Powder Blue Tang Ick, no rdg.   4/13/12
Hello Crew
<Dev>
 I purchased a rather small Powder Blue Tang, only about 3".
<Mmm, smaller than I'd start w/>
 I know that this size is generally not recommended, but he appeared alert, healthy and was eating. I paid for him and had the store hold him for three days prior to picking him up. Once home, he went in my 45 gallon quarantine tank. On day two he developed what appeared to be ick on his fins.
<Very common>
 I removed the carbon pads from my filter, and started treating with CopperSafe.
<Acanthurids-oids don't "like" copper exposure. Other treatment means are preferable, gone over on WWM>
 He is still acting normally, nibbling at seaweed strips and small amounts of Mysis shrimp. Treatment started 48 hours ago. Water temp is 78, PH 8.2, salinity 32, spec grav 1.024, nitrates 10ppm.. I removed the carbon pads from my filter, and started treating with CopperSafe. He is still acting normally, nibbling at seaweed strips and small amounts of Mysis shrimp.
Treatment started 48 hours ago. Water temp is 78, PH 8.2, salinity 32, spec grav 1.024, nitrates 10ppm.
<Mmm, keyed twice, or copied...>
 Is copper the wrong medicine to treat with? If so what do you recommend?
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/PBTDisFAQ2.htm
and... the linked files above>
How often and how much water should I change to control water quality?
<Also covered>
 Will the two pieces of live rock in the tank have to be discarded after the treatment? How long does this usually take to run its course?
<... not necessarily, and perhaps a couple weeks to forever>
 Assuming I am lucky and actually save this fish, should I keep him in the quarantine tank for approximately 3 to 6 months
<Will surely perish t/here>
 until my 180 setup is ready for him, or move him to my existing 55 gallon FOWLR with a percula clown and 3" Heni butterfly fish? The 55 has been up and running for a few years with hermits, snails, coral banded shrimp and green Mithrax crab. Thank you for your help.
<Better to look before you leap... Look to quinine compounds... moving this animal through a dip/bath procedure. Bob Fenner>

Specific Ich Opinion; Crypt rdg.      3/14/12
Hey WWM.  I'm sure you are delighted to hear that I am having an Ich dilemma and need your trusty advise on how to go about this.  I read your Marine Ich article as well as some other research, and found it quite resourceful, but just want you to verify how I should go about treating my Ich.  My clownfish has had what I am 99% sure to be Ich for about 10 days now.  I, stupidly, have done nothing about it, so I hope it is not too late as the white bumps don't look nearly severe as I have seen in other fish, and he is continuing normal behavioral/breathing/eating habits.  He also has never scratched on the rocks or sand (at least that I've seen).  I would have moved him straight into my QT but am a bit nervous about it seeing as the first and last fish I put in there died in less than 24 hours even though he seemed perfectly healthy and all parameters tested normal. 
I assume I have to put him in the QT despite this?  Also, he and a Tailspot Blenny are the sole fish in my 29 gallon, and the Tailspot shows no signs of Ich.  Do I need to QT him too?
<... all fishes should be treated, or none. Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above>
  In the same tank?  Is there any particular medication you would recommend or is there something I should be looking for in a medication before I buy from a fish store?
<Quinine compounds... search, read re on WWM>
 What do I need to know before I begin treating?
<Reading...>
  Is treating completely necessary?
<Mmm, no...>
 What advice would you give?  Do you need any other information?  Thanks so much!
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Re: Marine Ich Challenges in a large Aquarium  2/16/12
Thanks Bob,
<Welcome Brand>
I just wanted to reiterate my appreciation for your insight and candor.  I also appreciate the service you and your team does for the greater community; and of course, I'm a huge fan of your book.  I really love this hobby and want to get everyone well.
<Ahh!>
 I'll discuss your recommendations with my LFS team and keep you posted.  As I mentioned I have been reading through the forums, just sometimes you feel your situation is a bit unique and while I had seen lots of posts on Ich, UV, and Ozone, just wanted to bounce this off of you for your guidance.
<I understand>
As a side question, in the forums it seems that you are in the camp that Ich never really goes away completely, just goes dormant, and hopefully your fish have built up a good resistance when it comes back?
<Mmm, not altogether... I have seen SPF (Specific Pathogen Free) systems, and of course their livestock; but hobby systems are almost always to a degree infested... My fave petfish talk: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
  In the future, assuming that I do a full QT on all of my new additions, is there still a high risk of infection for any new fish after QT when they are introduced into the new tank?
<Not "too" high, given optimization, stability of the system, life there...>
 Anything you can do to mitigate the risk beyond QT?
<Oh, many "things"... all gone over and over as maintenance aspects... Do read the above citation>
 I just want to make sure I do everything I can to not repeat this ever again.
Thanks again for all of your help!
Brad
<Cheers, BobF>
Re: Marine Ich Challenges in a large Aquarium, parasitic sys. f'    2/8/12
Hi Bob,
<Brad>
Wanted to give you an update and request a bit more of your insight.  So after we last spoke three weeks ago, I decided that I was going to try to catch/trap as many fish as I could out of my tank and QT them, but I couldn't bring myself to totally tear down the tank.
<All fishes/hosts must be removed... otherwise act as reservoirs>
 At that time, almost all fish had Ich including my tangs, clownfish, wrasse, Chromis, Anthias, cardinals &c.  I turned off my Ozone, but added the 80w UV to the display tank. 
Since then, I've made some really good progress.  Obviously all of the fish I treated in the QT are looking good. The fish in the main tank have really pulled through (what I couldn't catch.)  I don't see any Ich on any of the wrasse, cardinals, Anthias, or Chromis in the display tank (very different from 3 weeks ago) and the tangs look much much better now.  I can still see a few spots on two of the tangs, but it's drastically reduced, and none of the fish are scratching on the rocks or seem otherwise stressed at all.  All of the parameters (including monitoring the ORP) are looking good.
So, thinking forward here. 
1, When can I reintroduce the fish I have in the QT into the display tank?
<Any time... but/though the Crypt will reappear if/when the environment degrades, the fishes are otherwise challenged, very likely if/when any new are added. Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
and the linked files above... Till/do you understand the sort of balance you're faced with?>
Aka how much longer should I wait either in time or condition before I start to reintroduce fish?
2, is there a particular order of fish you'd introduce, or a particular number at a time?
<No.>
3, I'm particularly concerned about my tangs because even though they did live with each other prior to the outbreak, I'm afraid that the ones I reintroduce from the QT might face aggression from the ones I left in the main tank.
<Such animals should go elsewhere>
 I don't think I can take them all out or rearrange the rockwork.
One idea I had was to put the ones from the QT tank into plastic cages (with tons of holes drilled) in the main tank when it is the right time to introduce them so that the tangs in the main tank 1, won't be able to hurt them right off the bat, 2, they will be able to get acclimated to them and hopefully won't get aggressive.  If you think that's the way to go, how long would you leave them in those tanks?
<Keep reading>
Two other side questions.  Do you believe that Ozone can deteriorate a fish's slime coat (assuming the ORP is 350-400 mv, all other levels are at optimum values)?
<Much more likely to improve health at these levels>
 Prior to putting the fish back into the display tank, is there any type of slime coat treatments like StressGuard that you would recommend? 
<Of no use whatsoever>
My LFS recommended that I catch the fish with a small bucket from the QT and put it into the DT rather than netting them because it could hurt their slime coat and make them more vulnerable.  Got me thinking if there was anything else I could do to help the fish better transfer.
<In the end, whatever, whenever (time is as fast as the slowest thing... an important stmt.) that is, it matters naught>
Again I greatly appreciate you insight!  I don't want to rush things, but also looking forward to getting everyone situated.
Thanks!
Brad
<... You had your chance, still do, to weaken the Crypt further... at this junction, are you willing to take the parasitized system challenge? Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the.... B>

treatment choice, Crypt, rdg.      2/15/12
Dear Crew,
It looks like I am having new outbreak of white spot in my fish only system (+ 1crab which could be relocated if really had to).
It€™s not very serious yet but don€™t want it to get worse. I am hesitant between using copper or hyper salinity.
I€™ve tried hyper salinity once in the past without good result (maybe because I was frightened to lower SG value enough and for long enough. Keeping 0.010 for 6 weeks seemed to be a bit extreme). In the end I€™ve used copper which sorted the problem out.
Which method is more stressful for fish in your opinion? I do realise that the copper is toxic but are fish really designed to sustain low salinity without impact on their health?
I would greatly appreciate your help once again.
Kind regards
Daria
<... this is all gone over and over on WWM. Search and read before writing us... or just start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
scroll down... Bob Fenner> 

Ich question, Crypt sys. f'    1/26/12
Hello Crew,
I am currently treating my fish for Ich (not the different part of the question). The display is running empty with just the inverts in it. My question is about these inverts. I have some coral frags that I have been holding for a friend. Since my system cannot accommodate them for an extended period, I need to get them back to him for fear of losing them.
<Yikes... I'd be searching for another aquarist, perhaps a shop to hold these in the while>
 I already find a few frags that are in need of more suitable conditions that my tank cannot provide. I assume doing so is risking his system as well?
<? Don't know what it is you're referring to here... That trying to provide these conditions might endanger your other livestock?>
Would the frag possibly carry Ich over to his tank?
<Oh yes... anything wet can/may>
I realise that they cannot be infected <infested... infections deal w/ lower life forms> but that the associated water may well be a carrier. If so, is there any way to dip/treat them to prevent this?
<Not practically, no>
Any advise <advice> on the above would be very useful. I currently dip all coral in CoralRX prior to adding to the system but imagine that since this treatment is directed at coral pests it may or may not have any impact on Ich.
<Not much, no>
System detail:
75 gallon reef
SG 1.025
pH 8.1 (night), 8.3 (day)
calcium 420
Magnesium 1290
Alk 9
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 15
Phosphates 0.1
Regards,
Paul
<I do so wish you and I could do some version of a/the "Vulcan mind-meld" Paul... much (too much) to mention re your possibilities here. What do you intend to actually treat these fishes, system w/? Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: Ich question    1/26/12
Wow that was quick! Wasn't expecting a response till much later so thanks for that. I suspected as much but thought I would ask the experts.
<But you'll settle for us just the same!>
As for treating the fish, I currently have the 4 fish (yellow tang, sifter goby, Royal gramma and percula) in a 30 gallon QT and am treating with copper. About 10 days into the treatment and all seems well so far. Have a bit of experience with Ich from my early days in the hobby (so many dead fish, so many busted tanks....so many bottles of rum to drown my sorrows!)
so am quite confident of managing it.
<Ok>
The coral on the other hand, I am seriously concerned that it will not make
it through. The main system is heavily stocked with primarily Mussids.
<Winners in the chemical allelopathy game by and large>
I have not had a single issue with this reef in the last 4 years until this temporary coral came into the tank. Suspect it brought Ich with it and now I know better. Unfortunately, I would feel just wrong about exposing an LFS or fellow aquarist to possible infection so will likely pay my mate for his frags and see what survives 8 weeks from now. I did think of an alternative
and would love your thoughts. I can setup a small 10 gallon tank for the frags.
<IF they'll fit...>
I could use system water to start with and slowly over the course of 2 weeks (daily 10% changes) separate the frags out. I figure this is a better solution than letting them go in my current display. Would you agree?
<Mmm, don't know... as I can't see the frags, what you're writing about>
 I would have a lighting issue to address but need to weight the odds between chemical war and poor lighting. Which do you think is worse?
<Can't tell Paul; really>
Cheers,
Paul
<And you, BobF>

