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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 36

Related Articles: Marine Ich: Fighting The War On Two Fronts, Cryptocaryoniasis, Parasitic DiseaseQuarantine, Quarantine of Marine Fishes

Related FAQs: Best on Crypt, Crypt 1, Crypt 2, Crypt 3, Crypt 4, Crypt 5, Crypt 6, Crypt 7, Crypt 8, Crypt FAQs 9, Crypt FAQs 10, Crypt FAQs 11, Crypt FAQs 12, Crypt FAQs 13, Crypt FAQs 14, Crypt FAQs 15, Crypt FAQs 16, Crypt FAQs 17, Crypt FAQs 18, Crypt FAQs 19, Crypt FAQs 20, Crypt FAQs 21, Crypt FAQs 22, Crypt FAQs 23, Crypt FAQs 24, Crypt FAQs 25, Crypt FAQs 26, Crypt FAQs 27 Crypt 28, Crypt 29, Crypt 30, Crypt 31Crypt 32, Crypt 33, Crypt 34, Crypt 35, Crypt 37, Crypt 38, & FAQs on Crypt: Identification, Prevention, "Causes", Phony Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,  Products That Work By Name: Free Copper/Cupric Ion Compounds (e.g. SeaCure), Chelated Coppers (e.g. Copper Power, ), Formalin Containing: (e.g. Quick Cure),  About: Hyposalinity & Ich, Treating for Crypt & Sensitive Fishes:  By Fish Group: Sharks/Rays, Morays and other Eels, Mandarins/Blennies/Gobies, Wrasses, Angels and ButterflyfishesTangs/Rabbitfishes, Puffers & Kin...  &  Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks, Marine Velvet Disease, Biological Cleaners, Treating Parasitic Disease, Using Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease,

Crypt, Angel...       10/6/19
Good afternoon,
I have a 3 spot angel in a 70g QT that had a mild case of crypt successfully treated with Cupramine . Eating pellets ( New Life Spectrum ) and anything frozen . Unfortunately after copper treatment developed cloudy eyes.
<Can happen>
Left greater than right . I am feeding pellets soaked in kanamycin , Nitrofurantoin , and metronidazole ( seachem). Doing better after 3 days .
Water changes daily . Nitrates 10. Anything else to recommend ?
<Mmm; not at this juncture. Have you lowered spg?>
I know this genus , species is tough to keep but this fish has been exceptional and do not want to lose him/ her ?
Thank you, Jimmy
<DO please search, read on WWM re Pomacanthids, marine angelfishes and copper use; other treatments for Cryptocaryon. Bob Fenner>
re:      10/6/19

Thank you , I am lowering the sg . I know this is a tough genus / species to keep . Thx, Jimmy
<Cheers, BobF>
Re: 3 spot angel, Crypt       10/9/19

Bob, Just a follow-up .
Despite the cloudy eye problem , the 3 spot angel has been feeding aggressively and readily taking antibiotic infused pellets .
<Ah, tres bien>
Spg was lowered to 1.015 . Eyes improved dramatically but not yet healed.
<This takes time... >
Flashing against objects has decreased Will give the medicated food for a total of 7 days . This fish has a much more robust constitution / health than is generally experienced in the hobby. Thanks, Jimmy
<Cheers, BobF>

What looks like the crypt but is not?      10/3/19
Good day everyone,
Love this sight, always have, you all do a splendid job here.
<Ah, thank you for your kind, encouraging words>
My heart was on the floor this morning when I saw my purple tang and regal tang covered in what appears to be Cryptocaryon irritans at first glance but is clearly different on a more closer inspection.
<Mmm; well, there are other parasites, even "just congealed body mucus" that may appear as such. The only definitive means of telling what is what is to sample, examine with a microscope; as gone over on WWM and most fish disease tomes>
210 gallon tank FWLR, stocked with angels and tangs.
Ammonia 0 of course
Nitrite 0, nitrate 12, phosphate 0.2
We run carbon, GFO, employ NOPOX and change our socks every other day. This tank was established from zero-the long hard way of bleached rocks and new equipment with a 2 month cycle.
We quarantine each fish as we have been rung through twice before.
<Hard to exclude the principal pathogens, but it reads that you've done your best to>
We did just add 4 new fish in the span of 3 months, all quarantined.
My question is what disease is similar looking to ich? And what can we do about it?
<I WOULD sample and examine as stated; in the meanwhile (ASAP) likely drop (slowly, a few hundredths per day) specific gravity... begin reading re your options (copper, anti-malarials...) on WWM:
and the linked files above>
Many thanks,
<Do please keep me/us informed of continuing developments, your actions, thoughts. Bob Fenner>
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?        10/4/19

Dear Mr. Fenner,
What an honor to receive an email from you having had read SO many of your posts during research and hard times.
I failed to mention that we have been ich free for about 1 1/2 years, I am quite sure the we nuked the horrendous, dreadful mofo of a parasite...(throat clear)...
<Ah yes... very hard to eliminate, exclude from captive systems>
A skin smear is near impossible. And the only fish vet in the surrounding area will not come to the house though I offered extra payment.
<Easy enough to do by oneself; really>
The last time we went through this I ordered from Fishman Chemicals $350 worth of “pure” CP from America to Canada. It was a disaster. It was not effective and cost me the lives of my beloved fish. I have used CP before that a courteous and sympathetic LFS guy gave to me as a favor and it did wonders. But that is not available any longer, he may have got in trouble for giving it to me. I called every pharmacy in town, I couldn’t get it except from Fishman. We all paid a heavy price with lives and monetarily.
I think I will start with Cupramine, just dose the whole tank. Thoughts??
<A worthy product... will state for others/browsers; WITH daily monitoring, testing for free copper presence, cessation of chemical filtrant use, possibly turning down, off skimming or running on a punctuated basis (to retain more copper)>
Does the skimmer matter?
<Oh, yes>
Nopox with Cupramine? Does anyone have experience??
<In looking for the MSDS of this Red Sea product, I found this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/carbon-dosing-and-or-macroalgae-right-for-me.426442/
I suspect the totality of the ingredients include water and No3-po4-X, it has acetic acid, ethanol, and methanol. I would hold off (not use) this or other treatments during the Cupramine administration.
Bob Fenner>

Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?        10/4/19
Many thanks Mr. Fenner,
<Ms. Monroy>
I shall indeed keep you posted. Ever thank you for your hasty reply to me.
<Ah, I thank you. BobF>
Kind Regards,
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?        10/4/19

Ummm, even if a skin smear is possible and it shows what parasite it is, would the treatment still be Cupramine? If not copper then what?!
<I am (yes, olde) still a huge fan of (appropriate) use of copper/compounds. Have used actually hundreds of gallons (by four one-gallon packs) over decades time. VERY effective used correctly. B>

Debate solving. Crypt Cu exposure sensitivity      6/25/19
Good evening Bob,
<Hey Bob>
I attended the reef a palooza show in New York (actually situated in NJ) , by to purchase anything but to gather some info and took first hand with the makers . (Or catchers if it’s pertaining to livestock)
I got into a friendly debate with two guys with tables adjacent to each other, one being an sps stick guy, another fish importer.
Discussing the usage of copper based medications, and length of time.
<A big topic; some decidedly divisive opinions and MUCH science here>
One thing they did agree on, like the literature says, is it kills the “free swimming stages” . But we couldn’t come to a consensus on what exactly the free swimming stage is.
<Temperature dependent, and again, scientifically described....>
We know when it’s on the fish, it’s not touchable , protected in the fishes body. We know it’s protected when it is encysted in the bottom , or in the substrate, waiting to hatch out.
<Yes; and can remain encysted at times for months>
We know the copper can kill during that phase when they hatch out and have to find a host.
<Mmm; not during encystment as far as I'm aware, unless Cu++ levels are VERY high>
But what about the time from when they “fall” off the fish, and have to swim to the bottom and begin encysting?
<THIS and when they're swarming, looking for a host IS the copper sensitive intervals>
During that time when they are going from the fish to the substrate, are they prone to or protected by copper at this time?
Thanks as always and appreciate your thoughts .
<Glad to proffer them. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Debate solving      6/27/19
Hey bob,
But what about the time from when they “fall” off the fish, and have to swim to the bottom and begin encysting?
<THIS and when they're swarming, looking for a host IS the copper sensitive intervals>
During that time when they are going from the fish to the substrate, are they prone to or protected by copper at this time?
Thanks as always and appreciate your thoughts .
<Glad to proffer them. Cheers, BobF>
This here answers my question thank you. The copper in the water, kills the ich , when it leaves fish to swim and find a suitable place to encyst itself, and then again when it hatches to go and find a host. It can’t kill the stages which are embedded on the fish, and when they are encysted waiting to hatch.
So in theory (from that) if you add a fish to a tank, with already therapeutic levels of copper, assuming the can stay ON the fish for 3- 7 days MAX (let’s say 10 in case not all of them want to play by the rules), then the copper can be removed since any ich that would have come off the new fish, would have had to begin to swim down and reproduce, however the copper would have killed them during there voyage from the fish to the ground .
<Theoretically, yes. The real issue is providing a steady (therapeutic level) of free copper at all times. Cu++ falls out of solution in alkaline settings like seawater; hence the use of "attached molecules" to keep it (copper) around longer. Even in systems w/o carbonate substrate/s, their presence as components of seawater salts involves having to check and re-add some copper solution every several hours. One HAS to have an appropriate test kit (per the type of copper solution being used) and checking, topping off every 12 hours or so. IF carbonaceous gravel, skeletons are present, this checking must be done more frequently still>
If true , this is invaluable, since I’ve noticed some fish can’t get passed the 2-3 week mark in copper. However if you add them into it, keeping them in just long enough until the app the ich leaves the fish to reproduce, (10 days playing it safe) then the recommended 30 days could be avoided.
<In general, yes. What happens is that folks make errors, adding other fish livestock, using contaminated catch gear...>
Thanks again for your help, Bob. Much of the literature speaks to it eradicating the theronts that hatch and find a host, but don’t mention the Protomonts leave fish and go bury themselves. This is the difference of using copper 10 days , vs. 30, which to me, is golden. Trying to use the minimal amount of toxicity as possible.
<Ah yes; I do agree>
Hoping next year they get you to speak at reef a palooza, this year Julian sprung was their, much rather have Fenner myself .
Thanks, Bobby
<Cheers mate, >
Re: Debate solving      6/27/19
Thanks again, bob. There is so much ill informed information out there people read and take as science. The majority of the message boards lead others to believe only the free swimming stage (leaving the cyst and finding the fish) is the only part of the life cycle they can be killed with meds.
I added my last 3 fish Saturday, already in 2.0 copper power. (I do check with Hanna meter every other day, level doesn’t fluctuate) I will wait 10 days, maybe 14 depending how brave I am, then begin removing copper. This way they will have been in high copper from the time they entered the tank, for at least 10 days after to kill all that could have come off while in there .
Thanks again. You taught me along time ago the importance of being open minded and read read and read some more. Even after all of that, there’s times when there is no clear answer, and it begs the question, is their ever really a clear answer carved in stone to be found. Cheers, Bobby
<Thank you for sharing. BobF>

