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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 34

Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts, Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic DiseaseQuarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes

Related FAQs: Best on Crypt, Crypt 1, Crypt 2, Crypt 3, Crypt 4, Crypt 5, Crypt 6, Crypt 7, Crypt 8, Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14, Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17, Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 23, Crypt FAQs 24, Crypt FAQs 25, Crypt FAQs 26, Crypt FAQs 27 Crypt 28, Crypt 29, Crypt 30, Crypt 31Crypt 32, Crypt 33, Crypt 35, Crypt 36, Crypt 37, Crypt 38, & FAQs on Crypt: Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Phony Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,  Products That Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power, ), Formalin Containing: (e.g. Quick Cure),  About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive Fishes:  By Fish Group: Sharks/Rays, Morays and other Eels, Mandarins/Blennies/Gobies, Wrasses, Angels and ButterflyfishesTangs/Rabbitfishes, Puffers & Kin...  &  Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine Velvet Disease, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease,


My friend's fish are sick      5/30/14
First I'd like to apologize for my spelling mistakes, English is not my mother language but I'll do my best.
<I understand you perfectly; thank you>
So I contact you because all the fish in my friend's tank are getting sick.
He has a 200 gallons reef tank.
Here are some pictures of the tank :
<Ah; very nice>
People already told him to move all the fish or the rocks but unfortunately my friend has no other aquarium to stock the rocks neither the fish.
<Looks fine as is... are you concerned w/ a/the lack of circulation through the rock pile? I would not be>
So everything started 3 months ago his Acanthurus leucosternon started to
have grey/black spot (like black Ich or something).
Here is a picture of him
<Mmm; I see some white spots... likely indicative of Crypt... but not too many...>
He tried garlic, grapefruit and vitamin on him but nothing seems to work, the fish keeps the black/grey little dot and he's rubbing himself on the rocks/sand.
<Some such scratching, glancing is natural; particularly with some of the very problematic "catching" tang species... Best to "treat" indirectly as he's been doing. Do read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/PBTDisFAQ2.htm
and the linked files above>
Everyone accords to say that if it was Ich he'd have died already.
<Mmm; no; not necessarily... BEST to have a go at sampling and looking under a microscope... Easy to do>
4 days ago the others fishes started to get also sick but it seems that there are different sickness.
<May be more than one>
Here are some pics : Synchiropus splendidus getting totally white
<Mmm, could be the treatments alone... the grapefruit et al. added; triggering a cascade event amongst the corals, poisoning the fishes... stressing them, making them more susceptible to the Crypt. See here re:
and as much of the files above till you understand the potential situation.
... I would hold off/stop with the citrus>
Anthias doing the same http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/682510P5294994.jpg  (he died yesterday)

<This fish looks burned chemically... and more Crypt on the tail/caudal>
He tested the parameters and they're all fine, the nitrate are a just a little bit high but nothing bad 15MG/L.
<Not problematical of/by itself>
I guess he bought some contaminated fish at the LFS but usually the LFS treat them before selling them I guess some parasite and bad others things survived(stress probably did not help too).
<ALL MUST do their own isolation/acclimation/quarantine of new livestock...
a sad and expensive lesson here>
I just went back from his house and it's getting worst so I come here in hope that you can help me identifying what's wrong with the fish and if there's a cure.
<... I'd be reading on WWM re Cryptocaryon cures.... Starting here:
He almost tried everything reef safe,
<... not useful. There are NO such "reef safe" treatments that are efficacious... that is, that actually work>
he's thinking of using UV fertilizer
<Sterilizer... again... will NOT cure an entrenched Protozoan infestation>
for 10 weeks. Do you think it will help or do you have any other advice ?
<READ, and QUICKLY. Formulate a plan... EITHER in-tank, or moving all fishes elsewhere... NOW>
Thanks in advance for your reply,
<Thank you for the care, preparation, image-work you've sent along. PLEASE do write back if any part of this message is incomplete or unclear. Bob Fenner>

Marine Ich Procedures      4/23/14
Dear Bob & Crew,
Hope that this message finds you in good health and spirits!
<Ah, thank you>
Just a quick question today. Unfortunately, my 155 gallon in-wall reef has come down with a case of Ich. It couldn't have come at a worse time. When I first noticed it, my son by chance had to have emergency surgery (250 miles away, mind you). There was no opportunity to put the fish in quarantine.
Luckily, the fish load was quite light and the losses were minimal.
My question is, for some curious reason, my yellow Watchman Goby
<Gobies and blennies are notably quite resistant... perhaps their being slimy, living on and in rough substrates... perhaps adaptive from being so near the tomonts>
survived the ordeal and I never noticed a trace of Ich on him. Granted, its much harder to see on this elusive guy but I'm baffled as to why something as virulent as marine Ich would leave in unscathed. As far as I know, this species has no special immunity.
<Actually; there is discernible range of susceptibility... For instance, some Tangs (Acanthurids) are veritable "Ich magnets", w/ other groups of fishes (e.g. Mandarins) being near resistant>
Lastly, I was planning on letting the tank go fallow for 2 months (thank God corals are not susceptible!) but with the watchman, I'm not sure if the Ich will remain in the system.
<Others, and myself... have stated the opinion that Crypt in various virulences may be omnipresent in captive systems; on most fishes...>
Any suggestions?
<Mmm, let's have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and as much of the linked files at top as you deem prudent.>
Joe W.
<Welcome. BobF>

