Ich dilemma  10/20/07
Great site! - If I would only listen and take the advice!
<Hi Steve – Brian here, Thanks for the compliment!>
Here is the issue:
60 gallon display tank with Whisper 60 powerfilter , red sea protein skimmer (useless), Fluval 404.
<If properly setup, the RedSea skimmer will be effective in your system>
Crushed coral, one small piece of live rock
36 inch light “perfecto light” bulb 30 watt
1 Condy anemone, 2 small mat anemones, 1 brittle star, 1 turbo snail, 1 tiny sea star
3 inch yellow tang (ich), a 2 inch cinnamon clownfish
Temp. 81, pH 7.7, kH 7, 0 ammonia, nitrite, nitrate
Tank has been running for about 1 year with the cinnamon and inverts. Added yellow Tang about 2 weeks ago, did not quarantine (stupid!), he now has ich.
<Zebrasomas are famous for this!>
I have a 10 gal and 20 gal quarantine tank set up (won’t make the same mistake again)
<Way to go!>
What would be your approach to this situation? If I remove and treat the yellow in quarantine – will I still have ich in the display tank? <Yes> If so, how would you treat the display? Should I remove the inverts and treat the display? <No> Should I remove the fish and leave the display with inverts only? Would this “starve” the ich?
<Removing the fish will eliminate hosts for the free-floating stage of the Cryptocaryon life cycle. They can survive for just a few days without a host. There is another stage prior to the free floating stage in which the parasite resides on the substrate. They can survive for up to 2 weeks in this stage. Plan on keeping your fish in quarantine for 4-6 weeks to make sure that the parasites have completed their life cycle and died off in your display tank.>
Should I remove the yellow and the cinnamon to quarantine together and treat for ich ?(malachite?)
<If you can remove both fish easily, place them in a quarantine tank and treat them. I would recommend using copper. You may be able to effectively kill the Cryptocaryon that are attached to the fish. However, if there are still Cryptocaryon in the first stage (cyst attached to gills - this is how they got into your tank in the first place) treatment may NOT be effective.>
I could remove the inverts to the other tank and then treat the display or leave it fallow.
<No, No, No…let’s do this by removing the fish and treating them. At a year old, your tank is established and whether you know it or not, has many microorganisms working for you. If you remove the inverts and treat the tank, you’ll probably end up killing these creatures. Before you start your treatment, take a look at this article: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
Thanks
Steve Salek
<Good Luck Steve! Keep us informed – Brian Griffin>

Ich, Inadequate Environment, Poor Advice from LFS, More Research Needed – 10/9/07
First off, let me say that I love your web-site!
<Good to hear!>
As a newcomer to the saltwater fish hobby, it has been extremely helpful. I am hoping you can help me with what I am sure is an Ich problem in my fish tank. I purchased three fish (regal tang, anthias, and longnose butterfly) a couple of weeks ago from one of the few stores that sells saltwater fish in my area. I currently have a 55 gallon tank and a 10 gallon QT tank. I was told by the store owner that my 10 gallon QT tank was not big enough to hold all three and he suggested putting them in my main tank.
<Your main tank isn’t big enough for these fish either. Three fish is also too much to add at one time.>
My main tank had been set up three months prior, and everything was going great, water parameters stable, all fish and invertebrates doing well. Current stock of fire shrimp, two peppermint shrimp, blue-tipped anemone,
<A 3 month old tank is not an established aquarium. An anemone needs an established, stable environment. It is recommended to wait 6 months to one year before adding an anemone.
yellow tang,
<This is much too small of a tank for one tang, let alone two.>
clownfish, Chromis, and a leather soft coral. When I went home to add the three fish, all floating in the store bags in my main tank, I noticed a white spot on the butterfly fish's tail, so decide
to put him in the QT tank. I brought a picture back to the store and asked him if it was Ich. He said it was not and to net the fish and gently rub off the white spot and to quarantine the fish for a couple of weeks.
<Yikes!>
I did as told and after no more signs of trouble, added the fish to my main tank three weeks later.
<Three weeks is not long enough.>
After about 5 hours of the fish being in my main tank, he had multiple white spots on his fins. At first I thought maybe this was just sand that had been kicked up from my gravel cleaning and water change prior to adding him.
<You’re using gravel?>
I then turned off the skimmer thinking maybe it was just tiny bubbles. I am afraid that was not the case. I returned him to the QT tank later that evening, and added CopperSafe at the suggestion of a co-worker who has a 250 gallon for 10 years now. He seems to be doing great. However, a day later my regal tang is showing signs of Ich in my main tank. I am now afraid that I have an Ich infestation in both tanks.
<You sure do!>
I purchased a bottle of Ich-Attack from another pet store and was going to add it to my main tank. It says it's safe for invertebrates, but after talking with the store owner where I normally purchase from, he says that it is not an effective product. He also said that he thinks the Ich was in my main tank to begin with and that the only thing I should do are keep my water quality high and feed the fish well.
I am afraid that my Regal Tang is going to continue to get worse, there are more spots showing up. Luckily none of my other fish are showing any symptoms. What should I do?
<Return them. A 55 gallon tank is much too small for Tangs, Longnose Butterfly, and Anthias. Research everything before you purchase. You can’t depend on the advice given at the LFS. It is your responsibility to know the requirements of the animals you purchase. Research quarantine, Ich, hyposalinity, and quarantine everything you purchase.
Sara
<Brenda>

Ick... Crypt, cavalier approaches to life/living... reading, caring... in which order?  9/26/07
Hi Crew,
This email was written over a number of weeks.
After 3 years of clear sailing I am now in my second bout of ick within a few months.
<No fun>
The first bout started in June. I took the fish out of the tank which is a 10 gallon into a spare 10 gallon.
There were a pair of neon gobies, a clown goby and a royal Gramma that had been together about 2 years.
<Need more room...>
The neons were in very bad shape when I started to use copper medication.
I think the brand is Coppersafe.
<Gobies don't "like" copper...>
The clown goby had some spots but not too bad and the Gramma looked OK.
The neons died a few days later.
<...>
By then the clown goby really looked bad.
He was full of what spots and the skin looked terrible all over. The Gramma had some spots but did not look too bad.
The Gramma died and the clown goby recovered. It took a while for his right color to come back.
I put him back into my tank after 4 weeks of being empty.
After a couple weeks I got a bi colored blenny (no qt, some people never learn).
from someone in the neighborhood who wanted to get rid of it. A real tough guy. When I put my hand in he takes a nip. He eats anything that I put in the tank. His feces is green but I never see him eat the algae.
Then, a couple weeks later, I got a neon goby that was wild caught (no qt).
After a few days I saw some spots on the neon and it slowly got worse.
Then the clown goby got some too. I was not in the mood to set up a separate tank.
<...>
I decided to try Greenex despite all the horror stories read about it since there were a couple successes with it.
The directions calls for one drop per gallon. I am not sure how much water is in my 10 gallon since there is a large rock (10#) and almost an inch of sand. besides the fact that
so many people reported they wiped out everything using this stuff. So I decided to do it slowly.
Day1, I put in 5 drops of Greenex .
Day2, I put in 6 drops of Greenex.
Day3, I put in 7 drops of Greenex.
Day 4, the neon seem to have less than the day before. But it is hard to tell whether it is improving or just part of a cycle of the ick. At this point the fish, corals (mushrooms and candy canes) and snails (astrea, Nassarius and limpets) seem to be OK.
<... if enough medication was added to remedy the Crypt, these would be dead...>
I have some blue legged hermits and they seem to be less active.
I decide not to put in any more drops.
Day 7, the clown and neon both look better but still have white dots and the neon lost some color.
Day 8, I finally saw ick on the blenny. Everyone is still active and eating but I am afraid it would get to the point of no return. I do not know if I just did not put in enough Greenex
<...>
or did not give it enough time but I am afraid to experiment any longer so I decided to go back to what I know works.
I set up my other 10 gallon and treated with copper. So far I got the clown out after a few tries. The neon is being very allusive. I am not going to take out the blenny until I get the neon. (The blenny should be easier to catch since he does not run away from the net. He even attacks my hand if it is in the water.
Really scared me the first time since it was so unexpected.) The neon has a hole he darts into as soon as the net is in the water.
Day 1 on copper, I caught the neon. He went to the top expecting food when I came in the room, so I just made of flying catch using the net. He never saw it coming.
I did the same with the blenny a few hours later.
Day 2, all are eating and active. Neon has less white than before. The clown still looks very bad. The blenny looks better.
Day 3, about the same.
Day 4, Clown goby looks better, neon goby still looks bad and is not eating and blenny seems sluggish.
Day 5, about the same.
Day 6 All look much better and are eating and active. I was using one of those cheap heaters and it got submerged, sputtered and I unplugged it.
Fish still OK. Not sure if I should take the heater out of main tank and leave it without heater or leave fish without heat. It's in the 80's during the day so I will leave the fish without a heater.
Day 7 Tank is cold, and fish are not moving much. It was cold overnight but the house does not feel cold. The tank thermometer is a strip and it shows 72, but that is the lowest number. Put heater in tank.
Day 8 All look good. Clown goby has his color back but is quiet today.
Neon goby has smooth skin but still has color blotches where infection was very bad. Blenny looks as it did before.
So after 8 days of copper ick is gone where before after 8 days it was still bad. Maybe not a fair test since I did not use the recommended dosage of Greenex. I started diluting copper by replacing one gallon and will do this for the next few days. Will leave fish here for another few weeks to leave other tank fishless.
<... Uhh... past time for you to read... re Crypt, Treatment Systems, Quarantine... Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
Bob Fenner>

