Treatment of Marine Ich- Which Option Is Best?  4/4/07
Dear Crew,
<Scott F. your Crew member tonight!>
I love the site, and I've learned a great deal from it. I think I've read all the articles and FAQ's on your site regarding ich, formalin, and copper, but I still have some questions. I purchased a Flame Dwarf Angel and a Banggai Cardinal a week ago and put them in a 15 gallon QT. Within a few days, the Flame Angel developed ich.
<Sorry to hear that- but it's great that you embraced a quarantine procedure! As bad as it sounds, it's better to have the fish come down with an illness in the quarantine tank than in your display system.>
I read on your site that flame angels are sensitive to both copper and formalin, but thought the formalin would be the better way to go.
<According to most people, it is. I personally have always used chelated copper remedies with good results in Centropyge Angelfishes. You MUST follow the manufacturer's recommendations for dosage and duration to the letter, and be sure to test the copper levels daily to assure that you are maintaining a correct therapeutic dose. Yes, Centropyge can be sensitive to copper, so I guess I cannot say that I "recommend" it for everyone. However, it has been, and will continue to be my remedy of choice for treatment of Cryptocaryon.>
I put my first dose of formalin in the QT Sunday, and by Monday night, the flame angel was dead (not a good day).
<Sorry to hear that. One of the reasons I like copper is that you can actually test for the concentration, to make sure that you're not overdosing. Nonetheless, many hobbyists use formalin-based products for their treatment of this illness with good results.>
With the Flame Angel gone, am I better switching to non-chelated copper with a copper test, or should I continue with the formalin? It sound like copper may be more effective.
<Well, you saw my thoughts! I'd stick it out with copper, myself, as outlined above.>
Also, I am curing live rock and inadvertently rinse off the live
rock in a bucket I had been using for water changes for the QT tank. Do I most likely have ich on my live rock now? And if so, do I need to leave it fallow in my curing tub for another 6 - 8 weeks like I would need to do for a display tank?
<A good thought on your part! I would definitely keep it in a separate holding container for the period that you mention. You just have to assume that the rock may be hosting a stage of the causative protozoa, and as such, it's too risky to place it in your display tank yet.>
Thanks for your help.
<Glad to be of service! Keep up with your excellent observations and intuitive thinking! It will serve you well in this hobby!>
P.S. I love CMA, but it is starting to get somewhat dated. Does Bob have any plans of coming out with a second edition? I know I would buy it! <<Thank you for this prompting... Have sent your note to James Lawrence/Microcosm... we never even got the "Reef" version of this work into print! Bob Fenner>>
Darren White
Downingtown, PA
<Well...whaddya think, Bob? Regards, Scott F.>
 

Re: Clown ok? Chelated copper... what it be  03/26/07 Bob: <Michael> Photo attached as you requested. <Thank you> I've been surfing through your site, reading other posts. Found the link to posts with the correct way to treat fish. However, I still find the site to be a bit confusing. <I as well... is a (well, for me) monumental task to organize, make this tool more useful/service-able as it unfolds... If you have input re how this resource might be next, better structured, please do speak up> Or is it maybe products & cures that confuse me. <This is assuredly another area of morass... But not due to you or I's lack of diligence... There is exceedingly little science to much of the products sold as "medications" in the ornamental aquatics field... Nowhere are folks made to prove the efficacy of their products, conduct trials for effectiveness. Much of what is sold is outright flim flam> I found and printed your articles Would you please clarify a few things? <Will gladly try> 1. Velvet and ich are treated by copper. <Mmm, much more the latter, though, yes, both are treated by such> I have CopperSafe. The dosage it says to put in the water raises copper levels to about 2.0 PPM. <Yes... this is a chelated product... the active ingredient, the actual cupric ion (Cu++) is liganded/sequestered... temporarily "tied to" another molecule... enabling it to stay in solution longer... Akin to the "tiny time capsules" in some analgesics... to deliver said Copper/Cupric ion over a longer period of time than if the simple ion were applied... Not knowing you at all I am not able to proffer much of a relation... How about the "stabilizer", "conditioner" of swimming pools/spas? Tri-Isocyanuric acid? It serves operationally the same function as the chelation here... keeping chlorine in solution over a longer period of time to keep the water microbe and algal free... Does this make sense?