Cryptocaryon Outbreak/Mandarin QT question  12/9/11
Hey
Crew. Thanks for the great site with a wealth of information. I have attempted to do my research ahead of time regarding my question, but still am somewhat uncertain how to proceed with my problem. I recently added a Yellow Tang and Royal Gramma to my reef tank.
<Mmm, for our outside viewers... w/o dipping/bathing, quarantine>
They both appear to have an outbreak of Marine Ich. I also have a Flame Hawk and ORA Target Mandarin.
<Sensitive to chemical treatments>
The Mandarin and Hawk are showing no physical signs of Ich.
<Typical... very slimy... still carriers, infested>
All fish are still eating well. The Royal Gramma has periods of flashing that come and go. My question is regarding QT.
<Too late for that>
I know conventional wisdom is to QT and treat all fish, and leave the tank fallow for 4-6 weeks. My concern is the risk of QT for the Mandarin. He eats all day on live rock. He does take prepared food also (blood worms and Spirulina-enhanced brine). I have read that it is more difficult for both Mandarins and Flame Hawks to get Ich, but it seems they still can get Ich and at minimum be carriers. So do I remove all fish, treat with hyposalinity, and keep the tank fallow for approximately 6 weeks?
<Is one approach>
Do I leave the tank as is and hope the infected fish fight it off?
<Another>
 Do I remove the Tang and Gramma only? Do I remove the Tang, Gramma, and Hawk only? If I don't remove all fish isn't there a high likelihood that Ich remains in my system indefinitely?
<Yes>
 I feel these are very difficult questions because presently the Target Mandarin is doing so well and the QT process may do more harm than good to this fish. Any insights into my dilemma are greatly appreciated. Thanks. Anthony.
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked files above... until you understand your options more clearly. Bob Fenner>

Was: Re: Stocking list , opinions please? Now: QS failed Crypt treatment  11/14/11
Hello again Crew,
<R>
Bad news, we broke out the champagne too early: the tang suddenly broke out in Ich (visible) again two weeks after I sent you this message (still in QT). I tried a repeat treatment of the Quinine same as last time but at day 5 of this dose she is still covered and scratching/flashing constantly.
I have a nasty suspicion that the quinine has actually not worked at all, and all I have observed in reality is the Theronts leaving the fish to infest the substrate. Because there were no tomites in the water already, being a freshly setup QT tank, there would have been nothing to re-infect her for a week or so until the new tomonts hatched and re-infected her.. I think this may be what has happened.
<Does appear so>
Now at day 5 of the second quinine treatment I'm seeing no change like last time , re-enforcing my theory. I'm really bummed.
<Time to switch to another treatment mode... CP or chelated copper, the last perhaps along w/ reduced SPG>
I've put a UV steriliser on today (36W) to fry the tank a bit before I do a water change and hit with a third 5 day 30mg/L dose of quinine (without UV of course). I've also begun slowly dropping the salinity in case I need to go down that path instead. Just a couple of questions if I may?
<Sure>
Do you think I should:
a. Do a 25% water change, hit with third quinine dose, Lower the salinity to 1.015 (as per CMA) over the next few days?
<Mmm>
b. Do a 25% water change and lower the salinity to 1.015 over the next few days - forget the quinine?
<Am more inclined toward (b) so far...>
c. Do a 25% water change and hit with a dose of quinine again - leave the salinity?
d. Start drawing on some more of my chemical arsenal and try copper and nitromidazole?
<The Copper (chelated product) and lowered SPG are my choice>
Appreciate your help
Cheers,
Rama
<And you your patience, sharing. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Stocking list , opinions please? QS failure, Crypt f's    11/15/11
Hi Bob,
<Rama>
Appreciate your advice/time,
<Welcome>
I thought it was generally advised against to use copper with hyposalinity due to copper being more toxic at lower SPG?
<To extents yes>
I've started lowering the SPG further anyway, but many (e.g. Steven Pro et al) seem to think that 1.012 is a more appropriate level than 1.015, some even advocate as low as 1.008?.
<Yes; my lower limit is 1.010>
I'm currently shooting for the 1.012 as a compromise as I only have the glass bulb hydrometer so accuracy is not pin point
Do you think it would be dangerous to dose quinine or Metronidazole/Praziquantel at the same time as the low SPG?
<I do not; unless the fishes are badly compromised...>
Really nervous of copper use , my Cu test kit sucks as far as I'm concerned with the colour gradients being all shades of vague copper colours I can barely discern and huge differences between them. I managed to kill the last fish I tried to cure with copper, but this was combined with a temperature spike to 29 degrees C on a particular hot day, so not sure which killed it, Cu, heat , the Ich or most probably the stress of all three at once.
<I don't know either. Copper is dangerous, no doubt... and maintaining useful concentrations in marine settings is difficult... Less than 0.15-0.20 is of no use; more than 0.35 often deadly>
At the moment I'm leaning towards hitting it with another dose of quinine,
<Do please read here... re warning signs, incidents w/ QS, my urgings to use CP instead: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinTrbFixF.htm
and the linked files above>
Hyposalinity and trying to feed Nori and Mysids soaked with Jungle Internal Parasite Guard (Metronidazole, Praziquantel and salt) and Seachem reef fuel. This Jungle product is directed to add to the water , but I have read that these are only effective if ingested and I have no idea how to dose this stuff for feeding as it is compounded for adding directly to the water
(5g/20L) .
Do you have any knowledge of this product and how I might dose it orally?
<Not enough, no; thankfully marine organisms "drink" their environment (more than fresh)>
(for the fish that is.. not me ;-) )
<Heeee!>
Should I try just adding it to the water?
<Yes I would>
Last thing, I DID feed the fish live brine shrimp, and have read that these are possible carriers for Ich. Any thoughts on this as the cause of re-infection?
<Can be a source... Hence my usual suggestion to soak all in freshwater for several minutes before offering>
Thanks for the continued support ,
Cheers,
Rama
<And you for your further shared intelligence and related experience.
BobF>
Re: Crypt, QS failure  11/17/11
Hi Again,
Sorry to drag you so far through the saga, but I think this Ich incident might have finally driven me round the twist and I need an independent view point:
<Glad to provide it/this>
Today, all the visible Ich signs have gone again except for scarring/scratch marks, and I have only got as far as lowering the SPG to 1.015 at this point! Three days ago I'm sure the fish was covered!
<Mmm, may well have simply "cycled off" the host fishes... as you're familiar w/ this parasite's life cycle...>
This, in combination with a 36 w UV running
<Mmm, do remind me: you did have the UV off while treating w/ the QS right?>
at 450lph,24hrs daily for four days on an 85L tank with substrate/ornament removal and re-placement (plastic bases/pvc etc.) every second day is the only thing I've done since
the second Quinine dose failed to clear up the Ich. What is going on?
<Sounds like "bad" Quinine... or the UV, or?>
Could I have misdiagnosed the second outbreak and it was actually Amyloodinium/Scar tissue/secondary infection et al?
<Doubtful>
This time there had to be plenty of all life stages in the tank, so can't be just the normal ICH peek-a-boo cycle again yeh?
<Maybe not plenty of life stages... could be largely/only one>
I wondered if perhaps the residual Quinine has acted a bit late on the fish this time (8 days effect, after dosing with a 30% water change at day 5), or if I was just seeing the spots etc. long after the parasite was gone,..... or if the substrate removal and UV is really being so effective (with a modestly low SPG)?
<Let's hope for this last>
it's doing my head in trying to work out what I'm seeing.
I don't know whether to just sit and watch (default position for now) or hit it with another Quinine and/or Metronidazole/Praziquantel dose just to be sure.
<Mmm, I'd at least continue to lower the Spg>
I find it hard to believe the Ich has just up and vanished from the little extra I've done, so I'm scared there will be a third sudden relapse, what do you think I should do: wait or treat further?
<See above>
Also if I do treat with Quinine and/or Metronidazole/Praziquantel at 1.014 SPG do you think I should halve the dose I've used for typical NSW?
<Mmm, I'd treat at near full dose, but keep a close eye on your fishes>
Cheers,
Rama
<And you, BobF>
Re: Crypt, QS failure   11/17/11
Thank Bob,
Yes I had the UV off while treating (and actually only have a low 9w light above the tank in a dark room as well to avoid denaturing the quinine (only just enough to see by )
<Well, "a swing and a miss">
I usually have to check the fish with a torch.
I'm going to try the stubborn approach and hit with a third dose of Quinine today. I think I'll leave the Metronidazole as a follow up to this after a water change as I don't want to stress the fish more than absolutely necessary. Will let you know the results
Thanks for the help
Cheers,
Rama
<Welcome R. B>