Marine Tank Disaster!...Time For Reading/Proper Protocol…And Maybe, Think Outside The Box – 09/22/07
Hello Crew, Happy Friday!
<<Hiya Sebastian…is Saturday now>>
Well, not for me.
<<Uh-oh!>>
I am about to throw the towel and dismantle my operation and call it quits.
<<But why my friend?>>
Eric, if you happen to get this email please excuse my ineptitude.
<<Tis I mate…and please…explain…>>
It seems every week I get something taken care of and then something else happens.
<<Mmm…perhaps moving too fast?>>
The latest disaster happened last week. I decided to add another fish to my fish tank, of course did I quarantine? NO! Did I dip it? NO!
<<Ugh…I think I know what’s coming>>
So I found my purple tang that I have had for over 4 years covered in Ich (C. irritans) and now the wrasse has it and all the fish have it.
<<A hard “lesson” indeed>>
Well, can't do hyposalinity or copper with all the SPS corals in there.
<<Corals or not…is always best to treat “outside” the display>>
I set up a 10 gallon tank with water from the main system and added a powerhead.
<<Better than nothing…but needs to be larger>>
I then had to tear all the rock out to be able to get the fish out and place them in the quarantine tank which is now being treated with Copper-Safe (Mardel Labs). How long do I leave the fish here?
<<Usually a minimum of four week’s treatment…but do read up here (http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cuduration.htm) and among the associated links. And are you aware some fishes are sensitive to Copper treatment? Tangs in particular as it can destroy their gut-fauna (read here/among the links: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/crypttangs.htm). I have seen Anthony suggest treating Crypt by keeping fishes in a bare-bottom hospital tank and merely siphoning away the larvae from the bottom daily until this protozoan is gone… Perhaps coupled with a pH adjusted freshwater dip…>>
Do I need to wait until the Ich dies without a host in main system?
<<Indeed…letting the display sit fallow for 6 – 8 weeks is best>>
Any more suggestions?
<<As stated…along with much reading/keyword searches>>
Secondly, after taking the rock apart, I discovered so much detritus in there I was disgusted so it was a great opportunity to do a water change and I did. Well, I tried to place the rock work back in a manner in which more circulation would be possible to avoid this and in the process I managed to knock most of my corals off their rocks!! Some were encrusted, and well, they are no more.
<<A deep breath my friend…can all be repaired. Look at this as an opportunity to improve the look of the display. Surely there are aesthetic considerations you wished to change/had done differently from the beginning (if you’re anything like the majority of hobbyists [grin])>>
Then I could not get the frigging rocks to stay put and I can't seem to be able to stack them all the way to the top, any ideas? Suggestions?
<<Yes… Think “out of the box.” Strive for a more natural (and eye pleasing, in my opinion) presentation than the typical “rock wall” so prevalent in the hobby. Perhaps a couple “low” mounds of rock surrounded by sand/substrate to emulate a “patch” reef. Such a setting will allow better flow/circulation within the display…will give the corals room to grow and extend…and provides fishes the more natural opportunity to hang-out and swim “above” the reef instead of “in” it. There are other reef niches/biotopic (is this a word?!) replications you can try…unfortunately there is not much hobby literature on the subject (Scotter! Where’s that book?!), so investigation re will take a bit of research on your part (coffee table “dive” books are a place to look/get ideas). This is an ideal opportunity, while the display sits fallow>>
Does the rock have to be stacked all the way up?
<<Nope>>
Mid way?
<<Not even>>
I am very frustrated, I know I should have done a proper quarantine and I was lazy and undisciplined.
<<Ah…but what will you take away from this?>>
I have managed to glue all the frags back and hope they make it through all this.
<<Likely more durable/adaptable than you think>>
If you have any suggestions I would be most grateful.
<<Please do read “fully” where I have indicated…and consider my suggestion to “stray from the pack” re your aquascaping. Be chatting, Eric Russell>>

Re: Marine Tank Disaster!...Time For Reading/Proper Protocol…And Maybe, Think Outside The Box – 09/25/07>
Hello Eric!
<<Hey Sebastian!>>
Thanks again for your help and keeping me from having a heart attack.
<<Quite welcome...glad to hear you will “live” [grin]>>
I followed your advice and aquascaped and I am so happy, I removed several pieces of live rock and placed them in the sump, I made some pillars and caves with lots of space on top and bottom with minimal contact of rock to glass on any side, flow has drastically improved and detritus is getting blown to a corner where it is easily removed.
<<Excellent...you will find this is so much better than the ubiquitous “rock wall”...especially once your corals get large/larger>>
I lost 2 fish, however, tang, clown and cardinal are doing great.
<<Unfortunate...and was avoidable, as you know/learned...don’t let the loss be in >
Set up a bare-bottom tank with a powerhead some PVC fittings and I vacuum the bottom daily replacing half the water and treating with Copper Safe. I am being careful to replace the dose of Copper Safe that I remove through water changes. There are no more white spots on any of the fish and they seem to be eating.
<<Very >
I am also lowering salinity with each water change to help with osmotic regulation.
<I’m not a fan of hyposalinity, though many hobbyists/retail ventures do use it...is not “natural” to the fishes. I would prefer to see folks use pH adjusted freshwater dips before and after quarantine/treatment and leave the salinity of the treatment/display tanks at NSW levels... My two-cents...>>
So I am using a mixture of the advice I read on those links you provided. Hyposalinity, copper, and vacuuming the bare bottom. I am also letting the tank with out any fish for 4 weeks as you recommended.
<<As a minimum...six would be >
On a different topic, are there flatworms that are partial to certain kinds of acros?
<<Mmm, there is usually much chatter about “acropora eating flatworms” on the reef forums (Reef Central/Reefs.Org)...a keyword search of our site will yield some references as >
I have an Acro that suddenly bleached and upon careful observation I found these brown slippery little worms, they seem to have a couple little antennae on their heads.
<<Antennae? Likely not a flatworm...>>
I took the coral out and tons of worms came off of it, however, I threw away the frags after dipping in TMPCC just to avoid eggs. This coral was on its own separate rock and it has been removed as well, I have been meticulously observing all other frags and none seem to have worms, did I dodge a bullet?
<<Maybe, but hard to say without knowing what the “worms” truly are. Is even possible these organisms are harmless incidental creatures and the bleaching of the frag was related to something else. At any rate, do continue to monitor your remaining livestock and utilize the Tropic Marin dip (seemingly one of the better products for this) if you spy any more signs of infestation and decline>>
Am I not seeing well enough?
<<...?>>
The coral, however did not have any bite marks, just seemed irritated, and none of the others have any marks or signs of anything either. Please let me know what you think.
<<Close observation/time will tell... But just like your fishes...quarantine of your corals may have prevented this issue as well>>
Thanks again and have a great day!
<<Always welcome, Sebastian. EricR>>