Tank transfer method for Whitespot      4/23/14
I am after some feed back about the tank transfer method for treating fish for white sport.
<... to avoid Cryptocaryon I take it. This is posted on WWM. Have you tried searching?>
I am more than lucky to have the facility to conduct this over the 5 transfers that seem to be the minimum recommended in forum posts such as the extensive on Reef Central. I am keen to hear what you think about this method. The science behind it and how it takes advantage of the crypt life cycle seem sound.
<Useful in some cases, circumstances, but not generally the route I encourage... for practical reasons: Once someone realizes their system is infested, there are almost always multiple generations at work... host fishes being moved about is not only debilitating to them, but accomplishes little as the Protozoans are being moved with them to the new settings>
Thanks for your thoughts. By the way I don't have Whitespot in any of my fish. I have traditionally QT all fish and do a round of hypo as a catch all. I just thought the tank transfer may be simpler and more certain at eliminating Ich. I would also like to add some fish to my main tank that are more difficult to hypo for extended periods due to diet such as the mandarin.
<Search; read. Bob Fenner>

pod and fish question... Nonsense non-use of WWM re Crypt    4/7/14
Good afternoon, Robert. I had a powder blue tang who was doing really well until last Friday. I noticed he was in great distress, and had pieces of his fins torn off. Within seconds, I saw my Paddlefin wrasse, chasing and nipping him non stop.
<Thalassoma spp. can be such bug-a-boos>
I turned the lights off, and began setting up a hospital tank for PBT to recover. The next day, the PBT is no where to be found. I checked underneath the live rock, took pieces out, checked the overflows etc. Still can not find. Question is, how urgent is it to find and remove this fish by tearing apart the entire tank?
<The fish may be gone (dead, dissolved-eaten) already>
Could this fish, in a 155, create an ammonia spike?
<... not likely; no>
Also, is there the possibility the PBT, being dead could release Ich eggs back into the water as he deteriorates?
And last question, I have a 60 cube tank
<Send this sep. B>
60 cube follow up
Okay, separate email.
Could the dead fish, the PBT, who are known to carry Ich, release Ich or Ich eggs as he deteriorates?
<Search, read on WWM, elsewhere re the life cycle of Cryptocaryon.... B>

Effective Protocol for Ich    3/28/14
Is this the best (most effective) protocol for Ich or do you recommend another one?
<Our input re is archived on WWM>

Reduce salinity in quarantine tank to between 1.010 - 1.013 (safe for fish for at least two months)
(1) dose of Chloroquine Phosphate at 40mg/gallon for 7-10 days
50% water change
(1) dose of Chloroquine Phosphate at 40mg/gallon for 7-10 days
50% water change
Add activated charcoal
Leave fish in QT for 3 more weeks for observation
<... I'd only dose CP once... not a fan of hypo... SEE WWM re. Bob Fenner>


Marine Whitespot.    3/28/14
Hi Bob,
The dreaded marine Ich.
<Uh, no fun>
The reason I write is partially for your readers and also your view.
I woke up and my fish were very blotchy and they were not scratching but darting. I thought this might be due to too high SG as I had been topping up with seawater
<That I hope you were storing in the dark for a few weeks; or bleaching/dechlorinating... or, or... one of the SOPs archived on WWM for natural water use>

