Crypt F 35

FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 35

Long horned cowfish question 3/16/16
I've had my salt water tank for over two years now and my cow fish about the same time. He's done great until I added a very small amount of coral to the tank (about 5 weeks ago).
<Mmm; might be the source, of the pathogen, or enough added stress to elicit... Crypt>
Now he has these white specks but that's it, behavior, eating and everything else is fine I'm just concerned with how he looks and my other fish are perfectly fine.
<Won't be for long>
All my levels are "perfect" according to the liquid drop testing (I've noticed the stick strips say my levels are crazy
<These strips are neither accurate nor precise. Try reading on WWM re>
but I've also read a lot about those being inaccurate a lot due to the maintenance required to keep them "good"). He has a very well rounded diet of seaweed, algae tabs, Mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, blood worms, dry plankton, and flake food with garlic (not all are at every meal they are separated Morning and night) my tank has a 3 stage filter ( mechanical filtration, chemical with an ammonia reducer, and a bio filter all changed regularly but not on the same days) I also have a protein skimmer 150 gallon. This is my first saltwater tank, however it's my dad's second so he's the more experienced one and claims he's okay but I'd rather have a professional reassure me. We did our routine water change about 3 weeks ago and still no change.
<Trouble.... deaths coming unless you act quickly>
His name is Otis
<My man!>
(after the cow from back at the barnyard) and I'm worried. I do have copper safe
<... See... as in READ on WWM re puffers and copper exposure... NOT a good idea. NEED to READ and act... lowered spg in the short term to buy you time.... CP; other quinine... NOW>
on hand if it is Ick but I don't want to give him any chemicals without knowing due to his sensitive skin.
<Good>
I also notice a few other posts on your page say to lower the salt but I'm concerned about how that will effect the other fish.
<Better by far than the alternative>
Another person said it was "dead" skin
<... no. Dismal>
and to remove it with a cotton swab but he will eat plastic when acclimating other fish, corals, etc. (all of my fish are bought local from the same shop every time and have NEVER had a problem) this is new sense in
the two years I've had the tank nothing has ever happened *knock on wood* the only time a fish has died is when two have jumped out of the tank, but we now have a glass lid to prevent that.
He's very social and still comes to the tank to great me and other people.
His behavior hasn't changed just his skin. I'm also worried cause when I put the coral in he accidentally bite me and there was some blood, but like I said he has a thing for plastic and I had my hand in the bag trying to
get the coral out (which the coral is doing great as well)
My live rock is kind of low but the local shop here doesn't sell much and I don't like buying online during the cold weather and living in upstate New York our weather has been crazy!! Lately
Thank you so much and I really hope my dad is right and I'm just overly worried ( I do the same with my boys too).
Sincerely,
Jillian
<The reading; ASAPractical; formulating a work-able plan and then....
ACTION. Write back (after reading) if your path is not clear. Bob Fenner>

Re: Long horned cowfish question 3/17/16
I did lower the salt level as suggested. I only lowered it to .0022
<1.022 likely>
(I'm hoping I remembered that number correctly) which is only a few levels lower than my tanks "normal" and will lower more tomorrow.
What level do you recommend?
<... please search, read on WWM ahead of writing us>
I also bought vitamin drops to add to the food and will be adding krill to his diet and live snails.
<Good>
All other fish and coral are looking/doing fine.
<Not too much lower if you have corals; other invert.s... Perhaps 1.021>
Any other ideas for him?
<YES! The reading re Cryptocaryon and puffers:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptpuffs.htm
Didn't I stress the need for READING then ACTION? Your fishes may soon be all dead>
I wasn't sure on some of your abbreviations so I hope I acted correctly.
Also did you get the photos I attached to the last email? There was no comment on if it looked like Ick or anything.
<.... ?~! Re-read below... SW Ich IS Cryptocaryon.... Bob Fenner>

Ich decision 3/12/16
Hello Bob,
<Howdy>
I spoke to you at length in the past about various issues. I have come to a fork in the road, and although I think I know what to do, I would like your audience guidance.
<Audience?>
Two months ago I was given an. Established tank, with fish and soft coral.
I transferred but to my house, and didn't lose a think during or after process.
<Think?>
I added a few more things here and there, and my sps are doing well, for once, I have them actually growing and encrusting.
<Good>
I picked up some fish from reputable online retailer, from in which they quarantine there fish. Low and behold, within a week of adding, Ich is all about.
<... gots to do your own quarantine....>
My first instinct is to grab copper, having had fowlrs my whole life, but knew better with having the coral. My aquarium is tightly monitored, and there have been no swings or power failures.
<See; as in read on WWM re... Cryptocaryon is likely omnipresent to degrees on all tropical marine fishes>
The Ich could have been there from the guy who had them. I could have added it with new fish, regardless I have it, and it has cost me the lives of six fish so far.
<No fun>
My father, who assisted me with the purchase of my first home so my dilemma, knew I was not really in a financial standing to go out and acquire a proper size quarantine, so as a gift, he offered to help me upgrade now, from a 75, to a 180. I will be using same pumps, skimmer, lighting etc
<Okay>
I picked tank up tank today, have aluminium stand being welded as we speak, and hope to have tank wet by tomorrow night.
<Nice!>
My plan is to have tank filled. By Sunday, raise my param.s to match. My existing tank (Alk, Cal, Mag, temp etc), let it run two days, with live rock I already have in existing tank, and move all of my coral and rock, inverts, snails etc, to new tank. The 100 lbs of live rock I am hoping has enough in it to handle the sparing feedings in the beginning.
While the coral is out, I can then use the existing 75 I currently have, as a quarantine tank, and treat with copper.
<One route to go. Nowayears for most cases/circumstances, am more inclined to use quinine (CP)>
My plan would be to have new display tank, run fallow for 12 weeks. In the 75 with the fish, run Cupramine for 6 weeks, and the remaining 12 run Prazi pro and then observe the last 4 weeks until main tank has gone 12 weeks
without a fish. From there, quarantine everything that goes in 180, with my 75, no less than 6 weeks.
Does this sound like a viable option?
<Is one>
It sounds counterintuitive to add live rock, that most likely has Ich eggs on them, into a brand new set up I am trying to keep free of pathogens . however, unless I acquire a third tank, I have no way of testing fish, absent of coral, without utilizing new tank.
Thanks in advance. Bobby
<I'd be reading, now... writing later. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich decision 3/13/16
Hey Bob,
<Bob>
Few things, the audience guidance was a term I picked up in a elected drama class in college. Basically you have someone acting out, and using the guidance or direction from those watching. Probably should have used a
different term with that.
<Ahh!>
This plan or method I have is from weeks if not months of reading. The fee things that throw me off are:
<Fee? Few?>
Some articles claim some Ich strains can go months, as much as 10 without a host. My measly 3 month plan may not be enough.
<All a matter of degree... the vast majority of virulence ("infectiousness") drops off w/ such parasites within a few days sans hosts... A good understanding of the balance of factors CAN BE READ HERE:
http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm>
Secondly, some Ich have become copper resistant. I do have Chloroquine phosphate on hand from a vet
<Ah, great!>
It is a year old, has been stored in the dark, I imagine it is still good.
Perhaps I can go 4 weeks of that, then 4 Cupramine. I. will have much time for this.
<Do be on your guard (close observation) for copper poisoning effects... labored breathing, cessation of feeding...>
And lastly, and you just mentioned it may always be present on fish.
<Yes; there are only "specific pathogen free" facilities that I've encountered that have successfully excluded Cryptocaryon, other pathogens>
If that is the case, does that ultimately mean you can quarantine and prophetically treat all incoming fish, only to have it be in there regardless.
<Yes... again; THAT reading above... to understand the balance one must aim for... Better species (genetics), better handling (ontogeny), suitable environment..... THESE all tilt the equation in favor of livestock (vs. diseases of oh so many kinds)>
I was under the impression that the parasite had a direct life cycle, but then again, does anyone really know what that is? ( SeaChem says 14-28 days in egg, Taiwan article says 8 months, most reefers will say 72 days)
<What parasite? The life histories of the Protozoan here are well-elucidated... different time scales for varying conditions; mainly temperature. You need to learn to critically read.... Decide for yourself... sort the proverbial wheat from the chaff... The nonsense from reality on the Net. In-print work is MUCH more useful>
I learned along time ago to read a lot before asking.
<Ahh! Commendable>
I feel having read what I did, I am still left with the aforementioned gray matter.
<It's not "just you"; online resources span the gamut of useful, timely, accurate, significant input, to absolute garbage.
Bob Fenner>
Ich; Crypt... tangs.... Using WWM 11/26/15
Hello my name is Esmeralda and I recently bought 4 tangs a Blue hippo, Sailfin, scopas, and a yellow eyed Kole tang. I've had them for three days and I just noticed they all have white spots on them.
<Ah yes; Surgeons/Tangs are quite susceptible to Crypt>
I have two little clown fish a small puffer a sleeper goby and a mandarin goby and 4 small damsels. they r all small fish I've had all the other fish for a while now and I just introduced these 4 tangs but the problem is now they have Ich and I noticed my puffer is starting to get white spots too.
<Yes; the fancy name "Ichthyophthirius" means "Fish" "disease/condition" "that can be seen".... All fishes are to degrees able to be hosts>
I went to a local saltwater store and I was told to get Ich-X.
<Not of any use; a scam. Search WWM and READ Re>
I started it yesterday but it seems to just get worse on the tangs. I have a lot of corals in the tank as well I don't know what to do because it seems as though its getting worse instead of better and my tangs r starting to move slower and hiding more.
<Unfortunately; the mix of fishes you have can't really be treated together.... the others you already have are easily poisoned by most "Ich remedies" that can/will treat the Tangs. As there is too little time to have you adequately read, understand and react, I strongly encourage you to drastically drop the spg/density of your water here... like to 1.016 now and a further few thousandths tomorrow; to gain you and the fishes some time. And......>
I called the fish place where I got them and they said it was probably because of the stress they've been through.
<... yes; this plus they had the Crypt oncoming w/ them.... Almost all fishes ARE carriers; assuredly all Tangs>
Please help I don't want them to die they look so pretty and all I wanted was a good home for them.
<.... You'll have to READ. Start HERE:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/crypttangsf4.htm
and then the articles at top: DO THIS ADDITION OF FRESHWATER TO REDUCE SPG NOW; and READ ASAPractical. You need speed and comprehension to form a workable plan, else your livestock will die.
Bob Fenner>
Sps and Ich... No use writing if you won't read.... le boot 3/29/16
Hey Bob,
<The same>
I have all my fish in a 75 quarantine with Cupramine. My main display, a 180, will sit fallow for 10 weeks ( some say 30 days, others 72)
<Almost the good that can/will be done in such circumstances is over in two weeks. As gone over and over and over... if folks would search, read... like 30k do everyday>
All I have in the display are sps corals, and snails and shrimp.
<And resident... Crypt>
My tank is relatively empty, about 20 frags or so. I plan in adding a few more soon while it is still fallow, but the dead I have is Ich eggs
<Mmm; not eggs>
in whatever corals I bring in.
<? Do you mean the ones that are there?>
Join further reading, many say to have a quarantine tank for corals, to ensure eggs hatch out , and not in your display.
<Other terms for intermediate stages; but yes to isolating... allowing the trophonts to weaken>
For sps, I would think I would need some fancy lighting, better filtration, flow etc. Not to mention a very established qt, with stable chemistry.
<Mmm; not really... think on the world's reefs (hoping you're a dive traveler); they're not well lit at times for days, weeks on end. Some lighting will do; and changing water from your main display should maintain water quality>
I almost known for sure that the coral qt would get me kicked out of the house, the 75 gallon fish qt nearly did.
<Yikes!>
In all your experience, is there a way to add sps and prevent incoming Ick?
<A hard/tricky question. In actual practice? No; not really. There are Specific Pathogen Free settings... as in some aquaculture... but again; rare>
Or would it be best to add everything now I intended on adding, and let it sit fallow from the last coral 72 days?
<... please search the following on WWM: Three Sets of Factors (that determine livestock health); and read>
Thanks
re: Sps and Ich 3/29/16
Sorry Bob, using my phone to write emails makes me sound incompetent.

I am going to go at least 60 days, to allow the Tomonts to hatch out completely.
<Okay>
My question was, is if I acquire frags from fellow reefers, do I reset that 60 day clock from the last frag I would add in ( whether it's tomorrow or next month) my fear is any new timing that comes in, not the ones I have presently that hopefully hatched out and are looking for hosts.
<Mmm; I'd isolate all incoming for a week or two; run them through a dip/bath... mostly iodide-ate at a thousandth lower spg....>
Knowing a third tank, or second qt is not practical for me, I almost need to add everything now coral wise, as opposed to wasting two months only to add it in then and have one Ich tomont reach the tank.
<Well; who is to say that Crypt will be virulent from such an introduction... Rest-assured it IS permanently in your main display... IF you'd just read where I send you. Goodbye>
I was thinking any frag I get, cut off plug, and rinse the coral in
saltwater 4-5 times to hopefully lift and remove possible Ich (whatever
stage might be attached in it)
I certainly read quite often, but you mainly read fish quarantining,
eliminating Ich being introduced, but little on the other wet inhabitants
that could bring some with it.
Back to the forums, thanks for your time
I can certainly see why the LFS never discuss this, they would be out of
business if they told people to wait 60 days for coral to be added in from
qt.

Dealing with exceptionally hardy strain of crypt? Impt. notes re Quinines; old Amquel toxicity 11/12/15
Hi Crew,
I've been happily reading your site for several years now and am grateful for all of the information. Ever since Ich entered my 170g reef almost two years ago before I learned to properly QT, I've been fighting it with just about every method in the book, including many "reef-safe" snake oils, but also QT with hypo, Chloroquine, and quinine...sometimes keeping the fish in
the DT while removing LR and corals, others removing fish to QT and letting the DT go fallow.
<With you so far>
I've blamed failures on everything from not keeping medication levels high enough, to keeping the QT and DT to close together so that aerosolized crypt could move between the two systems.
<Interesting speculation. More likely resident/residual infestation. Most systems have this/them>
I've also demonstrated through studies in a lab with good equipment that Chloroquine degrades super fast leaving behind an inactive molecule in my tank (I was monitoring by HPLC , and I believe, based on changes in CPQ behavior over a year, that a microbe capable of detoxifying Chloroquine either entered or evolved in my system...more about that another time, but high levels of the degradation do appear to be toxic to Zebrasoma tangs).

I now know that quinine is perfectly stable in my system and that the concentration remains constant after dosing regardless of skimmer or keeping lights on. It clearly wipes out any visible Ich on my fish within 24 hours and prevents the return until removed. Unfortunately, as you already know, it dos nothing for the inactive cyst stage, and I find that certain tangs (particularly Zebrasoma) begin to show signs of drug toxicity after about a week (labored breathing, failure to eat, general listlessness) but they recover fully withi8n a day of being moved to a system without quinine.