Something is horribly wrong! Please advise!   Crypt, hypo... trouble  11/4/11
Hello Bob and Crew at WWM,
I am sad to say that I've got Crypt...again. I believe that I introduced it by not quarantining my ROCKs long enough. I had them quarantined for 12 days during which I did three water changes. I think if I just stand out in a lightening storm, I would have the luck of being stricken and I would deserve it! Since my last bout with Crypt, I have religiously quarantined my fishes, corals, clean up crew for at least a month if not longer. I blame myself for trusting my LFS that the rocks are "clean"...
I am ten days into hyposalinity, and in my seventh day at 1.008 or 10 ppt.
My pH is stabilized with bicarbonate at 7.95 which is where it normally hangs around at without supplementation at 30 ppt... It is a 225 gallon with a 13 gallon fuge and 13 gallon sump. I've been doing at least 40 gallons of water change every other day. The Crypt went away on day two at 10 ppt, but here is the really strange thing and I cannot figure out what it is that I'm missing.
Every day, one of my fishes would die.
<Combination of the Crypt (exsanguination), debilitation and low salinity exposure>
This started three days ago. The first was my Starry Blenny. I just noticed one evening that he suddenly looked stressed, was sitting in a hole and breathing rapidly. I checked my ammonia level and it was 0.25 ppm,
<And this>
0 nitrite, 20 nitrate and noting that while in hypo, the tests are not accurate. I immediately did a 40 gallon water change leaving it at 1.008. Next day, he was very lethargic and died.
On examination of his body, he seemed perfectly fine, but his mouth was gaping open.
<The loss of RBCs, oxygen carrying capacity>
Yesterday, I found my coral beauty dead behind a rock. I thought maybe someone picked on her and in fright, she got herself stuck...on examination of her body, again looking fine, but she looked a little bloated
<The hypo, osmotic leaking>
and again mouth was gaping open. Today, my husband noticed that my Kole Tang was swimming very very quickly in circles counterclock-wise. I took her out of the tank and tried to increase the salinity a little to 1.010 thinking maybe it is a reaction of some sort,
<Yes>
she died within four hours of starting to swim in circles. On examination of her body, I noticed that she was not soft like normally recently deceased fishes, her fins were all stiffly held erect and again, her mouth was gaping open. I performed an 80 gallon water change this evening after noting that my Atlantic Blue Tang was not his usual self. At first I thought it was because his buddy, the Kole, died, but he started swimming around looking very vigilant, holding his dorsal and anal fins erect.
Normally at lights out, he swims near the floor of the tank going between the rocks but now he is swimming near the top in the "brightest" corner of the tank. I noticed that my emperor and powder blue tang goes and checks on him, and something is not right.
Oh no, now he is swimming couple of feet and turning around and this tank is six feet long! Okay, he is now just hanging out in a corner of the tank, which I've never seen him do...
What is going on?
<As stated above>
I've tried to look everywhere and read anything about fishes swimming like this but none with such a quick death. I don't think my Atlantic Blue will be with me for long and he will be the fourth fish who died. I want to know what this is so that I can better help them.
Please please please help!
Sincerely,
Jamie Barclay
<Am generally not a fan of hyposalinity for the many cases/trials as yours here... but what CAN be done in the short/er term when there is evidence (not always simply visual) of hyperinfection? Answer: Some sort of bath/dip (freshwater, w/ Methylene Blue, Formalin, serious aeration, while present/observing fishes) THEN immediate move to a chemically bare TREATMENT system... WITH? Quinine of some sort best nowayears... All posted and gone over and over on WWM... including your previous brave efforts. Bob Fenner>
Re: Something is horribly wrong! Please advise! 11/4/11
Dearest Bob,
Thank you so much for your reply.
<Welcome Jamie>
I came home early to start doing water changes as last night as I lay there thinking and thinking, I was wondering if there was some type of toxin in the water as the fishes had no change of appetite or behavior until within 24 hours of their demise.
I would do the chemically bare TREATMENT system with Quinine as I do have that on hand, but I am leaving for Asia tomorrow morning and that my pet sitter is very limited in her ability to manage a new system as that. I'm thinking the "best" that I can do in my current situation is that I need to increase the salinity. Last night, at my hubby's encouragement, I increased salinity from 1.008 to 1.010. I was thinking of keeping it there for the next 10 days as that is how long I will be gone, but now I'm thinking maybe I should increase it to 1.012 now and 1.014 tonight roughly 12 hours later.
<Yes I would do this>
I know it is not the BEST but do you think that it is better plan than to keep it at 1.010?
The poor Atlantic Blue is still with us...sort of, laying on his side and breathing regularly but I think it's all brain stem function now. The Emperor Angel, Powder Blue Tang, Cleaner Wrasse, Flame Hawkfish, and pair of Clowns (who are caring for their batch of eggs) all appear "normal" picking at rocks, the algae sheet that I've put in there interested in their environment.
I cried and cried and cried yesterday and tried to tell myself that these are just fish which I do love to eat all the time...but they are no longer the yummy dish when you get to know each and every one of their personalities and their interactions with you.
Thank you, always, for your insight, knowledge, and support.
One of your biggest fans,
Jamie
<Steady on my friend. Realize that you're doing all you can. BobF>
Re: Something is horribly wrong! Please advise! Crypt, hypo.    11/6/11
Greetings Bob,
I just wanted to give you an update whilst waiting for my flight to leave Montreal.
The Atlantic Blue died yesterday and after doing a total of 160 gallon water change and increasing salinity, things are much improved. I even made a total of 120 gallons of water for my friend at the LFS to use if needed.
Now that there is absolutely nothing for me to do, I've done a lot of reflection.
You are absolutely right about the salinity and the general poor condition of the tank that caused their demise. I just wished that I written you much earlier when I lost my Starry Blenny and I may have prevented the other lives from being lost.
One thing that I remembered from my last battle with Crypt was that I was at 1.012 for three months and noticed that every four weeks or so I would get two or three very small tight spots on the Powder Blue, then when I raised salinity up to 1.018 was when I had another outbreak.
<Yes... a friend in the trade (and co-author of a recent book on fish disease) related that he keeps all his Fish Only service accounts at 1.010 AND a titer of free copper. I was very surprised... as these conditions to my experience often lead to troubles>
I then read Leebecca's (sp?) account on ReefSanctuary.com about 1.008 and I lowered it that time over several days and kept it there for 117 days which was when I successfully fought off the Crypt infection with no loss. I counted myself lucky that time and this time, I went too fast and too drastic in the lowering of salinity.
The infection was not so bad that the fishes were so "deathly" ill as they were all eating well and not showing worse for wear, except that I saw spots. I should have SLOWED down things and do more sitting and watching, maybe my little friends will still be with me today.
It was the worst for us to lose that Atlantic Blue Tang as we got him as a beaten up little guy the size of a silver dollar, still bright yellow with that blue ring around his eye. Watching him grow to be a 8 inch giant with beautiful coloring that he changed with his mood, or literally fighting with him whilst trying to place rocks or corals as he tries to move them for me...
Thank you again for your support.
Sincerely,
Jamie
<Welcome, BobF>

Marine Ich - Whitespot... in established reef     10/26/11
Hello... I have been recommended to yourselves by David Perry. I have Whitespot in my 4ft x 2ft x 2ft tank. In there I have leather corals, sun corals, various soft corals i.e. mushrooms and feather dusters, plus 2 anemones. Also have 3 cleaner shrimps, 2 peppermint shrimps, 1 porcelain crab and 1 common crab, 1 large maroon clown his/her smaller mate succumbed to the Whitespot, 7 small green chromis, 2 tiny blue cheek gobies one larger blue cheek goby, one juvenile Queen Angel and one cleaner wrasse.
The tank has been up and running since July 2011 prior to that we had a 90 litre tank.
I have read several articles on Whitespot and Im getting overwhelmed by the information. I would like to know what is the best solution to getting rid of the Whitespot.
<There is no one. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/reefparfaq2.htm>
This has mostly affected the yellow tangs and powder blue tang that we had for which sadly they have died. Is there any safe reef solution out there to eliminate the problem.
<None>
We have a sump underneath our tank which we run a skimmer and have tried Ozone, we currently don't have a UV but again reading articles this is something that comes up as being a positive to have in your tank. The water from the tank when it drops into the sump does so via two filter socks.
Our queen angel did have Whitespot but he/she has survived and has no spots all now.
<Acquired immunity of sorts>
We have considered the quarantine tank method but have been put off by not wanting to cause any more stress to these creatures. Any help would greatly appreciated.
Regards
Christine Addis
UK
<And you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Marine Ich Treatment 10/20/11
Thank you. I read through the entire Ich section.
<Nah... too much to read in such a short period of time>
Pardon my ignorance, but I thought Cupramine was the best drug for Crypt.
Please let me know if I am wrong.
<No... is of no use to try helping you (for free I might add). You won't follow directions. Go elsewhere... and soon. Your fishes are soon to be dead>
I also know that treating in the display is not recommended, but under the circumstances it was my only option (I do not have quarters to quarantine all the fish).
Regarding free ion copper, I had removed pretty much all the copper that was exposed to the UV, so all the copper I have now is unaffected Cupramine. By the way, the UV was only on for about a day, but I decided remove the exposed Cupramine just in case.
The only thing I am confused about is why the angel's eye are cloudy and why all of the Ich has not yet been eradicated...any semblance of Ich should have been treated already.
Is it possible the Cupramine is not working properly?
Also, what is a Quinine drug? Any suggestions for a brand name?
Re: Marine Ich Treatment 10/20/11
Thank you anyway. When I said I read everything, I did not mean today.
<Then... you don't understand what's recorded here>
I have had marine fish for 3 years and have had 6 tanks. I have battled with Ich before treating with Cupramine but in QT.
<Ahh, the only place for this... NOT, NEVER in main/display systems.... >
I have not only read the Ich section but have read about 75% of your entire site over 3 years. I have also read, several times for that matter, your book.
By the way, I am willing to pay for your time, as I trust your site and your knowledge.
<No need to pay; we're happy to help... IF people are communicative and willing to listen. B>
Re: Marine Ich Treatment 10/21/11
Ok I read through the quinine sulfate section. I have honestly never heard of it. I have ordered some and am having it overnighted. I will add carbon and do a 50% water change. When do you think it would be safe to add the quinine? Do I need cu to read 0?
>As soon as you have it<
I thank you for referring me to the treatment. I honestly thought copper was the best cure; at least it is sold that way.
I have absolutely zero inverts in my tank (the copper would have killed them long ago)...so I am assuming I should not have an ammonia spike.
Re: Marine Ich Treatment 10/21/11
Also do you recommend quinine sulphate or Chloroquine phosphate?
<Keep reading>

