 and half months. Put him in when I noticed the first white spots.
Unfortunately the shrimp hasn't shown any real inclination to clean my fish even though they line up for him.
<This happens more often than not in captivity, not much can be done about it.>
I have been trying, unsuccessfully, for the last 10 days to catch my fish so I could move them to a hospital tank for treatment and allow my main tank to go fallow. I have 50+ lbs of live rock in the tank and there are just too many escape routes and hiding places.
<Often necessary to remove the rock unfortunately.>
I lost my Kole Tang on Friday of last week.
<For future stocking, this tank is way too small for a tang.>
The remaining fish are a percula clown, 2 green chromis and a filamented wrasse. I have some soft corals (2 mushroom rocks, xenia and toadstool leather) and an open brain. The one thing that keeps me from wanting to tear down the tank is my rose BTA. Corals and anemone are all doing very well, and I'm concerned if I start tinkering with my tank it will have an adverse affect on the anemone.
<It may, but if done carefully it should be ok. Also see WWM about keeping corals and anemones in tanks together, especially smaller tanks.>
My LFS recommended a product called Rally, however, I am very reluctant, based on what I've read, to use any of the so called "reef safe" additives.
<They are either ineffective or toxic, neither is good.>
Quite frankly, I have read much good about them, and believe they'll do more harm than good.
<Agreed>
I've started incorporating NL Spectrum's Thera+A pellets into the feeding regimen.
Is it possible that temperature swings of 2 to 2.5 degrees F would have been enough to stress the fish to the point where it could have weakened their immune system?
<Is possible although that is not too bad of a swing.>
Since the weather has warmed somewhat, my tank temperature seems to fluctuate more then it has in the past.
<Easiest to just raise the temperature a degree or two and increase circulation.>
At this point, I'm just feeling kind of helpless and hopeless. My apologies if I've rambled on.
<No worries.>
Is there anything else you might recommend I try short of tearing my tank apart to remove the fish?
<That is your best bet at treating, otherwise just good water quality and food is all you can really do.>
Also, just wanted to say thanks for all great information and time you all spend to make this site such a great resource.
Thanks,
Mike
<Sounds like you know what you need to do, just can be tough to go through it.>
<Chris>

Marine ICH, Treatment 4/21/08
Hi Crew,
<Hello>
It was just 2 weeks ago that I emailed you guys to help me identify my ocellaris clown (black and white). Since then I have purchased a friend for him. Everything is fine until now. We notice when we purchase a yellow tang that he's scrapping to the rocks and ask the local fish shop if his okay and was told that it should be fine as long there's no white spots on them. A few days later, we notice the blue tang starts doing the same thing and 3 days after that, I can see the white spot just underneath his skin. We rushed to another fish store (because my local fish store closed on weekend). Given triple SULFA, but we didn't trust their opinion as much and we thought it will be better to do water change and wait until our local open up.
<Won't help with Ich.>
We went to our LFS and do water test and everything was normal. Then we were given VERTONEX by Aquasonic (contains malachite green) and told them that we don't have a QT.
<Toxic stuff.>
They mentioned that it works like a dye but weren't told that it could also turn the silicone and some of our live rocks into patches of BLUE. (but our fishes come first then anything else).
<I would not have used this, especially in the main tank. Hopefully a QT tank will be a priority to purchase after this experience.>
We follow the instructions, to use it for 6 ml (for our tank: 150 litres)
<Too small for any tangs really.>
for 4 days. 4 days on, the blue tang look better and we thought that it's working, then we do the water test and shocked that the nitrate was roofing crazily.
<The Malachite Green is killing off your live rock and bio-filter.>
We then purchased 30 litres of sea water and do water change that night. 2 days after, the blue tang and the yellow tang got this glassy eye and the blue tang look like when you print a document and your printer is running low on toner. If you know what I mean.
<Result of the drop in water quality, but both will quickly outgrow that tank and need to find new homes anyway.>
We are absolutely desperate of how to help him get through this.
<Improved water quality, less toxic treatment in a hospital tank.>
I have prepared another 12 litres of salt water to do water change tonight and should I follow the other local fish shop to put in the triple-SULFA as instructed?
<I would not.>
Should I add in carbon to take the malachite green of the water (if yes, in the actual tank hook it on the top or inside the filter).
<Yes, inside the filter.>
We have the EHEIM Classic 2217. I'm sorry for the lengthy email, but really your response is the ONLY thing that we can trust at this point of time.
Thank you SO MUCH for your help.
Best Regard,
Delia Suteja
<Not much can be done here with a hospital tank. Malachite Green is high toxic and may have caused permanent damage to the LR, and the Triple Sulfa will not effect the Ich parasite. Best bet now is to increase water quality and try to get them to eat. About all you can do without a separate tank for treatment. Also, neither tang will do well in such a small tank, so it will be worth looking for a new home for them.>
<Chris>

Probiotic Marine Formula 3/20/08
Hello-can't find much info on this product's effectiveness or actual intended use.
<Active ingredients sodium chloride and Nitrofurazone.>
The few complaints I have seen on forums claim it did not cure Ich infections in their display tank.
<The active ingredients in this product can not treat parasitic infections.>
I purchased a bottle and the label does not state that treating the display tank for sick fish is it's purpose. The only information on the bottle is it is to be used for preventive maintenance.
<Bet lawyers had a hand in that.>
I just wanted to know if this product can prevent healthy fish from getting bacterial infections, specifically Vibrio and if it is safe for my display tank
without any long term negative effects.
Thanks, Dane
<I would not treat the tank prophylacticallly and I have my doubts that this product will prevent much of anything.>
<Chris><<Well-stated Chris... right to the point... RMF>>

Yet another case of crypt... and RMF's ongoing crap attempts at sarcasm   3/9/08
Hey crew!
<Howzit?>
I'd really like to field a question to you guys.
<Well, okay!>
From what I gather on the site, copper or comparable alternatives are best bets in a hospital tank treating crypt, along with hyposaline conditions (<1.010) if the fish can handle it for 6-8 weeks while the main tank goes fallow.
<Mmm, depends... on what means by "best", the species involved, their apparent health otherwise...>
I've been going in circles with the LFS which have been insisting that upgrading to a much larger UV filter and supplementing food with garlic along with vitamin C will cure crypt.
<Mmm, will not... I'll bet you any sum in the universe>
They've made claims that they've cured massive outbreaks of crypt in their 2400 gallon show tank this way.
<Mmm, define "cured">
In a lack of judgment I listened. You've probably already guessed it didn't work.
<What a shock! Okay... am terrible at cheap drama>
While I was doing this (since I had my doubts from the beginning) I've put together a quarantine tank and the only thing left to do is move the fish.
Our current setup is a 180gal FOWLR (since our xenia died within minutes of adding a teaspoon of concentrated garlic...)
<Yummy on pizza, some soups... and not too bad for breath... as long as all are consuming... Oh, back to your story>
We have a 6" powder blue tang, 6" Koran angel, 2.5" flame angel, two 4" yellow head sleeper gobies, very large tentacle anemone, 1.5" black/white false percula clown, couple cleaner shrimp, 1" yellowtail damsel, 1" striped damsel, and a handful of turbo snails/stars/etc. Tank is approximately 4-5 months old, our first attempt at saltwater... and either the powder blue tang or the Koran introduced the ich (last two fish added)
<Easily done... not quarantined...>
We're running wet/dry with a 40gal sump, couple 1200gph return pumps, needle wheel skimmer, and 50 watts of UV on one side of the return, along with 200 watts of HOT5 and 400 watts of PC.
I've also put together a 56gal column hospital tank with identical water parameters (1.022 salinity, 82F temp, 8.4PH...) with a canister filter (no carbon), small UV filter, bare bottom with PVC pipe for fish hiding decor to use as the quarantine tank.
I've got cold feet. If at all possible I do not want to put the fish through the stress of being moved. They are all eating fine and active, although the Koran seems to scratch himself on the aragonite and the rest of the fish seem to fling their bodies against the water jetting into the tank, like they are trying to knock something off of them. Is there absolutely anything I can do to deal with the ich without putting the fish through the move between tanks?
<Sure... seek to strike a "balance" of sort; like the 2,400 gallon tank folks... See WWM re Parasitic Marine Tanks...>
This just feels like too many fish to quarantine in such a small tank and I've got a gut feeling they wont all survive the juggling.
Thanks in advance for all of your help and insight... because of this site and Bob's book I've had exceptional fortune keeping fish alive, and I want to do everything in my power to "right" the situation I've caused through poor quarantine practices.
David
<Read on!: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and as much of the linked files above as you can stomach, till you understand your options, the logic/rationale, even (gasp!) science behind your situation. Bob Fenner>

Ineffective Copper Treatment.   2/27/08
I am finding Marine Ich to be a real nuisance. I have pulled all of my fish from the main tank for the second time in less than a year because of Marine Ich. The first time all fish spent two months in QT (while the main tank remained fallow) and were treated with copper for the fist two weeks. When the fish were returned to the main tank after two months the signs and symptoms of Marine Ich returned within a few months and I eventually lost the Niger Trigger.
<No fun for sure>
This is was my motivating factor for pulling out all of the rock and corals again so I could get the fish into QT again. This is the second two week course of copper treatment for these fish in a years time. I used Cupramine again and kept the levels between 0.25-0.50 (Salifert Test kit) as directed by Mr. Fenner last year. I did test each day and sometimes twice without problems or fluctuations in the copper levels. All signs and symptoms of Marine Ich disappeared during the treatment. The fish are now at five weeks in QT tank and two weeks post treatment. After the treatment was completed I did two fifty percent water changes and added charcoal. Copper levels are undetectable and the water parameters are Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, ph 8.3, Alk 3.00, water temp 82, and Specific Gravity 1.025.
Now for the problems. The Foxface is again air gulping at the surface and the Blue Hippo Tang had a white spot on it yesterday. All of the respiratory rates on the fish are increasing as well. Copper can cause increased respiratory rates but I do not believe this is the problem since the fish's behavior changes are 2 weeks post treatment. I can only demise the Ich has returned.
<Ho buoy>
I am now at a loss for an appropriate treatment method without increasing the health risks to the fish. Is Copper still an option or should I consider other options (Hyposalinity) for both the fish and the QT tank? I have reviewed the Conscientious Marine Aquarist and the treatments listed there primarily refer to dips (if my understanding is correct) except for Malachite Green, Methylene Blue, and Copper Sulfate. Other websites lean towards hyposalinity by lowering the salinity to 1.012 over 72 hours with careful monitoring of Ph, and water temp.
<I would try the Quinine route.... and thereafter... attempt at "balance"; i.e. keeping the system optimized in the fish/hosts favor>
I know there are many treatment options out there but I am at a loss for what would be the safest and most effective treatment for the fish at this time. Any advise you have in this matter would be greatly appreciated and I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.
Sincerely,
Ward Budde
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

