Copper and coral again
I may be crazy, but I thought I was told that if I used CopperSafe in my tank that it was free floating and would NOT absorb into my rock and crushed coral. 
<that is complete crap... whoever told you that was ignorant indeed (as in not-knowing, although I wonder about some of the turnips at LFS I have met)>
Although it would explain why I can't seem to get inverts to do very well in the tank. Tell me I am not crazy and that what I heard was right....I hate to think of trashing 110 lbs. of coral and a ton of my rock. thanks Robert
<sorry, bub... but medication of any kind should NEVER be used in a display tank. That's what quarantine tanks are for, my friend. a proper QT is 4 weeks and the display tank unmedicated runs fallow without a host for the pathogen in the interim. Your rock is "poisoned" by copper. Still not to be wasted... you have choices, The rock can be used in fish tanks or any aquaria where inverts cannot crawl across the stained media. Or... you can use a bunch of poly-filters for months to slowly pick up liberated copper and resist buying any more snails, anemones, corals etc for many months until it all clears up. The rock is still biologically quite useful. best regards, Anthony>

Can you help with ich?
Hope this the right address for Q&A!!!
Hello,
<Hi Vicki>
I have recently discovered what appears to be ich in my 75 g tank (on a Sohal, porcupine, and Klunzinger Wrasse). I tried removing them to a 10 g. quarantine tank treated with Coppersafe (I followed instructions EXACTLY!). My fish were fine for about a day...then WHAM, they all started breathing rapidly, sitting at the bottom of the tank, and looking generally awful. My wrasse was on his last fin, when I decided to get them back into the main tank. All have regained their vigor, but also retained their ich.
<A 10 gallon QT is a little tight for these guys, depending on their size....>
What am I doing wrong?! I already tried Sea Cure Copper for ich on a dwarf angel--same results:(. Again, I was meticulous following those directions! My water tests fine for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate. I am afraid of copper now, and am feeding anti-parasite food/doing freshwater dips to keep the ich at bay. Have also added a UV sterilizer for future problems. I think I'm getting ich-obsessed. Please help me--I don't want to lose another fish! Vicki
<Alright Vicki, you need the copper and more importantly, you need the test kit for the copper you have. PLEASE go to WetWebMedia.com to the copper FAQs http://www.wetwebmedia.com/coppertestfaqs.htm ands read the faq's about the types of tests and the copper they test for.
Maintain the free cupric ion at 0.25 for two weeks and test daily.
DON'T overdose!!!!! I bet you have too much copper. There are a ton of links and FAQs on copper at wetwebmedia. The tests can be had from most of the wetweb commercial sponsors. Craig>

Copper Capers?
Could you please give me a list of fish on which I should never use either hyposalinity or copper medications on? I know some of the larger angelfish, triggers, puffers, and some tangs can take it.  What about butterflies, gobies, blennies, and dwarf angels?
<Well, I am a big fan of copper sulphate as a cure for parasitic diseases, but, as you surmised, not all fishes take it well. Tangs, for example, respond well to copper for short periods, but if they are subjected to prolonged exposure, their digestive fauna can be damaged, which can cause serious health problems down the line. Only expose tangs to copper long enough to affect a cure. In my experience, most butterflies seem to do okay (some don't, however), as do some of the larger blennies and gobies. Dwarf angels, on the other hand, do not always fare so well with copper. Formalin-based medications would be better. If you test for copper concentration, you'll at least have a better picture as to what is going on in your tank>
The reason I am asking is that now that I got the hang of things I am trying harder to keep species such as powder blue tangs and various butterflies and angelfish, I'd hate to kill them using copper.
<A good goal. Of course, as big a fan of copper as I am for treatment, I do not endorse its use on a prophylactic basis. I'd rather use freshwater dips and quarantine...>
And one more thing that I know a whole lot of hobbyists are confused about is the ppm of copper needed to cure some parasites.  Now I know that you guys always say that .8 ppm is the highest any fish can take. But if you look at most of the copper manufacturers directions they suggest 1.5 - 2.5 ppm. You guys always think that the hobbyist has "misplaced" the decimal point but we haven't.  Weird stuff, what do you say?
Thank you Dinesh Patolia
<All very valid points. To make it more confusing, there are kits that measure "free cupric ion", "total copper level", or chelated copper, etc....I have always used Mardel CopperSafe, myself, and have followed the manufacturer's directions to the letter, and it works for me. I guess my point is- always follow the manufacturer's instructions, and ALWAYS test for copper with a kit that measures the type of copper which you are using...For more on copper use, check out this FAQ:  www.wetwebmedia.com/copperfa.htm
Hope this helps! Regards, Scott F>