Marine Ick question      4/23/19
I am a reef tank newbie.
<Hey newbie! >
I don't have any coral yet but already have a disease infestation.
I have a 69 gallon red sea with 20 gallon sump that includes a protein skimmer.
<Can you provide more info of your water parameters?... ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, Ph.>
I also have a phosphate reactor and a uv sterilizer. I also just ordered and have received a chiller but not
connected it yet. My temp at one time with heater on was 83.5 (even though it was set to 77) so I turned the heater down and the temp was still high so I turned it off altogether but temp is still about 81.
<You need to install the chiller; room temp seems to be too high.>
As far as fish goes, I have 3 clown gobies, 2 clownfish, 1 white tail tang, and 1 purple and yellow wrasse. The tang is rather large about 5 inches.
<Tang needs more space>
All of which are eating great. I also have about 2 inches of sand and a clean up crew:
3 turbo snails, some dwarf hermits and two squat lobsters. The guy who is maintaining my tank told me to use Metroplex in the food and in the water (following directions on the bottle).
<Metro is not effective on curing ich, I ‘d definitely use copper on a separate tank>
Too<To> me that sounds a little to <too> much so I have just been doing the water but recently started to do the food too as well. I've been dosing my tank ever other day now for 1 1/2 weeks.
Is this folly?
<not folly but useless and probably stressful for fish>
I have read some of your articles and quarantining <quarantining> is a big topic. I do have a 10 qt tank that has sand in it. Recently a new fish died in it (flame wrasse ��). In your guys opinion, what should I do at this point for my main tank? My tank man is wanting to use Kick Ick if Metroplex does not work but I think I read in your articles that this is bunk.
<As stated, I'd use copper >
Is sand a bad thing in a qt tank?
<Quarantine tanks must have a bare bottom, with just a few pvc pipe pieces for fish to hide>
Does my current qt tank need to be dumped and disinfected? If so, how do I disinfect it? Do I need to get a larger qt tank?
< I´d get a larger QT tank (20+ gallons)... please do read the following link and related ones: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm
Thank you in advance for your help.
<You're welcome, Dianne. Wil.>
Re: Marine Ick question      4/24/19

Can I ask who you are and your credentials?
<Sure, I am Wilberth Gamboa at your service, see Current Crew Bios>
I'm not too familiar with WetWebMedia. This is so I can tell my tank guy who is more of a coral man not a fish man.
Does a q tank need to be fully cycled before I put the fish in?
<You should use water from the display tank, do regular water changes and test ammonia and nitrites daily>
How long should I keep them all in there and how often to dose?
<4 weeks should suffice>
What product do you recommend?
<I have used Seachem’s Cupramine over the years with excellent results>
As far as my tank parameters they are good, no ammonia, nitrates are good and so is Nitrite and ph.
<If possible send exact test readings, “good” is relative.>
<Cheers. Wil. >
Re: Marine Ick question      4/24/19

<Dianne... you'd do well to simply search, read the archives/WWM... The search tool; on every page. Bob Fenner>
How long should I wait before I put the fish in my main tank?
I've heard it takes 6 weeks before the ick is completely gone.
I thought Copper was harmful to the fish?
I could not find your bio, could you give me a little one?
Re: Marine Ick question      4/24/19

How long should I wait before I put the fish in my main tank?
I've heard it takes 6 weeks before the ick is completely gone.
<Personally I try to use it no more than 4 weeks>
I thought Copper was harmful to the fish?
<It is, so it should be used with caution, using a test kit to avoid overdosing, Please read where you were referred to.>
I could not find your bio, could you give me a little one?
<Use the search tool on WetWebMedia... is not that hard. Wil>
<<Well done Wil... This activity DOES take patience. BobF>>

Yellow Eyed tang... Adventures in SW Fish Disease, Learning        2/17/19
This fish was gorgeous when I bought it along with a Powder Brown Tang.
<This last species is often very touchy... susceptible to disease, loss>
Both were drip acclimated over time to my 125 that has A Fox face about 4'' long, and three fish about 2.5" Mocha clown, Huma, niger and 8 line wrasse.
I run two canisters FX6 and middle line Forza with UV. Use an Orbit light system on a timer, water PH, Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, Phosphates look good, Salinity is 1.026 temp stays about 72. My Brown died after some white spots.
<Umm; your system is infested; still; likely w/ Cryptocaryon; possibly other pathogen/s>

I had A Mocha clown that got white spots and died.
<... "got">

My Yellow eye has white spots, splotches and large lips. It swims fine and appears to eat but it is looking thin. The other fish are clear of any issue.
I am at a loss.

Please respond using XXXX
<Where to start... Did you quarantine this livestock, do any sort of preventative, dip/bath... protocol to exclude pathogens?
Mmm; how to "ramp up" your understanding quickly, easily?
Please start by reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
Then on to this: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
Next, ScottF's pc: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm
Do write back after, and make known if you are not at a loss.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Yellow Eyed tang. Disease Ed. if they read      2/18/19

I haven't moved any fish yet. I wasn't sure if it was stress related due to the larger Foxface who can be a big jerk. Thanks for info, I'll read it.
<Do so.

Hydrogen peroxide for Cryptocaryon?      01/17/19
Hi all,
Have you ever tried using sunrise and sunset doses of hydrogen peroxide to eliminate crypto?
<No... and would not recommend it. Hydrogen peroxide is a powerful oxidizer. It could potentially kill the parasite at certain stages of its life cycle, and it might work for killing the parasite on the fish.
However, you would need to apply this treatment outside the main system and would be completely guessing at the dose since, to my knowledge, no one has conducted a thorough study to establish an effective non-lethal dosing schedule. Thus, I would advise you to stick with the tried and true method
of putting all the fish in a QT tank (with copper and/or reduced salinity) for 6-8 weeks. See here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm>
Matt Parsons
Re: Hydrogen peroxide      01/17/19

Good afternoon Bob. I just have a follow up question regarding dosing hydrogen peroxide. In our earlier messages you said to monitor my ORP while dosing.
<Yes; can drop immediately and dangerously low>
What I am finding is that the HP almost immediately shaves 80-100 points off my ORP reading. I normally run at about 360-380 ORP and within minutes after dosing HP it drops to 300-280. It takes about 6 hours to climb back up to the 360-380 range. What exactly am I looking for with the ORP while dosing HP?
<This exactly. I would NOT have ORP drop more than 100 units (micro-siemens/cm.) per dose>
Thank you,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Hydrogen peroxide for Cryptocaryon?      01/17/19

Yes I'm talking about in quarantine. I have a 7 tank quarantine system to treat all fish. All bare bottom, PVC pipe, separate filtration each, etc.
<Sounds great.>
I do this for a living.
<Ah, then I expect you know what you're doing.>
I usually use copper. I started experimenting with reef medic by PolypLab which is a peroxide salt based treatment, and it did eliminate most cases of crypto in my QTs over the past 10 months.
<Would you mind elaborating on that? When you say "over the past 10 months," does that mean it took 10 months for the Ick to clear? Or are you simply saying that you've been using PolypLab, as needed, for 10 months now? Also, did you use the PolypLab alone? (i.e. without hyposalinity or copper?) If you used the PolypLab in addition to hyposalinity and/or copper, how can you be sure it made a difference? Did the parasite clear faster? These are not rhetorical questions. I am curious to know.>
I could set up a bubble magus dosing pump to deliver the peroxide at the time of excystment before dawn. The oxidising effect could eliminate the swimming stages before they could reinfection the fish.
<Interesting idea! Now, if only you had a device and software capable of automated biological image analysis to evaluate the tomite population in treated vs. untreated QT tanks and in each over time. Do you happen to have any friends studying aquaculture technology at a university?>
<Cheers, SaraL.>
Re: Hydrogen peroxide for Cryptocaryon?      01/17/19

I used the PolypLab reef medic without any hyposalinity or any other methods. I do love hyposalinity, but I have found it does not give a 100% cure. It is very positive for the health of the fish, and will eliminate
visible traces of the protozoan, but it's just treated as a stall tactic now.
I used the PolypLab on 9 groups of fish in quarantine over the past 10 months. In 7 cases, I had complete elimination of the disease and the fish moved onto their display tanks with no additional sign of recurrence of the disease.
<The trouble with any observational data involving treatments for this parasite is that fish can, and often do, recover/resist infection all on their own when provided a low-stress environment for a sufficient period of time. Honestly, I personally believe that wherever there are fish, there is Cryptocaryon irritans. It's simply a matter of the relative strength/health of the fish vs. the parasite. All the things we do to manage this problem are, in essence, methods for weakening the parasite and strengthening the fish.>
Unfortunately this morning, I visited a 6 month old display tank, where all fish were treated 2x per day by me with PolypLab for a minimum of 4 weeks in quarantine, and I see the telltale signs of crypto on a powder blue and an Emperor angel which means the PolypLab failed. I use a flashlight at night to check for signs of the disease religiously, and all fish that went into that tank were clear.
<It happens - again, I do believe this parasite is virtually ubiquitous.>
Also- I was given a batch of fish (2 clowns, 1 coral beauty angel, 1 bristle tail file, 1 cardinal, 1 ytang) that were completely healthy.
<Or seemed so>
They went into quarantine, and we're dosed with PolypLab 2x daily (due to my abundance of caution). And amazingly, after 2 weeks with no symptoms, one morning the clowns were covered in white frost, and the next day the yt died. Copper stopped it within a day and rest of fish are healthy.
<Good to know you were able to save the rest.>
So PolypLab is out and I'm back to copper, but I keep wanting to find something potentially less toxic.
<I highly recommend adding a canister filter with a micro filter and diatom powder to the QT tanks. Diatom powder can/does filter out the swimming stage of the parasite. Obviously, it's not going to catch every last one of them, but if you really don't want to use copper, diatom powder + hypo-salinity should do the trick.>
Re: Hydrogen peroxide for Cryptocaryon?      01/17/19

I half agree with you on the ubiquity of crypto, and I half disagree. And I disagree because of my experience with Acanthurus surgeonfishes.
<Well, perhaps I should have qualified... I believe the parasite, in some stage or another, and to some degree or another, is present in something like 98-99% of systems with fish.>
I have kept several powder blues and Achilles tangs in tanks with zero symptoms for years, however over the long term, it's very hard to maintain that level of perfection. All of those fish are currently showing spots, but it's not currently dragging them down. In the case of my clients absolute diamond of an Achilles tang, we had it for over two years with zero spots. Last winter, a car plowed into a neighbour's business, and killed his power. Neighbor had a reef tank that had crypto infection 3 years earlier. All fish had been removed and treated, tank remained fallow for over 8 weeks. Fish back in, crypto never seen again.
<You tell an interesting tale - but "never seen again" doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there.>
Fast forward to car crash- I took all fish home for care during power outage. Neighbor and client took liverock from neighbours tank and placed directly into Achilles reef sump. Two weeks later Achilles showed spots that have been present ever since.
<Are you sure it's Cryptocaryon? I'll concede it's an intriguing/suspicious coincidence... but seems odd the fish would have it, uninterrupted, for so long.
Sara L.>
Re: Hydrogen peroxide for Cryptocaryon?      01/17/19

"if only you had a device and software capable of automated biological image analysis to evaluate the tomite population in treated vs. untreated QT tanks and in each over time. Do you happen to have any friends studying aquaculture technology at a university?"
I don't know anyone studying aquaculture anymore. I used to know people who knew people who were involved at UNH, but those days are long gone.
<Hmm, well, if you are super ambitious, you might make due with a centrifuge and a good microscope, count the tomites in a sample volume and do an estimation...>
I may mess around with this and try and come up with a protocol to control crypto with cheap, safe hydrogen peroxide.
I'll drop you a line if I get some good results.
<Please do. Oh, and please do also see BobF's remarks/response in the dailies today to another gentleman also asking about hydrogen peroxide. DO be sure to monitor ORP as you experiment! Also, again, I do suggest you try using a diatom filter - or just a canister filter with a micro filter and diatom powder. I used to work at a LFS and one of my jobs, every morning, was to change out the diatom in the canister filters on all the tanks with newly unpacked livestock. I tell you honestly, I don't recall that we ever had an issue with Ick that lasted more than a week.>
<And to you,
Matt Parsons
Re: Hydrogen peroxide for Cryptocaryon?      01/17/19

Yes the Achilles has had uninterrupted symptoms of crypto ever since. About 14 months now.
<Seems like a long time - I would have expected it to either get worse or go away. ::shrug::

