A failed crypt battle  6/18/09 
Hey crew,
I just wanted to ask if anyone had ever battled a case of crypt that was un-curable. I introduced crypt into my display via live rock (the only thing I didn't think to quarantine!) and ended up wiping out my entire system. Here is a brief description of my ordeal:
Once I noticed the parasite, I moved the fish from my 260 gallon system (1 baby map puffer, 1 adult pair of O. meleagris, one baby O. cubicus, a Commerson's frogfish, an adult emperor angel) into a 40 gallon, bare bottom acrylic hospital tank filtered by a wet/dry, skimmer, and U/V sterilizer rated for a 250 gallon system. The skimmer and U/V sterilizer were used intermittently, depending on which medication was being attempted.
My efforts to cure the crypt were:
1) Daily 75% water changes, after scraping the bottom of the tank to remove any cysts, with careful vacuuming of the bare floor, corners, and seams
2) 11 days of dosing Quinine sulfate at recommended dosage, followed by a week of double dosing
3) Hyposalinity (1.010 SG) for two weeks
4) Treatment with Praziquantel, Acriflavine, and metronidazole
5) As the fish worsened, and after all of my boxfish were dead, a last ditch effort with malachite and formalin at half the recommended dose
6) Regular freshwater dips/baths of 15-20 minutes every other day, with Methylene blue added (I started the dips after the first two weeks of quinine failed to have an effect)
In addition, regular dosages of Methylene blue and Maracyn (erythromycin) were added to reduce secondary infection (which became apparent, especially on the boxfish and puffer) as well as to help with blood O2 sat. Liquid vitamins (especially B vitamins) were dosed regularly, as was Selcon. The fish ate fine until the last 48 hours of their lives. I aerated the tank heavily with two air pumps. The temperature was elevated to 84, but lowered to ~75 as the fish worsened to help increase oxygen content in the water and reduce metabolic rate.
I ended up losing every single fish listed above. The only fish that was introduced to this strain and survived was my zebra moray. I have a yellow tank and a sharp-nosed puffer that are still alive, and in surprisingly good condition, but I cannot cure this and I doubt I'll be able to do anything but euthanize them in an effort to not contaminate anything else. The tang actually has barely showed symptoms this entire time!
I have obviously encountered crypt often, and cured it successfully (usually with Quinine) but this is just beyond me. I don't even understand how there were enough parasites to continue reproducing after daily scrapings/cleanings and 75%+ water changes. I have never worked this hard to save my fish, nor failed so completely. My efforts literally made no impact whatsoever, and the outbreak worsened like clockwork, every 48 or so hours.
My map puffer was eating and seemed unaffected until it became apparent that his gills were too damaged/parasite laden to oxygenate his blood. After staying up about 36 hours dosing hydrogen peroxide, valerian root (anti-stress) and Methylene blue, he and the emperor angel were the last to go. Even the freshwater dips seemed to have almost no effect - the sloughing that often occurs during a dip barely happened, even on fish that were completely parasite-laden. This strain seems osmotically invulnerable, as well as completely disease resistant!
I am honestly afraid to ever encounter this strain again, and don't even want to buy any more fish for fear of this ordeal recurring. Is there anything else I could have done? I never attempted copper due to the boxfish and pufferfish, but aside from that, I can't think of anything else I could have done. After the vast amount of time/effort/money put into my month long treatment efforts only to fail utterly is very frustrating. I hope someone can shed some light on this for me!
Thanks guys,
Mike

Re: A failed crypt battle
Can't offer any wisdom here, but let me at least say I'm sorry about your travails.
I have to confess that I've never found UV to be the cure-all it's often touted to be; while it may reduce the rate at which parasites spread from fish to fish, I have never found that it totally eliminated them.
 As an aside, one option always worth bearing in mind is that many marine fish have a high tolerance for brackish water, so reducing the salinity of the system for a period of a few weeks may be one way to
completely break the cycle of re-infection. Obviously, live rock, macroalgae and most invertebrates won't survive this. But if you can establish via Fishbase or similar that your marines are brackish- tolerant, and it's worth mentioning at least some invertebrates such as Clibanarius tricolor certainly are brackish-tolerant as well, then this could be worth doing.
 You'd probably be surprised how many reef fish enter brackish water: many Arothron for example, as well as clown triggers, some Canthigaster puffers, some batfish, a few damsels, numerous snappers, even one or two butterflyfish! They wouldn't live in brackish water indefinitely, but for a couple of weeks, if you kept the pH and alkalinity high, I'd fully expect them to cruise through reduced salinity levels without the least fuss.
 Or perhaps Bob would disagree!
<<I do... there is often too much traded off, lost in osmotic et al. damage/stress, most celebratedly renal, kidney damage from too much, too often variations in "salt strength" and variable composition exposure. RMF>>
You already know my story of buying a couple of Arothron hispidus as freshwater fish!
 Cheers, Neale

Re: A failed crypt battle‏
Wow, that is a tough strain. I've never had one anything close to that.  I've been lucky in the two times I've had to fight crypt, it always cleared up with copper. never heard of using hydrogen peroxide or valerian root on fish, what protocol did you follow for dosing? (More for my curiosity than anything else.)The only thing I may have done differently was to take a "damn the torpedos" approach after the quinine failed to work and used copper. Had another thought as well, since some of crypt strains are resistant to copper, and clearly, you have a quinine resistant strain, what about treating with silver nitrate (AgNO3)?
MikeV