- Copper in the Main Tank? -
After reviewing all of the postings re: copper, I do have a few questions. If I have a 90-gallon fish-only tank that comes down with ich (lets say 4 of 5 get it), you are suggesting that they all be put in quarantine tanks and treated with copper in there? <Absolutely.> Logistically, is this really possible for the average hobbyist? <My friend, I am an average hobbyist, and I've done this with four or five ten gallon tanks, all purchased for the occasion... it really is your best option. All other options are fraught with problems and potential ineffectiveness.> I don't have another 90-gallon Q tank set up for these occasions so I'm not sure what I would do. <Several smaller tanks are actually easier to manage - less need to chase fish around to catch them for dips, etc.> I had always heard that you have to treat the entire tank if you have ich in your tank or another parasitic disease.
Also, if that is done, won't the parasite continue to live in your main tank, even if the 1 or 2 other fish have not been struck by it? <Our suggested routine is to remove ALL fish, and let the tank run fallow for four to six weeks. A very large percentage of the parasites will perish in time without fish-hosts.> Will it actually live on them and in the substrate and multiply etc? <As long as there are hosts, yes.> And still be there when your other fish return? <Yes.>
I am currently treating my 90-gallon tank with SeaCure after the lone fish I have (miniatus grouper) came down with ich after it had killed a tank mate. Are you saying that the SeaCure will destroy all of my good biological filtration that has built up in my wet/dry trickle? <Yes, and it will also be absorbed by your substrate and rock work, which means the effective dose will be lower than intended, potentially doing your fish no good at all.>
I would appreciate your feedback.
<Cheers, J -- >

- Copper and Scaleless Fish -
WWM : I'm moving all my reef fish into a QT tank to begin a serious treatment for ick. I'm planning on using ionic copper, but I wonder if I should put the scaleless fish like the Firefish, blennies and gobies into a separate tank and treat some other way, such as with malachite green? <Not a bad idea.> Any advice would be most appreciated. <Well... scaleless fish can put up with copper, but likely you need to reduce the dose a tad so that they aren't overly irritated by it.>
Thanks, SLC
<Cheers, J -- >

