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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 23

Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts, Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic DiseaseQuarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes

Related FAQs: Best Crypt FAQs, Crypt FAQs 1, Crypt FAQs 2, Crypt FAQs 3, Crypt FAQs 4, Crypt FAQs 5, Crypt FAQs 6, Crypt FAQs 7, Crypt FAQs 8, Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14, Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17, Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 24, Crypt FAQs 25, Crypt FAQs 26, Crypt FAQs 27, Crypt 28, Crypt 29, Crypt 30, Crypt 31, Crypt 32, Crypt 33, Crypt 34, & FAQs on Crypt: Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Phony Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,  Products That Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power, ), Formalin Containing: (e.g. Quick Cure),  About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive Fishes:  By Fish Group: Sharks/Rays, Morays and other Eels, Mandarins/Blennies/Gobies, Wrasses, Angels and ButterflyfishesTangs/Rabbitfishes, Puffers & Kin...  &  Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine Velvet Disease, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Best Quarantine FAQs, Quarantine 1, Quarantine 2, Quarantine 3, Quarantine 4Quarantine 5Quarantine 6Quarantine 7Quarantine 8Quarantine 9Quarantine 10Quarantine 11, Quarantine 12, Quarantining Invertebrates

Oh, spotty boy!

Complications arising from treatment for Ich on a Acanthurus achilles   9/1/06 Hi Bob, <Matt> Firstly thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply. About seven weeks ago I purchased an Achilles tang after years of wanting one I finally felt I had the system capable of supporting one. He initially went into my refugium for a month and proceeded to do very well with no signs of ill health and eating voraciously, after being introduced into the display he showed a few spots for about 10 days before he worsened considerably. I made the decision to remove him to Hypo at that point. I lowered him to what I thought was 1.009 however later discovered it to be 1.012 due to a faulty hydrometer. Whilst in hypo he degraded into the worst case of Ich I have ever seen. The fish was totally listless and unable to move effectively. I was concerned that I may have a strain resistant to Hypo so decided to administer a half dose of Cupramine. Within three days all signs of Ich had abated, and with the specific gravity being maintained at 1.010 I decided to replace the carbon and remove the Cupramine. Now five days later the Ich has not returned, respiratory rate is normal. <Good> My problem is the fish is still very listless, unable to control his orientation and is not eating. <Not too surprising> Could I have somehow poisoned him with Cupramine or would a massive Ich infection cause enough electrolyte imbalance to cause these ongoing symptoms? <Perhaps a bit of both> I am at a loss, I don't know whether to slowly raise the salinity once more in the hope that may help or whether to wait it out. <I would raise the spg... a thousandth per day or so> It has been about a week now since he last ate and I am concerned that he will become to weak to recover. <Me too> Thank you in advance for your reply Matt <Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>

Ich and The Goby   8/30/06 Hello again.   Thanks for the help with bitten Big Mama (RIP).  Now I have an ichy marine question. Though I quarantined my teeny pink skunk clown fish in my partner's ISO tank for 3 weeks, I neglected to (of course) quarantine the 3 green Chromis and 1 reticulated humbug damsel I put in when I first started the tank (i.e., the Chromis and damsel are the original inhabitants).  To date, the Chromis & damsel remain ich free.  The clowns, OTOH, are most definitely not.  They are covered in ich (some mornings it looks like I tossed them in my sugar bowl, though they look much better within a couple of hours) and though fire shrimp is doing his best to keep up with it (and my local LFS is out of cleaner shrimp), and we did desperately try NSF (completely useless) as a last resort, the clowns remain ichy.  They are however eating, swimming, no clamped fins and no laboured breathing, no cloudy eyes - they just look like sugary clownfish. <Too likely to become debilitated... killed on next cycle...> My tank is 30 gallons and has about 50lbs of live rock, several hermits and snails, two corals, the fire shrimp and a pistol shrimp, who is best pals with his friend the pink spotted Watchman Goby.  Which leads me to my question(s):  I have set up a 10 gallon ISO tank treated with "Coppersafe" and the fish will be making this their new home for the next 6 weeks after I dismantle all the live rock tonight to catch them (*sigh*) and let the main tank go fallow.  I know Gobies are sensitive to copper and don't want to kill him in the ISO tank, but am afraid if I leave him in the main tank the Ich will have someone to live on. <Will> Goby currently remains Ich-free and was in the LFS for 3 weeks with no problems before I broke down and bought him and pistol shrimp.   The clowns came down with the Ich the day after I added Goby (whom I could not quarantine because the QT tank I was using at the time has a purple tang in it 2/3rds of the way through its quarantine) (complicated, yes, sorry).  Plus I had read that Gobies were pretty disease resistant.  Goby does not bother anyone in the tank, so I don't think he is stressing out the clowns.  My water has been excellent and no fishy deaths. 1) Is Goby better off in the big tank or the ISO tank?  Can he survive the copper? <I'd move... have to remove all fish/vectors... and treat on the low side of physiological dosing... 0.15, 0.20 ppm free cupric ion> 2) If I leave him in the main tank, is he going to host the dreaded Ich cycle so my fish can never return? <Yes> 3) If I do separate him from his friend Pistol Shrimp  for 6 weeks does that mean the relationship is over, or will absence make the heart grow fonder? <Will become re-acquainted on return> 4) How long before I can consider the Chromis ich-free and return them safely to the LFS, as I don't really wish to keep them. <A month or so. Bob Fenner> Thanks so much. Sheena

Ich and Cloudy Eye  8/28/06 Hello guys. I just lost a Kole tang to ich.  Now my gold stripe clown, that "lives" in a Sebae anemone, has a cloudy eye, but no heavy breathing. <Could be otherwise asymptomatic> I have two other fish (a lawn-mower blenny and a damsel) in my 90 gallon reef tank that show no signs of any problems.  Are these two issues related?   <Likely so, yes... Did you remove, treat all fishes? If not, your system and other fishes are infested...> I have tested my water and everything is in the ideal range.  Is there anything I could be missing?  Do I need to put in any treatments?  I've read that copper is bad for reefs, so how do I treat for ich?  Thank you very much, you all have been a huge help in the past, and hopefully you have good news for me now. Sincerely, Emily <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and the linked files above... Not all, just enough till you understand what your options are... Bob Fenner> Quick Cure... or quick death  8/25/06 I have a very important question. I am using Quick Cure to treat Ick . <Malachite Green and Formalin... very dangerous> I have my fish in a 10 gallon QT and the Quick Cure has been working great. The dose for Quick Cure is 1 drop per gallon for 5 days. Say I do a 100% water change on the 4th day because of high nitrites and because I wanted to move them to a new 10 gallon setup do I put 40 drops in the new tank or is that too much? <Is way too much...> Do I just put in 10? <Never more than one drop per actual gallon> Please help, I do not want the 40 drops to be to concentrated and kill the fish. Another way to put it is if I do a 50% water change on the 3rd day do I just put in 10 for that day or do I have to put in more to compensate the drops I put in for days 1 and 2? Thanks <... one drop per gallon as changed, replaced, time going by... Bob Fenner>

Re: Quick Cure  - 08/26/06 Thanks for reply. Makes me feel much better to get information from such a highly respected source! I know the Quick Cure directions say use for 5 days, but what if all the ick is not gone yet? <Continue for full course of treatment... the parasite can/does "cycle" off the host fishes...> Allot <A lot> of people say they use for 14 days to make sure all the ick is killed. <Too long, toxic> The fish do not looked stressed at all. Also off the current subject do you think I can put 2 Sailfin Tangs together? <In a very large system, likely yes. See WWM re the genus, Compatibility> One from the Red Sea is the new one I might get and smaller, the current one is the Zebrasoma Tang and is bigger and has been in the tank for a few months, Thanks Again <Bob Fenner>

Re: Quick Cure, Crypt, PBT Dis, reading  8/27/06 Thanks Again for your reply. I have one more question. I have a Hippo Tang (Ick Magnet) in the QT. I have been dosing him with the Quick Cure for 6 days today and would like to stop but he still has Ick. He was doing better days 3,4,5 with very little visible Ick but then today he has more on him. I thought it was just about to be all gone. <... I would not treat this fish with formalin and Malachite Green... under most circumstances> I know you said the Quick Cure is toxic so I do not want to dose him too long. What would you do if it was your fish? <Please read.... Here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and here: http://wetwebmedia.com/paracdisfaqs.htm and the linked files above...> I also have a Sailfin tang and he has shown no signs of Ick since day 2 or 3. I have been doing 30% water changes. Right now the Nitrites are at .25 and the ammonia lower then 1.0 so I am about to do another 40% change. So since the Quick Cure treatment is over and the Hippo Tang still has Ick what are my options now, Thanks <Don't write... read. Bob Fenner>