SO....I still have Ich. I just completed a 13 week fallow (no new coral or other additions), my QT and DT are far apart, precautions were taken to heat-sterilize anything that went from one tank to another, etc. I moved a Kole tang with no visible signs of Ich from QT to the DT.
<Note the qualifier, "no visible signs">
He had been at high quinine concentration for the previous five days and was allowed an hour in the quinine containing water during the transfer process, just in case there were any random cysts that had just hatched so that the new hatchlings would have time to die from high drug exposure.
About a week later, the first small blotch appeared, looking nothing like Ich.
<You should sample, check under a microscope>
Couple more blotches (as opposed to raised sugar grains) appeared here and there until this morning when I clearly saw some raised sugary grains. So, it's back to QT for him, and I'll have quinine in the tank to make sure that anything on him dies before it can re-encyst and live to infect another fish.
Finally to my question: Would you let this DT go fallow for 6 months?
<As long as possible, practical... more likely, with no desired life present, I'd bleach all and restart it>
A year? Or sacrifice your corals, cook your live rock, empty the DT, and go over every component with a hair dryer to make sure not so much as a single drop of water remains anywhere in the general vicinity?
<No; I would not go this far. Just as likely to (re) import Crypt w/ new fishes>
I have also considered periodically placing an Ich-resistant fish in an isolation box within the tank in case this strain requires fish hormones to break dormancy. I realize all of this might seem extreme, but I seem to have a real survivor here and the theory of crypt weakening after a year of successive generations seems to either be wrong, or to not apply to this strain.
The good news is that my fish seem to be real survivors....though I did lose many to a bad batch of Amquel plus, which I will write about separately.
<To/for browsers; DO give your polyvinylpyrrolidone solutions (commercial dechloraminators often contain) a "good whiff" and if they smell, toss rather than use them>
I would greatly appreciate any advice here.
Thank you
<I'd have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and a few of the linked files above.... for solace, input. I'd strive to "keep balance" in your/fishes favor here; through optimized care: environment and nutrition; use of cleaners.... Bob Fenner>

Cupramine in display tank and ammonia; rdg. 10/21/15
Hi
I'm currently fighting marine Ich in my mixed reef tank. (400gal).
<No fun; have you read re the use of Quinines?>
I wanted to know if I removed all corals and inverts from DT and treated the DT with Cupramine, will that be fine?
<Fine? Not fine.... trouble when you go to reintroduce these from the copper leaching back out.... You should read, really>
Or will the copper kill of all other organisms and cause an ammonia spike?
Most of my fish are tangs
Thank you in advance Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Smartphone.
<Here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to Parasites, Protozoans, Cryptocaryon.... Bob Fenner>

Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper, formalin, malachite, NNS; Crypt 10/7/15
Dear crew,
In my aquarium, that have for about 5 years now, I have a Naso for 5yrs , one Blueface for 2yrs, one Apolemichthys trimaculatus for 4years now, one Zebrasoma flavescens (around 10 years now, came from another aquarium I had) and now a Choerodon fasciatus from Australia.
Well, this 500liters tank is a mixed of fish, inverts and some corals.
Very good water quality, very good light, very good skimmer and for some extra control some months ago a 55W UV (AquaMedic).
Well the problem is I have some, very few signs of crypto. The Naso have one eye with a little cloudy white circle one eye but very little, already for 2 weeks aprox. Only with the 250W on we can see this signs.
Yes, the Choerodon fasciatus is for sure the reason, maybe indirectly. Of course, 4 weeks on quarantine tank before I put this fish at the DP tank, at the first time he show some stress, after two days he went again for the qt tank and one week later he went again in de DP tank, with more confidence.
Well, even with these measures, he wake up some ict of the thank and the pectoral fins of this fish are now with some white areas.
So, all inverts and coral went to another tank (yes, these fishes are my top concern and I prefer to treat the DP tank like I did some years ago and after treatment, water changes, SeaChem resigns and after one month, the inverts and coral can go again, with some live rock (also quarantined) to.
In another situations for sure the fish should go to another tank, be treated and the display for at least 8 weeks without any fish. In this situation, the Naso elegans is already with 30cm, and I prefer to maintain all the fish in the same tank)
I changed the specific gravity to around 1.012, and Chloroquine at 15mg/liter (I have a kern 440 21N to weigh fish drugs).
<Ah, good>
After two days, no much betters signs in any. No Ammonia at the thank and all SeaChem resigns was retired, uv off etc.
When I change water I add the proportional amount of Chloroquine.
Well because I still have no positive signs of, I am thinking of also put half dose of Cuprazin (have copper, formalin and malachite) or at least, add sulfathiazole with the Chloroquine.
Normally when the fish have cloudy eyes or some skin red areas like one Zebrasoma some years ago, I use sulfathiazole, alone, at rate of 1gr /100 Liters for 3 days. Do you know if sulfathiazole can be used at this ratio, simultaneously with 15mg/liter of Chloroquine (Resochina)?
<It can be.... but I'd first or only try adding the CP to foods rather than the water... at a higher dose possibly... as the real drug strength does vary quite a bit.... and getting the drug INTO the fishes is what you want>
Many thanks
Manuel Dias
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 10/8/15
Dear Bob,
Thanks for your reply.
I started with Chloroquine in the food (16mg over 1gr of food).

Dissolved in water and put it in dry ocean nutrition formula pellets, Nori and even in shrimp for the Choerodon, however, after initial days, no signs of any result. Al least visible. The Naso elegans with one eye a little cloudy and also with one or two white spots in one eye.
<Do you have access to a simple microscope? I'd sample (scrape) some of these spots off and take a look. May not be Crypt; but possibly Flukes, other Protozoans....>
The Choerodon a little worst with the front fins with some cloudy areas and the Apolemichthys had to receive a 15min freshwater bath. But day yes day no I still put Chloroquine in food.
I am convicted that if I put all fishes in que QT tanks soon all this symptoms go away but, these fishes in particular are somehow difficult fishes to change tank.
For example the blueface, some years ago, because he change from the tank, stayed with lymphocitose at such level I really thought about euthanasia. I had difficult only to see the fish so was the size of the nodules. Well, very quiet tank, only for him, scraped a couple times with iodine after (betadine) and weeks later all nodules had gone.
<Good; cleaner organisms often work as well>
Since that time and years after, never happened again beside the virus if still there for sure. (and well this angel is now strong, the dominant fish of the tank, but, the Naso do not have afraid of him, and neither the more than 10 years old Zebrasoma flavescens. I have in another aquarium another Flavescens that I bought, already adult, 15 years ago. So, I do not know how many years they live but for my experience, between 15 and 20 years for sure.
<Yes>
So I´m afraid of moving this fishes out of DT.
I will try Cuprazin at half dose
<Only full doses are worthwhile, and need to be measured, re-dosed at least twice daily.... absorbed by carbonate substrate, rock... and removed by skimming, UV....>
and start skimmer at low power but with the cup (the skimmer is always at full power during treatment but the water goes all again into the tank, just to help to maintain a good dissolved O2) , and I will continue with Chloroquine in food and water, SG at 1,012 and 27ºC.
I will give news (good news I hope)
<Me too>
At Cuprazin bottle (concentrate professional 1 liter) it says do not use in systems containing sharks, rays, harlequin Tuskfish (Choerodon fasciatus)
<Wrasses, Labrids don't "like" copper exposure, but.... better than losing the fish. Keep monitoring, and dosage at 0.15-0.30 maximum>
... well when this fish arrived, was in quarantine, and during that time, for at least 6 days he was with cooper, formalin and malachite at half dose... Do you Bob, have some testimonial regarding intolerance of fasciatus to cooper, formalin or green malachite?

Many thanks
Manuel
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 10/8/15
Hi Bob,
Thanks again,
Since early 90´s I have saltwater reef fishes and corals but this is the first time I have one Choerodon Fasciatus. From Australia with al least 20cm is beautiful. The largest I ever saw. He is able to eat a small crab or destroy a shrimp is seconds but, do not treat any of the others fishes even if them push him out of their zone or even when the blueface make the move (and noise) trying to bite a little the caudal fin of the fasciatus, he only swim a little and do not bother responding. So I do not know if these specie is like this but at least this fish, beside those teeth, are very gentle al least for now.
<Most are peaceful toward other fishes>
Yes, I have a CETI TOPIC with 0.1 , 10, 40 and 100/1.25 oil immersion lens but this cloudy eye or the cloudy fins are very difficult to scrap because there is very little to scrap. The blueface are either with a little cloudy area (1mm) in the center of one eye.
<Scrape near the eye, but not the actual lens itself>
Sometimes I cut some piece of fins for example but in this case the amount is very little.
Regarding copper I have very difficult to trust SeaChem or JBL tests enough. I´m afraid the small colour variations are not reliable enough and I do not want to overdose.
<For what you have invested; I'd be looking into better assays. IF you want/like colorimetric SEE here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/martstkitfaqs.htm
Look for Hach, Merck....>
And accepting that this may not be the right way, past years I had good results with half doses and low SG and changing fishes between small plastic containers or aquariums each 24 hours. But yes, I never had absolute certain in any of my tanks that I had exterminate for good this crypto parasite.
<Me neither>
Only when the fish are really at danger and that is very rare, I change them almost daily with new water and new dose of cooper like the manufacturer suggest or with stock solution of 4.0 gr distilled water with 0,25 of acid citric but, .
So in QT tanks, I usually put them in low SG, and a little of formalin, copper and malachite in the water and perform when needed some baths, but not much. Days after Metronidazole and if need, one week later neomycin.
I don´t know if for example Hanna Instruments already have a digital cooper test ...
<Can look.... have a few.... here's a suitably low-range: http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hanna-instruments/chemical-test-kits/single-parameter/hi-3856.htm
But these fishes are in treatment in my DP tank... for good or bad.....
If these cloudy areas may not be crypto, but flukes or other Protozoans like you wrote , what is the best treatment?
<.... have to know "what" you're treating....>
I will continue with Chloroquine in food and water or can I do something else?

Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 10/8/15
"I might add a standard dose (one shot/time) of Metronidazole and Praziquantel here as well "Metronidazole 700mg/100liter for 3 days and Praziquantel 250mg/100g food over one week?
<Okay>
The tank is with Chloroquine 15mg/liter , Chloroquine food day yes day no, and Cuprazin half dose. So, I will buy decent cooper test kit (have to see it it reads sulfate cooper, chelated or complexed cooper from SeaChem Cupramine) but in the meantime, I will take your advise that I really appreciate Bob whatever the results will be, and simultaneously to Chloroquine and Cuprazin already there, I will add Metronidazole 700mg/100liter for 3 days and Praziquantel 250mg/100g food over one week?
<Again....>
Correct? Partial change in water for example tomorrow, Metronidazole and after 3 days another partial water change always maintaining some Cuprazin and 15mg/liter Chloroquine.
<Real good. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 10/16/15
Dear Bob,
After some days with Praziquantel on the food, and without any other medication on the water and still with low salinity 1.018, all fishes are in good (out of danger) shape but, still with some cloudy eyes and the Choerodon with several signs of crypto.
<So....>
Finally the Choerodon are swimming very adapted to the new aquarium but, because he is with crypto, maybe I will put him in quarantine tank again... maybe with Cuprazin or two weeks with Chloroquine. I have no experience with this fish. He is eating very well, live shrimp, ocean nutrition pellets etc but , like I said, with very signs of crypto.
What you think Bob?
<I'd leave all in place; NOT move>
Thanks
Best regards
<Welcome. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 10/19/15
Dear Bob,
Today Monday, after about 5/6 days with Praziquantel only, all fishes are better, with less cloudy eyes. If this recovery continues, maybe in two days all signs of cloudy eyes have gone (I hope).
I follow your advice with the Australian Choerodon, remaining in the display tank, and the fish is also with less signs of crypto (but still with). None of the other fishes seems affected with crypto.
I did some collection of fish faeces and through the microscope nothing pathogenic was detected.
I will continue with Praziquantel until day 10 and after some days I will start with Chloroquine but only in food.
Thanks
Best regards
J. Manuel
<Thank you for this report. B>
Re: Chloroquine/sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 10/30/15
Dear Bob,
<J>
The news are not very good.
Almost all fishes are good, without cloudy eyes, but after several days with Praziquantel and after with Chloroquine (always only in food), the Choerodon is still with white spots and today I notice that my lovely blueface is with the anus area swollen enough to be preocupating.
<.... do you have access to a microscope there? Have we chatted re sampling, sending some pix along?>
I turned off the UV, SeaChem resigns out and started with sulphatiazole 1g/100Liters for 3 days.
Really do not know what is happening.
<Can't tell anything from the lack of data here; sorry. Bob Fenner>
Best regards
J. Manuel
Re: Chloroquine/Sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 11/3/15
Dear Bob,
<J.>
Today and after sulphatiazole, all fishes are really looking good, (with no cloudy eyes and even the blueface are without the anus area swollen) except the Choerodon who is still with white spots.
<... which are?>
I will make a 30% water change and, if after a few days I do not see improvement, I will put the Choerodon in another aquarium.
Many thanks
Best regards,
J. Manuel
<BobF>
Re: Chloroquine/Sulfathiazole or Chloroquine/Cuprazin(50%)copper,formalin,malaquite 11/3/15
Well, it seems crypto to me.

A little bigger than usual yes, but crypto.
Maybe tomorrow I will scrap a little and try to find out with the microscope.
<YAY!>
Best regards
J. Manuel
<And you. B. Fenner>

Overwhelmed by Ich 10/6/15
Dear Crew,
After 7 years since my last dealings with ich, my complacency has come to bite me in the butt. I just ordered a bunch of fish(Flame Angel, Regal Tang, Sailfin Tang, Starry Blenny, two Banggai Cardinals, and a McCosker's Flasher Wrasse) to add to my current 265 gallon residents (pair of Ocellaris, Royal Gramma, Pygmy Angelfish, three Pajama Cardinals, four Green
Chromis, and a female Pink Square Anthias (her fellow friends didn't make the shipment)). It appears the Regal Tang is affected the most, but the Sailfin and Flame Angel also have spots.
I have spent the last 10 hours reading about options, outcomes , and I really want to crawl in a corner. On the bright side, the idea of a quarantine tank seemed like a huge undergoing, but I know now how simple it can be! I have read much about hyposalinity on your site, and it seems to have merit by some, but the majority of you don't trust it. I removed most
of my inverts to my fallow tank. I was planning on dropping my display tank salinity down to 1.012 at least until I came up with another plan.
<Good idea>
Maybe I have this wrong, but my interpretation from all of my reading is that hyposalinity is a good way of controlling ich but not eradicating it. My plan was to then set up a quarantine system on my lanai (hoping that October in Tampa Bay Florida will sustain an adequate temperature) in which I could treat them with copper, if that is what you would suggest. Perhaps a
quarantine for two months of a salinity of 1.009 could rid the parasites without copper?
<Doubtful; but possibly your fishes might develop sufficient resistance...>
After two months I could then drip acclimate my fish from their 1.009 to the display of 1.012, and then everyone up to 1.025 over the course of a few days. My concern with copper is the lack of biological filtration and all the problems that would create. I read to help maintain proper ph during this time that baking soda is the better way to buffer rather than the two
part system I currently use, correct?
<... not necessarily; no>
Would UV help or merely add to my dwindling funds with little return of results?
<Would help.... Do read re the use of Quinines>
Please forgive my rambling. I am horribly unfamiliar with this and would hate to make a really bad scenario WORSE because I misinterpreted research. Please help!
Always grateful, Alyssa
<The hypo for now; and more reading.... and use of your spelling/grammar checker going forward. Bob Fenner>

Ich, to treat or not to treat? 8/31/15
Hello WWM Crew,
Thanks for all the valuable info on this site and helping us keep our tanks healthy. Here is my situation. I have a 90g reef tank that has been up and running for 8 years with no problems, thanks to WWM. I have a Yellow Tang that has been in there for 2 years and no problems with him. He acclimated well, no Ich or black spot and is getting big and fat. I recently bought some Blue Reef Chromis(cyanea)and had them in QT until I read it was better to FW dip and place them in the main display, so I did.
Well my Royal Gramma killed them and I didn't have enough time to get them out. About a week later my Tang developed some white spots, ragged fins, scratching and visiting the cleaner shrimp but was still eating like a pig so I thought it is Ich. There were no changes in my water parameters stable as usual. I removed him and gave him a 14 minute FW dip and place him in a tank with new saltwater that has being running and is cycled. About 2 days after the dip he started eating and acting normal. The white spots that I thought were Ich haven't returned as of yet. The more I read about Ich I think it might not have been Ich because the spots were more like white head pimples ready to be popped. I bought some Cupramine, a copper test kit and some Methylene Blue but I'm not sure what the best thing to do is.
<Good... to be not sure>
After reading about Tangs and copper I am wondering if it would be better to just FW dip him again and place him in the main display or treat him with copper if he might not need it. The only symptom he exhibits now is he swims across the tank and does the shaky dance, but this might be because he is in a 20g long(too small). In your expert opinion what would you do?
<Not treat... the system will be worse for wear... read re the use of CP (Chloroquine), and treat via food>
Also none of my other fish were inflicted with this they are all doing well. Thanks in advance for your valuable expertise and time. Brian
<Do please keep me/us informed. Bob Fenner>
RE: Ich, to treat or not to treat? 8/31/15
Hi Mr. Fenner,
Thanks for the info. I will look for CP tomorrow.
<Good>
I also purchased NLS Ick Shield which is supposed to contain CP but I was reading from a post in February 2015 that you didn't have any experience with it, have you any info on this product since then?

