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SW... crypt, stkg... (aquarist needs to start reading) -06/19/08 hello My name is Katrina I have had my saltwater tank for a year now. It was set up in a 10 gallon to start off then a 30 gallon I used the old filter, mollies and a damsel to cycle the tanks <Bad idea> now I am into a 75 gallon. I do my water changes every 3rd month and I change my filters also ph is at 8.0 no nitrates or nitrites. I have a blue tang ,yellow tang, 2 Ocellaris clowns 2 damsels, engineer goby ,and my mandarin goby. <All in a 75g? geez> Ich has broke out in my tank I have a QT tank that is 30 gallon and I am treating it with Copper everyone seems fine but my mandarin he is very sluggish his eyes are sinking into his head and his eyes are clouded <Likely starving to death, perhaps among other problems.> What can I do for him he wont eat just anything he is very picky. <Um, yeah... did you bother to research this fish before you bought it? Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mandarins.htm> I thought about giving him a swim in the copper tank then putting him back in the big tank so he can eat but I am afraid of ich breaking out on him only. <Unlikely... these are slimy fish, relatively resistant to external parasites. Again, lack of diligence/research will often kill your animals faster than anything else.> he will be the only fish in the infested tank. I am at a loss what to do for him. <About the only way to *try* and save him now might be to feed him live copepods you can buy from Adelaide Rhodes, http://www.oceanpods.com/ However, good luck trying to target feed him. It's likely the other fish will get to the pods first unless you isolate him. And it might already be too late.> Please help I am running out of time. Thank you Katrina <Best, Sara M.>
2nd time with ich, Marine treatment 6/4/08 Dear WWM crew, <Hello> Thank you so much for all your helpful advice. <Welcome> Two days ago I did a major cleanup of my gravel (vacuumed + 30% water change) in my 75 gal. tank and yesterday I noticed white spots on my yellow tang. : ( Let me back track a little. About 4 months ago I bought a vermicular angel fish and put him in my tank... yes... 2 days later he had ich. <A lesson on QTing.> Being new to this hobby (now it's been about 6 mths) I went running to my LFS, they quickly sold me a product Kent XP because it was "reef safe" and I had some live rock + sand and some shrimps, snails and hermit crabs. <Are you referring to Kent RXP? If I remember correctly this is one of those pepper based products, which is not going to help your situation.> I went home to use it but my angel died and my yellow tang now had some spots. I also have 5 blue/green chromis, 2 cardinals, one molly, one engineer goby and 1 oc clown. Sooo I used the product for 14 days, followed the instructions and to my surprise the ich was gone. Or so I thought... <Doubtful...> Which brings me to today. Since then I found your web site, wow. I love it. I am in the middle of transitioning my FOWLR to a reef tank, and last week a bought 20 lbs of live rock, which came from the display tank of the LFS, so I thought it would be safe to put it in my tank. Then my yellow tang got ich. What do you think happened? 1- The live rock had ich so it was re-introduced? <Reintroduced? No, was most likely still there, which is not to say the LR did not bring in reinforcement.> 2- The ich was in the tank all along and the cleaning of the sand stressed the yellow tang so he succumbed to the parasite? <Cleaning and stress probably had little to do with it, the fish was most likely already well infected, perhaps the cleaning pushed it over the edge, but I would guess the fish was never ich free.> Well, after the first incidence of ich, I bought a 10 gal. tank for QT. I've had it running for 2 mths now. When I saw the yellow tang, I took him out and put him in the QT. I was about to put him through hyposalinity when I read Bob's comments on hyposalinity and how it was not proven 100% effective. <I kind of disagree with Bob a little bit on technicalities here, I do believe hypo can work if done very strictly, however I don't think it is realistic for the average hobbyist to maintain SG with the necessary accuracy to work in practice, so it is not a route I would generally recommend.> Soooo, what shall I do? According to him, I should use copper. <Copper is pretty tough on tang and clowns, and the goby may have trouble too, although it will work without question as long as it is maintained at therapeutic levels. The quinine family of drugs, or formalin will work also, but with their own drawbacks and issues. Take a look over WetWeb and see what you feel most comfortable with. Try starting here and WetWeb FAQs http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php > So now the question is, should I treat all my fish with copper in the QT tank and let the DT remain fishless for 4 weeks? <4 weeks is the bare minimum, does not leave a lot of 'wiggle' room, I would count on double that time.> Are there too many fish for this 10 gal. tank? <Assuming you still have all 10 fish, then yes by far. 29G tank are still fairly cheap and small, if you could go this route I think you have a much better chance at success.> Also, my engineer goby is about 5 inches long and is always buried under the sand, will he be OK in this tank with a bare bottom? <Lots of PVP pipes here should help.> Please advice, I am going to my LFS and buy the copper so I can start today. <I suggest taking a day to come up with a plan, your chances of success will increase greatly.> Thank you once again for all your help. This is the 2nd time I get ich and I don't want this to happen once I get all my corals + other inverts in the DT. So I want to do things the right way. Thank you, Sincerely Erika <Read over the articles and FAQs, come up with a plan that you feel comfortable and able to execute, and proceed. Be prepared for large daily water changes, have aquarium "tool" dedicated to the QT only, and pick up some Bio-Spira if you can find it to give the bio-filter a jumpstart. Good luck.> <Chris> Crypt, Marine Treatment 6/4/08 Hi All! <Hello> I was hoping I would never have to write this email, but it seems that I have a crypt episode in my 75 gallon reef. My tank is 18 months old, and I found your site while it was cycling, so I was educated about and have employed quarantine procedures since my first fish. Alas, I moved my tank last month, and now I have Crypt. I am assuming that I stirred something up in the sandbed when moving the tank, and the fish may have had an outbreak a couple weeks ago, but I attributed it to everything being "silty" from the move. <Uh oh.> I have set up my hospital tank (29 gallon) but I fear I now the 29 gallon will be very crowded. I also have my 10 gallon QT tank that I can set up. After hours of reading, I am doubtful that my selection of fishes can tolerate copper (which I have ready, with a test kit). <Copper is very effective, so having 2 tanks can be useful here, copper for those that handle it well, and another treatment in the other tank for those that do not.> The fish showing signs are: Magenta Pseudochromis Neon Goby and my pair of False Perculas Other fish are: (not showing signs) Lyretail Anthias 6 Blue-Green Chromis and my Scooter Blenny <I would treat all as those they are infect, as they most likely are, just not symptomatic.> I believe that my Anthias is getting the spots too, but he takes advantage of the Cleaner Shrimp every morning and evening, so he never has spots for long. <Studies of shrimp guts do not indicate they feed on the parasite, at least not directly, more likely picking at the wound around the infection site, but does seem to help control the infection.> I am going to fallow the display 5-6 weeks, and I was going to treat everyone with copper in the hospital tank, but after reading, I have found that most of my livestock is sensitive to copper (I think I read- all but the Pseudochromis are)! So should I put him in the 10 gallon and treat only him with copper, and the rest in the 29 with hyposalinity? <I would probably go with a uniform treatment here, too much work, chance of confusion for just treating a single fish. Check out here for details on several treatment options and see what you are most comfortable with http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .> My other thought was to put the Blenny in the 10 gallon with an established HOB refugium I have and monitor him for crypt, but not treat yet. The Blenny eats frozen Mysis, but I don't want him totally stressed but not being able to graze after plunking him on a bare bottom tank with PVC pipes. While leaving the rest in the 29 with hyposalinity. <Possible, the dragonet is sort of a wild card here, fairly ich resistant so it is possible it is not at least a "carrier". Unfortunately to me there is no right or wrong answer here, both treatment and non-treatment carry their own risks.> Thoughts, ideas, opinions? This is my first time dealing with this, and it seems there are so many options out there. Thanks a bunch!! -Esther <As I was answering another similar query to this a few minutes ago I was thinking how easy it is to treat for Crypt if only the fish could handle it. Unfortunately that is where your issue is in my eyes, a question of balance between an effective cure and poisoning your livestock. Now if you are feeling especially motivated, and can get another 29 cheap the transfer method could work nicely for you, especially with the dragonets. See here for some details on that method http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm . Otherwise consider which other treatment methods suit you best.> <Chris>