Hey Crew! Crypt ed. 101    10/18/11
Hey guys,
I have a Blue Hippo Tang that had a bad breakout of (Ick) that I moved to a quarantine tank.
<The main/display tank is still infested...>
I had also had my yellow tang with her because she had some Ick also. I lowered the salinity and they have been there for a little over two weeks.
their Ick is gone and they are eating, but the blue hippo has a small fleshy (hole) on her head between her eyes. The Nitrite levels are 2.0ppm
<Beyond deadly toxic>
and the Nitrate levels are 80ppm in my quarantine tank so I moved my yellow tang back to my large tank
<...>
because she is doing so good <well>!! And of course I have done a small water change using replacement water from my large tank.
<... infested>
 My question is should I move my Blue hippo to the main tank, since I am struggling to get the levels back to normal on my quarantine tank? My main tank levels are all "0". I'm not sure but I think my quarantine tank may be recycling...
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/quarsysfiltrfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. To avoid delays in future do learn to/use the search tool and indices on WWM. Bob Fenner>

Re: Stocking list , opinions please? Crypt    10/17/11
Hello again crew,
<Rama>
I come to you with a heavy heart today. The introduction plan we discussed has gone very badly and I may have reached the end of my Marine fish keeping journey.
Apologies for the long email, if you want to cut to the chase, the first half is mostly reference history , the last half is the current issue Following the anemone puree incident in my last email and premature removal of the two Bannerfish in quarantine into the display, the Anemone recovered quite well, and very swiftly considering it lost more than a half of itself. One of the two Heniochus died shortly after introduction (not very surprised, it never actually looked as healthy/active as the other) and the second was very healthy and happy for a couple of months, right up until the now very healthy Entacmaea set up an impressively cunning trap in a strong current channel which swept said Heniochus to a tentacle doom while I was at work. Died of acute anemenation and was consumed (by an anemone no bigger than itself, no less).
<Happens>
I resolved to buy from no-one unless they would agree to quarantine the fish as a batch (of 5) for 4 weeks after arrival in store before I took them home (one per week). Rang every LFS in Melbourne's east (about 15) and finally found only one who would agree to do this (I even offered to pay people extra to do it). To cut a long story shorter, they ordered 3 H. acuminatus and a Paracanthurus, and Zebrasoma for me. This first batch made 3 weeks before an employee killed them with by rinsing a power circuit. The next batch arrived and made one week before store reneged on our deal and demanded I come get them or lose them (should have very much opted for the latter- pity the fool).
Went in and the 3 wimples were covered in Ich. I ended up taking the blue tang home as she looked just "ok" and following Bob's advice on the WWM species page, "she" was dipped and dumped into the display with fervent prayers. I understand this recommendation (not to QT this particular fish) is a " lesser of two evils" argument so please don't think I'm blaming Bob for this advice, but unfortunately about 7 days later (yesterday) she broke out in (visible) crypt from top to tail.
<Yes; well put>
OK...case history done, now the complicated bit..
As a just in case measure I had moved my Maroon Clown (my baby for over 7 years) into my QT tank, so that if the tang WAS diseased at least "he" would be safe
Glad I did this, but now I'm kind of stuck. I've got nowhere to put another QT tank to treat the tang (I'm working on getting power to an insulated room in my shed with two spare tanks in it for this, but may come too late) We are heading into the Australian summer and can't set up anything uninsulated due to heat
The LFS assures my it must be my tank (surprise) and "swears by" tri-sulfur,
<Mmm, sulfa drugs are very old-school... Quinine compounds are the present winners>
which I've not seen recommended as being effective against crypt much at all, but given my limited options on reef Display treatment , I've thrown some in anyway as a hail Mary, ordered a UV steriliser and started  lowering the salinity (only to about 1.019- 10.017 as I have softies) and messing with light cycles.
The basic idea here is I'm trying to make the parasites life as miserable as possible in the hope I can find a solution to my QT problem to treat the tang properly and let the display go fallow (she is the only occupant).
I'm even trying other desperate hopes like feeding garlic, and dividing the tank so that she doesn't sleep in the same spot each night to make it harder for the hatching tomites to find her (thin, I know...)
Gave the tang her first Formalin/Meth Blue FW dip today which she did not like at ALL
<Ah, no... don't do this (though I have accidentally)... splash some in your eyes... Burning!>
(Spit water , Aerial tricks and torpedo impersonations, play dead etc.) I bore it out for about 4 minutes before I ran out of nerve (not long enough I know) and pulled the pin (the dip was 1 ml/litre of 37% Formalin and 2.5ml of Meth Blue in 10 litres of PH/temp matched FW aerated/circulated overnight and aerated during dip) can you please verify no mistakes here?
<So far...>
I've got Cupramine but don't want to use it on this fish (in QT of course), have rang numerous vets trying to get Quinine diphosphate with no luck yet, still trying .... very. IF I can swing some miracle with a second hospital tank I'll use this, otherwise......... back to eye of newt, faith healing etc.
<And ten jumping jacks>
I'm not sure if there's anything else you can throw my way, but I'd appreciate it if there's any other tricks you can think of to combat this.
Essentially , after so many failures at purchasing healthy fish (and other typical failures), I just can't stand watching them die anymore and if I can't cure this one, might just give in to increasing spouse pressure (my QT
tank is in her pantry.. not good) to abandon this vice due to the stress it creates. I have never yet successfully cured a fish of Ich so I'm not very hopeful.
<Well... if we could go way back, before lowering spg, placing toxic medicines... I might have tried a purposeful cleaner>
Man! all I want is for someone to at least commit to selling me healthy fish and maybe I'll have a chance
Any pearls of wisdom would be very appreciated, apart from actual divorce I'm desperate to save this fish (who by the way is eating and swimming as if nothing is wrong at all , not even glancing or panting, probably should have mentioned that sooner- sorry)
Cheers,
Rama
<Hang in there Rama... you're doing about all that can be done. Bob Fenner>
Re: Stocking list , opinions please?   10/17/11
Hi again Crew,
Sorry just one more thing, I have been able to locate a chemist that sells Quinine Sulfate ("Quinate") and a vet who will script for it, but have read comments like this:
*I have been treating this tank with Quinine Sulfate.
<Do try Chloroquine phosphate next time...>*
*from Bob, implying that this is not as good as Chloroquine Phosphate?
Could you clarify for me please?
Cheers,
Rama
<Both can/do work... many more fans currently for CP. BobF>

White spot mistake. Crypt prev., Infested sys.    9/29/11
Dear Wet Web Media,
Here comes the all too familiar story of Marine White Spot Disease.
<Aye yah>
First off the background story. I had a 120 gallon tank with a red sea Sailfin tang. I added a flame angel and it had ich. I know this was a mistake and I learned the hard way. I scrambled to set up a quarantine tank but unfortunately it was too late and the flame angel died. I quarantined the tang a 5 days ago but found him dead today. He had no sign of any type poisoning at all so I'm assuming he died of a secondary infection. My question is how long should I wait until adding new fish to the main tank again.
<Mmm, depending... mostly on whether you'd like to/can raise temperature, lower salinity... a few to several weeks>
Also, until then how should I keep the bacteria population from decreasing again?
<Minimal feeding of proteinaceous food... a pinch of flake, dried food every few days>
I did observe that the fish were clean in the morning then infested by the end of the day which makes me think it was the short life cycle strain of white spot.
<Mmm... a more complex possibility... but if this explanation gets you by, okay>
I have the temperature at 80. Finally, don't worry I learned my lesson on quarantine unfortunately it was just the hard way. Thank you for all your help and time.
<Mmm, do read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptprevfaqs.htm
and as much of the linked files embedded as you can gain from>
Sincerely,
Michael R
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: White spot mistake.    9/29/11
Dear Wet Web Media,
<MR>
I would love to get fish in the tank asap (without jeopardizing the new fish obviously). Therefore I would be willing to try one of the two options you gave me. I am just worried if my Ricordea Florida, chili coral and my snails and crabs will be ok with hyposalinity or the raise in temperature.
What do you think.
<Better to take the longer route... NOT modify the env.. Six weeks fallow (sans fish hosts) will get you as close to 100% as you're likely to go>
Also, what are the more complex possibilities you
mentioned I am curious and want to know.
<The spots observable from parasitic irritation are a reaction by the hosts... their reaction is based on a few factors... initial health (genetic and ontogenetic/developmental), impinging, impacting elements of the environment ("water quality", nutrition, social factors, light intensity...), as well as your alluded to "strength", strain of hyperinfective pathogen/s. BobF>
Thank you,
Sincerely,
Michael Rosa

Quarantine Tank... Crypt    9/8/11
Hello,
I have not been able to find an answer directly related to my situation. I am in the process of trying to get rid of ich on the fish in my 210 gallon aquarium. I am going to move them all to a quarantine tank,
<Not quarantine: treatment>
however, the only spare tank I have is a reef ready 90 gallon with sump. The sump currently has only a micron bag for filtration. This tank seems to be much larger than recommended for a quarantine tank and also not the kind of filtration that is recommended either. I am not sure how I would keep the water quality stable since it seems there would be no biological filtration in this system. Will this work for what I need, or perhaps a way to make it work?
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
The fish consist of a Blue Hippo Tang, Vlamingi Tang, Coral Beauty Angel and 5 green Chromis. I have had all of them for almost 3 years. It seems that it would not be possible to move them to a smaller quarantine tank. However, I have never used a quarantine tank before as all of my fish came from a friend's old tank. So, I have no idea what I am doing.
I really appreciate any help you can provide.
Thank you,
Jon
<And here: http://wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above... and soon. I'd be looking into using a quinine compound... and very soon. Bob Fenner>
Re: Quarantine Tank    9/8/11
Thank you for your reply. I am very familiar with diagnosing and then treating ich and have read those pages several times. My main questions were whether or not the 90 gallon tank I have is going to work for all of those fish to be together for so long?
<Can, could, given attn. to water quality as you earlier stated>
Will I end up causing more problems by putting them in this tank?
<Rather than what? Is treating in the display tank impractical... per quinine cpd.s?>
And, will the sump with a micron bag suffice for filtration on that tank, or is there a better way to filter for the purpose of treating these fish since no live rock or other biological filtration will be present?
<Mmm, no, of a certainty... you'll have to (read re) augmenting biofiltration in situ or changing out large volumes, or...>
There is no information anywhere answering either of these questions directly, everything is focusing on tanks in the range of 10 to 40 gallons it seems.
Thank you,
Jon
<Here more specifically: http://wetwebmedia.com/quarsysfiltrfaqs.htm
BobF>