Thanks
Brian
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich, to treat or not to treat? 8/31/15
Hi Bob,
I've been reading more about the NLS Ick Shield pellets and Ian Tepoot says that it contains ingredients from the Chloroquine group. My tang has been eating these pellets. There is also NLS Ick Shield powder which contains the same. Reading about the powder if I can't find CP I think the NLS powder would be the next best thing. I will keep you informed as I am
going out to find CP. Thanks so much for your interest in my dilemma.
Brian
<Welcome. BobF>

Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon? 8/18/15
Hi Bob,
<Matt>
Well it's been quite a while since we corresponded last October regarding a 2 month hyposalinity treatment being ineffective at eradicating Cryptocaryon.
<Okay>
I wanted to drop you a line about progress- I dropped the salinity of that tank back down to 1.011 for about 3-4 months. During that time, I removed a large (8+ inch) and mean powder blue tang. This past spring, I brought the salinity back up to 1.015, and here we are months later, and I have yet to see a single spot on anyone. So I'm declaring victory.
<Yay!>
Also, I was finding that orders from LiveAquaria were coming in with some pretty nasty and lethal diseases (probably Uronema), and it was destroying everything I had undergoing quarantine.
<Yikes... did you write them re? So they might contact their supplier/s in turn? Am bcc'ing Kevin Kohen here>
After some research, I've started using Chloroquine phosphate in my quarantine tanks, and holy cow what a difference. The Chloroquine is exactly what I've been looking for in a treatment- stopped all losses and is very easy to use.
<Ah yes... you will find I'm a huge fan...>
Enjoy the rest of your summer!
-Matt
<Oh yes; and you. Bob Fenner>
Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon? 8/18/15
Hi Bob,
<Hello again Matt>
Thanks for your response. I had contacted LiveAquaria about the losses, and they just responded with form letters.
<Mmm; am sure they appreciate the data input just the same>
I have a hunch that it was carried in on the section of the orders that came from ORA (2 percula clowns). I tried two or three times to order clowns through them, and each time the clowns were panting on arrival, never looked vigorous, and then they'd both be dead suddenly, along with many if not all of their tankmates.
<Strange.... ORA has a strict system of protocols to avoid such troubles.... isolates ALL incoming wild-stocks from cultured>
My assistant is the fish manager of a local PetCo, and he had the exact same thing happen when he received ORA clowns.
<Mmmm.... am very familiar w/ PetCo.... and mixing shipments, mingling new livestock in infested systems are very real possible sources of trouble here>
Now, here's the real crazy part-whole scenario start to finish- Empty 40 gallon quarantine tank. Order arrives on a Thursday. Lemonpeel angel, yellow tang, Kole tang and two ora clowns go in, along with some peppermint shrimp. On Saturday, everyone looks good, and 3 peppermint shrimp are removed and placed into a Client's tank with 5 seahorses from OceanRider, as well as 4 amazing pipefish, all of which have been in place over 8 months.
On Sunday evening, Lemonpeel angel shows lesion on right side with some small signs of hemorrhage (red lines). Monday morning, Kole tang, clowns, yellow tang and Lemonpeel are all dead. Tuesday morning, 3 seahorses and 4 pipefish are dead in the clients tank. Thursday morning, remaining 2 seahorses are dead in the clients tank. So, ultimately I took the heat for
the lost seahorses and the pipefish. I couldn't believe how virulent this disease was and how fast. -Matt
<Yikes... does "read" like Uronema. I'd get/use a microscope, buy at least Ed Noga first or second ed... for reference. Bob Fenner>
Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon? 8/18/15
Yes, I do have Noga on my desk. Very good stuff. I've since lent it to my assistant.
<Ahh>
Actually, my assistant, the fish manager at PetCo is an interesting source. Petco policy does not allow him to quarantine new arrivals, or use any medications other than freshwater dips.
However...
He has two tanks isolated that he puts all new arrivals into for minimum 10 days, with formalin running. His survival/profitability numbers are far higher than any other PetCo store, and the powers that be have noticed. He has basically been told that they like what he's doing, and that they don't want to know what he's doing.
Pretty messed up. Petco shouldn't be allowed to sell fish if you ask me.
<Better than Wal-Mart; still not great except a few stores. B>
-Matt

Ich, QT, Treatment 8/16/15
Hello WWM Crew,
First a big thank-you to all crew members for all the help you provide.
I have been reading about Ich, Qt, FW dips and treatment for the last week and I am confused and not sure if I understand correctly. I read a response to a reader from 2006 that if a fish has Ich and you FW dip him and place into a clean QT tank free of pathogens then the fish should be cured of Ich, is this correct or do you still have to treat with copper?
<I'd still treat with copper. Understand THIS: that Crypt can be so deeply embedded that freshwater exposure, even FW plus formalin, may not remove all external parasitic stages>
I also read a response that C. Cyanea should not be QT due to stress and just FW dipped and placed into DT, is this correct?
<Which "C." is this? The damsel? The answer might be "sometimes" if so>
And finally, if you FW dip a fish and place in QT he should not be treated with chemicals unless there is reason to do so, and after one month of QT if there are no signs of problems you can FW dip and place in DT, is this correct?
<You can as in the word "can"; but each case must be examined, considered independently. Most of the time if fishes are (after isolation, w/ or w/o dipping/bathing protocols) it is not worthwhile to expose them to anti-protozoal treatments; but instead, expedite their movement to permanent main/displays>
Thanks in advance again to all.
Brian
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich, QT, Treatment 8/16/15
Hello Crew,
The "C" I was referring to was the Chromis Cyanea(Blue Chromis).
<Ah yes; these ARE often lost in "simple handling"... best to expedite; not treat or quarantine at all>
Thanks so much for the quick response and info.
<Certainly welcome. Thank you for sharing. BobF>
Brian

Display tank with Ich 7/30/15
Hi,
<Kate>
I have a display tank that has several tangs show size and have two young sharks, a coral cat and baby brown banded. I have a qt system setup but it cannot hold all of the fish at one time to treat. I want to treat the tank
with ParaGuard and I was informed by my LFS, I know not to use copper meds or any harsh meds with the sharks, but was unsure if I could use ParaGuard.
Any help or guidance is much appreciated!
Kate
<A tough case/scenario.... tangs and sharks....
http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/ParaGuard.html
the Malachite is of concern.... IF it were me, mine, knowing what little you have stated, not knowing what you know....I'd separate and treat the Tangs in isolation (see WWM re SOPs); and NOT expose the sharks... perhaps
try reduced specific gravity to slant the advantage to the Elasmobranchs.... wait a few weeks... and seek a balance twixt the resident Crypt infestation and their host fishes going forward.... optimizing and emphasizing stable environment, boosted immunity through nutrition (again, reading on WWM Re). Bob Fenner>
Re: Display tank with Ich 7/30/15
What SG do you recommend?
<Please see WWM re Hyposalinity. Sorry, but have got to scoot to the airport; back from Curacao... will respond tomorrow. B>
I keep this tank (fish only) at 1.021. I feed the tangs Nori sheets 3x a day and soak the food in garlic, Zoë, and Vit C. The temp is kept at 76 degrees. The only ones effected are the tangs. My sharks do not have any parasites/disease. The tangs that are effected are my Acanthurus tangs only, not my Naso or vlamingii tangs. I have a cleaner wrasse in the tank and the tangs are all eating very well and acting normal. Advice I have received is not treat and just let them be and soak food (which I already do), treat with ParaGuard for whole system. I qt each fish before it is introduced into this tank but it is never guaranteed to always kill everything.
Re: Display tank with Ich 7/31/15
What SG do you recommend? I keep this tank (fish only) at 1.021.
<Have you read on WWM as yet?>
I feed the tangs Nori sheets 3x a day and soak the food in garlic, Zoë, and Vit C. The temp is kept at 76 degrees. The only ones effected are the tangs.
<Typical>
My sharks do not have any parasites/disease.
<Ah, no; they just don't show clinical signs...>
The tangs that are effected are my Acanthurus tangs only, not my Naso or vlamingii tangs. I have a cleaner wrasse in the tank and the tangs are all eating very well and acting normal. Advice I have received is not treat and just let them be and soak food (which I already do),
<One route to go; also covered on WWM>
treat with ParaGuard for whole system. I qt each fish before it is introduced into this tank but it is never guaranteed to always kill everything.
<Time for you to read. B>
Fwd: Display tank with Ich 7/31/15
> What SG do you recommend? I keep this tank (fish only) at 1.021. I feed
the tangs Nori sheets 3x a day and soak the food in garlic, Zoë, and Vit C.
The temp is kept at 76 degrees. The only ones effected are the tangs. My
sharks do not have any parasites/disease. The tangs that are effected are
my Acanthurus tangs only, not my Naso or vlamingii tangs. I have a cleaner
wrasse in the tank and the tangs are all eating very well and acting
normal. Advice I have received is not treat and just let them be and soak
food (which I already do), treat with ParaGuard for whole system. I qt each
fish before it is introduced into this tank but it is never guaranteed to
always kill everything. I contacted Seachem and this was their suggestion but I didn't know how correct this statement was:
Thank you for your email. You can use Paraguard to treat sharks, but we would recommend that you begin with a 1/4 to 1/2 dose and to slowly build to the recommended dose. This will allow the shark time to acclimate to the addition of the medication while allowing you to be able to monitor the shark for signs of stress.
<... not the route I would go; but thank you for sharing. B>
Thanks for your help!
Kate

Acclimating and Treating fish, comm. 7/7/15
Hello
<Hola!>
My name is Dani and I have an aquarium shop in Barcelona. I want to ask you a couple of questions:
First of all is about how to acclimate fishes arriving from a transshipping order (more than 48 h packed in the bags). I see your Guerrilla method but I'm not sure if I understand it completely.
<Let's see>
What I have to do is:
1. When the fishes arrives open boxes and float the bags to compensate temperature. Also check ph and ammonia in the shipping water.
2. Get some saltwater and adjust with the same PH in the shipping water 3. Put the fishes with shipping water in a container and drip the adjusted ph new saltwater and check ammonia until it disappear.
4. When the ammonia in the container is 0 I have to drip water from my system to the container until the ph in the container raises to the same ph in the system.
5. When the container has the same PH in the system we can make a freshwater (with adjusted ph and Methylene blue) bath and after the bath the fishes will be ready to go to main system.
<Yes! Well done. IF the fishes appear too weak to do step 5, place them in a marine system, and come back a day or two later to effect the pH adjusted freshwater dips/baths>
It is correct? I get new fishes on Friday so I can use this method for the first time with this shipment.
<Good>
The other question is about treating fish. I have a system of about 2500 liters connected to a sump with 2x39w UV, ozonizer, a large skimmer and a fluidised sand bed filter. Actually the water parameters are perfect (in my opinion) Ammonia and Nitrite undetectable, Nitrate under 5 and salinity at 1020. The problem is that when I introduce new fishes... some of they get Whitespot very quickly and dies within days.
<The reason for 1) Selecting the best species, 2) Selecting the best specimens... from the best locations and dealers... and 3) Expediting their processing.... and 4 onward; providing the best, most stable, optimized conditions; good nutrition....>
I don't know what to do.... maybe threat the entire system with Cupramine?

Put more ozone and raise the RedOx?
<Yes; up to about 400 micro Siemens per cm.>
Maybe the fishes are in bad condition because I make bad acclimation?
<Possibly; or not from a good dealer....>
(I don't use the guerrilla method yet.... I usually acclimate the fishes just dropping system water to the shipping bags).
<Ah, no... bad. Too easily to burn them this way>
I'm afraid because it's very bad to display a system with fishes with white spot, but I don't know what to do in this case ^^
<The above acclimation SOP>
Thank you so much for the fantastic site, it's very helpful! And sorry for my bad English, I hope you can understand me :)

Regards from the sunny Barcelona!
<Nos vemos as we say here in S. California (next to Mexico). Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish 7/7/15
Hi Bob
<Hey Mas>
Thank you for your quick reply.
<De nada>
About the SOP, all ok, I will try it with our next shipment.
<Good... I will tell you that amongst all my written efforts, getting folks in the trade to adapt/adopt this procedure is likely my most important. If and when we can and will provide better livestock, the business WILL grow. Alternatively, all these years, losing a huge part of the hobbyists due to "anomalous" losses has kept all back>
About the white spot, I think that my vet can prepare a solution with quinine... can you tell me more about that?
<Yes; though it will take too long. Instead I would have you, they read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
and the linked files above, AND elsewhere on the Net... look for Chloroquine (di)Phosphate>
For the good nutrition on the fishes, I feed 2xday with varied diet (mysis,
Artemia, Krill, ... mixed items from Gamma frozen foods, also mixed Fauna Marin pellets food and flakes for herbivores, and live copepods for Synchiropus and other finicky eaters) I hope that this is correct?
<Yes; good products, choices>
I also enrich the food 1xday with ESHa Minaroll (a polivitaminic and minerals solution)
<Outstanding>
My major worry today is to kill the existent white spot that I have in the system... If you think that quinine will be better than Cupramine I will try it.
<Well; we should talk regarding this. IF the entrenched infestation is "very bad"; I/we in the collection side REALLY do at times "nuke" the system (bleach it most often.... hypochlorite, chlorine bleach) and start again.... IF not so bad... and fish only (no algae, invert.s, plants, nor sensitive fishes... like clowns, tube-mouths...) chelated copper at full strength, checked twice daily for concentration and topped off; is the route I would go... All incoming dipped/bathed to prevent introduction. Comprende?>
Thanks!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish 7/18/15
Hi Bob, it's Dani again
<Howsit?>
I spend all the week reading lot of information about treating ich with "Chloroquine Phosphate" but there is a lot of info around the web I see that this product will be ok for treating ich and also for use as prophylactic method, what do you think about that?
<Tis so>
If I understand I have to use 15-20 mg/L of Chloroquine Phosphate in our system every 10 days and always do a 10-15% water change prior to a new dosage.
<Yes>
Do you think that this will help? Are this dosages and times correct?
<About>
Thank you!!
P.D. I use the SOP acclimation in our two last shipments without any problems, buy I still having Whitespot in our system :(
<Dang! Entrenched infestations can be VERY hard to eradicate. Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish 7/21/15
Hi Again
<Mes>
Just a little question:
I get some Chloroquine from pharmacy, they're pills that contain 250 mg of Chloroquine diphosphate ( equivalent to 155 mg of "base Chloroquine") and also each pill contain some excipients like cornstarch, talc, magnesium esstearatum, hipromelosa, macrogol 400 and titanium dioxide.
<Ah yes>
This excipients will harm any of the fishes?
<They are not>
Or can I use without problem?
About the dosage... I have to calculate with 250 mg of Chloroquine diphosphate or like 150 mg of Chloroquine base? I think that with the 250 Chloroquine diphosphate, but I'm not sure
<This is about right; though considering the whole 250 mg.s as useful will not be problematical... There's a bunch of displacement and miscalculation of volume of treated water....>
Thank you!!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Acclimating and Treating fish, comm. 7/7/15
Hello
<Hola!>
My name is Dani and I have an aquarium shop in Barcelona. I want to ask you a couple of questions:
First of all is about how to acclimate fishes arriving from a transshipping order (more than 48 h packed in the bags). I see your Guerrilla method but I'm not sure if I understand it completely.
<Let's see>
What I have to do is:
1. When the fishes arrives open boxes and float the bags to compensate temperature. Also check ph and ammonia in the shipping water.
2. Get some saltwater and adjust with the same PH in the shipping water 3. Put the fishes with shipping water in a container and drip the adjusted ph new saltwater and check ammonia until it disappear.
4. When the ammonia in the container is 0 I have to drip water from my system to the container until the ph in the container raises to the same ph in the system.
5. When the container has the same PH in the system we can make a freshwater (with adjusted ph and Methylene blue) bath and after the bath the fishes will be ready to go to main system.
<Yes! Well done. IF the fishes appear too weak to do step 5, place them in a marine system, and come back a day or two later to effect the pH adjusted freshwater dips/baths>
It is correct? I get new fishes on Friday so I can use this method for the first time with this shipment.
<Good>
The other question is about treating fish. I have a system of about 2500 liters connected to a sump with 2x39w UV, ozonizer, a large skimmer and a fluidised sand bed filter. Actually the water parameters are perfect (in my opinion) Ammonia and Nitrite undetectable, Nitrate under 5 and salinity at 1020. The problem is that when I introduce new fishes... some of they get Whitespot very quickly and dies within days.
<The reason for 1) Selecting the best species, 2) Selecting the best specimens... from the best locations and dealers... and 3) Expediting their processing.... and 4 onward; providing the best, most stable, optimized conditions; good nutrition....>
I don't know what to do.... maybe threat the entire system with Cupramine?