Re: A failed crypt battle‏
Sorry to hear this--most people that have had complete Cryptocaryon losses have done so from lack of action; clearly that wasn't your problem. :) Remember that sometimes all you can do is still not enough if the parasites have taken hold and caused irreparable damage. Often the fish are infected long before they show signs, and without the go-to weapons of copper available because you have scaleless fishes, your treatment options are limited. I think you did a very thoughtful job and just had no luck. The only things , in hindsight, I might have done is to increase the FW dips to daily (pending the fishes remaining unstressed), and separated out the fishes that could undergo copper treatment and used that. Otherwise you did everything possible and more. I agree that UV is not really effective--it will only kill things in close proximity that have enough UV contact time, and since Cryptocaryon spends such a proportionally short part of the life cycle free swimming, the bugs you remove this way are few compared to the ones you remove through water changes and dips. What it will do is to kill off some of the bacterial load into he water, which I would argue is not always a good thing. It has been shown that fish, like pretty much every other living thing, have a well established cohort of symbiotic bacteria which perform all sorts of beneficial activities either in the gut, on the skin, etc. Any time you upset the balance between "good" bacteria and "bad", you put the fish at a disadvantage immunologically. Recent research in aquaculture facilities has shown that encouraging the growth of bacteria (adding probiotics usually) increases the immuneocompetence of fish (adults and larvae) and invertebrates. So, until I saw active secondary infections I would have left out the organic dyes and antibiotics. Some people advocate the use of other immunostimulants like beta-glucan; it wouldn't have hurt but in this case I don't think it would have helped either--its mechanism of action is better suited to bacterial infections. Your nutritional strategy was excellent, and the valerian is interesting--do you have any references to its use? Very cool idea.
Christine Williams

Re: A failed crypt battle 6/18/09
Sorry for your troubles Mike. I completely agree with Neale. Marine won't survive this in the long run (if you keep the hospital tank completely barren of anything but fish). The UV sterilizer, even if it kills the ick in the water column, won't kill the other life stages of the invert. Super hyposalinity in an isolated hospital tank is the only "sure-fire" way I know of to really kill this parasite for good...
Good luck,
Sara

Please list this as at least a supplemental treatment with medications, it has value! Allium! 6/19/09
I saw the email I sent below posted with my subject line, but not with my email body other than the quoted text by Sara I used to preface it, just FYI. The remainder did not make it onto the FAQ for one reason or
another.
<Ahh! Thank you for re-sending... your part did not "make it"... but has now. Will append. B>
Thanks!
Thomas Roach
"Re: A failed crypt battle 6/18/09
Sorry for your troubles Mike. I completely agree with Neale. Marine won't survive this in the long run (if you keep the hospital tank completely barren of anything but fish). The UV sterilizer, even if it kills the ick in
the water column, won't kill the other life stages of the invert. Super hyposalinity in an isolated hospital tank is the only "sure-fire" way I know of to really kill this parasite for good...
Good luck,
Sara"
Crew,
I had this same problem! Again, well documented I think somewhere in your FAQ, as Mr. Fenner and I went through treatment options and frustrations for months. I did not see garlic mentioned as an option. This guy can email me for details if he would like as well. The resistant strain of ick is extremely difficult to cure. My short version is I battled it for months, with Quinines and formalin. When had reached the point of despair, I halted all medications, and the only treatment I used WAS FOOD SOAKED IN GARLIC EXTREME, at a higher dose than recommended on the bottle. The Ick was gone in three days. I took mysis shrimp and thawed it in a cup, draining off the thawed water. I would put 8 drops of this concentrated
garlic in it, mix it and allow it to sit for a while. I would add some of the dried pellets (the name escapes me) as well since they would also absorb garlic, and fed the fish. I have never had a re-occurrence of ick since,
even after adding tangs.
What does it mean? Not much, I suppose, as it's not a scientifically proven method. But it undeniably worked for me. There were no other contributing factors. I'm not saying stop your medications. I am telling you DO try this along with your medications. At least recommend it as an additional option. I was really surprised when the ick was gone. but it was gone, and is gone.
Thomas Roach

half-black angel question, Crypt f'  6/17/09 Hi guys and gals, <Lance> Please allow me to preface my question by thanking you for the seemingly unending supply of information on your site. That being said, I am uncertain what to do about my current aquatic situation. I have a 55 gal FOWLR tank with 60 lbs of live sand and 30 lbs of live rock that has been running for a year. In our tank we have a Percula Clown, Yellow-tailed Damsel, Scarlet Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, Emerald Crab, Blue-Legged Hermit Crab, Sand-Sifting Sea Star (regrettably purchased before discovering minimum tank size recs), 1 or 2 Turbo snails, 4 Cerith Snails, and 6ish Nassarius Snails. We use only RO/DI water for our 10-12% weekly changes. We have a Unimax 250 filter with UV sterilization, AquaC Remora Pro HOB skimmer (with the Mag3 pump), and Coralife 50/50 light. At the beginning of June I bought a Pearlscale Pygmy Angel and added him to our QT (10 gal, no LR, LS or other species, running for a year). Conditions 80 deg, 1.024, 0 NH3, 0 nitrites, 10 nitrates, pH 8.0. The fish was at the LFS for 3 or 4 weeks and was doing well and very lively each time I saw him there. He seemed to be a hardy specimen, so I brought him home. We kept him in the QT for two weeks and things were going swimmingly so we decided to transfer him to our display. The conditions in the display were: temp 80, 1.024, 0 NH3, 0 nitrites, 20 nitrates, and pH 8.0. After acclimation for an hour, we added him to the water with the rest of the crew. He swam around the rock, through the caves, and seemed to be doing well. Five hours later I noticed that he had numerous, little, white spots on the dark half of his body. <I see these... along with the red-faced Angel> They seem to have appeared all at once (pics attached). <Likely Cryptocaryon> The other inhabitants of the tank are status quo. My concern is the possibility of this being ich or some other virulent condition which would necessitate transferring him back to the QT for treatment. <Mmm... don't know if I'd go this route... Is likely the Crypt was/is resident...> I was under the impression that ich is more insidious in its arrival. <Not necessarily. Imagine a scenario in which the parasite is living permanently in your main display... A new weakened fish with low acquired  immunity is placed there... will this result in hyperinfection? Who knows?> The fish had been eating well in the QT up until today and had no outward signs of a problem. Could this possibly be a stress response in the fish or do I need to transfer him back to the other tank? <Stress is definitely one component... I would be reading re ich-infested systems: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files above... and shooting for some sort of balance here... via improved water quality, nutrition, probiotics...> Thank you in advance. Regards, Lance <Welcome. Bob Fenner> PS--I can provide more pics if needed. Or I'll at least try...he can be hard to photograph!

