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FAQs on Marine Ich, White Spot, Cryptocaryoniasis 27

Cryptocaryon and other protozoan parasites are hard to "make out" on light colored fishes.

Marine Ich 7/3/08
Hello Bob,
<Mike>
I’m into the first 24 hours of fighting the dreaded “crypt” in my 10 gal QT using Seachem Cupramine and a lower specific gravity of 0.011.
<This is low>
I initially vacuumed out all gravel
<... there should be no gravel present>
to minimize Tomonts and I lowered the salinity to help with stress to see if “Sonic”, a 2” Porcupine Puffer, would fight it off on his own. The spots, however, continued to increase and he continued to decline. I finally added somewhere between 0.2 and 0.5 ppm copper sulfate last night (it’s hard to accurately determine the concentration with a color comparison test kit, especially one using blue hues since most males are somewhat color blind to blue to begin with).
<... Mmm... need to be more accurate, consistently....>
This morning, 8 hours after adding the copper, Sonic was swimming around a bit with the rising of the sun. It’s now a little over 24 hours after adding copper and he’s “begging” for food as he usually does. I gave him some dried krill soaked in Kent Zoe Marine hoping to boost his energy and immunity.
<Good>
The Puffer that was barely able to move off the tank bottom is now voraciously eating again! Although he still has numerous spots, we seem to be wining the war - many thanks to you for your advise.
<Advice>
So off to my questions;
1) Is the lower specific gravity a benefit?
<... can be>
2) At what point should I begin to raise the SG and to what value? Again, it’s a fish only quarantine tank.
<... please read... WWM re... Hyposalinity...>
3) Are the white spots that we see actually the Trophonts; or the host’s response to the Trophonts; or a combination?
<The reaction. Crypt is too small to see...>
Thanks,
Mike

Treating Ick on a Volitans Lion 6/27/08
Hello Crew and thanks in advance for your help,
<Welcome in time>
I recently (yesterday) got back from a trip to Key West for my cousins wedding.
<Ah, the Conch Republic... what a place!>
(Poor me right! ; )) While I was gone I was lucky enough to have a friend watching my tanks for me who is a fellow hobbyist on a temporary financially imposed hiatus.

Unfortunately my Volitans Lion came down with a nasty case of Ick which I have to admit is probably my fault (stress). Fatty (my lion) was the first of my fish to be transferred to my "new" 75 gallon display. The tank was cycled for 5 weeks with pre established live sand (3-4" deep) from my and my friend (the one watching my tanks) old tanks that were still running that the time. After the tests all came out with zero readings I introduced 20 lbs of "pre-cured" live rock (bought from 2 different trusted LFS) along with 5 lbs of LR from my already established 25 gal., and left tank to cycle/cure for another three weeks (tested again). Equipment is one Fluval 4 plus (seeded filter media), 2 Koralia 1 power heads, and a 200W Jager heater. At this point I added roughly 20 small mixed snails (Cerith, turbo, Nassarius) and 4 or 5 blue legged hermits
<Your Lion may swallow any/all of these in time...>
along with Fatty (about two weeks before vacation to Key West). During the transfer Fatty scraped him self on some LR while trying to flee the specimen container, but I dosed some vitamin C and he looked fine in a few days. Sorry if I'm being long winded here, but here the question/advice needed part. I have a five gallon bucket, 10 gallon tank, and another 25 gallon tank to use for the FW dip, chemical med dip/HT, and QT while I let the 75 gallon go fallow for the next couple months. My plan of attack was to do a FW dip (adjusted PH, Alk, etc.)
in the bucket, then transfer fatty to the 10 gallon hospital tank for a medication period, and then finally to the 25 gallon QT for the remainder of the fallow period. For the medication I have some Quick Cure already from a FW Ick out break a few years ago, but I'm hesitant to use it given that lions are scale-less fish (at least I think they are)
<Do have fine scales, but you are right in that they are more than usually sensitive to copper and formalin>
and it's a harsher medication. From my research I see that Formalin 3 is highly suggested in the FAQ's, so do you think I should spend the extra $ and get it (or something else) instead of the Quick Cure I already have? Thank you again for your help, and continued dedication to this amazing hobby.
Thanks,
Darren Cothern
<I would first try just adding the Quick Cure (it has formalin as well) to the dip/bath solution... at appropriate strength (see WWM re)... enroute to transferring the Lion, vacuuming the 25 tank bottom daily (to remove tomites)... to see if this "does it"... Should be able to see w/in a week... Bob Fenner>

Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/19/08
Hi Bob
<Jon>
I’ve been reading your site for a while now but have fortunately never had the need to email you before. It’s an amazing site and is always the first place I come to and recommend to others. I’ve been keeping fish for about 20 years now (wow, is it that long? Yikes!)
<Yes, time whips>
and in the last 5 years turned my hand to marines. I am completely devoted to my aquatic friends and spend many hours a day making sure they’ve got the best environment they can with the funds I have to spend.
<Good for us>
I started with a Jewel Rio 240 and worked my way up to a 500litre set up with sump filter and refugium. I always build my own stands, hoods, cooling & filter systems as I find tailor made set-ups always best, not to mention fun and a challenge to build.
<Great>
In five years of keeping Marines the one and only thing I’ve had die is a turbo-snail and that appeared more to do with the Copperband Butterflyfish I had at the time (not dead, returned to my LFS). I’ve fragged many corals for friends and shops as I see this as a way of spreading the love and preventing wild collection of species (I used to breed Iguana’s and water dragons for the same reason).
<Ah, good>
I won’t go into the corals I have as there are simply too many to list but the only fish I have are as follows:
1 x Marine Betta - Calloplesiops altivelis
2 x Yellowtail Blue Damselfish - Chrysiptera parasema
1 x Bullseye Jawfish - Opistognathus scops
1 x Foxface - Siganus vulpinus
1 x Watchman goby – still trying to identify the exact species but I’ve had him for 6 months – will send you a pic if you want J
1 x Mandarin fish - Pterosynchriopus splendidus
1 x Rainford's Hover Goby - Amblygobius rainfordi
1 x Radiant Wrasse - Halichoeres iridis
I’ve had all these fish for at least 6 months, the Marine Betta for 5 years (he hand feeds and will allow me to touch him – he’s amazing!)
<Neat!>
2 weeks ago I moved the main tank in with my girlfriend so the whole thing was taken apart, moved and reassembled in 16 hours and everything, to my complete and utter relief, was perfect – except the 9inch Deresa clam losing his grip on the rock but he’s firmly attached again now J
In the meantime and after much deliberation I decided to go for a tang, something I’ve always wanted to try to keep but have been reluctant due to them being particularly susceptible to Marine Ich. I decided to go for a Gold rim tang - Acanthurus glaucopareius as I think it’s one of the nicest I’ve seen and found one in one of the shops in London. I bought him before the move and acclimatised him in a 2ft QT for 2 weeks
<Mmm, not long enough...>
and he was fine, nothing to report except a little stressed movement and hiding whenever I approached. Feeding well though on frozen mysis, marine mix, green and purple algae sheets and live brine shrimp.
So, once the tank was rebuilt after the move I added him to my tank thinking that with the new rock structure all the fish would be in a “New” surrounding and less likely to fight. After a little tussle with the Betta over who slept where (in which the Betta got his tail ripped – it healed in under 2 days though which was quite surprising) everything was fine.
He’s been in the tank for 2 weeks and last night I noticed a few white spots on his pectoral fins. I have a VERY large hand held magnifier so watched him through this and it certainly looked like whitespot and not air bubbles as mentioned in one of your threads. Unfortunately that was at about 11pm and I didn’t have time to sort it out and this morning the Foxface also has the ich *sigh*. Where did I go wrong?
<The foreshortened quarantine... perhaps lack of a useful dip/bath (with formalin, aeration), the selection of species...>
If you would be so kind as to give your thoughts on what I plan to do next I’d be most grateful. I’ve read all the threads on WWM and a few other sites so hopefully this will meet with your approval (It’s just that I’m really scared about losing what has been my own little place of sanity over the last 5 years so I want to run it past someone with oodles more knowledge and experience than myself)
<Mmm, I suspect that judging by your apparent intelligence here, involvement in the hobby, and recent review, you could likely write the gist of what I'm about to...>
INTERIM MEASURES (until I can get a hospital tank set up)
Step 1 – Freshwater dip in same pH and temp water for Tang, Foxface (and Marine Betta just to be safe).
<Mmm... if you're going the treatment route (see below), I'd lower the spg a few thousandths and add formalin per spec., and move all through the dip to new/separate water/system circumstances>
Step 2 – buy another Cleaner Shrimp - Lysmata amboinensis (I have one already but 2 is better than one I guess). I would buy a Neon Goby - Elacatinus oceanops, but I’m not sure if the Betta would eat him?
<Odds are that it would not>
He’s left the Hover Goby alone and he’s a similar size? What would you recommend?
<Both the shrimp and the goby>
LONG TERM MEASURES
Step 3 – set up 3ft Hospital tank with mechanical and biological filters using some media removed from main sump filtration system.
Q. Having never needed to set up a hospital tank before will a 3ft tank be big enough for these three fish?
<Yes>
And all fish together if necessary?
<Yes>
Q. Will I need lighting in this tank?
<No>
If they are in the ambient light near a window and also near the main tank they are likely to be less stressed due to less light, correct?
<Not much... comparatively>
Step 4 – treat with a copper based treatment for 2 weeks and then observe for 2 weeks.
<Chelated, yes>
Step 5 – return fish to the tank after a further two weeks if no further infestation develops? (6 weeks in total)
Q. Do I regularly feed them during this time or will excess food cause problems?
<Feed, with water quality testing, changing out as necessary>
Your sagely advice would be most appreciated and I’d like to thank you in advance for any help you can give.
(You can post this if you feel it would help anyone but to be honest I feel rather ashamed that this has happened so if possible could you just reply instead of posting it on the website?)
<There is no shame... and know that by our admissions we earnestly help others>
Many thanks
Jon
<Now, my overall stmt. re your situation. You are faced with a crossroads... one that I can/will not be able to advise either way re. You can/could go ahead with the course of treatment you propose above... Or... elect to wait, see if this infestation will go (likely) sub-clinical... That is, you could hope for a latent situation in which your fishes will not be much-parasitized... nor have to undergo the rigours of toxic and stressful treatment. This is no easy choice... and yes, specific pathogen free circumstances are much more preferred. What will you do? Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/20/08
HI Bob
<Jonathan>
Thanks so much for your quick response.
<Welcome>
At first I saw that the email bounced back from your hotmail so I've sent it onto the "Crew" email address again so please ignore my 2nd email.
<Have deleted>
I got home last night and the tang and Foxface appeared active and healthy, and the infestation had not increased.
<Mmm, may be simply cycling, but... my stmt. re "choices" stands>
My poor Marine Betta is suffering though. He has some ich on his pectorals and head but on the surface it doesn't look as bad as the tang and Foxface. However, I think he's affected more due to the size of his scales as it would appear the infestation it happening under his scales?
<Perhaps>
Is this possible or could the stress have brought on something else?
<Doubtful>
Around his head his scales are erect and looked similar to dropsy in tropical species, but was localised to the head area with some patches of discolouration on his flanks. He was also breathing heavily and his mouth parts were extended due to infection in the crease above his lip.
<You have a sharp eye>
So, I decided to perform a freshwater dip on the tang, Foxface and Betta (without formalin as I had none at the time). Many parasites on the Tang were removed and once returned to the tank
<... which is infested>
he returned to normal behaviour in a matter of minutes and appeared to have small empty dots in his grey colouring where the parasites previously were. The Betta was a different story. Some parasites visible on the outer scales appear to have gone, although his lip remained extended, scales erect and eyes were somewhat cloudy - possibly due to excess slime production after the dip?
<Maybe>
However, he remained on the bottom in the Caulerpa staying quite still and breathing heavily. He did react to me peering at him by expanding all his fins to display though so fingers crossed.
I couldn't catch the Foxface as it's unbelievably good at hiding and the added colour changing camouflage made it almost impossible to find once it knew what I was up to. It also seems to have learned a trick from by wrasse in that he buries himself in the sand?
<Mmm, no>
Wasn't aware it would/could/knew how to do this?
<Me neither... Lo dudo>
I will go to the LFS tonight and purchase (or perhaps borrow since I have a great relationship with them) both another shrimp and a goby. I will also purchase a 3ft tank, formalin and chelated copper for the next stage if it goes that far.
I'd rather avoid the use of chemicals if I can but I really don't want to lose the Betta so I'll see how he's doing tonight and make the decision then. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for your advice, it's much appreciated :) Once everything's looking nice again I'll send photos.
Thanks
Jon
<Stay balanced and informed Jon... BobF>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please - 6/20/08
Thanks again bob. I finish work in 2 hours, 5 min.s and 3 sec.s so I should have a hospital tank set up in less than 4 hours time :)
<Precise!>
I will then begin the task of dismantling the tank rockwork to catch the fish and separate them from the infestation.
Many thanks
J
<Welcome. B>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/25/08
Hi Bob
<J>
I've set up a hospital tank as discussed but it appears that after the freshwater dip the Marine Betta recovered although the Tang still has mild infestation post dip. The fox face has cleared up of his own accord - possibly due to the additional cleaner and gobies.
<Perhaps>
I'm now weighing up the pros and cons regarding treating the fish and letting the tank go fallow vs. using no chemicals and seeing if it doesn't reoccur (please oh please don't reoccur!).
<Will do so... IF challenges are presented... or a hyperinfective state is introduced with new livestock. Best to be very careful re quarantining, acclimating all new>
As I said, I've bought an additional cleaner shrimp and two cleaner gobies to help. I will be keeping a close eye on the inhabitants over the coming weeks / months to see if the infestation reoccurs.
I do have one further question though, which looking back through my emails I don't think I asked? I'm aware that stress can bring on / aid the speed of infestation of Ich in fish. Is it possible that the infestation could have been accelerated by a change in diet for the tang?
<Mmm, yes>
I use many methods to target feed certain inhabitants of the tank, especially the mandarin since he competes for food with the hover goby and watchman goby to come extent. Do you think if I prevented the tang from consuming large quantities of mysis / other meaty foods this may help?
<Mmmm, doubtful>
A loose theory perhaps but I know that with Iguana's (that are primarily herbivores) if you feed them too much meat based food it can affect their digestion process and cause all manner of problems - plus they're less likely to let go once they bite and draw blood.
Many thanks
J
<Worth trying though. Reciprocally, providing nutritionally complete, easily recognized/palatable (i.e. accepted) foods DOES provide a good deal of stress-avoidance... Cultured macro-algae, dried... is best here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich - I've read up on it on WWM and other sites but would like your personal opinion too please 6/25/08
Thanks Bob
<Jon>
Will let you know how I get on.
I've attached a picture of the tank before the move for you and of my
clams :)
Cheers
J
<Ahh, very nice. BobF>