Put more ozone and raise the RedOx?
<Yes; up to about 400 micro Siemens per cm.>
Maybe the fishes are in bad condition because I make bad acclimation?
<Possibly; or not from a good dealer....>
(I don't use the guerrilla method yet.... I usually acclimate the fishes just dropping system water to the shipping bags).
<Ah, no... bad. Too easily to burn them this way>
I'm afraid because it's very bad to display a system with fishes with white spot, but I don't know what to do in this case ^^
<The above acclimation SOP>
Thank you so much for the fantastic site, it's very helpful! And sorry for my bad English, I hope you can understand me :)

Regards from the sunny Barcelona!
<Nos vemos as we say here in S. California (next to Mexico). Bob Fenner>
Re: Acclimating and Treating fish 7/7/15
Hi Bob
<Hey Mas>
Thank you for your quick reply.
<De nada>
About the SOP, all ok, I will try it with our next shipment.
<Good... I will tell you that amongst all my written efforts, getting folks in the trade to adapt/adopt this procedure is likely my most important. If and when we can and will provide better livestock, the business WILL grow. Alternatively, all these years, losing a huge part of the hobbyists due to "anomalous" losses has kept all back>
About the white spot, I think that my vet can prepare a solution with quinine... can you tell me more about that?
<Yes; though it will take too long. Instead I would have you, they read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
and the linked files above, AND elsewhere on the Net... look for Chloroquine (di)Phosphate>
For the good nutrition on the fishes, I feed 2xday with varied diet (mysis,
Artemia, Krill, ... mixed items from Gamma frozen foods, also mixed Fauna Marin pellets food and flakes for herbivores, and live copepods for Synchiropus and other finicky eaters) I hope that this is correct?
<Yes; good products, choices>
I also enrich the food 1xday with ESHa Minaroll (a polivitaminic and minerals solution)
<Outstanding>
My major worry today is to kill the existent white spot that I have in the system... If you think that quinine will be better than Cupramine I will try it.
<Well; we should talk regarding this. IF the entrenched infestation is "very bad"; I/we in the collection side REALLY do at times "nuke" the system (bleach it most often.... hypochlorite, chlorine bleach) and start again.... IF not so bad... and fish only (no algae, invert.s, plants, nor sensitive fishes... like clowns, tube-mouths...) chelated copper at full strength, checked twice daily for concentration and topped off; is the route I would go... All incoming dipped/bathed to prevent introduction. Comprende?>
Thanks!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

ich; SW 7/2/15
Hello crew,
<Ed>
I am pretty sure my main reef display tank has developed ich.
<No fun>
I will be removing all of my fish to a hospital tank for treatment but I have one question. After removing all of my fish for the six to ten week duration from my main display tank do I need to feed the tank with a source of ammonia some how to keep the tank cycled? or can I just leave it alone?
<Likely nothing to add>
keep in mind that the existing live rock, sand and corals will remain in the display tank.
<Oh; with the exception of what you place for the "corals food".>
Thanks,
Ed
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Treatment Options Early Onset Crypt in SPS; and Blue Spotted Jaw input 6/2/15
Hello Bob,
<Scott>
Thank you for taking time out of your weekend to respond to my query. I currently supplement feeding with Selcon, but will read the material you suggest to see what else I might do to boost immunity in situ.
<This is really about it... perhaps a double dose of iodide-ate every three days as well>
In keeping with he above, today I spent the morning doing basic maintenance; things like water change, skimmer cleanout, removal of detritus and the like. While I was doing this it began to dawn on me that I may have been premature in attributing the symptoms on the Emperor to Crypt. For example (1) there are no signs of infection on any other fish, (2) apart form one instance about two weeks back, the Emperor has not been scratching or "flashing" which is something I have routinely seen in the past with this infection, (3) while I see an opaque blemish on each lateral fin, they never quite degraded to the telltale white dots associated with this pathogen, and (4) typically with Crypt the infection seems to miraculously disappear after a few days to a week as the trophonts drop off the fish, only to come back much worse after the life cycle reverts to theronts in higher (and eventually deadly) numbers. In this case the fins never quite cleared, but got gradually better on the left side and then appeared on the right side of the fish.
<Ah yes; I see this>
The above new doubts about my diagnosis makes your suggestion for a more conservative approach for now all the more cogent. In the meantime I wonder if I might ask you to take a look at the attached photographs. The first photo shows the left side on September 2nd. This was about a week after I first noticed the blemish on the left lateral fin and the one time I saw the fish scratching. I ascribed the lesion to the scratching but now I am not so sure. Over time the lesion has substantially healed, and until last night there were no visible signs on the right lateral fin.
<Good>
The second photo was taken today and shows the right lateral fin and the blemish, which I thought was early onset of Crypt. While you can't see it in the photo, the eye detects some irritation on the skin/scales just behind the right lateral fin when pressed down on the body.
<Mmm; the first pic looks like a physical trauma... the second unfortunately appears to be the beginning of a bacterial infection... perhaps w/ a Protozoan involved>
Could it be I am not dealing with Crypt at all but something completely different?
<Different almost assuredly... t'were their time I'd really like you to read through either ed. of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease" Diagnosis and Treatment"... expensive as an analog book, one can download as an e'... on Amazon>
Thanks again for you time and highly valued advice.
<A "furan bath" of high concentration perhaps>
Scott
P.S. - I also thought I would make a comment about the Blue Spotted Jawfish, in the interest of sharing and posting.
<Ahh; I thank you>
When I purchased the BSJ, I made the mistake of buying the fish without detailed research before purchasing. I did research once I had the fish in QT. I read WWM's post about the need for deep sand bed and cold temperature. I made accommodation with the sand bed depth. I also read in Scott Michael's book "Basslets, Dottybacks and Hawkfishes" that the fish was collected in Gulf of California and would be suitable in a temperature range of 70-82F.
<Mmm; ScottM and I agree on most all... but not here. I have collected "Rosenblatt's Opistognathid" and knew the original describer (Alex Kerstitch, RIP)... I've never been in water higher than the mid to upper sixties F. where this fish is found. Am wondering what Fishbase.org states: http://www.fishbase.org/summary/46578
Ah, they too list it as "tropical"... Not>
I deeply regret not taking more heed of your article, but rather choosing to be led by emotion and used Michael's reference as an excuse to sidestep your recommendation about temperature. As mentioned previously, the BSJ never settled into the display. While he was never harassed by his tank mates (they were very curious about the new inhabitant) he was very
reclusive. The first day he did begin to burrow in the sand, but then retreated in a makeshift burrow under a Montipora plate coral. I am of the opinion that this fish also needs very docile tank mates and the stress is a contributor to my current situation.
Ultimately I made the mistake of leaving the cover off the tank and as is reported in the literature, he jumped out of the tank and perished. I am ashamed that my hubris led to the suffering of this fish. I am now of the opinion that this should be a "show piece" fish in a system dedicated to making this species thrive.
<Am bcc'g Scott here as I've mentioned his name. Bob Fenner>

New tank/Ich transfer 4/12/15
And a cheery hi there!
<Howsit Kirsten?>
I have read much of your website for years, and really appreciate all the experience you provide to help all of us. So now I would love to have an opinion on something I am about to do…or not.
<Ok>
I currently have a 92-gallon corner tank which I am about to switch to a classic 120-gallon rectangular tank. I will be setting them up side-by-side, so that transferring everything over should be easy to do. I plan to move the rocks and sump over, arrange the rocks, and then add completely new sand before moving the fish.
However, in Dec. 2013 I had a pretty bad case of Ich in my tank - only my tang and cherub angel survived. I have, over the course of the past 11 months, added new fish, including gobies, blennies, a mandarin dragonet, and a Foxface rabbit fish, among others. I realize that at least my tang and angel are still “carriers” of the Ich…
<Possibly; but I would have you know that almost all systems, fishes have non-clinical infestations...>
What I am wondering is (and I am thinking it won’t work the way I am thinking): if I run the new tank fallow for 6-8 weeks while keeping the fish in the old tank (with the sand in it, and using pvc as hiding places instead of rocks), then the new tank will break the cycle of Ich, but the fish will still have it since they aren’t truly being quarantined (and I can’t really truly vacuum the sand of all the torments that might drop off the fish). So even after a 6-8 week period, I would still have Ich on the fish, and thus reintroduce it to the new tank. This would therefore defeat the purpose of the 6-8 week waiting period, other than the fact that any mini-cycle of the tank won’t affect the fish.
<Yes; and possibly to likely weaken the fishes... stirring on a more "clinical" expression>
Am I right in that?
<Affirmative>
Or should I do the waiting period and treat the fish with something during that time (which would effectively ruin the sand for future use)?

I am open to suggestions - I don’t believe I have seen this question asked (I did look), and appreciate any and all comments.
Thanks, Kerstin:-)
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: New tank/Ich transfer 4/12/15
Thanks very much, Bob, for confirming what I thought.
<Glad to confer>
I would actually leave my current tank up, but it’s a quarter circle tank, and after 6 years I am tired of trying to make my equipment work with it (and having sand blow all around), hence the move…long time coming.
Have a great Sunday,
<Ah, thank you. Up in Portland, OR, giving a talk. Cheers, BobF>
Kerstin:-)

Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich 4/2/15
Hello Crew!
Thank you so much for this website! I wish I would have known about it years ago when I got my first freshwater Betta! In any case, I am struggling with ich in a bad way in my saltwater tank! (I apologize if this is a little long) A little background: I have had freshwater aquariums for years and I can honestly tell you I've never had one case of freshwater ich.
<Fortunate>
People would talk about it and I would think they were either crazy or stupid. In my home, we have a 6 gallon nano tank for Henry the Betta who is 8 years old this year!
<A world's record if so>
We have a 150 gallon brackish tank with 4 (about 8") one year old Columbian Reef Sharks.
<Soon this catfish will require full strength saltwater>
Since we had such success with our freshwater and brackish tanks, my husband and I decided to give saltwater a shot. How bad could it be? Last August we purchased a 75 gallon acrylic saltwater tank setup and literally just stared at the empty thing for a month. We were so overwhelmed with filtration, protein skimmers, types of substrate, sumps and refugiums that we couldn't really make a decision on anything!
<Best to take ones time>
In October we settled on a Hydor filtration system with Chemipure, a hang on protein skimmer (Remora I think), Carib-Sea for substrate with about 80 pounds of live rock and decided to wait on a sump. (My husband picked the lighting since that about made my head explode. I think we have T5 and LED) We bought our water from the LFS and just waited. And waited.
<Good and good>
We didn't stock a thing until December of last year when we finally were confident enough that we understood the testing parameters so as not to be humiliated when we walked in the LFS with water samples for them to only tell us that our water was essentially toxic sludge. (They didn't say that thankfully) My husband had wild visions of a puffer fish or lion fish and
I just wanted a beautiful coral tank with maybe a clown fish or two. On our first stocking trip, we came home with turbo snails and hermit crabs.
Then we waited more. We added 3 fish and 5 coral frags at the end of January. By this time, we had read enough online to set up a QT and had great success adding Chuck our Tomato Clown, Penelope our Yellow Tang and Blue our Indigo Dottyback. Sadly, I didn't have such great luck with the corals. They all died. I also killed the Chaeto that I tried to set up a
refugium with. I figured it's because I am not capable of keeping a Ficus alive so why would I think I could be successful at keeping delicate corals alive? (With that, my husband won his bid for a puffer fish!) Our next addition was Mr. Blenny a Red Lipped Blenny who had a naughty streak.
<Oh yes they do>
(He liked to bury snails and crabs when they got too close to him.)
Everyone was happy, healthy and eating well. Water was clear, ammonia never tested higher than .5,
<Toxic; very stressful>
nitrites remained at 0 consecutively and nitrates tested around 20 or sometimes 40 before a water change.
<Keep under 20 ppm. See WWM re>
(At this time, we decided we were soooo good at being saltwater fish parents that we were installing a custom 250 gallon tank with faux coral inserts.) Then we found the puffer fish. A very tiny (1.5") dog faced puffer. We brought him home and delivered him to the QT (we have a 20 gallon QT with a pretty basic filter, bare bottom, fake plastic hidey holes and no fancy lighting) where he stayed until 2 weeks ago. (So he was in QT a little over 4 weeks) He had been eating well and had been pretty active in the QT before we moved him to the main tank. Little Puffy seemed to adapt really quickly and had a voracious appetite. On the third day of him being in the main tank, after a 25% water change, Mr. Blenny started hovering at the top of the tank by the power head and bubbles from the airstone. He had always been a bottom dweller and had never been shy. I didn't think much of it since the water was still testing in the same range except for ammonia which bounced up to 1ppm
<MUST be, stay at zero. You have insufficient bio-filtration>
even after the water change and he was still eating really well. The next morning, he was still hanging out up top and had seemed to fade in color a bit. I called the LFS that morning to describe his condition and they asked me to look for the signs of ich. I didn't see a single white spot on any of the fish so I assumed that there was no parasite. The manager of the LFS was going to be at our house the next day to set up the new custom tank so he told me he would check on him when he arrived. By the time we got home, Mr. Blenny was at the bottom of the tank taking his last breaths.
He died as I scooped him into the net. I saved his little body in a plastic bowl with some tank water so I could still show the store manager the next morning. I frantically tested the parameters and everything was back to normal with ammonia still only testing at .5.
<...>
I checked for the white spots that the LFS store had told me about on the other fish and couldn't find a thing. Everyone ate well and went to bed that night with happy full bellies. The next morning, the manager of the LFS took a look at Mr. Blenny and determined that he had probably eaten something in the tank that had disagreed with him.
<Could be>
He didn't see any signs of disease or parasite and checked the rest of the gang and gave them two thumbs up. He recommended that I started adding vita chem to their diet since they are all so small. The next morning (with a new, unfilled mega aquarium waiting to be cycled), I noticed that Puffy looked like he was molting. He had substrate all over him (he likes
to sleep in the sand) and his skin looked like it was peeling. Everyone else looked normal. By that evening, I saw the dreaded white spots on Chuck the Tomato Clown. Just a handful, but they were there. I saw nothing on the tang, the Dottyback or even Puffy! I removed Chuck immediately and put him in the QT. I did not do a freshwater dip. I called the LFS and they recommended I come in to get some medicine. I bought the recommended Rid Ich Plus.
<Mmm; not safe to use on/w/ non-fishes present>
(I still have not opened the bottle.) I came home and read up on ich (Which is how I found this site) and decided that the chemicals were too harsh and drastic at this time. Chuck was still eating and seemed to enjoy alone time in the QT and everyone else was fine too. The next evening, Puffy had the molting look and I swore I saw a single white spot on his
head. Out he went to the QT with Chuck. Again no freshwater dip. Still no signs on the other fish. (Should I have put all of them in the QT when I saw the first signs on the clown?)
<Yes; not a quarantine, but a treatment tank now>
Everyone still eating well and only a little spike in ammonia in the display tank to 1 again. So the fish have been separated for roughly a week. On Monday, the Dottyback was hovering in the front bottom corner of the DT instead of flying through his caves like normal. I didn't see any spots so I didn't move him. (I've found that a small blacklight flashlight seems to really help me see the spots.) The next morning, he was dead.
Penelope the Tang was left by herself and now it looked like she had some spots on her side so I moved her to the QT too. (After destroying all of the rockscape trying to catch the bugger) Up until today, they have been eating but have been acting pretty shy in the QT. (I keep the lights off except for when I do water change since I can't see!) This morning, Chuck
is literally covered in spots, Puffy is hovering on the bottom with one clouded eye and breathing heavy and the Tang is behaving normal but looks like she has white chicken pox. I have been doing daily 25% water changes in the QT and maintaining salinity of 1.024.
<I would drop this... drastically... to 1.012 or so... again, it will take too long for me to re-key all you might need to know. You'll want to learn how to use WWM; the search tool is best... using it to search the topics; then the second (at the top of every page) to highlight key words...>
I have raised the heat to 80 degrees.
<Temperature... can be used to speed up life cycles... but also increases the metabolism of hosts and decreases gas solubility>
At this point, I am beyond confused about these little parasites. I understand the life cycle and assume that just because one set of ich parasites falls off to move to the next phase does not necessarily mean that there are no more nearby.
<Over time (weeks) you are correct; one ends up with overlapping, multiple life-stage infestations>
I am so concerned about the health of the fish and don't want to lose another one! I have no intention of putting anyone back in the old display tank if and when they heal for fear that it is still in the substrate.
Last night, I removed everything and put all of the live rock and crabs and snails in a holding tank, removed the substrate and bleached the heck out of the 75 gallon. Am I missing a vital step in treatment for the ich?
<Oh yes.... you need to READ and formulate a PLAN... t'were it me, mine, I'd be using CP... a quinine>
I really fear using the medication as it's ingredients are literally toxic!
<Tis so>
Are there any other options to speed up the ich extermination phase or do I just need patience and hope?
<... need... to.... read>
And I assume that the puffer introduced the ich to the tank even though he didn't show symptoms first. (Or maybe Mr. Blenny had it laying in wait?)
Is there a way to help to encourage my patients to eat again? (I should have mentioned this earlier. We feed a mixture of mussels, finely chopped shrimp or mysis shrimp along with some Nori on clips that I assume the Tang eats because it is always gone but I've never seen her show any interest) I'm a bad fish mommy and should be condemned to a life of Sea Monkeys.
<Heeeee! Glad to find you still have your sense of humor>
Thanks for any help, advice or Sea Monkey starter kit.
Amber
<The reading. Write back w/ specific questions, concerns. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich 4/2/15
Wow you're fast!!! I am back home in front of the aquarium and the Tomato Clown has died. I really thought I saw improvement this morning! Water parameters are PH 8.4, Ammonia .2
<Toxic>
Nitrite looking at .50
<Ditto>
and Nitrate 5.0. Is bio-Spira recommended to quickly reduce in addition to updating the biological media?
<STOP WRITING AND START READING>
The puffer is still looking like he's molting but swimming around more and the tang has moved into the plastic rock house. I'm going to do another partial water change and try to lower the salinity a bit to slowly get to 1.012. (Or can I make the jump from 1.024 to 1.012 in one swoop?).
<Yes>
LFS has Chloroquine Phosphate but he gave me a disapproving tone on the phone when I asked him to hold a bottle.
<Why would I care?>
I will pick up tonight. So here's the questions. Before I treat with CP, should I do the recommended freshwater dip with methalyne blue?
<No>
(I can pick that up as well). I see that the freshwater dip could help the infection fall off but I also interpret that it could further stress/damage the animal. Are the remaining fish too delicate at this point to do the freshwater dip?
<.... read>
Could the warmer temperature be causing more stress?
<...>
I'll reduce it asap. Finally, the LFS recommended smaller, more frequent feedings of 2 - 3 times per day. Am I just going to increase my nitrate problem by doing so or will this actually help them heal faster?
<Try and see.... you refuse to read>
I'm reading I'm reading I promise!
<Oh!>
Sorry for the earlier verbosity and thanks again for the Lightning fast response.
(One last question? Now I regret bleaching the DT for fear that I ruined it. Can it recover from the Clorox atom bomb that I just dropped?)
<A biocide>
Amber
<BobF>
Re: Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich 4/3/15
Thank you again for your reply. I will continue to read instead of seeking further clarification.
<Mmmm>
Please understand that there are volumes of info on this site and some of it seems rather conflicting in cases so my last email was intended to clarify areas that I was confused about.
<Do feel free to write about this. My urging is simply to make sure you have sufficient background. I/we don't "tell people what to do", but rather hope to help them inform themselves re possible paths, plans they might choose>
I could go into specifics but am afraid that the answer will just be <read>. Previously I trusted the experience of my LFS manager and then discovered WWM with the crew's lofty
<?>
knowledge and experience and chose to seek advice from what I now deem to be fish husbandry gurus. And unfortunately I found a lot of this information too late. Ignorance on my behalf of course but tragic for the little lives that I just ended. The remaining fish and I will read together and work this out.
Take care
<Again; DO write back w/ specific questions or concerns. Clarity is pleasurable. BobF>
Re: Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich 4/4/15
Thanks again. I do appreciate your time. Just an update. I found the culprit of my ammonia levels!
<Ah good>
Something with the filter in my little hospital wasn't looking right. The water flow seemed slow and irregular. I tore it apart and found a pretty significant piece of sponge filter media lodged at the back of the return compartment. It was filled with nasty goo. I tore it out and this morning the water tested near perfect! (I still think the ammonia color on the tests looks like it's registering trace amounts.). My little fish buddies still don't look well but I am remaining steadfast in their treatment. The
LFS had some weird product that looked nothing like what you described on WWM for the CP. And the packaging had seen better days. My mission today is to locate it online. In the meantime, I will continue water changes (the salinity is now hovering at 1.012 as you suggest and the temp is around 74 degrees) and vacuuming the bottom for invisible monsters while keeping their feeding schedule the same.
<VERY good>
And no freshwater dips!
<Mmm; correct. Would be more stress/harm than worth it at this point... unless this was part of a regimen, moving the dipped fish to new/clean settings>
I've read the entire section on ich, parasites, tank quality, ammonia, nitrite and nitrates and my eyes are now bloodshot but I think I'm armed with some good info.
I'll keep you posted on my success (fingers crossed)!!!
<Appreciated>
Thanks again Mr. Fenner!
Amber
<Cheers, B>
Re: Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich 4/8/15
Hello again!
<Amber>
Thank you again for all of the previous advice and direction. Hopefully this is a positive update (and I need a smudge clarification too)!
Following the previous email, the puffer fish died. He fought hard. (Ok that wasn't so positive). The tang immediately became very active in the hospital tank. Almost swimming a little obstacle course. As of Sunday, she showed no visible signs of ich. I have been feeding a mixed diet daily with meatier foods such as a half cube of mysis or ground up mussels (those
seemed to be "her" favorite when I was still feeding the puffer) soaked in vita-chem in the morning and a new Nori sheet plus little fishies veggies in the evening. (An observation: she seems to pay more attention to food treated with Kent garlic than plain.). She also seems to enjoy these Hikari Seaweed pellets as a treat. Question 1: Is this enough food for a healing fish?
<Mmm; I'd use more. Hikari makes some other, very nice pelleted and clean/frozen foods>
I've read in the FAQs to feed once a day all the way to three times a day. She's still very small (under 3"). Question 2: Is this a sufficient food quality for a healing fish?
<Same answer>
I am doing 20% water changes daily, completely dismantling and cleaning the protein skimmer daily, changing the filter pad every other day with a hot water soak of the media rack when the pad is changed and plan to change the Purigen and Chemi-pure that I am now running monthly. I also soak all of the chintzy plastic hideaways in super hot water with every water change. (Quick remind: she's now housed in the 20 gallon hospital tank with a completely bare bottom and only fake plastic "rocks"). I have maintained salinity of 1.012 - 1.014 and a temp of 74 - 76 degrees. And since I found the ammonia culprit, my testing values have all been at zero. (I even bought two new different testing kits to verify the results!). The CP arrived today but I don't see a reason to use it if it looks like she's healing.