on a temporary basis until I could find a good pure fresh water supply, due to possibly not having what I deem a safe freshwater supply for delicate marine fish, including the bottled water we previously discussed. As when I added it before the tank crashes.
I decided to take the risk and drained off some water and added the bottled water. All the fish seemed fine for a few hours. Then the next day they were worse and terribly blotchy and darting.
So I decided nature is the best way and did an 80% water change with fresh tropical Indian ocean water. Again all seemed fine for a few hours....then the next morning they were worse than ever in this incident, 80% colour loss with blotches.
There were no blotches on the clowns or even more surprisingly the Regal Tang the so called Ich magnet so I was not sure if it was Ich or not. The Majestic, Blueface and Emperor looked at death's door. No spots except one possibly on the tang.
I decided to treat with Cupramine but was not sure. Anyway within about 2 hours they were 95% normal and today (next day) they are 100% normal, even the Emperor (Juv) has that lovely black/blue back. They even ate within 2 hours of putting Cupramine in the tank, I did not try when they were blotchy in case of more stress on them.
So I think it was Ich but can Copper really work that quickly?
<Yes; but often just "a cycle" of the Parasite/s are treated/eliminated from the fishes themselves... other life stages off fish; in the system... to reinfest them>
Any thoughts, clearly it was a copper sensitive pathogen. I don't think it was Velvet as the gill rate and disease progression was not that fast. I only ever had velvet once a very long time ago and sadly it wiped out my tank very quickly. I was working then so did not have so much time to observe the fish.
What I am presuming is that as these fish have had Whitespot before they were fighting it with more mucous production and the free swimmers could not get through the mucus and the copper literally virtually killed them on contact. Does anyone know how copper kills Ich?
Anyway for your readers Ich can probably cause blotches without any spots, making sure you have Cupramine available is a must in such circumstances.
Cupramine is the best copper I have used (I am not associated with SeaChem except as an end user)
<I have literally used hundreds of gallons of this product. It IS effective, and relatively safe, used properly>
Kind regards,
<And you, Bob Fenner>

Ich question    /Darrel   3/10/14
<Darrel here.  I hijacked your question - but it's in Bob's inbox as well, so you'll hear from him as well>
Buddy of mine asked me what I thought about what he is going to do to treat Ich. Has a 220 gallon tank, and stubborn as a rock.
<The tank is stubborn?  Or you buddy?>
Wants to treat display tank, and refuses otherwise (maybe in time his opinion will change).
<OK - you're talking about your buddy.  Technically speaking the term you're looking for is not "stubborn."   The term you're looking for could be "misguided" or it could be a word that rhymes with … um … "cupid.">
He is going to remove all the Live rock from the tank, to help absorption of copper.
<There will be no problem absorbing the copper.  The sand will absorb it, the filter bed, the filter hoses, the silicone along the edges … they'll all absorb the copper and just wait until the live rock is placed back in - then they'll perform an interesting transformation of the live rock to dead rock and not only will the dead and dying bacteria foul the water, the residual copper will inhibit the generation of a health biocycle for months to come!>
He then wants to keep Cupramine at a .4 level for a month.
<I'm actually a fan of copper for treating Ich - I've used it successfully many times in the past - but Copper is what I call the "Nuclear Option."  Copper is Chemotherapy - it's a poison that kills all living things and we hope that it kills the Crypt before it kills the host>
<A very wise man (named BobF!) recently suggested an alternative.   My last bout with Crypt was with a small school of Blue Hippo Tangs - called the Queens of Ich.   I treated a 35 gallon tank with hyposalinity.   14 days at 1.009 SG and then 7 days SLOWLY returning the water to 1.023.>
<In retrospect I'd always stayed away from hyposalinity in the rationale that I was hurting the fish - yet for some reason I never thought twice about putting poison in their water.>
<Bob will finish the rest -- this is just my 2 cents>
Re: Ich question       3/11/14

Thanks Darryl-
I suppose that cupid word would work as well. He has a Ph.D. in pharmaceuticals, so that's why I was hesitant to call him that.
<My ex business partner had a PhD in nuclear physics from Rutgers.   Fishkeeping is a perfect example of a field that is a combination of art and science and often the "art" is knowing when to ignore the "science.">
His house, compared to mine, is immaculate, and the fish tank is the center point of the house. He has guys over from work all the time, whom he discusses financials with, and from what I understand, he uses the tank as a talking point. So to him, moving the fish to treat elsewhere in house, although smarter, would not be ideal for his "endeavors".
< I was thinking about the health of the fish in his care and their welfare and not how it would look to the Jones' next door.  That said, a 220 gallon tank with the live rock out … that will be a talking point for sure - and while I'm at it … why are we removing the live rock anyway?>
And I myself am confused about copper with nitrifying bacteria. I have seen him and some others use this particular copper, at a .5 level, sometimes higher, and have absolutely no losses or ammonia or nitrite spikes.  
<Cupramine is probably the safest form of copper out there.  The minimum required dose is something like 4 or 5 times less than the toxic dose -- but the fact that it HAS a toxic level tells us that it is a poison.  I remain unconvinced that there is a dose that effectively kills the Cryptocaryon and yet has no effect on the rest of the biology, but that is MY "art" and may not represent his "science."  All I was saying is that there is a safer and just as effective an alternative.>

Ich question; SW, temp. elev.   /RMF     3/11/14
Buddy of mine asked me what I thought about what he is going to do to treat Ich. Has a 220 gallon tank, and stubborn as a rock. Wants to treat display tank, and refuses otherwise(maybe in time his opinion will change).
<Or leave the hobby in frustration>
He is going to remove all the Live rock from the tank, to help absorbtion of copper. He then wants to keep Cupramine at a .4 level for a month.
<One approach>