Hello Crew... Crypt... reading    6/4/09
Thanks for all your help in the past. We have a 250 gallon system, 2, 125 tanks. A tang in one of the tanks got ich...then the rest followed suite.
We moved them into two hospital tanks...completely lost one tank as the box fish died and killed all. The other tank, everyone is alive. We have a porcupine puffer, stars and stripes puffer, unicorn tang, fox face and a king angel. The king angel and the fox face are not eating. We have tried everything doused with garlic.
<Not efficacious>
We are not sure what else to try
<... read>
and are wondering if we should move these fish back to the display tank. Our LFS says we need to run the tank fallow for 39 days for the ich to die off.
<Reminds me of the even figures "the" gov't, other bureaucracies come up with/fabricate for display to the masses>
Is that accurate or can we put them back in the display tank to see if they are happier and will eat? What do you think?
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures2.htm
I'd look into trying a Quinine or Levamisole here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Hello Crew... a bit more reading   6/4/09
I apologize. I just read the whole big write up on your site about ich and the proper treatment. We need to keep the fish out for at least a month.
It has only been since May 19th, so not enough time to rid the display tanks of ich. I guess what I do need then are other suggestions to get the two fish that are not eating, to eat so we don't lose them. Thanks again.
Jen
<Please see the previous referral. Be chatting, BobF>
Thanks for all your help in the past. We have a 250 gallon system, 2, 125 tanks. A tang in one of the tanks got ich...then the rest followed suite.
We moved them into two hospital tanks...completely lost one tank as the box fish died and killed all. The other tank, everyone is alive. We have a porcupine puffer, stars and stripes puffer, unicorn tang, fox face and a king angel. The king angel and the fox face are not eating. We have tried everything doused with garlic. We are not sure what else to try and are wondering if we should move these fish back to the display tank. Our LFS says we need to run the tank fallow for 39 days for the ich to die off.
Is that accurate or can we put them back in the display tank to see if they are happier and will eat? What do you think? 

Marine Ich 5/30/09
Hi,
I have a 65 gallon reef tank. Just starting out with the tank but also just starting out in the hobby. I took things slow and setup the tank with live rock and let it properly cycle. After about 6 weeks and perfect water parameters I purchased a couple of clowns and a toadstool coral. Everything was great except for an annoying mantis shrimp that came in on my live rock. I've tried a few times to get rid of him but he's more clever then I am. Anyways I'm going to carry on building out the tank and let him be for the time being.
<Cool! Mantis shrimps are among my favourite beasties; I did an undergraduate project on them years ago, and have enjoyed them every since.
Yes, they are very clever! My specimens learned after a single trial that something wasn't edible/killable (e.g., a steel rod) and wouldn't attack such items. It's the "spearer" species that tend to be threatening to fish; small "smasher" species are more likely to target similar sized shrimps, snails and clams. There are mantis traps on the market, and they are definitely fun animals worth isolating and maintaining in their own tank, a refugium, or whatever.>
Most recently I purchased a Frogspawn corral, A colony of Pulsing Xenia's and a Potters Angel. Everything was going great but then I noticed that the Angel was getting whitespots on him. I gather that it's most likely Marine Ich. I really regret not following any quarantine procedures now.  So I purchased another tank and removed the Potters Angel and I'm currently treating him with Formalin-3. He appears to be getting better but has only been on the treatment (1 teaspoon in a 10 gallon tank once a day with a 20% water change every two days) for about a week. He's still got some spots but they are fewer and smaller. He's eating and seems pretty happy in there.
<Good.>
Here's my dilemma... I have not moved my two Percula Clowns over to the quarantine tank because at first I was told just to remove the infected fish and treat that one. But some sources on the internet have said that all fish have to be treated every time one fish displays spots. Is this true?
<You should treat all the fish; even if you can't see the cysts on some fish, they may be carrying microscopic stages, or the cysts could be on the gills, where you wouldn't see them. Admittedly, some fish with thick slime coats don't tend to get Marine Ick all that often (the Anguillidae and Muraenidae, for example). But even if they're asymptomatic, that doesn't mean the juvenile free-living parasite stage can't stick to the mucous for a while, and then hop off onto a more promising host.>
The clowns looks completely healthy, eating well, calm, not breathing hard, perfect skin. I'm half way through the treatment of the angel and I'm
hoping that I won't have to start at square one. Is there any chance that a fish would not catch the Ich and would not allow the life cycle of the Ich to keep going in my main reef tank?
<It's possible, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on it. Marine Ick has a free-living stage that will transport between tanks via nets, buckets, fish, corals or any other wet surface. The only sure-fire way to deal with Marine Ick is to quarantine (and treat) all the fish in the hospital tank, and leave the reef tank fallow for a period of several weeks (at least 4 weeks at tropical temperatures, longer for coldwater systems). The free living stage can't live for more than a few weeks away from a host, so assuming there aren't any fish in the tank, it will eventually die out.>
Thanks very much for your expert advice!
Martin
<Cheers, Neale.>