> However, it looks like the recommendation for saltwater is about 0.15 PPM (which is not in the CopperSafe directions). <This is also correct, and equivalent... the first is the "total" copper if you will (as if all the chelation were removed) and the last is the minimum "free" copper (the cupric ion concentration). Understood?> Clownfish do not tolerate copper well. <Correct... as a matter of wanting to be complete... or more so in these statements, all fishes have a sliding range of toxic response to copper... as individuals... per their present health, other environmental factors... Okay?> I only discovered this after dosing the Clown in the quarantine tank following the CopperSafe directions. That was yesterday (3/25) before lunch time. Copper levels were measuring at .25 PPM with my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals test kit. The clownfish wasn't eating and I assumed it was the higher copper levels. Did a partial (about 1-2 gal) water change. Re-measured today. Still registering around .25, so I did about a 50% change (4-5 gal). However, the test kit doesn't go below .25 PPM. <... I would look into having/using another test kit here... One made to test for chelated copper... and test/maintain the sequestered strength at the 2.0 ppm mark (as well)... Wakarimas?> How much copper should I be dosing the fish with exactly? <Per the tests... chelated and/or free... Comprendes?> Is there another product on the market that is designed specifically for saltwater fish and not so potent as Coppersafe? <Mmm, please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptchelcucures.htm All the chelated brands are fine... I have used all...> 2. I picked up on the issue of substrate harboring the protozoans from ich or velvet. I had a small amount of substrate in the tank to help with bacteria. Removed this. Now there's bare bottom with a fine film of dust and broken down food particles. Will this still harbor the disease? <Mmm, can, yes... the copper/cupric ion is really only able to kill the free-swimming stage/s... And the copper does aid in making the fish hosts slough off the attached phase/s... along with elevated temp.... to speed up the development... but siphoning out the bottom, even moving affected fishes is warranted> The clownfish is swimming in circles looking at the bottom of the tank. Is this normal behavior in a glass bottom tank? He still is not eating. <Is to be expected...> 3. For the whole 3 weeks that I had the clown in quarantine, he ate fine and showed no signs of disease. I was running the quarantine at low salinity, 1.012. I ONLY noticed the "dust and dots" on him when I pulled him from quarantine and started acclimating him to the display tank water, which is at 1.022. Is it possible that the film on the fish is from his slime coat reacting to the salinity change, rather than ich or velvet? <Not likely, no... The appearance is almost 100% confirmed... However... the only way to be absolutely sure... Microscopic examination...> I only see it on him now when I look at him up close, it is that fine of a texture. If this disease acts ad fast as I understand it does, shouldn't he be dead by now? <Usually yes... the Copper may have reduced the virulence, population...> It is at least 2 days total that the disease was manifesting itself on him. He was 3 weeks in quarantine. Something doesn't make sense to me with the time frame. He was the only fish in quarantine, no others were introduced. <... Perhaps the reservoir host, situation is in the main system> 4. I also found your information on doing a fresh water dip. Tried this on the clown yesterday and he did not tolerate this at all. <Clowns, fishes that live in close association with invertebrates are frequently intolerant of the same sorts of exposures> As soon as a I put him in the water he was moving about and trying to jump out. As soon as he floated on the bottom of the bucket, I scooped him out & put him back in the quarantine tank. The spots have not grown on the clown and may have diminished a bit, but again the lighting in the quarantine isn't as bright as the display tank. I put different lights on it and can see better though. My apologies for going on about this. It has been on my mind constantly since Saturday night and I've been reading as much as I can. <Good...> Any other suggestions you may have are appreciated. At this point, I know I have to treat the fish and run the quarantine tank. The only way I've gathered to do this is with copper and freshwater dips as needed. Do I have this correct? <I would treat all fishes outside the main tank... allow it to run w/o fish hosts for at least a month... Do please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/amylloodiniumart.htm and consider seeking out the anti-malarial listed... If this is Velvet/Amyloodinium, this compound will be your best shot at an actual cure. Bob Fenner> Thanks. Michael

Copper  - 04/27/06
Dear Mr. Bob Fenner
<Rachel>
Thanks a lot on the last reply. I need a bit more of your valuable help. Do you think that my tank’s beneficial bacteria will adapt to chelated copper and grow over time even though copper is still in the tank?