I understand water temp dictates speed of life cycle for Ich. By raising his temp from 79 to 83 degrees but help expedite the process. Question is, if done gradually, done over 2 days or so, can the following fish handle 83 degrees F?
<Likely fine... I might even raise it a bit more>

Aussie Tusk
Achilles Tang
Powder Blue Tang
Scribble Angel
Koran Angel
Miniatus Grouper
and a Foxface.
Any of those sound unreasonably fit to handle temp increase?
<None... do increase aeration... DO is lower as temp. is elevated. B>
Re: Ich question    3/11/14

Thanks Bob. He has had a saltwater tank, either reef or fish only for the
better part of 20 years, and for the most has had continued success.
<Must have good practices... and be buying from good source/s>
 I know he has lost fish over the years and still doesn't get frustrated,
but its one of those I can only bring the horse to the water type deals.
<Ah yes; understood>
I will be watching and following his outcome. The obvious white spots you
see on tangs, once copper is at the .4 dosage, how long before those white
specs begin to fall off?
<... can be hours>
I know that even when they do, you are still far from over killing the
crypt. But it certainly is at least a mental relief to see those ugly white
marks disappear even for a short while.
Thanks again Bob
<Better to try quinine/s, cleaners... B>

Ich - Red Slime - Mandarin Acclimation (sel., fdg.... gen.)– 02/19/14
Thanks in advance for your time.
<<Hiya John…quite welcome>>
I have three questions, which I'm sure have been answered elsewhere so feel free to redirect me.
180 gallon with live rock (no coral yet but hope to), T5HO lights right now but will switch to LED with coral addition, assortment of snails, crabs, two cleaner shrimp and a pistol shrimp, below tank sump, protein skimmer, no refugium, stocked early with about 2000 pods which I still see in the tank and on LR.  Tank was set up around October 2013
1. I had an outbreak of Ich (vacation, pet sitter) that wiped out my tank except for a purple Firefish.  Firefish has been in quarantine (bare bottom tank, sp gravity 1.016)
<<Do consider adding a length of PVC pipe for the fish to hide in
.  A ‘bare’ tank is unnerving for any fish, but especially so for shy, timid species like the Firefish.>>
and the DT has been empty of fish as well.  Adequate for breaking the cycle or at least putting the Ich into a dormant state?
<<Four to six weeks fallow should “break the cycle” as you say…but 3 months will do better towards eliminating any “dormancy” issues.>>

 Is a slow drip acclimatization okay to put Firefish back in, and if so how slow?  Slow drip acclimation is fine (though you could do the tried and true  “float the bag, add small amounts of water” acclimation as well).  One to two drips per second works for me in most cases…but do search the site re ‘drip acclimation’ for a lot more info.>>
2.  After all the fish were removed, developed an outbreak of red slime as well as green slime on LR and substrate.  Coincidence or correlation?
<<Hard to say, but may well indicate a chemical/biological imbalance that was already stressing the fish.>>
<<Check bio-mineral content and get things back in balance.  Keeping Magnesium, Calcium, and Alkalinity in balance…and at the upper limits…helps significantly with controlling nuisance slime algae, in my experience.>>
Thoughts on vodka treatment?
<<I have used this method on-and-off for years (once with disastrous results, if I’m going to be honest), and do see a benefit when used judiciously.  It’s no panacea, but can be a useful adjunct…though I would recommend here that you first address the water chemistry and see if this does the job.>>
3.  Getting ready and excited to restock tank.  Thinking about starting with a pair of Blue/Green Mandarins so there won't be a hold lot of competition and harassment to give these guys a head start.  Thoughts on ORA vs. wild caught?
<<Definitely ORA…these fishes will take prepared foods ( get/use New Life Spectrum pelleted food) and have a much better chance of surviving long term.>>
With the pods not really having a predator would the population be adequate for them?
<<Not likely in the long run…thus the need for animals that will accept prepared foods.>>
Thoughts on a method or need for quarantine?
<<Mandarins/Dragonets, in my opinion, are less risky…and do much better…when acclimated right to the display.>>
Would a UV sterilizer ran every other week or so have an effect on pods?
<<Little if any…and likewise re controlling any nuisance organisms. >>
Do these have a better chance of survival as a pair or singly?
<<They can be kept either way…though if kept together do try to get a true “pair” or at the very least add the male and female to the system “together.”>>
Thanks again,
John A
<<Happy to share…  EricR>>

Ich. & Cu use, SW       2/9/14
Hi Bob,
I understand there are different strains of Ich and currently only my Real Tang has symptoms, the other, two ocellaris, Regal Angel, Emperor, Blueface and Majestic Angel (I like angels) all seem comfortable.
I have 4 questions - if I treat with Cupramine for six weeks as copper seems the only sure way to get rid of Ich
<Do read on WWM, the Net... books re the use of Quinine compounds>

 if I then place carbon in the tank and when the copper tests (API) shows clear therefore that it is negligible and leave fresh carbon in the system to absorb any copper with a pH shift etc can I then place an anemone in the tank as some sites say that the rocks and sand will still kill an anemone on contact?
<Not likely; no>