Treating a new Porcupine Puffer with Ich; rdg., using WWM     10/8/18
Hi all,
I have a new 3 1/2 inch Porcupine Puffer in my 29 gal quarantine tank. I bought him from my friend who owns a local fish store, and the fish had been there for about 3 weeks and was eating well. He's been in my QT tank for about 4 days now, is eating fairly well (clams on the half shell and spirulina brine shrimp thus far), but has come down with a bad case of marine white spot disease (Crypt, Ich, etc).
Being a scaleless fish, I'm wondering if Cupramine would be too harsh to treat the Ich, even at half a dose (which is the min recommended therapeutic level for treatment by the manufacturer).
<This is one of the better copper-based medications. Persistent, consistent in concentration>
Freshwater dips won't be effective if the fish is put back into QT with Ich still in the system.
<Correct; the fish would have to be serially moved to a sterilized system>
Would you use a half dose of copper and see how the fish responds?
<Mmm; no; only a physiological dose will work>
Would a full dose spread over 48 hours likely kill the puffer?
<Highly unlikely... if the fish is healthy otherwise>
Any help you could provide would be appreciated.
<DO read on WWM re treating Diodontids, puffers for Crypt, the use of chelated copper products. Bob Fenner>

Ick Question-Fallow Tank       9/14/18
Good Evening Bob and Squad!
<Hey Anik>
Had a question for you regarding controlling Ick vs. eradicating Ick. I currently have a 100G mixed Reef that’s been up and running for over two years. My current roster of fish is as follows;
Melanurus Wrasse
Yellow “Coris” Wrasse (Halichoeres chrysus)
Yellow Flanked Fairy Wrasse
Male Lyretail Anthias
2x Ocellaris clowns
Blonde Naso Tang
Flame Angel
<The Naso will appreciate/need larger quarters in time>
I follow a pretty tight Quarantine procedure which includes a long observation period to get the fish settled and fat, then followed by Prazi and Cupramine and observation again. The only time I didn’t follow this was when I introduced a mandarin, to help control copepods (before the wrasses)....But, some how when I introduced the fairy wrasse to the display tank about three months ago, the melanurus chased him around for a bit....and the fairy showed white spots. I kept my parameters stable and the maintenance up hoping it would pass and it did. The wrasses are all a happy team now and no Ick to be seen. But I know it’s there...must have been brought in by the mandarin.
<Actually; will remark that most all hobby systems have resident Crypt populations. Something like E. coli, it more/less comes with marine/reef fishes... expressing itself clinically when conditions favor it more than its hosts>
Right now, I have three additional wrasses in quarantine (I love wrasses and I know it can be risky having a lot of them!) and was thinking before introducing them into the display, should I move all the current fish out and run my display tank fallow for 72 days to be sure the Ick is gone?
<Mmm; I would not. Too stressful for them. Better to set upon a path of providing optimal, stable conditions for all; utilizing pH adjusted freshwater baths enroute of adding new fishes>
I have two separate quarantine tanks that are 60 Gallons plus, so it would be possible...but is it worth it in your opinion? I’m worried about stressing out the display tank fish who are all living happily right now.
If it’s true Ick inbreeds itself to death in 11 months, and I don’t introduce any new strains of Ick for it to continue to multiply (only introduce quarantined fish) then will I be okay to assume that the Ick will inbreed itself out from 11months after I introduced the mandarin (patient zero)?
<I don't subscribe to Crypt "breeding itself out"; have seen too many proofs to the contrary>
Noting that I am not planning to add any more fish after the three new wrasses.
Sorry for the long winded question; just wanted your thoughts on how I should plan my next steps.
Thanks Team!
<You have mine! Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: Ick Question-Fallow Tank       9/16/18

Again, thank you Bob for sparing some of your vast knowledge!
<Always glad to share what little facts, methods, attitudes, science I'm aware of>
Yes, the Naso will need some space later on, luckily he is only about 2.5 inches right now...I’ll be upgrading at some point.
<Ah good>
Wow, so most home aquaria have crypto?! Good to know. Maybe before upgrading when I have to move the fish anyways, I can plan to do a Cupramine treatment on the full roster. I’d really love to be the exception to the rule and have a full crypto free aquarium.
<There are such things as SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) systems; but they are rare, mainly intensive aquaculture settings>
I’ll head your advice and not move the fish family at this time and focus on continuing to treat/QT the new comers including new corals/inverts.
Thanks Again Bob!
<Welcome Anik. BobF>

ICH Question     8/13/18
<Hey Brent>
I had a 187 gallon set up in my basement that developed a major leak while I was away for work.
I took everything apart and found 4 large cracks in my sump. I lost all my fish and corals... was not a good day.
So, i set up my 40 gallon breeder quarantine tank as my new temporary main display while I wait to fire up the big tank again... I’m not sure when that’s going to happen.
I’ve had the 40 gallon up and running since early March. I added fish after cycle with out quarantine. I added a Perc clown, royal Gramma, azure damsel fish, flame angel and juvenile yellow tang. I lost the Gramma and the clown to ich in may... the 3 remaining fish did have white spots on them but they have been clean and looking very healthy since the white spots left them 3 months ago...
<Mmm; well; I should/will mention that the Ich/Crypt is still present. In fact, there are latent (waiting) infestations of this Protozoan in most all captive systems>
the tank is in great balance with the 3 fish left. I am asking for advice on if I should add a six line wrasse and 2 pajama cardinal fish.
<Mmm... there is, make that are acclimation procedures that might "harden" the new fishes... ahead of their introduction, mixing here. I would wait till you have the old/er, larger system up, going, use the 40 for this process>
Is ich still present in my tank?
<Ah yes>
The new additions would not be quarantined... I know I’m rolling the dice but I am curious to hear your thoughts.
<During; a few weeks after the quarantine I'd be adding some of the 40 system water to the new QT system... too likely otherwise to trigger resurgence of the Crypt. And lastly; yes; there are such things as specific pathogen free settings.>
Thank you.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Ick (Crypt) Eradication      8/8/18
Hope all is well.
<Mostly; yes; thank you>
I am dealing with a rather persistent case of Ick. I have 4 quarantine tanks going with a total of 15 fish all of which were purchased from the same vendor. All fish have spots, flashing, etc. and is 99.9% Ick. All tanks were treated with copper at therapeutic dosages and removed at day 30. Within 1 week the Ick returns. I believe I am either dealing with a copper resistant strain or one whose life cycle is greater
than 30 days. Right now 2 of the tanks have Chloroquine phosphate and the other 2 are in hyposalinity until I figure out what the best course of action is.
<Good! This is what I would do; how low is your spg? I'd try 1.017 thereabout for now... and if this doesn't do it w/ the CP in a week, I'd drop the density to 1.010... Yes>
What would you recommend? I have already went through 2 30 day copper treatments which were unsuccessful. I am a bit hesitant to expose everyone to another round.
<I strongly concur. See my comments above. Clear? >
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ick Eradication         8/19/18

<Hey Eric>
Just an update on where things are. The fish in both tanks that are in straight hypo all look okay. The salinity is down to 1.009 and no more spots or flashing. My clownfish who is in the 10 gallon tank at 1.020 and Chloroquine appears well also. The 55 gallon at 1.020 and Chloroquine is still battling this infestation. That tank has a lyretail Anthias, purple tang, green Chromis, Coris wrasse, and a kamohara blenny. Still a couple of spots but the Coris wrasse is doing a lot of head bobbing, shaking, and yawning. The other fish occasionally flash and only a few spots. I did a FW dip on the wrasse to make sure I wasn't missing a fluke infestation which didn't turn up anything. I think my next options here would be to just run that tank at pure hypo or use ionic copper instead of chelated.
Either way at the 3 week mark I am going to transfer all of these fish into a new sterile QT tank. That is if I can ever kill what is currently infecting them. Any other guidance or ideas?
<Do freshwater, pH adjusted dip/bath the fish in transit to the new treatment/QT>
Seems hypo works on whatever I am dealing with but I have a numerous hypo fails in the past and would hate to
put a sick fish back in the display tank after going through all this.
<Cheers mate. Anima bona fac; be of good life. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ick Eradication       8/20/18

<Hey Eric>
Just an update on where things are. The fish in both tanks that are in straight hypo all look okay. The salinity is down to 1.009 and no more spots or flashing. My clownfish who is in the 10 gallon tank at 1.020 and Chloroquine appears well also. The 55 gallon at 1.020 and Chloroquine is still battling this infestation. That tank has a lyretail Anthias, purple tang, green Chromis, Coris wrasse, and a kamohara blenny. Still a couple of spots but the Coris wrasse is doing a lot of head bobbing, shaking, and yawning. The other fish occasionally flash and only a few spots. I did a FW dip on the wrasse to make sure I wasnt missing a fluke infestation which didn't turn up anything. I think my next options here would be to just run that tank at pure hypo or use ionic copper instead of chelated.
Either way
at the 3 week mark I am going to transfer all of these fish into a new
sterile QT tank. That is if I can ever kill what is currently infecting
them. Any other guidance or ideas?
<Do freshwater, pH adjusted dip/bath the fish in transit to the new
Seems hypo works on whatever I am dealing with but I have a numerous hypo fails in the past and would hate to put a sick fish back in the display tank after going through all this.
<Cheers mate. Anima bona fac; be of good life. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ick Eradication       8/20/18

Thanks Bob and last question. In regards to the clownfish it is getting the same treatment as my other fish. Is it possible for the CP to work in one tank and not the other?
<Yes it is; assuredly. There are "other mitigating factors" that appear to "use up" the CP or not>
Not sure if I should take further action on the clownfish or assume treatment was successful since it is not displaying any symptoms.
<I'd be wary of further treatment. Clownfish/es and others that live in close contact w/ invertebrates are typically more sensitive to such. Better to leave it at high spg, rely on dips/baths to eradicate the Crypt. Bob Fenner>

Ich; Crypt in a 750 gal. reef      5/3/18
Hey Bob, good morning.
So as luck would have it, my 750 has developed ich. I haven’t had to deal with this crap for close to 8 years. My tank is loaded with coral so treating the display isn’t an option and I have close to 40 fish and 400 pounds of LR so netting the fish out is also not an option.
I started them on DR Gs parasitic food,
<http://www.drgsmarineaquaculture.com/anti-parasitic-caviar-detail.cfm,  CP>
raised the temp and bought 5 cleaner shrimp. I also just ordered a new bulb for my sterilizer
<UV speeds up the decay of Chloroquine phosphate>

and should have it running in a day or 2. Even though the fish are still eating, I've lost 4 of them. Is there anything else I can be doing to get this under control?
<... Plan B... removing the fish livestock to where spg can be manipulated, allowing the 750 to go fallow... Otherwise... hoping the remaining fish livestock will develop resistance, immunity... Trouble introducing new fish/es... NEED to be thoroughly acclimated, conditioned to the system, including water changes from the main to Quarantine system/s>
I’m also running ozone although I realize it doesn’t do much for ich.
As always, thank you
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich      5/3/18

Thanks Bob. The link you sent for the food is different from what I bought. The stuff I got is actually frozen Dr Gs food. Is the liquid form you sent better in your opinion?
<I don't know John. My guess/supposition is that the frozen format would retain CP potency. I did meet Dr. G years back giving a presentation (used to call pitches) at a S. Fla. hobbyist show. Seemed very nice, honest, competent folks/family. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich      5/3/18

Ahh. Ok. Thanks for the input. Hopefully it is as reef safe as they say it is. I have thousands in corals at risk if it isn’t.
<Do see WWM re CP, and for what you have invested... the 2d ed. of Ed Noga... Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment. B>
Question. More re Crypt in a 750 gal. reef      5/4/18

Good morning Bob,
<Good morrow to you John>
I have been wondering something that maybe you can answer. It’s about ich. So if ich primarily effects fish when they get stressed and their immune system takes a hit, why is it that the whole tank becomes infested?
<There is more to such infestations. Apparently there are degrees of "hyperinfectivity"...
some "pumped up" strains, populations (perhaps species) of Cryptocaryon, REALLY causing more havoc once their daughter colonies ramp up >
If a fish with ich is introduced into a healthy thriving tank with all health fish, why isn’t the ich isolated to just the stressed fish?
<Mmm, not the "nature" of the Protozoan. It's swarming stages are "forever" seeking out host/s... in the wild, diluted by huge volume of space, pushed off the reef into deeper water. In captive, recirculated systems there is a "high target zone" throughout the tank>
I’m thinking in terms like this... if a fish recovers from ich it’s because their immune system beefed up and fought it off. But.... if a fish is already healthy, why do they become infected in the first place?
<Matters of titers against specific "types" of the parasite is my guess. Akin to you, I gaining resistance to particular "strains" of microbial diseases through exposure, but not to all "types">
My livestock was incredibly healthy in my 750 and I obviously added something in the last couple weeks that introduced ich in the system. Why were my healthy fish infected?
<As stated>
Thank you?
<I so wish we could go back in time and discuss, have a collective understanding of a protocol for diminishing introduction... improving the health of to-be introduced new livestock. Institutions like public aquariums, commercial aquaculture.... are VERY careful to acclimate, isolate, quarantine ALL newcomers for these dual purposes. Have you decided to drain the tank, remove the remaining fishes? Bob Fenner>
Re: question, 750 gal. reef, Crypt       5/5/18