Ich treatment/ copper dilemma  8/25/06 Dear Crew at WWM, <Kim> Thanks for your help with my Ich problem. It is a lengthy story, but I will try to keep it simple. <Okay> I have a 5 ft , 9 month old reef tank with loads of live rock and thick shell grit/gravel base. Stock - various inverts, 1 Hippo Tang, 1 pair Ocellaris Clownfish, 1 pair Clark's Clownfish.  Very happy aquarium until Ich outbreak on my Tang (regretfully not dipped/quarantined - Lesson learnt.) <Ahh, yes> We had a 6 hour power outage 1 week prior to his outbreak, which I am assuming was the catalyst, as water parameters all fine.  My LFS recommended treating my whole tank with "Vertonex" (quinine and malachite green) for 4 days - <... I would NOT do this> said "I may loose a coral or two".  So I put my corals in a large crate with air stones and filter, and treated tank for 4 days, with no improvement of Ich - slightly worsened actually. <Sigh...>   Which is of no surprise, as I have since researched Ich and treatment, and have consequently lost faith in my LFS. After extensive review of your site and others, I set up a treatment tank, transferred all fish ( Clark's Clowns also now showing a few body spots), with an aim to copper treatment for 2 weeks (due to Tang) and fallow the main tank for 5 weeks. <Good> The only available copper treatment I could get (largish town, eastern coast Australia) was "Oodinaid" by Aquasonic (copper sulphate + Aminacrine), and an Aquasonic copper test kit.  I dosed the tank as per instructions, but was unable to test copper level as the kit was not working <Likely old reagents...> (very frustrated, live out of town, unable to make it back to shops before closing in order to change).  3 hours after treatment my Clark's male started swimming on his side, <Yikes... water changes...> around in circles, and ended up wedging himself between filter and tank in order to stay upright.  I assumed toxicity <Very likely so> ( water parameters normal, in particular 0 nitrites and ammonia) and as I only have the one treatment tank set-up, did a 50% water change and added carbon to the filter, with more water changes the following day. <Good>   To top things off the heater somehow became unplugged with a drop of water temp when I got home to 70 dF - I was devastated.  Any way, today, 2 days after circling, my Clark's clown has finally come out, and looks 100%, eating again etc.  My Hippo Tang seems a bit frazzled since the temp drop and is eating less (but can see no external signs of Ich). Finally, my dilemma!  I am assuming that my Clark's male has an increased sensitivity to copper although I cannot guarantee that the copper was not at toxic levels as I was unable to test (did keep some water to test later <Mmm, these tests have to be done in "real time" to be accurate> but it was confiscated by my 2 1/2  year old son, <Heeeee!> however it was the first treatment, following dosage to the "T". So what do you recommend treating my fish with?? <A chelated form of copper... this product was likely just copper sulfate pentahydrate...> I am thinking hyposalinity or the 50% water change technique prescribed at Reefkeeping.com. <Am not a fan...> My LFS sent my husband home to me today with more quinine to retreat for 7 days, being very skeptical about the water change option. I can't see quinine working this time if it didn't work last time, and I am cautious of exposing my Clark's clown to chemicals this soon. <Quinine compounds are actually quite safe... can be effective...> The good news is all my inverts are doing well in the main tank, so I assume (or am I hoping?!) the live rock etc was not damaged severely by the initial treatment. <Me too> I am extremely grateful for your time and advise. Thank you, Kim. <Do read on WWM re chelated copper and test kits for same... Hyposalinity may forestall further cycling of the parasite, but will not likely effect a cure of its own accord. Are there "mail-order" pet-fish businesses (etailers) in Australia? Cheers, Bob Fenner> New To Fish, No Research - 08/08/2006 I have a 30 Gallon tank and my husband and I knew nothing about fish. <Hello.  Let me first apologize for the delay in reply....  Your email came to us in a state that very few of us can read; I apologize for my delay.> We let the tank cycle for three weeks with 5 pound of live rock. Then we put two clown fish in it. <Hopefully this was "actually" cycled....> After a week we bought a Tiny Hippo Blue tang <This fish cannot survive long in a 30 gallon tank.  It needs FAR more space than this.> and of course she got ick <.... ALL fish should be quarantined prior to adding them to your system....> we treated them with medication and all of our fish died after all, we even give them a fresh water dip and nothing helped.   <Need to research, here....> Now we have a bare tank and we don't know what to do. How long should we wait for the water and the rocks to be cleared of ick? And the medication in the water?  What would you suggest we start with, we really want to buy a bigger tank in a year could we hold a tiny blue tang in there for a year and then switch to a bigger tank. Should we put the Clown fish first and then the blue tank or the other way around?  We do not have a quarantine tank, what is the best suggestion to start all over? <Please begin reading, researching....  Your questions are not unique, and have been asked by many beginners.  You'll find the answers to what you seek here:   http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/index.htm .  Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>

Marine Ick Treatment - 08/06/06 Hi Bob, <<Hello Poulo...EricR here this morning...>> This is Poulo here.  Let me get straight to the problem... 1. Standard 55 gallon tank with DSB of 4-inches with UG filtration @ 1100 lit/hr <<Mmm, not a "true" DSB if employed over an under-gravel filter.  The under-gravel filter can also become a detritus trap...best to remove in my opinion>> 2. Sump of 40 lit 3. Fish only tank without live rock 4. The fauna: 1 X Saddleback Clown, 1 X Three-lined Butterfly, 1 X Coral Beauty Angel, 20 X mix of Turbo/ Babylonia snails, 2 X medium sized Blue-legged Hermits, 1 X CAMEL SHRIMP The main problem.... the Coral beauty and Butterfly are loaded with ICH, while the Saddleback is not.  I would like to ask you whether I can treat them with hyposalinity + elevated temperature, after removing the Hermits and Snails. <<No, you need to treat these fishes with a copper-based treatment...and NOT in the display.  Best to remove "all three" fishes to a treatment tank and let the display system sit fallow for six weeks (please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm)>> The second problem...  It is going to be mindblowingly difficult to remove the Camel Shrimp because of lots of porous base rock. Can he handle the low salinity? <<Not recommended...Don't try this>> Or what are the best suggestions you can give. <<As previously outlined>> Regards, Poulo <<Cheers mate, EricR>>

Ick Ick Ick   7/24/06 Good Morning, <And to you> I am in need of some advice for an Ick problem I am currently dealing with. <Okay> I am in the process of moving my fish from a 90 gallon to a 350 gallon system. After removing the Ozone from the 90 gallon tank, my Hippo Tang and Purple Tang became infested with Ick <Ahh, present already...> and my Queen Angel started to show some spots as well. (I have never introduced a fish that has not been properly quarantined, so I am nor sure how it got in there). <A latent infestation... very easily "space" on a tang...> I removed all of my fish from the 90 (Queen, Hippo, Purple Tang) and placed them in a 35 Gallon Quarantine Tank with some of the Live rock from the Main system. (The 2 Tangs are only 3 inches long and the Queen is about 4 inches) Since I have an Angel, I do not want to dose copper as I lost another Angel to this a while back. Also, without the live rock or some type of filter (which I have to pull out if I dose copper), I am going to get Ammonia buildup pretty quickly. <Yes> I was thinking that I would slowly lower the salinity in the QT to 1.010 and raise the Temp to about 82/83. <Could> Would that be enough? <Not likely...> Your thoughts/advise would be greatly appreciated. Keith <Mmm, a bunch to relate Keith... and not knowing more about your background, not easy to summarize here/now. I strongly encourage you to peruse the articles, FAQs files on Crypt, Hyposalinity treatments archived on WWM... starting here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and going back/forth on the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick Ick Ick   7/24/06 Thanks for the quick response. I have/had gone over the articles you linked to and it appears that if you think that Hyposalinity is not the answer, then I only have 2 choices. <Yes> Copper 0.15-0.25 ppm for 7 to 10 days. With the Queen in the tank, is this level ok? I would have to remove all of the live rock first and monitor ammonia while doing daily water changes. <Yes, this is the route I would go/take> Formalin sounds pretty scary from most of the posts here but is it the only option for my queen? <No... is more dangerous than copper exposure by far> Some posts say yes, others say no. If I used this, I would also have to remove the Live Rock and monitor ammonia, correct, or is it a bit more forgiving. <Less... is a general biocide... kills all life> These seem to be the only real options. I have to do one of them ASAP. Also, regardless of the selection. Should I freshwater bath them first or just spare them that stress and treat the QT. Thanks! <I would dip them enroute. Bob Fenner>

Hawaiian Fourline Wrasse w/ white spots  7/23/06 I have a question about my Hawaiian Fourline Wrasse (Pseudocheilinus tetrataenia)... He's been in my reef tank for a little over a year, and over the last few weeks, when the fish wakes up in the morning, he has small white spots on his body and fins, 30 or 40 spots total. These spots resemble grains of salt, and within 3 or 4 hours of the lights coming on, they are all gone. <Is Cryptocaryon>   I am wondering if these are just pieces of sand & debris that the fish picks up when he hides or buries himself at night? <Mmm, no> If so, I don't know why they would suddenly appear after a year's time? <A latent, space-infested problem...> If they are a skin parasite or some sort of infection, then why would they disappear every day? <Improvement in the diurnal resistance, immune system of the host... the spots are not the parasite... the parasite not the spots... but the resultant irritation marks...> The Hawaiian Fourline Wrasse it acting normal, and has a healthy appetite.  He is not being harassed by any other fish or invertebrates. All of the other occupants of the tank appear completely healthy. Water parameters: pH - 8.3 Nitrite, Ammonia - 0 Nitrate - undetectable Calcium - 410ppm dKH - 11 SG - 1.026 Temperature ranges from 81.7F-83.1F daily Thank you in advance for any advice, Steve in Denver <Could be that you might get by with this "ping-ponging" situation for years hence... Much more likely "something/s" will change to shift the balance in the parasites favor... see WWM re Crypt... what you might do/consider for actual eradication. Bob Fenner>

How Ich Infects 7/22/06 First of all let me say thank you for the encyclopedia of information on your site. Virtually every question that an aquarist can have has probably already been asked and answered by your team. <Always more to learn.>  The wealth of information on the site is amazing and one has to be willing to spend some time reading through the articles and Q&As. <Can be overwhelming at times for sure.> Here's my question...and it has to do with Marine Ich....surprise, surprise.  <For sure.>   From everything I've read about Marine Ich, on your site and other resources, I've gathered that it is a parasitic protozoan that goes through a regular life cycle like other protozoa. I've also read that some fish under extreme stress like poor water quality, instability in temperature, small tank size etc can suddenly contract the disease.  <The stress suppresses the immune system, making them more susceptible to the disease.> This especially happens with some Ich prone fishes like the Regal/Blue Hippo Tang for instance. I've read that a Regal Tang that has been healthy for months can suddenly develop Ich when exposed to stress. How is this possible? I mean if Marine Ich is a really protozoan how can it all of a sudden just appear out of nowhere?  <Is already there, just not in sufficient numbers to effect the fish.>  A protozoan is a living thing and life is derived from life...<Depends on who you ask Æ'º> How can it just appear all of a sudden. This is baffling to me. Is the ich always there lurking in the shadows just waiting to attack weak or stressed fish?  <Basically yes.>  Or does the fish always have Ich in some dormant form and the disease only breaks out of this dormancy and start to attack when the fish is most exposed to stress. <Not really dormant, just not at a level that causes the usual symptoms.>  I don't know...just speculating here. Your thoughts.... <Basically in most tanks there is some level of the Ich parasite.  When a fish becomes a more ¡§willing¡¨ host the Ich is able to quickly multiply at cause the well know symptoms of the infestation.  Let me take a moment to use this as an excuse to advertise QT tanks.  IF you are able to catch and eradicate the Ich before it makes it to the main tank, the condition of the fish in the main tank, no matter how bad, will not get Ich.  They may get other things of course, but Ich must be present in the system beforehand in order for a fish to catch it.> <Chris>

Marine crypt - 7/15/6 ... I have a 100gal saltwater tank and a 30-gallon sump.  It used to be a reef setup but 60% of the fish and coral died so I went to fish only. <<Oh, my gosh.. What happened?! I have 3 triggers and a porcupine puffer. <<I hope not all in the 100-gallon.  That isn't enough room for an adult porcupine puffer alone.  They get to 18+ inches!>> A few days after I got the puffer he got ich. Just like I read they are very susceptible to getting ich. <<Not if it isn't introduced. Did you quarantine all fish before introduction?>> I gave him one 5 min FW dip. <<The parasite is still in the tank.  Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm.>> I have a UV sterilizer, protein skimmer and the chemical "kick ich" being used. <<Please do not use such treatments in the main tank, and not on puffers.>> The bad boy still has ich and I need to get rid of it. <<Read the article I linked you.>> The kick ich is working for the other triggers without any problems but the puffer is just covered it's like he was sprayed. <<He is in a tank too small for him with very aggressive tank mates.  Addressing this is vital here, as is hyposalinity treatment.>> My nitrates are through the roof and into the sky at aprox. 240ppm --- I will be doing a 60% water change at one time because my small 20% are not doing anything. <<Good god, no wonder your puffer is so sick.  80% once or twice per day with aged SW is not too much here.>> Ammonia is very low <<Should be completely zero at all times in a cycled tank, period.>> and nitrites are 0.   <<That's good.>> I have a 12gal tank which is housing a new Picasso trigger to avoid this dreaded tank. <<Please, please tell me this fourth trigger is not destined to the cramped 100-gallon too?!>> What I need help with is getting rid of the ich on the puffer besides the "kick ich" that I'm using.  Should I be doing daily FW dips? <<No, please read.>> I've already lost thousands of dollars worth of fish and corals and now my try with fish only is turning into a disaster.  I didn't think nitrates would kill fish but they did die, day after day in multiples.>> <<Of course, toxins kill fish.>> What also do you recommend for the removal of green algae and red slime covering every rock and wall in the tank? <<Nutrient export through water changes and refugiums.  I assume your water changes are not up too snuff, given your nitrate levels (and no, 20% are not big enough in a tank so grossly overstocked.>> I've used (Ultra Life red slime remover) but it's quite expensive and I would rather not clean every rock by hand. <<Products like that are temporary at best.  Address the cause of the problem.>> Thanks CK.    (Ps... I do click all the links and look at them for your income because you are a very powerful site and one that should be continued.) <<Please take the time to read it then CK.  Lisa.>>