The other question is as I have read copper can damage fish kidney and liver?
<It can; from long exposure... high concentration as well; though this last generally just kills the specimen/s>

Lastly the Blueface changed from juvenile to adult in six weeks (80%) is this very fast as most people seem amazed.
<Does happen>
Thanks in advance.
<Do you need help searching WWM? Bob Fenner>

Post Ich   1/29/14
Hi Guys
<Hiya Rob - Darrel here>
About twelve months ago I added two baby blue tangs to my system and one came down with (what appeared to be) marine Ich. It was a very mild case and only 3 spots were visible so I decided not to subject him to more stress and leave him in the tank.
<OK … > A year later and all the fish are still swimming around and look healthy with no noticeable signs of stress.
<Now before we go any further, to make sure we're on the same page, you didn't subject the baby tang to any more stress, but you DID expose the other tank inhabitants to a potentially deadly condition.    When a tank member has been diagnosed with a possibly contagious condition, a big part of the isolation protocol is to protect the remaining tank members.  In this case it all worked out, and we're happy for you, but it was a dicey call.>
I have two Blue Tangs, Two Yellow Tangs, an Emperor Angel ( now almost fully changed ), a Flame Angel  & two True Percula Clownfish in a 600g Reef tank. My parameters are stable and kept in check by a Profilux 3.1nEX with a GHL Doser dosing two part Calcium / Alkalinity and 5 GHL Mitras LED lamps for lighting and 5 MP40s / 2 MP60s for flow. Water is circulated / treated via a sump and inline UV filter.
<Sounds good.   Seen many healthy tanks with far more of a bio-load.  So far, so good>
I purposely restrained myself from adding anymore livestock during this period, despite being very tempted. My question is do you it would be safe to introduce anything now? I kinda want to buy a Regal Angel and maybe a few schooling fish like Blue / Green Chromis.
My current fish were all added as youngsters and have established their own territories and very rarely see any bickering, so I don’t want to rock-the-boat.
<Rocking the boat is sometimes a worthwhile thing, Rob.  A perfectly healthy ecosystem can … what’s the word … stagnate from lack of diversity and sometimes changing things up is a good idea.>
<For me, your question brings up two topics.  The Territorial issue is one that many people don't think to address and usually by the time they realize what they've done, one or more tankmates are in distress (which itself can incite an outbreak of a number of diseases).    As a standard practice, I always plan a little remodeling when I introduce new fish.  Changing the tank around a bit creates all "new" territory and gives the new guy a bit of equal footing.   Given a second member of the Pomacanthidae this seems like an especially good idea.>
<The second issue, dear to my heart, is quarantine.   After the newcomers have been in their own tank for 4 weeks and have shown no sign of disease or debilitation, you can start the process of acclimatization and transfer.  During the last two weeks of quarantine (for a total of 6 weeks) I do a 10% daily water change - using the parent tank as the water source so that when it's time to transfer I'm transferring from and to the same water chemistry.  This goes a long way, in my opinion, to giving the newcomers a fighting chance in establishing themselves.>
<There is much debate on this point - so what you are hearing is me and not the opinion of Wet Web Media…  but Marine Ick (Crypt) as well as many other nasty bugs and conditions, are sitting there in the main tank right now… waiting… barely hanging on … kept in natural balance … just waiting for a weak and debilitated host to be introduced so they can start breeding in quantity.  You didn't ask me Rob, but this is America and I feel everyone is entitled to my own opinion … you got lucky with Crypt once - that's more than many of us ever get>

Hopefully you can help my with my sick Tinkers butterfly     1/7/14
Dear WetWebMedia-crew/Bob,
First I like to compliment you on your website. I really like the way it has grown organically and I appreciate the information provided a lot. I email you because I hope you can maybe point me to something I have overlooked so far. I have copied/pasted my question from the topic I started on ReefCentral.
<Can't convert these files... would you please just copy and paste them in a new email to me/us? Will respond to you below>
I really hope you can help me.
Kind regards,
Tanne Hoff
My tinker's butterfly is ill. I bought it 6 months ago and it has done very well the first 6 months.
< A tough species, sub- and whole genus>

Since it stopped eating last week I decided I should treat for Cryptocaryon.
<?... why? I would NOT do this>

I set up a small hospital tank using water from the aquarium and I started treating with a mild dose of malachite green, Methylene blue and formalin (commercially available fish medicine here sold under the brand name Femsee),
<Dangerously toxic>