Is treatment for crypt necessary? 5-22-09
Somehow I got ich in my reef tank again after being ich free for over a year. I have read pages about treatment/fallow display tank and been there done that. But what is your opinion about just letting it "run its course" and just do nothing? Right now I have a 180-gallon tank with 2-tangs and 2-clowns. Of course the tangs are the ones showing the ich. So far they are eating find and active as ever. They are just scratching and taking pit stops at the cleaner shrimp station. Actually, as of yesterday the hippo tang looks clear and healthy, meanwhile the powder brown has the white spots. They kind of flip flopped infestment times. I know ich works in cycles. I was just wondering your opinion on doing nothing besides keeping up high water quality and high diets.
<Seeing as they're marine fish, it's "crypt, not "ich"...and the problem is never going to go away, and will only get worse if additional fish are added. As always, I recommend the fish be moved into a hospital tank and treated with quinine sulfate, and the display be left fallow for six weeks. If no additional fish are desired, a U/V sterilizer will probably keep things under control, although it won't eradicate the parasite>
Thanks for your help.
<Anytime! Mike Maddox>
<<RMF disagrees... many, if not most marine systems do have a resident ich (yes, the name can be, is applied to marines)/Crypt infestation... Given some sort of "positive" stability, most systems don't develop "very" debilitating outbreaks>>

Re: An addendum for/to you, Re:  Is treatment for crypt necessary? 5-22-09  6/1/2009
I had a similar situation that exploded on my when I added new fish...crypt was barely present for months, until the new fish (being more susceptible) caused a rampant infestation! I'm sure things could work out either way,
but after my experience I answered on the side of caution! :)
Mike
<I see. BobF>

Can ich disappear on its own?/Marine Disease 5/21/09
Hi.
<Hello, whomever you are.>
I have an odd question. Can saltwater ich come and go in two days?
<No.>
I have two fish in my 29 gallon tank, a clownfish and a Royal Gramma. Two days ago, I noticed what looked like small clear and/or white spots on the royal gramma's head at feeding time right before lights out, as well as some light dusting on his tail. I decided I would set up a hospital tank in the morning, after researching the best course of action for treatment. The next day I didn't see anything on the fish's head, though his tail still looked like there were some tiny spots. I spent all my free time reading every article on this site regarding saltwater ich, but after several hours and a massive headache, I couldn't decide which type of medicine to use. (I have both formalin and Copper Safe in my "fish medicine cabinet," but the more I read, the more I'm afraid the treatment may be worse than the disease, yet I'm not sure what else to medicate with). By the time I was ready to break out the hospital tank, the Royal Gramma looked almost spot-free. Today he looks perfectly healthy, and is acting normally (the only sign of disease other than a few spots was a few rubs against the rocks when I first noticed the spots; no lethargy or lack of appetite). Does ich ever come and go that quickly?
<No, if it is indeed ich, the spores likely broke, leaving the fish looking clean. The new reproduced spores will actively be searching for a host.>
Should I wait and see or be proactive?
<If the spots come back, I'd do a dip, pronto.>
<<For what reason/s James? Will stress the hosts, and the infestation is still present... RMF>>
I'd rather not put him and his tankmate through the stress of a freshwater dip and move to a hospital tank if they're not really sick,
<A freshwater dip will be less stressful than formalin and/or copper. If the dip doesn't work, then I'd go with formalin before resorting to copper. Have you read here? http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm>
and I'm not sure if the fish or I will survive the stress of trying to catch him when he ducks into one of several holes in the live rock every time I approach the tank.
<Yes, literally impossible without removing the rock.>
Has anyone ever heard of ich that goes away on its own?
<As above.>
Thanks in advance.
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>

medicating food for Cryptocaryon irritans 09/19/09
Good day all! have written to you before many years ago, still love your informative site
<Me too... more and more as time goes by>
I have a large reef aquarium with hard and soft corals ,numerous invertebrates in 5000 litres it has been running since August last year 2008, it replaced another 5000 litre FOWLR aquarium whose glass cracked after 12 years, fortunately it was laminated glass so it gave me time to construct the new one and move the stock over.
<Yikes... you were fortunate>
I have constantly had battles with whitespot tried many different remedies including hyposalinity but never used copper as it was not feasible, would
kill my live rock and shrimps. Through the years the whitespot has never really decimated my fish most seem to survive with it and continue to eat normally, Some of the fish are over 20 years old the average age is actually close 5-9 years for the majority.
<I see>
Presently I have an outbreak and all though quite a few fish show spots only one seems to be taking strain my Adult French angel( 11 years with me) is still eating but his breathing is laboured and he sulks in the shadows after he has eaten. I recently acquired Chloroquine phosphate tablets and was thinking about making a medicated food gel with them that I could feed them taking great care so that most gets eaten and very little would fall on invertebrates in the aquarium, the dosage seems to be 3.7g per 300g of gelatin but I have some questions about this process.
<Okay>>
First to make the gelatin food, you need to use hot water to mix the gelatin would this denature the medicine?
<Mmm, no... or at least not if you allow the temperature to drop sufficiently (comfortable skin temp.) after mixing the water and emulsifier/gel>
Do I add the medicine as the gel cools?
<Ah yes>
Not quite sure how to make this medicated food properly.  Second do you think feeding this medicated food every 2nd day is the way to do it?
<I would feed daily>
Third do you think I should not go this route at all given that some of the fish are old , it might compromise their immune systems more?
<No... I would GO this route... use the CP... is quite safe and effective as detailed>
Currently all water parameters are normal PH 8.2-8.3 KH 10/11dkh Ca 370 ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 2.9 mg/l(Hanna photometer) Phosphate 0,25
temperature 26-27 Celsius Sg 1.024 I feed them frozen foods mixed with vitamin c and beta glucan and garlic and alternate this with pelleted foods also mixed with the vitamins, I'm worried that in my attempt to cure with medicine I might actually kill them.
<Highly unlikely>
The water is filtered through a Uv sterilizer 55w at 1000 litres an hour and prior to this it goes through 10-20 micron cartridges changed as they
clog and slow the flow down to 500 litres per hour,
<Do get/use at least a "second set" here while the other is rinsing, air drying>
don't know if this helps maybe trap some free swimming white spot?
<Mmm, some, but not all... Cryptocaryon intermediate stages require about an order of magnitude smaller sieve to be trapped>
How large is the free swimming infective stages?
<Please see WWM re... am out in Sing. standing up... sans ref.s>
Also it is ozone treated in a small protein skimmer for just that purpose, I have larger skimmers for actual skimming.
<Ahh, good. I don't see a measure offered above for RedOx measure... I would keep this high... 375 mv>
So do you think it is worth medicating the food?
<I definitely do>
or just trying to ride it out with high water quality and boosting the immune systems of the fish.
Thank you for your advice!
regards
Shawn Cambouris
<Am hoping ChristineW will chime in here with her input. Bob Fenner>