Re: Marine crypt - 7/18/6 Thank you Lisa for your reply. <<You're welcome.>> I didn't explain everything in full, so here is the update. There are two triggers and a porcupine puffer in the 100 gallon.  I have a small Picasso trigger in the 12gallon for quarantine before it goes into the show tank. I do not plan on keeping the fish till they reach their full size. They will be traded in once I'm satisfied they are too big for the tank. <<Why? Would you buy a pet cat or dog knowing you couldn't keep it?  Fish are animals in our care, not coasters.  Also, stunting occurs in such a way that the fish may not look too big for their tank, as their growth is slowed/halted.>> Right now they are all only 2" in length. <<Not for long.>> I did my 60% water change and nitrates are about 40ppm and ammonia is aprox 0.25 ppm. <<Why are you reading anything more than 0 ammonia?>> I'm going to try a phosphate reactor with nitrate removal media to bring down nitrates as well. <<Don't waste your money.  This is a maintenance and husbandry issue that needs to be solved by you.>> The puffer will be moved to the 12gallon with a small trigger after a f/w dip. <<That's too bad. Lisa.>> -Ck

Re: Marine crypt - 7/18/6 You are correct about keeping a pet dog or cat, but their enclosures are limited to the size of a house.  If a dog gets to big for the house you must get a bigger house or remove him from the house.  I do care about my fish and maybe in the future will get an even larger tank but at this time if I had a huge fish in the tank it would have to go. <<I understand that. I'm just not understanding why you would buy them in the first place if you can not house them for their lifespan.>> I'm not sure about my ammonia why its so high.  .. I have a sump with skimmer in it. <<That doesn't affect your bio-filter.  Do you have access to Bio-Spira?>> Do you _not_ believe that those phosphate/nitrate reactors work?   <<I would never use one, no.  In your case the remedy is so clearly water changes, maintenance and husbandry.>> I hate having the puffer in such a small tank but its healthy water.  Since putting the puffer in with the Picasso, the Picasso now has ich. <<Of course it does.>> I'm doing FW dips but I need to use some chemical to destroy it completely. <<No you don't.>> Is there anything you recommend?  I read that copper is out. <<Please read the files I have linked you.  Reduce the SG to ~1.017 slowly, and keep it there for a few weeks.  You will have to do massive water changes on this small tank, as your bio-filter will not handle the drop in SG well.  I'm talking as much as it takes to keep ammonia and nitrIte at ZERO, everyday.  Come check out www.thepufferform.com.  I am the mod lisalisa, should you have more questions.  Good luck my friend. Lisa>> Ich and a Trigger 7/15/06 I have a 37g cube tank with a bicolor blenny, neon Dottyback, Fourstripe damsel, and 6" niger trigger. <Too small for the trigger.> I am picking up an established tank today as a new home for the fish, but wouldn't you know it, the fish have been scratching a bit the last few days. <Good for the new tank.> I couldn't see any visible ich but last night I could actually see a few tiny spots. This being the case, I am wondering whether/how to treat them before I introduce them into the new tank. <Several options.> I have used the tank transfer method outlined by Steven Pro before with good results using my two 'spare' tanks, a 10g and 20g tall and two sets of powerheads/heaters, transferring the fish to a cleaned dried tank with 100% water change every three days. However, do you think these two tanks would be too small for the 6" trigger in such a small space along with the other three fish? <Probably> Using the tank transfer method, no filter media is used...you rely on 100% water changes (matching parameters perfectly) every three days. However with the size of the fish, I worry that the ammonia will build too quickly to high levels before the end of day three. <Would probably have to be done either daily or every 2 days.> The only established media that I can use is, I have a CPR Bak pak skimmer on the tank with some bioballs in the side which I just added about a week ago. Would this be enough, and even if so, would I be thwarting my efforts of effecting a cure by retaining possible ich cysts from the main tank? <Probably.> One more thing on this course of action. Once before during a qt with ammonia problem, I used AmQuel plus in an attempt to reduce ammonia levels (bind harmful ammonia to a less destructive form). However my test kit still read the same high level of ammonia. <Most can not differentiate between the different forms.>  I heard that most test kits measure total ammonia and that the SeaChem test kit measures free ammonia (i.e. only the harmful ammonia that hasn't been 'bound' by the AmQuel). Have you any insight on this? <I would use the Seachem.>      My other option is to leave the fish in the tank with no treatment other than brushing/siphoning the sand/rocks off every couple days when doing a small water change, to try to reduce the number of free swimming parasites/cysts, and feeding garlic <at best a appetite stimulant>, and letting them fight it off on their own. Then, adding them to the new large tank (remember its already established). Or, option three, since its such a low grade infestation right now, would be to simply remove the fish, freshwater dip them, and add them to the new tank and hope for the best. <Will take the Ich with you in this method.> Y'all are smart, what would you do?? <What are you doing with the 37G?  If possible I would turn this into a QT/hospital tank and treat with copper.  Otherwise use the 20 for the trigger and the 10 for the other fish and treat here.  Not an ideal situation of the trigger but better than letting it be in my opinion.> <Chris>

Re: do you approve of this plan? Ich and a Trigger of 7/15/06   7/22/06 Thanks so much for your reply, sorry for not getting back sooner. <The prev. corr. is not included below, just your initial message... will try to respond nonetheless> I have acquired two larger tanks in order to do the tank transfer method so as to not stress the fish too much in close quarters. Will keep an eye on ammonia, if gets too high before day three, will do water changes as necessary. I have opted not to do copper as I do not have a biological filter/media and think that the frequent water changes are a necessary evil in this case; besides since copper is immunosuppressant. Again, thanks for your help. If you are interested I can report back on results/problems/solutions with this method. Take care! <Thank you for this. Will try to find the prev. corr. and log all together. Bob Fenner>

Mini outbreaks of ich SW 7/14/06 Dear Crew, <Sandra>     First off, thank for all the info posted on the  site it has proven to be a great resource.  I am new to marine tanks and  have learned much in the past few months.  I follow the recommendations of  aging the water used for water changes along with matching ph, salinity and so  on and this has worked well. <Ahh! Good> I have also set up and used a small 10g  quarantine tank (4 weeks for each addition) before introducing anything into my  larger 55g.   <Ding ding ding ding... go to the head of the class> Hopefully to become a larger tank if this is the hobby for me as I already owned this tank.   Both tanks have optimal water quality  with a ph of 8.2, salinity btw 1.021 to 1.023. <Mmm... do try to keep this a bit more steady...> Nitrates and Nitrites in  both tanks are zero as well as the ammonia levels.  I do weekly water  changes of about 10% on each as I said with aged water.  Also, the 55g does  have a SeaClone protein skimmer (which I know is not the greatest, but it truly  is working very well.) <Good>     Now for my question,  in the larger 55g tank I  have had two "mini" outbreaks of ich,  the fish are still eating well and  do not seem to be overly bothered.   I guess sometimes "ich just  happens". <Uhh, no... is "caused" or perhaps better put, "allowed"... There are specific pathogen free systems. Yes, ones that are absent "crypt" entirely... Disallowing such introduction through careful quarantine, dips/baths, possibly treatments can/is done> I am quite sure this is the issue as I have had freshwater fish  for years and it looks the same in both cases.   <Do agree with you here (of course), and am much more of a/the mind that FW ich is omnipresent, or at least extremely hard to in turn "disallow" compared with the holociliate protozoan species found in seawater> The larger tank contains: 1 Gramma 1 yellow tang 3 scarlet hermit crabs 2 turbo snails     Since the fish do not seem overly infected is there  any possibility they can kick the infection on the own or will the ich get  progressively worse in subsequent life cycles? <Mmm... how to put this...? There is/can be a "balance" that is struck, even acquired immunity one can "count on" with/in time... With the current fishes "getting used" to latent, sub-clinical infestation. A/the real problem becomes either with introducing new potential hosts (fishes) or an event that strongly mal-influences the present fish livestock's impunity...> Secondly, if I move them to  the 10g tank, (so the main tank can go fallow) is it a must to treat them, or  more of a watch and see situation? <Likely would have to be treated... to maximize the possibility of eradication... However... please see my note below> There are so many different choices  that I am really unsure of what I should use in the quarantine tank. Thirdly,  do the hermit crabs and snails need to be removed also or  are they not considered hosts for the bacteria? <Invertebrates need not be removed in these situations> Your experience has saved me a lot of time and effort and I have not  had any losses since I set up the tanks about 6 months ago and would hate to start now. Thanks again, Sandra <Now, if it were me/mine... and I intended to not add more fishes here, I would just leave all as is... Should you find yourself wanting to add new fish sometime down the way... I would carefully quarantine them over a month or more time using the water from the main tank... In a way "vaccinating" the new fish/es... Bob Fenner>

Re: Mini outbreaks of ich  7/15/06 Just one quick follow up if I may.  I have  decided to go ahead and remove the fish from the main tank and let it go  fallow. is four or six weeks recommended? <<6-8 is my two cents.>> Secondly, what would be the  preferred method of treating my two fish? Once again they are a Royal  Gramma and a Yellow Tang.  I have already moved them into the quarantine  tank and have the copper additive ready to go, but have read that Tangs are  sensitive to copper.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. <<Hyposalinity (1.017-1.018) gets my vote.>> Thanks again, Sandra <<Glad to help. Lisa.>>