SW... crypt, stkg... (aquarist needs to start reading) -06/19/08
hello
My name is Katrina I have had my saltwater tank for a year now. It was set up in a 10 gallon to start off then a 30 gallon I used the old filter, mollies and a damsel to cycle the tanks
<Bad idea>
now I am into a 75 gallon. I do my water changes every 3rd month and I change my filters also ph is at 8.0 no nitrates or nitrites. I have a blue tang ,yellow tang, 2 Ocellaris clowns 2 damsels, engineer goby ,and my mandarin goby.
<All in a 75g? geez>
Ich has broke out in my tank I have a QT tank that is 30 gallon and I am treating it with Copper everyone seems fine but my mandarin he is very sluggish his eyes are sinking into his head and his eyes are clouded
<Likely starving to death, perhaps among other problems.>
What can I do for him he wont eat just anything he is very picky.
<Um, yeah... did you bother to research this fish before you bought it? Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mandarins.htm>
I thought about giving him a swim in the copper tank then putting him back in the big tank so he can eat but I am afraid of ich breaking out on him only.
<Unlikely... these are slimy fish, relatively resistant to external parasites. Again, lack of diligence/research will often kill your animals faster than anything else.>
he will be the only fish in the infested tank. I am at a loss what to do for him.
<About the only way to *try* and save him now might be to feed him live copepods you can buy from Adelaide Rhodes, http://www.oceanpods.com/ However, good luck trying to target feed him. It's likely the other fish will get to the pods first unless you isolate him. And it might already be too late.>
Please help I am running out of time.
Thank you Katrina
<Best,
Sara M.>

SW Ich trouble, need help please! 6/19/08
Hello,
I have found your site very useful and I tried following it but I ran into a problem.
<Following?>
I have a 55gal fish tank (planning an upgrade to 75gal soon) with a small 2-3inch dog face puffer,
<Needs more room than either of these>
a 2-3 inch flame angel, a 3 inch bullet goby, a 1/2 inch yellow clown goby, and a 2-3 inch flame goby. I also had a 2-3inch falcula butterfly fish in there too but he just died yesterday. I bought him three weeks ago with the flame goby. My tank properties are as follows: 0 Nitrite, a lot less than 20 for my nitrate (dip strip not exact), ph 8.3, and salinity is 20ppt.
<Too low>
I have an ammonia alert meter

as well and its always on "safe." I measure these twice a week and keep the tank clean at all times. I vacuum the bottom every other day
<... too frequently>
with a sludge extractor and I only use DI water in the tank. I add Nitromax
<Not reliable...>
every two to three weeks. I have a three way canister filter with a UV light system attached and a Berlin hang on protein skimmer. The heat is constant at 79 degrees F. I have about 30lbs of live rock with algae on it,
<Good>
a few tiny hermit crabs, and live sand for sediment. No corals or plants. I feed the fish daily. I feed them mysis, blood worms, (they refuse reef food) and additionally I give the puffer 4-5 pea size pieces of squid, mussels, crab, and shrimp meat from the grocery store. I soak all of the food in Selcon before serving it. I have had most of the fish for 6 months.
All seemed to be fine until the butterfly angel wasn't hungry anymore for two days and then on the third day developed labored breathing and died.
<No... quarantine... entry "strategy"...>
I noticed what looked like sand
<Oh oh>
in his fins a few days ago and I didn't think anything of it until he was really sick (my puffer always has sand stuck to him so I figured it was real sand). The same day it died, I investigated the other fish. The puffer developed the same sand like marks on his fins, which weren't sand. So I realized it was an ich outbreak. He has been acting normal, excited to see me, eating well, swimming well, not scratching, and his eyes are clear. After further investigation, I noticed the bullet goby has about two tiny crystal spots on his back fin and the flame angel has about five tiny spots through his tail and body. The flame goby and the yellow clown goby look clear.
This morning I took out the carbon pad in the filter and added three packets of Super Ick Cure
<No! Not to your main tank...>
(3.6 mg Malachite Green and 60 mg Nitrofurazone per packet) as soon as the pet store opened at 9am. That's half the recommended dose since the puffer has soft scales.
<...>
So my problem was that the outbreak looked worse this evening than it was this morning when I put the medicine in. The puffer has about 5 spots on each side fin and the tail fin, as well as about 5-10 spots on his body. They are hard to see since his fins are always white and his body is white unless stressed. I called the LFS and read your site, both advising a fresh water bath.
<... along with being moved to new setting>
I spent about an hour preparing the solution just right. After I finally caught my puffer, he blew up as big as he could, I quickly put him in the bath for about 5 seconds but when I realized he was too upset and would not deflate, I quickly put him back in the tank. He floated upside down for about 10 seconds before deflating and went in his rock cave all upset and sulking- labored breathing and his coloring was a little dark. His stomach looked a little spiny from being inflated so far.
That is my problem. I was too spooked to continue and the other fish weren't cooperating so I left them alone. I am worried that I may have gotten the puffer too stressed out and I may have compromised his immune system further.
<Well-stated>
He seems fine now though, he's begging for food. I don't think I can do it to him again. I am wondering if the medicine alone will help.
<Not what you have done, no... Neither Malachite nor Furan cpd.s will effectively cure Crypt... esp. at half dosage, and with being chemically complexed in a set-up with rock, gravel... You should have read a bit more... quarantined/dipped-bathed all new fish livestock...>
I read to turn the light off and I think I'll do it tonight. The directions for the medicine say to add another dose in 48hours and then 2 days later add the carbon back into the filter and do a 25% water change.
<... My friend... this treatment is worth than worthless here. Please... don't "follow" my stmt.s/advice if you will, but READ references rather than listen to whomever this was at the LFS...>
The LFS told me that if I don't see a change by tomorrow the medicine is probably not going to work
<...>
and not to try raising the temperature because the puffer won't tolerate it.
<?>
I read I can't use copper because it is harmful to the puffer since he is so soft. I also read to continue the medicine dosages for two weeks to ensure the parasite is gone, but how do I know that I won't poison the fish?
<... read re these materials... at least on WWM>
The puffer library says to quarantine all of the fish separately for four weeks, is that really necessary?
<It is a very good idea>
It also eludes that success rates are low. I am really worried and I want everything to be okay with my fish. What should I do?
<Read, soon... formulate a plan... get/set-up/use a "treatment tank/set-up"... bare... use effective treatment... these are again gone over and over on WWM>
Please help, I love my fish and I can't bear to part with them. The diver from the LFS even brought back the puffer from Christmas Island especially for me on special request. I attached a picture I just took of my puffer along side my flame goby and flame angel for you.
Thanks a lot for any assistance,
Lesley
<I do wish we could start "way back" and make sure you had useful knowledge, effective procedures for excluding these sorts of problems. You have a great challenge ahead of you... I would get the new trtmt. sys. going stat., and read re possibly using Quinine and hyposalinity... Bob Fenner>