Ich Battle, nuances of truth... not the same as the real thang 05/24/08 Hi crew, I'm having an ongoing battle with Ich in my 125 FOWLR. <No fun> As I acquire exceedingly expensive fish, I want to take care of it once and for all. There is about a one inch crushed coral substrate. My question is not regarding treatment, but rather, how best to do the treatment under my circumstances. I'm considering removing my live rock (only 60 lbs.) from the main tank and keeping it in a clean trash can with water, heater and power head. Removing snails, hermits and urchin to container with live rock. I would then add a few PVC pipe pieces for cover and treat the tank with Cupramine (an ionic copper formula from Seachem). <Nah> I'm considering this method because I don't have a hospital tank large enough to house my current livestock (Blue Jaw Trigger, Harlequin Tusk, Cuban Hog). So my question is this: using the ionic form of copper, will it be possible to remove all but trace amounts of the copper from my system using Polyfilter and or chemi-pure after treatment making my tank safe once again for inverts? <... won't work> Will this be the best method of treatment in my situation? I've done so much reading on the subject, but can't quite make up my mind as to whether or not I should go through all this. Many "authorities" and some of my fishy friends claim that Ich is always present <Incorrect... am out at Interzoo... with Preis Aquaristik, the boyz from TMC, even the OFI pitch with a DNA scanner that can/does detect 60 disease organisms... Your "authorities" are ill-informed... there are specific pathogen free systems, organisms> and all you can do is maintain optimal conditions and reduce stress as much as possible and the fish will naturally fight it off. <Oh, something like this IS so> But after a couple close calls with initially healthy specimens, I question this theory. Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jason <See my ancient, though revised pitch on "the three sets of factors that determine livestock health"... and call me in the AM. Bob Fenner> Re: Ich Battle 05/24/08 Bob, <Jason> Thanks for the reply. I've read your "three factors" article and also my copy of your book cover to cover a couple of times. In your response you mentioned what exotic locales you are currently visiting as well as some other interesting tidbits of non-relevant info but no real solutions. Maybe I didn't do enough pre-question butt kissing that seems to be required for help? <... cheap cynicism doesn't become you> You guys are the most awesome source for info on the web! Ah, good times. But seriously, isn't copper the best means for killing ich? I welcome a helpful response. <... not the best means, but almost assuredly the most common. Prevention is the best method, hands down... there are vaccines (not available in the U.S.), techniques of dipping/baths for exclusion... the matter of "balance" you mention... Quinone cpd.s can be efficacious... as detailed on... WWM... Putting copper in a main display, particularly with any source of carbonate present... is a slippery slide to oblivion. RMF> Your Friend, <Def. please. To me a friend is someone who turns you on to the good things they've found and reciprocally, away from the bad. You've done neither> Jason Help with Lion Fish!!! Ich Treatment 5/17/08 Hi! <Hello> I love your web site and have read quite a bit of it. I recently had a Toby Puffer pass away in a QT from ICK. We were treating him with Nitrofuracin Green Powder, but I think we just treated him a little too late. <Unfortunately what you were treating him with has no effect on parasites, its ingredients, Nitrofurazone, Furazolidone and Methylene Blue are antibiotics, not anti-parasitic.> The problem, is that my very active Lion Fish Paula is now showing signs. He's not as active as usual and his appetite isn't completely gone, but he doesn't eat regularly. <Not a good sign.> There are just a few spots on him, but I want to get him in the QT, which I have washed and am preparing for him now. <All fish in the tank need to be treated in the QT to prevent re-infection.> I have two questions: 1.) Is it safe to wash, dry out and reuse so soon after a fish died from ICK in it? (Theo, the puffer passed away early this morning) <As long as it has been completely washed and dried there should be no problems.> 2.) Do you think Nitrofuracin Green Powder is a suitable treatment for my Lion? <No, an ich specific treatment is needed here, preferably quinine sulfate or formalin due to the lionfish's sensitivity to copper.> Thanks for your help and a great site!! Heather & Paula the Lion Fish <Welcome> <Chris> Ich- Ack!, Marine Treatment 5/13/08 Hello Crew, <Hello> I hope you all are doing great! <I am, and to you too.> I have an all too familiar subject to speak of on your site- Ich! <Ok> My tank (175 gal bowfront, FOWLR) has been running for about 2 years now, and all of a sudden we've got Ich. My Foxface, Heniochus, Purple Tang, Queen Angel (teenager), both Neon Gobbies, and all seven Green Chromis have had it for about 5 days now (Coral Beauty has thus far been resistant). <Probably still infected, just not sympotmatic.> I've been treating the display with 'No Ich' for a couple of days (Skimmer & Carbon Reactor are both shutdown), and although the situation hasn't gotten worse, it's not getting any better either. <I strongly suggest against treating the main tank, especially with a "medication" that does not list it's ingredients.> My wife and I are planning to move all the fish to Quarantine tanks (not sure if one 60 gal tank is best, or three 20 gal?), add copper, and pray. <I would try to go with a combo of these if possible, otherwise the 60.> One fish guru at my LFS that I've known for years suggests my wife and I are already doing everything we can; he says in his experience (he's battled Ich for years in his reef tank) even when he's removed all the fish from his display (for 6-months at a time!) the Ich still remains in the display. I thought I read somewhere that the Ich population can't survive without a host for more than a month? <The science says it cannot live without a host. Most likely his continued problems are due to incomplete treatments for the fish or cross-contamination with another infected tank.> Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, we really appreciate it. Daniel <Welcome> <Chris> RE: Ich- Ack!, Marine Treatment 5/13/08 Chris, <Hello> We are going to go with three 20 gallon tanks to Quarantine all the fish. Just to make sure, each Q-tank needs: Heater, Pump, Copper medication, Light No filters since we'll be using copper, correct? <Yes, although you could try to use an inexpensive sponge filter to try to get some biological filtration going. Also, Tangs are very sensitive to copper, I would look into using a quinine sulfate on this fish.> Thanks again, Daniel <Welcome> <Chris>
Ich or not to Ich And now QT RE: 4-3-08 Thanks Yunachin for your advice. My only issue is space for a quarantine tank. Can I use a 6 gallon bucket and connect an air stone for 3-4 hours a day? Something similar? Thank you again. <No, You would do better purchasing a 10-20 gallon tank due to the fact that you will need filtration. Read up on quarantine tanks here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quaranti.htm; Most often it is better to spend the money on a small quarantine set up, than losing money on sick fish. Good Luck. --Yunachin> Super Ich? 3/14/08 Dear Mr. Fenner, I think I may need counseling. I will be as brief as possible. After suffering multiple losses from a case of Oodinium I heated the main system to 85 degrees and let the tank go fallow for 10 weeks. At about the eight week mark I set up my QT (bare bottom, PVC pipes, hang on filter with sponge from my Nano) and purchased a Yellow Tang and an Orange Spotted Goby. I had observed them in the LFS for about one week prior. I believe this particular dealer runs copper in their system. <Mmm... if relying on this as a prophylactic therapeutic treatment... you must need know this... and that the concentration is constantly high enough...> These two fish thrived from day one. I waited a full 4 weeks prior to adding them the main system which was left alone for 10 weeks. Today is day 14 since in their new home and you guessed it, to my horror, ICH! <So... I take it this is not related to the previous incident with Amyloodinium/Velvet> I feel as though I am always so careful. Per your advise I have read many of the articles on Ich prevention and it's life cycle. I always use freshwater + Methylene blue dip prior to adding to the QT. Is it possible that the parasite survived in cyst form in main system for so long? <Possible? Yes... again... you're talking two different causative organisms here> Does the type of substrate, I have about 1.5 inches of black sand, affect the survival <Perhaps... I think the presence of organic "mulm" is likely more of a factor in such extension> To add to my problem I now have a Pygmy Angel and a Flame Hawk fish occupying my QT. My kids told me to go to the fish store and ask them what to do. As I have learned this is not always a good idea. I told them that my best advice has come from the "guy who wrote the book." Would it be best to break the whole system down, use bleach, let it dry and entirely replace the substrate. After doing well in the hobby for about 5 years I now understand why so many get frustrated and leave the hobby. I'm not ready to do that. Thanks for listening. Sincerely, Mark Conley. <I do sympathize with your situation, and wish there were some "killer technology" I could avail you to give strong assurance that this situation might be resolved for sure... You are indeed faced with the two extreme choices... to dump/bleach the system, starting over... Or continue some means of treating the present... A formalin-based dip will kill the resident trophonts... I would review the general articles on both these scourges: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm (and soon), and make this decision... through knowledge and action. Bob Fenner> Yet another case of crypt... and RMF's ongoing crap attempts at sarcasm 3/9/08 Hey crew! <Howzit?> I'd really like to field a question to you guys. <Well, okay!> From what I gather on the site, copper or comparable alternatives are best bets in a hospital tank treating crypt, along with hyposaline conditions (<1.010) if the fish can handle it for 6-8 weeks while the main tank goes fallow. <Mmm, depends... on what means by "best", the species involved, their apparent health otherwise...