Quinine..sulfate or phosphate???   5/11/09
I have been reading WWW and have decided to treat my minor ich outbreak, in my QT tank with Quinine. The questions is, I have seen Quinine referred to as both Quinine Sulfate and Quinine Phosphate. Are these different, does one work better than the other or is it all the same thing.
nationalfishpharm.com sell the quinine sulfate version so I was thinking about ordering their "crypto-pro" Thank you.
<Likely your best approach is to use Chloroquine Phosphate... Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>

ICK problem, and dilemma with new tank?, 4/22/09
I currently have a 10 gallon saltwater tank with a juvenile (3.5 inch) porcupine puffer and a valentine puffer, 1 peppermint shrimp, 1 long tentacle anemone, and various snails and hermit crabs.
<Too small and you likely won't have the invertebrates for long.>
Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20-40 (varies). I know this is way too small of a tank for these fish.
<Yes>
That is why I am currently cycling a 45 gallon long tank with two aqua-clear 70 hob filters, 1 aqua-clear 70 power head, 120 pounds sugar size oolite aragonite, and 50 pounds of live rock.
<Still too small for a fish that gets larger than a football.>
I am currently looking for a good skimmer in the $200 price range that will be employed when the tank is finished cycling. I know that tank too is also to small, but I currently live in Myrtle Beach and I am moving to
Charlotte in a year, where I will be building a custom 300+ gallon home for my FWF (friends with fins).
<The Porc puffer will likely not last that long, stock for what you have now.>
I am currently going to school for civil engineering, I just can not stay away from my favorite hobby anymore. I think that the 45 gallon will be big enough for another year, and not that difficult to move 350 miles.
<Moving tanks is difficult, even at this size.>
My problem is that my porcupine puffer keeps getting these outbreaks of ick. I have a 10 gallon quarantine tank, that I did not have before I got my puffer, yes I learned my lesson. Now my entire display tank is infested and I do not want to transfer anything to my new 45 gallon tank. I had my puffers in the bare bottom qt tank for 3 weeks, medicating them with Mardel CopperSafe, being careful not to overdose my scaleless friends.
<3 weeks is not long enough, the parasites life cycle is at least 4 weeks.>
The spots went away, but I wanted to make sure that the ick was gone so I left them in the tank for a few more days until it looked like they were being bored to death. I felt sorry for my pals and acclimated them back to the main tank using the drip method, which they did not like at all.
<Back into an infected tank.>
They have been back in the main tank for about two weeks, all of the levels exactly the same except for the Nitrates 0-10, which I blame on the lack of fish in the tank, the two puffers act normal, just like there is nothing wrong, and I wake up this morning and the ick is back. I guess my question is what do I do to eradicate this terrible parasite and prevent it from getting to my new tank when I transfer my fish, and invertebrates over to it.
<Need to treat the ich completely, can take up to 6 weeks to clear the fish in QT of the parasite and break the lifecycle in the main tank. Also I would investigate Quinine Sulfate for the puffer, they are very sensitive
to copper.>
Your website has been so helpful, but my wife gets pretty mad when I set at this computer and look at page after page of discussions and answers.
Thank you for any advice that you can give because I truly feel like you guys know exactly what you are talking about. I love your website. Thanks again, sorry for the long email.
Concerned puffer lover. James
<I would think about finding a new home for the porcupine puffer, it is not likely to do well even in the larger tank.>
<Chris>