Question 3: Am I creating too "sterile" of an environment?
<Could be>
I feel like I might be a little obsessed at this time. Question 4: At what point am I safe to start raising salinity and reducing the aggressiveness of the water changes to prepare her for a normal environment (you know, with substrate and real rocks?) I have read one month minimum up to at least two months, if not more. I plan to continue the daily water changes for a month assuming that I see no new signs of ich and then reduce to maybe every other day for another month or so if that is recommended. She will not be returning to the old tank ever! (The new tank is cycling away and the old tank is being punished in storage.) Final question: If I don't introduce another fish for a very very long time (months... Maybe years), will this have a negative effect on her socialization?
<Possibly>
She seems happy now in a small tank but will she be lonely in a 250 gallon tank with just snails, rocks and crabs for company? (Watching each fish die was like watching Old Yeller over and over again.)
<I'd bet "dollars to donuts" that you'll find other fish livestock that's clean (a hint: look to tank-bred) in time>
Again thank you so much!
Amber
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich - Follow Up; re-stkg FO 6/23/15
Hello Crew!
<Amber>
It's been almost three months since our last email and I thought I would share, with pride, our success and thanks for your help and education.
<Oh, please do>
After the ich wiped out everyone but the yellow tang, we were rather devastated but still had a new, very large (250 gallon tank with 40 gallon sump) setup in our house that no fish friends had ever lived in. After we were certain the ich was never coming back to the tang, we moved her into the giant aquarium. Luckily we had added about 200 pounds of live rock
along with the fake coral and caves already built so she could hide! I think moving from a 75 gallon to a 20 gallon to a 250 gallon was a real shock to the poor thing! She seemed to adjust nicely after a few weeks though.
Per your suggestion, we "interviewed" a few tank bred specimens and found a great juvenile tomato clown. After a 42 day quarantine in the hospital/treatment tank, he (and a new cleanup crew with my new favorites, the Nassarius snails) was introduced to the display tank last week. So far he seems really happy and the snails really freak my mom out when they pop
up when she comes over to feed them. (It's quite funny to listen to my mom scream, "there's a THING coming out of the sand!!! What should I do?!?").
<Heeeee!>
But that's it. No one else lives in the tank. Just lots of rock, the yellow tang, the tomato clown and about 30 assorted snails and crabs. So of course, I have questions for you! As you might recall, we lost a tomato clown, a red lipped blenny and a dog faced puffer and an indigo dotty back to the Las Vegas ich crisis of 2015. They were all housed in the 75 gallon display tank which we have since upgraded to a 250 gallon.
(Which is testing 0ppm for nitrite, 0 for ammonia and .5 for nitrate as of a half hour ago with sg at 1.023 and a temp of 78 degrees f) Anyhow, besides improper quarantine techniques, I feel a lot of our ich problems stemmed from dangerous water conditions along with, and this is totally my theory,
<Is a valid one>
purchasing fish that were too small or too young. Am I crazy to think that we should be looking at specimens that are a little older and hardier as we add to our fish family?
<Are better>
I've since found a new LFS that is ridiculously NOT local compared to the old one, but they actually took the time to COME to my house when I was struggling with some features on my new sump. (And they didn't even sell me the tank!). I feel like they have fewer fish to choose from in the store, but their specimens are always larger, more responsive to stimuli and just
plain happier in the display tanks. (And I like that they display the new quarantined animals in the back of the store until they are ready to be sold. Makes me feel like they are helping the quarantine process). So we have our eyes on a large dog face puffer, a lyre-tail hog fish and a pink tail trigger. All three have been in the store since we purchased the tomato clown (so about two months). Too much fish for 250 gallons?
<Not too much>
Weird combination?
<Not>
And if we were to purchase two or all three, what are your thoughts on doing it all at the same time?
<Could be done>
These will be the last purchases for this aquarium in regards to livestock.
Again, thank you so much for your previous guidance. I know you saved our last remaining fish but I think you helped save us from bailing out of the hobby and I appreciate that.
Forever indebted to WWM!
Amber
<Thank you for this update. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Ich Ich Ich Ich - Follow Up 6/23/15
Thank you again!
<Ahh!>
And I forgot to mention! Your tales of travels have inspired us to take a snorkeling trip of our own in Hawaii in August!
<Yay!>
I can't wait to see some of these fish in their natural habitats.
: )
Amber
<FAB! BobF>

Ich theory. 4/3/15
Just an observation from my readings/experience.
<Good>
I am currently treating my seahorses, and select small fish, with Cupramine. There are no inverts, rock, sand . (Essentially my dt, turned bare into a qt)
Cupramine says to treat 21 days, however i am going 28 to play it safe. I am thinking, since ich "falls" off a fish 2-7 days to encyst, would it not be advantageous to add a fish during this period, since the ich that will fall off, at most 7 days later, would be exposed to copper, and therefore be unable to reproduce.
So if I add a fish April 1, as long as the copper is in there until the 8th, in theory it should be ok.

Crypt 3/5/15
Good morning and thank you for your time, we all appreciate you volunteers more than you'll ever know.
<Ahh!>
My name is Sarah and I've have had my 60 gallon saltwater tank for 4 years now. I had a flame angel, six line, Tomini tang, 2 Banggais, a clown, and a blue spotted watchman goby. The six line and angel I had for 3 years, the others just over 2 years. I got cocky and added a one spot fox face.
<Yikes.... sans quarantine, dipping/bathing at the least?>
All seemed well for 2 weeks. Then the fox face died. Then, within 3 days of his death all the others, except the goby, died too. Looked like classic crypt. They were lethargic, not eating, white spots. My mother was in the hospital during this time in a sudden coma and she died the same day as the last two fish.
<... condolences>
She was very young and it was unexpected. My tank and its tragedies took a backseat obviously. Between running back and forth to the hospital I barely had time to remove each one when it passed. It has now been almost 5 weeks.
My goby is still alive and is the only occupant. I need a happy distraction (besides my 2 year old and 7 month old daughters :) ) and am not sure what to do now tank wise. Is the goby keeping the crypt disease alive since the tank is not fallow?
<Very possibly yes; but then again; many if not most marine aquarium systems do have a latent Crypt infestation... it's the added stress of other change/s; the introduction of new strains that likely account for overt outbreaks, losses>
I do not have anywhere to remove him to. If I add a fish in another month will he get crypt from my tank?
<Possibly... I would wait another few weeks... to have the Protozoan lose more of its virulence>
I don't think my heart is in it to build another community tank. Maybe just one fish that is bigger?
<Mmm; not size... but...>
Any suggestions?
<Yes; more historically "pathogen resistant" species, specimens...>
I was looking at puffers, triggers, etc.
<Mmm; no Trigger for this size system; and only Tobies amongst Puffers for a sixty>
thank you for your help, your site is amazing and I've been an avid reader for many months.
<Am very glad we have been of service, help. Do keep reading, dreaming for now... and making a wish list for later visiting stores, etailers. Bob Fenner>
Re: Crypt 3/8/15
Thank you for your response and expertise, how amazing to receive advice on my tank from THE Bob Fenner.
<? Or someone w/ the same name>
I will wait more time as advised and will research more pathogen resistant fish. Your theory of "psychology crowded" is fascinating and not something I had previously thought of. I believe that is what I did to my tank (in
addition to not qt-ing) I enjoy reading your site and will continue to inform myself.
<Ahh!>
Thank you again for your time
Sarah
<Cheers, BobF>

FW dips and tank transfer method for crypto 12/29/14
Hi Bob et al,
Need some clarification on some things. I've been thinking, dangerous sometimes. LOL..
<But oh so worthwhile>
Would you agree that FW dips can reduce the parasitic load on fish that have crypto?
<Oh yes>
Not cure them of crypto, just reduce parasitic load?
<Can cure IF the infestation/s is/are "not too deep", the dip/bath done "well"; but likely in most cases does just reduce the load... sufficiently to aid the fish host/s in warding off decline in overall health>
What are your thoughts on tank transfer method for fish infected with crypto.
<Can work... as well>
Have heard some folks swear by this method of getting rid of crypto. Seems like an awful lot of work and spare tanks laying around.
What is the proper way of performing a tank transfer method treatment to rid fish of crypto?
<Gone over; archived on WWM... I think by Steven Pro in his articles, responses to folks>
Thank you.
Best,
Jan
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Ich Treatment with Hyposalinity 12/11/14
My entire tank has ich. Its a 240 gallon tank. No corals but some crabs and snails with about 400 lbs live rock with not much life that i can physically see growing on them. I have two star fish but that's extent of inverts. Can I use hypo salinity in my main tank to treat ich with the live rocks remaining in the system? Filtration system is based off live rock and refugium.
<Rarely works; though some folks are a fan. You can read all of our opinions... where? On WWM>
I do not own a quarantine tank large enough to house all my fish. Fish are too large. Fish are about 8 yrs old. Fish apparently got sick when I moved the aquarium.
Look forward to your response.
Christopher
<Time for you to read... and quickly. Esp. the sections on quinine cpd.s. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich Treatment with Hyposalinity 12/12/14
Thank you for the reply. Can you send me the link for the recommended area to read?
<? Use the search tool Chris... there are too many of "you" daily to have the WWM Crew direct>
I currently am using SICCE Hyper Cure, running a ultra violet light, feeding food with parasite medication, and feeding fish garlic. Last thing I think I could try is the hyposalinity to try to rid the fish of parasites.
Some of the fish have become to get a bacterial infection. I have dosed tank with Melafix.
<Worse than worthless>
I have no quarantine tank available and can not afford to buy one large enough to handle my 15 fish at this time.
I am trying everything. possible to get this issue resolved.
Christopher

Marine Ich and Water Flow in the Reef Aquarium 12/8/14
WWM Crew,
<Dan>
I wanted to "Ask the Experts" (You!) another Marine Ich question because my friends and I were having a debate around the topic of Ich in the reef tank and water flow being a potential mechanism for keeping the parasite at bay.
<Interesting; had not thought of this as an element; but can well-believe that rapid water movement might reduce rates of infestation>
In "healthy" reef tanks with adequate flow, some felt that there are less incidence of Ich not just because of water quality, predatory organisms, or optimal stocking levels...but because of the strong random flow interfering with Theronts being able to attach to a fish within 24-48 hours. We tried to find some solid information online where others have measured the Theronts ability to swim (how fast, how far, mechanism for "latching on" to a fish, etc) but didn't find anything.