> I've been going in circles with the LFS which have been insisting that upgrading to a much larger UV filter and supplementing food with garlic along with vitamin C will cure crypt. <Mmm, will not... I'll bet you any sum in the universe> They've made claims that they've cured massive outbreaks of crypt in their 2400 gallon show tank this way. <Mmm, define "cured"> In a lack of judgment I listened. You've probably already guessed it didn't work. <What a shock! Okay... am terrible at cheap drama> While I was doing this (since I had my doubts from the beginning) I've put together a quarantine tank and the only thing left to do is move the fish. Our current setup is a 180gal FOWLR (since our xenia died within minutes of adding a teaspoon of concentrated garlic...) <Yummy on pizza, some soups... and not too bad for breath... as long as all are consuming... Oh, back to your story> We have a 6" powder blue tang, 6" Koran angel, 2.5" flame angel, two 4" yellow head sleeper gobies, very large tentacle anemone, 1.5" black/white false percula clown, couple cleaner shrimp, 1" yellowtail damsel, 1" striped damsel, and a handful of turbo snails/stars/etc. Tank is approximately 4-5 months old, our first attempt at saltwater... and either the powder blue tang or the Koran introduced the ich (last two fish added) <Easily done... not quarantined...> We're running wet/dry with a 40gal sump, couple 1200gph return pumps, needle wheel skimmer, and 50 watts of UV on one side of the return, along with 200 watts of HOT5 and 400 watts of PC. I've also put together a 56gal column hospital tank with identical water parameters (1.022 salinity, 82F temp, 8.4PH...) with a canister filter (no carbon), small UV filter, bare bottom with PVC pipe for fish hiding decor to use as the quarantine tank. I've got cold feet. If at all possible I do not want to put the fish through the stress of being moved. They are all eating fine and active, although the Koran seems to scratch himself on the aragonite and the rest of the fish seem to fling their bodies against the water jetting into the tank, like they are trying to knock something off of them. Is there absolutely anything I can do to deal with the ich without putting the fish through the move between tanks? <Sure... seek to strike a "balance" of sort; like the 2,400 gallon tank folks... See WWM re Parasitic Marine Tanks...> This just feels like too many fish to quarantine in such a small tank and I've got a gut feeling they wont all survive the juggling. Thanks in advance for all of your help and insight... because of this site and Bob's book I've had exceptional fortune keeping fish alive, and I want to do everything in my power to "right" the situation I've caused through poor quarantine practices. David <Read on!: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and as much of the linked files above as you can stomach, till you understand your options, the logic/rationale, even (gasp!) science behind your situation. Bob Fenner> Crypt 03/06/2008 Hello Eric, <<Good Evening Don, Andrew here>> Hope all is well with you/WWM crew. <<All doing very well thank you>> I am one of those guys that learn like a mule. So I bought a Powder Blue Tang and I did the freshwater bath for 6 ½. minutes and quarantined for about 2 ½ weeks <<I would quarantine for 4 weeks>>. I know crypt was either on him or in the tank still. Its not bad. He gets about 3 - 5 spots daily. All the other fish are showing no out right signs of infection. I have the 75 gallon up and running it was cycled already even though I know if/when I have to use copper (bought a couple hundred tests for testing multiple times daily) I'll lose all bacteria. Got that covered to by installing a RO/DI unit for massive water changes. Question is at what point would you take out the fish put in QT and go fallow for 6 weeks? <<The infected fish should be held in quarantine and run hypo salinity for. This process will last about 6 weeks. The display should be left to fallow through-out this period. If not left to go fallow, cysts that could of fallen off the infected fish and attached to rock and sand can simply just re-infect another or same fish. BY going fallow, it removes the much needed hosts from the tank for the ich to attach too. Read more here and the linked articles and FAQ's>> <<http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm>> <<http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm>> Bob this note is to you personally, I don't know you but I really mean this that without this web site and crew I would have never learned all the information you wrote. I go on forums and it is a joke what they have to say so a big thanks. <<Bob will see these kind words, and am sure will pass on thanks for your kind comments>> Don V. <<Thanks for the questions, hope this helps. A Nixon>> Re: Crypt 03/07/2008 Sorry for the mix up. I must have asked the question wrong. <<its fine, we'll try again..>> At what point would you go fallow because I have read a ton of FAQ's say that if Crypt is seen here and there on maybe say 1 fish and not all WWM had responded to just keep an eye on the tank and add biological cleaners. What I was wondering/asking when do I need to go fallow or I might be not understanding the answer and your telling me as soon as you see the outright tell tale sign of salt like dots go fallow right away no matter what. <<Realistically, as soon as Ich is seen in the aquarium, fish should be removed to quarantine and allow the display to go fallow. Personally, i would not just monitor them/ leave them in the display. Lots of opinions on the treatment / control of Ich.>> I completely understand the life cycle of the parasite and I do know if a heater would quit or electric go out or undue stress Crypt will go completely out of control. Sorry again. Don V. <<Hope that clears the query up for you Don. Thanks. A Nixon>> Cleaners not consuming Crypt 3/5/08 Bob Quick question for you. Will cleaner shrimp and cleaner gobies, like say the skunks and Neons, eat the cyst shelled stage of ich that would be laying on the sand and live rock? Will they eat the other two stages also? Thanks again for your time, Todd <Mmm, not the resting stage really, or should I state, not reliably... the other stages can't be seen... Qt tank and Ick, lots of reading 3/2/08 Hello, I Have removed all My fish from a 95 Gallon Reef tank because of a Ick Breakout and Placed them into a 55 Gallon Qt <Not quarantine, now treatment> Tank I have a Hippo tang a yellow Tang and Vermillion Tang and a Dragon Wrasse and Two Pink Skunks and 2 Blue small Damsels ... What is the best Medicine or Remedy that is safe <None are safe and effective... all have elements of risk> for all fish to cure the ick in a QT Tank I have Bought the copper treatment <There's more than one> and test kit but have kept it about 0.15 0.20 or lower <Lower is of no use> as I was afraid of hurting the fish is there a better way and safer way my one skunk has Popeye also now and not eating Is this from the Copper .. <Might be, indirectly> I plan on a 25 % water change today and have been reading about the Epsom Salt treatment and thought I would go that way for the Popeye but still don't want to put the fish back into the reef tank till I know the ick is Gone .. They have been in the Qt tank For 7 Days Now and have a long way to go before I put them back into the Reef tank I also checked all the other standard tests and the check out ... Thanks JIM <A bunch of reading for you: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm scan down to the sections on Crypt... Bob Fenner> Ich...oh me oh my, more reading 3/2/08 Hello Folks, <Chris> First off, thanks for the great site. You guys provide a wealth of information, that I should really listen to more often. So, my tank is currently being burned with a nasty case of ich. I've lost my two clowns already, and i have two mollies that are showing a few white spots, but otherwise appear to be ok. (Eating, no heaving breathing, no scratching/twitching). The last fish in the tank is a yellow-tail blue damsel who is showing no white spots and appears to be healthy. Other inhabitants in the tank are a skunk cleaner, an emerald crab, and 3 Nassarius snails. The tank is 55G with SG = 1.023, <I'd raise this... see WWM re> Nitrite = 0, Ph = 8.1, Ammonia = 0, and Nitrate is < 10ppm. I have read that it's possibly for ich to obtain a "happy balance" with a tank that isn't highly stocked like mine. <Mmm, yes> That is to say, that the fish will appear healthy, but the ich will never really go away. So, what to do? I (now) have a small 10G hospital tank set up. Lets say it's possible to get those 3 fish out of the main tank and in to the 10g quarantine. How long would I have to wait to guarantee that the ich would be gone from the display? <See WWM re: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Scroll down to the section on Crypt> Is it possible for the inverts in my tank to keep it alive? <No> Also, I haven't been using any copper medication on the display tank because I heard that it will seep into the rock and basically make it impossible to keep inverts. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. <Read> Also, you can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to be using that QT from now on. But, I guess you don't really believe prevention is the best medicine until you make a mistake like this. Thanks guys, Chris <Keep reading. Bob Fenner>