Another ich question! Treatment Failure 2/26/08
Hi Guys,
<Hello>
I have reviewed as much information on ich as I can find, both on your valuable site as well as others, and I am still at a loss. So I am hoping
you can give me some words of wisdom.
<Will try>
I have a 150g currently with only 2 inhabitants, a purple and a regal tang.
In January I had a bout with ich so I set up my old 65g with a BioWheel and mini skimmer I had lying around. I did hyposalinity which seemed to give them relief and they regained their strength and within 2 weeks there was no sign of infection nor sick behavior. I left them for another 3 weeks just cleaning and changing water as I don't like the idea of using chemicals unless absolutely necessary. During this time I also raised the salinity
back to normal.
Anyway after 5 weeks of the display running fallow and no signs of infection I put them back in. Within 2 days the regal is scratching again and hanging out in high flow areas.
So my questions are, if the fish never recovered why didn't it show in the other tank, yet show up as soon as I put them back?
<Most likely was caused by the tank change, can be stressful for fish and leaves them more susceptible to infection. The hypo helped knock down the parasites to a non-symptomatic level, but did not rid them all.>
If the problem is in the display how did the parasite survive 5 weeks without hosting, plus I raised the temp to over 80degs to speed up the cycle?
<Probably did not, but was still on the fish.>
As many have said before me your website is a tremendous source of information. Thanks on behalf of all of us caught by this obsession.
<Welcome>
Dayne
<Chris>

Garlic Supplement (as Crypt trtmt.) and High Nitrates (rel.?)   02/19/2008
I have 30 and 75 gallon tanks salt water/reef set ups. A week after adding a fish to the 75, I noticed white spots this fish (only this fish). My LFS suggested soaking the food in "Garlic Guard" by Seachem. I would then feed both tanks with this food. The white spots disappeared within a week but the store suggested that I feed the supplement for a full month because if it was ick, the disease would come back in about a month.
<<Feeding a fish garlic will not fight or remove Ich. The fish needs to be removed and placed in quarantine and treated>>
I took readings recently in both tanks and the nitrates were high, extremely high in the 30 tank. Could the supplement be causing my problem?
<<If you feeding a lot, then, yes its possible>>
Since diagnosing the problem, I've drained about 20 gallons of water from the 30 gallon tank and intend to drain about the same amount in the next couple of days. Any other suggestions? Thanks.
<<Quarantine the fish, back off the feeding a little to once per day, or even once every two days. Continue water changes until nitrates are under control. Please read here and linked articles and FAQ's regarding Crypto http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >>
Larry
<<Thanks for the questions Larry, hope the above helps. A Nixon>>

Ick Question, disappointing resp.   2/5/08
Hi -
<Hello Eric> My community tank is infested with the disease and I've lost a tang and flame angel to it. I still have two damsels that seemed to be unaffected by the outbreak. My question is this: do I have to remove the Damsels to have the tank go fallow for a month? Can they act as uninfected or, at least, unaffected, carriers of the disease?
<<<Answer this question Rick... it is YES. RMF>>>
 I'm asking because, as the only two fish left, I really don't want to tear down all the aquascaping just to get them. Thanks, Eric
<I would let the tank be for 3 weeks with the damsels and see if they exhibit signs of Ich. If not, I would double check water parameters to make sure all is well and then reintroduce new fish to the system. Keeping up on weekly water changes helps maintain very good water quality and reduce the stress that can allow Ich to succeed. Please check this link for more info and treatments....
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
HTH, Rich.. aka... Mr. Firemouth>

Reef tank ich; dealing with vampires – 01/28/2008
OK, so I have been fighting with ich in my reef tank for two weeks. LFS recommended raising temp and feeding with garlic elixir.
<You also need to be using crucifixes to get rid of the little vampires…
Really, while garlic was shown to be able to kill freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilius) at ridiculously high concentrations, there is no proof whatsoever it will help with marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). It probably won’t do any harm and the tank will get an exotic smell, but it also won’t kill the parasites.>
Temp raised to 83deg. No luck ich is getting worse visible on both my gold rim and powder blue tangs as well as my lawnmower blenny. Have an orange spot goby and a pair of maroon clowns with no signs yet. Decided to set up the QT tank and dose with product called copper power.
<Good decision. You also need a matching test kit to keep the copper level constant.>
From reading your FAQ I know to leave the affected fish in the QT tank for two weeks.
<Rather more.>
I have two questions. 1st should I have all of the fish in the QT tank during this time to clear the ich out of the main tank?
<Yes, you need to, anything else won’t work. Only a few fishes are more or less immune to Cryptocaryon, but even those should get some kind of treatment to be sure.>
2nd how long should it take for the ich to cycle out of the tank with non sick fish or no fish at all?
<At least 4 weeks, 6 are better. Please see http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm , which will answer your questions re marine ich in more detail.>
thanks, Dan
<Welcome. Marco.>

Ich... Crypt conundrums, Ich X product...  12/7/07
Hello
<Todd>
I have had problems with ich in the past and have read tons of stuff on the parasite. I had lost everything to the parasite last time around. I let my aquarium go fallow for over 2 months, nothing but live rock, snails and crabs. Bought a yellow tang, damsel and a tomato clown, quarantined them for four weeks and saw no sign of any disease, put them in my 120 gallon and about a week later what looks like small white grains of salt started to appear again, then they were suddenly covered with them. Put them back in the quarantine tank, lost the damsel and clown, now treating the tang with copper.
I have no idea what I'm doing wrong?
<Mmmm... perhaps nothing you are doing, but somethings more you could do...>
Is it possible the ich didn't die during the two month fallow period I stretched the fallow period just to make sure?
<A possibility, yes... more distal as time goes by...>
I know one of the fish could have been a carrier and not showed any symptoms, should I treat everyone before they enter my display tank, I know I shouldn't but that's how I feel.
<This is one approach... immersion or baths/dips...>
I would hate to get a full aquarium then bring one fish in after quarantine and get everybody sick!!!
<Yes... happens way too frequently... And most all could be avoided... by collectors, wholesalers, retailers, consumers... Better "up the line"... through simple pH adjusted freshwater baths, possibly with adjuncts>
I have excellent water quality, excellent water movement and excellent skimming. The only problem that I see is that my temp is a little high, my aquarium is a in wall set up and its in a closet in the other room and I need to install some fans to blow colder air from the basement to get it down to about 78 degrees, now its at about 84. But wouldn't that temp just speed of the life cycle of the parasite so they would have died quicker during the two month fallow period?
<Also might stress the livestock hosts...>
The high temp would also spread them quicker if they were still there or introduced again when I added fish rite?
<Right>
From what I have read after two months of going fallow they shouldn't be there?
<Again, less likely with more time going by, elevated temperature, decreased spg...>
Could it be something else in there besides ich, that looks like ich, that the fallow period isn't getting rid off?
<Yes... but if protozoan/parasitic, should likewise "die-back" with time, lack of hosts>
From what I have read and seen in pictures it looks like ich. If I drop the SG to like 1.009 is that going to hurt my live rock during my next fallow period?
<Yes... see WWM. I would not lower the spg this far>
I'd hate to rip down the tank and throw away $1500 worth of rock and sand and buy all new rock and sand!! But I don't know what else to do. The fish seem very healthy when I get them and during quarantine, my LFS runs ICH X in there system and the fish that I buy are there for two to three weeks before I pick up, so if they had any thing it should be gone even before I quarantine, a few other fish have been from LiveAquaria. I had a 55 gallon for years and never had a problem, even without a quarantine tank, not even a dip. Now I quarantine and freshwater dip, spent a bunch of money on a nice setup and have had nothing but problems. I think I'm just going to get a cat!!!!!!! HA HA Just kidding fish are to cool!!!!!
<I do like cats as well>
I have a feeling its coming from my tank because of how fast it is spreading. What do you think of ICH X?
<The Hikari product? Water, formaldehyde (<5%), methanol (<2%), malachite green chloride (<0.1%)... I would NOT use this in a marine setting... see WWM, articles, books by myself re each of the active ingredients... Too toxic, transient and ineffective against marine pathogens>
Or should I just stick with copper, it seems that its the most liked for this parasite.
<You should read>
Thanks so much for your help!!!! And for the best fish website out there!!!!! Todd
<Please use it. Start here (again if necessary, the case): http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scan the titles... take good notes... and write back with specific questions if you want.
Bob Fenner>

Malachite Green... not for Crypt    9/25/07
Hi Crew,
<Kelly>
I can't find explicit instructions for the use of Malachite Green.
<Mmm, should be posted on the bottle... varies per stock concentration... You've read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/malachitegreen.htm
and the linked files above? Evidently not.>
I have a Klein's Butterfly and a Foxface with Ick, which I have removed from my main tank to a 10 gal QT tank. At the advisement of my LFS I purchased Kordon Malachite Green
<... not effective for Crypt by itself>
and dosed the QT today. My dilemma is that I don't know what to do now. I can't find the treatment protocol. When do I do a water change, how much water do I change, and how do I dose the malachite with water changes?
<... Let's skip ahead and have you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures1.htm
and the linked files above...>
Also, I have to assume my display tank has ick, right? So, at the end of the treatment period when I reintroduce them back into my main tank will they just become re-infested? I have a snowflake eel, lunar wrasse, bicolor blenny, blue devil damsel, 2 neon gobies and a flame hawkfish still in my 75 gal FOWLR tank. Can I just use hyposalinity and high temp to run the parasite through its cycle? (Please say it is just this easy - I fought a huge ammonia battle only a month ago!) Thank you for your help. Kelly
<Have just skipped down... get reading... and soon. Bob Fenner>