 I stuck to these for 2 days.
Yesterday I switched to copper and Furaltadone (broad-spectrum antibiotic, Nitrofuran derative). I choose the copper because of what I have read both on websites such as these and based on the book by G. Bassleer about fish diseases. The Furaltadone was used because my LFS advised me to do so as he felt there might be secondary infections. This LFS mostly knows what they are talking about. I have a Salifert copper test kit and as I read I should gradually increase the level of the copper I started with about 0,15 mg/l.
<... has to be higher... 0.20 mg/l (eq. to ppm); but no higher than 0.35 ppm free/cupric ion>
I check nitrites and ammonium daily, so far both are undetectable. Daily I replace 50% of the water with water from the reef aquarium, I top up removed medication.
The fish still does not eat.
<Not with being moved, these chemical exposures, no... NEEDS to be moved back to more agreeable setting, conditions; offered foods it recognizes, perhaps laced with HUFAs, vitamins as appetite stimulant>
Of course, the main goal is to get the fish completely healthy again, but I feel I should get it to eating as well. Of course, the fish probably does not eat because it is ill, but the fact it does not eat does not help its immune system.
So my main questions are:
- am I doing everything right?
<No; not; see above>
- when could I expect the fish to eat again?
<...? When it is treated better>
All suggestions are more than welcome.
I filled in the questionnaire from the stickies as well.
<... for somewhere else. We don't do this/these on WWM>
Thanks in advance, also on behalf of my fish 
1. How old is this aquarium?
Set up in 2006. See the picture I have attached.
2. If less than six months old, what is ammonia level?
3. What is SG of this aquarium? How measured?
1.024, spindle
4. When was the last fish added to this aquarium?
August 2013, 5 small Anthias cooperi which all do very well.
5. Was it quarantined? If so, how? And how long? Was it prophylactically treated? How?
Kept in a separate perforated box in the tank for about 2 weeks.
Prophylactically treated in a FW-bath with Praziquantel for 25 minutes.
6. If you are using a copper based medication, which one? How often do you measure level? When?
See below.
7. If you are using hyposalinity, how did you calibrate your refractometer?-
8. Please describe in detail, the appearance of the fish? If there is one or more pimples, are they lumpy? What color?
Fish looks ok, but an experienced keeper could see there was 'something' wrong when the fish was still in the display tank. It has had a few spots earlier, but nothing serious. The amount of spots seems to have increased a bit, but, even worse: the fish quit eating last week so it was moved to a hospital tank on Jan. 4th. I have attached two pictures of the fish, the one from the front shows the skin's condition best. That picture is not completely clear, but especially on the black areas of the fish, the spots are visible quite well.
9. Please describe the behavior of the fish as best you can. Is it acting reclusive? Is it always up towards the top of the aquarium? Is it avoiding light? How active is the fish?
When still in the display tank, the fish used to be very active and ate nearly anything from between my fingers. Last week the fish quit eating and I did not get it to eat, I tried lots of food without any luck. When the fish quit eating, it went to the cleaner goby and cleaner shrimp more often and was less often swimming in the visible area of the aquarium.
10. Is the fish eating? What?
No, see above. There are some live Mysid shrimp, some bigger (but small enough for him) other shrimp and a clip of seaweed (which he used to like) but he does not touch anything.
<Return this fish to the main display... try opened shellfish, worms....
Bob Fenner>
Re: Hopefully you can help my with my sick Tinkers butterfly; now w/ pix     1/7/14

Dear Bob,
Thanks for your fast reply! Wow!!
I copy the text and add the pictures separately... Thanks in advance!! :)
<I see; these are all the same as what you included past your initial message. Which I have responded to since (between this email and your first>
<.... I see some light spotting in your included images... but am curious as to the other fish livestock... They did not, do not show symptoms? I would STILL return the BF to the main display... and have you read here:
and the linked files above; for background and to formulate a plan for fighting the loss of appetite, whatever possible protozoan issue this might be... in the entire system. We'll chat after your reading. BobF>
My tinker's butterfly is ill..... <the rest a copy of the above>

Re: Hopefully you can help my with my sick Tinkers butterfly    1/9/14
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your fast reply. It took me longer due to work duties, but I didn't skim investing time in the sick fish :)
The other fish in the tank are fine. For the last few years, I have seen some spots come and go and I actually regard that, in a otherwise healthy reef tank, to be something not to worry about. The reason I moved the tinker to a separate tank is that it got my attention it did not eat anymore.
<Such "transient" Protozoan parasite situations are very common... in fact, they're the rule rather than exception>
I have tried multiple food: live crustaceans (adult brine, Mysis and small feeder shrimp), live mussels (cut open) and today I introduced some vermetid snails without their shells. Apart from the mussel I have seen the fish devour these foods (next to nearly anything including flake food et cetera) in the large reef tank before. Whatever I do, the fish does not eat.
<The HUFA, vitamin mix/soak is advised again>
If the fish would have continued to eat in the display tank, I would have left it here, but to be more 'in control' I separated the fish.
<The fish itself is better in a larger, established/stable setting>
I hope your advice will help me to cure my fish :)