Quarantine for established fish? 7/12/06 Hi Crew. I enjoy reading your site and have learned a tremendous amount, thanks. <<Glad to hear!  Thanks for the kind words.>> Prior to finding your site and the importance of a QT, my tank got ich.  My ich magnet / blue hepatus tang was treated with Cupramine in a  hospital tank and did fine (approx 6 mo.s ago). <<Good to hear!  If your display was free of fish for at least a month, it should have been rendered ich free at that point, and leaving you with nothing to worry about.>> I am now in the process of setting up a larger tank (92 gal to a 225) and will be transferring my fish and live rock. My understanding is that ich doesn't go away but rather kept in check, so should I fresh water dip and then quarantine the fish for a month (maybe under hyposaline conditions) prior to transfer, and thereby allowing my tank to be fallow as well for the live rock to insure no ich in the new tank  vs. just Fw dip and transfer? <<Hmm... The debate about the whether you can have an ich free tank will rage on forever.  If you believe that it is possible to achieve, then you should believe that your tank is currently ich free and you can simply transfer everything to the new tank.  If you don't believe it is possible to have an ich free tank, then you should believe that the numbers of parasites is sufficiently low and your fish are sufficiently healthy that it isn't a problem.... and you can simply transfer the fish to the new system.  The bottom line is that unless you are adding something new that could be bringing in new disease, quarantine is not necessary.  If you do get an outbreak (of any disease) due to the stress of the transfer, you will have to re-assess at that point.  Best Regards.  AdamC.> Disease/Ich  6/29/06 After introducing a Regal Tang, Yellow Tang, and Powder Brown Tang in a 240 gallon reef, 11 month old tank, my Regal Tang, after two weeks caught ich and it's on and off for about a week now. Also no matter how much it ate, it just kept getting skinnier. I made sure I quarantined all of the tangs at least 7 weeks in a 80 gallon to be sure, knowing they are prone to ich and also fed them a varied diet consisting of sea veggies red and purple seaweed, Caulerpa, Spirulina 20 and occasionally squid and Mysis shrimp dipped in garlic liquid, and I acclimated them with a slow drip for 3 hours each. Did not want to do a freshwater dip for it will cause to much stress on the delicate tangs. What can be the reason for the outbreak? I know it can't be stress because the fact I covered the tank with cloth to let them slowly acclimate to their surroundings. But for some reason the regal just is slowly getting skinnier and ick prone after my best efforts in doing what's best for them. My tank is 240g long and wide with about 300+ lbs of Fiji live rock (which I got for $25 per 40lbs from a friend at the LFS) and a 4 inch DSB filled and over populated with SPS some LPS and softies, 7 cleaner shrimps and a bunch of cleanups which I got from GARF. Running a 60 g sump with protein skimmer with a little UV zapper and an Aquaclear 300 in the sump to be sure, and a 20 g reserve top off, 60 fuge with a bunch of macro and 2 golden seahorses, running 3 20k 250 watt metal halides and 4 48" aconite blue. Ph 8.2 nitrite 0 nitrate 0 ammonia 0 phos .01 specific gravity 1.023 always and temp at a constant 76 F. Any advice would be appreciated. Anything wrong with my system? Or with how I introduced them. And yes I did read all the previous post on this subject which was not to many and was fairly different. <System sounds great to me.  Your QT period was long enough, for sure, so I'm thinking the ich came in as a hitchhiker with something you added afterwards. Could be a piece of live rock, macro, etc.  Your only hope would be to try and net the tang out, but, nearly impossible without dismantling most of the tank, which is also going to add stress to the other animals. Some folks have had luck with "Ich Attack", a Kordon product of herbal content only, and safe with inverts.  Here is a link to their product data sheet on this product. http://www.novalek.com/kpds.htm  You may want to send them a note before trying the product. <<There's no time for this... RMF>> Good luck.  James (Salty Dog).> - 'Gentle' Ich treatment for cowfish? (Tetrasomus gibbosus) 6/25/06 - Hello, <Good morning.> Have you ever had one of those frustrating days wherein the more you try to learn, the less you're sure of what you know? <Often.> Dear oh dear. <Bear with it.> I'm having one of them, and I really hope you can help. <I will do my best.> My problem, in brief, is a cowfish (Tetrasomus gibbosus.. common names pretty much too numerous to list!) with what has all the earmarks of a burgeoning ich infestation.  It started as one dot, vanished, came back as two, vanished.. etc. until he was covered with dots.  Hoping that I "hadn't seen that" was, in hindsight, a mistake. The cowfish is about an inch-and-half long; we've had him for about four months.  He is the sole inhabitant of a four year old 54 gallon (yes, 54.. corner bowfront) tank with around 20 pounds of liverock, about two inches of aragonite sand, and a large clump of cheerful and fast-growing Caulerpa (LFS calls it "saw tooth".. pretty accurate description of its narrow, jagged leaves).  The skimmer is a CPR Bakpak2, and the filter is an Eheim 2213.  My Visitherm heater has given me so little trouble that I cannot remember its wattage, and lighting is provided by aging PC bulbs (1 actinic, 1 daylight, 55w each.)  Salinity is 1.023, Ammonia and Nitrites are at 0, and Nitrates hover around 15-20ish.  Temp. is 78 F.  pH is about 8.2. Current moment finds "Roz" in a five-gallon Q tank, awaiting his fate.  He acts completely normal, and eats well, but the dots persist (I did try turning off the skimmer.. alas, it wasn't bubbles).  I don't know what to do:  half the crowd says that treating ich with hyposalinity is Great and Good, especially for copper-sensitive cowfish; the other half says that hyposalinity "treatments" are a waste of time, because they aren't curing anything. <I prefer hyposalinity as a dip or bath.> Everyone says "..and for the love of God, be CAREFUL with formalin if you haven't used it before, it is extremely toxic!" <THAT is for certain.> Aaahh, what to do!? <You actually have the answers right there.> I am slowly raising the temp in the empty main tank (had to crack coralline off the Visitherm to do so. haven't changed it since I set it out of the box!), to encourage the ich to 'cycle' itself and die, but I'm not sure what to do with the cowfish.  Mr. LFS sold me a wee bottle of Cupramine, but I haven't used it.  I also haven't dipped the cowfish, as Mr. LFS said there was no point in doing so (parasites under slime coat, etc.) <Even so, often remarkably effective.> Well, he was wrong about that, it seems. Drat. <Ahh... no worries, live and learn, right? We'll get Roz hooked up.> So.. what treatment course would you recommend, here?  The cowfish is well, hale and happy; but I know he won't stay that way without help. <Or will he? It's been my observation that some of the scaleless fishes are always carrying around something on their skin - not all of this group, but mostly the advanced ones (boxfish, puffers, etc.). In spite of these parasites, they always seem to keep on trucking and behave/eat like they always do with what seem to be no long term ill effects or contamination of tankmates. Could be that Roz is like this...> I've warmed the Q tank up a little, to about 80 F.. already there are fewer visible dots on him.  I did put gravel in the Q tank. a scant double handful of new, freshly washed coral gravel, because the shiny bottom appeared to be upsetting Roz quite badly. <Yes - is my strong belief that while some fish may react to their reflection in the side glass, many more are completely freaked by their reflection in the bottom glass. I paint my quarantine tanks or put contact paper on at least the bottom (outside).> That 'other cowfish' was talking trash, it would seem..  Should I remove it? <Without a doubt.> Would Paraguard/similar Malachite green formulation be a better choice than the Cupramine/copper formulation? <If things seem out of control, then yes, but I'm not sure we're at that point.> At this point, the wisest treatment course seems to be the gentlest, most patient one: if I'm starting with a healthy fish, then perhaps I can afford to expend more time/effort on my part to spare him a harsh, "last ditch" style of treatment... I have the luxury of a ich-y (haha!) fish who is still in good health... but I'm not sure how to be 'gentle' and still get rid of the ich. <It seems to me you had the answer all along. This is an otherwise healthy fish in an ideal situation - he has a 54 corner all to himself. I'd leave him be if he eats and behaves normally. If the spots are frequent and increasing, then I'd give it a long, pH/temperature-adjusted freshwater dip and then return to the main tank. If things move beyond that, I'd consider a Quick Cure/Paraguard bath in a bucket of tank water, treated for the amount of water in the bucket, perhaps an hour if the fish seems otherwise fine. But for now, a freshwater dip, return to the tank, and the resultant reduction in stress should work well. Perhaps some more live rock at some point down the line would help, but not right now. Keep on a good water change regimen (10% every 2 weeks) and I think Roz will be fine.> Thank you very, very much in advance! Ramie   <Cheers, J -- > Heniochus acuminatus with Ich 6/23/06 Hi WWM crew!! <Hi> I have an Heniochus acuminatus that show symptoms of ick. <Uh oh> It has white spots, that look like salt. It doesn't have that much but it still concerns me. <It should> It is still eating well. It doesn't breathe rapidly. All the other fish are healthy. <All other fish are infected with Ich, just not symptomatic.> I don't want to treat the main tank, because I have some invertebrate. <Almost always a bad idea.> I am not able to set up a hospital tank, I don't have the space for it, since I live in an apartment. <Really need one, doesn't need to be always set up, can be taken down when not in use.  Without a QT/hospital tank expect to continue to have problems with communicable diseases.> Yesterday, I have give it a freshwater bath( specific gravity: 1.008) with blue methylene for 10 minutes. <Provides temporary relief, not a cure.> But, today, it still shows symptoms of ICK. <Most likely will continue until the ich life cycle is broken.> What should I do to treat my fish? <If you are unable/unwilling to get a hospital/QT tank and remove and treat all fish and allow the tank to run follow there is not much you can do.  Provide good quality water and food and hope the fish's immune system and fight off the ich.> I have bought a Formaldehyde - green malachite solution to use it in a bath, but I am not sure if it is a good idea and how much should I use and for how long. <Toxic stuff, I'm not a big fan of it.  Baths will help temporarily, but when the fish is returned to the tank they will be reinfected.> Could I use copper in a bath that would last for a long time? <Not effective.> If yes, how much should I use and for how long? Any other treatment I could try? <Not that wouldn't nuke the tank.  Medications are not specific enough to kill the ich and not destroy the live rock and biofiltration.>    Thank you very very much!!! I hope my fish will be fine, I really like it!! <Hope so.> Steve T. <Chris>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part II 6/30/06 Hi Chris, <Hi> As per your advice, I am actually looking to setup a hospital tank for my fish, to help to get ride of the ick problem... I have 2 clown fish, 2 green Chromis, 1 neon goby, 1 six line wrasse and the Heniochus. What size of hospital should I go with? <Good to hear, at least a 20 for all those fish.  If easier you could go with a couple of smaller tanks and split up the livestock.> Today the Heniochus have stopped to eat... :( <Uh-oh> What is my best bet with it? Should I give it a freshwater bath until I set-up the hospital tank? Any other ideas? <A bath may help, make sure its ph adjusted and the right temperature.  Try adding either Selcon or garlic to the food.  Both seem to stimulate the feeding response.  If it goes too long try some live brine shrimp.> Thank you very much... Steve <Good luck and remember to QT any new additions to avoid these problems in the future.> <Chris>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part III 7/1/06 Hi again Chris, <Hi> Sorry to bother you again, <No bother.> I promise I will quarantine any new addition to my tank in the future. <Good> But, I just have a idea of what I could try to cure my fish from ick and get it out of my main tank. I know that the WWM crew are not big fan of hyposalinity, but could I just buy a tank (the one I would use in the future to quarantine any new addition) and use it to put all my hermit crab. They are the only invert I have in my system. I would put many pieces of live rock with them. So I would not kill all the zooplankton in LR and the crabs would be more safe... Could I lower the SPG in the main tank to kill the ick in it? I would keep the hermit crab apart for 6 weeks. Would it be effective? If yes, at what SPG would it cure the fish without being stressful to the fish? I have read from ATJ (the only name I have found of that guy) that the SPG should be at 1.009 to kill the ick. You can see this article here : '' http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html'' What do you think of that? <Well, it will get rid of the Ich if kept at that salinity long enough.  However, it will also kill off most of your live rock, and in the process cause a huge ammonia spike.  If you remove all the LR there will probably not be sufficient biofiltration and cause the same problem.> Thank you very very much for your help. If I found that the better treatment is the copper in a hospital tank, I will do it... Honestly, I don't feel confident about my capacity to keep them all alive in a basic none established system, though. <With lots of water changes should be fine.  Could also use Bio-Spira to jump start the biofiltration.> Steve <Chris>