ich course of action, Zanclus plus...     8/31/11
Hello,
<Kit>
I'll try to keep this as brief as possible, and I apologize in advance if this message gets a bit lengthy.
<No worries. Take your time>
This was supposed to be a victory speech. On September 17, it would have been three years that I was able to keep a Moorish Idol, not only alive, but thriving. He (she?) had grown to a beautiful 7 inches, and was enchanting to watch for hours on end. I had every intention of messaging a word of thanks to you for all the knowledge this website had provided me in this endeavor. That was until my chiller decided to quit running in the middle of the night about three weeks ago. I live in Texas, and we have been going through a record breaking heat wave. It took me almost two weeks to get another chiller ordered and installed. I was able to keep everything alive but the Moorish Idol and a Flame Anthias. The Moorish Idol went from eating its morning meal, to not eating dinner, to gone by the next morning. I was heartbroken. In my state of despair, I made a rash decision and ordered another specimen. It was being sold as Hawaiian collected (my previous one was from Fiji).
<Both good sources>
The only problem I had with the first one was getting it to eat New Life Spectrum dosed in Selcon. It took me four weeks, but eventually he began to enjoy it. Since that had been a relatively painless acclimation process, I justified ordering another. Knowing the sensitivity of this fish, I didn't quarantined the first time around, so I didn't this time either.
<Oooh>
Again, noting the sensitivity factor, I did not do a freshwater dip prior to releasing him into the tank. I acclimated him for five hours, floating him in the bag, adding a little tank water every 10-15 minutes, with only actinic
lights on. Upon release, the new fish showed no signs of stress, and was eating Selcon soaked Spectrum on the second feeding the following day, interacting peacefully with everybody else. None of the tank mates are overtly aggressive towards him. On the second day after release he had Ich. The only sources of stress I can see is the female Naso Tang seems to sometimes shadow the Moorish Idol, and at times hovers around him flexing her dorsal fin.
<Mmm, I want to add a statement oft-sent re "residual" stress in aquatics, particularly fishes. They very often don't "react" immediately, as do tetrapods/amniotes... advanced, mostly "warm blooded" terrestrial animals... Their reaction series behaviorally, metabolically are often delayed by a few to several days. In practical terms, the stress your Zanclus received in capture, handling, shipping is likely at play here...
Not what you did yourself>
No nipping, or fin whipping by the Naso at all. The other source just seems to be the general activity going on in the tank. My first Idol was acclimated when only the Anthias, Angel, and Wrasse (who stays buried a lot) were present, and they were much smaller. The Tang and Butterfly have certainly added movement to the tank. The Coris Wrasse has been buried since introducing the new Moorish Idol, so I'm still unsure how that interaction will be. The tank is a standard 180 gallon tank with about 150 pounds of live rock in the middle of the tank (off the back wall). The current list of fish are -
3" Potters Angel
7" Coris gaimard Wrasse
5" Naso Tang
4" Raccoon Butterfly
(2) 4" Flame Anthias
(2) 3" tank raised Ocellaris Clownfish
3" Moorish Idol
All fish but the Moorish Idol were dipped and then quarantined for a month before introduction into main tank.
<Wish you had done this for the Idol as well>
The last fish added prior to the Moorish Idol was the butterfly (for Aiptasia control) about 6 months ago. The oldest fish are the wrasse and the angel (about 4 years now). The tank has never had an outbreak in the 4+ years it has been running. It was upgraded from a 90 gallon tank that had run fallow for 6 weeks. I know this website is in favor of isolation and quarantining of all fish in the system to a hospital tank.
Unfortunately, the next largest tank I have is a 46 gallon bow front. That is never going to be large enough to house everybody. An employee of LFS that I respect said the stress of going into the display tank and basically dismantling all the rock to remove fish might prove to be too stressful on the Moorish Idol.
<Might>
He is still eating New Life Spectrum Thera+A soaked in Selcon, and only seems mildly irritated by the infestation, twitching every now and then, and only a slight rapid breathing. I have not observed any scratching on the rocks at all. She said to try lowering the lights (which I had already done), and suggested a hyposalinity method in the display tank. Instead of quarantining and using a chemical treatment, she suggested that boosting immune system of the fish would be enough to stave of the infestation at some point.
<Again, might>
Regarding such a delicate fish, do you guys think this is advisable, or would you suggest I start pulling rock out, and make every attempt to quarantine?
<I would likely not do so... would attempt treatment in place... a Quinine compound...>
Thanks
in advance for your help. This website is tremendous, and I have spent endless hours enjoying it immensely.
Kit
<Do please read here (and soon) re:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/QuinAcctF.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Re: ich course of action, Quinine cpd.s/DSBs   9/1/11
Thanks for pointing me towards a Quinine treatment. I have been feverishly reading posts and articles written on QS and CP since yesterday. I am extremely hesitant to add either one of these compounds to my DT.
<... what alternatively can/will you do?>
Something of concern that I failed to mention yesterday specific to my set-up, is that I have a 6-8" DSB to accommodate the Coris Wrasse. One post mentioned a possible cascading effect to the biological filter from die-off on the LR.
<Can happen>
Would this also be a possibility with a DSB? I see no mention of these two compounds' effects on a DSB anywhere.
<Do at times effect mostly crustaceans...>
Would you still recommend (albeit not ideal) this treatment with a DSB employed?
<Again; amongst what other choices? Are you considering just waiting, seeing if the infestation will stabilize of its own accord? Hyposalinity might well cause such a disaster.>
The Crypto seems to be getting worse on the Moorish Idol with each night, yet he still seems only mildly irritated by it. Today is now day 5 since noticing the infestation, and I realize something must be done soon, or my choice will be made for me. I'm off to see if I can find Bob Goemans and/or Ed Noga's books locally.
<Was out w/ Lance Ichinatsubo (BobG's writing partner) and Ed just a couple weeks back for the second Fish Health Conference at UNE... Do look for Noga's second ed.... both can be purchased online (Amazon et al.)>
Also, stopping by LFS to see
if they have any advice on Quinine, and have also emailed National Fish Pharmaceuticals on concern about DSB. Thanks again for the advice.
Kit
<And you for this follow up. BobF>
Re: ich course of action    9/2/11
Just another update as to my situation. I was able to net the Moorish Idol. I guess those few years in the aquatics department at Petco long ago paid off. I was able to get him away from the rock, and corner him against the glass. There was very minimal stress involved, it took only a couple of attempts spread hours apart. I have him in a bath of 5 gallons from the DT and 15mL of Seachem Paraguard. He's been in for 35 minutes, and am waiting another 25 minutes as prescribed on the bottle.
<While aerating the system I hope/trust>
He's going into the before mentioned 46 gallon tank. It has been running for 6 months housing a Caulastrea colony that the B/F had taken a liking to after depleting the Aiptasia in DT. It is the only coral I have left from a reef set-up years ago, and was debating what to do with it. For now, at least I have the Moorish Idol out of the DT, and will start setting up something smaller to house the coral. From here on out he will receive FW dips with Methylene Blue if I see any more spots.
<...? What about the infested display?>
This has been the only technique that has proven effective for me. I'm hoping to quarantine the Moorish Idol for 30 days, and keep an eye on DT to make sure no other fish have an outbreak.
<... the system is infested>
Hopefully, at that time the Moorish Idol will have a strong enough immune system to go back in the DT. The DT is running a UV sterilizer, so hopefully that will at least control the population of the present parasite. I'll keep you posted. Thanks - Kit
<Best of luck. BobF>

Suspected case of Ich    7/2/11
I think I may have made an expensive mistake. I started out with a 40 gallon Jebo tank in which I kept a blue tang,
<This species needs more room than this>
cinnamon clown, and a damsel in. I recently purchased a used 135 gallon aquarium. I hired a guy from a fish store to tear down, deliver, and set it up at my home. The original owner admitted he had not changed the water in 7-8 months after he had the cash and it was loaded in the truck. The water was sucked into a holding tank on the guy's truck and he suggested I keep most of it and do a 30-40% water change which we did. My blue hippo tang that I have had for 3 years will not leave the cleaner shrimp, he didn't really eat today, but he ate yesterday. His normally black stripe is yellowish, and he is not really even swimming around anymore. His eyes are also cloudy. I also purchased a yellow and Sailfin tang-( which I noticed has Ich as well), coral beauty, niger trigger (no noticeable signs yet), and 9 chromis fish which have all died except two. I also lost a blenny, black saddleback clown, and a Hawaiian wrasse. I guess my questions to you are: 1. Are all my fish going to die?
<Mmm, hopefully not... at least not in the short term>
2. Is there something immediate I can do?
<Yes... treat this system, these fishes...>
3. Can I use my 40 gallon Jebo tank as a QT for all the fish?
<Too late for quarantine... now treatment>
4. What medication do you recommend? Copper sulfate?
<Quinine compounds are preferable if you can secure them ASAP. Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSciUseF.htm
and the linked files above. TIME IS of the essence>
5. Will medication kill the Ich if it is in my Jebo tank that I'm going to use as a QT?
<... perhaps>
6. Can Ich attach to live rock?
<Yes, anything wet>
7. I started
using Ich Attack
<Worthless>
in the display aquarium, but have read that it is ineffective...is that true? 8. Is 30 days long enough to leave the tank fallow? Your advice would be greatly appreciated.
Rhonda
<You should learn to/use the search tool and indices on WWM. Do the reading NOW, act ASAP. Bob Fenner>
Re: re: suspected case of Ich   7/4.5/11
Hello Mr .Fenner, <Rhonda> thank you for everything you do and your last quick response. I am a newbie at fish diseases and have been reading voraciously for the last 3-4 days on marine crypt and quinine sulfate. I have ordered quinine sulfate as per your advice and am waiting for it to arrive. Today is July 4th and I believe it will not be shipped until tomorrow. The water quality in my DT is at 8.2 ph, 0 nitrite and ammonia, but high in nitrates (80-160 ppm hard to tell which color it matches), very close.
<I would be changing a very large percentage of this water out, doing what you can easily do to reduce this concentration to below 20 ppm...
Environment in many ways/measures is a strong co-determinant of health/disease>
In all the reading I have done it gets more confusing because people have different opinions and experiences with Ich and qs. I have a couple more questions for you...Does the qs effect the biofilter, stripping it of bacteria that keeps the ammonia under control?
<Generally no; this is one of the chief advantages and differences between the use of Quinine cpd.s and copper>
Will using it have any permanent effects on my DT?
<Mmm, no>
Are there after effects of using qs on my 135 gallon FO display tank?
<Quite possibly yes>
If I use this QS, what else should I be monitoring, or especially monitoring, as far as water quality?
<Aspects of nitrogenous accumulation, pH, RedOx, but most importantly, the behavior of your livestock>
Does the qs make the ph spike, if so, how often should I check the water?
<Once a day should be fine... about mid-day (not early AM>
My blue hippo tang pulled through his
first bout or cycle of Ich and is swimming and eating a little more, but he still hides out by the cleaner shrimp. He has not been breathing rapidly
for 2-3 days now. Can fish survive on their own with no treatment?
<They can and do at times... Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm
and the linked FAQs files above in the same vein>
Should I turn the skimmer off while using qs.
<Yes>
I have it off now while I was using Ich Attack, I know you said it was worthless, but using until the qs gets here...I feel I need to do something!! I bought Voogle first aid for fish to put in water to help boost their immune system,
<Am unfamiliar with this product>
Garlic Guard and Vita Chem to soak their frozen food in, Anti-Parasite medicated fish food. With the high nitrates, what percentage of a water change do you suggest I do?
<As much as you feel comfortable with>
Should I vacuum the sand as well, and is it ok to bleach the sand and put it back?
<Vac, but don't remove, and no bleaching>
I also bought Algone, but was waiting until I did a water change to put it in the filter. I think I mentioned there is a huge amount of live rock...will the rock effect or absorb the QS or interfere with dosage amounts?
<The rock, sand, what is in it... will absorb the quinine, most any "fish med.">
Should I run carbon in the filter to get rid of residuals in water?
<... you should treat the fishes elsewhere... Thought we/I'd gone over and over this with you...>
Is there any more info I should know that I haven't asked or mentioned to your knowledge that will help me do a better job?
<... just to re-re-refer you to the sections on WWM re>
And two more questions...(: I have been purchasing saltwater which can be quite an expense in the long term. Is it necessary to buy a reverse osmosis machine to make one's own salt water or can I buy a filtering system for the faucet?
<... yes, posted>
What is good quality tap water/verses bad, and how can I check it?
<... read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/marsetupindex1.htm
scroll down to the tray on Water/Quality... Please learn to/use the search tool and indices on WWM... there are tens of thousands of people who use the site a day and only a few friends with spare time to help directly respond. What you've asked for to date is all posted.>
Thank you, thank you for your help, your time, and advice in advance Mr. Fenner.
Sincerely, Rhonda
<Welcome! BobF>