Marine Ich, Overstocked 9/20/07
HI.
<Hello>
I'm kinda new to saltwater aquaria. I have a 46 gal. bow with a 110 AquaClear, a 280 Emperor with a BioWheel and a Remora C protein skimmer. Crushed coral for substrate and 30 lbs. of live rock. Is this enough filtration or should I do something different?
<I'm not a fan of crushed coral substrate, prefer sand which typically traps less detritus.>
The tank is 8-months old. Spg: 1.023, alkalinity normal, pH: 8.3, Ammonia; 0, nitrite:0, nitrate 20-40. Occupants:
1- yellow tang
1- blue hippo tang
<Both need a new home, grow too large and need lots of swimming room.>
2- ocellaris clowns
1- long nose hawk
1- flame angel
<Also needs more room than you have in a 46.>
1- six line wrasse
1- longhorn cowfish
<Gets as big as a football and toxic, inappropriate for this sized tank.>
1- chocolate star
<Cowfish food before long I would guess.>
2- cleaner shrimp (skunk)
few mushroom corals
I added the cowfish approx. 1 month ago. He looked great. So I regrettable added him without quarantining him.
<Lesson learned.>
I now know the importance of doing so. My cowfish came down with a horrible case of ich, he looked as if he were sprinkled with snowflakes. He acted fine swimming and eating well. However the other fish came down with it also. My local fish store told me to do quick-cure dips with fresh water. I did and four fish died after having been in them for 2 min. They did not seem stressed while in the bath, they were swimming. But when I placed them back into the main tank they barely moved and were breathing very heavily.
<Not normal for it too kill this fast, perhaps you massively overdosed? Or the fish were simply too sick to survive.>
So, after reading your website I have set up a 10 gal QT with Coppersafe and water taken from the main tank. The remaining fish (cowfish, longnose hawk, six line wrasse, and 1- clown ) are in it.
<The Cowfish is quite sensitive to copper, see here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/boxfshdisfaqs.htm .>
Should I add any antibiotics to the tank also?
<No>
And can I add a new yellow tank and flame angel to the QT with the others so that I can add all of them in 30 days to the main tank?
<No>
The main tank has the live rock, chocolate star and shrimp in it. I plan to keep it this way for the next 30 days in hopes of getting rid of the ich. Since there will no longer be a host for them. Is there anything else I can do to the main tank to ensure that the ich is gone before adding the fish again? Should I get rid of the cowfish since they are great disease carriers, or will the ich be gone from him now that he is being treated?
<Should be moved, but for other reasons. Raise the temperature some to help speed up the parasite's life cycle.>
Thank you so much for a great web site.
Kim
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Ongoing Ich Battle!
Dear WWM Crew:
<Scott F. your Crew member tonight>
I write to you in complete frustration and in need for some sympathy..........the reason ICH.........
<A frustrating problem, I know.>
I seem to have been battling this for years. So six months ago after I lost most of my fish I decided to take the following action. I removed the remaining fish that were left and put them into my quarantine system. I ran the main system with no fish for 2 months. During this time, I found new homes for the remaining fish and quarantined the only fish to go back into the system, a Flame Hawk. In addition I purchased three Convict tangs which joined the Flame Hawk in quarantine. I quarantined these for a total of six weeks with a two week period in between using hyposalinity.
<All good procedures, IMO.>
I introduced these fish to the main system, everything was okay. I then acquired two Red Sea Golden
Butterflies. They stayed in quarantine for eight weeks with a two week period of hyposalinity (sg 1.010) in between. I introduced them into my main system this past Saturday and now it's Wednesday and guess what? ICH! I ask you if you have any suggestions of what I should do now.
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Gene
Some system details:
Main tank 210 gallons, 75 gallon wet dry filter, 55 gallon refugium Additional filtration includes an Ozotech 200mg ozonizer and ETSS skimmer. Water parameters all seem to be in line (zero ammonia, nitrites, less than
10 ppm nitrate, ORP 429, Temp 80 ph 8.2)
<Well, Gene- it IS frustrating, isn't it? It seems like you're doing everything fine and still having Ich issues. My only two suggestions at this stage would be to get everyone out of the display aquarium once again for another 2-3 months or more, or to (gulp) completely break down the aquarium, sterilize everything, and start over. This is a very desperate measure, and I'd only do it as a last resort...I really think a longer fallow period is the best option. Such a long fallow period will deny the causative protozoa their hosts (your fishes), and thus deprive them of the ability to complete their life cycle. Even with extended fallow periods, you could still be looking at a possible problem-no treatment is 100%. My advice- try the extended fallow period and see how it goes. I know that it's frustrating for you, but if it's been 6 years, it's not too much to ask for another few months. Hang in there! Regards, Scott F.>

Ick question... not reading  – 09/08/07
Hi guys i have a q about my clown trigger i just got him yesterday from my LFS and he has a little white dot on he's fin should i leave him alone ? or treat the water with Mardel's CopperSafe ?
<I would do the former. And read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clntrigart.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: New Ich, & CMA update news   8/21/07
Thanks, Bob. It's turning into a real battle. I think I'm going to try and set up a 20 gallon for a 'true' quarantine tank, instead of the tote I was going to use. In the meantime, I think I'm going to go through the quinine sulfate treatment again. I hate that I'm reducing my bioload this way through death, though, but I believe the puffer is going to expire. I gave him and the yellow tang a fw dip, but he's not doing so well. National Fish Pharm recommends a treatment of every three days for three treatments, vs. what the guy told me on the phone, so I think we'll go that route, unless you can think of any other medicine the shark would tolerate.
<Posted...>
Just to be clear, Quick Cure (formalin, right?)
<One ingredient, yes>
is not an option, correct?
<Is used as immersion bath material by many folks, institutions... but the infested system needs to be sterilized, the animals moved in turn to other quarters>
In all my fish keeping years, I've never had this bad of a time with Ick. Honestly, it has been really discouraging, to the point of wanting to give up. Such a reversal, too, from getting a dream tank (200 gal) and finally having a shark to complete depression. Fortunately I've just gotten more resolved.
Your book came Friday, I've been reading it all weekend.
<Oh! And some good news there... my draft was finished 12/05... and TFH has asked Editor James Lawrence of Microcosm and I to bring it/CMA up to date... by Nov.! So a new edition will come out in early to mid 08>
If I can only save the Passer Angel and the shark, I'd be content with just those two beauties.
I'm taking hope that neither of those two show any active symptoms, which since I know the ick is there, maybe they are just more resistant or the quinine has prevented them from becoming infested. I guess I need to recommend not buying macro algae for anyone's tank, though rinsed it in fresh water hoping that would help. Anyway, thanks for any advice, and even a vent. Just know I'm still trying.
Thomas Roach
<Do re-read our Crypt sections Thomas and press-on... BobF>