Ich-fest 2008, Marine Treatment Options, 2/21/08 Hello again WWM Crew! <Hello> Thanks for all of your help on past issues. I hope I am not asking too many questions, as I try and read everything here at WWM I can, and then ask a question if I am still confused. <No worries.> I wanted to ask your opinion on an ich outbreak. <Ok> After a long but valuable waiting/cycling period, I had just completed (finally) moving my livestock over to my new 125 g (with ls/lr) tank about a week ago. Everyone was doing fine, loving life, and the new space. Water parameters are, and have been daily for the past week : ph 8.3, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates reading between 5-10, salinity 1.024 and water temp at 78 degrees. <Good> Having just moved the livestock over a week ago, obviously I am watching them closer than usual and as of 10:30 last night, not one had any (visible) signs of ich. This morning, at 7am, this is what I found: Flame Angel (ich spots visible) Black Back Butterfly (ich spots visible) Blue Hippo Tang (ich spots visible) Black Perc. Clown (ich spots visible) Tomato Clown (ich spots visible) Gold/Maroon Clown - NO visible signs of ich Banggai Cardinal - NO visible signs of ich Pajama Cardinal - NO visible signs of ich 3 Stripe Damsel - NO visible signs of ich <Not good.> I also have 3 peppermint shrimp, 1 chocolate chip and 1 red knobbed stars, and about 15 or so various hermit crabs (blue legged, red legged, and 1 neon blue striped) I wanted to mention that there are no quarrels between the fish. The clowns are all tanks raised, has been introduced simultaneously to the old tank a while back, and have always gotten along great, and no one else seems to be bothered by anyone. <I would watch the clowns very closely here, the Maroon in particular will get more aggressive with maturity.> I've been watching the behavior in the new tank to see if anyone was being aggressive, and it does not appear to be an issue (at least all of the time that I am watching). <Good> My question is, being that my main tank is now infested, how should I go about treatment? <Remove all fish and treat, let the main tank run fallow for 6 to 8 weeks, details listed on WWM.> I'm thinking it would be best to treat all of the fish(except the inverts), since even the ones that do not show outward signs of ich have still been exposed to it. <Yes> I do have the old tank running still (just in case), but need to take it down in a week or so due to space limitations. <Will need to find some way to keep the fish out of the main tank for up to 8 weeks.> I still have the old (crushed coral) substrate in there, but the LR has all been moved over. <The CC will be a problem since it will react with most medications making it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels. I would plan on removing it if you are going to use this tank.> The water numbers for this old tank, as of today, are almost the same as listed above for the new tank. ( ph 8.3, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates reading between 5-10, salinity 1.024 and water temp at 78.4 degrees <Good> I have read through the great information here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the associated links, and seem to now have a basic plan of attack. I was planning on moving all of the inverts to the old tank and treating the main tank. I was going to raise the temp of the main tank from 78 to 83-84, but wondered if a schedule of 1 degree increase every 24 hours was too much too fast? <Is ok, but I would not use the main tank, if so all LR and substrate will need to be removed. Looking for just glass, water, some filter media and PVC for hiding spots.> Also, I was going to take the salinity from 1.024 down to 1.018 and wondered what a schedule of decrease should be? <Would not bother, not low enough to help treat the parasite.> Finally, medication. Given the mixture of fish I have listed above, which medication should I use? <With the tang and clowns I would stay away from copper, probably go with formalin dips along with hyposalinity (1.009). Otherwise perhaps a Quinine.> I am really timid about using toxic medications(as I have no experience with such), but if I need to I need to. <Will need to treat the fish (outside of the main tank) in some manner to kill the Crypt.> What I'd really like to know is how you (if this was your tank) would attack this outbreak? <Remove all fish from the main tank, and do formalin dips along with hyposalinity (1.009) while allowing the main tank to run fallow.> Thank you again for the wonderful site, the great information, and your time. Mike P. <Good luck.> <Chris> Saltwater disease??? Reading, knowledge, intelligence, wit... 2/14/08 all hail BOB, <Yikes... all this while I thought/figured the U.S. was turning to the inevitable aristocracy... Maybe there's room for some sort of new religiousosity as well?> I have inverts.... anything you swear by to get rid of the ich? <Uhh... reading...> again my tank is 550 plus the sump... with 6-700 ish pounds of live rock its hard... no wait... I DON'T want to chase down the fish... <Too big a system for that... have to drain...> plus the stress on them would make matters worse... <Better than dying?> I have so many crabs and critters that I don't want to kill, so the regular treatments don't fit my plan... any ideas? this is getting quite expensive to treat. Thanks a zillion, Jim <Your options are spelled out, the rationale presented... here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Bob Fenner>
Ich resisting treatments, hypo. failure, quinine poss. 2/6/08 Hi and thanks in advance for your help! I will do my best to have proper grammar but I m French so excuse my errors. <No worries. We make especial exception for non-native speakers, writers> I have a problem with marine ich that I can't seem to be able to resolve, I have been reading a lot on your site and many others and I'm now at the end of my resources and don't know what to do next. I will give you a description of my system and a step by step of what have been done to help resolve the issue. Tank is 78 gallons 4feet long and for filtration I have a basement sump 54 gallons with refugium filled with a deep sand bed and Chaeto, just over the sump there is a 25gal frag tank with a 2' sand bed and a few live rocks, in sump protein skimmer and 70 lbs of live rocks in the tank. We want to add a 220 gallons linked to the same system but will not do so until this ich issue is resolved permanently. I only have about 4 more months because these fish grow fast. We started the tank in august 2007 and by the end of September we introduced 3 fish ( a pink tail trigger 3.5', Picasso trigger 2', hippo tang 3' that all get along great) since we wanted to introduce the 3 fish at once for territory issues we broke our fundamental rule of 6 weeks quarantine period.. big mistake'¦ <Oui> within the first week ich started and quickly became out of control.. I read a lot about the parasite in question and decided to go with hypo salinity treatment of the display tank <This rarely works> so we removed the live rocks and moved them to the frag tank and turned off the pump and valves for the sump we have a shotcrete structure in the tank that cover the overflow and provide some hiding place plus we added some base rock and live rocks we didn't like that much and made some caves for the fish to hide when needed. We also added a canister filter and then lowered the salinity to 1.009 after 4 days the ich was gone we then waited 4 weeks and brought the salinity back to 1.023 over the course of a week or 2 everything was fine'¦ a few days after we connected to the sump and ich was back again. We then waited a week and it got so bad that we decided to start hypo salinity again'¦ I added some rocks in the sumps during week 3 of the treatment and thought it might had contaminated again.. so this time I decided to not add anything to the sump system at all (there is a medium white spotted crab and a few snails in there) we continued hypo salinity for 5 weeks then we took 2 weeks to bring the salinity back up and waited 2 more weeks with the system in full salinity for a total of 9 weeks without linking the tank to the sump. Everything was great no ich and healthy fish so we brought the rock back up from the frag tank 2 days ago and aquascaped the tank as I was preparing to connect the sump again we noticed that the hippo is cover with ich again and the pink tail have some too. <No fun> I was under the impression that ich could not survive more then 4-5 weeks without a host and that invertebrate were not consider has host. <Was with a host... not killed... the embedded trophonts/Crypt in the skin/connective tissue of the triggers, tang> With the rock in isolation with only a few corals and inverts for 9 weeks I assumed they would be fine? What is the next step I don't know what to do anymore and I m very discouraged. Thanks in advance for your help. Marc <I would go the quinine treatment route. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm Bob Fenner> Marine ich, Treatment options, plans 1/31/08 I'm looking to eliminate ich that I have in my 90gal reef tank and was wondering what my best option is going to be? <There are a few, details available here http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm , http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm .> Noticed recently that some of the fish have ich especially my hippo tang. <Tangs are very susceptible.> This system has been set up for about 2 1/2 years with fish for about 2 years all added within the same month. I'm looking to removing all my fish and placing them into another tank. My problem is first of all of the live rock and corals that are in the system... there's almost no way I can catch all my fish without removing basically all of it. My next problem is where to put all my fish where they will be safe treatable and healthy for 2+ months. I don't really have the money or need for another aquarium but I want something kind of large to keep the fish happy and not so aggressive also to keep the stress level down (the hippo is a drama queen). Was wondering if I could buy like 2 large storage totes, one to put the rock in so I can catch all the fish and the other to put the fish in. <Many do this, just make sure to get food grade containers to avoid any potentially toxic chemicals. Their biggest downside is that it is difficult to get a good look at the fish to check their health.