Heniochus acuminatus with Ich Part IV 7/3/06 Hi again, <Hi> I just wanted to say that I should have listen to you one week ago. I mean I should have treated it as fast as I could. Even if the Heniochus had finally eaten yesterday, I have found it today in my overflow box dead. <Sorry to hear.>  I just feel like crap. The worst thing, it was my girlfriend fish... It was her birthday present. <Yeah, I learned that lesson the hard way too, no fish for gifts.>  I don't think she will like the tank anymore... I feel right now like I would give up too... It is sad that I had to make that fish die just to learn a so simple lesson!! <Been there, done that.  Almost quit after losing my possum wrasse, loved that fish.> So, I know that I will sing the same old song!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TO EVERYONE, don't be damn stupid like me, DO QUARANTINE YOUR FISH!!!!!!!! <A convert, and ready to give others the advice, some good out of a bad situation.> So now that the only really sick fish is dead (the wrasse only had 2-3 spots and it is now gone), should I just wait 1 week or 2 before I start to treat them in a hospital tank? <Start immediately.> I mean that way I could let some sponge in my tank to have some biofiltration ready for the quarantine process. <See if you ca find some Bio-Spira to kick-start the biofiltration.  But do not buy it if it hasn't been kept refrigerated, some stores don't and without it the bacteria will die.> Should I start using the biofiltration right at the beginning or after the copper treatment so, the copper would not kill the biofiltration?  <From the beginning.>  Can I use filter pad that absorb ammonia with a copper treatment? <No, all will also remove the copper as far as I know, just have lots of new salt water ready for water changes.>  If not, would it be better to use hyposalinity, so I could use absorbent resin to help to maintain good quality of water ? <Most of the bacteria cannot survive the salinity change anyway, so copper is probably the better way to go.> Again Thank YOU VERY VERY MUCH for your patience Chris!!! <Anytime> <Chris>

- Ich never to cease and barrel-rolling boxfish 6/23/06 - Hello WetWebMedia Crew! <Hello.> I'm an avid reader of your site! I hope you can help me like you've helped so many others. I have a 55 gallon tank with a male and female spotted boxfish, and a lionfish. Up until last week, it was just the female box and lion--both were eating and doing fine. However, I did notice some ich spots on the female box, so I removed the live rock, (considering this was a new tank, I left the base rock in, as I believed it didn't have enough time to have any of the nitrifying bacteria on it) and lowered the salinity down to about 1.011. The tank was left like this for a week, and I thought the ich had gone. Last week I added a male boxfish, quite a bit bigger than the female, to my tank by acclimating it in a separate quarantine tank to get it adjusted to my current salinity. Well the fish was added, and every one went back to their normal fish lives. However, the new male boxfish hasn't eaten a bite of food since I've gotten him more than a week ago. I've offered frozen and fresh mussel, a blend of frozen algae, Mysis and brine shrimp, Marine Cuisine, krill pieces, algae sheets, etc. It has thus far refused them all, but the female continues to feed eagerly. I wanted to try live black/bloodworms, but my LFS won't be able to get them in until next Tuesday. Anyways, the ich has come back within the last few days and viciously attacked both boxfish, covering them completely. They also both seem to have somewhat cloudy eyes, and the male will swim, and then do half of a "barrel-roll" in the water. Sometimes he'll swim down towards the rocks and do this, but he doesn't rub against them. So today I was reading around on the internet, and found somewhere that said hyposalinity wouldn't be effective unless the salinity was at 1.009. Well it made sense to me, since I've had the salinity at 1.011 for a good week, maybe more, and the ich was still there, strong as ever, so I did a water change and lowered it yet again down to 1.009. As we both know, it would be very unfortunate for one of my boxfish, (more than likely my male, as he's the one not eating and rolling around), to die and nuke out the rest of my tank. Is there anything I can do to get him to eat and make his odd behavior, as well as the ich on both boxfish go away? <How about bringing up the salinity to something marine fish can tolerate without excessive stress?> A hospital tank really isn't an option, as the only other tank I have at the moment is a 10 gallon quarantining a filefish, and both boxes would probably get even more stressed being in that small of a tank. <As opposed to the stress of 1.009 salinity?> I really thought the ich would have gone by now, maybe not out of the tank, but at least off the fish.... Please help! <This situation sounds to me like what they call "A one legged man in a butt kicking contest." You've got too many things going on here that you are the point of doing more harm than good. It is my considered opinion that there is likely nothing you can do for this one box fish - it is dancing what is known in the hobby as the spiral of death, and if has not yet passed on, it will do so soon. I would even go so far as to suggest that you preempt this fish's suffering and freeze it and move on to solving some other problems. Hyposalinity is useful as a bath/dip but not as ongoing treatment. Saltwater fish actually need the salt - they drink their water and use the salts to regulate things inside their bodies. Without enough salt, things go wrong from the inside out and you find yourself where you are now. Preventing ich is as much about managing stress as it is killing parasites and if you only work on one side of this problem, then you're likely to never solve the problem. Consider doing this - put the remaining boxfish in with the firefish in quarantine. Try to get the salinity up to at least 1.018 (and very slowly - not all in one day). Then, let your main tank go fallow - no fish - for at least one month, six weeks would be better. Likewise, slowly bring the salinity back to a normal range in the main tank (1.023-ish).> Thank You! Neil <I suggest you read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm Cheers, J -- >

Flame Angel with Ich 6/17/06 Hi.. <Hi> Is it possible for a flame angel to develop itch due to being released into a new environment? <Only if the Ich parasite is present.>  I have a flame angel who developed itch when I first released him into the display tank, so I put him into a QT tank with daily freshwater baths, and when I placed him back into the display tank he developed itch again. <FW baths are only marginally effective with Ich.><<And the system is still infested... RMF>> What's the best course of action? I'm hesitant to take him out again because that would stress the copperband and I refuse to buy a cleaner wrasse due to the information on your site and cleaner shrimps are very expensive here in Australia. Thanks for your help. A <Remove all fish to QT, treat with copper or other proven remedies.  Allow tank to run fallow (fishless) for 6 to 8 weeks.  More details can be found here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .> <Chris>

- Help with Ick on a Goldrim Achilles Tang -    6/14/06 I am interested in a Goldrim achilles hybrid at the local LFS but he has bad ich. They don't seem to know very much. I suggested vitamin C and algae to feed and Kick Ick but they don't know about any of it. <I don't know that the Kick Ich is a good idea.> Would I be better off to buy it and treat it myself or let them teat it. <Your choice - one of the two ways will cost you nothing.> I guess I should ask if the fish would be better off. <Too late for that...> I think I know more than them but do you have any tips as to aid in its survival. <You can try but when these tangs get sick for real, they rarely make a comeback. You'd have to have a large quarantine system with excellent water quality to even begin to turn this fish around. Odds are not in your favor.> Thanks, James G. PS. They are only asking 40 dollars so I wouldn't be out too much... <Or... you could save your $40 for the next one that comes in healthy. Cheers, J -- >