Larger Tank, Marine Ich Treatment 8/10/07
Good morning,
<Good morning to you.>
I recently purchased a 30 gal tank. Not the largest, I know, but as big as space allows in my apartment.
Anyway, I had a 20gal high FOWLR tank that had been set up for over 4 months. The tank had 10-15 lbs live rock, 1nch of sugar fine sand, protein skimmer, Aquaclear 30 filter, florescent lighting, a few snails and small hermits.
For fish.. I have:
1 false Perc-- +/- 1.5 inches
1 Bi-Color Blenny +/- 2 inches (my personal favorite)
1 Fire Fish, 2 inches.
1 Mono argenteus (sp) -- before you say he is WAY too big for this tank.. I know that now, this was purchased before I was introduced to your FANTASTIC website. I was definitely a rookie, and how I was able to successfully acclimate him from a brackish to full marine setup, I have no idea.. BUT a new, 125 gal. setup is being cycled, and will be his eventual home (friend's tank). Since then, I have read a TON of this site, and am learning more and more everyday.
<Good>
Here's the question/issues: When I bought the 30 gal tank, the plan was to take everything out of the 20gal (live rock, sand, water) and put the extra +/-10 gals of aerated, temperature controlled, salinity checked, chemically treated water (this 10 gal saltwater treatment process took 3 days), and then put the fish in the tank.
<Ok>
This was all done in the above manner, slowly. My fish seemed too be doing pretty well overall in their new homes, with a bit of stress noticed but nothing major. I did read a lot about the suggested ways of doing the move..
And everything was "normal".. The tests were excellent, all values were zero... (weird?) The fish ate, were swimming around normally and active.
However, 2 days ago my fish.. all except for my Fire Fish (he/she is doing great)... were much slower moving, didn't eat much (maybe 1 bite max, if that).. and later that night were showing signs of Marine Ich.. they had very small white spots on their tails and that general area. I re-tested the water, and here were the values:
Ammonia: zero
Nitrite: .25ppm (100% positive it's "ite" not "ate"
Nitrate: zero
pH 8.0
Salinity 1.024
Temp 80 degrees.
Could the tank be cycling again? Maybe there was some die-off of live rock?
<Yep, that is most likely what you are seeing.>
Luckily, I had the 20gal tank full of saltwater (that was prepped, filtered, and being aerated for about 1 week.) This tank has no sand in the bottom.
<No LR either I hope.>
So, in order to treat the fish, I removed them from the 30 gal. tank, put the fish into the 20 gallon and (as the suggestion of the site, and the LFS (which is highly regarded in the area (and my opinion too) as being excellent) added copper to the water.
<Watch the clown closely here, they are sensitive to copper.>
I did take the filtration media out of the filter, and the filter is only there to circulate the water now. The media is currently in my 30 gal tank, which, by the way, has just welcomed 12 lbs of really nice, purple coralline live rock, added after the fish were removed.
<Good>
The fish in the 20gal seem to be moving around better than in the 30...
<Good sign.>
How does this all sound? Should I feed the fish in the 20 gal tank?
<A little.>
I know the suggested treatment is for about 15 days in the hospital tank.. but I'm weary of the tank cycling and harming the fish more... I will definitely test the water daily and make appropriate changes, and keep reading.
Thank you for all the excellent help!
Eric
<The 20 will cycle, there is no way to avoid that, but you want to let the 30 run fallow for 4 to 6 weeks so you don't just re-expose your livestock to ich after the treatment. This is going to probably require daily water changes for a while, which is a pain but the only way to really be successful here. Otherwise it sounds like you are on the right track.>
<Chris>

Re: New Ich   8/22/07
Thank you, Bob. I will press on, never fear... I have to much invested in them, by this I mean mentally and emotionally. The support we receive from this website is an inspiration. I will beat this ick, and let you know how it goes. Thank you so much, again, and looking forward to the revised edition!!!
Thomas Roach
<Real good. BobF>

Re: Larger Tank, Marine Ich treatment 8/10/07
Chris,
<Hello>
Wow, thank you for the quick response!
<Sure>
The 20gal does not have any LR in the tank, as you suggested. As for the 4-6 week time frame for the 30 gal to run fallow, should there be any inverts in the tank, or should I take them out?
<Inverts are fine as ich is not able to use them as a host.>
After the 15 day treatment for copper is over, I'm planning to slowly change the water so there is very little to no copper left in the system, then to add the filter media back, so that this will be effective filtering for the remaining 2-3 week time frame. Is this all right, or should I leave everything as is?
<Just to be clear you should be doing water changes now and re-dosing the copper up to therapeutic levels, but yes, after the course is complete do water changes and add carbon or Poly-filters to remove the copper.>
Once again,
Thank you for the help!
<Welcome>
Eric
<Chris>

Starting over after ich   8/4/07
First off thank you for providing so much great information! I have spent countless hours the past two weeks reading (and re-reading) all the info on ich, parasites, medications and more. Had I looked it all up to begin with I wouldn't be in the situation I am in now.
I have a 90 gallon FOWLR tank that has been going wonderfully for about 3 years. My water has always (and still does) test perfect and I do a 20% water change every 3 weeks. Some of these fish were my originals from 6 years ago in my very first 55 gallon. No new fish have been introduced in months but two weeks ago I noticed my clown fish had a cloudy eye and my tang had spots. Headed to my LFS where they introduced me to Kick Ich. I followed the instructions closely and waited for results. and waited- my fish only got worse. I took the whole tank apart to catch all the fish, freshwater dipped everyone and moved them to QT. Treated with copper and did constant tests but one by one my fish are all dying. My yellow tang looked much better, was eating his Spectrum Thera and seemed on the road to recovery- the next morning he was dead. So sad. Then all my other fish but one damsel have all done the same. Oddly the damsel has no spots or anything. I realize now had I not waited for the darn Kick Ich to do something and had gotten them right into QT then I possibly could have saved them. I think too much damage was done with all the chemicals and waiting. SO I am letting my main tank go empty for the next 6 to 8 weeks. There are snails and two star fish in there and about 150 lbs of LR.
I have some questions though- while the tank goes fallow should I replace any of the media? Should I put it in now or wait for the ich to die off. I have a wet dry with a Remora Pro. I took out all the carbon and the media sponge when I was doing the kick ich. Should I put all new stuff in there? Should I continue running the lights as usual or does that do anything to the ich in the tank? If my damsel does make it is there a chance he will bring the ich with him? He is in the QT with the copper right now. It just seems so strange that everyone but him got sick and died. Also when I do start putting new critters in there (which I am hesitant to do! I am so sad that all my beautiful fish have died ;() I want to put them in QT. Do you recommend treating them in there or just observing for a few weeks? This whole ordeal has been so awful. My husband thinks I should throw in the towel and give up on this hobby but I love my tank so much! I would love some advice and you guys seem to be the ones to ask.
Thank you so much.
>>>Greetings, Jim here. Sorry for your troubles! I know how hard things like this are.
First things first, after you have an infection, it's too late for quarantine. Quarantine is what you do when you get a new fish to PREVENT an infection from every occurring in your display.
At this point, leave your damsel in the hospital tank for another 6 weeks. Stop running copper and lower the salinity (slowly) to 1.009 for two or three of those weeks. Here's a link for you. http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html
Let your display run in hypo mode as well, without fish for a month. You may not want to introduce the damsel first, he'll think the whole tank is his! So maybe keep him in his own tank for now if practical. You can start introducing new fish, AFTER proper quarantine procedure is practiced of course, so you may need another small tank if the damsel is still occupying the other one.
Take your time, a new fish every month or three, and stock lightly!
Alternatively, (I just reread and noticed your tank is not a reef) you can run the hypo in your display with the damsel back in there. Use your other tank as a quarantine tank for new fish when ready.
Cheers
Jim<<<