> Could the fish be safely kept in a storage tote? (just so you know I would be getting the largest tote I could find guessing but around 40-50gal tote) What type of stuff, filters skimmers lights etc would they need to be able to stay in the tote for like 2 months? <Heaters, water movement and sponge filters are the way to go here, avoid the skimmers and carbon when treating since it will pull out the medication.> I have plenty of extra heaters and an extra carbon filter or two laying around. <Go with a plain old sponge filter here to start with.> I even have a nice extra light if needed. And during these 2 months I plan on treating the main tank with "rid-ich marine" only because it says reef safe and I don't think it would hurt to treat that a few times during the 2 months even when there are no fish present. <I would avoid treating the main tank with anything, the Ich parasite cannot complete its life cycle without a host. Your main concern here is cross-contaminating from the hospital tank.> I also plan on treating the fish in the tote with whatever you tell me to :) as I'm sure you know a good one to use. <All listed on WWM, articles linked above.> So that was my plan and was curious to what you thought and more importantly if my idea is good (using totes) what is a must have in the tote with the fish in it because they will be in there for close to 2 months. <Water quality is the biggest problem, be prepared for lots of very frequent water changes.> <Chris> I have some issues maybe you can help?, Marine Ich treatment options, 1/31/08 * Hello all! <Hello> I first must tell you how grateful I am to have found you! Your site has saved me before so I'll give it a go!* <Good> I have a 155 bow front tank that is in the wall. I have limited access to it from the front ( only the center for the most part). The rear access is limited as well because of the height (4ft off the floor). <That would be a problem.> I have FOWLR witch consists of a snowflake ell, 4 damsels, 3 clowns, trigger, q angel, yellow tang, hippo tang, br tang, snails and h crabs. I have a sump system with: 20watt uv, protein skimmer as well as a ro machine no qt tank (Du!!). <I highly recommend investing in a QT, helps you avoid many issues altogether.> That being said I am still learning 2 years later with minimal problems (knock knock). I recently added the 2 tangs (brown and hippo) because of my access problem (behind the bar I might add) I have a hard time catching even netting fish that have passed (I was sold a bridge when it was set up). The 2 tangs have ich (the first out break in the tank) with my limited access and lack of a near by hospital or ems unit what would you suggest? Thank You again for your support! Keep up the good work for all of us that don't! * <Without a separate tank to treat the fish in you are limited to keeping the water quality high and good nutrition hoping it helps the fish's own immune system to combat the parasite. Avoid treating the tank, any effective treatment is not safe for the main tank, regardless of what they advertise.> <Chris> Any last ditch differential diagnoses prior to copper treatment for suspected marine ich? Perhaps reading 1/9/08 Hello all, Thank you for your prompt attention to this question. I am a new marine aquarium hobbyist that has a 47g bowfront reef tank 60lbs live rock, an Orbitz light system a Rio 2100 powerhead a MaxiJet 600 powerhead a remora protein skimmer (MaxiJet 1200) one clown fish, one pajama cardinal one blue Chromis and one baby tang <This system is too small for an acanthurid> added in that order approx 1 wk apart. <Sans quarantine> All fish getting along no fighting that I am noticing. All play nicely together. Besides the Pj's loner status. I just traded the larger one greater than 3 inches that came with this tank (broken down by someone who was moving). I'll trade him in when he gets bigger too. (also a half dozen snail hermit crabs, one small green torch, one small colt coral, and one soft coral that I haven't been able to ID yet that my husband bought. Several days ago I noticed small white salt like spots on the blue Chromis in the morning under the actinic lighting that appeared to be ich. <Likely is Crypt> Being so new in the hobby I was really hoping I was wrong. I read and read and thought for sure it was ich. Came home from work that evening and surprise-gone. Next morning/evening same cycle. 3rd morning spots on tang-lots-in the evening gone. When the spots are gone doesn't matter what lighting they are under-really not able to be seen. None of the fish scratch/flash have cloudy eyes poor eating habits. <Good description, observations> Water chemistry is good: ph 7.6 (yes a little low <Actually, this is disastrously low... pH scales are base ten logarithms... If your "pay" were this different from "normal" you'd be howling> I was working on bringing that up), nitrate 5ppm, nitrite 0, ammonia 0 phosphate 0.09. Had the water tested the day the ich showed up (3 days previously) Salinity 1.025. I know that the cysts from ich can drop off, but I wasn't sure that it would or could follow such a pattern. <?... Please... read on WWM re...> I have set up a quarantine tank cheapie set up from Wal-Mart (60 bucks) <Too late for quarantine... now you have a choice for treatment or...> (14g) no substrate pvc pipe for hiding spots, all filtering stuff from the hang in filter removed, and am working on heating it up right now as we speak. Cupramine is in the tank as directed to 0.5ppm (per directions on bottle). Any last ditch ideas that this could be before I start the copper tx? LFS said I didn't have to do the freshwater dip if I was doing the copper. Do you agree? Potential micro bubbles?? I read the article how the guy turned off his protein skimmer and the "ich" disappeared....don't think that is the problem. Also, I do need a surface skimmer. I have noticed that the oily film is a little too present for my liking. (In the meantime directed powerheads to break surface of water more readily to drive the protein down so that the protein skimmer could possibly pick it up more.... Counting on you to give me a differential diagnosis. Or is it really and truly ich? Thanks, Erika <Have just skipped down. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm and the linked files above... You need to understand your options... and these are gone over and over... Bob Fenner> Re: Any last ditch differential diagnoses prior to copper treatment for suspected marine ich? 1/9/08 Hi Bob, Just wanted to let you know the fish were quarintined for two weeks prior to my getting them from the fish store. <... then... where did this parasite come from?> Thanks for the input all fish are now in the quarentine tank receiving copper treatment. <... Please... read... don't write. RMF> Re: Any last ditch differential diagnoses prior to copper treatment for suspected marine ich? 1/9/08 debating on the subject of "all fish carry ich" vs. it can be quarantined out. <Not often simply through quarantine procedures> Wonder if it could have been stress induced between the tang and blue Chromis the two fastest active fish in the tank. You input is appreciated and you knowledge on this subject is probably infinite... I am in the medical field, in anesthesia and it takes years to acquire the knowledge and skill to perform my job and to do it well. When I was in school, the learning curve was huge, and there were many opinions and many ways to perform the same job. Some methods were in direct opposition to each other. It is very frustrating. But certain methods worked well in the hands of some and not so great in the hands of others. <The actual factors, instances must need be studied... patterns, consequences ferreted out> When my LFS says I don't have to quarantine they have already done it, <Mmm... there are some (I know of three in the U.S.) who have facilities, the actual discipline for this... REQUIRES: separate facilities... a locked room, really... STRICT separation of all equipment... for a MINIMUM of two weeks. Does your store have this? IF not...> I take them as a local source of authority on the subject. I do talk to them about some of the potentials of cross contamination etc. None of the store workers etc. quarantine their fish at home. They thought it was an extreme methods to quarantine for another several weeks in addition to their two week quarantine. <Again... Please... read... my books, articles...> Another argument for not taking the fish out to treating the ich given to me by the LFS was that often you induce more stress on the fish when your tank is that much smaller and conditions are not the same as the main tank. (lighting from the cheap bulbs in the quarantine tank vs. Orbitz lighting system etc. Really would like your opinion on this. <This is a very valid concern, equation to consider> I spend more time reading marine contents than medical contents right now. <Heeeee!> Often times in conflicting opinions it is most wise to discuss the subject vs. just reading, taking it for gospel and still making mistakes. (Thus M&M morbidity/mortality conferences in the medical field-issues are discussed as to what went wrong, options opinions and resolutions) <No gospel here... but I did read the M and M weeklies for a few years... Morbid (sorry for this) interest. BobF> Re: Any last ditch differential diagnoses prior to copper treatment for suspected marine ich? 01/13/2008 update: approaching 1wk of hospital tank Cupramine tx for crypto. I had told you that my ph in my main tank was low-using SeaChem marine buffer to increase my tank ph-tests confirmed by LFS that ph up to 8.2 only after using twice on main tank. <Please read... re the addition of alkaline material and cupric ion... these are "contraindicated" as they likely say at your school (Mayo)> Will continue to monitor. Reading somewhere that the ph is lower than desirable in new salt water mix I added (obviously too much) to my new salt water that was aging for my HT. <I'd be looking at other brands...> I use oceanic SeaSalt <I'd be...> mixed ro water aged 24 hrs and heated with one of those tiny heaters. No powerhead (is that completely unacceptable? (Pls advise). <Posted. Please read> Anyway I got a snowstorm <From...?