The hypothesis is that in a larger aquarium (100+ gallons) with strong, random turbulent flow where Surgeonfish often thrive... it will be
difficult for a free swimming Theront to attach to a fish. Much like a mosquito trying to bite an individual on a windy day.
<Yes; or the use of fans to discount the intrusion of flies, other flying insects, into grocery stores for instance>
If that theory hold true..then one would think that investing in strong powerheads and increasing the flow in an aquarium (especially at night) for 3-4 weeks could hinder an Ich outbreak. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
Dan
<I do concur with your assumptions... including the ancillary benefits of greater circulation improving health by enhancing the environment. I would make a pilgrimage to a college nearby that has life science majors, ask a reference librarian to help you look up re Protozoan locomotion, maybe Cryptocaryon itself; and possibly the entire topic re differential infestation rates as a function of water current. Thank you for sharing.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ich and Water Flow in the Reef Aquarium 12/8/14
Thanks Bob! I appreciate your insights here. Now that you gave me the right terminology, I was able to find some studies on Ciliate locomotion and function.
<Ahh!>
I think your comments highlight an interesting experiment (if none have already tried it already). To measure the "differential infestation rates as a function of water current" to see if there is a tipping point where the environment does not allow for increasing infection rates.
<Infestation actually... infections are microbial>
I am pretty active with the folks at the aquarium here in Chicago, and there is no shortage of ich infested surgeonfish at the local fish stores...so I might reach out to the Shedd and see if anyone has an appetite for an experiment! If they agree, I will let you know what we find.
<Fab!>
Thanks Again Bob!
Dan
<Thank you Dan. BobF>

Ich problems 11/8/14
Hello ,
<Craig>
I am hoping you will be able to help me out with a Ich situation that just started for me. Without a doubt I am in this position from not using proper quarantine procedures before introducing new fish to the display tank. My problem is this , I have a 220 gallon tank with 2 false percula clowns , 1 golden moray eel , 5 Chromis , 1 blenny , a male and female flame wrasse , 1 seven inch Naso Tang , 1 three inch Sailfin tang , and 1 two inch Kole tang. We just added the Sailfin tang and Kole tang less than a week ago and now are having an outbreak of Ich . I think it was there all along but just a hunch on my part as the blenny was constantly tail biting and flashing , but never showing those tell tale white spots. Anyhow don't have that issue now as the little Kole tang and Sailfin tang are covered with it and the Naso has a few spots on him as well. I was planning on doing the tank transfer method removing all of the mentioned fish and alternating them between two 26 gallon containers every three days for two weeks. I was also planning on setting up a 40 gallon quarantine tank during this time and seeding it with live rock from a smaller 28 gallon aquarium
that holds another golden dwarf moray. Its not an option really to move the eel in the display tank with the 28 gallon eel as they were together before and started to get into pretty bad fighting. After the tank transfer
method is over I was planning on moving all of the fish over to the 40 gallon tank and letting the display tank sit fallow for 8 weeks. I am not sure what I can do with the golden moray in that display tank.
<All fishes need to be treated>
Some readings seem to say its okay to leave him in during the fallow period and others say he definitely must come out during that time .
<All fishes, eels inclusive will operate as reservoir hosts... must be treated>
Could you give you advise on that?
<Yes>
If he does have to come out...
<You could try>
I also have some snails , urchins and hermit crabs that sound like they are good to stay , but there is also a tiger tail sea cucumber in there , would he have to come out as well ?
<No; just the fishes>
Thanks for any
insight you can give me .
Craig
<All of this is archived; gone over and over on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Treatment of Ich in Retail System 11/7/14
Hi Crew,
I have a relatively new fish system (has been stocked about 6 months). It has 6 divide 70 gallon and 3 undivided 70 gallon display tanks, a 100 gallon sessile invertebrate flow through unit attached,
<... trouble. Your invert., actually non-fish system/s need to be separate>
and another 600 gallons of water circulating around in the filtration systems. For a total of about 1300 gallons. The filtration is still under construction to some degree but mostly operational. Currently I'm turning over the water in the tanks ~8 times per hour. There are two pumps with this job each pumping through their own inline 440w TMC sterilizer.
<Helps; but of and by itself won't prevent parasitic, infectious issues; nor cure them>
The biofilter, skimmer, etc are all supplied by ancillary pumps. The tanks are all bare bottom but do have small amount of porous rock to give the fish a little structure. To date, I've had one or two fish break out in Ich but showed little stress and recovered quickly without any action.
<Good>
However, I had a recent outbreak which was bad enough to treat and I think my poor management of the situation has now turned into a disaster. I have done much research on your site for many years yet still find myself struggling to understand disease management well enough to apply it effectively in our system, but want to! I've also duo of full line stores to run and my fish guys all have their own ideas of what to do and I need a
system that we can apply effectively and practically now and in the future.
<Yes>
1 week and 1 month ago... our first major Ich outbreak occurs in one of our divided 70 gallon tanks stocked with an Achilles tang,
<VERY susceptible>
indigo hamlet, dwarf lion, dog face puffer, goldbar wrasse, Toby puffer, and falco Hawkfish. All Sm to M in size and in the tank between 1-3 months or so save the dog face puffer and all except the little lion were voracious eaters and apparently hardy specimens. The tang and the puffer broke out at approximately the same time. One of my fish guys caught it quick and we isolated the tank from the system. We put an Aquaclear filter with some media from the main systems bio filter and added a heater and water circulation. We did a 3 day treatment of formalin in the tank using quick cure at the recommended dose and over that period increased temperature to about 84. The treatment at first seemed reasonably effective and we did a large water change on the tank on day 3 but kept the tank isolated and increased the heat to 86, at which point I thought Ich was unable to reproduce which I thought I had read in a text book a couple years ago but upon further research realizing may only apply to the FW variety
<Yes>
though still effective in speeding up lifecycle as I understand. Well after a week or so the tang had a recurrence and we started another 3 day regime of the formalin. The tang was lost shortly thereafter and most of the other fish broke out as well. This time around the Ich were much more abundant and effected the majority of the fish. During treatment the wrasse died but the rest of the fish pulled through and the tank went another couple weeks before my fish guys had some concerns about water quality and ongoing maintenance/reliability in the isolated tank. At this point all the fish were given a freshwater dip and moved into other tanks.
The isolated tank was cleaned with a bleach solution and left to dry before being added on to the system. It's about a week later now and I have 7 or so fish from various tanks who now have Ich, a couple fairy wrasses, a
couple blue tangs, a long nose butterfly, a porcupine puffer, and a flameback angel. The puffer, angel, 1 of the blue tangs, and one of the fairy wrasses are all new fish only about a week or so in the system. I've tried to identify probably causes and I have a plethora of options.
A. Previously QT'd fish still had Ich when they were spread (although not all
the tanks that now have the Ich have one of those fish in them).
<Highly likely>
B. New fish just brought it in on them
<Quite probable this time of year>
C. Sterilizer effectiveness waning?
<Doubtful>
D. Stress related to a couple of buggerups I made
<A contributing cause/influence>
(I did some work on the system using both pvc glue and silicone and I started running water through these components several hours later and afterward did some research and discovered that until its fully cured can contaminate the water) E. Some sort of cross contamination from nets or buckets from the previously quarantined tank.
<Maybe... what do you use for a dip?>
I considered several options including copper (The invert tank can run on its own if needed),
<Ah; thank goodness>
but really don't want to introduce copper into the system as I've heard it can persist and plague invertebrates even after using media to remove it. I thought about the same with formalin but that seemed too extreme for the
situation and the wide variety of fish in the system. So I ended up moving all the affected fish to their own divided tank (on the system) and removed the rock. From their gave them all a SW formalin bath using Steven Pro's
recommendation of .75 ml per gallon. Most of the fish bathed for about 45 minutes in well circulated tank water. I lost the flameback during the dip but he wasn't looking real great to begin with. My plan is to continue
giving the dip once daily to affected fish and continue moving affected fish to the rock free tank and scraping the walls and floor of this tank every few days. Does this plan seem prudent?
<Mmm; worth trying if this is all the facilities you have>
Aggressive enough? Should I isolate the tank again (I'd rather not, the fish didn't do great last time around and it seems the UV sterilizers may aid in treatment but do I put the other tanks at greater risk?)
<I'd re-do the plumbing... isolate the two systems... non fish to one (algae, plants, invertebrates), fishes to the other... and treat w/ what you prefer. Chelated copper if you want; a quinine compound even better>
Should I do FW bath instead of SW?
<? Yes... pH adjusted... See the SOP on WWM. Sorry; am at an airport and short on time to look up>
The SW is much easier with less room for error than the FW and there are so many conflicting reports on effectiveness of FW bath as treatment and highly variable tolerance times that it's not nearly as practical.
<Aye ya... my talk at this year's Aquatic Experience show this wknd in Chi town is about this.... Have campaigned for decades to eradicate the naiveté of folks... including in the trade>
I've also considered hyposalinity but many conflicting reports there as well from industry pundits ranging all the way from it's a bogus internet myth to it's far and away the best and most effective ongoing treatment for
commercial systems.
<Again; please use WWM. ALMOST all stores, wholesalers utilize artificially low spg (but not hypo. as a treatment; it rarely works)... a good idea on several counts.>
I know my current plan is practical enough, but do you believe its effective enough to implement as our "official system" for dealing with this problem as it occurs. Are there other measures or advice you would recommend? At what point would you consider fish safe to relocate?
<... MANY... can't do the Vulcan mind-meld (unfortunately), and there's WAY TOO MUCH to re-key. WHAT you need to know is archived on WWM. See how to use the search tool, indices>
What would be a prudent length of time to restrict livestock sales on
1. tanks that had an infection but have no further outbreaks and
2. Tanks that are on the system but did not experience any outbreak 3. Fish that have been treated and recovered
<There is no set answer here w/ any degree of confidence. Were it my shop; so few organisms involved, I'd bleach the systems; treat the fish elsewhere>
For new fish, mostly I understand FW dips are a worthwhile measure and plan on doing that in the future as well as rearranging my tanks to get new fish in their own tanks between orders both to minimize stress and limit
potential impact of disease transmission. Full QT system big enough for new fish may be in my future but that comes at a heavy cost (retail comes at a premium!).
<Ah yes. Are you attending Aq. Exp.?>
Thanks for your time and effort, not sure where I'd be without your resource,
Matt
<We'll be chatting. Don't lose heart or give up. Bob Fenner>
Re: Treatment of Ich in Retail System, plus some mgmt. questions ‏ 11/9/14
Wish I was in Chicago hearing you talk but sadly no, I'm here in the weeds.
<Ahh; home now... in S. Cal. MUCH warmer!>
Quick update on the situation is fish seem to be recovering okay using the SW formalin bath. I'm fine tuning our freshwater dip method before I go that extra step. Thus far I have am having a heck of a time getting pH to
match. My ph meter goes wacky in the RO buffered water.
<Oh yes; needs to be mixed up hours in advance of testing>
Add to that my fish system stays at 8.0. Alk is fine and I've calibrated and tested my pH monitor multiple times. So I just haven't worried about it. But getting my buffered water stabilized at 8.0 or even within .2 has been difficult to do and to test since it tweaks my tester.
Re: Separate Inverts. Our invert system is physically separated from our coral system with an aisle in between the two so I couldn't think of any way to join them. However, your vehemence was enough to inspire a little
more innovation and I think I can make it work using float switches to transfer water back and for the between the systems without the need to share a sump (our sumps and filters are all in a room ABOVE the display
systems which often necessitates some creativity (this choice was made as a last resort of a do the best we can retrofit type of scenario)).
<Yes. KEEP these two separated>
Re: Hyposalinity. Prior to adding the invert system we were running our fish system at 1.019 which made acclimation from Quality Marine easier as that's what theirs came in at, and seemed like a fairly widely accepted
good thing for us to do. However, I ran across this article http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2009-04/newbie/index.php at reefkeeping.com that made me feel real stupid for carrying on the practice as it was a "Newbie Myth" propagated by pet stores to save money on salt.
I will say, from an anecdotal standpoint we didn't have any issues with crypt until we started bringing up the salinity. Additionally the general response I've seen on WWM is that fish should be kept at natural sea level.
Here you mention in your response that almost all wholesalers and stores keep artificially low spg in their fish systems with good reason. Amidst my confusion, I'm gathering that it IS good for me to do as commercial
operation, NOT good for a hobbyist to do. Please confirm.
<Yes; the biz is different than end-users/consumers. I would keep all but Red Sea fishes and species that live in close association w/ invertebrates (Clownfishes the best example) at artificially low spg... for salt savings,
greater DO, reduced external parasite loads...>
Re: Sterilizers. I have these guys setup (I hope) to provide level 3 sterilization which to my mind would aid in battling even these hardy protozoa. This is according to the recommendations here, http://www.qualitymarine.com/UV-Sterilizers/T.M.C./P2---110-W-Commercial-UV-Sterilizer-(up-to-264-g) turning 8x hour and running 880w of their sterilizers in my 1000g turnover volume. Where they state Max Sys Vol of 1056 at 4x, though they recommend 7x for Marine ornamental aquariums.
<Ok>
Re: "Finding everything I need to know on WWM". All I can do is smile there. Yes it's a wealth of information, almost too vast. Over the last 12 years spent many sleepless nights browsing and searching.
<Don't like you losing sleep>
I have a couple other questions relating to management thoughts that have been percolating.
Net Sterilization:
I know you recommend formaldehyde. None of our regular wholesalers sell this without malachite green which really makes a mess. Would ParaGuard be an acceptable substitute?
<Mmm; yes; worth trying. Though, you likely can order formalin/formaldehyde from out of state>
Couple Acclimation questions:
1. Do you know of or have any sort of guide for approximate lengths fish can dip/bath. For example, Small Tetras, ~30 seconds vs. Tangs 60 minutes etc. that I can use as a starting point for staff getting this figured out?
<Not really... is an individual "guess" per species, sizes, apparent state of health... Better to under-time than over, AND always be present, observing while>
2. Currently our acclimation process is simply neutralize ammonia in shipping water with prime and drip acclimate until pH of shipping water matches tank water. I've been studying up on the Guerilla method and your acclimation power point presentation. Is a video of you presenting this available anywhere?
<Ahh! There will be very shortly. Tiff recorded my presentation this weekend for this purpose. Thank you for asking>
I did not find it on YouTube. If not, I'm going to have some questions for you but I'll keep them pending.
Markup:
What's your analysis of a good markup for marine aquarium livestock.
<For inexpensive livestock (e.g. most damsels) three-four hundred percent... most all three hundred, expensive species (tens or more dollars cost) doubling>
I'm just crunching some numbers in my head and it seems that if I were to be doing this in the best way possible, I'm going need to mark up my already expensive (MAC Certified and SSC) livestock a lot more. If I distribute the cost of ordering, shipping, and receiving, quarantining, and moving livestock in batches of say $1000 at a time (which I'm estimating at about 30 hours per order from preorder > ready for sale)... if I price even close to my competitors, then I'm giving away the fish.
<All too common in our trade>
Granted, its still probably a better way to go as giving away the fish is better than killing the fish. Do I just need to get this system down to such a degree of perfection that it's easy-peasy. Is this just the way it has to be to earn dry goods business?
<Some folks have argued (myself included) that the livestock really does just drive dry-goods sales... and that the latter pay the bills. There are a few (not many) shops that make money selling fishes, invertebrates, plants... but not much>
The problem there is that my dry goods margins are shrinking like crazy as ecommerce grows. I saw Bulk Reef Supply mention in a YouTube comment on a MACNA talk recently that the industry is moving to a 30% standard margin and that retailers aren't setup to survive on that.
I'd say he's definitely right.
<I wholeheartedly agree. I WOULD NOT offer/sell anything that you can't make/clear a forty percent NET margin on... overtime otherwise you will go broke. Our own stores gave up selling tanks, stands, canopies, some
lighting, pump, filtration lines as others locally (LFS!) were giving these away. No sense>
I guess I'm rambling beyond the point of productivity here... so I'll let you go.
Matt
<Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Dormant Cryptocaryon? Using WWM? 10/21/14
Hi,
<Uh yeah>
I have a 250 gallon fish only aquarium with a mix of puffers, surgeonfish, and angels. I had a Cryptocaryon outbreak in the spring, and brought the salinity of the main tank down to 1.011.
<As the slogan goes: "How's that working for ya?". Doesn't work>
I hit 1.011 in the middle of June. By July 1, everyone was clear with no spots visible anywhere.
<Shazamm!>
All the fish took the hypo very well, and approx 8 weeks later I started bringing the salinity back up. About two weeks ago, we hit 1.019, and I'll be damned but I'm seeing Cryptocaryon reemerging on some of the fish.
There have been no new additions since the spring.
<Oh! Imagine my surprise!>
Is it possible for a Cryptocaryon cysts to stay dormant for 8 weeks or longer?
<Yes. Please... search, read ahead of writing us>
Thank you!
-Matt P
<Welcome. BobF>
Subject:
RIght...
Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon? 10/21/14
Hi Bob, I want to thank you very much for your response. I have great respect for you, and am honored to have your attention. Just a little background, I have extensive experience with fish, marine and fresh. Right now while I type to you, I can look at my multiple tank quarantine systems and count about 2 dozen fish that are undergoing 4 week quarantine/observation with Praziquantel prophylactic treatment. I do aquariums for local schools, libraries, non-profits, etc. With all due respect, I have done extensive reading on your website, among many others. In fact, here at my desk I can pull and read "Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans" by A. Colorni. which I keep front and center, along with Fish Disease by Noga.
<Ahh!>
I have successfully treated crypto on multiple occasions. I have destroyed it here in my bare bottom quarantine tanks with Cupramine. I have successfully beat it out of a 200 gallon reef tank using standard protocol for Hyposalinity, catching all fish from tank and moving them to a bare bottom treatment tank, and then utilizing hyposalinity in the treatment tank while the reef remained fallow for 8 weeks. That worked, however I lost the surgeonfishes, in part I believe because I improperly put both of them in the same 75 gallon treatment tank and they got too stressed from being that closely confined with one another. The problem I'm having with the tank I emailed you about is the sizes involved. The fish are large and moving them to separate treatment tanks is not a good option. So I wanted to treat their main display as a large treatment tank and try and root out the crypto using hypo in the display tank itself.
<Well; the causative organism won't go entirely, but one can "tip the balance" to fish hosts via such techniques>
There are no inverts, and it's not a reef type tank. Just a fish only with liverock and livesand, plus a refugium downstairs with a deep mud bed and mangroves (plus skimmer, rowa reactor, UV, etc.). In your response you said "Doesn't work". What specifically are you referring to?
<Hyposalinity itself to eliminate Protozoan fish diseases.>
Using 1.011? If I were to go to 1.008, would that potentially lyse my Tomonts? I have been operating under the assumption that Tomites needed salinity above 1.012 in order to swim to and attach to a fish, and that
after 4 weeks, there will be no more Tomonts left to hatch Tomites. Are there specific flaws in these assumptions?
If so, what are they?
<Specifically the length of time of embedded intermediates; perhaps off-host resting stage>
Thank you very much for your time. -Matt Parsons
<Thank you for requiring further discussion Matt. I will try to be more informative: Have yet to see scientific proof that hyposalinity (lowered specific gravity exposure of infested fishes) as employed by hobbyists,
effect a real, permanent cure. Rather than paying partial lip service, in any way encouraging the general public (myself; though yes, others here, independent content providers I've purchased writing for WWM) DO consider
hypo. a reasonable treatment modum. I AM a fan of bare bottomed tanks/vacuuming, the use of quinine compounds, some very wide copper compound use with most fish families. AND a giant fan of exclusion SOPs
(dips/baths, pH adjusted freshwater, often w/ formalin).
Some friends in the trade utilize quite low spg as an ongoing means of external parasite control; in turn saving money on salt mix, lessening other (e.g. algae) maintenance issues.
Re: Dormant Cryptocaryon? 10/21/14
Thank you for your response.
<Glad for the opportunity to put forward my understanding; and learn from others>
I have two options at this point-
1- try some sort of quinine compounds after thorough research.
2- just keep the salinity low. The Fish really don't seem to mind it, and yes it does save quite a bundle of money for salt, and the rocks certainly stay clean of encrusting algae growth as well.
<Ah yes; as prev. mentioned, one friend, Mitch Ichinotsubo (who penned a fish disease book w/ Bob Goemans notably), told me at a Fish Hlth. Conf. we were presenting at that he keeps his FO service accounts permanently at 1.012 spg>
I've read differing reports on the long term effects of depressed salinity on the marine teleost kidney function.
<Yes; I as well. I do know that many advanced bony fishes do venture into brackish to pure freshwater, sometimes for extended durations... apparently with impunity>
That's my only fear with keeping the tank at depressed salinity indefinitely. But like many things written on the internet, there's a damn good chance it's bunk.