(Ich) please help part 2, wasting time, lives    7/25/07
I got home last night and my clown was showing all the signs of infection scratching against decorative coral, locking into one place, which he never does, swimming up to one of my damsels and exposing his side as if he wanted the damsel to clean off the parasites etc. I had another idea on the way to work since this is a fish only tank would it be possible to remove the live rock place it in its own tank and treat the main tank itself until all signs of infection are gone?
<...>
If possible how long should I keep the rock by itself?
<...>
I would remove the carbon filters then reinstall after treatment. Will this remove enough of the medication to reinstall the live rock?, or should I just throw out all of my crushed coral , bleach all the decorative coral then install the separated live rock when I purchase the new 240 gal.
Please advise
Thanks Pat
<Please learn to/use the search tool, indices on WWM and READ... Your stock will be dead by the time you go through all this meaningless rambling. Maybe start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnfshdisart.htm
and the linked files above where you lead yourself. BobF>

Ick on Neon Gobies 6/28/07
Hi Crew, <Hi Samuel, MacL here with you on this fine and lovely evening.>
I am spoiled and lucky that I did not have ick for 3 years. I just added some snails and frags (no QT) <EEK> and it is 10 days later and my pair of neon gobies have a few spots. <In my experience its very rare for a neon goby to get ick.> I also have a royal Gramma and a spotted cardinal and they are clean so far. The gobies always try cleaning the cardinal and he freaks out. <I doooooo love cardinals.> They do not attempt to clean the Gramma, he must have let
them know he is not interested. But now that they have ick why don't they try cleaning each other? <They probably do and you just don't see it. >
Is it best to take action right away or is it OK to wait a while to see if they can beat it on their own? <This is such a tricky call and whatever I tell you some people will say I am wrong. BUT if it was me I would watch them to see what happens. I will say that usually the time to see if the ich are getting to be more is first thing in the morning if you only look at night you often miss how many are actually in the tank.>
I will not ask you what to do because you have already done that a few thousand times. I think people keep asking because they think their situation is unique and they do not like the idea of having to catch their fish for removal from the display. So they hope a new magic formula is available. And most of the time it is their own fault (myself included). <I think that people always hope for a new magic cure too. Some have tried things like vitamin c and garlic when they first see spots of ich and for many it does work so that's a possibility as well.>
No QT is our version of Russian Roulette.
Thanks

ICK ~ To Copper Some? or... To Copper All? To read some? Read all?  – 06/17/07
Hi,
I heard about your site and that you guys could possibly provide some insight or help?
<Possibly; will try>
Anyhow, 200gallon salt tank with lots of live rock. I have recognized a butterfly and a wrasse with what appears to be consistent with the description of ICK. I don't want to use copper on my main display tank
<NOT advised>
and I have a quarantine with appropriate parameters set up at all times.
<And you have used it religiously? Now you need a treatment tank...>
I figured my wrasse would be the toughest to catch, but after dropping a piece of shrimp in between my oversized net and the glass... I was able to catch him literally first attempt. The butterfly took about half hour, a sore back, and tired arms...
<Best to use two arms... two nets... maybe a friend, possibly remove the decor, rock...>
Anyhow, upon further reading through your articles I see the suggestion of quarantining all fish even if they have no apparent signs.
<... ALL fishes are potential hosts... ALL must be treated>
I have a regal tang and a Foxface left to catch. Interesting how tangs and rabbits are supposed ICK magnets, yet they are the ones that appear fine? hmm, back to my dilemma. Let's just say 5hrs combined over two days and I still have two fish in my main display.
<...>
Too much liverock.
<...>
Part of the problem is I have massive pieces of Tonga that barely fit through the 3 openings in the top of my tank in the first place.
Your thoughts?
<That you're wasting your time, trying to waste mine/ours... Any fish left in the system is a reservoir host functionally. You're forestalling the time/interval to effectively treat all>
Keep my eyes peeled on the Tang and the Foxface for ICK problems in my main display, in the meantime medicate the wrasse and butterfly? i.e. leave the other two alone? I fear that I am severely stressing them out after about 2 x 2-3hr sessions of chasing. I read through your site, and I don't have anything to store that much water in... as far as lowering the water.
I dunno, I'd also hate to use copper or a Cupramine on a fish with no signs.
I don't mind keeping my other two fish quarantined for awhile if necessary. That ICK, if it was going to attach to the tang or the Foxface, would like do so within days/weeks? I mean, if I medicate my ICKY fish and then keep them quarantined for 4 weeks... and my tang and Foxface are fine would u say that ICK in my tank would have died off ?
What would you suggest? Ideally, if I had smaller pieces of liverock, I'd empty the tank... but I came close to dropping one of these Tonga pieces once before... I think would easily crack the bottom. They're in about 20-30lbs pieces.
Derek
<Have just skipped down. Back to the drawing board with you. Read. Bob Fenner>

Ick Cure and the Meaning of RMF 6/12/07
Hi Crew,
<Hello>
I just came across this and was wondering if anyone of the Crew has tried their product that cures ick?
http://www.nosickfish.com/products.php
<Oh boy, where to start on this one. I will say I think they have some wonderful marketing people, and if they worked for me I would give them all a huge raise. As for whether their product can live up to its claims, I am doubtful to say the least. I have not come across any nor have they provided any scientific quantifiable data to support their claims.>
I can't believe I just figured out what/who RMF is-Read My Friend. <Sure you don't mean RMF? As in Robert M. Fenner? Although "Read My Friend" is also very appropriate and something I'm guessing Bob may start using. Actually while I'm thinking about it, when used by Bob, "Rate My Fannie" might be more accurate.><<Heeeee! BobF... not an acronym for Big ole Blubbery Fan-whale-oh!>>
Unfortunately it falls on deaf ears. We are in the 'want it now' generation. <So true, the concept of delayed gratification is dead. I'll choose an easy scape-goat and blame TV and the internet.> Why waste time reading when an expert can tell you what to do.
So instead of using their time they waste your time. <Sometimes unfortunately, but we still love doing it.>
Thanks for your time.
<Always a pleasure.>
<Chris>

Nitrates and Unhappy Inhabitants – 6/11/07
Hi Alex, Josh here again.
<Hey, Josh.>
Thank you for all your help in the last reply. Since then, the starfish died (that was ugly) <I bet. Yuck.>, the diamond goby in the quarantine tank died, <Aww…> (it looked like the infection spread into his gill since it was closed to begin with), my 2 turbo snails died, and all seven small snails. <gosh!> Not a good weekend... The four remaining fish in the tank and the tang in the quarantine tank are still OK. The Ich treatment says it gets rid of it in 2 days. <<No... RMF>> It has been about 4 or 5 and it still has one of the spots on the top edge of his fin. Should I keep him there for several days after it is not visible at all? <Yes. There needs to be a few weeks of symptom free before believing it is truly gone. Plus, it is in your tank also, so it does need to be fish free for a few weeks also, and all the fish need to be treated elsewhere. Read here… http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm > Is there anything significant with all my snails literally dying at the same time? <Yes, as you are aware, something is amiss in the water chemistry that is affecting all the inhabitants. It could be simply the high nitrates caused this cascade reaction. The possible disintegrating sponge could be a factor, as well as allelopathy between the corals (search WWM on this topic). Introducing the polyps and mushrooms which may have been irritated by the nitrates and then been extra noxious also probably contributed.> All hermit crabs are fine too. <Well one piece of good news! They are tough buggers.>
By the way, I did mean 1.021 for the specific gravity in the last email (not sure where I really came up with that). <Ah. Do strive to move this toward 1.025 over time. Stop topping off with fresh water for several days. When you change water, match whatever the current SG is in the tank to avoid shocking any inverts.> Also, I could put the two damsels in with the two small clowns in my wife’s 12G tank but my two big cinnamons would tear the small clowns up. <Yep! And you don’t want to infest your 12 gal with ich either.> The quarantine tank with the tang would be the only place those two could go and that is a lot of fish size wise for that ten gallon tank especially with the type of filtration on it. <Those don’t sound like safe places for them, I agree. Any chance you have room for one more tank somewhere for a few weeks? The cheap aquarium kits at the pet store chains (20 gal or so) are about the cost of one fish, so would be a good investment, and then you have a bigger quarantine tank for the next time you buy something new.> Is it OK temporarily if I do maybe a 10% water change every other day or twice a week? <The toxins in the tank do need to be diluted ASAP.> I'm going out to get an RO unit tonight. <Good!> Should I do some big water changes while the fish are out? <Yes! When the nitrates have come way down you will know you have also diluted whatever other toxins had built up. Give it some time to be ich-free and let the water chemistry restabilize, any recycling to complete, then slowly add back your fishes.>
Thanks again, Josh
<Hope things get better soon… Alex>