Quarantine of different species, Ich cure for different species – 07/25/07
Good afternoon, All.
<Scott.>
Firstly, thank you so much for the previous help that you have given in reference to the Powder Blue Tang that developed ich within hours of placing into my tank (I learned my lesson about quarantining and will be setting up a QT this week to transfer my fish, treat them and let the tank go fallow).
<Good.>
Secondly, since the Powder Blue Tang was returned to the LFS, I thought I might have avoided everything else in the tank from contracting ich - alas, I was wrong. That leads me to my questions... is it safe to treat a Arothron hispidus, a Gymnothorax prasinus, a Zebrasoma flavescens, a Pterois antennata, a Cephalopholis miniata, and a Batrachomoeus trispinosus in the same QT at the same time for ich treatment?
<Two tanks would be better, but one hopefully is sufficient.>
I know that I shouldn't use a copper treatment with the puffer <don’t forget about the moray. It is even more sensitive than the puffer.>, so what therapy do you suggest?
<You can use copper, if you choose a chelated copper product and monitor closely with an adequate test kit. Any overdosing needs to be avoided. The safest (possibly less reliable) option would be to use hyposalinity in combination with frequent water changes and bottom siphoning. Ensure you have Cryptocaryon (salt grain like) and not Amyloodinium (countless tiny spots), because hyposalinity will not help with the latter. Please read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm >
Once again, thanks so much for all of your valuable assistance. Trying to keep my tank above water, Scott.
<You are welcome. Good luck. Marco.>

Ick... season, trtmt. issues    7/25/07
Hi Crew,
I seems like it is ick season.
<Agreed... and I don't think this is an artifact of human subjectivity...>
I lost 3 out of 5 fish. I still have a clown goby and a spotted cardinal. Treating with chelated copper. The clown goby improved a lot and is eating again. The cardinal never had anything visible but has not been eating. I am not sure if I can stop using the copper yet.
<Can, but you've "got to stay on top" of the dosage/concentration WITH testing>
I would like to see the clown clean for a full 7 days. Display tank has been fishless for 20 days so far. I have saved a couple articles in my favorites list which I keep reviewing regarding the ick battle. I think people have to realize they can not always win the war even if they follow instructions.
<Esp. when so much of such instruction sets AND proposed "medicines" are fallacious>
We are trying to medicate fish without being experts in the field so we are bound to lose many battles.
Just imagine if you tried to treat a very sick person using some instructions from a book and you are not a doctor.
Thanks
<Mmm, maybe... but this is actually how "real" doctors learn as well... BobF>

Re: ick 8/1/07
Hi Crew,
Well, it is about a week later. After my previous email both fish stopped eating but looked OK. I stopped the copper treatment a couple days ago and changed 50% of the water. Yesterday the goby started eating and today the cardinal also ate. Hopefully this war is over. The goby was really in bad shape when I started treatment. He had spots all over and then it looked like lesions on his skin. So copper can really cure them.
<Oh yes>
I am sorry I did not start treatment as soon as I saw the problem start. Then I might have saved my other 3 fish. I gambled hoping they would lick it on their own.
<Ahh, no>
I will try to wait at least one more week before returning them to the tank which will make it about 4 weeks fishless. I would prefer to wait a couple more weeks but my wife is getting impatient with this hospital tank.
Thanks for the info and support.
<Welcome. BobF>

Ick... Crypt...    7/19/07
Hi Crew,
I just lost some fish to ick. I still have a clown goby and a spotted cardinal. The goby really had it bad but I did not see anything on the cardinal.
<Not always symptomatic... the spots et al. are reactionary effects... In some cases the Crypt is so hyperinfective, it destroys the host/s ahead of the irritation showing on the body>
They are moved out of the display and I am using a product called CopperSafe. Both fish were not eating. After a few days they started eating and the goby really cleared up nicely
<Might just have been cycling... off>
and then I blew it. I started diluting the copper without realizing that at the time I was in a point of the cycle where they drop off the fish.
<Bingo>
So I did not get to kill the parasites at their vulnerable moment. And now my goby is full of spots again and not eating. I took him out and gave him a fresh water bath (I think he liked it) and started over with the copper. How long do you need to use the copper to assure you kill those buggers without killing the fish. Is 7-10 days after your fish clear up enough or do you need a couple of the protozoan full cycles. This process of using copper is easier said than done.
<Posted...>
I have no bacteria to convert the ammonia since I have no rock or filter. But even if I did it would die due to the copper, correct?. I have an airline with a stone and I siphon off the bottom every day. My testing shows ammonia way (.5 to 1) up but I am using AmmoLock to keep it from affecting the fish. So far their breathing seems normal. Is this OK or should I be doing bigger water changes? or???
<Also>
The only thing really gained by this is that my tank is getting a rest and my hairy algae is really doing bad now that nutrients have dropped off. Even some of the grassy type that sticks to the rock like glue is coming of if I pull it hard enough. I have mushrooms and candy canes and never feed them but now that fish to feed what should I give them? Is Selcon in the water enough?
Thanks
<Please learn to/use the indices, search tool on WWM. BobF>

More a story than a question (DSBs and Ick)  7/10/07
WWM : I'd like to share a quick story (experiment?) and a related hypothesis. I have a 4-year old 135 gallon reef with a 3-4" bed of mainly sugar fine aragonite. I recently bought and quarantined  <For how long? W/ or w/o dip/s?>
a Yellow Tang (Tangus Yellowus ) and was 'pretty sure' it was ich free. Of course, two days after I introduced it to the tank, it broke out with numerous ich-spots on its fins.
<The ich/Crypt may have been in the system, not on the Tang itself initially>
Feeling pretty discouraged, I quickly removed it and put it back into the quarantine tank, which was now turned into a hospital one. I watched the other critters in the main tank for a day or two, and of course, my Regal Tang ( Tangus Doryus ) showed a smattering of itch spots on its rear sides, the same place it had ich about three years ago.
<Bingo... it's an all Bingo morning! Very likely a resident Crypt situation>
Very reluctant to go through what I did the first time I had ich - catch all the fish, put them in two separate hospital tanks, nuke them all with copper, and let the main tank go fallow for two months - I decided to try an experiment first. The day after my Regal Tang showed no signs of ich, I vacuumed out the entire sand bed from the display tank. My theory is that since most of the tomonts ( the "divide-and-conquer" stage ) would have attached 'somewhere', most likely to the plentiful substrate, removing said DSB would remove most - if not all - of the tomonts.
<This is so>
After creating a system of siphons, pumps, large containers, filters, and helpers, I removed the entire 200 lbs or so of my DSB in about 3 or 4 hours.
<Wow!>
Looking back, I think it would have been easier to remove all of the fish, but you know about hindsight.
<Oh yes...>
So far, so good. I believe that I got lucky, in that all or most of the ich trophonts left the host(s) within a twenty-four hour period and attached completely ( or mainly ) to the DSB by the time I suctioned it out. The Yellow Tang is back in the display tank after being cured in the hospital tank ( I hope ), and everyone seems happy and healthy. Of course, I have lost the benefit of a DSB, and I haven't decided what to do with all of the sand yet, as it smolders in the outdoor sun, hopefully baking and incinerating those nasty little protozoa.
<How much time has gone by? Likely the protozoans are cycling... will be back like that hack Ca Governor...>
One curious side effect - my Royal Gramma now swims upside down all of the time while under my live rock caves and overhangs. It's as if the missing sand bed has confused it - which way is up ? Down ?
<Is actually the orientation that "they do" in the wild... No problem>
I'll let WWM readers know the eventual results of my experiment in a month or two, when I can be assured of success in my ich removal (reduction?) experiment.
Cheers -
SLC
<We'll see... Perhaps you'll (re)establish the uneasy parasitic system balance here... in favor of the host/fishes. BobF>