Your response to White spot treatment in my marine aquarium, ScottF,    6/14/06 Dear, dear Bob and the team, I thank you SO much for your response to my somewhat frantic question about Methylene blue treatment of my already stressed-out marine fish/system after my tank cracked. <Welcome> The "links" you suggested I read were brilliant and reinforcing for me.  I found I was basically doing and experiencing EXACTLY what would "be expected" under the circumstances... my tank IS at a "plateau" of infestation thanks to the UV Sterilizer, and, I too, administered garlic with SOME measure of improvement in the my fish. <Well-stated> It is clear though, that I MUST grab another tank for quarantine, and leave the main system "fallow" as suggested, to really wipe the Crypto. out as far as is humanly possible. <This is my opinion as well> The article "Marine Itch: Fighting the war on two fronts" was brilliant and LOGICAL.... <Will share with the author, ScottF> I just have to have ANOTHER tank to do it, but, as this IS the case for my tropicals and cichlids, so it SHALL be the case for my marine "babies" too.  As for attending to what made my original tank crack... "we dunno!"  We were watching a video of Australia's Great Barrier Reef when we heard a loud Crack (in front of us).  Nothing in the whole room had moved or fallen and we puzzled over it thinking "something inside the TV" had made the noise? <Eeh...> Two minutes went by and my son "screamed" that the tank was cracked!  The curved front "Jinlong" brand tank had cracked right at the bottom of a front curve (in the actual curve) and water was starting to trickle out! <Mmm... it might be the tank... a defect in the glass or construction... the stand is level and planar... with the weight of the system on it?> There was no rock fall or shrimp to blame, but battle stations.... siphon water into tubs, get "everybody" out... By the time we did this, the crack had (due to water pressure in the tank) "crept" up across the face of the tank, finally measuring 10 inches long!  So the mystery as to WHY the tank cracked has not been solved... probably crappy brand or luck, but at least it happened when we were home and "right there", sad as it turned out to be. <Good attitude> In summary (for a real yapper) I will take the "two front" approach "to the letter", luckily having spare heaters and lights (just need a tank and getting it today!) and I will ALWAYS use your site and continue to tell EVERYONE about it/you and your team. A final question; I understand you are all "volunteers" but is there a "membership fee" or such...I would HAPPILY pay it. Again THANK YOU SO MUCH for your response and advice. Janie. <Thank you for your kind words. We have no "membership" or fees, but do have an Amazon.com "begging bowl" in places. Bob Fenner> Marine Ich   6/12/06 WetWebGuys (and a lady), <More than one...> I have a royal gamma in an established tank, which has had some prior cases of ich in the distant (3 or 4 months) past, who appears to have developed ich. <Never was cured... or the system...> He has the white spots and when he is out is constantly rubbing against rocks or the substrate.  I have noticed the spots on him for some time now, probably weeks, but he often has sand on him from his favorite hiding spot and thought nothing of it. Back at that time I was more concerned about a firefish who had also been frequently rubbing against things but had no other outward signs of an infection.  I believe that my tank is probably one of those on the verge of infection, i.e. possessing the parasites but that my fish have been in good enough health to keep it at bay. <I agree> The firefish is fine now but the gamma as I said appears to be in trouble. I have had bad luck in the past when I remove already ill fish to quarantine; usually they deteriorate substantially within days.  Should I remove the Gramma and treat him with antibiotics <Not this/these> or try and solve whatever condition in the tank which is causing him to suddenly become susceptible to the parasites? Derek <... all fish hosts need to be removed, treated elsewhere... Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files above... till you understand what you're about here. Bob Fenner> Yes, another ICH question!   6/11/06 Most of my question will probably sound like bazillions of others on the subject of marine ICH (I believe I have read them all) but I can't find an 'exact answer' to what I want to know. I have a 3 month old 20 gallon nano-reef with 17 seemingly thriving soft and LPS corals. <... that each likely get too large for this volume of water> Like the many people writing you questions, I added four fish without quarantine'¦ even though I have 2 empty 10 gallon tanks! I rationalized that chance was on my side with only 4 fish, and I had a terrible time quarantining my African cichlids which would show all kinds of weird non-specific symptoms which I was never able to effectively eliminate, until I gave up and put them in my 70 gallon display only to have a perfectly healthy tank for more than 1.5 years now. <Good point. Quarantining does have its real as well as potential downsides> Anyways, back to my 20 gallon, my paired watchman gobies and orchid Dottyback have been completely normal, while my neon goby has been constantly flashing and jerking for the whole week I have had him. Sometimes I think I see tiny specks on him only to see them gone an hour later, thus concluding its just dust or air bubbles (Just set up a Remora). I dread the thought of dismantling my tank as the neon goby and orchid Dottyback will hide in the rock (I had to go to the LFS twice for the Dottyback because he was un-catchable the first time, hiding in the live-rock). I have checked out my tank parameters and they are all normal. These are my questions 1) with the neon goby not having definite spots, how long do I watch him before just biting the bullet and catching him for treatment? <I might just wait here period. Could be "more/mostly environmental" in cause (whatever "it" is)... and the fish die from exposure (trouble with allelopathy twixt the cnidarians)... or succumb to a protozoan infestation (the tank itself now is infested)> Do I just watch him indefinitely until I know for sure what the problem is? <This is what I would do, yes> Are his symptoms sufficient to assume he does have parasites? <Nope... not w/o microscopic examination>                                     2) Since ICH can exist on a fish sub-clinically without any outward signs, is it not possible to mistakenly introduce an infested fish into the display tank despite a prolonged quarantine, if the fish only had a sub-clinical infestation. Therefore even proper quarantine can fail, no? <Is possible... though chances diminish with effort/time in quarantine, possible pre-treatment> Thanks very much, Dave PS I will definitely quarantine in the future, I guess it isn't fool-proof but it certainly must improve the odds, and not to mention peace of mind! <We're in agreement Dave... Do be looking for larger systems... Bob Fenner> Re: Yes, another ICH question!  6/12/06 Thx for your reply Mr. Fenner. If you don't mind I would like some clarification on something you said (I think it was you!?) in one of the ICH threads on line...the quote is... "Well, I think entrenched ich problems are bunk! To be avoided or severely selected against. Try the cleaners and keep your water quality optimized and sooner but definitely later the ich problem will lose its virulence. I am..." It may be difficult without the full context of the preceding statement, but it seems to me you are saying that if the parasite exists in a tank for extended periods without causing "full blown" infestation due to the fish's resistance, excellent conditions, etc, that the parasite will lose virulence over time. Do I understand correctly? <Yes... well re-stated, clarified> Can you ever consider such a tank parasite free if no sign of infestation happens for several months? <No... not parasite-free... perhaps "infestation-free"... sub-clinical expression... but the parasite is still present...> Thanks very much once again. Dave <Thank you, Bob Fenner> Ich and clams 6/10/06 I was wondering if tridacnid clams could get Ich? <No> I recently got a fire fish and at the time of purchase seemed fine and within a few hours it was noticeable. <QTing is important for this very reason.> Now it has spread to some of my other fish in my tank and the clam seems to have a few white spots also. <Not Ich.> I am work on getting my fish out of my reef and into a quarantine tank for treatment, and was wondering if I should remove the clam also. <The clam can/should stay in the main tank, it is not susceptible to Ich.  Hopefully in the future you will QT new fish to avoid situations like this.> Thanks, Kelly W. <Anytime> <Chris>

Ich treatment 6/7/06 Hi Guys <Hi> Thanks for such a great website. <Bob's good work.> <<Oh, no Chris... all ours. RMF>> I am trying to figure out if I need to take out my crabs/shrimps from the main tank. I plan to remove all the fish and treat with Myxazin and Hyposalinity in a separate tank for 4 weeks. <Myxazin is an antibiotic, not effective against Cryptocaryon irritans.> At the same time I want to raise my main tank temperature to the mid 80's and give the tank 4 weeks for all ich to die. <6-8 weeks would be better.> Question is do I put the inverts in the separate tank with the Myxazin or can I leave them in the main tank? <Leave them> Also, should I put some live rock into the separate tank for bio filtration and should I use a skimmer at all? <The skimmer would be beneficial, but the rock will absorb the medication, and die-off will pollute the tank.> I am worried that the skimmer will negate the medication, but without it the ammonia levels will go up. Thanks for all your help and such an informative website. <<Mmm, and the skimmer will too likely remove medication too quickly... RMF>> Regards Duane Consulting Systems Engineer <Anytime> <Chris>

More Ich treatment 6/7/06 I contacted you guys early, and you gave me some good advice. <We try> I just had a quick question for you. I had an ich problem and I have taken all of my fish out of the tank and put them in a 10 gallon hospital tank. <Ok> I am treating them with medicine and they are looking good. <Good> I was wondering what to do with my main aquarium. Right now I have my brittle star, my sand sifting star, and my cleaner shrimp. Should I remove them too and let the tank sit empty or can I just leave them in there and wait 4 weeks. <Leave them, and a 6 to 8 week period would be better.> I also have 22 lbs of live rock, and was wondering if I should remove it. The local pet store told me that sometimes Ich can live on the live rock. <Sort of.  In certain stages it will attach to substrate, rocks, etc.> If you could help it would be very helpful. <This may be helpful, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm > <Chris>

Ich Again!  6/3/06 Hello, <Hi there> I have a 125 gallon reef. Well here we go again. I let my tank go fishless after my first losing battle with ich for 8 weeks. I recently introduced 1 Flame Angel, 1 small Naso Tang, 2 Percula Clowns and 1 Kole Tang about 3 weeks ago. The Kole started showing some white spots after about 2 weeks and then soon perished. The Flame soon after along with 1 clown. The Naso seems Ok for now, but I know it is only a matter of time before he gets it as well. The ich is progressing rapidly. I do have a 10 gallon tank and Cupramine but by the time a notice the spots it already seems to be to late. I have never had much luck treating Tangs with copper in a hospital tank. I don't get it I can keep all my corals, stars, shrimp alive but not fish. It is so very discouraging. <I am sure it is. If all the fish you have lost are coming from one source perhaps you should look into purchasing your fish else where.>   I tested my water I have no detectable levels of nitrite, nitrates are a bit over 10ppm. pH about 8.5. I recently added a chiller set to kick on at about 81 degrees and shut off at 80. I have 1 torch coral, 1 hammer coral, 2 leathers, all doing fine. I am not sure what my next course of action should be. I think the remaining fish will perish soon. They seem to be weakened a bit and I am not sure I should chase the around with a net and place them in the 10 gallon. <Well they are still alive. If you don't intervene in some way they are certainly doomed to die. It seems reasonable to me to at least try to treat them.> I am ready to go fallow once again. I never quarantined the new batch of fish before I introduced them this time. I know a fatal mistake. <Indeed> I have never had such a problem before. < It sounds like you have had a similar problem in the past, perhaps not the magnitude of this problem, but requiring running the tank fallow for a period .> My UV light is on 24/7 it is a 36 watt coral life with a flow rate of 100 gph with is supposed to be optimum for crypto. Why the Ich then??? <Well, UV is not a 100% guarantee against ich. The new fish were most likely a host to the parasite and the stress of capture, transfer a few to several times prior to their final destination in your tank, enough to bring it out. This is why you hear so much about quarantining new fish. It really does make life simpler. If the fish show symptoms in quarantine then your display tank and fish are not affected, you do not have to chase the fish down to transfer them to a quarantine/hospital tank where they can be more easily treated and observed. > Please help...I think it is all because I did not quarantine them for 2 weeks like I should of. <Most likely> Any input would be greatly appreciated <I would recommend you have a look at the following articles Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion of this Parasite and the Treatment Options Available, Part I & II by Pro, Steven here http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-10/sp/feature/index.php as well as Quarantining and related FAQs start here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm and Marine Disease: The Three Sets of Factors that Determine Health/Disease & FAQs here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm Thank you,  John <Your most welcome, Leslie>

Questions for combating Marine ICH   6/3/06 Hello, thanks again for the terrific site and info! I spend probably way too much time reading through the archives! <Me too.> Ok, Here's what I have going on. We have a 120g reef tank, 2" drain going into a 30 gal sump. Via Aqua 3600 for a return pump and a MAG12 on a closed loop. I have a Falco Hawkfish, 2 blue damsels, one Canary Fang Blenny, and a 4-5" Yellow Tang. Tanks has been up for a couple months (sand bed seeded from my 5 yr old 55 gal reef, as well as a lot of my live rock and corals from the 55). Ammonia, nitrates, nitrites all 0, PH is at 8.4 salinity 1.024. I've been battling temp swings (5.5 degrees) raising from lights and both pumps being submerged in sump. After much reading I decided to turn up the heater so it wouldn't drop so low. <Good idea> Anyway, all that to say, I noticed some white spots on my tang's pectoral fins the other evening. So, out came the QT/hospital tank (20 gal long), and the nets, and my wife reluctantly out of bed at 11:15PM  (after I spent about an hour or so on your site). <Sleeping on the couch now?> After 45 minutes, he's out of the reef and into the hospital (no FW dip... Did not have any Methylene blue, now I do though) Went to LFS next day and bought some Coppersafe. After more reading, and observing the other fish in the tank (no spots, but some of them scratching on things), I've decided I need to pull the others out, treat them as well, and let the tank go fallow for a while. (Is 2 months enough time?) <Yep> OK, Here's my questions,   1. Trapping the Hawkfish and damsels should be fairly easy with a food baited trap. How about the Canary Fang Blenny? I have not gotten it to eat the food I feed them ( frozen brine/mysis shrimp) but he picks at the live rock all the time. I'm assuming I'll just need to tear it all apart. <Probably unfortunately.> 2. Comes from Q1 above, what to feed the blenny when in the QT tank? I also have some Formula Two (by Ocean Nutrition) but I've not seen him eat any of that either. <Try Cyclop-Eeze, if that fails you may need to purchase pod cultures to keep they little guy going for a while.> 3. My tang seems stressed in the QT tank, I tried putting in a piece of 4" PVC drain pipe for him but it floats! <Weird> I also tried a couple 4" fittings I had left over from a drain project (STY not PVC) they are too light, and kind of float around.. Can I use an ABS fitting? Home Depot and Lowes don't have any 4" PVC fittings, but the black ABS are easy to find. <I've heard rumors the black ABS isn't good, but no factual data to back that up.  That said I would probably try to find some large inert aquarium decorations from the LFS for cover, just to be safe.> How long should I leave the tang ( all of them for that matter) in the QT tank? (it's only 20 gallons, will be a bit crowded.  I can put them in my 55 after treatment for a month or so if needed while my 120 lays fallow. <I wouldn't put them in the 55 unless of last resort.  Maybe a cheap food grade Rubbermaid container for a temporary home?  My fish lived in one for a couple of weeks while I moved and all came out ok.  Plus afterwards it makes a nice storage unit.  Just get a cheap sponge filter, heater, and a couple of powerheads for good circulation.> Thanks again, Mike <Anytime> <Chris>