Help with a Cryptocaryon judgment call, 6/21/11
Hello WWM Crew:
<Hi>
First let me say Thank You for your wonderful site. I have spent hours perusing it, and have learned many things that I didn't intend to. Knowing that I have barely gotten my feet wet in this hobby, I anticipate a very long relationship with this site.
<Great.>
I have a 2-month-old 12 gallon Nano tank with a 3 gallon reverse photo period refugium that is my primary filtration (roughly 16 lbs live rock in the whole system, red Gracilaria in the fuge) I also use chemical filtration in the form of Chemipure beads. I change 1 to 1.5 gallons a week (depending on how much siphoning I do). Since the completion of the set-up cycle, all parameters have been stable. I got Zoanthids and a small polyp of some kind (short green stars with no remarkable mouth) as live rock hitchhikers, and have since added 2 Ricordeas, another zo, snails, 2 blue-leg hermits, and 3 Pederson's anemone shrimp. 10 days ago I added a pair of yellow-headed jawfish (the whole tank has been designed with them in mind). All have been doing well.
<Ok>
Here is the kicker: 3 days ago I added a firefish from the LFS. I have been observing his tank there for a month, and he was supposedly on a separate water system from the other tanks. By now I am sure you can tell where this is going. Despite looking perfectly healthy, the same day I put him into my tank he became sprinkled with pin-prick discreet white dots, head to tail, fin to fin. Despite a lack of other symptoms (no rubbing, great appetite), I have been assuming it was Cryptocaryon irritans (sorry for the lack of italics...portable keyboard). Knowing that my tank had already been exposed, seeing how healthy he otherwise looked, and not having any meds on hand, I decided to wait a day whilst devising a plan. The spots were completely gone the next morning, developed during the day, and then were gone the next morning. This is the third morning, he is spotless, and has remained "clear" all day. The jawfish have remained "spotless". So, was this a mild case of Ich that has now been suppressed?
Or something else?
<Likely to return, just going through it's lifecycle.>
My conundrum is whether to dig everyone out (for the jawfish this will require complete tank disassembly as the burrow is under my rock), treat the fish in QT and allow my tank to go fishless for 6 weeks or leave well enough alone. My instinct is to do the latter...I hate to stress out symptomless fish.
<I would watch closely for now, be ready to remove fish and treat in a hospital tank if the symptoms return as I think they may.>
My concern is whether the Crypt is causing organ damage to my fish, and risk to any new fish (my tank is pretty much at its limit, but I may add a tailspot blenny after it matures for several more months).
<You are definitely full now, perhaps overstocked, I would not add more fish to such a small tank.>
I know that in the end the judgment call is my own, but I am hoping to benefit from someone with more experience with this disease.
Thank You!
Jessica
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Help with Ich in a tank housing a banded cat shark   5/10/11
Hello. I have been doing a lot of research
<Brooke... a lot? How is it you've ended w/ the too-much mix of incompatible life here?!>
but I am at a standstill I have an 85 gallon with a Volitans, snowflake eel, round ray,
<Incompatible, and likely a cold water species>
2 Niger triggers and a yellow tang. We were doing great until we tried to add a Radiata
<And a cat shark?... ? All this in 85 gallons? No. You need at a minimum twice these gallonage, two systems.>
it wasn't doing well and if was ultimately removed and lost. Now one if our triggers is showing some white spots on it's body. Still eating well though. No one else is showing any signs. I have read to be safe we need to treat all fish and with my selection that means quinine sulfate or Quinacrine hydrochloride.
<Chloroquine Phosphate would be better... Read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSciUseF.htm
Problem- I can't find them anywhere.
<... and the linked file/s above, particularly "Sources">
I called fishyfarmacy.com and they are out as well and have no suggestions.
So should I take the fish out leaving the scaleless in the display and treat with copper ?
<I would definitely NOT>
Is the Ich always going to live in my tank?
<Who knows if this is even really Crypt?>
I really appreciate any help!
Best Regards,
<Do read... write back if you have questions. Bob Fenner>
Brooke McKee

QT/Marine Ich/Sanitize Questions, 5/5/11
Hello All,
<Hi>
First, thank you for providing this service.
<Thanks for writing in.>
I purchased a purple tang from a wholesaler in Los Angeles 5 days ago. I brought it home and acclimated it using a slow drip line in 5 gallon bucket. It is in a 40g QT tank with 2 clowns and a Banggai cardinal, also obtained from the wholesaler.
<Ok>
On day 2, the tang had a few white spots on it. Looking at photos on your site and others, it appears to be marine Ich (Crypto). I researched as many sites as I could, talked to 2 local fish store employees, and also talked to a few local hobbyists whom I respect. Since they were already in QT, it seemed that the two best options for treatment were copper or hyposalinity.
I picked hyposalinity because I preferred to not dose the fish with a substance like copper if I could avoid it and didn't have the copper and test kit, but did have a good RO/DI system.
<Copper and tangs generally do not mix well, but hypo has it's own issues.
I personally would have gone with one of the quinine drugs with this set of livestock, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/quinmedfaqs.htm .>
The clowns and Banggai have not shown any signs of Ich to date, but are still in the same tank (I felt if they were exposed to the tang who has Ich, they were clearly exposed and should be treated as well).
<Agreed>
I couldn't find anything that said how quickly I should take the fish and water down to 1.010 SG (my target). I did a 5 min FW dip, and then took 2.5 days to lower SG to 1.010, afraid to shock the fish. I figured this was the best way to proceed since I did find information that said that when going back up to 1.024-1.025 SG after treatment, I should a couple of days - so in the absence of information about how fast I should lower SG, I took this rationale and applied it in reverse. I then read (today) an article on your site that recommended prepping the water, a short FW dip, then immersion straight into hyposalinated water.
<Down is easier on the fish than up.>
So question #1 - was my mistake (slowly lowering SG) something to worry about? Am I creating some type of hypo-resistant strain of Ich? Should I keep going, or abandon, slowly raise SG, and then treat with copper?
<It should be fine.>
Question #2 - If I am to keep going with hyposalination, how long should I keep the water at 1.010 SG?
<That is the trick with hypo, it needs to be there for a minimum of 4 weeks which is generally one lifecycle of the parasite. If the SG is allowed to go up through evaporation or mistakes it is all for naught, so be vigilant.>
Question #3 - How should I sanitize nets, buckets, strainers, etc., that come into contact with tank water from the QT tank? 1:10 bleach:water solution? Soak? For how long?
<Rinse in fresh water and allow to dry completely. You could use a mild bleach solution if it makes you feel better but the parasite cannot survive in a dry environment so that should be enough.>
As always, thank you for your help.
Paul
<Welcome>
<Chris>