Re: SW Ich trouble, need help please! 6/19/08
Bob,
I'm sorry to have seen that my request for help was so cumbersome to you.
<?>
I have read your website extensively but before I go to extremes I wanted individual advice.
<Your situation is not unusual... bad advice from a LFS, a lack of understanding in general. And there is no specific way to counsel you other than what I have proffered... at least that is known by me>
You actually make me feel worse about the situation by ridiculing me.
<... please>
I read the QT and hospital sections.
<Then why did you dump Malachite and an antimicrobial in your main system? This makes no sense>
I needed to know if this was appropriate for my fish as all are sick yet they are all so different. Some have soft scales,
some hard and some tolerate temperature and salinity changes while some may not, just as copper is appropriate for one but not the other. Also, if I did a quarantine, your site is not specific on what water to use, contaminated water from the main tank, from store, or brand new?
<New is best if another (used) source can't be trusted>
All details I wanted to know before moving around fish. Most puffer facts on your site are four years old and links to reference articles are broken as well.
<Please tell me where these are so they can be fixed>
Maybe there have been new medicines/methods since then, that's why I asked. I requested help because I am not an expert but I am trying. I found your response to offer no specific advice and to be quite discouraging. I apologize for disturbing WWM with my lack of expertise. In the mean time I have taken other measures.
Thanks.
<... Good luck to you, your livestock. RMF>

(And later:) Actually another user on your site said they used Super Ich Cure and the counselor had no objections and actually said to continue the use. My lack of understanding comes from multiple sources who all have different opinions and products labels. There is no fish care Bible available, every hobbyist has different advice, all I can do is live and learn. Thanks again, I do not require a response.

<<I would make an input here re the reality of there being conflicting viewpoints on several topics, particularly disease treatment on WWM. Though there are others here who have personally kept more puffer than I, I want to state that it is S.O.P. in the trade to treat all Tetraodontiforms, including all puffer species with copper, chelated and not. There are many wholesale and retail operations... decades back to present who do so... Mine/ours inclusive. Copper is more irritating to some groups of fishes than others, but it is still the medicant of choice for external protozoan parasites. One must of course adhere to certain principles of testing, monitoring water quality... RMF>>

2nd time with ich, Marine treatment 6/4/08
Dear WWM crew,
<Hello>
Thank you so much for all your helpful advice.
<Welcome>
Two days ago I did a major cleanup of my gravel (vacuumed + 30% water change) in my 75 gal. tank and yesterday I noticed white spots on my yellow tang. : (
Let me back track a little. About 4 months ago I bought a vermicular angel fish and put him in my tank... yes... 2 days later he had ich.
<A lesson on QTing.>
Being new to this hobby (now it's been about 6 mths) I went running to my LFS, they quickly sold me a product Kent XP because it was "reef safe" and I had some live rock + sand and some shrimps, snails and hermit crabs.
<Are you referring to Kent RXP? If I remember correctly this is one of those pepper based products, which is not going to help your situation.>
I went home to use it but my angel died and my yellow tang now had some spots. I also have 5 blue/green chromis, 2 cardinals, one molly, one engineer goby and 1 oc clown. Sooo I used the product for 14 days, followed the instructions and to my surprise the ich was gone. Or so I thought...
<Doubtful...>
Which brings me to today. Since then I found your web site, wow. I love it. I am in the middle of transitioning my FOWLR to a reef tank, and last week a bought 20 lbs of live rock, which came from the display tank of the LFS, so I thought it would be safe to put it in my tank. Then my yellow tang got ich.
What do you think happened?
1- The live rock had ich so it was re-introduced?
<Reintroduced? No, was most likely still there, which is not to say the LR did not bring in reinforcement.>
2- The ich was in the tank all along and the cleaning of the sand stressed the yellow tang so he succumbed to the parasite?
<Cleaning and stress probably had little to do with it, the fish was most likely already well infected, perhaps the cleaning pushed it over the edge, but I would guess the fish was never ich free.>
Well, after the first incidence of ich, I bought a 10 gal. tank for QT. I've had it running for 2 mths now. When I saw the yellow tang, I took him out and put him in the QT. I was about to put him through hyposalinity when I read Bob's comments on hyposalinity and how it was not proven 100% effective.
<I kind of disagree with Bob a little bit on technicalities here, I do believe hypo can work if done very strictly, however I don't think it is realistic for the average hobbyist to maintain SG with the necessary accuracy to work in practice, so it is not a route I would generally recommend.>
Soooo, what shall I do? According to him, I should use copper.
<Copper is pretty tough on tang and clowns, and the goby may have trouble too, although it will work without question as long as it is maintained at therapeutic levels. The quinine family of drugs, or formalin will work also, but with their own drawbacks and issues. Take a look over WetWeb and see what you feel most comfortable with. Try starting here and WetWeb FAQs http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php >
So now the question is, should I treat all my fish with copper in the QT tank and let the DT remain fishless for 4 weeks?
<4 weeks is the bare minimum, does not leave a lot of 'wiggle' room, I would count on double that time.>
Are there too many fish for this 10 gal. tank?
<Assuming you still have all 10 fish, then yes by far. 29G tank are still fairly cheap and small, if you could go this route I think you have a much better chance at success.>
Also, my engineer goby is about 5 inches long and is always buried under the sand, will he be OK in this tank with a bare bottom?
<Lots of PVP pipes here should help.>
Please advice, I am going to my LFS and buy the copper so I can start today.

Thank you once again for all your help. This is the 2nd time I get ich and I don't want this to happen once I get all my corals + other inverts in the DT. So I want to do things the right way.
Thank you,
Sincerely
Erika
<Read over the articles and FAQs, come up with a plan that you feel comfortable and able to execute, and proceed. Be prepared for large daily water changes, have aquarium "tool" dedicated to the QT only, and pick up some Bio-Spira if you can find it to give the bio-filter a jumpstart. Good luck.>
<Chris>

Crypt, Marine Treatment 6/4/08
Hi All!
<Hello>
I was hoping I would never have to write this email, but it seems that I have a crypt episode in my 75 gallon reef. My tank is 18 months old, and I found your site while it was cycling, so I was educated about and have employed quarantine procedures since my first fish. Alas, I moved my tank last month, and now I have Crypt. I am assuming that I stirred something up in the sandbed when moving the tank, and the fish may have had an outbreak a couple weeks ago, but I attributed it to everything being "silty" from the move.
<Uh oh.>
I have set up my hospital tank (29 gallon) but I fear I now the 29 gallon will be very crowded. I also have my 10 gallon QT tank that I can set up. After hours of reading, I am doubtful that my selection of fishes can tolerate copper (which I have ready, with a test kit).
<Copper is very effective, so having 2 tanks can be useful here, copper for those that handle it well, and another treatment in the other tank for those that do not.>
The fish showing signs are:
Magenta Pseudochromis
Neon Goby
and my pair of False Perculas
Other fish are: (not showing signs)
Lyretail Anthias
6 Blue-Green Chromis
and my Scooter Blenny

I believe that my Anthias is getting the spots too, but he takes advantage of the Cleaner Shrimp every morning and evening, so he never has spots for long.
<Studies of shrimp guts do not indicate they feed on the parasite, at least not directly, more likely picking at the wound around the infection site, but does seem to help control the infection.>
I am going to fallow the display 5-6 weeks, and I was going to treat everyone with copper in the hospital tank, but after reading, I have found that most of my livestock is sensitive to copper (I think I read- all but the Pseudochromis are)! So should I put him in the 10 gallon and treat only him with copper, and the rest in the 29 with hyposalinity?
<I would probably go with a uniform treatment here, too much work, chance of confusion for just treating a single fish. Check out here for details on several treatment options and see what you are most comfortable with http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .>
My other thought was to put the Blenny in the 10 gallon with an established HOB refugium I have and monitor him for crypt, but not treat yet. The Blenny eats frozen Mysis, but I don't want him totally stressed but not being able to graze after plunking him on a bare bottom tank with PVC pipes. While leaving the rest in the 29 with hyposalinity.
<Possible, the dragonet is sort of a wild card here, fairly ich resistant so it is possible it is not at least a "carrier". Unfortunately to me there is no right or wrong answer here, both treatment and non-treatment carry their own risks.>
Thoughts, ideas, opinions? This is my first time dealing with this, and it seems there are so many options out there.
Thanks a bunch!!
-Esther
<As I was answering another similar query to this a few minutes ago I was thinking how easy it is to treat for Crypt if only the fish could handle it. Unfortunately that is where your issue is in my eyes, a question of balance between an effective cure and poisoning your livestock. Now if you are feeling especially motivated, and can get another 29 cheap the transfer method could work nicely for you, especially with the dragonets. See here for some details on that method http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm . Otherwise consider which other treatment methods suit you best.>
<Chris>

Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt... again 6/1/08
Bob,
Since we discussed this yesterday, help me with some logic. I found an ABT at a store yesterday, the fish had been there at least 4 weeks. I saw it at
this location a while back and remembered it, and since it was still there I decided to take a look at it. I purchased it, a 4" Specimen which looked
healthy and was eating well.
I took the fish home, acclimated it, and gave it a 4 minute FW bath, PH adjusted, prior to introducing it to the tank. It acclimated well and was
eating last night. This morning, it was covered in Ick.
<! There is very likely a resident population/infestation>
Now, from all that I have learned from here, I am making an assumption that the ick is NOT a result of introduction from this fish. My logic is that by
giving it a FW dip, it having no prior signs of ick, and by not introducing any water from the bag into my tank, there is no way that this much ick
could have been introduced and show up in 12 hours on the fish... Which means that it was present in the main system.
<Yes>
Now you may recall that ick was defeated some months ago using the Quinine Sulfate.
<Mmmm, this doesn't mean it was completely gone... the cysts could have survived the treatment>
Aside from some new live rock, there haven't been any introductions, and certainly nothing recently. Obviously, the new Tang, being weaker, stressed, susceptible so to speak, has ick... but no other fish (at this time) shows any cysts at all. Those consist of the Passer Angelfish, the Lunare Wrasse, Yellow Tang, and a Tomato Clown. But, despite all the care I've taken, I have this scourge in my system again.
<Expressed again... was always there>
Now, unfortunately, I had to go to work this morning (don't mention to my boss I'm more concerned about my fish than making calls...) so I was unable
to do anything right away, but hopefully I can get home early this afternoon to do something. The 20gallon QT tank, nor any tank of any manageable size,
is going to work as a hospital tank while the system goes fallow, so I'm faced with using the Quinine again.
<Mmm, maybe... I'd wait out this appearance and see if the current situation resolves (not solves permanently) itself>
I've got some live rock with fan worms, etc, that I might can fit in the 20gallon, and of course I can pull the snails as well. How long, after this first coating of ick, would you guess
a fish has to live?
<Perhaps years...>
Reason is: If the ick has been present all this time, will the other fish develop it now?
<Not likely... sometimes a hyper infection can/will develop... people, particularly in the West don't understand that such parasite-host relationships are not a matter of all or nothing... but a balance, ever-shifting...>
My guess is no, if they've been resistant all this time. If it's too late to save this ABT ($50 flush), is it better to take the time to formulate some other plan? My first choice is
to save this fish, of course.
Thomas Roach
<If it were me, mine, I'd be patient... wait for now... boost the fish, systems immune system... with probiotics, garlic, what have you. Don't panic (shades of Doug Adams). Bob Fenner>
Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Tang, Crypt – 06/02/08
Hey, thanks again, Mr. Fenner.
I'll give you an update... Friday AM was the day the ABT was completely covered in 100's of the cysts... Getting home Friday afternoon, I guess it had cycled because they were off him. I'm feeding them a tad more now to make sure they get energy/nutrition to fight it, soaking the food in garlic and not adding medications. Saturday all day, no cysts were present on any fish, including the ABT. Today, Sunday morning, there are some cysts present on the ABT, but not hundreds, more like 8 - 10, which I think it could handle.
No treatments have been done, I held off the quinine on a gut feeling (hey, maybe some of your knowledge transmitted through a 6th sense or something...). Anyway, continuing along this path, and I'll send you updates. Thanks for validating my course of action!
Thomas
<Welcome Thomas. BobF>
Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt 6/5/08
Hey Bob, quick one this time. I wrote this one below on Monday this week...
we had no signs of ick until this morning, Thursday. I did a 10% water change last night, vacuuming substrate and scrubbing hard algae off the
glass. This morning most of the fish have a small outbreak of ick, not just the ABT. This is the first time the other fish have shown any cysts. Think
the stress of the water change may have caused it, and do you think I should continue the non-treatment or go to the quinine bullpen? It had been about 5 days since there had been any active sign of the Ick.
Thanks,
Thomas Roach
<Mmm, if it were mine, the Quinine. B>
Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt
Ok, will do. I've got the 20gal to put some of the LR in, with some clams & such, maybe save a few ?pods. I had some fan worms that did survive the last treatment, not so confident on them making it, though. I guess I'll start this process tonight. Ugh. Misery. I better buy some more beer.
<Good quality as well>
I suppose it was worth a shot to see if they could outlast it. It certainly wasn't like ick I've seen... this seems much more noticeable, as far as cyst
size.
<Remember the cysts are NOT the Crypt, but the hosts reactions...>
It's definitely ick, makes me wonder if that horrible deal I had to mess with last year was Oodinium. But they just don't seem near as numerous
as ick I've seen in the past this time. And the smallest tad larger.
Quinine it is. Will post results.
Thomas Roach
<Thank you. BobF>
Re: Oh No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Crypt 6/6/08
Ick combined with my In-Laws for the weekend... I'm thinking Mexican beer, maybe Corona, but perhaps Modelo. Try the Shiner Bohemian Black if you get a chance, but make sure it's ice cold...

I began treatment this morning. I siphoned 20g of water from the main tank into a 20g bare bottom tank and pulled as many hermits, snails, and 3 large LR pieces that had inverts and tube worms on it to try and save them. Dosed with recommended quinine from NFP. Obviously I replaced the 20g with fresh salt water. How long do you think the Quinine will take to begin being effective and providing relief?
<Within a day>
I have been feeding heavier the last couple of days with mysis and Emerald Entrée to try and keep the fish strong, as the ABT has seemed thin. As of treatment this AM, they were all eating well and aggressively. Have not seen any labored breathing or rapid gilling, very little flashing, but they
definitely had the ick on them.
<Try PabloT's Thera A... his Spectrum pelleted food with garlic...>
Last Q: This 20g tank with LR and inverts... does it need to sit for 4
weeks before reintroduction?
<Four, six or more... B>
Thomas Roach

Re: Stumped on med effects, Crypt 6/25/08
I had hoped so, too. I cannot believe this, but this morning I had 2 ick cysts on my ABT, and two or three on my Lunare Wrasse. The little cleaner wrasse had made a full recovery from his imbalance, btw... There had been no signs of ick since this email, which was Thursday. 5 days later, I have 4 or 5 ick cysts.
<No fun>
I'm not sure now what course to take. The quinine killed off every invert except for some hermit crabs. I still have my 20g QT tank running with some live rock, snails and pods for reintroduction after it has been fallow for another few weeks. The ick sighting this morning in the main tank, though, sickens me. I'm not sure I want to put them through another 9 day Quinine bath because of the stress of this last extended treatment. As you may recall, we went with Quinine initially because of the banded cat shark that used to reside here.
<Yes, I recall>
Well, he's long gone, so that isn't an issue now. I regret having to treat the main system. Copper is a no-no, as I have read that it can be absorbed into LR and silicone, and remain a danger forever; not to mention the tangs don't like it. There is not much in the way of FAQ, deservedly so, in regards to treating a main system.
<Yes... Want to discourage... entirely>
But before I get hoodwinked into trying some of these Pet Supermarket Ick 'Snake Oils', I thought I might see if you had another idea. Methylene Blue (sp) will whack the bio system, I believe, so we don't want that.
<Won't do any good anyhow>
And even with the trials, I'm not giving up on the hobby, btw. We'll get through it somehow.
Hope this email finds you all well!
Thomas Roach
<Perhaps time to try "striking a balance here" Tom... With subclinical Crypt... BobF>

Re: Stumped on med effects
'Subclinical Crypt'... hmmm... You know, I'm sure this is what I had before, prior to introducing the ABT.
<Yes Tom... this is so>
I'm just not sure how we got to that point, or would get back to it.
<Getting the fish livestock "up to par" health-wise... allowing the Crypt to be less virulent>
You know, I recall dealing with Ick prior to finding WWM, but I also know I did everything wrong you can think of.
I remember dosing with 'Quick Cure', the formalin/malachite green ick remedy, and after reading all the FAQ on it, I can't imagine how my fish lived through it.
<Really does/can work... these compounds are of use... just toxic>
Garlic of course, I've used. And RXP, generally considered worthless as well.
<Is>
All this 'crap' on the market really frustrates a person, what we need is an aquatic FDA to regulate these claims.

Whatever procedures you recommend to attain this 'subclinical crypt' I shall follow, o wise one. :D
Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach
<Will ruminate... BobF>
Ick Remedy
Bob,
I went by an LFS and bought this... I'm not using it yet, but I had not seen it before. I figured at worst I could tell you what it is and get an opinion, and if you think it's not safe or worthless, I'll take it back. It's called 'ParaGuard', and it's made by Seachem. "A safe alternative to formalin... Contains no toxic methanol". "...employs a proprietary, synergistic blend of aldehydes, malachite green, and fish protective polymers..."
and "...only fish and filter safe aldehyde based parasite control product..." That is the pertinent info on the bottle. Any thoughts?
Thanks again!
Thomas
<Worth trying. Was just reading about ayer while making/splitting up the FW Ich FAQs files. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ick Remedy 6/26/08
I may try it, then. I may wait a day or so first, though. This morning, the ABT didn't show any cysts at all, the only fish with some was the Lunare
Wrasse, which I would have thought to be the most resilient of the tank.
When I first bought that ABT, he was thin, his upper body seemed painfully thin, but through varied feeding with vitamins, he's really 'thickened' up
and is definitely in much better shape. I believe all of my fish are quite healthy, so I've got a good shot at this.
I bought some more vitamins last night, along with Garlic Extreme (along with this 'ParaGuard', I dropped $60 on three bottles of liquid). What I
found interesting about the ParaGuard is that it makes the claim of 'safe' with a different combination of seemingly effective chemicals, verses a safe
claim using some green tea extract bull hockey and herbal horse feathers. You say you were reading about this particular product? So damn nervous about putting something unknown in the tank...
Thomas Roach
<SeaChem is a good company... Doesn't sell "pigs in a poke"... Just that resident, established situations with ciliates are so entrenched... B>