Ich and Tangs Part II 6/5/06 One more question on treating my Yellow Tang, in re-reading over info on your site, I found the following response to treating a tang with copper. "<However, a standard aquarium copper remedy, used in accordance with manufacturer's instructions, is very effective. Avoid long-term use of copper with tangs, as it could damage their digestive fauna>" Is 4 weeks too long? <Most likely ok.>  I have one more fish to catch ( my Falco Hawkfish) then all fish will be out of my reef and it can go fallow for 2 months. The tang has been in the QT with CopperSafe for almost a week now. If I put the Hawkfish in there tonight, and wait 3 weeks, the Tang will have been in copper for 4 weeks. Is this too long? <Probably fine, but do watch carefully.> Should I remove him and put him elsewhere in another week or will 4 weeks be Ok? <Will probably be fine, but if possible I would treat separately.  Probably an overly cautious approach, but once the Hawkfish is added you need to treat fully again since Ich will be reintroduced to the QT and if the tang begins to suffer options will be limited.> On a side note, my canary fang blenny is eating much more aggressively in the QT tank... (no LR to pick at, he got hungry and decided he likes Mysid shrimp!) <Excellent, a small positive to the QTing process.  Something to help carry you through the seemingly endless weeks before you can start restocking the tank.> Thanks again, Mike <Chris>

White Spot Disease  5/31/06 Hi WWM Crew <Hi> My question today is about white spot disease and I know you probably going to say that this subject has been covered many times before. The problem I have, is that I cannot seem to find what the initial carrier of the disease is. <Really irrelevant after the infection has been passed to other fish.> I know the life cycle by heart already, but still cannot understand where the 1st white spot originates from. Let me give an example: The fish that I have in my tank has not got white spot. Four days ago I bought 2 Regal Tangs (Yellow Tail) from a shop that had them for about 3 weeks. These fish were Healthy and I watch them ate in the shopkeepers tank. <Not healthy, infected with Ich, just not visible to the eye.> Yesterday morning I discovered that they both had white spots, which got more severe by this morning. My other fish are fine and I also went to the shop and his remaining Regals were fine as Well! Now the question again, where did they get the white spot from? Does all fish carry that parasites like we humans do with cancer and only start getting active when certain (bad) conditions are met? Thanks very much Regards Christo S. Cape Town SA <Most likely the tangs were carrying the Ich, although it was possible that it existed in your tank in below epidemic levels before their addition.  Tangs are exceedingly susceptible to Ich, and we often hear of otherwise healthy looking tangs coming down with it after being taken home.  But all this could have been avoided by QTing the tangs, now all of your fish are at least "carriers" of the Ich.  Not all fish have Ich, in fact in the wild Ich/Cryptocaryoniasis is fairly rare, but in the small tanks we have it tends to multiply rapidly.  Hopefully you will see this as a reason to start QTing your fish and protecting your current inhabitants.> <Chris>

Ich Problems 5/29/06 I am having a ick problem. Some of my fish our starting to scratch themselves and are starting to get little white spots on them. I quarantined them for 4 weeks. I have a 55 gallon aquarium with 22lbs of live rock. I have a  tomato clown, jeweled damsel, 3 stripped damsel, a brittle starfish, a sand sifting starfish, a new cleaner shrimp  (Skunk), and a yellow tailed damsel. I tested everything and it all seems to be perfect. <Numbers please> So what could be stressing them out. My temperature stays constant and I know temperature fluctuations is one of the main ways ick gets started. If you can offer me any advise or help I would be grateful. <Ich does not necessarily need a stress factor to become problematic.  At times the parasite population booms and an epidemic can occur.  At this time I would put all fish back in your QT and treat with copper while allowing the main tank to run fallow for 4 to 6 weeks.> <Chris>

Spiny Box Puffer with Ich - 5/17/2006 What is the best way to treat a Spiny Box Puffer that has ich?  It is currently in a quarantine tank. <<Read here: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9. >> Thanks! <<Glad to help. Lisa.>> Re: Spiny Box Puffer with Ich - 5/28/2006 I started the treatment described in the link you gave me for Hyposalinity last week.  For the first few days the ich started to clear up nicely, but over the last two days it has gotten progressively worse.  It is now much worse than it was before I started the Hyposalinity treatment. <<What SG is the puffer in now?>> The Spiny Box Puffer will no longer accept food.  Is there something else I can do? <<He is very, very stressed.  It sounds to me like something is off in your water parameters.  Are you keeping a close eye on water quality?  Please search WWM re hyposalinity.>> Thanks! <<Glad to help. Lisa.>> Re-infestation of Marine Ich    5/24/06 Hello crew, <Laurie> Your website has been invaluable to me, being a new marine aquarist.  I wish I had discovered it before experiencing a 100% fish loss due to Marine Ich about two months ago.  Shortly after the outbreak, all fish were removed from the display tank (110 gallon - fish, live rock and sand, and inverts with the goal of eventually adding corals once lighting and filtration is upgraded).  Unfortunately, I learned that we removed them much too late and they were inadequately treated (no fresh water / methylene blue dip), hence the loss.  The display tank was left fish-free for only six weeks.  I am now reading that three to four months would have been safer. <Mmm, yes... though six weeks will "do it" for most circumstances>   I'm afraid this is proving true, as two new fish that were added last week are now showing signs of Ich. <Rats! You did quarantine these?> We have a small 10 gallon QT set up, but that won't be large enough to house all of our fish (~55 inches total - 16 fish, <!> all peaceful / community).  I think I can quickly set up our empty 29 gallon using some of the biological filter media from the 10 gallon QT.  (That is currently housing a blue-velvet damsel to keep the system cycling.  He is moved to a refugium that hangs in the display tank when we use the 10 gallon QT for quarantining.) My concern is that I have a large (5") algae blenny and a small diamond watchman goby that I'm afraid will not survive in either QT (neither one has / will have any algae growth, and of course, there will not be any sand substrate).  We lost our original blenny during the first Ich quarantine - but I think due to starvation rather than Ich. <Very common>   The goby eats when I feed, but he's very busy sand-sifting all day long. I'm not sure that he'll adjust to the QT with a glass bottom. <If in good health to start with...> If I take a chance and leave blenny and goby in the display tank with the invertebrates, and they survive for the three to four month time period without showing symptoms, can I assume that the Ich parasites are gone? <Uh, no... Definitely not. All fish can act as "space" or reservoir hosts... all need to be removed> I do have several cleaner shrimps (one skunk, three peppermints, one scarlet).  The skunk cleans the blenny often, but the goby is afraid of it. If they do survive, and the rest of my gang survives living in the 29 gallon for three to four months, will it ever be safe to add them back to the display tank? <... All need to be removed, treated> Your expertise and advice is much appreciated. With sincere thanks, Laurie Ostrander <Do take a re-read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the many files linked above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich, Copper(Safe) use   6/1/06 Hi Bob and Crew, <Laurie> Help!  I need your advice again! It's been a week since our first correspondence and here's what's been done and is going on: *  All fish caught, dipped and moved to 29 gallon hospital tank on May 24 (we were up until 1 a.m.!) *  Scott's Fairy Wrasse didn't do too well, but survived (he had spots before dipping).  He seems to have recovered and is now eating and breathing very well.  He had a few spots left; those are now gone, so the parasite is now in its second stage? <Possibly... you did treat this tank? With?> *  Bristletooth Tomini Tang died the next afternoon (he had spots before dipping and was breathing with difficulty) *  Goby jumped out of the tank three times; I was there to rescue him the first two times, but not the last time :^(  He died on May 29. *  I'm using CopperSafe.  It states that copper test should show 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.  I've found that I need to add more than the dosage documented in the instructions to get up to this level.  I'm using SeaChem test kit.   <Yes and good> *  Water is disgustingly cloudy.  I did 1/3 water change two nights ago, with no improvement (and added the appropriate amount of copper and tested to be sure).   (Tank is running with an AquaClear 70 (sans carbon) and two powerheads - water should be moving at around 700 gph.) *  Blenny is doing OK.  Thankfully, he is eating Seaweed Selects. *  Remaining fish are doing well (Banggai and Pajama Cardinalfish and Yellow Candy Hogfish) <And... you are testing for ammonia, nitrite?> Here's where I need some advice.  CopperSafe states to treat for 5 - 30 days.  Article says start reducing copper after 2 weeks.  I don't really understand the article, as I read that parasites take 5 - 28 days before swimming to find a host.  As the copper levels are reduced, will it still be an effective parasite killer? <Mmm, no... needs to be kept at a therapeutic dosage/concentration for the duration of treatment> I thought not, which is why it's important to keep the correct level of copper?? <Yes> So, if these were your fish, would you treat full-strength for 30 days, or start reducing after 2 weeks? <Keep at full-strength> If reducing, would you reduce via water changes only, or by adding carbon back to the filter? <Likely just time going by and water changes...> Thank you.  I really appreciate your help. Regards, Laurie O. <Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich   5/25/06 Thank you Bob. <Welcome> This is an interesting line in the article you highlighted for me: "Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment." <One point of view> This sentence is both discouraging and hopeful. With all the live rock (100 lbs.) and live sand (160 lbs.) in the system, I'm afraid that the parasites will be there forever. <Possibly> However, I've already started the process of upgrading my filtration system, so I am hopeful that once I get this current set of fish treated and cured, that the environment in my display tank will be as close to ideal as it can get. Again, thank you. Regards, Laurie Ostrander <Again, welcome. BobF>     Ich Advise and advice ... poor information and ignorance   5/21/06 Currently have Ich in my 55 Gallon Reef Tank.  I have installed a UV Sterilizer <Won't cure> and am about a week into "Kick-Ich" treatments. <Worthless>   I have also removed the charcoal and turned off the skimmer.  Is there anything you might suggest further??   <...> Also, have you ever heard of the SANO Remedy?  I have read some testimonials from users, and they have all been good. Thanks <Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Scroll down to Parasitic Systems/Reefs, Cryptocaryon, Phony Remedies... and read. W/o useful, accurate knowledge and action... soon... your fishes will be dead and you out of the hobby. Bob Fenner>   Marine Ich problem... cycling a quarantine...   5/21/06 Hi WWM crew, <Jeff> This morning I woke to discover the horror: my yellow longnose butterfly had tiny, white dots all over its body and fins! and you know what that means.   Stupid me, I knew I should have had a QT tank on hand but I didn't. <Woulda, coulda, shoulda...>   I'm going to try to cure him by employing the method described in " http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm", but my problem now is exactly my problem in the first place: I don't have another cycled, well-established tank to isolate them and cure them in.  I do, however, have a spare tank in the garage than I can set up ASAP, but the problem is I'm afraid it would have to cycle first before I can effectively use it as a QT tank, which would take a while--but time is running out for my butterfly!  Do you think taking some of the live rock in my (display) tank and putting them in my makeshift QT tank would cycle the tank fast enough for my infected fishes? <... Keep reading... perhaps starting here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quarsysfaqs.htm or... maybe using the Google search tool on WWM... Bob Fenner>