I've been of the hopeful mindset that Crypto could be rooted out of display tank. It's starting to look like the sort of thing that needs to be managed long term, without ever a clear decisive victory.
<A good point of view IMO/E>
I am in a position where people call me to fix their problems once they are well in over their heads. As such, It can be painful for me knowing how important proper quarantine with prophylactic treatment is to preventing
these issues, and that most of the time, people haven't done that and I have to sweep up the mess. I do my best, and have a pretty solid track record of keeping fish alive and healthy for years and years (Seems like a deep mud bed with macroalgae really makes a big difference in overall health for fish along with proper nutrition).

I am going to try and monkey around with the salinity in this tank for the next 3 months. I may keep it at 1.011 for 3 months, and then try and bring it down to 1.008 for 3-4 hours to potentially lyse any remaining Tomonts
that have not yet hatched. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky. I'll keep you posted, it'll probably be about 6 months before I truly find out if this new protocol works.
<Mmm; am given to (hopefully) suggest to some budding/searching grad. students that they work out (or just find in the pertinent literature) a protocol for sustaining the various life stages of this and other parasites... and DO the science; determine under various conditions the efficacy for treatments. For instance, DOES the use of Melaleuca HAVE any pharmacological property/ies? I think not; judging from years of second hand reports; but...>
Thank you again, it's been a pleasure. Most people's eyes get a bit glassy when I start talking fish. I've gotten so deep into the biology of Fish and coral keeping that most people have no idea what I'm talking about.
-Matt
<A pleasure to share. BobF>

FW: Paraguard Personal View. 10/17/14
Hi,
<Adam>
I would like to say the fish are all 100% well which is excellent news as the medication, SeaChem Focus and Metronidazole only arrived today some 5 weeks after ordering it. I am therefore of the belief that if you catch
Whitespot early, just a few visible spots and can create water current in all areas of the tank via several pumps etc the number of pumps depending on the size of the tank a working UV whose input area is in the central
water flow area will cure it.
<Mmm; yes; given that the fish/hosts are not "too" debilitated>
My UV is only a budget model a SunSun JUP-01 (I do not have any connection to SunSun just own the UV) but all I can say is the Whitespot is gone.
Having lost to Whitespot many times over the last 30 years and then won with copper but the said effects of copper killing many algae and it toxicity to inverts make this method a much better way. Remember the UV
turns over the tank theoretically every 10 mins which I think is also a factor.
<You can read my similar comments on WWM under the FAQs files on Infested Reef and Fish Tanks>
Thanks,
Adam.
<Welcome. BobF>

Treatment Options Early Onset Crypt in SPS 9/20/14
Hello WWM Crew,
<Scott>
I would very much appreciate your advice on what I think might be a crypt infection in my 120 gallon mixed reef system (SPS and some soft corals).
<... archived on WWM>
It is a well established (ten years and counting) aquarium, with ecosystem mud sump, LED lights and vigorous circulation. I do roughly 14 gallons
water change per week and maintain calcium and alkalinity as required for the SPS. All fish were quarantined prior to introduction into the display and include a 7" and growing Emperor Angelfish, 4" Coral Beauty Angelfish, 5" Purple Tang and 4" Sunrise Pseudochromis.
With much help from your website (thank you) I managed to keep the above fish thriving for many years with no signs of Ich for life of the system.
<No 'signs' is significant>
About a month back I introduced a Blue Spotted Jawfish,
<Not a tropical fish... see my article on WWM re>
which I kept in quarantine for four weeks and put into the display after seeing no visible pathogens for the duration. In spite of my best efforts (deep sand bed and many hiding places) the BSJ never seemed to get quite "settled". I believe this might be the precursor for which followed; about two weeks later I noticed some irritation on the right lateral fin of the Emperor Angelfish which looked like a typical early onset sign of crypt (I am sadly familiar with this infection from past mistakes in my younger days). In spite of quarantine the crypt seems to now to be active in the system..
<No fun
I was committed to a week of business travel, so as a stopgap I installed a UV sterilizer hoping it might at least hold off the pathogen. I finally returned yesterday, happy to see no signs of infection on any other fish, and some improvement on the Emperor. But as one would expect from the infection, today I noticed some signs (blemish and opaque spots) on the left lateral fin the Emperor.
I believe more definitive and quick action is now called for, which brings me to my question.
Based on research and prior experience, I am thinking Quinine Sulfate is probably the best course of action. But the difficulty arises from the number and size of the fish to be treated and seems to present two options for treatment.
The first option would be to remove the fish from the display and set up a QT system, which I suspect should be at least 60-80 gallons and be able to sustain the fish for at least six weeks while the display runs fallow. This will be costly and difficult but I am prepared to do what needs to be done.
<Mmm; I'd try a more conservative approach for now; just boosting immunity in situ>
The second choice is to remove the corals and treat the display in situ with the fish. This presents a different set of challenges in terms of keeping the corals healthy outside the display, but has the advantage of treating the display directly, and not stressing the fish by moving them into a new QT setup. Also the course of treatment would be quicker and one could reintroduce the corals after a few days of carbon filtration and protein skimming.
Right now I am leaning to the second option, but I would very much appreciate hearing the benefit of your experience and advice before moving forward. Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.
<Do see WWM re "Parasitized Marine Systems, Reefs"... the vitamins, HUFAs route is what I'd try for now.
Bob Fenner>
Scott
Re: Treatment Options Early Onset Crypt in SPS 9/21/14
Hello Bob,
<Scott>
Thank you for taking time out of your weekend to respond to my query. I currently supplement feeding with Selcon, but will read the material you suggest to see what else I might do to boost immunity in situ.
<This is really about it... perhaps a double dose of iodide-ate every three days as well>
In keeping with he above, today I spent the morning doing basic maintenance; things like water change, skimmer cleanout, removal of detritus and the like. While I was doing this it began to dawn on me that I
may have been premature in attributing the symptoms on the Emperor to Crypt. For example (1) there are no signs of infection on any other fish, (2) apart form one instance about two weeks back, the Emperor has not been scratching or "flashing" which is something I have routinely seen in the past with this infection, (3) while I see an opaque blemish on each lateral fin, they never quite degraded to the telltale white dots associated with this pathogen, and (4) typically with Crypt the infection seems to miraculously disappear after a few days to a week as the trophonts drop off the fish, only to come back much worse after the life cycle reverts to theronts in higher (and eventually deadly) numbers. In this case the fins
never quite cleared, but got gradually better on the left side and then appeared on the right side of
the fish.
<Ah yes; I see this>
The above new doubts about my diagnosis makes your suggestion for a more conservative approach for now all the more cogent. In the meantime I wonder if I might ask you to take a look at the attached photographs. The first photo shows the left side on September 2nd. This was about a week after I
first noticed the blemish on the left lateral fin and the one time I saw the fish scratching. I ascribed the lesion to the scratching but now I am not so sure. Over time the lesion has substantially healed, and until last night there were no visible signs on the right lateral fin.
<Good>
The second photo was taken today and shows the right lateral fin and the blemish, which I thought was early onset of Crypt. While you can't see it in the photo, the eye detects some irritation on the skin/scales just behind the right lateral fin when pressed down on the body.
<Mmm; the first pic looks like a physical trauma... the second unfortunately appears to be the beginning of a bacterial infection... perhaps w/ a Protozoan involved>
Could it be I am not dealing with Crypt at all but something completely different?
<Different almost assuredly... t'were their time I'd really like you to read through either ed. of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease" Diagnosis and Treatment"... expensive as an analog book, one can download as an e'... on
Amazon>
Thanks again for you time and highly valued advice.
<A "furan bath" of high concentration perhaps>
Scott

Formalin>Malachite Treatment for Wrasses exposed to Ick? 9/19/14
Aloha! Are wrasses really that sensitive to Hypo?
<Some smaller genera, species more than others; but about "medium" sensitive overall>
I have a 100g. here in Hawaii that I have enjoyed, Ich free, for years thanks to you and the hypo treatment protocol I learned here.
I have lots of live rock, with minimal gadgets, based on streamlining power consumption running off solar power and a sump filled with lava rock. I have gotten lazy and have not been QT new specimens as they come from a LFS on Kona side of the Big Island here and they pretreat with copper. I know, not smart, but I haven't had probs and based on power conservation for my solar setup, I have chose to not run the QT tank. Obviously this is not a luxury and really a MUST HAVE!
<Agreed>
I got that slap of reality when I brought a Green Hawaiian Lionfish and 3 Moorish Idols back from an ocean collection last full moon... along with a jeweled anemone crab and some Hawaiian Green Shrimp. I didn't QT them and found bad Ich all over the MI's the next morning! Doh!!!
<Idols are very susceptible>
I took them immediately back to the ocean and set up my Hospital tank. At the LFS here on Hilo side I was getting salt and was told that my wrasses will not make it through the hypo treatment, and that, I believe the Lionfish won't handle the copper, or maybe it was the wrasses as well. The point is he convinced me Formalin Malachite was my only option. Really?
<Good; tried and true approach, though nowayears am a bigger fan of Quinine compounds>
So I bought the Ich plus poison and brought it home with my bucket of salt and got to work. Finally everything is now in my 20 gal hospital
tank:
1 Juvenile Coris
1 Juvenile Green Hawaiian Lionfish
1 Small Elegant Wrasse
1 Sailfin Tang (Rescued from Petco bad icy, about to die and made it through hypo treatment and has been fine for 2 years)
1 Clown
1 Anthias
1 Blue Chromis
1 Hawaiian 2 Spot Butterfly- I think goes by a different name but very hearty.
1 Flame Angel.
<Too many disparate fishes for a 20>
Maybe too much for my 20 gal but seemed like overkill to setup my 55 gal
<Fire this 55 over>
and do all those water changes.
I have read and searched all over WWM for the last 3 days and still don't have a clear answer on what to do.
<READ re Quinine.... CP... use the search tool>
I have 2 tsp the commercial formalin/malachite formula in the 20 gal, backpack filter, bubble, bare bottom, plastic hiding shelf thing, no heater keeping steady at around 80. I'd like to add a few coral pieces but was worries about it absorbing the medicine. Only the Tang, Butterfly , Lionfish and Angel were showing any white spots, but I believe I need to treat them all, even the Wrasses that are not showing any symptoms, right?
Should I run the course of 1 week, then just flush it out with water changes... probably put carbon in my hang on filter?
I put some of the live rock from the sump in there (cinders) but the formalin will probably kill the biological, right?
<Oh yes; and quickly... have to change the water frequently>
After the week I'd like to go hypo so that the Ich is for sure gone while I allow my tank to fallow for 6 weeks. Can I do this with the list above and not kill the wrasses, lionfish etc?
<If done carefully>
Should I avoid hypo for these guys and just keep them on life support in the Hospital tank until 6 weeks?
<Need to keep a CAREFUL eye on all>
Mahalo,
Sky Kubby
<A hu'i hou! Bob Fenner>
Re: Formalin>Malachite Treatment for Wrasses exposed to Ick? 9/20/14
Thanks, Bob. I had read so many responses that Rid Ich was a joke so I was really concerned. I'm glad to hear it is a viable option.
<...? You can/could just read my/our input re Malachite Green archived on WWM>
I guess I was doubtful it would completely get rid them of Ich, because its repeated time and time again that Hypo and copper are the only 2 ways to be sure.
<Mmm; hypo- not so much/often>
So I must ask again, should I do a hypo treatment after a week of this Formalin/Malachite treatment?
<Up to you. Am not a fan>
Here's a pic of the culprits before I got them out.