Re: Marine Ich    4/17/11
Hi again,
<...>
I have a 210g FOWLR tank with 150 lbs of rock and the following inhabitants... False Personifer Angel 7", Flagfin Angel 5", Coral Beauty Angel 3", Flagtail Blanquillo 6", Purple Tang 3", Dog Face Puffer, 5", and Maroon Clown 3". SG-1.019, pH-8.3, Temp-78 degrees, all controlled by a Reefkeeper lite for temp/pH stability.
The tank has been up and running for 1-1/2 yrs.
<Ok>
Ok, here we go... Last week I bought a 7" False Personifer Angel from my LFS, (I didn't quarantine her)
<Mistake...>
and she's now showing signs of Ich. Just so you know, I had a mild Ich outbreak about 6 months ago, didn't have a QT so I dosed the DT with Quinine phosphate and in 10 days the fish looked wonderful. I understand dosing the DT is a huge no no, but I panicked and like I said, had no QT at the time. Yesterday, when I first noticed the spots I immediately dosed with Quinine phosphate again. I also just invested in a 55 gallon QT setup which is now up and running with bioballs seeded from my DT. A little too late but better than never I guess... I realize now that my tank has been infected for some time now and that I must let it go fallow for 8-10 weeks. My question is since I dosed the DT should I just wait till they (hopefully) get better to transfer them to the 55 so I can let my DT clear up?
<For what purpose?>
Maybe it'll be less stressful for them then?
<Then what?>
Also, do you think my 55 QT will be big enough for all my fishes for 10 weeks?
<Not>
Does my Flagtail Blanquillo need sand in the QT? I'm gonna put pieces of PVC for them to hide in so hopefully not. The Quinine says to wait 5 days then do a water change and re-dose for anything over 125 gallons. But I've been reading that people do it every three days and re-dose accordingly?
<... once treatment w/ CP is sufficient...>
I'd greatly appreciate any
advice. Thanks so much!
Best Regards,
-Jay
<Keep reading, till you understand. B>
Re: Marine Ich
Ok, by CP do you mean Cupramine?
<Chloroquine Phosphate...
My understanding is that my Dog Face Puffer will not tolerate it which is why I went with the Quinine... I thought they might have a less stressful trip to the QT after the treatment as opposed to right this moment. The DT is already dosed so why move them right now? And the purpose of moving them is to let my DT go fallow attempting to rid the tank of Ich once and for all. There is no excuse for not having/using a QT however I don't think QT would have helped in this situation being that my DT was/is infected with Ich already.
<Doubtful>
My fish seem to have gotten somewhat tolerant of it and just scratch from time to time. I guess the U/V helps keep it under control a little bit. The Angel has already lost her spots, not quite "salty" looking yet, so maybe I caught it in time?
<Again>
They are all eating, and the pH is constantly being monitored and buffered when needed. Just so you know, I do read a lot in your site. I was just hoping to get useful advice. What size QT do you recommend?
<Posted>
Should I just get another 55 and split the fish up that way? I'm sorry if I'm being a pain. It's been a tough day for me on many levels.
Thanks again,
Best Regards...
-Jay
<Keep reading>
Re: Marine Ich
Thanks or the help...
-Jay
>Welcome<
Re: Marine Ich   4/20/11
Hi again,
<JK>
Just an update and a few questions.. Well, I'm on the 5th day of treating with Quinine Sulfate in the DT. I thought it was Quinine <Chloroquine?> Phosphate, my mistake. Anyway, all of my fish are fine except the Personifer. He's still covered with salty Ich every morning, then by night time he's only got a few spots. I was hoping to not see many spots this morning being it's the 5th day, but he's still covered.
He's moving around, but not accepting any food for 3 days now. He's not breathing heavy, but he extends his gills outward every so often.
He doesn't seem to be terribly unhappy at this point. I'm thinking about what I should do next... My thoughts were either do a water change and re dose with the quinine, or give him a pH/temp/salinity matched RO water bath then a 8-10 second Methylene Blue bath and then put him into quarantine and start treating with Cupramine. The store I bought him from I just found out "runs copper" through all of his tanks,
<More common than not>
thus masking any parasitic disease the fishes may have.
<Mmm, hopefully treating epizootics rather than "masking">
What a sweatshop, I'll never buy from him again. I just know if he went back to his tanks, he'd be fine in a day. But we had a falling out
yesterday. I confronted him about the Ich, and he of course replied, "He was fine here" with a "con man" type of smirk. Then I confronted him about his use of therapeutic copper in his tanks and he just freaked out, I guess because his customers were standing there... So there's no going back there. He has a convenient "no return" policy...
I know, why did I buy from him? I'm still asking myself that... As you can see I'm really at a "touchy" sort of crossroad here and could really use some expert advice... Thanks so much in advance.
-Jay
<... welcome. B>
Re: Marine Ich... treatment choices; Cu vs. QS   4/20/11
Hi,
Thanks for the quick reply! You guys are awesome.
The bottle says Quinine Sulfate.?
<... why did you state otherwise?>
And just to clarify, should I water change and redose or take him out and give him baths and treat with copper in QT.?
<? Keep reading. On WWM... re Cu and Quinine use. B>
Thanks so much!
-Jay
Re: Marine Ich    4/20/11
Sorry, I get them mixed up. I just needed an answer to a very serious problem. I am/have been reading, but I don't want to watch this fish die while I search for the exact answer to my problem. I was just looking for your expert opinion.
Thank you anyway.
-Jay
Jay... sorry to state, but you have not provided enough data to do anything other than direct you to study what we have archived. It will/would just take too long for us to go back and forth trying to thresh out your situation. The choice of treatments/moda is up to you (of course). B
Re: Marine Ich    4/20/11
Understood... I just can't figure out why the Quinine Sulfate hasn't worked on this one fish?
<Mmm, could be a few influences... absorption (the list is long, again...), poor/low concentration of the product you're using, a hyperinfective state of the causative organism...>
I've had great success with it in the past.
Oh well.
Thanks Bob!
<Welcome Jay. B>

Marine Ich and what really to do, read  -- 3/11/11
WetWeb Crew
<Jas>
I have a question or two regarding the treatment of Ich. My g. loreto seems to have it, the usual signs. Scratching/flashing, hiding under a powerhead, white spots, was eating fine until last night when I tried brine shrimp with spirulina to get my C. Argi to eat. I have two other fish in the tank, a A. percula and a C. Argi. All the tank parameters I test for are normal. Nitrites 0 Ammonia 0 pH 8.1 Alk 10.0 dKH my nitrates are a little high at 10 ppm. I corals ranging from Sps to softies as well as shrimp, crabs, snails, starfish. None of the other fish are exhibiting this behavior. The C. Argi was my last fish I added two days ago (this Ich thing was going before that and I'll explain more in minute). I think I covered the basics of the tank I hope. The g. loreto is 4 tank years old by the way. I noticed the gramma had these symptoms a couple weeks ago but the "Ich" disappeared, it went back to normal before I had a chance to treat it (that is how I ruled out the C. Argi being a carrier). However over the last 3 or 4 days (before I got the C. Argi), it has returned with a vengeance. This morning it was covered in white spots. No I did not QT the C. Argi and yes I made a mistake in not doing so. Now my question is though, what is the best approach to treating?
<... really... removing all fishes elsewhere (to a treatment tank)... and a Quinine cpd. Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures2.htm and here: http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinSciUseF.htm
and the linked files above...>
Copper is out due to the angelfish, and Hypo-salinity has mixed reactions even on WWM. Also I think I read that hypo-salinity isn't very good and potentially dangerous to clownfish (A. percula in my situation). So please advise on what to do.
Thanks a ton guys
P.S. I know I just got my Cherub angelfish two days ago and I have tried feeding three separate foods. Brine with spirulina, spirulina flakes and mysis. I know its only been a couple days but this is a fish I have been waiting to get and I have read they are pretty hardy. I think this is normal but any advice on how to entice it?
<Use the search tool on WWM>
I should have quarantined retrospect but what's done is done. This is my "prize" fish. I have taken an extreme liking to pygmy angels and this seemed to be the less like to nip at corals and stay the smallest (potentially the one of the most aggressive)and be the most hardy and ready to except prepared food.
So I am being an over protective parent. Sorry for the long winded rant.
Jason Knoff
<Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ich and what really to do   3/15/11
Bob
<Jason>
I want to thank you for a fast response and an update. Unfortunately I wasn't able to read your reply until today 15th due to an emergency on Friday. With said emergency I was unable to treat my little gramma and he or she passed that day. I waited too long to treat. Again, thanks for the advice and help
Jason
<Welcome. BobF>

Niger Trigger Illness, Crypt reading   2/12/11
Hi guys
<And gals Chris>
I have a niger trigger that is just over a year in my system. Over Christmas, a new fish addition brought in a case of Ich to the tank
<... no quarantine>
that caused fatalities of the new fish, my year old P. Volitans, year old Clown trigger and (unrelated death) of my 6 month old snowflake moray eel. There was also an issue with poor water quality, namely the pH dropped down several points, a full point over the course of a week while I was out of town, to around 6.4-6.6.
<Yeeikes!>
Within several days of finding the extremely low pH, I lost most of the livestock.
The two surviving fish in the tank were the niger and my red Coris wrasse. The wrasse is fine with no health issues apparent, but the niger has been fighting symptoms of Ich and possibly other diseases on a regular basis for over a month now. Several times spots have come and gone, as well as her eyes becoming very cloudy and a total lack of movement from the fish for the most part. I have tried multiple treatments for the fish, starting with a fresh water dip initially, moving into an isolation tank afterwards with Metronidazole dosed, after the metro was unsuccessful I tried copper (for a very short period of time, until she was housed into a larger isolation tank) Herbtana was used in the main display and finally two Methylene blue dips of less than ten seconds each. Her appetite was healthy still with food presented to her where she could reach it without having to see, fed meaty foods soaked in Vitamin-M and Garlic. Over the last week, her spots have come back and her appetite has gone, no eating that I know of in the last 5-7 days. The spots seem to change from a dusting like sand over her body to more of a scaly, rash-like appearance that covers her body.
Today I also noticed that part of her upper streamer on her tail is starting to degrade.
I am starting a dose cycle of Artemiss, after leaving the tank in a hyposaline solution of 1.015 and with no medication for the last three weeks. I also saw today that her eyes have started becoming more cloudy, with mucous streamers coming off of one of them. I am very worried about this fish, I have been very attached to her over the last year.
Asking around with my fellow reef and fish club members in town, also checking with the LFS has brought no real results except for the suggestion of writing in to you guys for advice. Anything you could tell me will be greatly helpful.
<... Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptcures1.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Thank you again for your swift and informative response, and thank you for the site. It is an amazing resource for hobbyists with an immense knowledge base. Keep up the good work, guys
Chris Hinsley
Re: Niger Trigger Illness  2/12/11
Thank you for your response, Bob.
<Welcome Chris>
Last night when I came home from work and class I discovered the trigger had passed away.
Thank you again for your help and advice. I have definitely changed my quarantine procedures in the last two months, and will not let this happen again.
Thanks again,
Chris
<Life to you, BobF>