Spiny Box Puffer with Ich - 5/17/2006 What is the best way to treat a Spiny Box Puffer that has ich?  It is currently in a quarantine tank. <<Read here: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9. >> Thanks! <<Glad to help. Lisa.>> Ichs-travaganza! No more SW livestock gifts please  5/16/06 Hello all, I have a 10gal quarantine tank and a 29gal display tank. I am upgrading to a 90gal this week (yeah) but need some advise. I have a small yellow tang, 2 clown and a royal Gramma. My brother-in-law thought he was being sweet and bought me a teeny tiny blue hippo and a spiny box puffer. He put them in my display tank to surprise me (aaaarrrrrrgggggggg.) When I got home I saw they had ich and looked pretty sick. I want to make the 29gal my new quarantine tank and start up the 90 gal. I need to know if I can take some of my live rock from the 29gal and put in the 90gal or will it contaminate the new tank. I am going to medicate the 29gal tank but want to transfer some of the rock first, if I can. I am raising the temp and lowering the salinity in the 29gal now but no meds yet. I want to let the 29gal tank run with meds for a month or so before I even think about moving them to the new tank. So overall, can I transfer some of the live rock from the sick tank with no meds to the new tank since it will be running for 4-6 weeks before adding fish. I am so upset and cannot lose any fish. Then once  I medicate is there a specific brand of copper you recommend. Please help I have only been enjoying this new hobby since November and am not sure what to do. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you so, so, so much. Confused in Ft Lauderdale, Brandy <<Brandy:  The best treatment for ich is to slowly lower the SG in your QT to 1.009 (as measured with a refractometer), leave it there for 6 weeks, and then slowly raise it to your main tank SG.  Fortunately, for you, ich needs a host fish to survive the 6 week period.  Here's what I would suggest.  Don't use meds on any live rock, the SG 1.009 ich treatment will work just fine without any meds; however, you can't have any live rock or inverts in your QT because the SG 1.009 is too low for them.  Thus, set up the 90 gal first, carefully pull out the rocks (trying not to disturb the old sand bed) and transfer them to the 90.  Then, drain some of the water out of the 29 and fill up the 10.  When the water goes down, it will be easier to catch the fish.  Put some of them into the 10.  Siphon more water into a bucket, add the remaining fish to the bucket.  Once the 29 no longer has fish, decide what to do with the old sand.  No mater what, take all of it out of the 29 and rinse the tank out.  Set up the 29 where you want to use it as a QT for 6 weeks.  At this point, given the number of fish, I think you should consider using both the 10 and the 29 for QT.  6 weeks is a long time for so many fish to be together.  While you need a heater, basic filtration, and water movement for fish, you won't need any lighting.  What ever you decide, transfer the old tank water and fish into the QT(s).  After that, you can calmly work on setting up your 90 and slowly bring the SG down to 1.009 in your QT(s) over the course of several days.  I usually don't like to move the SG more than .002 per day up or down (as measured with a refractometer).  During the time the fish are out of your 90, you will be amazed at all the life that will be established and thrive without them.  After the 6 weeks, no ich will have survived in your 90.  You then slowly raise the QT(s) from SG 1.009 to where your main tank is.  After that, you can introduce your fish to the main tank.  While the whole process takes several weeks, you will beat ich for good.  In the future, never introduce a fish without going through the 6 week QT. It's the way I do it and I have never had ich in the main tank (though I have had it seen it many times at the start of the QT process). Best of luck, Roy>> Huge ICH problem - control by Ozone? Mmm, nope  - 05/13/2006 Hi guys, <And some XX's...> This is the first time I have emailed you guys, as have spent ages reading the great amount of information on your site. What's stopped me? <Don't know> Well, I realize that you're busy, but this I couldn't keep to myself - it's distressing my fish (and killing them) and upsetting me, even the cat seems saddened by our misfortune. <Yes> I have a 240 litre reef with 40kg of live rock, MCE600, rowfos fluidizer, Eheim wet and dry, a UV filter and will soon be adding Ozone, monitored to the MCE600. The stock in the tank is as follows: 6 common clowns. 1 baby tang and a larger one. 4 shrimp (cleaner). Bristle star fish (I think that's what it's called!) Red Star fish. Snails and hermits. Recently I added a powder blue <Tang? This system is too small for an Acanthurus leucosternon> and didn't notice till I got back from a business trip, that it had Ich. <Yikes... no quarantine?> By the time I could get some treatment the next day it had died. Ich has now spread throughout the tank and we've lost 3 clowns already. I have tried one of the shelf treatment ' ESHA Oodinex  ' but the Ich is still there, but not as prevalent. <... your system is infested> I realize that my UV setup is working as well as it could and will soon have more flow running from the Eheim back to the tank, as previously it was working on a separate pump that works the Rowa-phos fluidizer. Will adding Ozone to the skimmer help in stopping Ich? <Nope> I appreciate your help. Many thanks in advance. Stu <Uhh... not so fast... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and the linked files above... formulate a plan... and act... quickly... to eliminate this parasite from your system. Bob Fenner> Ich breakout, crowded marine systems, Magical Magnet Cure-alls!  - 05/13/2006 Hey Guys, <What about the women here? Am wondering if "guys" covers all genders nowadays.> I have recently introduced a new Tusk to my aquarium. I have a 120 FO with skeletal corals. I have a huge wet/dry and a 25 UV going. After introducing the Tusk my Blue Face Angel was giving him problems. <This tank is too small for a Euxiphipops...> Not surprisingly the Tusk broke out with ich. He has obviously been scratching because he cut up the top of his tail. I have removed the Blue Face Angel and put him in another aquarium, however my Tusk, Picasso, Golden Arothron, and Volitans lion have ich now. None of these guys have ever had ich. <But your system did... you/they did actually have a sub-symptomatic crypt infestation> I don't want to treat with copper. I just recently ordered a product called ECO-Aqualizer that is supposed to help with the immunity of fish, and almost cure anything. <Heeee! Magnet technology... Hope you've also got a pyramid hat to cogitate furiously with... See WWM re reference to this product, the owners...> Not sure if you've heard of it. However do you have any suggestions? I love my fish and it sucks to see them with ich after they have been doing so well. ~Sam <Uhh... sure... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm and the linked files above... and soon... formulate a real treatment plan, execute against it... Or your fishes will perish. Bob Fenner>

Sick SW Fish/Ich 5/9/06 Hi there, <Hello> I hope you can help. <Will try> I have had my tank set up for over two years now. It is a 65g tank with 20kg of live rock,  20 scarlet hermits, 5  turbo snails, a couple of soft coral frags, yellow tang (tank too small I know) <Yep>, 2 x ocellaris clownfish, 2 x black-tailed humbugs (breeding pair) <Will turn quite nasty as they mature>, royal Gramma and a flame angelfish. Nearly all the fish I have, at one point, began to flick and rub against the rocks as if they have ich, but they never show the tell tail white spots. <Ich infestations can occur without the typical white spots> I have lost a royal Gramma to this in the past, and the one I have currently has done it since its arrival over a month ago. It is gradually beginning to damage itself (at one point its eye had swollen up due to rubbing but is better now) but it is still rubbing against the rocks - it looks as though it is the gills which it is rubbing. <Ich's preferred site of infection> I did consider that it could be something in the water, i.e. copper, nitrates etc. but I've been told that this is unlikely. <Still worth running a battery of test, poor water conditions and/or copper can cause this behavior> I discovered that one of my powerheads had gone rusty inside. <Unlikely but possible metal contamination, test for copper> I thought that this rust may have been the cause for this behavior, but since its removal, there has been no improvement. One thing I have noticed is that the tang and angelfish begin this 'scratching' after the introduction of new fish or inverts, but it goes away after a few days. <QTing new fish?> I did add a really small regal tang (what was I thinking) <Not a good candidate for this tank>, and as soon as I put it in the tank, it immediately began rubbing against the rocks. <Possible that it was previously infected with something or a water quality issue> This went on for around a week until, unfortunately, it died. This makes me think it is something to do with the water. <Run ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and copper tests to start> Is this something you have heard of in the past? I really am confused as what it could be - could it be some kind of invisible parasite attacking the fishes gills? <Yes, Ich is normally found in the gills before moving on to less desirable locations on the fish> It looks as though they only begin to show this behavior when stressed. <Stress equals lower immune system responses, makes fish more susceptible to illness> Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks, Luke <Chris>

Re: Parasites... was Sick SW Fish/Ich  5/12/06 Hi Chris, <Hello again> It looks as though it is Ich after all. Two days ago, my Yellow Tang had a few white spots on him. The flame angel is 'shimmering' as though something is irritating him and the Royal Gramma is still rubbing against the rocks. Could it be that the white spots simply don't appear on these particular fish??? <Yep, common occurrence> I have treated the main tank (I know you don't condone this) with Paragon by Waterlife (What are your views on this product?). I have used it in the past and have had good results (and is SUPPOSEDLY safe for inverts). <Claims to release some sort of special oxygen, largely ineffective in my opinion.> I am also soaking all food with Kent's Garlic Extreme. The Yellow Tang no longer has the spots and the other fish appear to be improving. Hopefully they will be gone for good and is not just the cycling of the parasites. <More likely just the Ich lifecycle, but we'll hope.> I just wish I knew how important quarantining livestock before I set up the tank. From this day forward, I swear to quarantine religiously!!! <Need to start now with the current inhabitants, otherwise all new fish will be infected when added, making the QT period a waste.> I am also planning on purchasing a neon goby, and 3 cleaner shrimp in the not too distant future as biological 'cleaners'. <Nice fish and shrimp which I'm sure you will enjoy, but generally not very helpful with Ich, mostly feed on Isopods in the wild.> P.S- I am currently making arrangements to donate the yellow tang to the local public aquarium and to replace it with something a little less demanding for space, (I'm thinking a long-nosed butterfly fish - your thoughts??) although he will be sadly missed! <Better fish than the tang, although probably still a little big for a 65.> Thanks again, Luke

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