How to create a quarantine tank to get rid of ich and accommodate a watchman goby 4/22/09
Quarantine Tank
One of our fish in the tank came down with ich, and now we would like to quarantine the other fish to help get rid of the ich in the DT. We have not quarantined our fish before this since this is a new tank for us and we had not had a QT until now. The question is, I want to create an appropriate tank for quarantining that will be okay to keep my Watchman Goby in. From what I understand, it is not recommended to keep sand in a QT. Will a goby survive without sand on the bottom of the tank, or will he be too stressed?
<You will need to create cave like structures for it to call home, will have a calming effect on the goby. The Watchman Goby can survive without sand.>
I have also read that some have used silica based sands in the QT. Is silica sand okay for a goby, and will it prevent ich from reproducing in the QT.
<No sand is going to prevent ich from reproducing.>
I am wondering about silica sand b/c <because?> I have read on WWM that it is better to keep in the QT instead of aragonite (calcium based substrates).
<I believe that is leading to using copper, as aragonite will absorb copper.>
We plan to keep the fish in the QT for several weeks so the ich can run its course in the QT and DT to hopefully eradicate the problem. Any other suggestions are greatly appreciated since we would rather not use any copper based products for treatments.
<Yes, is better to go that route first. Do provide healthy nutrition, will go a long way in disease prevention.>
Also I have heard that hyposalinity treatments can be difficult on fish.
<Not if they are reasonably healthy. Read here.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm>
Thank you for the great site with all the helpful info.
<You're welcome.>
I'm enjoying the reef invert book. I find it very informative.
<Totally in agreement with you here, great book, and Bob thanks you for this.
If you haven't already, do read here.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/shrimpgobies.htm
James (Salty Dog)>
Jen

White spots (ich?) on new clownfish, 4/22/09
Hi. I have a 20-gal. tank, and had one percula clownfish for 6 years. A month and 1/2 ago he died in the space of a few hours when the tank heater malfunctioned, and the temperature went up to almost 95 degrees. It was terrible, because he was perfectly healthy, and I had no idea the temp was increasing.
<Sorry>
I bought a new heater the next day, kept the (empty) tank running the entire time since the levels (PH, nitrite, salinity, etc.) were all very good, and two weekends ago (10 or 11 days) bought two new percula clownfish
at Petco. Since I had no other fish, I did not quarantine them, but put them into my tank after acclimating them. I did NOT pour the Petco water into my tank.
<Still can transfer parasites.>
They were doing great, but this morning one came out of his sleeping place (a conch shell--in the tank the whole time) and he's covered in white spots on both sides, though his eyes still look clear (just since last night!).
I read through various WetWebMedia entries, and I guess he has "ich."
<Definite possibility.>
All the entries I found were about new fish (introduced into healthy tanks with other fish) who got sick, but my case might be different (I hope) since they're my only fish.
<Still the same issue.>
My questions: Will the other fish definitely get it?
<Most likely already infected, if not soon will be.>
Since I have only the two fish in the tank, should I quarantine the sick one (in tank water, or new saltwater)?
<QT both or neither, just one and you will just return him to an infested tank.>
Or should I treat the entire tank and "dip" both fish?
<I would try to avoid treating the main tank if possible, will damage your live rock and any invertebrates you have. Also difficult to maintain dosing levels with the rock and sand absorbing many medications.>
Is the tank water permanently diseased?
<No>
And with what should I treat them?
<A few options here, all with pluses and minuses, see here for ideas http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .>
I'm confused about the various solutions offered, though "Ionic copper solutions" sound best.
<Can work, but need to watch the levels closely as clowns are sensitive to copper.>
Unfortunately, I have to go to work now, and can't be back till after 5:00. I will buy & do whatever you suggest, because I want to save my fish.
Losing Jerry six weeks ago was horrible, and I will do anything to save my new pets. Is there anything I can do in the meantime to help before I leave @ 9:00 AM?
<No, better to come up with a plan than act rashly.>
Thanks so much for any and all advice, because I just don't know the best course of action to take for both fish. (They get along very well with each other, BTW.) Thanks, Lee Amanda Tatum
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Marine Ich: Hyposalinity/Ich Attack 4/14/2009
<Hi Wes>
I have a 55 gallon with an ich outbreak.
<Ouch>
1 clown, striped damsel, blenny and a couple of crabs and snails left.
I've been dosing it with Kordon's Ich Attack.
<While I like most of Kordon's products, Ich Attack is pretty much useless.
Any medication that tells you to use it when there are no symptoms as a disease preventative, and to double the dose if the infection is "severe", will not list the ingredients, and states that the best results are achieved when infections are "anticipated" isn't really a medicine.>
The spots on my clown keeps coming back. Its almost a week now since the treatment. I'm considering hypo on the whole tank.
<Hyposalinity is not effective by itself.>
Will hyposalinity kill the beneficial bacteria from my LR and LS? <<It might. RMF>>
<No, but it will harm any invertebrates on your LR and LS. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
The best way to treat ich is to get the infected fish into a hospital\quarantine tank and because you have clownfish, treat with quinine sulfate. You can purchase quinine sulfate at:
http://www.nationalfishpharm.com
You can read more about treatment treating with quinine here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm
As an absolute last resort, you can treat your display tank with quinine, but it will kill all snails in your tank and can be toxic to other invertebrates.>
Thanks!
<You're welcome>
Wes
<Mike>