Thanks Bob. I haven’t reached that stage of the game yet. I’m hoping it doesn’t come to that. This tank is massive and I just don’t know if the juice is worth the squeeze. My coral population is vast and the thought of pulling them all out leaves me feeling like I need to be medicated.
<I do understand. Have "been t/here" before John. Steady on. B>
long term. Infested SW systems      5/17/18

Hey Bob, good morning.
<Hi John>
This question is regarding marine velvet. My 750 got infected with it a few weeks back and devastated my fish population.
<I def. recall>
I have about 10 out of 30 remaining. About 1/2 of the remaining fish must be immune because they haven’t shown any symptoms. The other half are touch and go.
<I see>
I’ve tried to trap them with no success and with thousands in corals I can’t treat the tank. The question is this. If some of these fish pull through and clear the infection, will I ever be able to add new fish to the system or will the parasite always be present even on the healthy fish?
<I hinted re this before... You will need, be best served to select more resistant species (not Powder Blue, Brown Tangs e.g.) from better source countries, AND harden them ahead of introduction. The short version of this last involves isolation/quarantine to assure initial health, AND a bit of acquired immunity imbued by slowly introducing water from the main/display into the new arrival tank. Some folks might suggest prophylactic treatment/s as well. The reality is that nearly all captive systems are infested w/ parasite fauna of various mix; with the other two "factors that determine livestock health" acting as more drivers of outbreak>
As always, thank you.
<Please read here re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: long term. SW Protozoan... 750        5/18/18

Ahh. That’s a good idea. I didn’t think about using some of the display water in the QT system. So if I am understanding you, with a low exposure they can build an immunity to it?
<Yes; there is such a phenomena as acquired immunity here>
I did end up putting a 30 gallon hospital tank together and added copper. Unfortunately like I said I can’t get any of them trapped. But I guess that for new additions it’s in place now.
Would it be counter productive to add copper AND diseased tank water to the QT tank with any new additions? The answer seems like an obvious “yes” to me but maybe I’m missing something?
<... I would, in order: 1) NOT treat the new fish if possible, to allow them time to adjust to collection, transport, handling. 2) A few weeks later, consider treating; perhaps not with copper compounds as these are debilitating; perhaps too much so. 3) A few weeks later, start adding, mixing water. PLEASE read where I've referred you>
Thanks Bob.
Re: long term       5/18/18

Thanks again Bob. I appreciate the time and patience.
<Welcome John. Oh how I wish at times for something like the "Vulcan mind-meld". Cheers, B>

Crypt....      2/7/18
Hi I read that you can help me im thinking we have Ick in our 125gal fowler tank a couple have already died I can't
<... can't>
get the fish out what do I do to treat the tank we only have live Rock, fish, sea hare, goby, lawnmower blenny turbo Snails, n and the little ones.
<.... Umm; need to start back a few steps; need more info. And there's not sufficient time to go back and forth. Let's have you start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and onto the linked files above... Formulate a plan (NOW) and act; ask questions if anything isn't clear.
Bob Fenner>

White Spot Margarita Cardinal   12/21/17
<8.5 megs of uncropped, blurry pix....>
Good Evening,
One of my cardinals developed these two white spots on the bottom half of its tail right at the edge. Does this look like Ick?
<Could be>
I originally thought it was sand but it hasn't moved all day. I got a few fish in quarantine
that I was going to add in the display but not sure if I should hold off.
I attached a few photos. Do you see the spots?
<Yeah; I see something>
<Re/Read WWM re Cryptocaryon... I wouldn't treat directly here of course; actually period; but instead do what you can do to optimize environment and nutrition. Bob Fenner>

Re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal     12/22/17
Thanks Bob. This morning only one of the spots are left. 24 hours for a spot dropping off is to quick for crypto, correct?
<It is not too quick... Most all marine fish containing systems have latent Cryptocaryon infestations... If you'd read. B>
re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal     12/22/17

Will do some more reading but I thought Ick spots would stay on fish for more than 24 hours.
<Usually Crypt does; but... the spots are not the organism...>
re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal     12/22/17

What should I do with my Anthias that are in QT? Wait a few weeks and then add to display?
<A choice you have to make... Is it more desirable to have these little basses more stressed in quarantine, or perhaps be exposed to possibly increasing Protozoan issue?>

Re: White Spot Margarita Cardinal    12/23/17
So here is the plan. I am going to grind up some of the Ick shield pellets with the CP and mix with their frozen food.
<Had a dream re your circumstances Eric (sigh, used to dream about women and money...); and I would do what you suggest AND not add the CP directly to water... Just in case. There are periodic reports of its toxicity>
My fish do not eat pellets so i am thinking this may work, unless the powder doesn't stick to the frozen food. I am going to treat the Anthias also like this so they have medication in there system and release into the display in a few days.
Sound like a good plan? Today is day three and the 1 spot remains on the fish. No new spots and nothing on the other fish at this point.
<Do you have an inexpensive, few hundred power microscope? I'd get and use one. Many "spots" are false flags; i.e., not indicative of pathogenic disease... Mostly mucus from this or that irritation, sand... Bob Fenner>

Salt Water Disaster Brooklynellosis? <More likely the big "C">     6/2/17
Love love love your site. Used it for years in freshwater tanks (I have been in hobby since 2005.)
Recently, in November of 2016, my husband and I decided to dip our toes into the kingdom of salt water.
Our first tank is a 60 gallon tank with a canister filter. We hope to upgrade within the next 12 months to 120 gallon.
<Yikes... Mmm; too small for a Powder Blue Tang or Emperor Angel>
Our set up was no live rock, coral, or anything, we started from scratch with fake coral and plain sand. Took almost 4 months to completely cycle (we eventually added two clowns and a school of Blue Chromis to finish
Tank has been doing well. Went through algae bloom after cycle and then all readings stabilized. We then made several mistakes.
Tank set up and water changes with tap water. But we had no adverse effects on our readings or livestock.
We purchased a Foxface Rabbitfish in March and he has been doing well.
Added two cleaner shrimp in April and a Power Blue Tang. Everyone was happy and healthy.
<This, PBT is extremely susceptible to Cryptocaryon; likely what this is here>
Added a juvenile Emperor Angel in beginning of May and he was amazing.
Added a Flame Angel two weeks ago and all was well.
We perform 10-15% water changes weekly depending on nitrate levels. We feed frozen (brine shrimp and Emerald) and NewLife Spectrum Algae Max rotating by hand. We also feed Sea Veggies on a clip daily.
Saturday, May 29, 2017, we did a 15% water change. Water was extremely cloudy.
<Yikes; whence forth the cloudiness?>
We had original carbon still in our canister and we were told by LFS that it really isn't necessary. Opened canister to retrieve since it had been in there since November and had leakage (lost 50% of tank water before it was corrected!!!)
Did another water change and all the debris in the canister backwashed into the tank to replace lost water when canister hose leaded/malfunctioned.
After 24 hours, water chemistry was: PH 8.3; temp 78; Nitrites 0; Ammonia .25; Nitrates less than 10 ppm.
However, fish became very stressed. Emperor showed immediate signs of what looked like Ick for a few hours but cleaner shrimp and time corrected problem.
Next day (Sunday) we lost Flame Angel.
Monday all other fish looked "ok" but not the best.
Water chemistry continued to show Ammonia .25 so Seachem Stability was added at loading dose per bottle LFS instructions.
Lost remaining Chromis.
Tuesday, water chemistry continued as above, all fish were nibbling, and hiding in tank.
Yesterday, Powder Blue Tang developed what looks like Brooklynellosis? (I have attached pic). He died last night.
<Almost assuredly Crypt>
This morning did fresh water dip on Emperor which revived him for a spell, then he died today.
One clown died today.
Invertebrates look unharmed. Foxface Rabbitfish shows signs of a few white bumps, but not covered like other fish.
On inside of my tank, on glass, is a swarm of organisms that look like tiny white rice granules....
In hindsight, we know our classic mistakes and have paid a very high and painful price.
However, I also should have listened to my gut as the Tang was exhibiting signs of infection and my research did not yield any response and we thought maybe just normal parasites that shrimp removed.. He was scraping
his side on objects and had white bumps that would come and go near his gills. I have attached pics.
Remaining in tank today are:
1 clown
1 Foxface Rabbitfish
2 Cleaner shrimp
1 hermit crab
Any help, suggestions, would be greatly appreciated.
<At this point, I'd do nothing... no treatment; just wait. Do NOT add any more livestock>

Water parameters this morning are: PH 8.3; Temp 78; Nitrites 0; Ammonia .25; Nitrates 10 ppm.
Also, can you recommend a few good books on fish health, disease, etc that may help educate us moving forward? we have Bob's The Conscientious Marine Aquarist and another salt water book but these are mostly with generalized set up and stocking.
<I like Jay Hemdal's "Diseases of Marine Fishes" as a recent, easy to understand, straight-forward guide here>
Needless to say we are devastated. We feel very sad at the agony and loss of our fish and all our hard work in vain.
<I do understand. Better for you to read/study for now; develop a routine/S.O.P. for selecting, isolating/quarantining new livestock...
Putting together a hardier assemblage going forward>
Thank you.
Cori Cassady
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Marine Ick Questions      5/23/17
Good Evening,
Got a quick Ick question?
<You do?>
Typically once Ick, white spot, shows on a fish how long does it typically stay visible until it drops off?
<Depending on temperature mainly, 3-4 days; can be longer... up to 9 days>
I have a Firefish that for the last 3 days has had a single spot on each fin.
<Mmm; only two spots... not likely Crypt>
Each spot only stays on the fin for less than a day before disappearing. I am trying to determine if it's sand stuck to the fish since it does have it's cave in the sand bed or something else.
<Again; this is not likely Ich>
Right before this started I added a couple glass cardinals, a dispar Anthias, and a flasher wrasse. The fish were quarantined but even with timing it would be impossible for it to have come from one of those fish because of the Ick lifecycle. If it's Ick I guess it was already in my display and the addition of the new fish stressed out the Firefish. I am contemplating feeding dr. G's antiparastic formula as a prophylactic or just leaving as is. Problem is there is no way I can get the fish out to treat if it was Ick so I am in a little predicament.
<I'd just do your best to keep the system stable and optimized at this point. When you have time, peruse WWM for the many files on Cryptocaryon, parasitized systems... Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ick Questions

<Welcome Eric. BobF>

Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      5/13/17
I recently had to QT my Kole Tang, Harlequin Tusk, and dwarf golden Moray eel (Gymnothorax melatremus) due to a velvet outbreak. I've been treating the tank with 45mg/gal of CP. Everyone looks good. No more flashing and both fish are eating. The tank is BB with PVC fittings.
Now to the problem, my eel hasn't eaten (that I've seen) for 3 weeks.
<Might be the CP exposure; I'd stop it now>
He ate a big chunk of mixed food the day before the transfer, because I assumed that no one would eat until they settled in. He is VERY active. He swims all around the tank at night. During the day he hangs out in his PVC
pipe elbow. If I try to feed him, he sometimes takes a sniff and then seems like he's scared of it. I was wondering if it's the CP messing with his sense of smell because of the metal taste.
<Something like this>
At what point do I worry? I was thinking about putting the carbon in the filter and starting water changes. Is 21 days enough to kill velvet (or Ich, but I am confident that it was velvet)?
<I'd soak favored foods in appetite stimulant; such as SeaChem Appevite... and keep offering daily>
I've tried fresh oysters, mussels, squid, clam, etc. He seemed most interested in a silverside before the tusk stole it. In the DT he ate every 3-4 days. When he was swimming around the other night I tried to feed him
thinking he was hunting, but he just hid when I opened the lid.
<Morays, most eels of "good (index of) fitness, can go for long periods sans food. Don't give up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Eel (Gymnothorax melatremus ) won't eat on CP for 3 weeks      5/13/17