> in my HT, immediate water change of as much as I could (approx 6 of 14 gt).~(50%) That's all the new salt water I had ready. (I live in a condo) no garage-no extra room either. Most of precip. was suctioned out. Worked on getting rest of precip out over next several days of daily 50% water changes. (still added Cupramine-tested seemed to be 0.25.-0.5 Blue Chromis. clown fish doing well eating well, PJ cardinal listless not as interested in food-barely feeding. Tang faring probably worst emotionally/neurologically. Appeared yesterday to not be able to see bumping into pvc not reacting to hand in front of glass not feeding. (this tang is juv-1-1/2 in.). Feared copper tox. <You're right> even though testing and reading through top of test tubes. Took water sample into LFS, tested said NO copper. Told problem with buffer- <Oh! They're right> said it bound to the buffer and precip out. <Correcto... see my comment above> NOW question: I would say the tank today looks as clear as prior to buffer ever being added. Tang seems to have perked up. Ammonia level appear to be the lowest on the colorimetric reading chart (forgot the ppm) nitrites 10 prior to daily50% water change. Ph 8.2 Sm. amt precip still on bottom of HT, Do I dose up copper heavier to match the color chart recommendations (awful hard to tell) or will it continue to bind until all precip on bottom of HT is absolutely gone? <... you should read; but yes> Since according to LFS says "0" copper do I have to start counting my HT time from day zero? <Yes... correct> I've been reading for 3 hrs tonight learning lots... <Ah, good> but have not found this question answered.-though I love my tank-not the most ideal way to spend Sat. night. Pls advise. <Unfortunately... present day knowledge transfer mechanisms do not allow for much improvement here... I don't know (much) of what you know/don't know... so can only re-direct you to delve further... the use of copper compounds is actually well-elucidated... it's just that there is so much material and too much dissonance in the hobby interest/collective mind re> PS the fish don't hide in the 2in pvc pipes only behind it...therefore not a whole lot of known hiding space to fish, any advice? <... more PVC parts. BobF>
Ich in the display 1/6/2008 Hello crew, we have become addicted to your site, we read the FAQ's everyday, once we start reading we can't stop and can recite some parts by heart. <Oooh, I do hope you'll be joining us in responding someday soon> So here's our situation... we are new to the hobby, we did not quarantine and have learned our lesson, too late. We have a 75 gallon tank, started 4 months ago. SG-1.025, Am-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-20ppm (but the new refugium should bring that down soon), temp-stable at 78-79, KH-fluctuates 8-10. We have 2 false percula clowns, 1 jeweled blenny, 1 dwarf flame angelfish, 1 small Foxface lo, 1 Paramonacanthus japonicus filefish and 1 Lactoria cornuta, juvenile. We also have assorted hermits, cleaner shrimp, urchins, Featherduster worms and a hitchhiker porcelain crab (who we could never catch!). We know our mistake here, we love the Lactoria so much but it did come with white spots. It feeds normally, acts normally and we have read countless material on this, which says this is common with this fish. However it seems to have spread to our Perculas. We have just identified this in the last day, it does not seem to but severe however it is obviously spreading. All treatments seem to be impossible in tank because of the diversity of life. <Is so... fishes need to be treated... elsewhere> Space is our biggest restraint because we live in a studio apartment. Any advice on what we can do, we have read your site repeatedly and the more we learn the less we know. It seems we need to remove all of our fish, treat them in a separate hospital tank, and somehow remove the ich from the display tank. <Not so much as remove, as ignore... will "die back" in time w/o host fishes> Is this our only option? If so how big would the hospital tank be? <About what you have currently... Is there a shop/LFS or other earnest aquarist nearby who might help you to move/treat all at their place?... You might be able to treat all in a large plastic tote (or two)... with heaters, water changes... but quite a hassle...> Does is need a protein skimmer? And what about filtration for all these fishes? <Just "good" water quality, whatever means employed> Not to mention water changes as the display water infested with ich would be out? <Correct> Would we have to cycle a new tank? <Mmm, no... not practical...> As you can see from reading your site we are more confused and have more questions than answers!! Please help and thank you for having patience with us, we really want to succeed and don't want to add to the numbers of people who drop out of this hobby due to ich! Jess and Layton <A very hard lesson indeed. The other alternative is to try and seek an uneasy balance here... Please read: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Ich... Crypt conundrums, Ich X product... 12/7/07 Hello <Todd> I have had problems with ich in the past and have read tons of stuff on the parasite. I had lost everything to the parasite last time around. I let my aquarium go fallow for over 2 months, nothing but live rock, snails and crabs. Bought a yellow tang, damsel and a tomato clown, quarantined them for four weeks and saw no sign of any disease, put them in my 120 gallon and about a week later what looks like small white grains of salt started to appear again, then they were suddenly covered with them. Put them back in the quarantine tank, lost the damsel and clown, now treating the tang with copper. I have no idea what I'm doing wrong? <Mmmm... perhaps nothing you are doing, but somethings more you could do...> Is it possible the ich didn't die during the two month fallow period I stretched the fallow period just to make sure? <A possibility, yes... more distal as time goes by...> I know one of the fish could have been a carrier and not showed any symptoms, should I treat everyone before they enter my display tank, I know I shouldn't but that's how I feel. <This is one approach... immersion or baths/dips...> I would hate to get a full aquarium then bring one fish in after quarantine and get everybody sick!!! <Yes... happens way too frequently... And most all could be avoided... by collectors, wholesalers, retailers, consumers... Better "up the line"... through simple pH adjusted freshwater baths, possibly with adjuncts> I have excellent water quality, excellent water movement and excellent skimming. The only problem that I see is that my temp is a little high, my aquarium is a in wall set up and its in a closet in the other room and I need to install some fans to blow colder air from the basement to get it down to about 78 degrees, now its at about 84. But wouldn't that temp just speed of the life cycle of the parasite so they would have died quicker during the two month fallow period? <Also might stress the livestock hosts...> The high temp would also spread them quicker if they were still there or introduced again when I added fish rite? <Right> From what I have read after two months of going fallow they shouldn't be there? <Again, less likely with more time going by, elevated temperature, decreased spg...> Could it be something else in there besides ich, that looks like ich, that the fallow period isn't getting rid off? <Yes... but if protozoan/parasitic, should likewise "die-back" with time, lack of hosts> From what I have read and seen in pictures it looks like ich. If I drop the SG to like 1.009 is that going to hurt my live rock during my next fallow period? <Yes... see WWM. I would not lower the spg this far> I'd hate to rip down the tank and throw away $1500 worth of rock and sand and buy all new rock and sand!! But I don't know what else to do. The fish seem very healthy when I get them and during quarantine, my LFS runs ICH X in there system and the fish that I buy are there for two to three weeks before I pick up, so if they had any thing it should be gone even before I quarantine, a few other fish have been from LiveAquaria. I had a 55 gallon for years and never had a problem, even without a quarantine tank, not even a dip. Now I quarantine and freshwater dip, spent a bunch of money on a nice setup and have had nothing but problems. I think I'm just going to get a cat!!!!!!! HA HA Just kidding fish are to cool!!!!! <I do like cats as well> I have a feeling its coming from my tank because of how fast it is spreading. What do you think of ICH X? <The Hikari product? Water, formaldehyde (<5%), methanol (<2%), malachite green chloride (<0.1%)... I would NOT use this in a marine setting... see WWM, articles, books by myself re each of the active ingredients... Too toxic, transient and ineffective against marine pathogens> Or should I just stick with copper, it seems that its the most liked for this parasite. <You should read> Thanks so much for your help!!!! And for the best fish website out there!!!!! Todd <Please use it. Start here (again if necessary, the case): http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm Scan the titles... take good notes... and write back with specific questions if you want. Bob Fenner> Re: Crypt conundrum... treatment or stasis... Copper use 1/16/08 Hi Bob, <Nancy> I just wanted to let you know that I started to treat the Sailfin Tang, Yellow Tang and Orchid Dottyback with Cupramine in the 10g isolation tank. <Way too small...> I know that you're not suppose to put these two small tangs together, but these two follow each other around and the Yellow Tang is lost without the Sailfin Tang. I was on the second day at half dose <Less than a physiological dose of treatments is worse than worthless> when I noticed the Yellow Tang started to have the DT's. After completing a water change, the Yellow Tang went frantic and darted across the tank and ended up floating upside down. <!?