<Can to some extent, yes>
And also is chelated copper effective to treat a tank because some people say that ionic copper is better?
<Is actually only ionic copper that is much use here. The chelating/sequestering is valuable to keep a ready dosage in solution... put another way, the use of a chelate allows one to place a much larger, slowly-de-chelating concentration in place...>
Why? It’s pretty hard to find a good test kit for chelated copper. Do you know of any good brand that’ll do the job because Seachem test kit didn’t work at all?
<There are several... see/use the Net re>
From the day that I got my Bannerfish it only eats dried worms and the LFS said it’s not that nutritious. I heard that Vitamin C is really good for fish so is it alright if I dip dried worms in Vitamin C and feed it?
<Mmm, marine fishes drink appreciable amounts of their environment... and there are ancillary benefits of adding vitamins directly to the water... This is what I would do here>
Also I got a Vitamin C liquid from a Pharmacy and this certain brand is for little children. Its pure Vitamin C. Do you think it’ll be good for fish? Best regards.
<All Vitamin C molecules are identical, of use>
Rachel
<Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment  2/19/07
Dear Mr. Fenner/James
<Akila>
I purchased a 3” Auriga Butterfly from the LFS yesterday and it’s in my 20G QT now. I have dropped my Gravity to 1.015. Is this gravity suitable to treat the Auriga? The butterfly has not shown any ill effects up to now (tap on wood) but I have not fed him yet.
<Personally, I wouldn't go much below 1.018.>
I also want to treat this QT with chelated copper. This is the only type of copper available at the store. Do you think chelated copper is effective???
<Is effective but not easy to control.  The dosage rate is usually related to tank volume, and if this volume is misjudged, the treatment can be ineffective or dangerously high.
As for butterflies, they have a heightened sensitivity to copper, and long-term use can suppress their immune system making the fish more susceptible to other pathogens, kind of like throwing gas on the fire.  Anyway, I like to use non-chelated copper.  It generally has a half life of about 12 hours, so if the dose was slightly high, it would lower in a short time.  When using non-chelated, it is very important to monitor the level at least twice a day to insure an effective treatment level.  As for butterflies, I'd start with a half dose.  If it were me, I'd order non-chelated copper from your nearest
etailer and overnight it.  Shouldn't cost that much shipping-wise for a small item like that.>
My test kit says it measures Cu+2 what does this +2 mean? The range they have mentioned is 0.25 mg/l to 2.5 mg/l. What is the correct concentration I have to use to treat the QT fish???
<Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cu2+ is the chelated form. <<Mmm, no... there is another molecule tied/liganded to this. Copper sulfate (pentahydrate before dissolution in water... sometimes with addition of citric acid, other solubilizers... CuSO4, is a common formulation... this "breaks down" in basic (high pH) solutions... to yield the cupric ion (Cu++). RMF>> Cu+ would be the non-chelated which also forms a blue, blue/green coloration when mixed with a small amount of water.  So, based on your info, your test kit is measuring chelated copper. <<Mmm... well... chelated copper "breaks down" to be the same ionic copper (Cu++)... over time... per design... neither looks blue unless in high concentration. RMF>> As for dosing,  chelated would be 0.2ppm and ionic, 0.15-0.20 ppm. When using chelated, and treating by water volume, these levels will generally exceed 0.20ppm.>
One last thing, how many times during this 2-week period should I change water and what percentage should I change. FYI I use natural seawater so should I do it frequently?
<I wouldn't do this unless ammonia is detected.  You must also monitor this during treatment. Two-week period?  Treatment should last at least 21 days to ensure the kill of hatching (hatching doesn't sound right??)  cysts, as copper is ineffective to them until then.  Do use any chemical filtration during treatment, as it will absorb the copper from the water.>
Hope to hear from you guys soon and thanks in advance for any advice.