Re: Ick Remedy, Ctenochaetus sel. - 7/2/08
As an update, I still have not used the ParaGuard, so alas, I cannot give you any feedback. We seemed to have reached the symbiotic relationship in the tank with the ick and the fish... I have seen a cyst or two once in a while, but has been what, a week now? We've had no major outbreaks and seemingly no concerns. I have been feeding with Garlic Extreme and a vitamin supplement, and they seem to be doing very well.
<Good... is a place... perhaps not the ideal one... that I'd hoped for you>
My questions now turn to Tangs, and I saw a tang at a major chain store which really caught my eye. I did not purchase the tang, as I don't like to purchase livestock from these stores due to the frequent ick sightings in their tanks... however this fish was very gorgeous and I know it was there by mistake. It's something I'd like to try in the future if I can get one from another vendor. I've done some research on the fish, as best I can... it's called a Flame Fin Tomini Tang.
<A very nice Ctenochaetus species appearance wise and for aquarium use>
My reading so far consists of your book and perusing the FAQ here, and there's not a whole lot of data. Mainly I am looking for resilience and compatibility info, so bear with me. The two tangs I have now, the yellow and the Atlantic Blue, are of different genus, which is what I attribute to their compatibility which is very good. The Passer angel causes more flak between them, which is nothing more than a tail flick here or there. This fish, the Tomini Tang, is from a third genus altogether, and if I'm not mistaken, a different geographical range. Your book mentions the other two species in the genus, mainly the Kole Tang, and most of the FAQ has to do with the Kole Tang. I've found a few references to the Tomini in FAQ, but nothing specific.
I was wondering if you might take a few lines to tell me your thoughts on this fish and it's compatibility and it's durability.
<Is a sturdy member of a tough genus... readily accepts foods, aquarium conditions. However, I hasten to add that this fish, likely any addition of members of the entire suborder Acanthuroidei, are not for you here... Your tank is already "tang-ed out"... with the two you have, and unfortunately the addition of another is too likely to bring about too strong/virulent a comeback in the Crypt>
It is quite the gorgeous fish, not sure if I'd even add it at all, but something I might consider now or sometime in the future.
<In another system>
Once again, we all appreciate your time spent and thoughts on our various needs, questions, and issues.
Thanks so much,
Thomas Roach
<Thank you for this update Thomas. BobF>
Re: Ick Remedy 7/3/08
Ah, yes, I really didn't plan on adding any fish now. In the event of an untimely fish death I might, but hopefully that would only occur from old
age... and you answered part two as well, that of the reoccurrence of ick that adding a new specimen (not just of tangs, but of any fish) might cause.
That bothers me more than anything, really. Even if I lost a fish or traded one in (thinking Lunare wrasse at some point, it is quite boisterous, and
eternally hungry), I'm not sure how I would bring about another addition.
<Slowly, deliberately... mixing new water from the quarantine to/from the main/display... assuring new fish/es are very healthy before moving>
I have too much live rock to 'start over' with. I would like to add a few small chromis (green or blue) damsels if possible, perhaps 3 or 4. What do
you attribute the current stock's resilience to crypt, the presence of garlic in their system (meaning ingestion, of course) or just overall health?
<Mostly the latter... perhaps with a bit of acquired immunity tossed in... lastly the viability of your system>
My 20g QT would be of size to hold a few Chromis, which I could feed with garlic and vitamin supplements, if that is the trick. It's an odd
situation I have, indeed.
<Mmm, not odd at all actually Thomas. By my estimation a majority of captive marine systems have resident protozoan parasite populations>
My wife likes corals, and I'm toying with the idea of a 55 gallon reef ready tank to build a coral display, many soft corals (reading that these are
easier for beginners). Think that is too small of a tank to house a Tomini as a sole occupant?
<Mmm, eventually, yes>
How you answer all these so timely is amazing. I'm assuming you have a small fridge near your computer to keep beverages handy.
<Heee, I key quickly. Cheers, BobF>
Thomas Roach

Ich Battle, nuances of truth... not the same as the real thang 05/24/08
Hi crew,
I'm having an ongoing battle with Ich in my 125 FOWLR.
<No fun>
As I acquire exceedingly expensive fish, I want to take care of it once and for all. There is about a one inch crushed coral substrate. My question is not regarding treatment, but rather, how best to do the treatment under my circumstances. I'm considering removing my live rock (only 60 lbs.) from the main tank and keeping it in a clean trash can with water, heater and power head. Removing snails, hermits and urchin to container with live rock. I would then add a few PVC pipe pieces for cover and treat the tank with Cupramine (an ionic copper formula
from Seachem).
<Nah>
I'm considering this method because I don't have a hospital tank large enough to house my current livestock (Blue Jaw Trigger, Harlequin Tusk, Cuban Hog). So my question is this: using the ionic form of copper, will it be possible to remove all but trace amounts of the copper from my system using Polyfilter and or chemi-pure after treatment making my tank safe once again for inverts?
<... won't work>
Will this be the best method of treatment in my situation? I've done so much reading on the subject, but can't quite make up my mind as to whether or not I should go through all this. Many "authorities" and some of my fishy friends claim that Ich is always present
<Incorrect... am out at Interzoo... with Preis Aquaristik, the boyz from TMC, even the OFI pitch with a DNA scanner that can/does detect 60 disease organisms... Your "authorities" are ill-informed... there are specific pathogen free systems, organisms>
and all you can do is maintain optimal conditions and reduce stress as much as possible and the fish will naturally fight it off.
<Oh, something like this IS so>
But after a couple close calls with initially healthy specimens, I question this theory. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Jason
<See my ancient, though revised pitch on "the three sets of factors that determine livestock health"... and call me in the AM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich Battle 05/24/08
Bob,
<Jason>
Thanks for the reply. I've read your "three factors" article and also my copy of your book cover to cover a couple of times. In your response you mentioned what exotic locales you are currently visiting as well as some other interesting tidbits of non-relevant info but no real solutions. Maybe I didn't do enough pre-question butt kissing that seems to be required for help?
<... cheap cynicism doesn't become you>
You guys are the most awesome source for info on the web! Ah, good times. But seriously, isn't copper the best means for killing ich? I welcome a helpful response.
<... not the best means, but almost assuredly the most common. Prevention is the best method, hands down... there are vaccines (not available in the U.S.), techniques of dipping/baths for exclusion... the matter of "balance" you mention... Quinone cpd.s can be efficacious... as detailed on... WWM... Putting copper in a main display, particularly with any source of carbonate present... is a slippery slide to oblivion. RMF>
Your Friend,
<Def. please. To me a friend is someone who turns you on to the good things they've found and reciprocally, away from the bad. You've done neither>
Jason

Help with Lion Fish!!! Ich Treatment 5/17/08
Hi!
<Hello>
I love your web site and have read quite a bit of it. I recently had a Toby Puffer pass away in a QT from ICK. We were treating him with Nitrofuracin Green Powder, but I think we just treated him a little too late.
<Unfortunately what you were treating him with has no effect on parasites, its ingredients, Nitrofurazone, Furazolidone and Methylene Blue are antibiotics, not anti-parasitic.>
The problem, is that my very active Lion Fish Paula is now showing signs. He’s not as active as usual and his appetite isn’t completely gone, but he doesn’t eat regularly.
<Not a good sign.>
There are just a few spots on him, but I want to get him in the QT, which I have washed and am preparing for him now.
<All fish in the tank need to be treated in the QT to prevent re-infection.>
I have two questions:
1.) Is it safe to wash, dry out and reuse so soon after a fish died from ICK in it? (Theo, the puffer passed away early this morning)
<As long as it has been completely washed and dried there should be no problems.>
2.) Do you think Nitrofuracin Green Powder is a suitable treatment for my Lion?
<No, an ich specific treatment is needed here, preferably quinine sulfate or formalin due to the lionfish's sensitivity to copper.>
Thanks for your help and a great site!!
Heather & Paula the Lion Fish
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich- Ack!, Marine Treatment 5/13/08
Hello Crew,
<Hello>
I hope you all are doing great!

I have an all too familiar subject to speak of on your site- Ich!
<Ok>
My tank (175 gal bowfront, FOWLR) has been running for about 2 years now, and all of a sudden we've got Ich. My Foxface, Heniochus, Purple Tang, Queen Angel (teenager), both Neon Gobbies, and all seven Green Chromis have had it for about 5 days now (Coral Beauty has thus far been resistant).
<Probably still infected, just not sympotmatic.>
I've been treating the display with 'No Ich' for a couple of days (Skimmer & Carbon Reactor are both shutdown), and although the situation hasn't gotten worse, it's not getting any better either.

My wife and I are planning to move all the fish to Quarantine tanks (not sure if one 60 gal tank is best, or three 20 gal?), add copper, and pray.

One fish guru at my LFS that I've known for years suggests my wife and I are already doing everything we can; he says in his experience (he's battled Ich for years in his reef tank) even when he's removed all the fish from his display (for 6-months at a time!) the Ich still remains in the display. I thought I read somewhere that the Ich population can't survive without a host for more than a month?
<The science says it cannot live without a host. Most likely his continued problems are due to incomplete treatments for the fish or cross-contamination with another infected tank.>
Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, we really appreciate it.
Daniel
<Welcome>
<Chris>

RE: Ich- Ack!, Marine Treatment 5/13/08
Chris,
<Hello>
We are going to go with three 20 gallon tanks to Quarantine all the fish. Just to make sure, each Q-tank needs:
Heater, Pump, Copper medication, Light
No filters since we'll be using copper, correct?
<Yes, although you could try to use an inexpensive sponge filter to try to get some biological filtration going. Also, Tangs are very sensitive to copper, I would look into using a quinine sulfate on this fish.>
Thanks again,
Daniel
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ich or not to Ich 4-2-08
Hello there,
<Hi. Yunachin here.>
I appreciate the time you guys have taken in the past to answer my questions. I always review first, before firing away an email.
<Good to know.>
I've got a 125 FOWLR, Regal Tang, Porcupine Puffer, Flame Tang, Hawkfish and Auriga butterfly. I added the Flame and Auriga about a month ago. In 2 weeks, the puffer started to show cottony specks on his fins. I would give him freshwater baths to fight it off. He would look good one day, then back to his original state.
<Were these fish quarantined before introduction into the tank?>
To further fight this, I decided to use garlic in their food (or at least boost all the guys immune systems). In addition, I spoke to my LFS and began introducing Kick-Ich to the tank about a week ago. With Kick-Ich you must turn off the skimmer and remove all carbon and filters (done). A week later as I am finishing up the treatment, the auriga and flame begin to show cottony like specs on their fins as well (nothing on body), in addition to a thin layer of 'cloudy eye' to their eyes.
I am in process of larger water change, as nitrates have gone up with skimmer off and no filters. I feel like I’m in a no-win situation.
I have dipped the parties with issue noted above, but just looking for more techniques/ideas on what to do. Is the cottony specs most likely ich? Is the cloudy eye (bacteria) from high nitrates?
<Not likely ich at all. I cannot stress enough about quarantining any new fish you get before introducing them into your system. Also you never want to add medications to your main system. A hospital tank is always the place to treat fish that are potentially ill. Adding unneeded medicines can do more harm than good as I am sure you have noticed. I would do a large water change, about 75%, turn on all of your equipment and let your tank run. Get a quarantine tanks ASAP and get the sick fish into them and treat with an antibiotic like Formalin and Furazolidone/Nitrofurazone for five days. Do not treat with copper as puffers are very sensitive to it. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/formalinart.htm; >
Let me know what other info you need.
<Do the water change on the tank and get those fish into QT. Definitely keep me posted.>
Thanks
<You’re welcome, and Good Luck –Yunachin>
Neil