Thanks for the quick reply. I will add carbon tonight and start partial water changes with un-medicated water. My original plan was a 28 day CP treatment to be safe, but do you agree that a 21 day regimen was enough?
<I myself would stop now... another week may be more deleterious than advantageous. Bob Fenner>

Ich Issues
Ok Gents, first off great website and great info but couldnt really find anything on the followingOk we have a 270gallon system with several predators inside. 4 eels (yellow head, Black ribbon and Zebra) 2 Stone fish
and a Volitan Lion fish. Also in the same tank some yellow wrasses (eventual feed for the stone fish) and quit a bit of Blennies a small Red Grouper and a small panther grouper both last aditions.
The tank has a sand bed and some life rock though not too much.
Parameters are OK though Nitrates seem to spike sometimes but all the rest is OK. This tank has turned into the predator tank due to lingering ICH issues through the years which turned it into what it is now. ICH has never
been properly removed.
<Crypt is VERY hard to eradicate from a system once entrenched>
Now the idea would be to remove the entire sandbed leave the life rock and leave the eels and Rock fish only as they seem not effected by any of the ICH issues Both groupers and the Lionfish seem to suffer most from the ICH.
So remove all other fish and leave the tank without any other fish except for the Eels and Rock fish for about 2 months.Would this eradicate the ICH issue or can ICH survive with the Eels and rock fish inside?
<Won't; no>
I was of the assumption that ICH has no effect on those fish?
<They can/do act as reservoir hosts>
But can the ICH survive with them present so not that after 2 months we add fish (properly quarantined now) to the display and ICH breaks out again...?
<Can and will>
Please advise and Thank you as always from Thailand
<Take the long read on WWM re this ciliate. Bob Fenner>

Cryptocaryon and Chloroquine Phosphate     5/9/17
Hello from Romania,
<Howdy from California Andrei>
I hope you are all well. And thank you again for your valuable help you provide for all of us.
<Thank you and welcome>
About my current problem : because of a terrible accident with my calcium reactor in September I have lost everything in the tank so I took that opportunity to restart from scratch in my 350 gallons system consisting of DT, and one refugium and 4 sumps filled with live rock in the basement .
So I dried and washed all the rock, changed the sand in the refugium, etc.
When everything was ready, I decided to start the system in the following way :
not having any critters at all, I placed all the system in hyposalinity (SG at 1.008 - 1.009 ) with the plan to fully stock with fishes, and then keep it like that for other 3 weeks and then get the SG at sea levels and begin to stock with corals and invertebrates. I also have at hand enough Chloroquine Phosphate to treat all the system if necessary. ( you have no idea hw hard is the find CP here) . So I begun to put fishes in : Acanthurus Leucosternon, Acanthurus Achilles, Acanthurus Sohal, Paracanthurus Hepatus, Zebrasoma Xanthurum, Zebrasoma Flavescens x2 , Centropyge Bicolor, Centropyge Loriculus x2 , Centropyge bispinosus, Odonus Niger, Pomacanthus Imperator, Pomacanthus Xanthometopon and some wrasses, gobies etc. For a period of weeks while I added fishes, all the Acanthurus were spotless.
Problem : I begin to lose some fishes ( achilles, one of the flavescens, the loriculus ) apparently the ones that were not eating active enough or were shy, or were the target of aggression. But I am not so sure anymore.
<Oh Andrei! How I wish you had added a handful of hardy Damsels to first check the viability of your system. It may be that the issue/s here are non-pathogenic>
The fishes that died didn't had any sigh of the disease, but the last week I have seen some white spots on the Hepatus and some on the Leucosternon, even though the latter eats voraciously ( just like the Sohal or Xanthurum or Imperator). I am planning to add some more fishes that are on the way :
Pygoplites Diacanthus, Zanclus Cornutus and Chelmon Rostratus. ( I know they sound pretentious, but before the disaster I have kept all these fishes for years and in good conditions ) So, what do you think I should do : stay at this low SG, add all the fishes and stick with the plan, considering that the spots I see are introduced with the last fishes and when they will reach the right moment in their life cycle they will day and the hypo works?
<Hyposalinity rarely (never) brings about permanent Cryptocaryon eradication>
Is the low SG that is causing fishes loss, or maybe the crypt that seems to be resistant to the low SG?
<Likely low SG has something to do w/ overall stress; and this is the root "cause" here>
And if the crypt is resistant, is there any other reason I should keep low SG? Or use the CP, turn off the lights and
If I use the CP should I do it at this SG or wait until I get at higher SG?
Should I use the CP now or after the other fishes arrive ( in about a week ).
<I'd NOT add more livestock for now. I would NOT pour the CP into the system, but administer it to the fishes via foods... as gone over in Noga (I and II) and on WWM>
I know that these are many questions, but it was the best way to describe my indecision, and maybe some others will benefit from the clarification of these problems. Also, the way I planned to start this tank, until now it seemed for me the perfect and safest way in the right conditions, but I am not so sure anymore, maybe you help me clear this out.
Thank you very much again,
Andrei Sbarcea/Romania
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Marine Crypt      4/2/17
Good morning,
I have read a number of articles on Crypt, including the one on your website. I understand that a number of fish are resilient to Crypt and may never show any signs.
<Tis so>
Currently I have some corals, crabs, snails, cleaner shrimp, and for the fish stock: two clowns, rippled coral goby, yellow watchman goby, and a royal gramma. All fish are active eaters and I believe their breath rate is normal. The Gramma went through a minor flashing stage over maybe four days about a month ago and I had noticed a few white spots - could be Crypt, could be something else?
<Could be; pathogenic or not>
My coral goby that used to be a dark green with pinky/orange stripes decided to start perching in my colt coral, and over the course of a few days his color started to lighten considerably so that one would swear he was near white with pink stripes and blue eyes. While he still perches in the colt coral, he now spends most of his time in the liverock once again, and his color is darkening. I'm also noticing some small cloudy blotches on his fins. He aggressively eats and pursues my much bigger clowns for food. I'm not 100% sure this is Crypt with respect to the Gramma that appears to have small white spots that may be just under the surface of the skin, or my Coral Goby. If it is, and if my fish are resilient... Crypt requires a new host after a period of time.
<Mmm; yes; does leave; come back>
Am I correct in stating resilient fish will still host, thus this still needs to be dealt with?
<Dealt with... in terms of medicine? Better to improve environment, nutrition. Read on WWM re "parasitic systems">
Or, if all fish are showing capability to fight it off, and if I don't introduce new fish for a period of time (10mths) will
it disappear completely?
<Not likely no. There are SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) systems; but in actual practice, reality, most captive arrangements have resident parasites... Cryptocaryon is difficult to eradicate altogether once established, introduced. Bob Fenner>

Fine Filter Pads for Help Combating Ich/Marine Velvet      3/19/17
Hi Team,
I had an interesting hypothesis that I wanted to get your opinion on.
Would using fine filter socks/pads that are 50/100 micron be able to help control an outbreak of Marine Velvet and/or Ick?
<Mmm; would likely reduce incidence, but not totally control. DE (Diatomaceous Earth)... would be better>
I was doing some reading and it seems like the trophonts of each would be larger than 50 microns, so it would beg the question. Obviously like UV (which I think this would compliment) it can't eliminate it because it won't have full access to the entire volume of water at all times-but I would think that it could help prevent outbreaks when used in a sump in a tank with high water turnover and good circulation?
<Yes; help. Will/would require very frequent cleaning>

Assume that you could have a decent combination of filters (e.g. 200 micron + 100 micron + 50 micron stacked together and changed often.
Anyone heard of trying this approach?
<Oh yes. Screening like this is commonly employed by facilities using natural seawater for culture. Bob Fenner>

Ick; Didn't Quarantine        2/27/17
<Hi Mark. Gabe here from the crew>
My 400 gallon salt tank just got ick.
<Sorry to hear this. Every aquarist's nightmare>
It is fish only with no corals. I don't really want to medicate if at all possible so I don't kill off my live rock and sand.
<Ok. Might be your only choice in the end>
Any suggestions?
<Medications like copper are the best for FOWLR tanks, but there is an option if you don't want to medicate the display tank. The only way to do this would be to put all the fish in a quarantine tank with a medication.
This would keep the copper out of the display and keep your live rock and live sand alive. Throughout this quarantine period, you need to leave the display tank fallow/empty. Do not add any new specimens of any kind during this period Ick can not survive without a live fish host, so it will eventually all die off. I suggest an eight week period of quarantine and empty tank time. This will ensure all the ick is dead before you put the fish back in the tank. Other than this, there is no good way to not medicate the display tank. Hopefully this will be a life lesson to ALWAYS quarantine new fish. Let us know if you have any other questions. Cheers, Gabe>
Queries        2/27/17

Hi Bob-
Just got back on WetWeb now that my show is over. Thanks for understanding.
I replied to a query about ick that was in the Marine Queries folder to "Mark Salay", but it turns out you already replied to it but it was never moved.
<No worries; better for folks to have more input rather than less>
I guess they will get two replies, hopefully not two conflicting ones :)
Leaving it in the deleted messages folder in case you want to post.
Gabe Walsh, WWM Crew
<And you, BobF>
Re: Ick; Didn't Quarantine     2/28/17

Thanks for your reply.
<My pleasure. Gives me a reason to zone out during class>
I always quarantine new fish.
<How long do you treat them and what chemical do you use? Please send QT tank info>
I don't understand how it got in my tank.
<Could've been on your live rock or sand. Every tank I have had got it at some point>
I removed all fish into quarantine with the exception of two large zebra eels and a snowflake eel.
<Might want to move them>
I believe these will be ok because of their slime - - is this correct?
<Yes and no. Morays are not immune to ick, they are just highly resilient to it. Their slime is somewhat toxic so they rarely get it. In this case, I would move them just to be safe. It would be better to have the tank completely empty during this period. I don't know what chemical you're using, but eels can NOT be exposed to any copper at all. It will kill them.>
<Now is also a great time to redo some aquascaping and do water changes and filter changes. Should be easier with an empty tank, especially the aquascaping. I have little scars from trying to move stuff around with an eel in the tank. Also, we'd love some pictures for the site. Let me know if you have any other questions. Cheers, Gabe> 

Ick.. Crypt, no rdg; Using WWM      2/25/17
My 400 gallon salt tank just got ick.
<Umm; actually most all captive marine systems "have Crypt"... sub-clinical... "stressors", resulting in observable manifestations>
It is fish only with no corals. I don't really want to medicate if at all possible so I don't kill off my live rock and sand. Any suggestions?
<Yeah.... read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clndiscrypt.htm
and the linked files above; and QUICKLY! Need to formulate a plan, and act... or not.
Bob Fenner>