Marine Ick... reading     12/12/13
Hello everyone,
I have a 35 gallon quarantine tank set up with just a few PVC pipes as decorations and shelter and I have a flame angel, a blue tang and a long nosed hawk fish that have been in quarantine for 8 days.   I've been doing an 8 gallon water change every other day.
Today the Blue Tang has started swimming and rubbing himself on the edges of the pipes and while feeding I can see a white spot on his side.  
<A; as in single. I wouldn't panic; treat>
In the past I've tried a number of treatments for Crypt and copper was the only one that seemed effective on the blue tangs, but I'm not able to test the water 3 times a day right now.
The one treatment I've never tried but seemed so logical was hypo-salinity and what I'd like to know are your thoughts on that treatment and also will tangs and pigmy angels and Hawkfish all tolerate it?
<Hypo... Ehh; many, make that MANY responses to this and related matters are posted/archived on WWM. See where you found to write us re using the site. If you still need help; do write back. Bob Fenner>

It's been a year... Crypt et al. battles; hard lessons learned     11/19/13
Greetings to Bob and Crew at WetWebMedia!
Hope all is well with you and yours!
<Ah yes; thank you>
It has been a year since I've written, and I was holding off, because I was wanting to put some real success to my story. It would have been more successful if I had written a month ago but I wanted to wait till almost to the date that I first wrote to Mr. Fenner in 2009.
I was the one with the chronic crypt infestation in my 220 gallon reef tank.
<I do recall>
 Chronic meaning lasting up towards 3 years, started before Thanksgiving 2009. Trying everything from hyposalinity, Chloroquine, quinine, formalin, and finally Copper which finished everyone off = dead.
I ended up putting towards 6 gallons of Clorox Bleach in my entire system.
My nasal passages were cleared and I suffered mild brain damage from breathing in all the chlorine, which resulted in my second 220 gallon reef...Back to the original 220. Now, the tank is once again full of happy fishes - 13 Pseudanthias bartlettorum, 1 Halichoeres chrysotaenia, 1 Nemateleotris magnifica, 1Centropyge flavissima x C. vroliki (?), 1 Amphiprion ocellaris. If I had written you a month ago, I could have said a PAIR of H. chrysotaenia, plus a Macropharyngodon
geoffroyi  but I had to paint the room and they died of paint fume toxicity...it was the only thing I could think of as they all died within 48 hours of the painting.
My second 220 gallon is my pride and joy because I used everything I learned from WWM in setting this tank up. I have a Macropharyngodon bipartitus, Centropyge potteri, Forcipiger flavissimus, Oxycirrhites typus, Amphiprion ocellaris pair, Wetmorella tanakai, Ctenochaetus tominiensis, and my 6 year
olds Sphaeramia nematoptera and Cryptocentrus leptocephalus. One month ago the list would have included a Blenniella chrysospilos, Labroides dimidiatus, and *Oxymonacanthus longirostris *who also died a week after the paint incident. This tank was ten feet further from the paint!
Recently with all the losses, I wanted to try to REPLACE some of these lovely fishes that I adored...BAD MOVE, after QT of a male H. chrysotaenia, he is now in the tank with a She-male...I think my little girl "grew up" and there has been some lip locking and tail chasing action in the once peaceful tank. We will see what happens...
Well, I guess I wanted Mr. Fenner to know that I'm still in the hobby and enjoying it as I watch my Crypt-less fishes and share some things that I learned over the last year.
1. Remember the stocking ratio of the ocean as I snorkeled in the Maldives
- I try to replicate that "density" even though many people have told me that I under stock my tank - I am not the great Indian Ocean and learned that there is NO WAY for me to replicate that.
<Ah, do (next time) you're dive-traveling, turn away from the shallows of the reef; toward the open ocean. Not much life evident there>
2. A healthy fish, no matter how plain, is a beautiful fish!
3. Water changes weekly is the cheapest and most efficient way of lowering "bad stuff" and raising "good stuff" - I enjoy the little pieces of ocean I create but I do not enjoy playing chemistry!
After so many years, I continue to visit WWM regularly and learning much from all the readings!
<Ah, good>
Wishing you all a wonderful Holiday Season! It has become my habit to write
you near Thanksgiving, Thank YOU, Bob! for making all this possible!
Jamie Barclay
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Possible cure for early Marine Whitespot.    11/9/13
I like most marine hobbyists have battled Whitespot as far from Australia to the UK.
<... and points in-between>
 Sure accurate doses of Copper are effective but in an invert or mixed tank a no go and can leach back into the tank after months from rocks etc and turns clear silicon seals blue etc.
<Mmm, not the last unless really treated...>
 I think I have found a possible cure. I have read UV can control
<Not; helps, but does not control. See WWM re>
 Whitespot but then I thought if you can have the correct wavelength, correct water speed through the unit (too fast and not enough exposure to sterilise the Whitespot) and correct turnover of entire tank volume via good all round water circulation and a short time interval for entire tank water to pass through the UV unit you should stand a chance. My UV unit
turns the whole tank volume over about every 20 min.s. I had many problems with Whitespot over the years, anyway I had run Copper in my tank and taken it out and purchased a SunSun JUP01 (around $30) and stocked my tank, all fish pH/temp adjusted freshwater dipped
<Also REALLY helps>