Puffer, Waspfish ,Trouble... Ich 6/1/07
I have a 100 gallon tank, 80-100 pounds live rock, serious filtration (XP4 and bio wheel sump), turbo twist, protein skimmer, all my water levels are perfect. Nitrate 10, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, ph 8.2 and good salinity. I have a dog faced puffer fish, cockatoo waspfish, peacock lionfish, and a green mandarin fish. I am pretty sure my fish have ich and I have added kick ich. <To the main tank? If so not good.> Hopefully everyone will be fine. <Unlikely without quarantine and proper treatment.> I have 3 concerns. One, my puffer has been sleeping at the top of the tank on top of one of my powerheads for as long as I have owned him, but now he curls up at the bottom and closes his eyes, is that normal? <Most likely nothing of concern.> He eats like a pig and other than his white dots seems fine. <But that is a big problem.> Two, now my waspfish is staying in the exact same spot on the power head close to the top of the tank as the puffer did. Is he having trouble breathing??? <Probably why the puffer is no longer sleeping there. He may be having trouble "breathing" since Ich attacks the gills first.> And 3, If my fish had ich wouldn’t all of them get it because my lionfish has no spots? <Lack of spots does not mean he is not infected, see here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm , http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm .>
You guys rock, I love how you interject your answers, I hope you can guide me to help my fish stay healthy! Thanks a million, Trevor
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Copper & Ick... should've read first   4/24/07
(sigh)
Our Blue Tangs have been in quarantine so long that I barely remember life before the quarantine tank on my dresser.
When we first got them they seemed fine after 5 days so we put them in the main tank.
<Not long enough...>
We had an ICK attack ... but THAT lesson is already learned.
Now we have them in a bare tank @ 79.4 degrees with a Whisper Flow filter I hate to go into details that have been covered many times, but I'm so frustrated I don't know what else to do.
1.  Kordon Ick*Attack according to mfr instructions -- no change after 14 days.
<Not a fan of this product...>
2.  Kick Ick by Ruby Reef according to mfr instructions -- no change after 14 days.
<Worthless>
3.  Copper Power according to mfr instructions -- no change after 20 days
<... Likely no testing of free copper...>
4.  Cupramine according to mfr instructions -- no change after 24 days
<Ditto>
The first two products did NO GOOD at all -- and I suspect that their "reef safe" chemistry makes them weak.
<Agreed... are not efficacious>
Copper Power and Cupramine both seemed to have cleared the ICK right up until each day we discussed placing the Tangs back in the main tank:  
<Uhh... the tank has this parasite... You're returning the host to the parasite...>
Yesterday they looked fine, today they look like a relief map of the Sierra Nevadas (white spots as well as bumpy blue skin).
The good news is that the bare tank bottom has a lush green algae carpet like we dream of having in our display tank.
<Indicative of insufficient, continuous copper exposure...>
Oh yes, never mixed ANY of the above ... in fact, bought an extra bare tank so I could clean and rinse between treatments.
I'm certain that I haven't dosed the copper properly,
<With testing?>
which brings me to my problem:
Copper Power is supposed to be 2.5ppm but the AQI test reads from 2.0 then jumps to 4.0  -- no way to read 2.5
<Need to get/use another (brand) test kit>
Cupramine is supposed to be .5ppm and the AQI test kit test that number but the yellow is FAR too pale to really read.
2.5?  5.0?  barely a difference when looking down through a test tube.
<... see above>
I have not found a single SeaChem test that reads copper.  Period.  FIVE tries now from 3 different LFS -- same.
<Please write them re>
So I bought an Instant Ocean test kit -- my favorite for everything else ... and it only tests to .25 ppm and nothing more.  Useless for Cupramine AND Copper Power..... etc.
I'm getting SO SO SO TRIED of spending money and seeing no results.
<I sense this>
If Copper is the best solution .... what's the best copper to put in solution (Pun alert!!!) and what test kit will accurately read it?
Regards
Allen
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above. I am a fan of chelated copper solutions, but only with matching test kit use... and infested tanks need to be left fallow (sans fish hosts) for at least a month, to avoid re-infestation of fishes. Bob Fenner>

Re: Copper & Ick  4/25/07 
I will read and digest the articles attached, as we have already done with an excellent 2 part article by Steven Pro.
<Good>
Just to set your mind at ease about a FEW things.
1) Once we introduced Ick into the main tank and lost fish, etc. We did leave it fallow and re-cycled it and now we have no problems with it.
<Good to know/read>
2) The PBTs (Poor Blue Tangs) have had the four different ICK treatments in four different physical tanks and have never been back in the main tank since the original outbreak.
<Ahh... so all fishes were removed?>
  It just SEEMS like thinking that
they've been clear 'long enough' and maybe time to put them back in -- is what cycles the Ick again.  (Obviously not a possible connection except for Murphy's Law)
<Maybe...>
3) So ... yes, it HAS to be the copper and the inability to test accurately -- but therein lies the problem.
<Likely so... Cupric solutions are not easily kept in suspension in alkaline environments...>
Even if I DID get a Seachem test that worked ... no one has yet told me "Cupramine treatment and Seachem test is the way to go" or "I use Copper Power and the {whomafluzit} test kit and get accurate results every time" or "use the Instant Ocean test with {dumbahickey} treatment and it will work", etc.
<Okay... straight out... I would look to Hach or LaMotte test kits...>
  Tanks, lights, filters, etc. all work the same way, using the same physics, so it's often a choice of money or style but the meds ... is more like a black art and a lot of us,
<Is way too much voodoo... agreed>
I think, are looking for the brand name endorsements from someone we trust ... and as much as I LIKE my local LFS (all three) .... well ..... yanno...... (sigh)
Anyway ... I'll read & digest.
Maybe I'll lower their salt or increase MY bourbon
D
<Heeeeee! Am having a rum as we key and read... I wish you and your fishes well. BobF>

Sick little goby - please help!! Phony Crypt med. system toxicity... need... to read    3/8/07
  Hello WWM crew,
    I would like to thank you for your wonderful site!!!  I have found the answers to almost all of my questions on your site since acquiring a salt water tank 2 years ago.  I was going to post to the 911 section of the chat forum, however presently the registration option is unavailable and I am not quite sure what to do with my problem.
<Let's see>
    I have a 180 gallon reef tank that houses a pink skunk clown, a black & white clown – we are still out on his exact classification, 4 P.J. cardinals, a keyhole pygmy angel, a yellow tail damsel, 3 engineer gobies (I adult, 2 juvenile that we got 6 months ago),
<Neat animals>
a sailfin, what has been labeled as a ‘white tail Kole tang’ (I cannot find any information on this fish, nor can I even find a picture of a similar fish – he is longer than a Kole tang, his coloration is grey – soft of a cross between lavender and black, and his tail is white)
<Likely an Acanthurus thompsoni... some have white caudals... other areas of their distribution they are uniformly grey... See WWM, fishbase.org for pix...>
    The tangs were both removed from the tank 2 weeks ago for a suspected case of ich, and are currently in a 30 gallon quarantine tank.
<Mmmm... if they have "it", the system itself has "it"...>
The have been treated with copper and are looking SOOO much better.  I have been treating the main tank with Kick-Ich
<Worthless... kicks nothing but your pocketbook...>
since removing the tangs.  My current problem is with one of my ‘baby gobies.’  No surprise, the gobies hang together, and have made permanent residence out of one of the base rocks in my reef structure.  The smallest of the three is very timid, and usually only comes out at feeding time…and even then he doesn’t travel more than 4 inches from his ‘safe place.’  He NEVER comes out from behind the rock structure to swim in the ‘display’ area of the tank.  Last night he was swimming all over  the tank and even laying down in the sand in the front section of the tank.  He did this 3 times for about 3 minutes at a time.  The third time he came out front, he was unable to control himself and got hung up in the current from the
powerheads;
<Stop the "Kick" product... it's poisoning your system...>
I also noted that he was ‘gasping’ on his third trip out front.  At that point I became concerned and pulled him out of the main tank to join the tangs in the quarantine tank.  He floated and blew around that tank for about a minute, mostly upside down, then was able to pull himself under the small rocks that are in the tank.  I thought for sure that he would be dead this morning, but he scurried out from under the rock when I lifted it up.   Unfortunately, he got caught up in the current again (which isn’t much at all in this tank) and was swimming upside down for 2-3 minutes without any control before finding his way back under the rock.  He is still gasping for all he is worth.  Any ideas???
    Thanks so much!!!
Susan
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptnoncures.htm
and as much of the linked files above as you sense that you need to understand your situation... Bob Fenner>

Re: Snowflake eel, blue tang, convict tang II,  Ich treatment 03/06/07
Hi there, do you know of any other medications which are safe and effective in a reef tank for treating ich?
<All really effective methods (e.g. hyposalinity) should be used in a hospital tank or in a tank without invertebrates.>
Today he had a lot more spots on him and they turned into raised bumps. Could it be fin and tail rot?
<Probably ich stage A described at http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm.>
I really want him to get better, because I have treated my tank with tri sulfa over 10 times and it removed ich every time.
<A hospital tank with hyposalinity is your best chance. If that is impossible, you may try to fight the free moving stage, which will break out in some days with your UV sterilizer and use tri sulfa to prevent secondary infections, but success is much less probable compared to treatment in a hospital tank. Cheers and good luck, Marco.>

Re: Snowflake eel, blue tang, convict tang III; need a hospital tank for proper ich treatment; how to catch an eel 03/06/07
Hi WWM, I treated the blue tang with tri-sulfa and some spots disappeared, but he
started scratching again. I do not have a hospital tank, so what else can I do and are corals
classified as invertebrates.
<See last email. Your corals are invertebrates and without a hospital tank, there is not much you can do without harming or killing them. Please read the WWM link sent in the last email. The life cycle of marine ich and the so far known methods of treatment are described there. Another good article is http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/hospital/swich/.>
If I choose to do hyposalinity what should I lower the salinity to?
<Specific gravity of 1.009 for four weeks, but your corals will not enjoy that. Only use hyposalinity in a tank without invertebrates.>
I am going to try and catch the eel, and are there any other ways of catching a snowflake eel then pulling apart the rockwork?
<A clean bottle with a small piece of its favourite food and an opening large enough. Bury it in the substrate. Watch at night. Chances are good you will find your eel sitting in the bottle. Close the bottle under water without getting bitten and transfer him carefully to a plastic bag for transport.>
Thanks, Maison
<Welcome. Marco.>

Ich Medication 2/27/07
Hey crew,
<Hi>
I have one question. What, in your own opinion, is the best Ich Medication treatment? Any success with Ruby Reef kick ich or No Sick Fish?
Thanks
Mike
<Copper, hyposalinity, and if really desperate formalin.  None of these are reef safe and must be administered in a hospital/QT tank.  I don't put much stock in anything else.  Please read here http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php and here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
<Chris>