> I thought it had died. I took him out of the tank and noticed he was still breathing. So I put him back in the tank and he started swimming again, and even ate a few pieces of seaweed. Relieved that he was ok, I immediately decided to stop the copper treatment. I put some CupriSorb in the tank and went to work. When I came home from work I found the Yellow Tang dead. I was sad because I wanted to keep these two together because they got along so great. I just want you to know that I think treating fish with copper is extremely cruel and should not be considered as an option for treatment. <... is one of very few> I think there are other, safer methods of treating your fish such as water changes and UV sterilizers. While they are not 100% effective, with proper nutrition the fish should become immune eventually. <Please... do tell> I recently read a study posted on the Internet about the ich parasite (I tried to locate this study again but was unsuccessful). The study was about populating the ich parasite in an aquarium by introducing new parasite free fish as hosts. The idea was to keep these now infected fish alive by replacing them with other healthy fish. I think what the study concluded was that after about a year, the parasites all died off (that is how I interpreted it - some of the terminology was difficult to understand). Have you ever heard rumors of such nature? <Don't think so> I'm assuming that if this is true, and you don't introduce any new fish into your aquarium, then after about a year or so your tank will be ich free (assuming an effort is made to minimize the parasites with water changes, UV sterilizers, ozonizers, proper nutrition, etc). <This sort of stasis is described... and archived... over and over on WWM: Start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and the linked files above...> I also want to mention that I have saved my Atlantic Blue Tang twice now with a UV sterilizer and water changes. <Stasis... not cure> She is currently residing in a 20g sump tank waiting to go into the new 215g tank (I still do not have my stand and I'm trying to get a different tank from Oceanic). I am also feeding her Spectrum (as you suggested) and Azoo Beta-Glucan and not only does she love the stuff, but she is doing great! <Ah good> I also want to mention that this fish is awesome! It has the most personality of any fish I've ever seen. <Ah good. A positive data point for Acanthurus coeruleus husbandry> Thanks for your help. Nancy <And you for your further input. BobF>
Quarantine Question, Marine Ich 11/29/07 Hi crew, <Hello> I have a question concerning quarantine procedure. I have all my fishes including a purple tang in hospital for ich. I am dosing with Coppersafe at 5ml per 4 gallons of water. <Careful treating Tangs with copper, they generally do not handle it well.> I plan to keep this up for 4 weeks. How can I be sure that my fishes are ich free at the end of the QT period? <Keep them in QT for at least 4 weeks after the treatment is finished, most likely ich would show itself before then.> I understand ich can still be in the gills even if it isn't visible on the fish. If my fishes are not scratching and there are no visible signs of ich for 4 weeks can we say that ich is eradicated? <Not for sure, but is most likely the case.> I am asking because this is my third time fighting this parasite in the last 6 months. I attribute my past failed attempts to improper QT procedure. <The most common cause.> I have since made some improvements including keeping all equipment and supplies dedicated to QT and testing and maintaining copper levels. Oh, and can you tell me if it is at all possible to eradicate ich completely from tangs? <Can be done, the problem is that copper treatments are not tolerated well by tangs so other methods need to be used.> I have heard opinions to the contrary and need to hear it from WWM. Thanks a lot! <With proper procedures it can be done.> Stan Young <Chris> Ich Treatment and Options 11/26/07 Hello everyone at WWM, <Hello> I have a little situation I need help with. I have had my 100 gallon saltwater tanks setup for a little over 2 months. I have a blue hippo tang that is starting to have small white spots on his skin. I believe this is ich. <Could be.> It is very faint now but I want to prevent it from getting worse and spreading to the other fish. <Most likely already has, just not symptomatic.> Please tell me anything I can do to stop this. <Several options here, most require the setting up of a hospital tank for treatment while the main tank runs fallow for 4 to 6 weeks. See these articles and related FAQs for more. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm , http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichart2mar.htm , and http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php .> All my other fish are fine. No spots or anything. <Still have ich in their gills most likely.> There behavior is great, and I feed them foods with garlic. I heard that helps. <Nothing more than an appetite stimulant in my opinion.> Please give me any tips you have on how to stop this. <All listed on WWM.> And is does ich get so bad where it could ultimately take over my tank completely? <It can kill all your fish if allowed to progress that far.> My tank is not crowded at all. Only two of my fish are decently sized the rest are only 1 to 3 inches. (including the blue hippo) If you guys could help me out it would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Tom <Check out our FAQs and articles on the subject of Marine Ich, all you need to know is there.> <Chris> Ich... Crypt reading 11/24/07 Hello, I hope you all enjoyed your Thanksgiving. I just lost my Kole tang to ich, I didn't catch it soon enough and was unable to set up a QT tank to treat him soon enough. (lesson learned about QT) I now have it set up and have the rest of my fish in it. I plan on leaving them in there for 4 weeks with a copper treatment. <Mmm, only two weeks for copper exposure... any longer is not useful, and IS toxic> I also have a snowflake eel in my main tank, 75gal, with my LTA and starfish, should I be treating the eel as well? <... you should be reading. The eel is acting as a reservoir host...> I'm not sure if they are susceptible to ich as the fish are. <Not as much in most circumstances> I have been unable to find concrete information on snowflakes and ich. If I should be treating him how should I do it? I was under the impression that copper could harm it. <Harms all... Muraenids more than "average"> I hope while my fish are in QT the ich will die out of the tank. Can it host on the eel? <Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Yes> and will I be able to get it out of my system with the eel in the main tank? Thank you for your help. ~Michelle <You may find that moving the eel to yet a third tank... treating it with a quinine compound is most efficacious. Bob Fenner> Ich Attack In My New 210 FOWLR -- 11/17/07 Hello Eric me again! <<Hiya Don!>> Well I had moved all my fish from the 54 to the 210 a couple weeks ago and they all had come down with Ich. <<Hmm'¦hopefully the 210 was fully cycled/ready to receive livestock>> I had/have Coral Beauty which is looking bad my Pearl Scale Butterfly died and my Fox Face and Tomato Clown are all in a 20 gallon treatment tank. I had used Quick Cure for three days <<Mmm, nasty stuff (Formalin and Malachite Green)'¦and likely better used just as a dip>> and stopped due to they seemed to rather have the crypt than the meds so I stopped and started Herbal Ich Attack which seems ok. <<Maybe so'¦I have no experience/real knowledge of this product, but Bob knows and has good things to say of the owner/manager of Kordon/Novalek >> I know formalin is rough stuff and I had never used copper and read FAQ's on Dwarf's and formalin and copper. Guess I'm lost at the moment, and I didn't wait at all for the Ich to get bad. What would you have done or what should I do next time? <<You are doing what you can with the quarantine/treatment/research (do be sure to follow the manufacturer's instruction of this product). And as I'm sure you have already read, you will need to let the display system run fallow for the next six weeks. Prevention is the key here, be sure to freshwater-dip and quarantine any new acquisitions (a freshwater-dip going from the quarantine/treatment tank to the display is also a good idea)'¦hopefully there won't be a 'next time.' And, do ready yourself/keep reading up on our info re these processes/procedures>> I know the Ich was from the 54, it just decided to spread. <<Was already present, yes'¦and manifested as a result of stress'¦either from the move itself or something amiss in your new display>> I feel like I read as much as possible and I'm still losing. Sucks. <<Do keep reading my friend'¦the knowledge will come'¦and is your best weapon in this fight>> Plus it doesn't help when my wife and friends tell me to quit the hobby. <<It can indeed be tough when problems arise and you don't have the support of those close to you. If I may make a suggestion'¦ Take a breath and slow things down. Take your time with the treatment of the remaining fishes while allowing the new system more time to 'mature.' Let the dust settle for a bit and hopefully things will begin to look-up>> Don V. <<Regards, EricR>> Eradicating ich - Is it possible? -- 11/17/07 Hello y'all, <Butch> It is with great sadness I am asking this question and will try to keep it as short as possible. <Take your time> I have recently gotten a 210g reef aquarium set up. It is about 8 weeks old (after cycling). I had a 75 a couple of years ago but moved and "upgraded" in the new house so I'm not a newbie but still learn all the time nonetheless. <I as well> I acquired an Achilles tang from a friend of mine who was moving out of the country. <Yikes... perhaps this species should have a nominal sub-specific name: Acanthurus achilles crypticus...