<You're welcome, James (Salty Dog)>
Take care,
Best regards,
Akila

Copper stuff from Bob Goeman's
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005
Hi Bob
Thanks for copying me and "dated" might be a good way to put my thoughts on the use of chelated copper.  However, what bothers me the most about its use is that without a test kit specifically made to test for the ˜brand" chelated copper being used, the average hobbyist is at peril, or more precisely, his wet pets that are being treated are at peril.
<Yes... trouble enough getting folks to test for period>
I know the ionic or slightly complexed stuff is more of an effort in most treatment environments, but if done correctly, there are side benefits, such as it is much easier to remove from solution and will not introduce undesirable chelating agents such as EDTA.
<Agreed>
However, if done correctly, chelated copper can be a better choice.  It's just the initial dosing in relation to water quantity and accurate testing that concerns me.
<We are in agreement on this concern as well>
Will update my thoughts on the subject when and where necessary in future letters to readers.
Cheers
Bob Goemans
<Thank you my friend. Hope to see you about soon. Bob F>

Red Sea Fishes... crypt, copper use
Hi,
<Hello>
Over the past two years I have successfully quarantined around 10 fish.  None of them came down with anything and they are all fine and dandy in my 400 gallon tank.  Then, I purchased a Green bird wrasse and lipstick tang from the Red Sea.
<Okay>
They came down with white spot so I used Cuprazin, a chelated copper treatment.  The white spot went away and came back 3 times. The 3rd time they were completely covered, started to go lopsided and died within 6 hours.
<Successive reproduction of the parasite, weakening of hosts... hyperinfection. Did you use a copper (chelated variety) test kit? You did not maintain a physiological dose of cupric ion>
  My 50 gallon quarantine tank was properly set up with filter material from my main sump.  So, ammonia was 0, nitrite 0, kH 10, ph 8.4.
Everything ok.  And they were eating and swimming well until 3rd hit of whitespot.  Nightmare.  So, 6 months later a Red Sea Asfur Angel catches my eye, so I buy him. Again he gets white spot minutes after going into quarantine,
<Mmm, you do understand your actual system has the Cryptocaryon? It will be there, ready to infest any/all, but mostly new fishes... until eradicated>
same pattern, 3 rd time he's covered and dies the same way after 6 hours.  I'm so upset.  Is the Cuprazin a rubbish product or is there something more deadly with the red sea whitespot?  After the 2nd hit he was so well so I presumed he was better.  This has really put me of buying anymore fish for a long time.
Kind Regards,
James.
<James, you apparently have a generally thorough understanding of marine aquarium keeping, but an incomplete one re marine ich... Do yourself and giant favor and read over the archived materials on WWM re marine parasitic disease en toto, Cryptocaryon... and the use of copper compounds. Bob Fenner>

Copper Test, Cupramine
Hello Bob,
<Scott F. this morning>
I'm starting to treat my 20 gallons SW tank (1 yellow tang with ich) with Cupramine. I added 2 ml of medication per instruction. I'm using Salifert to test for copper level but it shows zero.
<Seachem indicates that an effective therapeutic dose of this product is 0.5ppm>
The tank does have aragonite substrate.
<The manufacturer advises that some copper may fall out of solution in tanks with rock/substrate. Always best to treat in a quarantine/hospital tank with no decor>
My question: Can I use this test kit to test for copper level when treating the tank with Cupramine? If not then would you please recommend me another brand? As always, thank you very much for your help. Dzung.
<I'd actually recommend the SeaChem test kit when using this product. Follow their instructions exactly, and you should be okay! Do consult with Seachem directly if you have other questions/concerns about this product. They are good people and are quite helpful. Good luck!>

Proper Copper? (Using Copper Sulphate Correctly>
Hi, hope you can rescue me again :-)
<Scott F. at the ready!>
First of all , I took your advice and bought a bare tank, transferred my fish to that tank. I've spend $60 buying all the pepper-based anti-parasite products - they all suck sh*t.
<Well said- a bit more colloquial than I might have said here- but accurate, nonetheless!>
I also dosed Mardel CopperSafe as prescribed at 5ml/4gallons.
<I like this product, myself>
Now, I have tons of questions, hope you can help me out :-) Thank you, as always.