Feeding Habits W/copper treatment
Mr. Fenner:
I have had to treat my tank with copper due to a fish occurring with parasites. My LFS indicated that my water is probably contaminated with parasites from the infected fish.
<Yes... if the tank itself was not treated with a therapeutic dose for this duration>
He indicated I should treat with copper for two weeks along with Greenex. 
<Mmm, am not a big fan of this product... quite toxic>
I told him I had a lionfish and he indicated it would be okay. Now my blue ribbon eel and lionfish who both ate every other day have not eaten for almost a week.
<Not good... the former fish is exceedingly difficult to keep even w/o disease, treatment problems>
I know my eel can last longer than a week without eating, however, I am concerned with the lionfish.
<It too can go a surprisingly long time w/o food>
Should I stop treatment with copper? My lionfish did show some cloudy eyes indication after the initial fish contacted the parasites. The lionfish eyes seem to have cleared up. I started treatment on 1/7 and treated with copper up until 1/13. I had the copper up to 2.0ppm before I stopped.
<... a few concerns with your statements... you need to treat the fishes for a two week duration... to assure parasite eradication... and follow a known-effective regimen for at least reducing the pathogenicity of the parasites in the main system. And 2.0 ppm of what? Not free cupric ion?...>
Thank you for your assistance on this matter, since I do not want to harm the fish anymore than I might have. Also I would like to obtain new fish in the future and do not want to obtain any till I know my water is okay.
Regards,
Mendy
<Good idea... Please take the time to read through the "Marine Parasitic Disease" section of WetWebMedia.com: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasiti.htm and the many linked FAQs files there... especially re parasitized systems. We'll be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Rocks & coral w/copper?
Hello Dr. Fenner,
<Just Bob please>
Everything I have read seems to say that an effective copper treatment for marine ich/velvet requires removal of rocks & coral (mine are not live). 
<In almost all cases, yes... otherwise the life, chemical nature of the non-living matrix absorbs the copper... and kills a bunch of the life in the process>
A month ago I completed my second 14 day copper treatment @ 25ppm in my 135 gal.
<Mmm, you're missing a decimal point>
Each time I removed everything except about a one inch layer of crushed coral. Without adding any other fish the ich/velvet has returned, my fish get along fine with no stress, but on warmer days my tank's temperature fluctuates a few degrees.
<Whoa! Are you sure you had a continuous physiological dose (free cupric ion concentration) during this interval?>
I said the heck with stripping my tank again and just started the treatment again. 
<Mmm, not a good idea... weakened fishes... from the previous treatment...>
So far after only a few days the disease has seemed to subside. I will treat for at least 14 days. My question is Dr. Fenner, am I likely to be successful in treating with rocks and coral in the tank? 
<No... if these materials, life are present they will take up the copper, be harmed by it (in terms of the living components, organisms) and preclude/prevent the copper from being of sufficient ongoing strength (concentration) to effect a cure. Please read through the many disease, copper use articles and FAQs posted on the Marine Index of WetWebMedia.com>
And would it be advisable to try to push a few extra days on the treatment? In testing the copper levels I have not seen erratic drops or rises in the levels, and also, all of my fish have handled these treatments extremely well.
One other thing please, I regularly feed these fish live ghost shrimp that I keep in a slightly brackish 150 gal tank outdoors. I collect these from a bay by the thousands, could they possibly be transmitting this disease to my fish? The water quality is always very good.
As always, thank you very much for your time and expertise,
Steve Tilotta
<Again, do study the materials posted on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Ich treatment with copper.
Bob,
<Anthony Calfo in your service>
My fish and I have a question. 
<fire away Dr Doolittle... or your piscine spokesfish>
I have a 55 gal FO tank with five fish (a purple Dottyback, yellow tang, Percula clown, golden sleeper goby, and a red-finned fairy wrasse) with a 2-2.5 inch layer of reef sand and no live rock or corals. My fish have come down with Ick. 
<if no new or un-quarantined fish recently, look towards temperature fluctuations (day/night) as a likely culprit>
The yellow tang started dashing and scratching a few days before the spots appeared and periodically the Dottyback scratched on my Fluval return tube. The Dottyback and wrasse developed the tell tale spots of Ick a few days later. Last week, I started treating with Coppersafe directly in my tank since I have to rid both the tank and fish of the Ick. 
<arghhhh... copper is always to be treated in a bare bottomed vessel. Medications such as copper are rendered less effective or ineffective by the buffering action of calcareous media (gravel, sand, rock, coral skeletons, etc). Furthermore, the media is now tainted for future invertebrates...ruined essentially... anemones, starfish, shrimp, etc. can overdose on the absorbed copper in the substrate even when the water tests copper free.>
I also increased my temperature to 84 degrees. I purchased a Kordon chelated copper testing kit and it appears that my copper concentration in my tank is 2 - 2.5 mg/L as the color is hard to determine compared to the testing kit. It is my understanding that the copper only kills the larva of the Ick once they hatch out of the eggs laid at the bottom of the tank. Is this true? 
<essentially>
How long does it take with me treating with Coppersafe for the spots to disappear off of the fish? 
<no guarantee in a tank with sand or rock (more freq copper and tests are need daily to keep levels therapeutic because sand and rock keep absorbing it further...eeek! In a bare bottomed aquarium, common Ich can be cured simply by siphoning the tomites/larvae off of the bottom for eight consecutive days. Ich cure that simple>
I thought they would be gone but when I get close to the tank I see possibly 50-100 spots on my wrasse even though he is swimming in 2-2.5 ppm of copper?
<assumedly you mean .25 ppm copper as over .3 is fatal to many species. Each spot can drop and develop a couple of hundred cysts as well! No wonder it spreads so fast!>
Is this normal? I have read that the eggs can lie at the bottom of the tank for up to twenty-two days before they hatch but the Coppersafe says to treat for only 14 days. 
<a lot of unproven theory here... I took a fish pathology course by some of the worlds leading pathologists at the University of Georgia (Blasiola/Gratzek). Copper should be treated for 21 days if unassisted by water changes in a bare bottomed vessel ro freshwater dips>
If I remove the copper after fourteen days, cant the eggs hatch and the free swimming Ick reattach to my fish? Should I treat for fourteen days after all the spots disappear or from the date I put in the Coppersafe? I read on WetWebMedia that the copper has attached to my substrate. Will I have to replace all of my sand or just the top layer?
<all sand and rock removed if you want to keep inverts later (anemones, starfish, shrimp). If fish only, you may leave it. A quarantine tank would be cheaper for future reference...do research equipment and protocol on this topic>
Thanks for your help as I am freaking out over this Ick outbreak. It seems the more I read, the more I get confused and this is why I wrote so many questions. I don't want to lose anybody to Ick or worst yet, kill them myself by poisoning them! Thank, Ray
<best of luck Ray... do invest and use a QT tank for all new and sick fishes. 4 weeks is safest in QT. Anthony>