SW Disease: Crypt: Treatment\Quarantine\Medicating Display Tank\Severe Overstocking\Reading 4/13/2009
<RMF: Any Additional Input?><<Mmm, no. What you've done is good, complete>>
Hi
<Hello Jesus,>
I have a problem with ich in my tank <An all too common, and avoidable problem. Read here for instructions on how to keep it from showing up in the future:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm >
I've had it for 10 days and even though no fish have died I still see fish scratching and I still see white spots on some fish
<Are these fish still in your main tank or in a quarantine\hospital tank?
Read the following pages and the linked pages at the top of each page:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm >
I've been using Quick Cure I also brought my salinity down to 15. <1.015>
<I get the feeling you are talking about your display tank.>
What else can you recommend? I really appreciate you're help thanks.
I have a 210 gallon fish only with plenty of not live rock.
<You are talking about your display tank; "not live rock"... Any rock left in a tank long enough will become "live" with time. How old is this tank?
Of course, if you are putting Quick Cure in the display tank, it is likely dead rock now, even if it was alive.>
I have a:
Yellow Tang,
Hippo Tang,
Black Tang, <Zebrasoma rostratum perhaps?>
Tomini Tang,
care bean blue, purple, <???>
Queen Angel,
Emperor Angel,
Flame Angel,
Lemon Peel Angel,
Coral Beauty Angel,
Potter<s> Angel,
Mata Angel, <Mata Tang>
etc. <You mean there are more fish than what you have listed already?>
<This tank is grossly overstocked. There is no possible way that this amount of fish will be sustainable in a 210 gallon tank, a few of the fish you listed get from 1 to 2 feet long. I would advise you to return as many
of these fish back to the store as possible, but since they are infected, it is your responsibility to treat them before returning them.>
Equipment I have: wet dry, protein skimmer, Ocean Clear, UV light 40 watts, Fluval F5, 0 ammonia.0 nitrite, pH 8.2, nitrate20ppm, and I do 15% water change weekly.
Please help what I am doing wrong.
<You have backed yourself into a very tight corner with no easy solution.
The simplest\best way to treat ich is to get the infected fish into a quarantine tank and treat with copper or quinine sulfate, and let the display tank go fallow (without any fish) for 4 - 6 weeks. Given your stocking load, You are going to have to do one of two things:
1. Buy several smaller tanks to treat the fish. This will involve several water changes per day
2. Treating the main display tank - Use quinine sulfate, available from www.nationalfishpharm.com This will kill any mollusks (snails) in the tank. It is toxic to other invertebrates to a lesser degree You will have
to monitor water quality daily and execute large water changes between treatments. You can read more about dosing with quinine here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm >
Thank you.
<Best of luck>
<Mike>

Ich is icky! Crypt decisions  – 04/12/09
Hi all,
<Carly>
I have read a lot of the articles on ich treatment on your website very helpful, thanks a bunch! I have two tanks set up, a 8gallon BioCube (consisting of my coral, shrimp and other inverts) and a 50 gallon reef
display tank. I only started the reef tank up in January and followed all of your great instructions on that, however was not practicing quarantine management (dumb, dumb, dumb of course, I know now) and have managed to get everything to be ich infested. My large tank has a Solaris goby, a orange spotted goby a 6 line wrasse and one clown fish left, also live rock and sand, but no coral as of yet. I have set up a quarantine tank for my other clown that I transferred to my little tank when he became sick and transferred him into it today, it is bare bottomed and I have put Coppersafe into it, I cant test the level of copper because my LFS did not have a copper test,
<Foolishness... can easily be ordered online>
but I figured the clown wasn't doing well at all in the first place so he looked doomed either way.
<... defeatist attitude>
It has been 4 hours since i placed him in the tank and he is still doing loop de loops but is still alive, we will see in the morning. My question now is my wrasse and my other clown have two spots each on them and I don't know whether it would be better to lower my salinity to 1.017-1.018 and raise my temp to 82 and send my cleaner shrimp in to deal with the ich
<The lowered spg will kill the shrimp...>
OR pull them both out and put them in the copper quarantine as well?
<Up to you>
I've read that gobies don't handle copper well
<This is so>
and I am worried that they might get it as well, but if it's already in the display tank and they haven't got it yet then.....i think I'm just worried that as long as there are any fish in the tank with or without spots that the ich will have a place to hide, but I cant treat the display with copper, so how do I get it out, or do I just get it to a reasonable level?
<"It" being the crypt? Your choice... Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above>
(the first death was basically overnight and two weeks ago) If it looks like there is no ich on the fish in approx. 5-6 weeks in the main tank and I kept the gobies in the tank (and possibly the wrasse and last clown with the shrimp), is it okay to add the quarantined fish back?
<Maybe... the system will be infested from here on out... Weakened states, too much stress and it will express>
Thank you so much for your help!
Carly
<A bit more reading is suggested before your deciding, acting. Bob Fenner>

Re: Water pump..More about Crypt Treatment 4/10/09
While we are chatting do you think a copper dip could help with ich?
<Copper treatment can.>
Or do you have to do the fallow thing?
<Both if the main system is infected, with all the fish in a quarantine tank for treatment. DO NOT treat in the main system.>
I have a Foxface and hippo with ich. All others appear ok. It's been over two weeks now. I have tried nosickfish, and Medic. No results, no cure anyways.
<I am not familiar with the products and the manufacturer seems to provide no info on the active ingredients....do read
WWM re the issue. Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/treatmen.htm
and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuarMarFishes.htm>
Sent from Penny Pendergraft
Ellcar Ventures Ltd.
<Sent from Scott V. of WWM and Glass-Holes.com.>

Lionfish with Ich... parasitic reef sys.    4/10/09
Good Morning!
I have read through the Lionfish threads on this site, as well as countless others, and have yet to find a thread similar to my situation. First I'll give you a little history on my tank. It's a 55 gallon that was set up in
December of '08.
<Mmm, a bit too small for Pterois...>
I had a major ich outbreak that took all of my fish in January. My tank sat fallow for 6 1/2 weeks. About 3 weeks before my fallow period was up there was a small (3-4 in.) Volitans Lionfish at my LFS who had been in there a while. I asked the owner about it and he said it was very healthy.
Needless to say, he ended up following me home.
<Heee! You must live in a swamp!>
I kept him in the quarantine for the remaining 3 weeks, and he showed no signs of any parasites or disease. 6 weeks was up so I put him in my display tank. For the first week and a half everything was great, but I
noticed 2 small zits (not markings) on his side at the start of week two.
The spots disappeared by evening, but I know that that doesn't mean they are gone for good. Sure enough about 5 days later (today) I noted one spot on one eye and the other is somewhat cloudy towards the top. He has also been spending the majority of the time towards the bottom of the tank just hanging out. When I introduce food though he quickly swims up to the top to get it. Here is where you come in. Moving him back to the quarantine would just stress him out more, and the ich obviously still in my tank, so he would have to stay in there for 8 weeks. I have a reef environment so treating the tank is out of the question. Should I just let him ride it out and hope for the best?
<This might be best... at least better>
I haven't weaned him off of live food yet. I was planning on trying the "starve" method for 4 days and then introducing the dead food, but I am afraid to not give him food if he isn't feeling well. Any advice will be
much appreciated!
Ivan
<Please read here re others experiences along the same vein:
http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files in the series above. Bob Fenner>