and never had any problems with Whitespot for about a year. I had not previously freshwater dipped all new arrivals so was not sure which is effective the dip or UV.
<I am VERY sure>
Well I recently added some inverts (which cannot be freshwater dipped) and a small Regal Tang, a well known Whitespot magnet and you guessed it - about two days later the Regal had Whitespot. I had been turning my water pump off at night as it is noisy when sleeping but leaving the UV on. I then decided to keep the pump 24 hours and now there is not a Whitespot in sight.
<Uhh, how much time has gone by? May well just be "cycling off" the fish host/s>
Goodbye Whitespot will not miss you. I am therefore concluding that if the water movement in the whole tank is enough so that near to or all water can be captured by the UV steriliser it is effective in early stages of Whitespot. Not a spot in sight. I write this to help fellow fish keepers as I do believe that no matter what size of the tank if you get the balance correct you are going to win, but possibly only in the early stages of Whitespot.
Kind regards,
<Thank you for sharing. And do keep your eyes open. Bob Fenner>

I have an ick outbreak in my main tank. Reading     10/21/13
 I am planning on taking out the sand and dosing the tank with Cupramine.
There will not be any sand or live rock in the aquarium only store bought things like castles, fake rocks and such.
<... these may well absorb the copper... faster than usual precipitation from components of the salt mix... You should check twice or more frequently per day re concentration>
 My hospital tank is only 20 gallons and I couldn't put all my fish in that.

I could take all of the sand out of my 90g tank and put the fish in it with new water but to me I would be doing the same thing. I only have fish with no inverts.
<... where is this going?>

If I take out the sand and store it in buckets for a month or more would the ick die of in it or would it be better to leave the sand in the tank to be treated as well. Also should I leave the protein skimmer on during the treatment of the tank? Again I will be dosing with Cupramine.
<... I think you should (quickly) go to WWM, read re Cryptocaryon and your treatment options. You don't "read" as being ready here. Bob Fenner>
RE: ?    10/21/13
My plan is to dose my 125 gallon tank with Cupramine.

<... one route to go... Have you investigated Quinine compounds? Whether to treat your infested system at all?>
 I have read that the sand bed can soak up the copper quite a bit,
<... oh yes>
 that is why I was thinking of taking the sand out.

My 20 gallon hospital tank to me is to small to house a dozen fish which includes 3 rather large fish ( 7' Hippo tang, 7' Foxface and 6' Angelfish) for two or three weeks, that is why I wanted to dose the 125g. I have a copper test kit to check for copper levels in the tank. I have read your article on ick. I am simply trying to make a plan for treating this and I wanted your input as to my plan or what you think I should do.
<I think you should keep reading... actually I know (have high confidence) that you should>>

I have not had ick in my tanks for at least 6 years and the only thing I can remember about the last time was I bought a bottle of copper solution and followed the instructions. I have read about Hypo salinity and raising the temperature in the tank as well.
<Ah, good>
I cannot find anything on protein skimmers whether it makes a difference or not to have them on.
<Does... do also remove copper...>
I know I am supposed to take out anything with carbon in it when dosing with Cupramine.
I didn't finish writing what I should have about my 90 gallon. I meant to say I could use it to treat the fish and just let my main tank sit for a month or two to try and let all the ick die out on its own without treating the tank with copper.
<Ah yes; glad to see/read some of your thought processes. BobF>
RE: ?

I have not investigated Quinine compounds. I will Google and read about them but please tell me about them if you think it will help. Are you saying not to even bother treating the system at all and just let nature take its course? I do have a ultra violet clarifier to use as well that I have hooked up to the system now.
RE:    10/21/13

Also I am leaving at 6am for Norfolk, VA.  I am towing a ship down to Texas so I wont be home for three weeks. I am going to have to leave instructions to my wife on what to do. If you can simplify instructions to me as in 1,2,3 or a,b,c  that will really help otherwise all I have to go on is what I read on the bottle of Cupramine. Thanks a bunch!
<.... >
RE: Not reading     10/21/13

I guess you are telling me to go by the instructions on the bottle of Cupramine then. I don't understand what <.....> means.
<Read... at least what it is that we do, are at WWM>

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