Re: More a story than a question (DSBs and Ick) ( For Bob F. )  7/12/07
Thanks Mr. Fenner :
There's good Karma in re-reading TCMA and receiving an e-response from his truly, in the same week. I'd like to clear up a few points from my previous thread ( below ), some of which are embarrassing given my experience and knowledge of this confounding hobby :
- The ichus-cryptus was most likely _not_ in the system - it ran ich-free for more than three years. I inspect my Regal Tang daily ( the ich-Canary in the reef mine ) - with the oh-so-original name of "Dory" - after my nightmarish first run-in with ich back in 2004. I can say with confidence that the ich just wasn't there.
<Okay... then whence forth?>
- The new Yellow Tang came from a chain Pet Store, whose name shall remain unspoken but rhymes with "Let Go."
<Oh, Pet, with a harsh kappa sound ahead...>
The tang I bought had no visible signs of ich when bought, but other fish in the same system - all tanks are plumbed together, with no copper or UV - had obvious ich-ness. The nice but recently post-pubescent LetGo worker answered my many questions about quarantine, salinity, temp and prophylactic-medication questions with , "oh, I don't know, but those are cool questions. What's ich - hold on, dude, my cell phone is ringing."
<Heeeeee!>
The tang was on sale, it looked abnormally healthy relative to peers in said system, so buy it I did.
- I quarantined it for 15 days, 6 hours. I ran it through hypo-salinity ( .017 ) and temps of ~86F. You know the results - I think a salinity of .009 would have been better, and yes, I know 21 days should be a minimum, 30 a better amount of time. Why did I cut it short? To quote Mr. W's Attorney General - "I don't recall."
<A passable answer/response in our times it seems...>
It's been two weeks since I removed said DSB. The fish are spot-free and as healthy as I've ever seen them. The Yellow Tang nibbles on everything green and hairy it sees. I inspect all fish three times a day, and if need be I'll catch them all and re-re-re-quarantine and medicate them.
I think I simply got lucky with the DSB removal. I would never recommend this method to anyone, especially those who have never dealt with ich and its frustrating back-from-the-dead life cycle. I do intend to put back some kind of substrate in the future, but only after I am absolutely confident of the ich being really, really gone, say in two or three month's time.
<I do know of real instances, writers who endorse siphoning bottoms... does/can work>
When can I expect to purchase yours and Mr. Calfo's next installment in the "Natural Marine Aquarium Series" ?
<I wish... maybe next year... if JasonC resurrects our drafts, does the lay-outs...>
Regards,
SLC
The "Ichenator" ( "That's not a Trophont Tumor !!!" )
<Say, would you like to run for governor? BobF>

Longhorn cowfish... Resident Crypt Ping Pong Game   7/10/07
Why hello.
<Hi there>
Just regarding my cowfish.
I have had a flame angel in QT for weeks. Upon adding him to my display tank I think I may have triggered a mild ich outbreak.
<No fun>
I noticed a few nice little spots on my cow also my blue hippo is scratching and seems to have very mild and very few spots himself. The flame angel, banded blenny, Foxface, and clownfish have nothing and aren't acting itchy or anything of this nature. I tried getting the hippo tang (under 2" big) out but as you probably already know this is harder said than done.
<Ah, yes.. I do wonder how folks catch such small Paracanthurus in the wild... they dive in twixt arborose stony corals...>
I easily moved the cowfish into my 20 gal QT. He is acting totally normal but ive seen these guys get really spotty really fast soo..
I have used CFX (copper formalin complex) in the past and it has done its job every time. I am thinking about using small amounts of this on the cowfish. I know they are very sensitive to copper soo I have the test kit and everything already. Can you tell me how much is too much for the cowfish to handle. Bottle says 1 drop to every gallon. Would you recommend using Hyposalinity or... ?
<Mmm, all this is stated over and over on WWM... I would use this material with testing... at the recommended dose likely... as the formalin will be (esp. initially) very transient... the copper part I'd test for, replace when it looks like the residual cupric ion concentration is dropping below 0.20 ppm>
I may NEED to treat the Hippo in the same tank as the cow and I have read somewhere that hippo tangs do not do well with hyposalinity. So I realize these fish have two totally different sensitivities.
<I would not fool with the spg>
Should I leave the hippo in the display tank, the infection is soo mild and I have heard these tangs will attract ich almost every time you clean the tank. I have a cleaner shrimp and also the tang has had ich before really bad and got through it fine in quarantine. I had to rip the tank totally apart to get the guy out. He hides in holes in my live rock so half the time I cant see him to get him out anyways.
What would YOU do in my situation ?
<Mmm, up to you... I have suffered through resistant, resident Crypt situations... and at times bitten proverbial ammo trying to eradicate them... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above till you understand this for yourself>
I know this is soo common but do you think the tang will fight it off. I assure you the tang is VERY hardy, He eats like a pig and is quite fat.
LOL... Also I soak the frozen brine in SeaChem garlic extract and sometimes I feed with non medicated anti - parasitic pellet.
Any advice would help. I would like to wait it out for a couple more days to see if the tang gets worse or better. But if you tell me am stupid for this ill rip my whole tank apart for it. I don't want to infect any of my other fish...
<Mmm, too late... is there, just sub-symptomatic as yet>
but then again they would be staying in the water the ich was in soo there just as likely to extract it also even if the hippo is gone right ?
<Bingo>
Thanks for your time.. Great site!
Jason
<Thank you. Please make use of it. Bob Fenner>

Crypt... att. Bob Fenner 7/6/07
Hello Bob, I have been reading and reading your site and forums for months....I need your expertise...I need a solution to eradicating ich from my display tank...
<You and many others...>
tank: 400 gallon room divider, 80 gallon sump with crushed coral for bio filter, g4x skimmer, Tunze Turbelle 6800, 200lbs live rock,4 inch sand bed,1/2 hp chiller, and have a diatom xl that I run once a week to polish the water.
My ammonia is 0-25 on chart,
nitrites 0 always
nitrates 5-20 were high for months but has been under control for 5 months.
sg 1.024
temp is 79- 80 degrees cont.
ph is buffered once weekly with water change, 100 gallons.
fish: queen angel, imperator, chrysurus, passer angels, pair banded of yellow maroons, 5" lionfish, and 2 leopard sharks which I've had for 2yrs.
<Triakis? Mis-mixed here>
My situation is this, I keep getting ich, and losing beautiful fish that don't deserve to die because of ich..... my imperator, clowns, and sharks have survived it many times...
<Likely some degree of acquired immunity at work here... but also providing a resident host... and infestation>
The sharks don't seem to be bothered by it, and I've been told that they do not get ich?
<Not so>
I have a 200 gallon holding tank in garage, and I make all my own water in a 90 gallon trash can.
<Good>
Please what is the best way of getting this out of my tank, I have been pondering on the idea of removing fish and most live rock and treating them in copper and there main tank as well. I figure that a small tank is an easier way to keep the levels stable. Also is quinine sulfate or HCL any good?
<The latter are worth a try... the Copper is trouble with sharks...>
any assistance would be greatly appreciated, I will pay for your time as I know that you are extremely busy man.....are you in los angeles?
<A bit south... in San Diego>
thank you
Kelly Craven
<You have perused the files here?: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/oscardisfaqs.htm
Down, below the royal blue line? Bob Fenner>

Re: Crypt... att. Bob Fenner  7/7/07
Thank you for the quick response Bob, I know that the sharks and lion fish can't do copper,
<Ahh, suspected so... but need to mention...>
that's where the 200 gallon tank comes into play put them into it with some of the nice live rock and treat the display tank. As for copper type I have Cupramine as I was told its easier to remove and also won't affect filtration media as much?
<Mmm, in many circumstances, yes>
Also are my angels going to survive it?
<Hopefully so!>
Also have you used quinine and is it effective and is it safe for sharks as well?
Thank you again
Kelly craven
<The best (qualified) answer here is "sometimes" it/they (Quinine/one drugs) are effective; are safe. Bob Fenner>