When you say too many disparate species for a 20, do you mean because they are all different?
<Yes; too numerous and incompatible behavior-crowding wise>
Here's a pic so you can get a visual of the sizes. They are really getting along well and not nipping, etc, if that's what you meant. I'd really like to not have to stress them by switch tanks again. Will this work?
Many mahalos and a hui hou!
<.... again; I'd use the 55. The Kona wind/Kilauea must be getting to you.
BobF>

Re: Formalin>Malachite Treatment for Wrasses exposed to ick? 9/20/14
You said Formalin/Malachite IS a viable treatment. But then I read so much of the links that says my Rid Ich Plus is terrible and ineffective.
<... is NOT the best available, most appropriate mode/method... As I've repeatedly stated>
My more direct question is, will it rid the ich completely?
<Few ways do>
From what I gather it, by itself, will not wipe out the ich completely.
Why would I want to go 1/2 way? Thus I am seeking advice on doing what worked before, hypo salinity,
<Have already responded to this>
meter. At this point I will finish the week treatment of Rid Ich Plus Formalin/Malachite, then finish out the 6 week fallow period with hyposalinity. I just hope my Lionfish, Juvenile Coris and Ornate Wrasse can
make it. Or would you rather see me use Quinine with regular osmotic pressure (salinity).
<Yes; I would>
It's not really voggy at all here, surprisingly, despite the lava 7 miles away. Kona winds are blowing the smoke from Pele into Seaview and people are having health issues though.
Looks like Pahaoa town is likely to get the direct flow. Many are leaving/evacuating. We are on the other side of the lava in Orchidland towards Keaau.
<Saw this from friends there. No bueno>
Just clear days and good diving. There's a layer of some kind of algae bloom on the top 15 feet of the ocean from Hilo to Kalapana. I think all the debris from the hurricane washed into the ocean providing some nutrients for something to thrive. So I've been diving by the lighthouse while I still can access lower Puna. I speared a nice Omilu, goatfish and menpachi last dive and did some 80-100ft free dive drops.
<Saw some okay Ulua here in Bali the last couple weeks>
In Radiant Health,
Sky Kubby
<Not so radiant, but returning. B>
Re: Formalin>Malachite Treatment for Wrasses exposed to ick? 9/21/14
Thanks, Bob, Okay, I'll try to get some Quinine soon and do that treatment instead, as my wrasses are not liking the formalin treatment, and laying over on their side.
<Ah yes; a potent biocide... burns; kills all life: crosslinking peptides>
I'll do the quinine for a week and then just keep good water for the remaining 6 weeks. It makes sense that the Ich would be completely gone if there's no host in display, but there's so much controversy. I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but the only thing that seems to get rid of ich completely, as repeated on WWM, is Copper of Hypo. So I need to find out if Quinine, although viable, will completely kill on the fish, before I reintroduce them.
Cool, your in Bali! Our friend have a great place in Ubud to say with a spring-fed pool. We love to stay at Good Karma in the North side, great bungalows, food and giant clams right out front. Have you been there?
<Mmm; no; Pemuteran in the NW and Tulamben... >
There's a wreck west of there that had 100's of Jacks that's really cool. You probably have been, but Nusa Penida was amazing diving!
<Ah yes. Spent some few days in Nusa Lembongen this trip>
What's going on with your health if you don’t mind me asking...
<Still plugging along>
I could probably help with some free advice. I'd be happy to pay back as I have recovered from chronic illness and help people regain their health. Hit me up!
<Ahh; I do thank you>
A lot of my products are focused on rebuilding. You would like the Nano Particled Cordyceps. It's super oxygenating and has helped me free dive over 100 ft after having asthma and lung infections. Good diving today for me too.. I got a nice big Uhu and Kumu today. I grabbed a big lobster and let her and her go - she had eggs.
<Nice!>
In Radiant Health,
Sky Kubby
<Cheers, BobF, just back in the States>

Ich/velvet + Mandarin 9/3/14
Hi guys,
<Brad>
I made a dumb move and introduced a mimic eibli tang to my system without sending him through quarantine. Yes, I know...
As you can probably guess, I now have an outbreak of something in the tank.
I'm unsure whether it's ich or velvet.
<The former... or all fishes would be dead>
The tang seems to be fine, but it's cycling between my two clowns. I've decided to remove all of the fish from the tank and to set them up in a hospital tank that I'll be treating with Cupramine while allowing the display to run fallow for 8 weeks.
<Okay... though I'd have you read on WWM re quinine compounds; and Crypt and Tangs>
My question comes from my mixture of fish. Everything that I have should be fine, except for my mandarin dragonet. I'm aware of their resistance to ich, and I'm of the understanding that the same is true for velvet. But my mandarin is also exhibiting bubbles on its skin, exactly as described here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/manddisfaqs.htm
<Mmm... best to isolate this fish... not copper it. >
Should I just leave her in the display, where she'll have full roam and her constant food source?
<May act as a reservoir host... how to put this... IF you intend to leave the Mandarin in place, I might just try to effect a "stand off" with your other fishes... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above till your choices are clear>
Or would it be better to pull her out as well, treating her with hyposalinity?
<Mmm; nah>
My nightmare scenario is waiting the 8 weeks, reintroducing the other fish and then finding out that leaving her in the display causes a continued life cycle for either the ich or velvet.
Thanks,
Brad
<Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich/velvet + Mandarin 9/4/14
Thanks for the quick reply Bob.
<Welcome Brad>
So you would recommend Quinine Sulfate or hyposalinity rather than copper because of the sensitivity of the tang?
<Mmm; CP over QS; but yes>
Alternately, all of my fish are still very active and eating.
<Ahh; then perhaps not moving them.... did you do the proscribed reading?>
The infestation hasn't seemed to effect anyone but the two clowns (an Amphiprion ocellaris and Amphiprion frenatus). Should I try my luck in continuing to feed the fish with supplementary garlic and Selcon, leaving them in place rather than adding stress via the quarantine procedure?
<Yes; I would>
There doesn't seem to be any undue stress in the system, outside of the small outbreak on the two clowns. My Chromis, Firefish and foxface all seem very healthy, active and "spot free". The only other marks that I've seen on anyone are the ones on the mandarin, but she's still fat, hunting and seemingly happy.
My concern is that I have a pair of blue-throat triggers in quarantine right now. They're still 3 weeks from entering the display, but the last thing that I want is to introduce them and cause another outbreak that
they might not yet be strong/comfortable enough to fight off.

Reviewing ick treatment for Bannerfish... some reading, review on WWM NOW! 7/8/14
Dearest Bob & Crew,
<Joe>
Hope that this email finds you in great spirits.
<Ah yes; thank you>
Just a quick question today. I ordered some schooling Bannerfish from Kevin at Pacific Island Aquatics in Oahu (great guy!). Unfortunately my son had to go in for surgery and I was forced to dip them and forgo the quarantine. My entire fish population was wiped out!
<Yikes>
I was able to order some more today and plan on doing it the correct way this time (tank has been fallow for over 2 months). Please let me know how this procedure looks:
1) Acclimate fish to quarantine tank- pH, temp, salinity etc. taking about 45 minutes.
<Mmm, are you based in Hawaii? I would follow the SOP for commercial acclimation archived on WWM IF the fish have been bagged for hours>
2) Perform freshwater dip (pH and temp matched of course). Last time I did 2 minutes. Some of banners showed some signs of discomfort. Perhaps longer this time?
<See WWM... re dips/baths... I would add some formalin>
3) Add to quarantine tank and monitor.
<Ok>
4) If signs of ick appear, treat immediately.
<With... CP?>
Do you think that a copper treatment or hyposalinity would be better? I'm leaning towards treating with Seachem's Cupramine.
<See... WWM... re quinine compounds>
The banners seemed to eat fairly well last time (although pickier then others and slower to acclimate to captive foods). Any other suggestions?
<All sorts... See WWM re Heniochus period>
Thanks so much!!!
Joe
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ich Procedures; Heniochus 8/7/14
Thank you so much Bob,
<Welcome Joe>
Just an update on this. I had forgot to mention that the ick had come from 3 Schooling Bannerfish that I was able to get from Kevin at Pacific Island Aquatics in Hawaii (great guy!).
<Glad to hear/read of good experiences>
I have since ordered 3 more and added to a cycled 20 gallon long quarantine tank. Like a broken record, the Banners contracted ick at almost exactly the same time (or at least displayed the symptoms), about 10 days into the quarantine period. I did not have Quinine available and decided to use hypo-salinity, dropping the water to 1.012 while keeping pH and alkalinity near natural level (I also monitored ammonia and performed 20% water changes every 3-4 days. I also used the Seachem product "Paraguard" as directions stated. The fish seemed like they were tolerating it quite well, feasting on a mix of frozen and dried food, although they were picky at first.
<Ah yes>
The spots seemed to be unaffected at first so I performed a second pH, temp adjusted freshwater bath which seemed to alleviate the spots and invigorate the fish (FYI, Kevin states that this was NOT a good idea).
<... did he state why this is his opinion?>
All seemed well and the Henis seemed well on the way to recovery. About 10 days into treatment I started finding the fish dead.
My belief is that the ick took out the fish, as opposed to stress related to the hypo or ammonia problems due to feeding.
<Likely a combination of these... who can say which is greater?>
I'm perplexed why the same problem would occur twice in a row.
<... the Heniochus likely came in infested... Very common>
Perhaps a problem with shipment? I'm saddened that I did not have the skills/tools to fix this common ailment but at least I was smart enough to use quarantine this time.
Any suggestions? Perhaps I should avoid the Henis all together in the future or even perhaps fish from Hawaii?
<Mmm; am a big fan of this genus (just put out a book on Chaetodontids for aquariums)... and a huge fan of livestock from HI. See WWM re>
Lastly, should I bring the quarantine tank SG back up to regular levels or keep them low to eliminate whatever ick may be left faster?
<Up to you. Some friends and just acquaintances are big stompers for hypo... I am decidedly not>
Thanks Bob!
Joe
<Cheers, B>
Re: Marine Ich Procedures 8/7/14
Thank you Bob!
<Certainly Joe>
One of the reasons that I love the Henis so much is from your recommendations via WWM and CMA as well as the fact that you don't often see them in reef aquaria.
<Really neat, though at times quarrelsome, animals for large displays>
Kevin did not give a reason as to why he does not endorse freshwater dips but I have been using them for years without problems. I do not think that they would negatively effect the fish (although the second dip was quite long, almost 10 minutes).
<Have done such procedures on hundreds of thousands of marine fishes over decades in the trade; taught collectors, wholesalers re; made part of fish disease presentations, writings.... VERY worthwhile>
The Henis seemed to tolerate the Hypo just fine, eating like crazy, leading me to believe that it in itself did not overly stress them. I am beginning to agree with you that they hypo is not effective. Do you think that if I had used the Quinine that they could have been saved?
<Hard to impossible to say; would use CP instead though>
I have no experience with this medication and it does not seem to be commonly available. I will go ahead and order it though to have in the ol' arsenal.
Thanks so much Bob!
<A hu'i hou Joe. B>
Re: Marine Ich Procedures 8/8/14
Thanks so much Bob.
<Welcome Joe>
Looks like the CP is up to $50 for the smallest container! Wow!
<Dang; and it's a large amount I believe as well>
I have been looking for a specific formalin product to add to a freshwater dip but have not had much luck. Kordon's Ick Plus has formaldehyde for the first ingredient, perhaps something like this?
<Yes>
It does not have an suggestions for using as a dip though.
<I'd still use; have done so... but not full-strength (due to Malachite)...
make the bath longer (immersion ten minutes); use drops per their instructions>
Will keep researching/learning.
Thanks!!!
<Welcome. BobF>

Ich returns, again 7/31/14
Hey Bob-
<Rob>
On horses? That trip doesn't seem so dismal anymore now does it?
The porcupine puffer is coming out today and going back to lfs. No way a 40 dollar fish is going to consume money like that on me.
But I am going to try this one more time, before letting mother nature (not really though, mom nature did not put these creatures in a 6x2x2 space after all).
<Ah no>
My Achilles tang, today has nice, beautiful white speckles all over him again. 6 weeks ago, I completed a 5 week Cupramine, at a .5 level, in the display tank. No Ich for 6 weeks, no new fish, and bam here it is again.
<No fun>
I am not going to be using copper anymore, especially in a display tank. So using the research I did before, along with some new thinking, I have devised two strategies I want to employ.
First is nuke and restart. I understand the tank transfer method, but I want to think outside the box.
First, get a 55 gallon tank (probably the smallest I could get away with, having large fish) and set it up with biofilter. Throw a sponge in my reef tank for a week, to seed it, then put it in quarantine tank. Pick up some stability bacteria, and cycle the tank to handle ammonia. Copper this quarantine tank, using nothing but pvc pipes for cover. Acclimate all my fish to the quarantine tank, this way, any Ich currently on them, can not reproduce. In theory, not having a chance to make cysts or lay eggs, you would think the 10 week fallow period would need not apply here.
While all my fish are in quarantine, completely nuke my tank. Drain all water, fill with freshwater, use a strong bleach solution, let it run
through pumps, skimmer etc, and then drain, the rinse once or twice and let air dry.
Thrown out all sand I have, (been looking to switch out of sugar sand, to courser sand, easier to siphon). The rock I can disinfect (bleach?)
<Yes>
and let air dry for a week outside. After one week of air drying, after disinfecting, refill tank with saltwater, and aggressively cycle the tank.
Use bacteria, ghost feed, and monitor ammonia. I am confident I can get it to cycle in 3 weeks or less.
After fish have been in copper for a month, and being there couldn't have been any eggs in here, move fish back to display tank, monitoring ammonia levels.
I understand nuking isn't necessary, but having such big fish, not sure how they would handle being cooped up in 4 foot tank. Nuking and restarting I feel would be faster than the fallow period.
Alternate plan is utilize something other than copper. CP or quinine, which I know nothing about yet, seems to be more effective at eradicating Ich that copper.
<It is>
At this point, I have seen copper create some nitrite spikes. I am also not convinced, after using it twice, that it is effective. I have used it for a 6 week period, and then a 5 week period. To no avail.
Of course, the easiest thing to do, is do nothing, and just let nature takes it course.
Knowing the mechanics of the tank transfer method, removing potential eggs through nuking hospital tank (disinfect, then new water) why not do it in display?
<Harder to do. B>
Re: ich returns, again 8/1/14
Thanks bob,
<r>
I have read suggestion on wwm ranging from 1 part bleach, 9 parts water, and up. For my application, in a 150 gallon aquarium, using the first instruction, I would use approx. 15 gallons of bleach. Does that sound about right, my lfs said he would only use a gallon.

Also, once in the tank and circulating via return pumps and powerhead, with live rock, how much contact time is enough would you think? I am booming the whole system, starting from scratch, so I want to make sure I get it all.
<A few hours to a day>
So far I drain water out of tank yesterday, refilled with tap water, and have been running it over night. Now I want to drain, fill with tap and bleach, and leave it in there long enough to kill ich, (cysts, all of them) and get bleach out so it doesn't effect pump seals, silicone.
So to sum it all up,.......How many gallons of bleach for 150?
<A gallon or two of household strength hypochlorite>
How long to leave in there?
Thanks bob
<B.>
Re: ich returns, again 8/1/14
Thanks bob,
Nuking complete. Relocated all fish to 100 gallon trough, using sump and skimmer on trough. Minimal feeding every other day to keep ammonia down.
Drained main display, removed and discarded sane, placed rock back in tank, filled with tap water and let run for 12 hours. Everything was on, powerhead, skimmer, uv light, both return pumps. Drained this tap water, and refilled with tap water again. Added 15 gallons
<WOW. A gallon or two would have been fine as prev. stated>
of regular Clorox bleach, and ran for 5 hours. Drained tank and bleach, refilled with tap, ran all pumps etc, for 10 minutes, before draining. Once again filled tank, added prime dechlorinator, and ran for another 10
minutes. Drained an let air dry. It has been about 12 hours since everything has been dried. Smell of bleach is gone.
Tonight plan to lay down new, non sugar sand, (carib sea reef grade) , and begin putting in ro water. Once filled, mix salt, raise temp to 83, add stability, and start ammonia dosing. Hope to have this cycled in two weeks so I can return fish.
Having all the details of what I did step by step, would you say I nuked any cyst in the tank, and should be ich free?
<... except for possible residents on your fishes>
As far as fish go, I moved them from display, freshwater dipped, and directly into trough, which already had copper (Mardel copper safe) in it.
If what all my reading has made any sense to me, the display tank, is virgin, starting new, no ich. The fish went directly into a new environment, no cyst. (was dry for months) In order for ich to grow reproduce in there, they have to fall off fish and lay eggs, however, having the copper in there from the very moment they left the fish, they can not reproduce, there fore cant become reinfected.
Is my thesis correct, I have been fighting this since February, would like to end it all.
On a sadder note, did lose my Achilles tang in hospital trough. Found him after day one ripped in half, apparently removing the porcupine puffer, which I did a few days ago, was not the culprit. The only fish I saw chase him in trough was a French angel. Too bad too, the Achilles was the ich magnet that prompted this move.
nukin tank, nukin fish 8/3/14
Hey Bob,
<Robert>
I want to take the time to thank you for your genuine help and interest in the hobby. You certainly steered me in the right direction, and I appreciate that.
<Welcome>
After nuking my tank, 8 of 15 fish have perished in hospital tank, including a giant naso tang, a polleni grouper, Achilles tang, Australian tusk, to name a few. Even in 100 gallon trough, and feeding one time in 72 hours, I had a 2.0 ammonia
<!!!>
reading today. I restarted my tank today, added bio Spira, and added the remaining 7 fish into the tank. The durgeon trigger, immediate died upon return into tank, my sailfin tang within seconds was stuck to my powerhead, and the other fish look like walking death. Temp was same as hospital tank, salinity same, no ammonia, no idea whats happening.
I am fully confident these fish will be dead in 24 hours. I think its best to abandon tank, concentrate on seahorses, and move away from fowlrs. Things were looking good, one fish showed ich, I tried to eliminate, and I eliminated my fish instead. Not easy to swallow the money lost.
Again, thank you for your help, and hopefully I don't face similar disasters with seahorses.

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