<Ready to give it a shot!>
- First of all there seems to be no info on what will be concentration of copper after the recommended dosage... would you happen to know? My local aq. supplier does not carry copper kits :-
<That's a major handicap...I HIGHLY advise that you refrain from using copper without a test kit...If improperly dosed, the results can be fatal>
- Is the copper removed by skimming?
<Not to any significant degree>
- I've heard that ionic copper is better for Ich and Velvet (marine), is that true?
<I have not heard this...>
- How effective is CopperSafe against Brooklynella (Clownfish disease)?
<Not very, IMO. I'd recommend preparations containing Formalin/Malachite Green>
- I'm still not sure if my fish have Ich or Velvet... is there a simple way to distinguish the two?
<Well, "Velvet" (Amyloodinium) has distinctly different symptoms than Ich (Cryptocaryon). Fishes with Velvet will generally fail to feed, exhibit rapid respiration, cloudy-looking fins, and sort of "hang" in the tank, facing current. It's quite easy to distinguish the two...Velvet is far, far more lethal, and time is critical when executing treatment. Both are quite contagious>
- After adding the CopperSafe, when should I expect the white dots to disappear?
<Hard to say, but you'll usually see a radical difference within 48 hours. However, you need to keep copper in the water for about two weeks to really affect a cure>
- Finally, could you please tell me what is the right concentration of the copper so it would be effective in marine bare-bottom tank, against Crypt (Ich) and marine velvet? Everywhere I read is seems to say different... :-( Are there different concentrations for chelated copper and ionic one? Is ppm same as mg/L ?
<Well, Coppersafe is recommended at a concentration of 1.5ppm to 2.0ppm, and Cupramine is recommended at a dosage of 0.5ppm (1ml per 10 gallons). Follow manufacturer's instructions TO THE LETTER when using ANY copper product. Don't "guestimate" or "wing it"...accuracy and testing are vital. To answer your second question- a part per million is equal to a milligram per liter. Just like it sounds, a "part per million" is one part in a million parts of something. One milligram per liter is the same as one part per million when the reference volume is water...>
- How stable is the chelated copper sulfate? I mean after 4 weeks, will the concentration of the copper sulfate (chelated) still be the same as the first day (with skimmer)?
<Well, that's why you need to test constantly when using copper. After every water change, it may be necessary to replenish the copper to keep the level constant, and at the correct therapeutic level. These products are quite stable, if used as directed>
- And the last question... I've heard that formaldehyde/malachite green combo is very effective against Clownfish disease... if one would add this combo to a tank with chelated copper, will formaldehyde/malachite green in any way deactivate or convert chelated copper ?
<I do not know of any interactions between these two substances, but my thinking is that you don't want to mix different meds together. Since copper may not be as effective against Brooklynella as Formalin/Malachite Green, and can actually be damaging to some fish- why use it at all if it is not required>
Huge thanks as always, Luke
<A pleasure, Luke! Good luck in your efforts. Do make use of the many resources on WWM to get more information on these topics. Regards, Scott F>

He's Into Heavy Metal...(Copper Use)
I'm about to start a "Cupramine" Copper treatment. The directions call for a 14 day treatment. Is this the maximum fish should stay in a copper-treated tank?
<Well, I would avoid exposures much longer than 2 weeks, particularly with fishes such as tangs, which can suffer damage to their digestive fauna after long-term exposure>
Can I be absolutely sure the parasites will be gone in 14 days if I siphon the bottom of the tank often?
<Unfortunately, with ich, there are no 100% certainties...I'd say that with a combination of proper copper treatment and siphoning, the odds are certainly in your favor>
I was just wondering if I could dose longer because the display tank has to remain fishless for a month and a half anyway. Also the directions state to leave a concentration of 0.5 mg L. Is this the same as 0.5 ppm, which is the unit of measurement on my Salifert test kit. As always thanks for you help.  Angelo
<Angelo, I'd follow the manufacturer's instructions to the letter when using copper (or any medication, for that matter)...Use the remaining "post-treatment" time to "fatten up" and condition the fishes before their re-introduction. If it's not necessary to continue the treatment after two weeks, I would not subject the fishes to additional stress...Hang in there! You're doing fine! Regards, Scott F>

The Conscientious Marine Aquarist... Copper/test kit use... SW livestk sel.  – 03/09/07
Mr. Fenner,
<Patrick... sorry this has taken a while to respond to... We have something artifactually wrong with our webmail server... and a bunch of incoming (mostly from Apple products) comes in "trayless"... which a few of us here can re-route (through their Apple products)... so's others can respond...>
   First off, my name is Patrick Myer and I have been keeping marine aquaria off and on since 1986.   I recently purchased and completed reading your book “The Conscientious Marine Aquarist” and I just wanted to be the latest to tell you what a fantastic work it is.   