Re: Crypt... att. Bob Fenner – 07/07/07
Thank you again Bob for your time... its appreciated... Well this am I found that my queen was floating sideways at top of tank
<I must not have stressed sufficiently, communicated well from your first message that you NEED/ED to move QUICKLY... as in NOW>
....immediately pulled her out to QT tank
<Not quarantine... treatment>
in garage, she is alive but I don't think shell make it...(I had some green ex the killer as I've read many times to the tank and keeping fingers crossed...
as for sharks and lion this is the plan, I am pulling most of the live rock to 200 gallon tank, with the sharks, I can keep them at 78 in the garage with borrowed chiller
<This is too warm for Triakis continuously...>
.....as for main tank I am planning on dosing it with Cupramine ASAP...need salt for shark tank....It says that Cupramine is effective at .20-.5 being .5 is better....Any thoughts on all of this?
<Yes... you need to READ... use a matched (chelated) test kit...>
I hate losing fish, I get attached to them.......I am also going to turn the temp up on main tank...82-85 degrees.....
talk to you soon
Kelly
<Please... see WWM re the use of Copper, Cryptocaryon, Sharks... NOW. Bob Fenner>

Re: Crypt... att. Bob Fenner... Still not reading...  – 07/07/07
Hello Bob I read the article on sharks, I have been looking for quinine HCl for a week,
<... your animals are suffering... may perish>
with no assistance from any website or LFS....
<See the etailers listed on our Links Pages...>
I was wondering if I removed all fish from main tank and used revive a formalin product
<http://www.fishvet.com/revive.htm... I would NOT use any product that purports to be safe and effective as here... Specious statements abound as you will see/read>
and treated the fish with copper and then treated with quinine from fishfarmacy who is out till the 9th.... would this be an acceptable treatment?
<Not for me>
The reason I ask is that I was told revive is less harmful than Cupramine on bacteria and inverts. but I do intend on treating sharks with quinine. I was at the LFS today and watched him treat main system with Cupramine with smoothhound sharks and they seem to be fine....he does this once a week?
well I really appreciate all or your expert advise....thank you again and the queen is still alive....
Kelly
<... Your livestock have no time for this gesticulating... My opinions, references are posted re this situation... Please, don't write, read... Formulate A plan, with knowledge and execute SOON! Bob Fenner>

Ich... I should have known... and should read re   6/9/07
FIRST... you guys are life savers and I have learned so much from the site... just not fast enough. As with everyone who has had this problem, I have learned my lesson about qt. I have an outbreak of ich on my hands, visible on three fish (clarki, skunk clown and Kole tang, the original culprit). Everyone is eating fine...they are a little skittish though. My problem is that the current tank I call my qt is only a 7 gal nano. My display is 110 g tall. My fish inhabitants beside the three above include 3 Banggai 2 pajama 1 sleeper goby 1 sailfin and 2 Chromis (sailfin is largest at 3.5"). Obviously these guys won't fit. I plan to put the three fish with visible ick in the nano immediately and purchase another, more permanent, qt tank for the remaining.
<... Too late for quarantine... you need a larger (or two) treatment tanks>
Two questions...okay maybe more. What size qt tank do you recommend (based on this list of fish)?
<Two twenty plus gallons... separate the clowns, tangs...>
and what kind of filtration can I get away with (backpack)?
<Posted...>
Now the more important and pressing question regarding the ich treatment. I plan to painstakingly remove the fish and perform 5-10 minute FW dip with methylene blue. Then once in the qt I will treat with cooper.
<Who?>
I understand no acclimation is necessary from dip to qt...however I do plan to use RO/DI water for the FY and my display is like 8.4 ph currently. Do I need to match these somehow? My knowledge on buffers etc is very poor!! Should I wait some time before starting the cooper treatment to alleviate stress caused by dip? Also should I gradually increase temp and decrease salinity or is this too much stress when combined with cooper? Can I dose the tank less with the fish that don't have visible external signs of ich to ensure their survival and then increase in a week or two if I note ich? From reading it sounds like ich come off during the night and just in general and then search for additional host. Should I "vacuum" every morning to catch them? Do you think a pair of stockings, or similar fine netting, used as a filter at the end of a siphon would be small enough to catch the ich? I would also do water changes as necessary...how often though? OKAY that was way more then two...but I DON'T want to lose my poor fish. I will never add another soul without qt'ing first. Wait do fish have souls? okay you don't have to answer that one.
Best regards
Scott L. Davis
<Have just skipped down... this is all covered, along with much needed ancillary information... Read, and soon, on WWM re. Bob Fenner>

Here I go again...Ich. Another Quarantine Convert! – 06/07/07
Hey guys!
<Scott F. your guy tonight...>
I believe my fish have Ich again. I finally got rid of it after months of fighting it. 2 weeks ago, I bought 3 limpets and had done a slow drip acclimation for 2 hours. Every 30 min I dumped 1/2 the water and at the end of 2 hours I placed each limpet in the tank.
<Did you quarantine them first??
Yesterday I was in the LFS and noticed that almost all of the fish had Ich. I thought I saw spots on my clown's tail yesterday, but then 3 hours later they were gone (could be paranoia). Question is this: If the outbreak is not bad should I let their immune system fight it?
<I am a big fan of not rushing off in a frenzy and implementing all sorts of medical procedures unless it's necessary. As you now know, quarantine of EVERYTHING LIVE that goes into your system is pretty much mandatory, and is your first line of defense. In this instance, otherwise healthy fish may be able to resist this infestation without intervention on your part...Notice I said "may"...no guarantees here.>
If their immune system does fight it off does ich stay in the tank or does it die off?
<The causative protozoa does go through a multi-stage life cycle, including a free-swimming stage, and a stage where the cysts lie dormant in the substrate or other location, waiting the opportunity to arise again and seek a host (your fishes). As I like to say, "When it's in your tank, it's IN your tank!" That's why I am a big fan of "fallowing" the system by removing all of the fishes for at least a month, preferably two, in the hope of breaking the life cycle of the causative protozoa by denying them hosts.>
Is it ever possible to bring anymore fish into the tank? Should I get a cleaner shrimp? Should I quarantine it???
<I would hold off on adding anything until you ascertain exactly what's going on here.>
Speaking of which....nothing...not even live rock will touch my tank without 6 weeks in a QT!!!
<Great...A convert! Quarantine should simply become a part of your regular practice, without exception.>
Thanks for letting me cry....this is killing me! Jennifer
<Well, turn that frown upside down! It's not the end of the world. Maybe you did dodge a bullet...Keep a close eye on your system over the next several days, continue your normal husbandry practices, and be prepared to act by removing the affected fishes for treatment elsewhere if required. Read up on the treatment of Ich right here on the WWM site. It's not a fun thing to go through, but it can be defeated with tenacity and effort on your part. And, as you know, it can be prevented with the consistent application of quarantine protocol. Hang in there! I'm sure that things will turn out okay! Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Re: Here I go again...Ich. Watching Out For Ich... - 6/7/07
Thanks for the quick response, Scott!
<You're welcome!>
I've been watching both fish and neither have shown any spots but I've seen them flash occasionally. I've estimated, if indeed this parasite is in here, that it was introduced at least 12 days ago, more like 18. So based on the ich life cycle diagram I have saved (yes, I have studied this thing in detail!) I should be seeing something within the next 2 weeks at the very most. Does that sound about right?
<Umm, for the most part, sounds about right.>
I do have my QT ready to go. I will say while I would never have added a fish without quarantine I have read in quite a few places that the chances of introducing ich via an invert (without the water of course) was equal to live rock or Caulerpa bringing it in. Doesn't matter I'll QT anything!!!!
<Absolutely! Great procedure. When people doubt the need to quarantine, I simply ask them to talk to a professional aquarist at one of the well-known public aquariums, such as Waikiki, The Shedd, etc, and ask them if they place specimens into their systems without quarantine. The answer is always NO!>
Thanks Scott...by the way...algae is looking great and coralline is finally growing.
<Glad to hear that...It just takes a little time, then it really will take off!>
You're the best!!! Jennifer
<Aw...Shucks! Thanks for the kind words! I'm lucky to work with a lot of people here at WWM that are much smarter than I am, but I appreciate the sentiment! Regards, Scott F.>