Oh Help us please! Overstocked and Unprepared - Crypt... a whole lot of fish life in a big system  2/12/07
Hi,
<<Hello>>
We just purchased a 300-gallon salt system which had been running for 1 year.  It had the following:
<<had?>>
300-gal. acrylic tank w/ black background, large overflow box w/ return
Wet dry dimensions 6 x 19w x 20H
<<Mmm, seems rather small considering...>>
Custom 125 Sump Filtration System with Refuge
Two Recirculating Protein Skimmers ASM G3 & G2
500 Watt Water Heater
Two 25 watt UV
Gen-X Pump
Two Hamilton 4 foot light kits, each with 4 pc 96-watt bulbs in an ABS canopy
250 pounds of LIVE ROCK (Tonga branch)
Approx. 2” of Live Sand
•       3 1/2 ft. Tessellate Eel
<<Do be aware this monster reaches 11ft in length in the wild>>
•       1 ft gold spotted Eel
•       1 ft  ???  Eel
•       Extra Large Stars & Stripes Puffer
•       Medium Brown Dog Face Puffer
•       Extra-Large Figui Black Puffer
<<...?  Don’t know what this is...likely a black color-morph of the Dog Face puffer>>
•       Extra-Large Emperor Angel
•       Medium Bicolor Angel
•       Large Blue Face Angel
•       Large Majestic Angel
•       Large Passer Angel
•       Large Flag Fin Angel
.       Large Cream Angel
•       Medium Scopas tang
•       Extra-Large Sailfin Ind. Tang.
<<Yeeikes!  That’s a bunch of aggressive fish flesh...even for a 300-gallon tank...and somewhat incompatible too.  I can only imagine the physical and psychological strains on these fish from living/growing up in this “too small” environment>>
When we picked up the tank, we noticed that the puffer's eyes were a little cloudy with spots.
<<Mmm...>>
We were told "they were known for that" and it was ok.  We have had the tank running in our home for 3 weeks now and it is apparent that the white spots are not just on the puffers.  It is on all of the angels and tangs at varying degrees.
<<Indeed>>
After doing research on the web and your website
<<Better late than never I reckon>>
we are convinced that it is ICH.  We do not have a hospital tank... what can we do?
<<Some hard truths/times in store for you my friend.  Under the best of conditions this tank was a ticking bomb...if not from environmental degradation/disease then surely from stress/aggression related to too many large and incompatible species in too small a volume of water...likely the stress of moving the tank/inhabitants, along with the associated damage/reduced efficiency of the biological filter (already too small for this fish load) has accelerated the process.  These fish “need to be removed from this system” and relocated to appropriately sized and segregated vessels for treatment while the display system sits fallow for six-weeks.  During this time you will need to do your research and decide which “few” of the “compatible” animals you want to keep the most, and find appropriate homes for the others.  There’s something to be said about starting slow and learning as you go...  I sense you are new to the hobby, and you have definitely “jumped in to the deep end of the pool without a float” with this tank/setup purchase.  I implore you to find a local “guru” to help you with this predicament if at all possible (someone from the local fish club or a trusted fish store owner/employee).  And start reading all you can re FOWLR systems/setups/filtration, as well as researching the individual fish species re captive care requirements/adult sizes/compatibility/suitability>>
We love the fish and the tank and we don't want to lose anyone.
<<I understand your attachment, but it is my opinion you can not keep this quantity/mix of fish successfully in this aquarium.  In the best interest of the fishes you will have to learn/decide; based on your research, which can be kept healthy in this system for the long-term>>
Jim/Laura
<<I’m happy to help where I can but the onus is on you...you know where to find me.  Regards, Eric Russell>>

Re: Oh Help us please! Overstocked and Unprepared - 02/12/07
Thanks for your help.
<<Happy to assist>>
We have been fish people for over 15 years.
<<Then I guess I'm a little confused by some of the statements in your original query>>
We had a 200-gal salt tank about 10 years ago.  We started a family and that took all of our time so we sold the fish and tank. Currently we have 4 freshwater tanks and now the 300-gallon salt. We believe in low population and high filtration.
<<...?>>
Yes, the tank is very overpopulated and with very dirty, messy fish.
<<And then some...yes>>
Now I have one more question.
<<Ok>>
We called 3 local salt stores.  None of them offer "hospital assistance" and do not know of anyone who does.
<<As stated earlier, the responsibility is upon "you" to provide what is needed here.  If you are unable or unwilling to do this perhaps you could "give" the fish to the stores...maybe providing you some store credit in return>>  
We are located in southern California.  All of the stores recommended Kick Ich which is safe for reef tanks.  Some have used it in their own tanks and have had great success.  Does this stuff really work - or am I getting a sales pitch?
<<Is a "pitch" in my opinion.  This product is a waste of money and a loss of precious time...these fish need pH adjusted freshwater dips followed with treatment with a copper sulphate preparation...following the manufacturer's directions closely.  EricR>>

R3: Overstocked and Unprepared - Crypt  02/13/07
Thank you again for your assistance.
FYI we bought the tank with everything and ALL of the fish.  The tank had been running with all the fish for 1 year.  All that we have done is move the tank along with all of its 425 gallons of water to our home.
<<This was understood>>
If we had set up this tank on our own we would never have placed so many fish into the tank.
<<I’m not sure what you are trying to convey here...nobody is laying blame...but the fact is these fish are now under your care and are your responsibility.  How you choose to proceed will determine their quality of life.  EricR>>

Oodinium/whitespot... Unbelievable (almost) mis-mix, parasitic problem    2/12/07
Hi there you guys
   <Jo>
  We need some help please.
  We have an Aqua Medic Anthias 120 aquarium. 115 Gallons, Turboflotor 1000 protein skimmer, post skimming trickle filter and mechanical filter module, Twin 150 w metal halide lights with 10,000k AquaLine lamps. There is also a UV fitted.
  The tank is set up with live rock.   
  Livestock (what's left) is, 1 large regal tang,
1 large yellow tang, 1 Emperor Cardinal, i file fish,
<What species please>
2 percula, 2 black & white clown fish, 1 Clarks clown, 1 cleaner wrasse,
<Not easily kept>
1 midas blenny,1 blue throat trigger fish, 1 lyretail wrasse, 6 Chromis, 1 batfish,
<! What species? Get very large>
1 coral beauty, plus, 1 brittle star, 2 sand sifting stars, 1 clam,
<Won't be happy in this setting... too much activity from the fishes>
2 leather corals, 1 toadstool coral, 1 sea rod,
<...>
1 malu anemone, 1 other anemone,
<Not compatible with each other or the other Cnidarians...>
1 cabbage coral, 2 mushroom corals, 1 asparagus coral,  3 large turbo snails, 1 hermit crab, 2 carpet anemones,
<...>
1 Goniopora coral,
<...>
1 boxing shrimp & 2 cleaner shrimps.    
  We have an outbreak of whitespot,
<Yeeikes... "When it rains...">
and are losing lish on a daily basis. We have been treating the tank with Exodin
<........>
and have gone through 2 treatment cycles, but with no benefit.
<Need to be treated... elsewhere... the fishes separated... immediately>
  We had been advised to shut down the system when treating but as I understand it the cycle of the whitespot is 6 weeks in all, and obviously we can not shut everything down for this amount of time.
<... no>
  Can you please give us some advice on what to use, and how to go about it, so that we may save the livestock that we have left!
  Many thanks   
  Jo & Graham
<Where to start here? You have way too much life... and much of it incompatible here... You need to separate and treat the fish life in another system (or two)... If at all possible, practical, stop doing all else and READ re the "Systems", "Compatibility" of all the species you list above... and make a list/discrimination amongst them... for 1) What can go together in this volume, 2) What you need to separate, give away, return... And READ here ASAP: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... as long/far as it takes you to understand what you're up against... and FIRE whoever has sold you the mess you have... AND avail yourself (set up, use) of a Quarantine system for all new livestock... I do hope you don't end up quitting the hobby out of frustration... but you have many trying times ahead. Bob Fenner>

Re: Oodinium/whitespot... Unbelievable (almost) mis-mix, parasitic problem  2/12/07
Thanks for your response.
   <You need too read... and act... NOW...>
  We have since lost all 5 clowns & the midas blenny.
  The file fish is a tassel file,
<Gets way too large for your system...>
The Batfish is an orbit.
<Ditto>
The clam is in a quiet area of the tank, and seems happy, not had any problems with it.
<It will perish soon>
All the corals are healthy and feeding, and growing, We have had no losses there.   
  We are in the process of setting up a separate tank to put the fish in, to treat.
<Ahh, thank goodness>
As I understand it if we allow the tank to lay with just the invert's and treat the fish elsewhere we will have a good chance of clearing the problem, possibly in 6 - 8 weeks?
<Hopefully>
  I am uncertain as to where the 'itch' came from.
<Then... read>
We had no problems for 3 months, and didn't  think we had transferred anything to the tank with any form of disease. It didn't appear after an addition, and I wondered if it was caused by stress??
   <Ah, yes... with a latent infestation present>
  Our tank maintenance man came to day and performed a 25% water change, cleaned the tank and sand, and suggested that we use no treatment in the tank,
<Good>
and live with the results.
<Uh, no... the results will be the loss of all fish livestock...>
He recommended we add more cleaner types to the tank, turbo snails, hermit crabs and blue cheek goby? Any comments on this?.
   <... dismal>
  As for the store that sold us this 'mess' as you call it, we will be shopping elsewhere from now on.
<I would>
  We will need to ask advice from someone as to what we need to re home. We were not told we couldn't have certain anemones together ect.
<... and no such word as ect.>
I find it very hard to ID for sure the types we have, and admit i am unsure of compatibility.
<Obviously>
  we have tried our best,
<... Perhaps given a lack of useful, direct information>
but obviously we have failed to a point, and must now concentrate on what we have left.
<Again... the urge to action... with knowledge here... READ, understand for yourself the current situation... and the impending doom... This mix of livestock is a proverbial time-bomb... with an ever-shrinking fuse. Bob Fenner>