While geared for the new aquarist to beginning reefer, I have taken a  great deal of tips from the book and wish that there was that kind of literature available when I started.   I have had to learn so much of my info thru trial and (lots of) error and could have definitely avoided many of them if I’d read your book first.  I also read your article a few months back in FAMA about Emperor Angels (Pomacanthus imperator) and enjoyed it as well.   I currently have a 4-5 inch specimen that I have a definite kinship with.  I’ve had her (I just decided to label it a she) for nearly a year now and she is doing  superb.  She sure does like to “investigate” things as though she were a toddler.  Again, many thanks for your book and your website.   
You are an absolute, top-notch asset to the hobby and this rock we live on.  It would be a pleasure to meet you one day.
<Thank you for your kind, encouraging words>
   I live in Virginia Beach , VA where I serve as a Lieutenant in the  Navy, and while there are some great folks here that do try in  earnest to do the right things, every system in this town is so infected with Cryptocaryon irritans that I have to copper treat everything.
<Yikes!>
I had a couple losses trying to dose copper effectively until I found a brand and test kit that matched and worked effectively.  I realized and read that there could be some problems with that, but boy did I find out how bad it can be.  I was using SeaCure with a Salifert test kit and the test kit said I had no detectable copper, but when my tang started having seizures, I bought a Red Sea test kit and it read 0.3 ppm!!  I would like to be able to find specimens that can QT and NOT have to always copper treat since it is not a benign drug (as you certainly know).
<Ah, yes>
Can you point me in the direction of some online places that sell good stuff where I might be able to have a chance at not medicating my specimens?
<My faves are the Marine Center and Dr.s Foster & Smith... they seem to have the better suppliers, staff, consistent treatment of livestock... No one can be perfect in the regard to preventing the passing of impaired livestock, but these outfits, as etailers come closest... And I would like to add there are some excellent retailers as well (e.g. AquaTouch in Phoenix), that also "do their duty" in providing adequate quarantine, careful purchasing...>
Any help would be greatly appreciated.  I really want to be a conscientious aquarist.
Sincerely,
Patrick Myer
<Thank you for writing, sharing Patrick. Would you please send along the names... copper brand and test kit, that you found useful? Was it the AS SeaCure (copper sulfate) and Red Sea kit? Bob Fenner>

Copper Treatment  2/19/07
Dear Mr. Fenner/James
<Akila>
I purchased a 3” Auriga Butterfly from the LFS yesterday and it’s in my 20G QT now. I have dropped my Gravity to 1.015. Is this gravity suitable to treat the Auriga? The butterfly has not shown any ill effects up to now (tap on wood) but I have not fed him yet.
<Personally, I wouldn't go much below 1.018.>
I also want to treat this QT with chelated copper. This is the only type of copper available at the store. Do you think chelated copper is effective???
<Is effective but not easy to control.  The dosage rate is usually related to tank volume, and if this volume is misjudged, the treatment can be ineffective or dangerously high.
As for butterflies, they have a heightened sensitivity to copper, and long-term use can suppress their immune system making the fish more susceptible to other pathogens, kind of like throwing gas on the fire.  Anyway, I like to use non-chelated copper.  It generally has a half life of about 12 hours, so if the dose was slightly high, it would lower in a short time.  When using non-chelated, it is very important to monitor the level at least twice a day to insure an effective treatment level.  As for butterflies, I'd start with a half dose.  If it were me, I'd order non-chelated copper from your nearest
etailer and overnight it.  Shouldn't cost that much shipping-wise for a small item like that.>
My test kit says it measures Cu+2 what does this +2 mean? The range they have mentioned is 0.25 mg/l to 2.5 mg/l. What is the correct concentration I have to use to treat the QT fish???