Watching For Ich (Cont'd.) 6/10/07
Scott, this question just came to me....if the fish are "fighting" the ich will I still see spots on them at all?
<If the causative protozoa is at the phase where it "attaches" to the fish, you will, of course see the spots. On the other hand, a conservative approach would be to assume (gulp- hate to use that word in the hobby, but it fits here) that if you see ANY fish that appear to be infected, the disease is present in your system and steps need to be taken to eradicate it.>
In order for the parasite to continue its' cycle it must find a host so consequently I would have to see spots. I mentioned before I thought I saw a few spots on the clown's tail but a couple hours later they were gone, could that be possible?
<Well, could be that you noticed them just before the free-swimming phase...Or, could have been something else. How do the other fishes look? Are there other signs of the disease?>
According to the article on ich at petform.com by Trevor Jones the minimum amount of time of attachment is 78 hours.
<Sounds about right...>
Sorry to be a little nuts about this...by the way...do you think anyone will ever come up with a legitimate reef safe cure for this nasty pest?
<Don't worry about being overly-cautious- it's a good habit in this hobby! And no, I think it's gonna be extremely difficult-if not impossible to come up with a remedy that attacks only the protozoa and not causing collateral damage to beneficial/desired species. Hence our recommendations to prevent infection via quarantine, and to "fallow" the infected tank while treating the fish elsewhere.>
If they do they'll be rich!
<If you find this treatment- don't forget your pal Scott!!! LOL>
Thank you for your time and patience! Jennifer
<Glad to assist! Regards, Scott F.>

Still Watching For Ich! (Cont'd.) – 06/11/07
Hey Scott,
<Hi there!>
Since the appearance of the 3 hour spots and a couple of scratches nothing else has appeared. The Firefish has shown absolutely no symptoms.
<Very good news...>
I guess I'll keep feeding them their usual food w/ garlic (shrimp scampi to us humans) and wait a few weeks for spots.
<Remember, if you're gonna use garlic as a possible preventative for parasitic diseases, it needs to be fresh...As in "really fresh" for maximum effectiveness. Smash up some fresh garlic and sprinkle the liquidy mash into the food. The substance thought to be effective at prevention is at its peak concentration/effectiveness when freshly drawn, which is why I'd do it this way rather than use a prepared garlic additive. Allez cuisine!>
Thanks for all of your help and support, Scott!...it's good to know someone is out there to support us that you can trust! Jennifer
<Glad to be of service! Hope things work out! Regards, Scott F.>

Re: Ick Update - We're getting there  8/28/07
Bob,
<Tom>
I said I'd give you updates after my last email of depression and desperation, so here goes. Yesterday I did a 20% water change and added what should be the final of the three quinine sulfate treatments. You may recall that we had lost the yellow tang, and the puffer (sadly), we also ended up losing the cleaner wrasse to the ick (honestly, this quite possibly could have been Oodinium.
<Yes>
I saw traits of both. It could very well have been both.) I had verified with National Fish Pharm, during treatment #1, that the QS was also effective against Oodinium if in fact that was in there.
<Yes... is, in fact, my treatment of choice for this Dinoflagellate scourge>
I have no doubt that the freshwater bath helped the Passer Angel tremendously, and as it stands now both he and the shark (and the two damsels) show no signs of either. Wednesday afternoon will be the end of the full treatment cycle, at which time we will do a good observation. NFP says that if you see even one little spot on the fish to retreat another three days.
I still believe the treatment is uncomfortable for the shark. It may not be the medicine itself, but the fact that you cannot run carbon or a skimmer during the treatment.
<You are wise here>
He seems a bit thinner, still has a good appetite, but often will mouth the food and spit it back out. It's unfortunate, but like you said, the tank along with the shark, was infected and had to be treated. He will mouth a piece of formula, spit it out, mouth it again, spit it out, etc. If we can get through two more days and have no signs of infections, then we can get that water quality back up. Any opinion on this?
<? Wait the two days... improve the water quality>
The shark enjoys ghost shrimp from time to time, and the LFS keeps the shrimp in brackish water. I now question everything I put into the tank as far as the possibilities of re-introducing crypt into the system.
<Good>
I have a 20 gallon reef tank that houses a Eiblii Angel,
<Needs more room than this>
a cleaner shrimp, and a chocolate chip starfish. I had ordered a LOT of snails (Obsoleta?) just prior to this ick infection, and I had to dump about 50 snails into this little reef tank (Quinine would have whacked them all). The little angel did have some crypt, probably still does, but the cleaner shrimp seems to keep it under control. To me, and correct me if I am wrong, there is no way to move any of these snails to the main system without too much risk.
<Correct>
I have purchased a 20 gallon to use a quarantine tank (or a treatment tank), but unfortunately there would be no way to let this little reef run w/o fish for any duration, due to a firefish that has gotten back into the built in wet/dry in the back. Trust me, he's there for his life's duration, I have tried and tried to get him out.
Anyway, if this goes as well as I'm thinking (and I am now being optimistic), then all should be normal. As it stands, in the 200 gallon I'll have the shark and the Passer. I would love to add something else, maybe something smaller,
<... again... please restrain yourself from over and mis-stocking...>
or one decent sized fish to add some other color.
First, is that advisable in the tank with these two fish, or do you think it's full?
<The latter>
If it is possible, I'm terrified of tangs now, but if I ever tried again, it would be something like a yellow eyed tang, or possibly one butterfly. Anyway, if you have thoughts on what might be a good selection (if it has the capacity), I'd love to hear it.
BTW, thanks for the encouragement. You kept me going.
Sincerely,
Thomas Roach
<Hold off on all livestock purchases for a month or two... Remember, thou art mortal... BobF>

Re: Ick Update - We're getting there 7/28/07
Oh, yes, you can bet I'm holding off all livestock purchases for a couple of months!!!!!!!!!
<Thank you for this assurance>
Once we get to a normal state of disease freedom, I'll reassess. I think it'd be good to get these guys (hopefully) back to excellent health. I've installed a UV filter now, too, though it can't run till the quinine treatment is done. What I would like to add, honestly, is some nice live rock to reintroduce organisms to the existing rock in the tank that was wiped by the quinine. I've been reading through FAQ, and I'm thinking I need to quarantine LR, too, right?
<Mmm, can be a good idea... but generally not necessary or advised>
I don't mean cure it, if I
buy it from a LFS, but ick/Oodinium could travel with live rock, right?
<Correct... though most all agencies do not mix their LR systems water with livestock display>
And, Oodinium, does it have a longer quarantine time than ick?
<All protozoans about the same period>
So, if I use this 20 gallon just to quarantine some live rock before adding, what do you think is the proper duration? 4 weeks, six maybe?
<Either will be fine>
New rock going into my 200 gallon is going to require passports, customs documents, dog sniffing, cavity searches, racial profiling, you name it before I'm gonna put anything in that darn tank.
<Heeee! Okay! BobF>
Thomas Roach