Crypt, Inverts....what to do?   2/11/07
Hi
<Hello.>
I recently discovered my clownfish had Marine ich.
<Uh-oh.>
I started treating the tank with Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich medicine and my fish died after the second day I started treatment.  
<Not a fan of display treatments, proper QT is key.>
I am still treating the entire tank with this medicine,
<I would discontinue...there is no need if the tank is fishless, just let it run empty for at least 6-8 weeks.>
and I am half-way of finishing the 15-day treatment.  I currently have: 3 adult snails, a 4mm baby snail (very cute), 3 hermit crabs, an electric fire scallop and live rock.
<An even bigger reason to discontinue the medication use.>
I want to know if these can be infected with Marine Ich as well,
<Nope, the medication is more a threat to these....>
and what is the best thing I can do to have a once again healthy tank.  
<Quarantine future additions.>
  The temp. in the aquarium is set to ~82 degrees Fahrenheit and the salinity specific to gravity is at 1.025.  In addition, I noticed this week my three hermit crabs molted at about the same time.  I want to know if this is something normal, or if it could be related to the ich or this medication (5-nitroimidazoles).
<Much on crypt. posted on WWM, do search...Adam J.> <<Is related... RMF>>
--
Maria del Mar

Crypt - 10/22/2006
I'm about at my wits end with this problem.
<Can be extremely trying>
I've read almost everything on the web (including your web site) and in books about the disease and its treatment and have followed some of the described treatments (copper, hyposalinity, fallow tank, etc) but it keeps coming back.
<Not gone in the first place...>
Below I'll describe what I've done and maybe you can spot something I've missed.
<Okay>
I should note that I religiously check and keep my water parameters within guidelines and as stable as possible.
<And you're going to adopt strict quarantine practice>
I also do at least one water change a week. Thanks in advance for your assistance By way of background: The first time I had Ich in my 120 gallon Reef tank was 4 months ago (hippo tang 1st, then a Purple tang, followed by a Foxface & a copper banded Butterfly.  On advise
<advice>
from my LFS, I tried a "Reef Safe" treatment
<There are no such remedies that are effective. Period>
which, after multiple tries, did nothing to cure or even alleviate the problem. During this iterative process, I installed a UV system in hopes of further aiding in the treatment - no luck there either. I then broke down the tank, removing all fish to my LFS & a hospital tank. After reading everything published on the Web and in 4 or 5 books, I elected to put copper (.15)
<This concentration in ppm is on the lowest end of the range of efficacy>
in the hospital tank (the LFS's tank had copper as well)
<The majority of LFSs likely maintain some copper level in their fish holding systems>
and then left only corals, shrimp & crab in the 120 tank for 35 days. Additionally, I did three 20 gallon water changes (more to get any residual of the "Reef Safe" medication out of the tank than any thought of removing any of the Ich parasites)
<No need>
After the 35 day fallow period, I began reintroducing fish into the tank at a controlled rate 3-5 a week (just from my hospital & the LFS tanks).
<.... no quarantine?...>
2-3 weeks into this process Ich symptoms began reappearing, first on a Heniochus, next a  Foxface, then a goby and then a flame angel and two Gudgeon. At this point, my LFS Owner suggested that I "start over":  Get rid of my sand, rock & water (120 tank and sump).
<Poor advice... not necessary or useful in the least here>
  This I did, and again send several of the remaining fish to either my hospital tank or the LFS. I then bought new sand & rock and restarted my tank from scratch.  I put back the coral, shrimp, crab & anemone and left it fallow for 2 plus weeks. During that 2 week period, all of the fish at the LFS were in copper
<I wouldn't "bet" on this...>
and were looking pretty good as were the fish in hypo-salinity (1.018) in my hospital tank.  For the last 7-8 days in my hospital tank I put in copper (.15). Current Scenario: After that period (3 weeks+/-) I reintroduced the 7 fish from my hospital tank back into the restarted 120 gallon reef tank and left them for 7 days. Nobody showed any signs of Ich up to that point. Next I put a velvet wrasse and an Eibli Angel from the LFS's copper tank in my Hospital tank (now a quarantine tank with no copper and normal salinity)
<Yay!>
and left them there for 4 days (4 days because they'd been in copper at the LFS for 10 days +/- prior to being moved to my tank).  After I moved them to the large tank at the end of the 4 days, I added no fish for 5 or 6 days I then added 4 tangs
<What species? A 120 gallon volume isn't enough for a mix of most>
(mine) from the LFS's copper tank back into my 120 gallon tank.  Two of the tangs (Purple and Chevron) had been in the LFS
copper tank ever since the end of the first break-out (2+ months), the mimic had been in the LFS for 3 weeks in another tank with copper in it and the sailfin had been in the LFS, in copper, for 2 + weeks.  That was twelve days ago. Two days ago I noted 4 Ich spots on my Purple Tang and yesterday that was up to about 20 and there were 6 on my Foxface. The only suggestions, other than posting this plea was to make sure that I soak the fish's food in Garlic
<Not generally efficacious...>
(which I have always done - since day one of my having fish) and add Coral Vital
<Worthless>
(1 capful per 10 gallons) every day. Can anyone offer any advice on additional step I might take (other than give up on the hobby).
Your thoughts and feedback will be greatly appreciated.  Regards, Teri
<Am out of the country on a very poor connection, but strongly encourage you to (re)peruse all the Articles and as much of the FAQs files on Cryptocaryon archived on WWM (see the indices, search tool)... I would NOT "trust" anyone but yourself to quarantine and treat your livestock... I WOULD have a higher titer of free cupric ion present at all times during treatment... as much as 0.35 ppm. Bob Fenner>

Ich breakout, crowded marine systems, Magical Magnet Cure-alls!  - 05/13/2006
Hey Guys,
<What about the women here? Am wondering if "guys" covers all genders nowadays.>
I have recently introduced a new Tusk to my aquarium. I have a 120 FO with skeletal corals. I have a huge wet/dry and a 25 UV going. After introducing the Tusk my Blue Face Angel was giving him problems.
<This tank is too small for a Euxiphipops...>
Not surprisingly the Tusk broke out with ich. He has obviously been scratching because he cut up the top of his tail. I have removed the Blue Face Angel and put him in another aquarium, however my Tusk, Picasso, Golden Arothron, and Volitans lion have ich now. None of these guys have ever had ich.
<But your system did... you/they did actually have a sub-symptomatic crypt infestation>
I don't want to treat with copper. I just recently ordered a product called ECO-Aqualizer that is supposed to help with the immunity of fish, and almost cure anything.
<Heeee! Magnet technology... Hope you've also got a pyramid hat to cogitate furiously with... See WWM re reference to this product, the owners...>
Not sure if you've heard of it. However do you have any suggestions? I love my fish and it sucks to see them with ich after they have been doing so well.
~Sam
<Uhh... sure... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
and the linked files above... and soon... formulate a real treatment plan, execute against it... Or your fishes will perish. Bob Fenner>

Ich Advise and advice ... poor information and ignorance   5/21/06
Currently have Ich in my 55 Gallon Reef Tank.  I have installed a UV Sterilizer
<Won't cure>
and am about a week into "Kick-Ich" treatments.
<Worthless>
  I have also removed the charcoal and turned off the skimmer.  Is there anything you might suggest further??  
<...>
Also, have you ever heard of the SANO Remedy?  I have read some testimonials from users, and they have all been good.
Thanks
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to Parasitic Systems/Reefs, Cryptocaryon, Phony Remedies... and read. W/o useful, accurate knowledge and action... soon... your fishes will be dead and you out of the hobby. Bob Fenner>
 
Ich questions I'll say! SW impudence  3/23/06
Hi, bad news today I've got Marine Ich.
<Could be worse. Your fishes could have it>
I woke up this morning and my Rusty angel was on the brink of death. I gave him a freshwater dip but he'll probably die.
<So will you, but let's make it later rather than sooner eh?>
I never really knew what Marine Ich looked like. I'm experienced with freshwater Ich but Marine seems trickier. I know freshwater Ich is definite white spots on the fishes body but what threw me here was that the marine Ich looked like tiny bubbles. I read that one article Ich v. Air bubbles. I shut off the protein skimmer for awhile and they were no air bubbles. so Marine fishes should have absolutely no signs of white spots no matter how small right? and they should exhibit little to no flashing?
<You're getting there...>
I have notice some of my other fish have had small white spots in the past and were flashing but due to my inexperience I thought little of it. I think they weren't as affected as my Angle because I use this stuff called Reef DNA
<Tis garbage>
that is supposed to inhibit Ich attachment to fishes skin.
<Heee and cure baldness?>
I have also been thinking is Freshwater Ich and Marine Ich the same organism
<No... same holociliate grouping though>
because sometimes I share my thermometer between my two tanks although, the freshwater tank has been Ich free for a year or so they could have been transferred and liked it better in the Marine tank. I've read up as much as I could on your site and I've got a pretty good idea of what I have to do. but what should the size of the isolation tank be? my current tank is a 30 gal. and is getting to the point of, or is, over stocked with 5 damsels, 1 zebra goby,1 striped Dottyback, and my angle; if he survives. all I have to work with is a 10 gal and a 55gal. both are extremes and I would rather not use the 55 because of the large amount of water and water changes. also apparently a Rusty Angel is the type of Angel that does not tolerate copper well right? any input would be great my basic plan is isolation of all fishes, let the main tank run fallow for 5 weeks, and treat the isolation tank for a week or so.
Thanks,
Shawn
<Have just skipped down... read: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... do this soon... Bob Fenner>

Flame Angel Not eating... Melafix/tea non-treatment  - 01/24/06
Hi Bob,
<Chase>
I hope you can please help me with this? I have had a 3.5 in Flame angel for over 7 months now. About 7 weeks ago I had a bad case of ick that ended up killing my Bicolor blenny before I could get it under control. I finally have it under control with no signs of ick for 6 weeks. The problem that I am having is the flame angel hasn't eaten in about 6 weeks.
I treat the ick with MelaFix (which now I am not sure was the best thing).
<... is not... the ich is still there... its presence (sub-symptomatic) is likely largely at play here>
I feed the tank spectrum, flake, live brine, frozen brine, Mysis and bloodworms. The flame
angel eat great before and eat everything that I gave him. He hasn't loss any weight that I can tell, but he is eating the normal food. He also has come very shy and hides in the rocks a lot. There is nothing in the tank picking on him and everything else is eating well. About 1 week ago I noticed that his tail (the purple part) was tearing and since he had no appetite I thought it maybe fin rot so I again dosed MelaFix which helped the fin rot within 2 days but he still isn't eating. Do you have any suggestions? Thanks for your help.
<... if people are sick with a parasite, do they think of drinking tea to cure themselves?>
90 Gallon FOWLR, Copperband Butterfly, Flame Angel, Yellow Coris wrasse, 6 line wrasse, Kole tang, pair of clowns, shrimp goby, Bartlett Anthias,
diamond goby, yellow spot goby  
Chase Brodsky
<You will find the Cryptocaryon resurfacing should this system be "challenged" or another fish added... see WWM re treating Crypt. Treat the cause, not symptoms. Bob Fenner>