> He had this fish for several years with no issues to speak of. I know tangs (especially Achilles) are more susceptible to ICH. In my 75 there were a couple of ICH outbreaks with my Yellow Belly Blue Tang <Neat... A new name for me for Paracanthurus> but he (and other fish) always got through it okay so when my Achilles got it I wasn't too concerned because he still ate like a pig. I didn't treat the tank with anything since I have heard the "reef safe" treatments don't really do much. <Is an oxymoron... like militaries bringing peace... There is no such thing as a reef safe/effective treatment for Crypt> I kept feeding, kept the water changes up and just tried to give the fish a stable, stress free environment. Finally when it didn't appear to be getting better I started a reef safe treatment and although it appeared to be getting better I came home the other night and was shocked at the tangs condition. I was very surprised it had made it through the night and took him out of the tank to treat in an old Aquapod I had but I was too late and he didn't make it. I will admit to not employing the use of a QT tank and have learned a very difficult lesson with my favorite fish and will be a proponent forever more. My question is this. I still have a Percula clown, a pair of skunk clowns and an African Midas blenny (possible a Tomini tang although I have not seen it in a couple of days and am afraid he perished too) in the tank. I know that as long as there are fish in the tank that the parasite has hosts and cannot be totally removed. Since it is a reef tank I cannot treat with copper so I am more than willing to remove them to a QT tank and treat them. I am curious though, if I treat them and keep them in a QT tank and keep the display tank fallow for 6 weeks would that guarantee the ICH not to come back, providing of course I QT each fish going forward? <The longer the fallow period, the "better" the guarantee> I have heard that ICH is always present (although from reading this may be due to peoples lack of knowledge of the parasite's life-cycle) <Yes... there are SPF, specific pathogen free systems... though they are rare in hobbyist, retailer settings> in our tanks but doesn't show until the fish gets stressed or their immune system is suppressed somehow. <Well put> If this is in fact true and it can never be totally eradicated, where as QTing would insure I am putting a healthy fish into my MY tank but what is keeping it from contracting the disease in the future? <A stable, optimized environment, good nutrition... careful stabilization of new livestock...> Sorry, this didn't end up as short as I'd hoped. As always thank you for you time a knowledge. Butch <A pleasure to share. Bob Fenner> Question about a comment... Crypt. Biocide/bleach washing -- 11/17/07 Hi Crew! *waves* I have a question for you. I was reading up on live rock and came across the below article on your site. I've been struggling now with ich for a year. I cannot rid of my tank of it, I have tried copper, I have tried fallow, I have tried kick ich. <This last is worthless> Nothing will work for me. I've decided I want to start my fish keeping from scratch, and put my existing fish into a quarantine tank, along with any new fish that arrive in the future. My question is this, I know in the below mentioned you say you can bleach soak the rocks and sand. Are you serious? <Oh yes> Can I actually do this? <Certainly> I know it sounds crazy that I ask, but really, this would allow me to really truly start fresh and do it right, without having to buy all new stuff. Please tell me this is the truth and not just a funny answer.....I imagine as long as you wash it REAL well afterwards it's reusable? <Yes... a bit more to it...> Or is there something that would easily pull out the chlorine bleach? Thanks a million. I love Marine Tanks, but I just can't get rid of ich and it's making me really uncomfortable knowing I can't get any new fish. Also, just wondering, I live in a very cold climate, gets down to -50 F here in winter. Could I freeze the sand and rock? <Could> Would this accomplish same without such harsh chemicals? <Mmm, no. Chlorine bleach is about the best, most widely-available. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/clnornart.htm This is the same protocol...> Thanks 1.25 million, oh and can you e-mail me back? or do you just post the answers? Thanks! <Both. BobF> (the article I read on your site) Live Rock & Ich Hi Bob, I am in the process of taking down my 26 gallon tank, completely cleaning it, then re-starting. If I thoroughly rinse my crushed coral substrate and let dry in the sun will that kill off any lingering ich parasites? What should I do with my live rock to cure all ich? I would like to add live sand this go around, does it require any special maintenance? Can I get it from the beach? I have heard that I should not use live rock AND an undergravel filter as they will work against each other, so if that's the case what other filtration can I add in addition to a CPR backpack, a Fluval 2, and the live rock (3/4 pound per gallon) Maybe a good size canister like a Fluval 303? Thanks. <Well, let's see. Yes, you can rinse and air dry the current substrate to rid it of ich life stages. But I would chlorine bleach soak it, rinse it and just dechlorinate it for immediate re-use. Re the live rock, you could just let it go fallow in an aquarium with no fish livestock for a few months (2-3), but if you have no desire to preserve the living part of it, treat it with the bleach et al. process used for the sand. The live sand can be treated/maintained in a few ways. I would use Live Rock with it, indeed, just allow the live rock to "seed" the sand. Don't get the sand from the beach. A lot of trouble and problems with introducing undesirable and dying life forms, pollution... Instead just buy the substrate from a dealer, rinse it and place it before the Live Rock. You can use an undergravel filter with one or both (live rock, sand). If you'd like you could add another filter to the system, and a canister or good sized outside hang-on power filter are both good choices. Bob Fenner> Light case of ich, Crypt 11/15/07 Hi all, I think we may have a light case of ich in our tank. (I've written previously about our clowns, Carlos and Maria who are, thank goodness, now both eating well.) We have a 60g tank with live rock and some small corals. Our water quality is good, no nitrites, nitrates, ammonia, etc. We have two cleaner shrimp, snails, hermit crabs, and a small Banggai cardinal. It appears that sometimes the clowns will have a couple salt flecks on them, other days they don't. They don't try to scratch themselves on anything, and all are eating heartily. Reading on your site, I see that you sometimes advocate non-medicating in light ich cases. My question is, is this something that will eventually take care of itself, or is even this light case something you advocate treating medically? <Posted... in this scenario... likely the former> We haven't noticed any spots on the cardinal, but his silver color might be a camouflage. If you think we should just wait it out but then it doesn't get better, at what point (severity) do you think we should transfer them to medic tanks? If you do think we should medicate, I think I read that clowns are sensitive to copper...? Thanks for your continued patience and help. ~Ashlin <I'd keep reading, but not medicate at this juncture. Too much more likely to be lost than gained. BobF> Sensitive species Ich treatment. Crypt 11/08/07 Hello, <Billy> I have used WWM multiple times in the past, and through searching the site have never actually had to ask a question myself. I really appreciate the time and effort put into this knowledge base. I was hoping to be one of those people, of which I am sure there are many, that was able to find all of their answers using the search tool. Unfortunately my ego is not that lucky, but my fish, as yet, are unable to type so here we go. <Okay> If the answer is there then my apologies, but I was unable to find one specific enough to suit my Obsessive Compulsive tendencies. I have need to treat 2 True Percs, 1 Foxface, 1 Coral Beauty, and 1 Snowflake Moray for Ich simultaneously in my quarantine tank. I know these are mostly sensitive species, so a solid procedure would be appreciated. Again, thanks for all that is done through the WWM Crew's knowledge and experience, Billy <I would go the quinine route here... due to the sensitivity range of the fishes stated. Use the search tool here: http://wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm with the terms "crypt, quinine" and read the cached views. Bob Fenner> Ick in a saltwater aquarium, Treatment 11/2/07 Hey <Hello> My name is Elisha and I have a question for you... <Ok> I recently purchased a coral beauty angelfish and put her into a QT tank for 4 weeks. When I moved her to my main tank, within a few days I noticed ick. At that point she is still eating, so long as her food is mixed with garlic, she is rather picky. So I removed her as well as the others from the main tank where she was with a cardinal, fire-goby and some inverts. She was placed by herself and the others were placed in a different QT tank as I am going to let my tank run fish free for a while in attempt to reduce the ick population. <Good> Now, I have freshwater bathed her and added Seachem's ParaGuard but the ick will just not go away, in fact the freshwater bath didn't do a thing and was so stressful on her. <FW dips are of limited use against Ich, the parasite burrows too deep into the skin to be effected much. The ParaGuard is pretty toxic stuff being made of Malachite Green and not as effective as some other treatments. Copper may work here but the goby is pretty sensitive too it, formalin may be slightly better in this case, although it is pretty toxic too all life, fish included. Since you have two QTs available I might try the changing tanks every day method, where you sterilize and dry out the unused tank before switching the fish back to it.> She did not eat for 2 days after that, and I did plenty of research before I did a freshwater bath (proper temp, ph, etc...) Now I am at a complete loss, as the ick does not seem to want to go away... any suggestions? <Need a more aggressive approach here, the FW dips alone will not solve your problem.> <Chris> |
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