Restarting big system. The Crypt Blues BIG Time          12/6/16
Hello to you all and regards from Romania,
<Good morrow to you from not-yet sunny S. Cal. Andrei>
There is a lot I would like to explain, but I will try to keep it short:
big system, 250 g display, 5 sumps filled with live rock meaning another 150 g , one of the sumps RDSB with 20 cm of sand and Caulerpa on top, a lot of it , all full of 4 years old reef life. Cryptocaryon outbreaks , I suspect also velvet on the fish population : Naso tang, 2x Zebrasoma flavescens, Pomacanthus imperator, Zebrasoma xanthurum, Zanclus cornutus, Centropyge bicolor/loricula/bispinosus, marine beta, Acanthurus bariene/leucosternon/japonicus/achilles/lineatus, Paracanthurus hepatus, Pygoplites diacanthus, lo magnifica, pygmy lionfish, tomentosus filefish, Chelmon rostratus, and other small fishes : Synchiropus, clownfish , gramma, wrasses. All, 2-4 years old in the system..
I have been battling crypt for a long time, with signs always visible and occasionally outbreaks, so this time, that even the imperator stop eating, and some small fishes died, I decided to take extreme measures : all the fishes out in hyposalinity for 3 weeks with freshwater and blue Methylene bathes in transition, and after 4 days all the fishes are eating and doing well in hypo.
Now, the plan: all of the system dried , all the live rock out dry and then dipped in freshwater for 2-4 days. Rebuild the aquascape and refill all the sumps with the "dead" rock. What about the RDSB, what should I do about that? I imagine I should take out all the sand, wash it and redo the RDSB.
<You could... or just hope the Protozoan/s are weakened w/o fish hosts.... OR nuke/bleach it and... OR simply thoroughly vacuum and more hope.....>
The important thing now: what do I do to restart the system, should I fill the system with freshwater and run it for 1-2 days than begin to add salt just to be sure the crypt would be wiped out by the freshwater?
<Not likely ALL will be wiped out unfortunately. Cryptocaryon can become VERY entrenched... living DEEPLY on/in fishes... HENCE the need to optimize environment, nutrition and do your best to avoid uber stress>
What kind of freshwater, could I begin with filling with tap water and maybe adding some chlorine removal, given the fact that the population of fishes will not return in less than 3 weeks?
<No need to use chlorine remover... the salts will complex and it will otherwise dissipate in time>
Or should I wait for osmosis water to be produced? What if I don't take out all the live rock ( unbelievable amount
of life on it, all the sumps full with small crustaceans, snails, tube worms, sponges, tunicates, shells etc ) but just prepare the existing water in the system to 1.011 salinity , move the fishes in so they continue they're hypo in the main system, and start adding bacteria and bacteria food?
<Not likely to kill the Crypt thus>
Will any of the snails/starfishes/ bacteria/etc life survive or will it all be killed by the 1.011 salinity?
<Likely most all will be killed>
What will happen with the RDSB in 1.011 salinity, will all the life die, or the anaerobic areas, where I believe there is no crypt will preserve they're functions and the 1.011 salinity will kill the crypt on the surface of the sand?
<Will kill all... beneficial and not>
I want to make all that it takes to get rid of crypt, but I was just wandering if I might preserve some of the life that there is in and around the rock in the sump, especially in the RDSB tank.
thank you,
Andrei Sbarcea
<Wish I had better news to report... You HAVE read re infested systems on WWM?
Please (re)do: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

ICH too many options? which is right for my situation      11/28/16
Hello crew hope all is well. Thanks for this site and keeping it going its brilliant!. I'm over here in Scotland and so some items and products not readily available.
<Ah yes; understood... most anti-malarials, anti-microbials...>
I've gone through pages and pages of crypt advice and now confused as I have some options but I also feel stuck could you help please?
I'd rather be thorough and so here's a bit of background which you can remove the bits that aren't required if it's to be posted.
I moved in August and so in July I bought a smaller system to manage the move, less stressful on all fronts!
Main display tank is FOWLR 60"x30"x30" and sump with 36x24x18. 120kg(220lbs live rock). Overall I think 1100litres (290 gallons usa online converter). Sump houses a Deltec 2060 skimmer and return pump. There is also another pump in the third chamber where I run through to a fluidised sand filter set for 1500ltrs and then this passes on through a UV unit
<Will have to turn off if using copper...>
and into the top of a homemade trickle tower(an old drilled AquaMedic nitrate reductor with the bactoballs, ceramic media and sponge. Any way to increase filter power!. So far it's worked great with no ammonia or nitrite readings and generally less than 20 on the nitrate side of things for the past 5 years.
With the move I bought a small tank and set up and ran this for 6-7weeks prior to moving. Transfer large amounts of sand all the live rock to sump and ran as normal. Tank was 90cmx45cmx45cm with 4 chamber sump so some 250 litres(70 gallons usa I think?). Absolutely fine running no spikes so very happy. With the move I had enough water set up to transfer everything back into main display. I ran my RO machine along the road at a friends into a static pond and was able to transfer and refill the display tank over course of 24hrs. All good again and no issues with it running smooth the last 3 months with usual water chemistry as before. Having low stock probably helped.
Stock: I have a couple of blue damsels from way back (Chrysiptera cyanea), 2 Sergeant major (Abudefduf saxatilis), Banana Tusk (Bodianus perdition) called a tusk but presume it is a hogfish based on family name?
<Mmm; yes; though all wrasses/Labrids of the genus Bodianus do have the common appellation "hogfish" applied to them at times, places (plus another genus: Lachnolaimus)>
and my prize fish, yellow eye surgeon/Australian Blue tail tang (Acanthurus xanthopterus) I've seen many different common names for it but it's a lovely friendly fish, had it 5 years and now, was the size of a small yellow tang when I got her and now she pushing around 20" in size!. Cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labroides_dimidiatus>)( I wrote in about 5 years go so I know Bob referred me to the pages regarding these guys, maybe frowned upon so wont by them again but 5 years on he's still here!).
<Ah, good>
One chocolate chip starfish and a handful of turbo snails.
<Ahh; and these are problematical re most drug, economic poisons use>
Now to the problem of being to lapsed!
I purchased a yellow tang from my LFS and I got complacent and put him without QT, I didn't set up my other tank post move. 3 weeks on, no issues. My main plan is to have a small shoal of them.
<Can (severely) bicker amongst themselves... try two more... wait a month or two, possibly two more... for five total>
I have a new tank arriving in four weeks 96"x30"x30" Plus large sump so I'm calculating around 400-450 gallons usa. And there will be a good bit of swimming space for my big tang.
One of my LFS is stopping marines and he was aware of my plan so I was offered the remaining 4 in tank where my 1st purchase came from. I figured this may help on the pecking order as they had already seen each other. Maybe a bit to finding Nemo of me where they all have names and talk to each other, who knows but it worked a treat and no fighting, I also stuck a mirror at one end so they thought there was ten of them!.
I'm a sucker for a deal and was I guess caught up in moment. Current price for small YT with exchange rates £55-£60 so around $72 dollars, I was offered the 4 for $120. My complacency continued and has finally bit me! Of course I just added to main system. It was silly as I never had ability or space for QT and well now I do and I didn't set it up! My large tang as developed ICH and the yellows have started showed signs 4days ago.
My actions so far have been to run main system down to sg 1.08.
<Watch your starfish and snails! They will likely perish here>
I did large water changes and siphoned the tank and removed all the sand to see if that well help the where the ICH can go. I have treated the water with a malachite green/formaldehyde product to buy me time.
I see that these aren't the best?
<Dangerous... toxic, and the Malachite will stain...>
. Freshwater dip with the big tang, was only one showing signs. I appreciate doesn't eradicate or do too much but seemed to help her and stop her ticking behavior.
I have as of last night set up my small tank the 70g tank. The problem is where to go now?
<Easy to state, difficult to do, but patience... only>
I understand the fallow concept but can I move all the fish to the new QT tank, it's not cycled so is that not like the saying from frying pan to fire?
<Leave all fishes in the main display>
I attached a pic of my tusk and tang and so as you see space is a premium they did great in that tank for 7 weeks. I don't know if I could get away with adding all the yellow tangs as well? I thought I could add them to sump so there's more space for everyone but I still have a lack of filters or a bacteria cycle? Could I do daily water changes to maintain chemistry parameters?.
<You could, but see above. LEAVE fishes where they are>
I guess I can't take any rock from main tank as this will likely take the ICH with it. I had read about Brightwell aquatics and their bio xport rock? Huge surface area and their Nitrobacter 7. I've already bought this last week. I can seed this tonight and add to QT? Do I push them all into the QT tank? I feel like this is now a question of what do I want to save? Which feels horrible.
I also have a small 10 gallon orca tank and so could move the inverts to this then treat main system with say Seachem Paraguard as well?.
Seeing as I have a new system coming next month and with this tank already cycled should I do something a bit different and take all the rock and everything else out of my display tank? (fluidized sand filter?, all filter material? Trickle tower? And place all of this into my 70g tank. Then this means the QT could be the fallow tank and make the display the bare bottom tank/QT?.
<I would do none of this... VERY likely the Crypt WILL COME w/ the fishes when they're moved, AND moving them will stress them further, cause more trouble>
Add the xport to main system and this way give all the space they need? I can then treat the system with say ParaGuard once inverts are safe and in the 70g tank. This could be costly due to volumes were looking at for Paraguard. Finally I have another option which wouldn't be available to most. As you may be aware a lot of drugs in the UK are POM, even over the counter products like Ibuprofen have controls like you can't buy more than 32 at a time. I work in Veterinary industry and so have been able to discuss benefits of Metronidazole with some vets and get a prescription. I have tablets (400mg) and had planned to hide in some prawn, muscles or scallops. Like tricking your dog with worming. Big tang is off meaty foods but will still eat lots of the pellet food from the New life spectrum range! So still has an appetite which I hope is a good sign. I also managed to get oral Metronidazole like a syrup and tried squirting some in mouth but don't think it was ingested and when I tried dosing the food I don't think this has really soaked in and worked as more signs on yellows stated showing, they are also eating lots of brine and Spirulina flakes.
Where to go now?
<Were these fishes, systems mine, I'd NOT use Metronidazole, nor an anti-malarial... yet. Better by far to keep the spg low and wait>
Cross checking the oral levels from other posts I see 25mg/kg and 11mg/lb. seems to be appropriate. Due to size of my large tank I have also IV Metronidazole and so I have considered injecting sub cut into the tang may be the way forward to guarantee it's in her system?.
Sorry I guess I need a proper plan of action. Move fish or move rock?
<Move neither>
Try taking risk for all to be moved or just some. Should I look at treating the main system with Metronidazole as well or stick to the Paraguard with the tanks.
<Again; neither>
If I took Live rock out of water I guess it would die off. Should I put it all the rock in a separate storage tank with heater a flow and top up with the Nitrobacter 7. Sorry for the long email as I said I seem to have few options but this is causing me more problems as to what is best course of action. I would greatly appreciate any insight. Thank you hugely! in advance. I will NEVER EVER NOT QT GOING FORWARD. At least I will have a 70g and 200+g QT's going forward, regards Jonathan
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files in this series (above), and the linked files you find in-text... Bob Fenner>

White barred boxfish with oodinium      8/31/16
Hi Crew,
We have 2 white barred boxfish that have been fine for the past few months and last week broke out severely with white spots (more like icing sugar than anything) all over their bodies.
<I see this in your accompanying pic>
We did freshwater dips which helped someone what but not a lot and moved them into a separate quarantine tank where we treated them with Formalin for 24 hours.
<Mmm; very toxic. Better to use this biocide in dips/baths only>
The boxfish live at 67 degrees.
<I'd keep much lower; like the mid-50's F>

Today, although they are better, they are no where near good. This is a photo of them this morning after formalin.
Am looking for advice on next steps:
Here are my questions:
From the appearance in the photos, does this look like oodinium (or related parasite)?
<Almost assuredly Cryptocaryon... can be easily checked w/ sampling, microscope exam. IF Velvet they'd be dead
As you can see the larger one has lost a lot of colour, which started happening about 3 weeks ago. I believe that may have been the onset of the outbreak but the cold water suppressed the advancing parasite.
<Yes; all the more reason to lower it still>
Would hyposalinity be effective for treating these cold water fish?
<Can help; rarely effects a cure>
Should we drop the temperature to change the progress of the disease?
<Ah yes>
We are picking up some Chloroquine Phosphate, but will not have it until Thursday. How do we make it until then?
<IF you lower temp.; likely so>
Should the dosage of the CP be adjusted because of the water temp?

Would you recommend something else? (No, I have no access to a cold water cleaner fish, but wondering if a tropical cleaner fish would acclimate down to 67 degrees)
<Labroides et al. common cleaners; no>
Thanking you in advance,
and will be in your lecture at MACNA in a couple weeks!
<A good. See you then! Bob Fenner>

Re: White barred boxfish with oodinium      8/31/16
Thanks Crew,
<Cher bear>
Totally appreciate the comments. I am getting biopsy on Friday.
In your experience, are these fish beyond recovery?
<Mmm? No; genus Aracana are actually quite tough>
What would help
them in addition to the directions discussed. Vitamins? Omega Fatty Acids?
<In foods, added to water... to some extent? Increasing RedOx, much more so... a myriad of "things" that might improve water quality, stability, boost immunity.... BobF>
UV filter (which we keep on all our tanks). It is turned off
right now for medications.