Saltwater ich !!  9/25/05
Hi Bob,
<Ramy>
After reading the WetWeb archives about ich, I know that you don't believe in what is called the reef safe medications.
<Have never encountered one that was safe... and effective>
My question is regarding a new medication by nosickfish company, www.nosickfish.com
All the reviews claim it is a miraculous medication. What is your opinion ??
<Mmm, have met the young fellow who rep.s this stuff twice now... last week's MACNA, last IMAC... seems earnest, yet won't/can't say what the product is, the history of its development... how it works... so am doubtful... However, I would "cast your net out" a bit further and ask fellow hobbyists for input... on the large/r BB's like Reefs.org, ReefCentral... re their experience/s>
My regal and powder blue tangs are heavily infected and there is no way I can tear up the tank to catch them. It is a 150 gal , SPS tank and a few clams . HELP !!!!!
Ramy, Canada.
<I would prepare for "the worst" by setting up a treatment tank, be ready to drain... and quarantine all newcomers... Bob Fenner>

Re: Saltwater ich !!  9/30/05
Hi Bob,
<Ramy>
Thank you for your reply. I emailed the nosickfish guy and he replied back saying that this medication is not 100% effective but they have 85% success rate over the other medications !!!
<I see... the young fellow I met twice seemed earnest>
So here I am , 4 cleaner shrimps, 1 cleaner wrasse and 3 neon gobies. The Regal tang is doing great but the powder blue is heavily infected and it is a coward as it does not allow any of the cleaner shrimps or the neon gobies to touch her.
Any other suggestions, it is very hard to catch the fish in this setup with all the SPS .
<... drain the tank to catch out all fishes... the sessile invertebrates will not be harmed by this temporary air exposure, and this is much easier on the fishes>
P.S. I feed with the garlic flakes and mysis shrimps .
<I don't put much stock in garlic (though I do put garlic in most of my stocks...)>
Thanks again.
Ramy, Canada.
<Do read over the parasitic disease, systems articles, FAQs files on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Ick treatment suggestion for my LFS  9/28/05
Hello, I wrote to you recently about my ick problem... I know my approach was probably backwards.. But it seems to be working... I pulled and my liverock (about 150lbs) of it out of my main display and added malachite green to my display tank to treat my fish only and it seems to be working... 1 week left of treatments left to go.. and all appetites are back... Anyway I just wanted to tell you that my LFS guy told me I could have treated my main display tank for 2 weeks with no adverse reactions from my fish or inverts... He also swears that he treats his 250 gallon in store display tank with malachite green and has never lost a fish or invert... How could this be?
<... don't know... a sub-lethal (to the livestock) dose... luck?>
I have been using him for about 10 years and he has never steered me wrong in the past.. He owns a very popular store in New Jersey... needless to say I did not follow his advice....This could be why we make terrariums out of our fish tanks.. hehe
<You are (painfully) correct here. Again, there are few bonafide methods for parasite eradication in marine aquariums... these are stated, investigated over and over in the scientific (not the hobbyist) press... Nonetheless, there persists ignorance in abundance, products of soda pop, hot pepper, other make-up that are sold, good-sellers, that result in huge losses of livestock, hobbyists, business... amazingly self-defeating. Having spent decades in the trade, including fourteen years "on the floor" in retail, am continuously incredulous at how gullible the public apparently is... Heard recently (on a PBS Sunday game show) that two out of five Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth... Bob Fenner>

Re: Help with Ick, still not reading...
Hi Bob, thanks for your advice...again.  You said I have a "sort of" infestation because only 2 of my 8 fish seem to have it.  Is this a "better" time to treat it with something like Ick Attack because I'm catching it at an early stage, instead of setting up a QT????
<Nope... the "ways to treat", rationale are all... still posted on WWM... read them>
In your opinion, are products like Ick Attack more effective on a small infestation, rather than if all 8 of my fish had it?????   Thanks again. Jeff.
<This product is a scam... I would not use it for anything... you've been swindled... study my friend. Bob Fenner>

Sera Cryptopur
Hello,
<Hi there>
Have you had any experience using Sera Cryptopur for treating itch.
<No, I use Goldbond on my feet. Oh you mean for saltwater ich/Crypt. Nope... here's their pitch: http://www.sera.de/English/autoframe.htm?url=http://www.sera.de/english/News/news.htm >
It says you can use it in the main tank along with live rock and inverts as it does not contain copper. What do you think..
<That there is no such thing as an effective treatment that kills some invertebrate w/o killing other invertebrates... Bob Fenner>

Feedback on Aquapharm Pro Series Cure Ich Product
Hi again!
<Hello>
Thanks a bunch for all your help.  I'm currently have a hyposalinity QT tank set up for my parrotfish, batfish, and boxfish.  They're temporarily in a rather small tank.  I plan to move them to a bigger one so as to house all the remaining fishes in my display tank.  Unfortunately, the sailfin tang's condition deteriorated and didn't make it pass the FW dip which was frustrating since I had him since he was li'l guy!!!  :-(
I do however have a question regarding AquaPharm's Pro Series Cure Ich medication.  Have any of you used it?
<Mmm, no... this is a product of: http://www.aquapharm-india.com/ and not something not listed by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals I take it>
How effective was it in getting rid of the ich?  Also, it doesn't state what its ingredients are, just that it doesn't contain copper.  It also claims that it is safe for invertebrates, and corals.
<Umm... ingredients not listed... safe for non-vertebrates... Not a possibility>
  (I've attached what's printed on the bottle label.)  But when I do use it, the anemones tend to shrink for the first few days.
<Uhh, what do you think?>
Does this mean that it's a temporary occurrence?
<Life itself is temporary... I would NOT use this product>
  Should I continue to use this medication in my QT tank for the infected fishes?
<I would NOT. Look for a REAL product.>
They're pretty much clear of clear but I'm going to wait for another 4 weeks before I put them back into the display tank, that is, if I can catch the remaining fishes in the display tank.  They're pretty slippery li'l guys to catch!! It would be much appreciated if you could let me know of any feedback about its usage.
<Study my friend... very likely the visible stages have just cycled off... perhaps with the general poisoning of this product involved... they'll be back>
Also, according to the site, I should increase the temperature of the display tank to speed up the lifecycle of the ich.  I'm currently using 2 fans on top of my display tank.  It's usually around 26 - 27 degrees and the plants and anemones are doing well.  But I was told that anything higher than those temperatures, the plants will suffer.  Is that true?  If so, what should I do?  Take out the plants too?
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the Related Articles and FAQs files (linked, in blue, at top) until you understand what you're up to here>
As for the harlequin shrimp, when I feed them starfish, would I have to QT the small red starfishes too to avoid bringing ich into the system?
<Study>
If so, would it have an adverse effect on the starfishes if I put them in with the others in the QT tank which is currently in hyposalinity.
<The hyposalinity will NOT eliminate the Cryptocaryon by itself...>
Btw, I also have tank containing a few pufferfishes, 1 dogface puffer, 3 white spotted puffers (s,m,l sizes), 1 other puffer (but I don't know the English name for it), 1 scorpionfish.  So far the fishes get along fine.
The scorpionfish is usually next to the sponge filters whereas the largest of the white spotted puffer just sits at the bottom of the tank until a piece of food comes his way.  However, since the puffers are very aggressive during feeding time, the li'l ones usually miss out on the bits of shrimps that I give as the larger ones keep stealing them away from the li'l ones.  Is this behavior normal?
<Yes. You may have to feed the smaller individual especially, perhaps move it to other quarters.>
  When I feed the scorpion live freshwater fish, the largest of the white spotted puffer keeps catching them for himself!!  So......... I do wonder if the scorpion ends up eating at all.  Any suggestions?
Thanks again.   
Still trying,
Lisa
<You're doing fine thus far... just need to apply yourself, learn a bit more>
Pro Series  Cure Ich? safe for corals and invertebrates is a scientifically formulated medication for the control of marine ich (white spot).  It contains no copper and it is safe for corals, invertebrates and delicate fish and will not damage the biological filter.  
Cure Ich? also eliminates the free swimming parasites that feed on the fish and end up leaving an open wound which eventually cause a bacterial infection. Symptoms may include any white spots, body fungus, visible sores or wounds, discoloration, fish rubbing against objects, loss of appetite and increased respiration.
Cure Ich? is also a treatment of Velvet, Coral fish disease (Oodinium), Slimy skin disease (Brooklynella), Fin and tail rot, Mouth fungus (Flexibacter Columnaris).
<And balding, dementia and what ails you... You've been swindled. Bob Fenner>

Lack of knowledge, phony medicines, Crypt
I have a Lionfish and a Foxface Fish in a 75g tank. All of the parameters are
fine. I've been trying to kick some sort of parasite or ich out of my tank. I am losing the battle.
<... are you inferring you've been treating the main tank with some sort of chemical regimen? Not smart>
I've already lost my Kole Tang and Basslet Fish. I've been using Rally and Kick Ich with no positive results.
<These products are worst than worthless... they are toxic placebos concerning parasite treatment>
I've even aerated the tank as much as possible to help the fish breathe and I am currently losing the battle. I even tried to over medicate the tank to help with it but, it is not working.
<...>
I am to the point I am going to abandon my main 75g tank and move the remaining inhabitants, Foxface Fish and live rock into a 10g tank.
<Oh, good idea>
What do I need to do to the main tank to get rid of ich and the parasites once the inhabitants have been removed? After I moving the occupants should I do a water change and leave it empty? All medications have not helped my fight against the parasite/Ich. Help
<Uhh, time to study, then act. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the Related Articles and FAQs (linked, in blue, at top). Bob Fenner>