Re: Marine ICH... No reading, useful data, pix, or prev. corr. FOLLOW DIR.s! 04/22/08
Hi Crew,
<Delia>
This is a follow up email with my ich problem in the tank. Last night, we saw that the blue tang is on the edge of passing. Today, we can't find him anywhere, so I think we have to find his body now. We decided to get the QT,
<... too late for quarantine... Now a treatment system>
even tough it's already too late for the blue tang but I think it is safer for the rest of the fish.
<Is the only route to go>
My ocellaris black and white clown (4 years old) have this greyish (suede) look like all over his skin. I'm not sure if this is his MARINE ICH?
<Me neither... Have you read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down to the area on Protozoan Diseases of Marine Fishes, Cryptocaryon, Identification... you're wasting time writing now, and your fishes lives>
the little one that I've purchased 2 weeks ago got this same symptoms until today, his covered with this long white thing (looks like his covered in cobweb).
<Please... think of how this reads... meaningless. Do send along a photo or two if you can>
I don't think it's the worm disease that I've found on one of your disease FAQ. My yellow tang, yesterday was getting better from his white spot, today I notice there's a tiny red dot on his left lip. PLEASE HELPPPPP! What's sufficient to quarantine this 3 fish?
<What do you mean? Quarantine systems are described on WWM, their set-up, maintenance...>
Should I give them the methylene blue and fresh water dip before placing them on the QT?
<... up to you>
What medication should I give these 3 fish on the QT?
<What three fishes? You haven't included prev. corr.... again, all treatments are archived/indexed>
Would these medication work for the kinda different symptoms that they currently have. Should I change 50% of water on my display tank? (150 litres). We're thinking of getting a custom 6 foot tank, but not at this point of time. Thank you for your help.
Best Regard,
Delia Suteja
<This is all posted... READ. Send specific questions if you are not clear... not general ones that are gone over and over already. Bob Fenner>

Ich or not to Ich And now QT RE: 4-3-08
Thanks Yunachin for your advice.
My only issue is space for a quarantine tank. Can I use a 6 gallon bucket and connect an air stone for 3-4 hours a day? Something similar? Thank you again.
<No, You would do better purchasing a 10-20 gallon tank due to the fact that you will need filtration. Read up on quarantine tanks here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm ; Most often it is better to spend the money on a small quarantine set up, than losing money on sick fish. Good Luck. --Yunachin>

Super Ich? 3/14/08
Dear Mr. Fenner,
I think I may need counseling. I will be as brief as possible. After suffering multiple losses from a case of Oodinium I heated the main system to 85 degrees and let the tank go fallow for 10 weeks. At about the eight week mark I set up my QT (bare bottom, PVC pipes, hang on filter with sponge from my Nano) and purchased a Yellow Tang and an Orange Spotted Goby. I had observed them in the LFS for about one week prior. I believe this particular dealer runs copper in their system.
<Mmm... if relying on this as a prophylactic therapeutic treatment... you must need know this... and that the concentration is constantly high enough...>
These two fish thrived from day one. I waited a full 4 weeks prior to adding them the main system which was left alone for 10 weeks. Today is day 14 since in their new home and you guessed it, to my horror, ICH!
<So... I take it this is not related to the previous incident with Amyloodinium/Velvet>
I feel as though I am always so careful. Per your advise I have read many of the articles on Ich prevention and it's life cycle. I always use freshwater + Methylene blue dip prior to adding to the QT. Is it possible that the parasite survived in cyst form in main system for so long?
<Possible? Yes... again... you're talking two different causative organisms here>
Does the type of substrate, I have about 1.5 inches of black sand, affect the survival
<Perhaps... I think the presence of organic "mulm" is likely more of a factor in such extension>
To add to my problem I now have a Pygmy Angel and a Flame Hawk fish occupying my QT. My kids told me to go to the fish store and ask them what to do. As I have learned this is not always a good idea. I told them that my best advice has come from the "guy who wrote the book." Would it be best to break the whole system down, use bleach, let it dry and entirely replace the substrate. After doing well in the hobby for about 5 years I now understand why so many get frustrated and leave the hobby. I'm not ready to do that. Thanks for listening.
Sincerely, Mark Conley.
<I do sympathize with your situation, and wish there were some "killer technology" I could avail you to give strong assurance that this situation might be resolved for sure... You are indeed faced with the two extreme choices... to dump/bleach the system, starting over... Or continue some means of treating the present... A formalin-based dip will kill the resident trophonts... I would review the general articles on both these scourges: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
(and soon), and make this decision... through knowledge and action. Bob Fenner>

Yet another case of crypt... and RMF's ongoing crap attempts at sarcasm 3/9/08
Hey crew!
<Howzit?>
I'd really like to field a question to you guys.
<Well, okay!>
From what I gather on the site, copper or comparable alternatives are best bets in a hospital tank treating crypt, along with hyposaline conditions (<1.010) if the fish can handle it for 6-8 weeks while the main tank goes fallow.
<Mmm, depends... on what means by "best", the species involved, their apparent health otherwise...>
I've been going in circles with the LFS which have been insisting that upgrading to a much larger UV filter and supplementing food with garlic along with vitamin C will cure crypt.
<Mmm, will not... I'll bet you any sum in the universe>
They've made claims that they've cured massive outbreaks of crypt in their 2400 gallon show tank this way.
<Mmm, define "cured">
In a lack of judgment I listened. You've probably already guessed it didn't work.
<What a shock! Okay... am terrible at cheap drama>
While I was doing this (since I had my doubts from the beginning) I've put together a quarantine tank and the only thing left to do is move the fish.
Our current setup is a 180gal FOWLR (since our xenia died within minutes of adding a teaspoon of concentrated garlic...)
<Yummy on pizza, some soups... and not too bad for breath... as long as all are consuming... Oh, back to your story>
We have a 6" powder blue tang, 6" Koran angel, 2.5" flame angel, two 4" yellow head sleeper gobies, very large tentacle anemone, 1.5" black/white false percula clown, couple cleaner shrimp, 1" yellowtail damsel, 1" striped damsel, and a handful of turbo snails/stars/etc. Tank is approximately 4-5 months old, our first attempt at saltwater... and either the powder blue tang or the Koran introduced the ich (last two fish added)
<Easily done... not quarantined...>
We're running wet/dry with a 40gal sump, couple 1200gph return pumps, needle wheel skimmer, and 50 watts of UV on one side of the return, along with 200 watts of HOT5 and 400 watts of PC.
I've also put together a 56gal column hospital tank with identical water parameters (1.022 salinity, 82F temp, 8.4PH...) with a canister filter (no carbon), small UV filter, bare bottom with PVC pipe for fish hiding decor to use as the quarantine tank.
I've got cold feet. If at all possible I do not want to put the fish through the stress of being moved. They are all eating fine and active, although the Koran seems to scratch himself on the aragonite and the rest of the fish seem to fling their bodies against the water jetting into the tank, like they are trying to knock something off of them. Is there absolutely anything I can do to deal with the ich without putting the fish through the move between tanks?
<Sure... seek to strike a "balance" of sort; like the 2,400 gallon tank folks... See WWM re Parasitic Marine Tanks...>
This just feels like too many fish to quarantine in such a small tank and I've got a gut feeling they wont all survive the juggling.
Thanks in advance for all of your help and insight... because of this site and Bob's book I've had exceptional fortune keeping fish alive, and I want to do everything in my power to "right" the situation I've caused through poor quarantine practices.
David
<Read on!: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and as much of the linked files above as you can stomach, till you understand your options, the logic/rationale, even (gasp!) science behind your situation. Bob Fenner>

Crypt 03/06/2008
Hello Eric,
<<Good Evening Don, Andrew here>>
Hope all is well with you/WWM crew.
<<All doing very well thank you>>
I am one of those guys that learn like a mule. So I bought a Powder Blue Tang and I did the freshwater bath
for 6 ½. minutes and quarantined for about 2 ½ weeks <>. I know crypt was either on him or in the tank still. Its not bad. He gets about 3 - 5 spots daily. All the other fish are showing no out right signs of infection. I have the 75 gallon up and running it was cycled already even though I know if/when I have to use copper (bought a couple hundred tests for testing multiple times daily) I'll lose all bacteria. Got that covered to by installing a RO/DI unit for massive water changes. Question is at what point would you take out the fish put in QT and go fallow for 6 weeks?
<<The infected fish should be held in quarantine and run hypo salinity for. This process will last about 6 weeks. The display should be left to fallow through-out this period. If not left to go fallow, cysts that could of fallen off the infected fish and attached to rock and sand can simply just re-infect another or same fish. BY going fallow, it removes the much needed hosts from the tank for the ich to attach too. Read more here and the linked articles and FAQ's>>
<<http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm>>
<<http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm>>
Bob this note is to you personally, I don't know you but I really mean this that without this web site and crew I would have never learned all the
information you wrote. I go on forums and it is a joke what they have to say so a big thanks.
<<Bob will see these kind words, and am sure will pass on thanks for your kind comments>>
Don V.
<<Thanks for the questions, hope this helps. A Nixon>>

Re: Crypt 03/07/2008
Sorry for the mix up. I must have asked the question wrong.
<<its fine, we'll try again..>>
At what point would you go fallow because I have read a ton of FAQ's say that if Crypt is seen here and there on maybe say 1 fish and not all WWM had responded to just keep an eye on the tank and add biological cleaners. What I was wondering/asking when do I need to go fallow or I might be not understanding the answer and your telling me as soon as you see the outright tell tale sign of salt like dots go fallow right away no matter what.
<<Realistically, as soon as Ich is seen in the aquarium, fish should be removed to quarantine and allow the display to go fallow. Personally, i would not just monitor them/ leave them in the display. Lots of opinions on the treatment / control of Ich.>>
I completely understand the life cycle of the parasite and I do know if a heater would quit or electric go out or undue stress Crypt will go completely out of control. Sorry again.
Don V.
<<Hope that clears the query up for you Don. Thanks. A Nixon>>

Cleaners not consuming Crypt 3/5/08
Bob Quick question for you. Will cleaner shrimp and cleaner gobies, like say the skunks and Neons, eat the cyst shelled stage of ich that would be laying on the sand and live rock? Will they eat the other two stages also? Thanks again for your time, Todd
<Mmm, not the resting stage really, or should I state, not reliably... the other stages can't be seen...