<Bob, correct me if I'm wrong, but the Cu2+ is the chelated form. <<Mmm, no... there is another molecule tied/liganded to this. Copper sulfate (pentahydrate before dissolution in water... sometimes with addition of citric acid, other solubilizers... CuSO4, is a common formulation... this "breaks down" in basic (high pH) solutions... to yield the cupric ion (Cu++). RMF>> Cu+ would be the non-chelated which also forms a blue, blue/green coloration when mixed with a small amount of water.  So, based on your info, your test kit is measuring chelated copper. <<Mmm... well... chelated copper "breaks down" to be the same ionic copper (Cu++)... over time... per design... neither looks blue unless in high concentration. RMF>> As for dosing,  chelated would be 0.2ppm and ionic, 0.15-0.20 ppm. When using chelated, and treating by water volume, these levels will generally exceed 0.20ppm.>
One last thing, how many times during this 2-week period should I change water and what percentage should I change. FYI I use natural seawater so should I do it frequently?
<I wouldn't do this unless ammonia is detected.  You must also monitor this during treatment. Two-week period?  Treatment should last at least 21 days to ensure the kill of hatching (hatching doesn't sound right??)  cysts, as copper is ineffective to them until then.  Do use any chemical filtration during treatment, as it will absorb the copper from the water.>
Hope to hear from you guys soon and thanks in advance for any advice.
<You're welcome, James (Salty Dog)>
Take care,
Best regards,
Akila

Re-infestation of Marine Ich    5/24/06
Hello crew,
<Laurie>
Your website has been invaluable to me, being a new marine aquarist.  I wish I had discovered it before experiencing a 100% fish loss due to Marine Ich about two months ago.  Shortly after the outbreak, all fish were removed from the display tank (110 gallon - fish, live rock and sand, and inverts with the goal of eventually adding corals once lighting and filtration is upgraded).  Unfortunately, I learned that we removed them much too late and they were inadequately treated (no fresh water / methylene blue dip), hence the loss.  The display tank was left fish-free for only six weeks.  I am now reading that three to four months would have been safer.
<Mmm, yes... though six weeks will "do it" for most circumstances>
  I'm afraid this is proving true, as two new fish that were added last week are now showing signs of Ich.
<Rats! You did quarantine these?>
We have a small 10 gallon QT set up, but that won't be large enough to house all of our fish (~55 inches total - 16 fish,
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all peaceful / community).  I think I can quickly set up our empty 29 gallon using some of the biological filter media from the 10 gallon QT.  (That is currently housing a blue-velvet damsel to keep the system cycling.  He is moved to a refugium that hangs in the display tank when we use the 10 gallon QT for quarantining.)
My concern is that I have a large (5") algae blenny and a small diamond watchman goby that I'm afraid will not survive in either QT (neither one has / will have any algae growth, and of course, there will not be any sand substrate).  We lost our original blenny during the first Ich quarantine - but I think due to starvation rather than Ich.
<Very common>
  The goby eats when I feed, but he's very busy sand-sifting all day long. I'm not sure that he'll adjust to the QT with a glass bottom.
<If in good health to start with...>
If I take a chance and leave blenny and goby in the display tank with the invertebrates, and they survive for the three to four month time period without showing symptoms, can I assume that the Ich parasites are gone?
<Uh, no... Definitely not. All fish can act as "space" or reservoir hosts... all need to be removed>
I do have several cleaner shrimps (one skunk, three peppermints, one scarlet).  The skunk cleans the blenny often, but the goby is afraid of it.
If they do survive, and the rest of my gang survives living in the 29 gallon for three to four months, will it ever be safe to add them back to the display tank?
<... All need to be removed, treated>
Your expertise and advice is much appreciated.
With sincere thanks,
Laurie Ostrander
<Do take a re-read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the many files linked above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich, Copper(Safe) use   6/1/06
Hi Bob and Crew,
<Laurie>
Help!  I need your advice again!
It's been a week since our first correspondence and here's what's been done and is going on:
*  All fish caught, dipped and moved to 29 gallon hospital tank on May 24 (we were up until 1 a.m.!)