Natural Cryptocaryon remedy        8/24/16
Hello crew,
<Hey Brad>
I have unfortunately fallen under the impulse buyers syndrome and haven't followed the proper steps to ensure healthy specimen's. ( No quarantine )
<So very common....>
And now I am battling a case of Cryptocaryon in my 125 gallon FOWLR. ( PH 8.2, No1 =0 No2= 0 Temp 82 ) Large skimmer, 100 lbs Live rock
<No NO3, nitrate? Unusual. I'd be "checking the checkers"; using another kit here>
The tank inhabitants are a 16" Hawaiian dragon
<Will need more room... am sure you're aware>
16" White Mouth Moray
3" Picasso Trigger
And now a 8" Dogface puffer ( the carrier of Ich)
So here is my concern, The Morays especially the Dragon are my main concerns.
<Yes; well... for browsers sake I'll mention that these species are usually protozoan tough/resistant>
I have read about marine Ich, Copper with Morays and puffers and medications (All of which sound pretty harmful)
<They can be; yes>
I do not have a quarantine tank so whatever I do it will have to be in the DT. I would like to stay as far away from chemicals as possible. It has been about two weeks and the Puffer and Trigger are showing signs ( white spots)
but otherwise acting normal ( eating and swimming). I raised the temp to 82 and have left the lights off.
Would hypo salinity 1.09 help? But not stress eels or kill beneficial bacteria?
<Will help... and will likely at least knock nitrifiers way back physiologically if not numbers/pop. wise. I'd be monitoring (daily at least) ammonia.... nitrite. And have a LARGE volume of water avail. for change out>
Temp is 82 should it be higher to speed up Ich cycle ?
<Yes; every little bit upward... Is there a link to a/the Q10 Factor? Oh yeah: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q10_(temperature_coefficient) >
Would a fresh water dip be beneficial or just add more stress?
<Too late... yes and too stressful. I myself would try lowering the spg to 1.020 today, maybe 1.015 the next and a regimen of CP (Chloroquine (di)Phosphate). You should see the Net, WWM re... and get onto finding/sourcing this ASAPractical... it too has potential downsides; so the same cautions mentioned above are apropos>
I guess what I'm asking is can natural remedy's such as these help restore fish immunity to help fight off parasites or is this all in vein?
<Vain; and no; best at this juncture to move the "balance point" in favor of your livestock... the system will almost assuredly remain or was infested (latently)... Let's have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and esp. HERE: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm >
And if the puffer and trigger remain in the tank with Ich what are the chances of passing to Morays?
<Mmm; they already "have it"; Muraenids, most true eels don't show the spottiness clinically as much as most other families of marine fishes... You'll notice heavier (more -labored) more frequent gilling, excessive body mucus.... Other symptoms if/when the eels are more/hyper infested>
Thank You all very much.
<Lower the spg., look for the quinine, DO the reading. Bob Fenner>
Re: Natural Cryptocaryon remedy      8/25/16

Thank you Mr. Fenner,
I can't tell you how grateful I am to you and your groups help.
<Ah, welcome. I've spent more than fifty years in the trade... I can imagine indeed. BobF>

Ich! But from where?      8/10/16
Hello WWM Crew,
How are you fine people today?
<A bit sleepy thus far... maybe 17% thus far; you?>
Thanks for keeping this site alive with all this information for us hobbyists. I will try to keep it short. I started up a 150g tank and after 2 ½ months I added some crabs, snails and 2 shrimp they all did fine so I added my first fish. He also did well so I started adding my fish from my 90g slowly one at a time. Everybody was doing fine in their new home, very active all alert and eating very well. The tank has been running for about 6 months now so I decided to get a Heniochus. My LFS had one for about 3 weeks and I would check him out every week and he was eating, active, alert and no signs of parasites, so I bought him.
<Mmm; likely H. acuminatus or... the two more popular, commonly offered species. Really need to be kept in a small school of odd-numbers... three, five... Social animals that get VERY stressed when kept singly... and sometimes very picky toward esp. other Chaetodontids>
I put him in my 90g which now is a QT and kept him there for one month he was doing very well, very alert and active and ate very well. While he was in QT there were no signs of parasites so after the 1 month QT I put him in the 150g with a FW dip on the way there.
The only fish that harassed him was the Yellow Tang. There was no nipping or chasing just asserting himself on the Heniochus. After about 5 days you guessed it, white spots on the Heni. There are not many just a couple on his tail.
<Mmm; well; might not be Crypt... perhaps Trematodes, or even "just" damage/reaction zones... like a bruise in humans>
I don't have access to CP just yet so I started soaking the food in Seachem Metroplex, Selcon and Garlic and they are all eating it like pigs but I am still seeing a couple of white spots on the Heniochus. He makes frequent trips to the Cleaner Shrimp.
<Again; not necessarily a harbinger of doom>
I will have access to CP in 3 weeks but in the meantime do you think I should keep using the Metroplex?
<Not for anymore than the label recommends. Metronidazole itself is a "kidney killer". http://www.seachem.com/metroplex.php>
In your opinion do you think I will have a full blown infestation and have to remove all and treat in a QT or is this maybe just a case of stress? I appreciate and value your opinion.
<I wouldn't panic... NOT move the fishes, NOT treat the system further. Cryptocaryon can/does come in on anything wet at times. VERY likely your system has a "latent" infestation (I'd easily wager that almost all systems do)... Read instead of fretting
... Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above.>
Thanks so much in advance
<Again; don't despair. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich! But from where?       8/12/16

Hello Mr. Fenner
Thanks for the response. I am more awake than you as I am in Montreal Canada so my day was half over by the time you sent the response.
<Ahh; about 2 PM or so here PST; about half sentient now>
I have read the link you sent before along with many other articles about Ich. I just found it strange that I took precautions by QT and FW dipping and ended up with white spots on him,
<Meh; very common. Isolation won't cure anything by itself... and there are MANY instances where Crypt is deeply embedded, not susceptible to hyposalinity.. B'sides, the Crypt was highly likely (99.9 percent plus) already established in the main/display>
by the way he is Acuminatus.
<Ah yes>
I did read a lot about them before buying and I am aware that they do better in groups but they get so big I think 3 in a 150g is too much.
<Up to you. A singleton usually does just fine in a large enough system>
For the Metronidazole the instructions say to treat for 3 weeks or till symptoms disappear.
<Mmm; yes; IMO, humble or not, this is too long. If interested, do a bit of look seeing re nephritic conditions and this compound>
The LFS suggested to use 1/4 of the measuring spoon supplied but the directions call for 1 measuring spoon to 1 spoon of food. I was using 1/4 spoon and it wasn't enough so I used a full spoon for 3 days before I wrote to you
and it seems to be working.
<Ah good>
How much can fish take before kidney failure and what are the symptoms of kidney failure?
<How to put this (twixt you and I not knowing each other well); this is more of a successive approximation situation... every little bit hurts. Rather than a threshold response... no problem till you get to such a point. All exposure is damaging>

I have stopped the treatment since you wrote back to me and will wait it out. Thanks so much again and nice talking to you.
<And you>
I saw your video with the Fishguys and you remind me of Paul Sorvino. Have a good day.
<Heeee! Will have to look up this handsome devil. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Thanks again

Hepatus Tang & Ich        8/11/16
Dear Bob & Crew,
<Hey Joe; "where you goin' w/ that fish net in your hand....?">
Thank you again for your passion for marine life! Love the books especially!!
Just a quick question today. I have a Blue Tang (Hepatus) in Quarantine that I would like to add to my year old 155g in-wall reef. I've had ich wipe out my fish before and it is not pretty. I am extremely nervous about adding the new addition. If I could start over, I would add the Hepatus first to prevent spreading ich to other fish.
Regardless, I do think that I will add it to the display shortly. The tang has been in QT for 3 months. Upon arrival it displayed a small degree of white spot that has come and gone repeatedly. Coloration, personality, and appetite are wonderful! It is in QT with a Clarkii Clown which curiously has shown no evidence of ich for the duration of the 3 months. I am feeding a variety of pellet (NLS, Ocean Nutrition) flakes and many species of dried algae, all soaked in garlic concentrate. Feeding is three times daily and the Tang appears to have grown a bit.
Any thoughts on successfully acclimating this fellow (2.5" by the way) to the display?
<You haven't treated the fish prophylactically as yet? I would at least dip/bath it incoming and enroute to the main/display... and likely have fed it CP per the SOP on WWM or Goemans and Ichinotsubo>
Current fish in the 155g are: 5" Sailfin Tang, Flame Angel, 5 Blue Chromis, 2 Skunk Clowns, and a Mandarin Goby. I was planning on NOT administering a freshwater dip for fear or stressing it.
<Better this than casual Crypt et al. introduction>
You may disagree. I will also be gradually matching the salinity and temperature of the two tanks before introduction.
I've noticed that several people have these fish that exhibit the onset/offset of white spots and that it does not always transmit (at least visually) to other fish.
<Well-worded. Yes to "it not showing" and most all systems having latent infestations>
I find it interesting how virulent ich can be at times while other times seemingly be innocuous.
<Ahh! Wise of you to state>

Thanks so much!!Joe
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine      6/9/16
I have a dilemma and would appreciate your great advice as always.
<What's up?>
Note that I have a permanent running and fully established 75 gallon QT/Hospital tank.
About 4 weeks ago I purchased a Purple Tang (maybe 5 inches in size).
<What did Gurley Halleck expound when seeing his first worm in "Dune"? "Egads, what a monster"! This is a big Zebrasoma to purchase, collect from the wild>

I purchased it from a reputable LFS. It was eating like a pig, was active, and showed no signs of illness. They stated that it had been in their possession for a few weeks.
<I see>
As I do all new fish arrivals, I put it into my QT/Hospital tank for close to two weeks.
<Mmm; no dip/bath enroute? I would do so... to "knock off" Protozoans, Trematodes... external issues>
It was fine, eating like a pig, no issues, no illness. Thus, I moved it to my 150 gallon DT. This tank has been disease free and all the readings are very good. I believe in "over-filtration", thus there's plenty of flow, a UV filter, oversized skimmer, oversized sump pump, refugium (with Macroalgae, red mangroves..), and about 100+ pounds of live rock...etc. I have high powered LED's on the tank. There's been no issues of aggression within the tank and the Purple Tang would be hypothetically considered the most aggressive type of fish in that tank and the currently largest fish
for that tank, excluding a well fed 10 inch Snowflake Eel that minds his own business and who's been a good citizen.
<Echidna spp. usually are>
Other inhabitants are a 3 inch Flame Angel, a 3 inch Koran Angel, a 4 inch Majestic Rabbitfish, and a 3 inch Sailfin Tang.
I knew that I was "rolling the dice" with the Sailfin Tang already being in there, but after a lot of reading and visiting with LFS' I was fairly confident it would work as I've previously introduced a Sailfin Tang into a different 150 gallon tank with an established Yellow Tang that has worked out well thus far and for over a year. IMO, from research and experience, it seems like the Sailfin Tang's are more likely to co-exist of the Zebra species if introduced at a different time.
<This is my and many others (recorded) experience as well>
After a little bit of posturing back and forth maybe for 2 days, the Purple Tang and the Sailfin Tang adjusted and accepted each other. I never witnessed any chasing or nipping, simply a bit of posturing, flaring up of the fins. The Purple Tang continues to eat well. However, within the last week the Purple Tang has developed Ich. None of the other fish display any signs of Ich.
<Common and not uncommon>