Crypto/ich issues... Ridiculous stocking, sans reading   4/8/09
Hi WWM Crew!
I have a few questions and tried perusing your FAQ first but couldn't find the exact answers I was looking for, sorry if this is redundant! My fiancé and I have a combined 65 gallon fish only + 30 gallon frag tank + 33 gallon sump system. Currently in the 65 is a DFP, rabbit fish, two anthias, a snowflake eel, a copper banded butterfly, and two black clowns (w/ rose anemone). My fiancé has patience issues and didn't quarantine our first fish (BIG mistake and has since learned his lesson). Most of the fish have shown signs of Ich/crypto with obvious infections that come and go. They still eat fine so we monitor the situation and move them to our quarantine tank if necessary (otherwise leaving them be to reduce stress). We recently got a beautiful, healthy powder blue tang
<This species needs much more room than you list, have... I'd say a six foot long tank that is "well-aged"...>
which caught the parasite and promptly died within 8 hours. In our frag tank we have a 6 line wrasse, diamond goby, Catalina goby,
<A coldwater animal. Misplaced here>
barnacle blenny and....a banded cat shark
<No... please tell me you're joshing>
(yes we know the tank is WAY too small - we just got the egg two weeks ago and thought we had more time until hatching so as to procure a larger tank). We have since bought a new 240 gallon tank and will be moving everything over within the next week.
<Oh!>
We feel that this provides us with the best opportunity to clear our system and fish of the parasitic infection.
<Well-stated>
Our normal course of action would be to QT the fish and treat with copper while establishing the new tank with all the precautions necessary there.
<Mmm, along with dips/baths going to...>
However, we were at a loss with what to do with the shark (we can't keep him and the DFP in the same tank anyway, let alone not being able to treat him with copper).
<Trade this shark in, to someone who can, will care for it, or get another tank>
Upon finding readings on your website I have come to believe that quinine treatment is our best option all around. First question, will quinine harm corals?
<Not directly>
Also, will corals carry the parasite?
<Anything wet can be a vector>
How do you microscopically determine whether it is Ich or crypto?
<... These are the same species... See WWM re>
And finally, if quinine can't be used in combination with corals, what do you recommend as far as freeing them from bugs? Thanks so much! I look forward to hearing from you!
Katie Torley
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>

Re: crypto/ich issues 4/8/09
Thanks for the info. I guess I wasn't clear when I referred to not being able to keep the DFP and banded cat shark in the same tank - I meant the same QT tank (making it easy to treat the other fish with copper and the shark with quinine). The shark will go in the 240 gallon we have and the DFP will remain in another tank (we heard the DFP will try to eat the sharks eyes, any truth to this?)
<Yes, a possibility>
While some say it's ok to keep the shark in this tank for his entire life, we don't feel comfortable doing that and WILL trade it in when it get's bigger or will get an even bigger tank (current footprint is 8x2). I guess what I'm really getting at here is if quinine IS the most effective treatment of parasites in sharks?
<Maybe Protozoans, but not all parasites, no>
What other actions can we take to make sure we don't end up introducing it into our new tank?
<... please see WWM re... there's too much to relate to here>
Can the shark be freshwater dipped without problem (he's not even currently showing infection signs but better safe than sorry!).
<Agreed>
He just hatched Friday night/Saturday morning and has already been eating for two days. We're pretty attached and want to make sure nothing happens to him. Would there be issues with quarantining him and the snowflake eel together for quinine treatment?
<Again... some small possibility>
Thanks for all your help!
Katie
<Welcome. BobF>

Need some help with my 300g reef!! Reading re Crypt mostly  4/6/2009
Hi Guys!!
<Perry Como parley vous?>
I have read your web page for some time now! Love it.
<Ok>
I am having some trouble getting rid of ICH. I have a 300g reef tank with a 150g sump. Tank has a 36w UV filter, i gave ozone but don't use it.
<?>
I got to my tank one day and there it was! ICH, took all my fish out ( had to remove 400LB of rock!) and took them to a friends place with a 100g quarantine tank.
they have been there for 5 weeks. The problem is I got a call a few weeks ago from a friend that imports fish ( forgot to say that live in Colombia South America ) that he got 2 Moorish idols, I love these fish, but the must be left at sea!. he told me that he did not want them he just gave them to me.
I have good experience with finicky fish, but my tank had ich!... so i put them in my hospital tank at home ( small 40g) they were in there or 2 weeks with copper, but did not eat at all, so i got in contact with my reef pals and we decided they had a better chance in the main tank than in the 40g tank, so we put them in the 300g.
<... in an infested system?>
that was 4 days ago.. the firs day we got them in there the started feeding.. spectrum, frozen foods, etc..... but today i the got ich!!....
the tank had been fish free for almost 4 weeks and the idols looked perfect.
I have to make a decision... leave them there and keep feeding them spectrum with Flagyl or take them out. I really don't want to take them out... you know the stress to them and the corals! what do you think I should do? i have the rest of my fish at my friends place, do i leave them there until the ich clears??
thank you sooo much for your help!
Juan
<... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>