Qt tank and Ick, lots of reading 3/2/08
Hello, I Have removed all My fish from a 95 Gallon Reef tank because of a Ick Breakout and Placed them into a 55 Gallon Qt
<Not quarantine, now treatment>
Tank I have a Hippo tang a yellow Tang and Vermillion Tang and a Dragon Wrasse and Two Pink Skunks and 2 Blue small Damsels ... What is the best Medicine or Remedy that is safe
<None are safe and effective... all have elements of risk>
for all fish to cure the ick in a QT Tank I have Bought the copper treatment
<There's more than one>
and test kit but have kept it about 0.15 0.20 or lower
<Lower is of no use>
as I was afraid of hurting the fish is there a better way and safer way my one skunk has Popeye also now and not eating Is this from the Copper ..
<Might be, indirectly>
I plan on a 25 % water change today and have been reading about the Epsom Salt treatment and thought I would go that way for the Popeye but still don't want to put the fish back into the reef tank till I know the ick is Gone .. They have been in the Qt tank For 7 Days Now and have a long way to go before I put them back into the Reef tank I also checked all the other standard tests and the check out ...
Thanks
JIM
<A bunch of reading for you: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scan down to the sections on Crypt... Bob Fenner>

Ich...oh me oh my, more reading 3/2/08
Hello Folks,
<Chris>
First off, thanks for the great site. You guys provide a wealth of information, that I should really listen to more often. So, my tank is currently being burned with a nasty case of ich. I've lost my two clowns already, and i have two mollies that are showing a few white spots, but otherwise appear to be ok. (Eating, no heaving breathing, no scratching/twitching). The last fish in the tank is a yellow-tail blue damsel who is showing no white spots and appears to be healthy.
Other inhabitants in the tank are a skunk cleaner, an emerald crab, and 3 Nassarius snails. The tank is 55G with SG = 1.023,
<I'd raise this... see WWM re>
Nitrite = 0,
Ph = 8.1, Ammonia = 0, and Nitrate is < 10ppm. I have read that it's possibly for ich to obtain a "happy balance" with a tank that isn't highly stocked like mine.
<Mmm, yes>
That is to say, that the fish will appear healthy, but the ich will never really go away. So, what to do? I (now) have a small 10G hospital tank set up. Lets say it's possible to get those 3 fish out of the main tank and in to the 10g quarantine.
How long would I have to wait to guarantee that the ich would be gone from the display?
<See WWM re: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Scroll down to the section on Crypt>
Is it possible for the inverts in my tank to keep it alive?
<No>
Also, I haven't been using any copper medication on the display tank because I heard that it will seep into the rock and basically make it impossible to keep inverts. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
<Read>
Also, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to be using that QT from now on. But, I guess you don't really believe prevention is the best medicine until you make a mistake like this.
Thanks guys,
Chris
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner>

Marine ich woes -02/27/08
I have a problem with ich in my reef tank. I have researched extensively and asked my LFS many questions and have gotten so much conflicting advice.
The guys at our LFS seem very knowledgeable and we have heard great things about them from the aquatic community around us. But most of their advice goes against a lot of what you guys recommend. Here is the problem.
<Differences of opinion exist, I'm sure.>
We have a 180 gallon tank with a regal tang, Sailfin, 2 Perculas, harlequin clownlips, yellow tang, unicorn tang, 2 skunk shrimp, 1 coral banded shrimp, 2 star fish, and various turbo snails and red hermit crabs. We also have 5 different kinds of coral and 1 anemone. All of which we didn't quarantine or fresh water dip at the advice of the LFS.
<Yikes! Intelligent people might disagree about the freshwater dipping, but you should certainly quarantine! I don't understand why anyone would recommend against it!>
Recently we added a show size powder blue tang. Initially he was very healthy. After several days he developed ich. We contacted "our guy" at the LFS and he said that wait it out and everything would be fine.
<Oy, this was NOT good advice.>
He got worse, we insisted that he come out to our store to check on him. He brought some reef safe chemicals and said it would all be okay. Well, Kahuna (big tang) died this morning and we are all very distraught.
<I'm sorry.>
We feel very irresponsible and mislead by the LFS.
<Indeed, you should have removed the sick fish and treated him/her with hyposalinity.>
All the other fish seem to be doing okay. Our Sailfin had what looked to be the worst break out but he never stopped eating or being active.
<lucky>
My question. What now? We don't feel comfortable listening to our LFS and I have found sooo much contradicting info about chemical treatments, natural treatments, hypo salinity, raising the temp in the tank and my head is spinning.
<Well, one thing is for sure, you should always quarantine new fish! Secondly, even if you didn't quarantine initially, you certainly should after a fish falls ill/infected. Hyposalinity is one way to treat it without meds. Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hyposalandcrypt.htm
As for the medications, some work, some don't (and sometimes some work and sometimes they don't). In any case, it doesn't hurt to try any of them IF you quarantine the sick fish. If the sick fish is quarantined, you can use meds that might not be safe for marine inverts. For more on ich treatment, please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm>
We would appreciate any help/advice you can give us.
<Always get a second opinion (and read as much as you can). :-)>
Thanks
<Best,
Sara M.>

Re: marine ich woes -02/27/08
Thanks for your advice. Here is where we stand now. All fish are still eating except the unicorn. We finally caught him and put him in our home
tank that has two skunk shrimp and 2 large hermit crabs. The salinity is lower at home.
<How low? If you want to treat ich with hyposalinity, you have to bring the salinity much lower than is safe for marine inverts like shrimp and crabs. That's why the fish to be treated has to be quarantined. Please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hyposalandcrypt.htm>
We also have some garlic power liquid to soak in their food. Our LFS brought us Melafix and Pimafix to treat the water in our show tank. Is there anything else we could/should be doing?
<It's hard to say without knowing the actual state of your fish. If the ich outbreak is bad, you might consider setting up a quarantine tank and treating them all with hyposalinity. Read about the life cycle of the ich parasite and how it spends some stages of its life in the sand bed and in the water column. This is the reason people will remove all the fish from the tank with the sandbed/substrate to starve the parasites to death. Again, please see here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm>
Thanks so much for all your help.
<De nada and good luck,
Sara M.>

Ich-fest 2008, Marine Treatment Options, 2/21/08
Hello again WWM Crew!
<Hello>
Thanks for all of your help on past issues. I hope I am not asking too many questions, as I try and read everything here at WWM I can, and then ask a question if I am still confused.
<No worries.>
I wanted to ask your opinion on an ich outbreak.
<Ok>
After a long but valuable waiting/cycling period, I had just completed (finally) moving my livestock over to my new 125 g (with ls/lr) tank about a week ago. Everyone was doing fine, loving life, and the new space. Water parameters are, and have been daily for the past week : ph 8.3, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates reading between 5-10, salinity 1.024 and water temp at 78 degrees.
<Good>
Having just moved the livestock over a week ago, obviously I am watching them closer than usual and as of 10:30 last night, not one had any (visible) signs of ich.
This morning, at 7am, this is what I found:
Flame Angel (ich spots visible)
Black Back Butterfly (ich spots visible)
Blue Hippo Tang (ich spots visible)
Black Perc. Clown (ich spots visible)
Tomato Clown (ich spots visible)
Gold/Maroon Clown - NO visible signs of ich
Banggai Cardinal - NO visible signs of ich
Pajama Cardinal - NO visible signs of ich
3 Stripe Damsel - NO visible signs of ich
<Not good.>
I also have 3 peppermint shrimp, 1 chocolate chip and 1 red knobbed stars, and about 15 or so various hermit crabs (blue legged, red legged, and 1 neon blue striped)
I wanted to mention that there are no quarrels between the fish. The clowns are all tanks raised, has been introduced simultaneously to the old tank a while back, and have always gotten along great, and no one else seems to be bothered by anyone.

I've been watching the behavior in the new tank to see if anyone was being aggressive, and it does not appear to be an issue (at least all of the time that I am watching).
<Good>
My question is, being that my main tank is now infested, how should I go about treatment?
<Remove all fish and treat, let the main tank run fallow for 6 to 8 weeks, details listed on WWM.>
I'm thinking it would be best to treat all of the fish(except the inverts), since even the ones that do not show outward signs of ich have still been exposed to it.
<Yes>
I do have the old tank running still (just in case), but need to take it down in a week or so due to space limitations.
<Will need to find some way to keep the fish out of the main tank for up to 8 weeks.>
I still have the old (crushed coral) substrate in there, but the LR has all been moved over.
<The CC will be a problem since it will react with most medications making it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels. I would plan on removing it if you are going to use this tank.>
The water numbers for this old tank, as of today, are almost the same as listed above for the new tank. ( ph 8.3, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates reading between 5-10, salinity 1.024 and water temp at 78.4 degrees
<Good>
I have read through the great information here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the associated links, and seem to now have a basic plan of attack.
I was planning on moving all of the inverts to the old tank and treating the main tank. I was going to raise the temp of the main tank from 78 to 83-84, but wondered if a schedule of 1 degree increase every 24 hours was too much too fast?
<Is ok, but I would not use the main tank, if so all LR and substrate will need to be removed. Looking for just glass, water, some filter media and PVC for hiding spots.>
Also, I was going to take the salinity from 1.024 down to 1.018 and wondered what a schedule of decrease should be?
<Would not bother, not low enough to help treat the parasite.>
Finally, medication. Given the mixture of fish I have listed above, which medication should I use?
<With the tang and clowns I would stay away from copper, probably go with formalin dips along with hyposalinity (1.009). Otherwise perhaps a Quinine.>
I am really timid about using toxic medications(as I have no experience with such), but if I need to I need to.
<Will need to treat the fish (outside of the main tank) in some manner to kill the Crypt.>
What I'd really like to know is how you (if this was your tank) would attack this outbreak?
<Remove all fish from the main tank, and do formalin dips along with hyposalinity (1.009) while allowing the main tank to run fallow.>
Thank you again for the wonderful site, the great information, and your time.
Mike P.
<Good luck.>
<Chris>

