Re: Cupric ion soln's... comm. and DIY     2/1/14
Thank you Bob.  One more question I'm hoping you can answer for me.  I went to re-order the copper sulfate solution I've been using for the last 6+ months and the wholesaler is out of stock.  I currently have three bottles of what I think are all ionic copper.  I ordered two new bottles of solution from different manufactures.  Can you please let me know if these
other two brands are all ok to use?  For clarification I am getting confused by their labeling on the three different brands of what I thought were all the same thing... ionic copper.
<You can make yourself... easy to do... CuSO4 pentahydrate, citric acid and water...>
The first (currently been using for 6 months+) is called Salt Made Easy made in-house from a fish wholesaler (A&M Aquatics) that the label simply says is Copper Sulfate...Directions say...Prophylactic level: dosage 1 drop/gallon until concentration equals 0.1 mg/l.  Treatment level 0.2 mg/l...1 drop/gallon until concentration equals 0.2 mg/l. 
<Ok>
They are out of stock at the moment so I cannot order anymore but this is what I have been using currently in my fish only system with my UV and Ozone.
<... both these will rapidly remove Cu++>
The second bottle is Brightwell Aquatics Cuprion, Ionic Copper for Professional Use.  Ionic, non-chelated copper solution. Cuprion has been formulated to increase concentration of ionic copper by .20 ppm for each drop administered to 1 gallon of water.  Label says... Guaranteed Analysis:
Copper(min) 15,140pmm.  Ingredients...purified water, copper sulfate, stabilizing agents.
<So?>
The third bottle is National Fish Pharmaceuticals professional grade Liquid Copper Sulfate (Sequestered).  Directions: 1 drop of Copper Sulfate/gallon.
  5 ml/100gallons.  Dose 1 time only =15ppm.  Run your copper levels between 15-20ppm.  Later on in labels says "do not use this product with UV sterilizers or ozone..."
<Yes; an honest statement>
And they list this link on their website...http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/Q&A...ut_copper.html   regarding the "sequestered" labeling.
Any help you could give me on clarifying which to use would be great.
Thanks as always,
Craig
<I'd use the sequestered... will stay in solution longer. Bob Fenner>
Re: copper sulfate, MIY soln      2/6/14
Bob,
I would like to continue running the UV and ozone while dosing the copper sulfate.
<You can; but again; it (the CuSO4) will drop out of solution more quickly, and it will coat your UV lamp/s, sleeves...>
  I realize that the copper will need to be replenished daily but I like the clarification/sterilization the UV and ozone provide to my water.   I do have the formula (from Noga's book on Fish Disease) and a gram scale to mix and measure copper sulfate crystals with distilled water resulting in a 1% solution.
<Good>
  Do you happen to recall what the old Aquarium Systems SeaCure formulation percentage was?  I want to say around 3.7% copper sulfate???
<Yes; this is what I recall as well>
 I am trying to make a gallon of copper solution that will increase my copper level by .10 per drop/gallon. 
<Yes; a stock solution>
Thanks as always,
Craig
<Welcome. BobF>
Re: copper sulfate. Making your own stock solutions of non-chelate       2/12/14
Bob,
This is the formula I have from Noga's book on Fish Diseases...
Dosages
                                       A stock solution is prepared using 1 gram of copper sulphate (CuSO4.5H2O)  to 250 mls distilled water. This solution now contains 1 mg copper per  millilitre. The initial dose is 0.15 mg copper per litre. Therefore if  the tank contains say 200 litres then the dose required will be 200 x  0.15 mgs copper = 30 grams = 30 mls of stock solution.
                                       The  copper level of the tank should be measured immediately and thereafter  twice daily using a test-kit that measures in increments of at least  0.05 mg/litre. If the residual copper level in the tank drops below 0.15  mg/litre - then add additional doses of 0/05 mg/ litre of the stock  solution until the optimum level is restored.
Using the same example 200  x 0.05 mgs copper = 10 mgs copper = 10 mls stock solution
                                       Copper can easily be removed by
activated carbon.
Useful conversions are:
                                                   ppm = mg/litre          
 i.e.  5 ppm = 5 mg / litre
                                                   mg / litre  x 3.785 = mg
/ gall (US)           i.e.  5 mg / litre = 18.9 mg / gall (US)
                                                   mg/ litre x 4.546 = mg /
gall (UK)            i.e.  5 mg / litre = 22.7 mg / gall (UK)
                                                   To convert imperial
gallons to US gallons multiply by 1.2

                                                   Other useful figures: 
                                                   1 ounce = 28.35 grams

                                                   1% solution =           
                                               10 ml per litre
                                                       10 gram per litre
                                                       38 gram per gall 
(US) 
                                                       45 gram per gall
(UK)    

Does this look right to you?  38 grams of Copper Sulfate to 1/gallon distilled water for 1% stock solution.
<Yes... for CuSO4 Pentahydrate starting>
 There is no citric acid crystals included in this formula.  Does the one you mentioned in our earlier email conversations include the citric acid?
<Mmm, not necessarily... I would mix in ten grams of Citric myself... helps to keep the Cupric ion in solution (in the stock solution)>
  Noga's formula is the only one I can find for ionic copper sulfate. If you have a different one that is better suited could you please pass along to me if possible.  I was under the impression that including citric acid made the solution a chelated version?
~Craig
<Ahh; not a chelate... NOT liganded, attached to the copper at all really; just suspended in solution. Bob Fenner>

Re: Re: Re: copper sulfate     2/13/14
Thank you Bob.  I plan to make a 4% stock solution in a gallon of distilled water.  The formula calls for 38grams/gallon of copper sulfate = 1% solution.   So for my 4% stock solution I will add 4 x 38grams = 152 grams. 
<Mmm, don't recall... the solubility... product constant, but this amount/concentration might not work... i.e. the Copper sulfate pentahydrate may not go into solution this high... >
 When adding the 10 grams citric acid powder is that 10 grams to each 38 grams of copper sulfate crystal used or 10 grams in total no matter how much copper sulfate crystal is used?
<About ten grams per the 38>
 If I am understanding your directions correctly, to make a 4% stock solution in a gallon of distilled water, I will add 152 grams copper sulfate and 40 grams citric acid to make 1 gallon ionic copper sulfate stock solution at 4%.
<Again; you may have to dilute this; or add a bit more citric. At any length, I WOULD shake the bottle before measuring out to administer and FOR SURE monitor the system free cupric ion concentration... Likely testing twice or more daily.
Bob Fenner>
Re: Re: Re: Re: copper sulfate     2/13/14
Will do...I am trying to replicate the old Aquarium Systems SeaCure Copper solution which I believe was around 3.7% stock solution.  As always I thank you kindly for all your help and guidance.
~Craig
<Certainly welcome. B>