*  Scott's Fairy Wrasse didn't do too well, but survived (he had spots before dipping).  He seems to have recovered and is now eating and breathing very well.  He had a few spots left; those are now gone, so the parasite is now in its second stage?
<Possibly... you did treat this tank? With?>
*  Bristletooth Tomini Tang died the next afternoon (he had spots before dipping and was breathing with difficulty)
*  Goby jumped out of the tank three times; I was there to rescue him the first two times, but not the last time :^(  He died on May 29.
*  I'm using CopperSafe.  It states that copper test should show 1.5 - 2.0 ppm.  I've found that I need to add more than the dosage documented in the instructions to get up to this level.  I'm using SeaChem test kit.  
<Yes and good>
*  Water is disgustingly cloudy.  I did 1/3 water change two nights ago, with no improvement (and added the appropriate amount of copper and tested to be sure).  
(Tank is running with an AquaClear 70 (sans carbon) and two powerheads - water should be moving at around 700 gph.)
*  Blenny is doing OK.  Thankfully, he is eating Seaweed Selects.
*  Remaining fish are doing well (Banggai and Pajama Cardinalfish and Yellow Candy Hogfish)
<And... you are testing for ammonia, nitrite?>
Here's where I need some advice.  CopperSafe states to treat for 5 - 30 days.  Article says start reducing copper after 2 weeks.  I don't really understand the article, as I read that parasites take 5 - 28 days before swimming to find a host.  As the copper levels are reduced, will it still be an effective parasite killer?
<Mmm, no... needs to be kept at a therapeutic dosage/concentration for the duration of treatment>
I thought not, which is why it's important to keep the correct level of copper??
<Yes>
So, if these were your fish, would you treat full-strength for 30 days, or start reducing after 2 weeks?
<Keep at full-strength>
If reducing, would you reduce via water changes only, or by adding carbon back to the filter?
<Likely just time going by and water changes...>
Thank you.  I really appreciate your help.
Regards,
Laurie O.
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Re-infestation of Marine Ich   5/25/06
Thank you Bob.
<Welcome>
This is an interesting line in the article you highlighted for me:
"Once in a system, the system itself is infested and the only practical means of control becomes providing an optimized and stable environment."
<One point of view>
This sentence is both discouraging and hopeful.
With all the live rock (100 lbs.) and live sand (160 lbs.) in the system, I'm afraid that the parasites will be there forever.
<Possibly>
However, I've already started the process of upgrading my filtration system, so I am hopeful that once I get this current set of fish treated and cured, that the environment in my display tank will be as close to ideal as it can get.
Again, thank you.
Regards,
Laurie Ostrander
<Again, welcome. BobF>
 

Complications arising from treatment for Ich on a Acanthurus achilles   9/1/06
Hi Bob,
<Matt>
Firstly thank you so much for taking the time to read and reply.
About seven weeks ago I purchased an Achilles tang after years of wanting one I finally felt I had the system capable of supporting one.
He initially went into my refugium for a month and proceeded to do very well with no signs of ill health and eating voraciously, after being introduced into the display he showed a few spots for about 10 days before he worsened considerably.
I made the decision to remove him to Hypo at that point. I lowered him to what I thought was 1.009 however later discovered it to be 1.012 due to a faulty hydrometer. Whilst in hypo he degraded into the worst case of Ich I have ever seen. The fish was totally listless and unable to move effectively. I was concerned that I may have a strain resistant to Hypo so decided to administer a half dose of Cupramine.
Within three days all signs of Ich had abated, and with the specific gravity being maintained at 1.010 I decided to replace the carbon and remove the Cupramine. Now five days later the Ich has not returned, respiratory rate is normal.
<Good>
My problem is the fish is still very listless, unable to control his orientation and is not eating.
<Not too surprising>
Could I have somehow poisoned him with Cupramine or would a massive Ich infection cause enough electrolyte imbalance to cause these ongoing symptoms?
<Perhaps a bit of both>
I am at a loss, I don't know whether to slowly raise the salinity once more in the hope that may help or whether to wait it out.
<I would raise the spg... a thousandth per day or so>
It has been about a week now since he last ate and I am concerned that he will become to weak to recover.
<Me too>
Thank you in advance for your reply
Matt
<Life to you my friend. Bob Fenner>