Saltwater disease??? Reading, knowledge, intelligence, wit... 2/14/08
all hail BOB,
<Yikes... all this while I thought/figured the U.S. was turning to the inevitable aristocracy... Maybe there's room for some sort of new religiousosity as well?>
I have inverts.... anything you swear by to get rid of the ich?
<Uhh... reading...>
again my tank is 550 plus the sump... with 6-700 ish pounds of live rock its hard... no wait... I DON'T want to chase down the fish...
<Too big a system for that... have to drain...>
plus the stress on them would make matters worse...
<Better than dying?>
I have so many crabs and critters that I don't want to kill, so the regular treatments don't fit my plan... any ideas? this is getting quite expensive to treat.
Thanks a zillion,
Jim
<Your options are spelled out, the rationale presented... here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Bob Fenner>

Dear WWM crew.
I have a clownfish that is not looking so good. would the anemone shock the parasites off of the fish. thanks.
<Eddie,
Please list the following information:
Tank Size.
All inhabitants.
Tank Parameters: Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate, PH, Salinity, Calcium
Recent changes to the tank you have made.
Water change schedule.
How long the clownfish has been sick.
Picture of him if applicable.
Thanks--Yunachin>

Quitting salt, water all fish dying, Need more information... Crypt, no reading 2/13/07
Dear WWMCrew, I have a 36 gallon bow front saltwater. All of my water parameters are fine,
<Fine is relative, please give exact numbers>
the salinity is 1.020-1.021.
<A little low.><<A lot. RMF>>
Please help me because I am so close to quitting this hobby. I have had quite a lot of fish because they all keep dying. My coral beauty dies my two clownfish died now my new clownfish has died and my two tangs and my threadfin and my wrasse and that's all from what I have remembered.
<That seems like way too many large fish in a 36 gallon, especially the tangs and butterfly which need much larger tanks. A 36 should have 3 to 4 small fish max, especially if you are new to the hobby.>
They all have white spot.
<Quite curable, see here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm.>
Mainly it is all the fish from the stores.
<Do you have another source for livestock than the store?>
The rest are fine. please help. thanks
<Need more information to be able to help. What is your current stocking, what are you water parameters, have you treated the Cryptocaryon irritans (Ich)?>
<Chris>

Re: Quitting salt, water all fish dying... still not reading... 2/13/08
Dear WWM crew, I emailed you before about quitting the saltwater hobby. All of my fish have been dying and my clownfish is sick. Is there a way to cure it without quarantining him.
<Not really, your options should be laid out on the ich pages from before and here http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .>
I have two cleaner shrimp,
<Of minor help here.>
1 purple fire goby, two clownfish and an anemone.
<The anemone does not really belong in this tank, they are very fragile and really only appropriate for large, established tank. Fresh water dips may provide some temporary relief but will not be a cure.>
Will the anemone shock the parasites off the fish.
<No>
The water parameters are fine and it is a 36 gallon tank. He has been sick for two days now. thanks
<Outside of treatment in a hospital tank your options are limited to pretty much maintaining good water quality and feeding nutritious foods while hoping the fish's immune system and combat the parasites.>
<Chris>

Re: Quitting salt, water all fish dying... READ, get some rest and call me in the AM... 2/13/08
Dear WWM crew, I have emailed you a lot because of all my fish dying. My ph is a 8.0 to 8.4
<A big range, is it changing this much intraday?>
and my nitrites are 0 and my nitrates are 15 and every thing else is great.
<Ammonia?>
Will an anemone kill the parasites on my clownfish. thanks.
<No>
<Chris>

Help! What Went Wrong?... Crypt, info., dipping, reading – 02/07/08
Hi crew, I am writing to you right now as a very worried fish keeper. I have just been given a royal scare by my blue spot puffer fish.
<... a male Ostracion meleagris?>
My tank has recently been infected by the dreaded ich parasite and I am in the process of procuring all the relevant items I need to quarantine my 6 fish. The carrier of the disease (my new yellow tang) has been quarantined for one week now, and I was living in hope that I had noticed the symptoms and moved the problem fish early enough to avoid an outbreak of ich.
<Mmm, no. By the time symptoms are discovered, this protozoan has already gone into other stages... leaving the host, reproducing...>
Much to my chagrin I noticed the telltale white spots on my puffer fish this morning. The plan was to quarantine
<Mmm, let's skip this term... too late... now it's treatment...>
my puffer and my blenny together so I could treat them both with hyposalinity (I didn't want to subject these two to harmful chemicals such as copper etc).
<... Hyposalinity rarely works... you have not read on WWM re...>
Four of the fish (perc clown, yellow wrasse, strawberry basslet, and Tailspot blenny) seem to be ok with only the basslet showing any white spots, although I have seen the blenny flashing against the live rock.
<The system is infested, all fishes need to be removed, treated...>
However, tonight the puffer seemed to be in much discomfort with all of his fins infested and most of the body covered in white spots. The fish was continuously scraping against the rocks and substrate and was 'sitting' on the skimmer intake and turning a black colour. Feeling very sorry for the poor guy I decided to give him a freshwater dip and relocate him to a 10 litre container with freshly mixed saltwater by himself.
<The dip's a good idea, the tiny volume, not>
I carefully buffered some RO water to 8.2 pH and added boiled RO water to get the temp to exactly 79F (temp of the main tank). I then arranged the 10 litre Rubbermaid with fresh saltwater at 79F nearby and got started.
This was my first attempt at a freshwater dip but I have been reading about them for some days now in preparation of the inevitable quarantine of all my fish. I turned the lights off in the main tank and waited a few minutes for the puffer to settle down in his usual corner. I caught him with the net after a little chasing and put him into the freshwater. He started swimming straight away and circled the small bucket several times before staying still and turning black for a little while. He then started swimming around again and I waited for total of 8 minutes before netting him again. I thought that the procedure was going pretty well so far. When I caught the puffer and put him in the newly prepared saltwater (same pH, specific gravity, temp of the main tank) he sort of freaked out and started darting back and forth for about 20 seconds then sank to the bottom of the container upside down, breathing very rapidly!! I sort of freaked out myself and the
only thing I could think to do under the circumstances was to catch him in the net and put him back in the main tank which then rendered my freshwater dip pointless. He swam back and forth and opened his mouth wide which was I found unusual then lay down on the substrate where he usually sleeps and has remained there for the past hour breathing very heavily. His eyes are clear and responsive but I'm so scared I've done the little guy more harm than good. Can you tell me what has happened or what I've done wrong?
<Likely "just" stress here... perhaps low DO in the dip, new tiny system...>
I did this thinking it was best for one of my favourite fish and now I feel worse than watching him scratch himself silly with the ich. The puffer is only an inch and a half long
<What species is this?>
so I thought a 10 litre tank would be fine for that size of fish. He hasn't moved for hours and I'm afraid he'll be dead or dying by the morning. Ugh what a bad feeling. I wish someone would hurry up and invent a miracle cure for this cursed parasite.
<As far as I'm aware there is no such thing currently. There are effective vaccines, but not sold in the U.S... and the ding dang trade self-enforce simple exclusionary practices to greatly diminish the import and spread of these contagions...>
Please let me know if I've done something fundamentally wrong because I'm not sure I want to carry out any more freshwater dips whilst moving them to the hospital tanks.
M Wilson
<I need to know the species you're dealing with here... and you need to read more re the etiology. Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... You have a hard decision, perhaps a few to make... To try to strike a balance and keep an infested system going as is (a tenuous proposition), or to remove, treat all your fish livestock, leave the system fallow... Bob Fenner>

Re: Help! What Went Wrong?... Crypt, info., dipping, reading 2/11/08
Hi Crew,
<Mr. Wilson>
Sorry for the confusion regarding my original email below, Bob. My puffer is a Canthigaster bennetti or Bennett's Toby. My LFS sold him to me as a 'blue spotted puffer'.
<Okay>
Following the seemingly successful freshwater dip my fish got over stressed when I attempted to put him in a hospital tank (a 10 litre tank, bearing in mind the fish is about 1.5 inches long). My only option was to put the puffer back into the main tank where he seemed to recover gradually. In the morning he was eating again and did not seem to be as stressed with the ich as the day before. I am aware I will need to treat all fish now and let the tank run fallow.
<Ah, good>
I note your thoughts on hyposalinity but what course of treatment would you then recommend for scaleless fish?
<Posted>
I am very wary of treating them with copper etc as they are particularly sensitive to it.
<Yes... there are other techniques, methods, materials...>
I am planning to let the tank run fallow for 2 months and I also plan to remove all the substrate and discard it. I will then wait 8 weeks and replace with more live sand and let it run for a couple of more weeks and add the fish back to the main tank. I hope to treat with hyposalinity and large water changes to eradicate the parasite. I hope I will be able to treat without copper / carcinogens.
Regards
M Wilson
<We'll see... In the meanwhile, please set aside some time to peruse WWM re marine parasitic disease/s, their treatment... Here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Bob Fenner>

Ich resisting treatments, hypo. failure, quinine poss. 2/6/08
Hi and thanks in advance for your help! I will do my best to have proper grammar but I m French so excuse my errors.
<No worries. We make especial exception for non-native speakers, writers>
I have a problem with marine ich that I can’t seem to be able to resolve, I have been reading a lot on your site and many others and I'm now at the end of my resources and don’t know what to do next. I will give you a description of my system and a step by step of what have been done to help resolve the issue.
Tank is 78 gallons 4feet long and for filtration I have a basement sump 54 gallons with refugium filled with a deep sand bed and Chaeto, just over the sump there is a 25gal frag tank with a 2” sand bed and a few live rocks, in sump protein skimmer and 70 lbs of live rocks in the tank. We want to add a 220 gallons linked to the same system but will not do so until this ich issue is resolved permanently. I only have about 4 more months because these fish grow fast.
We started the tank in august 2007 and by the end of September we introduced 3 fish ( a pink tail trigger 3.5”, Picasso trigger 2”, hippo tang 3” that all get along great) since we wanted to introduce the 3 fish at once for territory issues we broke our fundamental rule of 6 weeks quarantine period.. big mistake…
<Oui>
within the first week ich started and quickly became out of control.. I read a lot about the parasite in question and decided to go with hypo salinity treatment of the display tank
<This rarely works>
so we removed the live rocks and moved them to the frag tank and turned off the pump and valves for the sump we have a shotcrete str