No Question But A Confirmation. Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich
I thoroughly enjoy your site and the information.
<Me too>
A number of references have been made regarding Ruby Reef's Kick-Ich.  My experience with the product has also not been good.
<It's a sham>
There seems to be a significant "unexplained" mortality rate when using this product. Fish that have no visible signs of ich are found floating within 12 hours of dosage even though all directions are carefully followed. Slime slothing [sloughing] was witnessed in most of the fish.
<You would observe the same results from pouring in most any kitchen food product... vinegar, mustard...>
The fish become lethargic for a period of time, followed by air gulping even though water quality is good and there are no ammonia traces, at the same time, fish with swim bladders seem to lose control of buoyancy, become weaker and die.
<Yes>
Transfer of the fish to another system void of the "medication" does not seem to help, however it may if the fish are transferred as soon as any type of behavior change is noted. 
<Good descriptions>
Fish with ich show no signs of improvement but worse than that they seem to attract the ich like magnets during the secondary bloom.
<I concur>
At the end of the treatment cycle when the protein skimmer is turned back on cups and cups of effluent are generated even though Nitrate, nitrite levels are imperceptible. This may be a bacteria bloom in the skimmer itself however its more likely a reaction between the product and the skimmer bacteria.  John
<You[r] and I's [my] observations agree... the product is worse than worthless... as it leads people to believe they're actually "doing something" of value, helping their livestock. Bob Fenner>

Hippo Tang scratching, Kick Ich product SCAM,
Good Day
<Hello>
Well, my Hippo tang is scratching persistently and my yellow tang is scratching now.  I knew I should have waited about the Kick Ich -- that is  one $31.00 lesson I learned.
<This product... how many more times do I have to state this?... is an outright SCAM... there are NO reef safe anti-Cryptocaryon cures... NONE... What leads people to believe there could be? What would select this protozoan and yet leave others be? Arggggh!>
  I have a 20 gallon QT tank I am going to set  up today.  
Should I use 10 gallons of water from my tank and 10 gallons of  fresh saltwater or should all 20 gallons be fresh saltwater since I do not know  what is going on in my tank?
<I would use the current aquarium water... less stress, comes with beneficial microbes... the ich will be killed...>
My yellow tangs cloudy eye has healed, but he  still has the large brown spots on him and his lips seem to have a little  brownish color around them today.  With what and how should I treat my fish  once I get them into the QT tank?  All your help is greatly  appreciated.
Sherry
<... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files (in blue, above) where you lead yourself... QUICKLY... and act with knowledge. Bob Fenner>

Reef safe" ich medication
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005
Hello WWM Crew, 
<Hello Eric, James (Salty Dog) here.>
I have used your website an awful lot, as it has been very helpful. I know you have probably already answered my problem but I am still confused about what to do. I have a yellow tang with a pretty bad case of Ich. I stupidly bought "kick ich", and so far it has yielded worthless results. Believe it or not I isolated the yellow tang (he is my only fish) in a hospital tank to apply medication, however I moved him back to the main tank for two reasons. One, the kick ich claims its reef safe, which I seriously doubt. The second reason was I was having troubled keeping the ammonia and nitrite levels at a safe level in the 10 gallon ht. I don't have a sponge filter to apply to ht, however I know its a good thing to use the display tank water.  My question is, how can I keep the ammonia/nitrite problem in check? If I do frequent water changes, then how can I keep the medication at an affective level? 
<Eric, unfortunately, in my opinion, there is no effective medication for ridding ich in a reef tank. I think Sea Chem's Prime would work for you in your QT. Try to stay away from the chelated copper medications as test kits will not read correct levels. Use an ionic (copper sulphate) copper medication. A test kit is required since it quickly precipitates in the system. Do not use any carbonate material for substrate as this will quickly absorb at least half of it in a couple hours. Keep the level between .15/.20. You will need to monitor the level daily. Good luck, James (Salty Dog)>

Kicking Ich- The Effective Way! (Pt. 2)
HI Scott.
<Hello again!>
Thanks for the advice.
<My pleasure!>
I will say that Kick-Ich did a pretty good job in the original part of the infection, when about half the fish showed ich. It was nearly all gone within a three days. As of today, I can't see any signs of infection at all. So, I think it did some good.....
<Well, do familiarize yourself with the life cycle of the causative protozoan. As part of its life cycle, the Cryptocaryon protozoa leave the infected fishes several days after they appear to move on to the next phase of their life cycle. Don't be 100% convinced that they are history... They usually return...Be vigilant!>
Anyway, I'm moving a short distance in three weeks, and will take that opportunity to let the tank lay fallow, and treat the fish with copper. I'd imagine that will do the trick...
<Yep...that will get 'em!>
Thanks very much, I do appreciate your time and all the good advice from WetWebMedia.
Mark
<Glad to be here, Mark. Do realize that I am a bit opinionated when it comes to ich treatment, but my advice-nor anyone else's-should be taken as the last word on the subject. I simply recommend what has worked for me and many others with the highest rate of success...Always be skeptical and go with your instincts. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Kicking Ich-Follow Up...
Hi Scott.
<Hello again!>
Just for the record, or information, the ich spots on the fish did disappear (and never returned) about three days after I started with the Kick Ich treatment. I'm not surprised the spots went away in that time frame however, its been three weeks, and except for one or two small spots on the pectoral fins of two of the fish (which I don't happen to see today), the ich never came back. Could be coincidence, of course, but based on that, I do think it did some good, killing the free swimming stage as advertised.....
<Glad to hear that it worked for you. I won't bad-mouth the stuff, but just choose not to use it myself, or recommend it to others...>
On the other hand, despite a water change, I think the leather coral has croaked, and the pearl died some time ago. Kick Ich is supposed to degrade or decay over time, but perhaps the concentrations get too high without a water change over the course of treatment.
<Could be...>
Also, the directions say to dose by tank/sump size, never mind about the live rock, etc. I'd guess my live rock is 1/4 the volume of the tank, so perhaps that was a factor.
<True with any additive, medication, etc. Good point! This is, of course, one of the many reasons why I generally advocate treatment in a separate tank>
Anyway, I figured kick ich was worth trying, since the local fish store guy swore by it. I'm looking forward to moving the tank like a trip to the dentist, but at least I should have a clean aquarium as a result...
<This is true!>
Thanks, Mark
<Thanks for sharing your experiences with our readers, Mark! Good luck the rest of the way! Regards, Scott F>

Marine Ick
Bob,
<Jeff>
I want to start by saying that I really enjoy reading the postings.  They have really helped me to gain a better understanding of my saltwater system.
<Me too>
Here is what I have: 55 gal FOWLR, Wet/Dry filter, Rio 360 pump, two power heads in the tank, protein skimmer, 50#of crushed coral, 12# of LR, with other coral skeletons for decoration.
<Okay>
My livestock originally consisted of:  5 damsels, 2  snails, 2 blue leg hermits, a coral beauty, a hippo tang, a yellow mimic tang, and two false pecs.  Everything with the exception of the coral beauty was under 2", or less.
Just as a side note, I have learned the value of a quarantine tank, at the cost of the mimic tang, snails, hermits, and both false pecs...enough said there.
<Yikes>
A couple of weeks ago I noticed that my coral beauty and the hippo tang both developed Ick.  I did not see any of the warning signs, other than a high Nitrate level, but they both were covered in white spots, seemingly overnight.  I did not have any type of q-tank, as this is a new set up and all of the fish were bought at the same time, except for the damsels (these were in the tank for 10 weeks for cycling).  I consulted my LFS and he suggested treating with No Ick.  He said it was invert and LR safe.  He also suggested garlic with the food.
<... am sure you are familiar with my opinions with these materials, approach>
He did not say it would cure the ick, but it was a start.  I read over the medication, and started using it per the directions, after a 50% water change.  There was no difference in the amount of spots after 4 days.
<No surprise>
  I was testing everything each day.  on the 5th day I noticed a large ammonia spike.
<What? With the "reef safe" "med.?". What a shock!>
I did a 30% water change, and added Ammo Lock.  I rechecked it the next morning and the ammonia had spiked overnight.  I knew at this point I had to do something,  all of the fish had spots.... stress from ammonia??
<Possibly a co-factor, but really just the causative organism cycling, reproducing...>
  I called a buddy and he had a spare tank for me to borrow.  I set it up with an airstone and some water from the main tank.  I had read about copper treatment on your website, so I purchased Cupramine, and a test kit.  I dropped the SPG to 1.018, raised the temp to 83, and set the copper at about .35 per the directions.  I was doing 50% water changes per day and dosing with copper after the change, per the testing. I am happy to say that after one full week, the spots are gone.
<Yay! Congrats>
  I am planning on maintaining the copper for another week and then gradually getting back to normal in the QT.  What are your thoughts on what I have done thus far???
<The second trial I am in agreement with>
Here is the problem now.  My main tank was off the charts with ammonia.  My best guess was that the No Ick killed all of my biological filtration.
<Mine as well>
Again, from reading postings, I dropped my SPG down to 1.012, raised the temp, and did several water changes.  The only thing left in the tank no are the decorations and the LR.  I am not sure if it has been hurt or not. |
<It has, but likely not irreparably>
I did find several bristle worms, and other critters floating (the ammonia spike???).  How long do I need to leave this tank fallow and at a low SPG??
<About eight weeks>
What can I do to ensure I have eradicated all of the unwanted critters, with out harming the LR, if not already????
<About the same amount of time... in all likelihood you will not attain a 100% "kill" of the Cryptocaryon... but the likelihood of it gaining pathogenicity is small>
I know I will need to keep the fish in the QT for at least 3 to 4 more weeks.  My best guess is that the main tank will have to completely re-cycle again.  I hope to speed it up some by utilizing the LR and adding Stress Zyme.  Any other suggestions??
<Patience... visits to stores, friends tanks, contemplation>
Again, thank for the website and you sharing your knowledge with beginners like me!!
Sincerely
Jeff Hutcherson
<A pleasure, Thank you for sharing your experiences. Bob Fenner>