The Purple Tang continues to eat like a pig, swims all over the place, and seems very healthy, very happy, except for the Ich, always very eager to eat, getting excited when I approach the tank. I feed him and the tank a mix of mysis shrimp, brine/Spirulina, and algae sheets.
Since he developed Ich I've been adding Socol, VitaChem, and Metroplex mixed with Garlic into the food this tank eats. All of the fish eagerly eat at each feeding which is 3 to 4x a day. Usually I feed 2x a day, but I stepped up feedings to hopefully strengthen their immune systems.
Here's my dilemma, I could move the Purple Tang to my QT/Hospital tank, which seems like a no brainer, and for most any other fish I would do it ASAP, but this Purple Tang, despite its case of Ich is a very happy fish that's very active and eats like a pig. I am concerned about stressing it out, trying to catch it, then move it to a new tank. Might this put it
into a downward spiral?
<It could; yes>
I've always successfully used 1/2 the recommended dosage of Cupramine to treat Ich. Keeping the fish in QT for 4 weeks. I just ordered some Dr.G's Caviar that includes CP too that I intend to feed this 150 gallon DT with the Purple Tang. I've done some research on Purple Tang's and Cupramine and it appears that they might have more sensitivity than most other fish to Cupramine?
<Tangs and allies... and a few other fish families/groups too... You can search, read this on WWM, in books I've penned>
Thus, this too, makes me think I should continue to treat the DT with medicated food. However, am I doing the right thing? Would you move the Purple Tang to the QT? Thank you.
<I would NOT move the Tang... but leave in place, continue w/ the feeding treatments you're doing and have planned. Some archived input on the subject here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Fw: Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine       6/9/16

I forgot to mention that this 150 gallon DT with the Purple Tang is a reef tank, thus my use of treatment so far by medicated food.
<Ahh; please read here as well: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/reefparasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked.... B>
Re: Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine      6/10/16

Thanks Bob. I very much appreciate your expertise. I really needed someone of your caliber of experience to review my dilemma and give their opinion.
<Glad to share, render it>
My gut has been to keep the Purple Tang in the DT considering it behaves very healthy, eats like a pig, seems really well adjusted, except for the Ich, but I've been torn, knowing that I have an established QT. Thanks again!
BTW, note that on my QT/Hospital tank, for all new arrivals, unless I am aware of any sensitivity to Cupramine, I dose the QT tank with 1/4 to 1/2 the recommended dosage of Cupramine for two weeks as my method to treat for any diseases before introducing them into the DT.
<Mmm; well; the standard spiel re treatments, moda am sure you're familiar w/; and Cu++ exposure period... does more harm than good beneath some threshold "physiological" dose... likely near/below 0.15 ppm you're poisoning the fish hosts more than accomplishing any positive effects>
This strategy has worked really well for me on new introductions thus far except for this Purple Tang. I have ParaGuard, PraziPro, and Ich Attack available in my arsenal to use too that I had tried in my earlier reef/fish
keeping days for new arrivals, however, from experience, I've had by far the most success with Cupramine at a reduced dosage thus I've stuck with it for new arrivals. Beyond this, my strategy for any new coral arrivals is to use ReefDip for 30 minutes.
<Ah, good. I've used and caused to purchase hundreds of carboys of Cupramine. Am a fan as well. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Purple Tang - Ich - Cupramine      6/10/16

A worthy summation re Cu use in aquatics:

honest questions. Crypt. Reading      4/23/16
Hey Bob,
I write to you, 230 am eastern time here, (NJ, great snorkeling, unlimited barnacles and syringes)
I have tirelessly compiled data, cut and copy faq's and literature written by yourself, Steven Pro, and various experienced reefers on reef central.
I feel I have a good grasp, however I have some wholes that need filling, and also wish to have your opinion that I have not seen discussed.
I will keep it short, I know you have many people to help.
Gap 1. Does copper, more specifically Cupramine, kill the protomont
Read here: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
Most of everything I read says it only targets and eradicates the stage where it hatches out looking for a host. My question, deals with the stages that falls off the fish, crawling around to encyst. I am asking because I wish to know if a fish is added to copper, would the ich that falls off looking to harden and encyst, be effected? I've also encountered the phrase "copper kills free swimming stage", which to me would imply all stages that don't involve the one embedded on the fish, and the one that is in cyst form, waiting to hatch out.
Gap 2. I know in many instances in life, (to quote Jurassic Park), life finds a way. Chloroquine phosphate was created to cure malaria, but in time it stopped working. I have seen some accounts where reefers (not scientifically credentialed) said copper was no longer effective and therefore not the preferred method of choice.
<They're wrong. Still effective; often the best mode of control
Has the time come, where we need to start looking past copper? (for reasons of it not working, not for reasons of toxicity to fish or difficulty maintaining levels)
And lastly, my tank is now 36 days fallow. I plan on running two more.
All of the fish have been in Cupramine, and once the two more weeks have expired, they would have been in copper for 7 weeks. I see many people are using tank transfer method. I was going to do this, as an added measure, insurance policy if you will.
Is this, in your experience, over kill, more stress than needed, considering the time they would have spent in therapeutic levels of copper?
<Already gone over and over on WWM>
Part of me says the copper should suffice (if indeed it is still a viable weapon), the other half says to execute ttm, although, that is more steps, and ultimately more stress.
That is all I have. Trying to put the pieces together, and in the 50 plus pages I have in m binder. those holes are still vacant.
Thanks in advance, Bob
Signed, bob
Morning bob
Quarantine commitment... Cryptic Crypt f's ongoing      6/8/16
Hello Bob,
Thanks to your site, I think I have given my fish the best chance against parasites. Before quarantining, I lost a handful of fish life, and vowed to not make that ugly mistake again happen on my watch.
I let the tank run fallow for at least 30 days, (60 days, not by design, but had house issues happening at the same time) I also treated the fish in a separate quarters with copper.
So far only a hippo tang will show some white spot intermittently, as I believe like you, ich is always present, but less so having run fallow and weakening the parasite.
As a preventative for new fish, I was wondering what you think of my plan.
Using tank transfer (moving fish every 72 hours, 4 times total) which should prevent ich if done correctly.
<Not likely; no... all "it takes" is missing one, some. Best to optimize environment, nutrition... we've been over this>

Knowing this does nothing for velvet, using Cupramine, on these transfers.
It. would be simple to make up 30 gallons of water, with .5 Cupramine level, and use that as the new water for the 72 hour transfers.
My reservation comes with a notable Reef central member stating that copper may complicate the ich life cycle.
<? Complicate?>
.I've always understood that ich need to fall off the fish within 3-7 days, and in my mind, because copper is there, they couldn't choose to hold off and wait for copper to go away before falling off an continuing their cycle.
What do you think
<Your last idea is valid. B>
re: Morning bob
Ongoing chatting re Crypt; life       6/9/16

Hey Bob,
Thanks for the replies. It's amazing, the ttm idea , of moving the fish, seems like the Bible way of doing it to almost anyone I speak to.
<My usual response here: "Believe what you will till experience changes your mind">
However , the last idea I proposed to you, which you admitted to maybe having some validity, is laughed at by the same.
<... all of these ideas, methods have been gone over and over. ALL the wholesalers in the world, MOST all the collectors, retailers, jobbers STILL use copper.... READ IT, BELIEVE IT, LIVE IT. Stop wasting y/our time and killing livestock heedlessly>
I agree, when you transfer fish, you are transferring the water with them, some, even if a little. Percentage wise, even if you leave behind 99 percent of them, well you still have too many that made the trip.
It's amazing the long time guys in the more respectable sites push ttm.
However, I don't see it happening that way, and I at least feel better an expert as yourself leans the same way.
<Not a matter of one "expert", a person's opinions vs. others.... Simply science and history>
I believe what was meant when someone stated the copper complicating the cycle, was the ich will adapt and hold on to the fish longer if copper is present, and wait it out until it can continue.
<What? Nonsense... the copper is a proteinaceous precipitant... causes the fish host to exude... slough off... Except (here it comes) for deeply embedded parasites
That would imply they have free choice, not a designated life cycle.
<Shades of DEVO! "Freedom of choice (or parasites) is what you want..."
If that were the case, even in clean, copper free water, who's to say the same "feeling" of waiting more time wouldn't apply.
I will do 7- 14 days in proper copper range, hope the studies of 2-7 days are correct, and hope the copper kills and prevents the cycle from going on.
Thanks again bob
re: Morning bob      6/9/16

Under and agreed, 100x over.
I would pay to see you converse with the gentleman (sometime not so gentle) on reef central, but the Lord knows you have way better things up your sleeve. Sad part is, dozens of not hundreds listen to them on a daily basis, shame on them, sorrowful for the fish.
<Don't know who or really what you're referring to. I don't "do" the bbs>
I know you actively keep goldfish as a pet from prior conversation.
<Ahh, not for years. Unfortunately those (Eheim) tanks failed>
If you were to do a "saltwater" tank, which direction would you go?
<Our companies installed many such systems decades back... and I was a keeper as well. Given time, circumstances... I'd like to do culture... likely dwarf Pomacanthids, hybrids of such... and the food organisms to rear their young>
Something tells me it wouldn't be the norm mixed reef or fowlr tank.
Thinking more the lines of a non photosynthetic, deep water tank with Nudibranchs and mantis shrimp.

Advice please... Y Tang stkg., comp.      3/1/16
Greetings, Recently I set up a reef tank 265 gallon and I got the aquarium design from a book called “ Aquarium Model Designs” by John Tullock. In one of his designs, he called for 9 yellow tangs in a 180 gallon. This design is called “ Cheerful Yellow”. I am sure you know of this book.
<Yes; have a copy; know JohnT>
I have a 265 gallon fully cycled tank so I added 9 young, small Yellow tangs, a medium size purple tang and 20 azure damsels. After a day of calm, the YTs started fighting and 2 weeks in, all develop a severe case of Ich.
<Mmm; yes... and this picking is very likely to continue. Yellow Tangs need to be much more or less crowded than this... else you'll suffer slow attrition...>
However all YTs are eating like machines. The PT also had Ich but now no signs of Ich is seen now. I have had him for 7 years in my old 210 gallon and he had recovered from ich in the past w/o treatment. Please tell me if this plan is a good plan:
- Remove all the yellow tangs and treat them/sell them to LFS.
- Leave the azure damsels and PT in the tank if they do not show signs of Ich.
- Let the tank be for 6 weeks. If there is NO signs of Ich on the damsels and the PT, then add a school of true schooling fish such as Chromis and the nicer blue reef type.
I believe 9 tangs in a 265 is not doable as the author led me to believe.
<I do agree>
Please tell me if my anticipated plan is appropriate.
<It is one route to go... you will have a resident, residual Crypt infestation... most if not all systems do... With challenges like poor water quality, dips in nutrition... bringing on clinical signs>
I have few corals in the tank so treating the disease in the tank is not possible. Thank you and I look forward to your reply. Dai
<MUCH more could be stated; IS archived on WWM re. I'd spend some time reading... re Crypt; parasitized systems, Tangs and Protozoans.... Bob Fenner>
Re: Advice please... Yellow Tang (in)comp., stocking lg. SW sys. f's      3/22/16

<Salud. Have re-read our correspondence. Thank you for including>
Let me update you on my tang situation. Now I have 6 remaining yellow tangs and they all are eating and very active, No signs of ich anywhere but I lost 4 due to ich. (40% loss). Now all the damsels (20 +), the purple Tang and 6 YTs are doing well. Some days they fight with each other but no fish seems to be bullied/sulk into a corner and some days they don't mind each other at all. Now I have 2 questions:
1. I would like to add medium sized hippo and a medium Naso. I had them with the PT in my previous 210 without any issues. However they did not make it in the dealer tank (too small tank) when I was getting my new tank cycled. When would be a good time to add them?
<Mmm; any time; however; there is a good chance of bringing back (clinically) the Crypt/Ich on at least the new Tangs; due to stress...>
I understand there are still active ich but they cannot infect the current fish because these are healthy and not stressed. Should I wait 3 months or add now?
<Later would be better>
2. Is it a bad idea to add 2 more same size YTs?
<Likely so; yes. I would NOT add more>
I am concern about disrupting the equilibrium now that may bring back onset of ich. I believe it is a bad idea but I thought I run through it with you.
Thank you Mr. Fenner for all you do! Thanks again Dai
<Glad to share Dai. Bob Fenner>

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