sick fish and no answer's... Iatrogenic prob.s, no reading, RMF   2/4/11
<Capitals?> i have a 125 saltwater reef with a 33gal refugium that is one year old. I have numerous fish and corals.
a few weeks ago I purchased a yellow eye tang and after a few days he developed white spots on him.
<No quarantine...>
I thought to my self oh boy here we go, but the next morning not a spot on him.
<Cycled off... cycled...>
a couple of days go by and then again just covered from head to tail with white spots, and later that day they were all gone again. only the yellow eye in the tank is getting them. this went on for a week and I noticed the white spots on him again and a sore, open wound, and covered with white spots. that evening the strawberry Dottyback was covered with them head to tail like it was covered with salt
but a clear liquid that kept the white spots off of it about a 16th of an inch. the next morning both were belly up.
later that day I notice white spots on my clown fish but only a few very tiny spots. but then my dragon goby later that same day was covered head to tail and went into hiding, the unicorn tang had cloudy eyes so I started treating with Melafix,
<... worthless>
after two day his eyes cleared up, I caught the two clown fish and put them in a quarantine tank
<... too late for quarantine>
with copper. I
finally caught the dragon goby two days ago and put him in the qt tank. he was in bad shape, losing scales and open sores all over. he looked like he was getting better after one day but died this morning along with the one clown fish that had it just a little. yesterday my unicorn tang started getting white spots. very little ones, and he was scratching like mad.
in fact all my fish were scratching really bad two days ago and now there not, today the white spots seem to be going away. the hole weird thing about it is all my other fish don't have a spot on them. ( 3 Anthias Lyretails, 1 watchman goby, 2 cleaner wrasse, 2 dragon faced pipe fish, 1 big yellow tang, 1 clown tang, 1 emerald wrasse?,
<All subclinical. Assuredly they are infested though>
1 lawnmower, 1 purple sided wrasse, and my pride and joy the unicorn tang. I probable forgot one or two fish. I thought it was velvet at first but then thought it was Ich,, still don't know what it could be. all the fish are eating and in good health. water is all good. corals are all open. I've lost 4 fish since Sunday morning, two this morning, not a speck on any of the fish except the unicorn and he seems to be clearing up, I did install a 38 watt UV light four days ago. it seems to be making a difference.
have you ever heard of something like this and what do you think it could be?
<Likely Cryptocaryon...>
my daughter has a microscope and I was checking bugs ( microorganisms in the tank)
<Not there, on the fishes... skin scraping...>
last night but I cant find a book to reference them,
<See works by Ed Noga>
to find out what they are. any ideas? I have captured some of the images from the microscope on my computer with a electronic eye piece. cool looking images of copepods.
any help would be greatly appreciated.
thank you
any help or point in the right direction is greatly appreciated.
Goetz
<Start by reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/cryptidfaqs1.htm
and the linked files above, and here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittkfaq2.htm and... Bob Fenner>
sick fish and no answer's, ala Alex   2/4/11
I have a 125 saltwater reef with a 33 gal refugium that is one year old. I have numerous fish and corals.
A few weeks ago I purchased a yellow eye tang and after a few days he developed white spots on him.
<Oh no! Hopefully he was quarantined to protect your lovely main tank.>
I thought to my self oh boy here we go, but the next morning not a spot on him. A couple of days go by and then again just covered from head to tail with white spots, and later that day they were all gone again. Only the yellow eye in the tank is getting them.
<Oh. In the tank, not quarantined. Not good. Since he introduced it, he shows signs sooner. The others take time to get to the visible stage.
Just like humans and the common cold, we are contagious long before we show signs.>
This went on for a week and I noticed the white spots on him again and a sore, open wound, and covered with white spots. That evening the strawberry Dottyback was covered with them head to tail like it was covered with salt but a clear liquid that kept the white spots off of it about a 16th of an inch. The next morning both were belly up. <So sad. It spreads.>
Later that day I notice white spots on my clown fish but only a few very tiny spots. But then my dragon goby later that same day was covered head to tail and went into hiding. The unicorn tang had cloudy eyes so I started treating with Melafix <Bob does not approve of this, but I believe it is useful for fungal infections>, after two day his eyes cleared up. I caught the two clown fish and put them in a quarantine tank with copper.
<Good. Prevention is the best cure, quarantine tanks are best used before not after. You need to treat all the fish.> I finally caught the dragon goby two days ago and put him in the QT. He was in bad shape, losing scales and open sores all over. <Secondary infections will need antibiotics also.>
He looked like he was getting better after one day but died this morning along with the one clown fish that had it just a little. <Body count 4. The spots don't necessarily indicate how bad they have it. Their gills are infested before they show spots, if at all.>
Yesterday my unicorn tang started getting white spots. Very little ones, and he was scratching like mad. In fact all my fish were scratching really bad two days ago and now they are not, today the white spots seem to be going away. The whole weird thing about it is all my other fish don't have a spot on them. <All have been exposed. Some will show outward signs, some will not. Some may be able to fight the infection naturally if they are strong and healthy and in good conditions.> ( 3 Anthias Lyretails, 1 watchman goby, 2 cleaner wrasses <Please don't support the removal of Labroides from our oceans. see: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/labroide.htm>,
2 dragon faced pipe fish, 1 big yellow tang, 1 clown tang, 1 emerald wrasse?, 1 lawnmower, 1 purple sided wrasse, and my pride and joy the unicorn tang. I probably forgot one or two fish. <?> I thought it was velvet at first but then thought it was Ich. I still don't know what it could be. <It could be either from what you describe. Copper is the treatment for both. But of course they must ALL be removed to the hospital tank(s) to eradicate it with certainty.> All the fish are eating and in good <apparent outward> health <except the dead ones>.
Water is all good.
Corals are all open. I've lost 4 fish since Sunday morning, two this morning. <It is worth the hassle of quarantining to avoid sacrificing 6+ fish for one new addition. The death toll may not be over.>
Not a speck on any of the fish except the unicorn and he seems to be clearing up.
<This is good. Hopefully, possibly they have fought it off.>
I did install a 38 watt UV light four days ago. It seems to be making a difference.
<It could be. I have had success eliminating an Ich infestation with a UV sterilizer and the addition of cleaner shrimp. (or luck?)>
Have you ever heard of something like this and what do you think it could be? <Many pages of info here. I believe you are on the right track now.
Velvet progresses very rapidly. Most likely it is Ich.>
My daughter has a microscope and I was checking bugs ( microorganisms in the tank) Last night but I cant find a book to reference them, to find out what they are. Any ideas? I have captured some of the images from the microscope on my computer with a electronic eye piece. Cool looking images of copepods.
<Fun!! I love looking at microscopic tank critters.>
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
<The cycle can continue to repeat even though they look better. Best to remove all fish to the hospital tank. Keep the reef tank fish-free for a month to kill all the parasites. Read...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptfaqs.htm >
Thank you.
Any help or point in the right direction is greatly appreciated.
<Always quarantine new fish. I have made this mistake too. I won't again.
Test your water quality parameters (best to include the numbers with queries like this), and do everything to provide the best conditions you can.
Read, read, read...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/infectio.htm is a good general article and has references cited for further reading.
There are many pages of FAQs about ID of disease links at the top to other pages.
This is a painful way to learn to always, always, always quarantine new fish.>
<<Also, please in the future use capitalization and proper spelling and word use (their/there/they're for example). It takes time that we could be answering other questions to edit so that we can publish on the website.
Thank you.>>
<Alex>
Goetz

Main tank Ich? Marine Crypt 1/19/11
Good afternoon crew,
<Hello>
I hope all is well on your end.
<It's cold here, wish I was diving with Bob in Mexico, but otherwise fine.>
After thoroughly reading up on the suggested links and consulting various local fish shops, and giving the fish some time to hopefully battle the parasites naturally, I have decided I'd rather not take the risk and force them to battle it on their own for much longer. The Ich doesn't seem to be getting any better, and the general census I received from my LFS was "there's nothing you can do" about treating or even trying to help the fish whilst still in the main tank.
<I would agree with this, treating in the main tank usually causes even more problems.>
Therefore, I am thinking of moving my blue tang into the 10 gallon quarantine tank with my Foxface. The blue tang is about 2.5-3 inches, and the Foxface is about 3 inches big. Would a 10 gallon suffice for about 8 weeks while I leave my main tank fallow, given water changes every 3-5 days for these two fish?
<I think you would have problems in such a small tank, a 20 or 29 gallon would probably be more feasible.>
I know both fish require a 75+ gallon main tank (mine is 110), but I am asking because they won't simply be in there for a regular 2 week quarantine, but rather a substantially longer amount of time, which is why I'm worried they might feel very cramped in the 10 gallon quarantine. Any other suggestions if the 10 gallon is too small?
<To me a 40G breeder would be ideal, they are usually pretty cheap and you don't need fancy filters and such for a QT so can be done fairly economically.>
For the porc, I stumbled upon a suggestion from I believe it was Amanda (at WWM) to just simply use a large ~20gallon rubber-maid container as a temporary quarantine while the main tank is left fallow.
<Yes, these rubber-maid tubs work well.>
I know the ridiculous amount of waste porcs create, as when he was in my 10 gallon, I was literally doing water changes almost everyday, if not every other day. This is why (and also space issues) I believe he would be better off in a separate container for himself. Will the plastic container be safe for the porc?
<As long as it is a "food grade" container it should be fine, again the bigger the better.>
Or does he need a glass aquarium in order to stay in there for a longer period of time (8 weeks)?
<Either is fine.>
Also, would it be safe to medicate in the plastic container using Nox-ich?
<Nox-ich is Malachite Green, which is pretty rough stuff in general. The container should be fine, but I would investigate other medications. One of the Quinine drugs would be my first choice. See here for a starting point http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php ,
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm .>
Or how should I go about treating the plastic container for Ich on the porc? I have an extra air pump with airstone lying around, which should help keep the PH in check (I do this when mixing my water, and it works great) but are there any other methods I can practice in terms of filtration, and keeping the water levels stable?
<A simple sponge filter with the airstone is probably best since most likely the medication will wipe out any bacteria and be only of marginal use. Water changes are the name of the game here.>
Just looking for approval/thoughts on the steps I have decided to take.
Anything I can do to the main tank aside from leaving it fallow for 8 weeks to ensure that all the Ich has been eradicated?
<Raise the temp a little to help speed up the parasites lifecycle when the tank is fallow.>
Thank you very much for any advice,
Fahd.
<Welcome>
<Chris>
Re: Main tank Ich? Marine Crypt 1/20/11
Good evening Chris, thanks for the speedy reply.
<Welcome>
So do you suggest that I use two rubber maid tubs since the 10 gallon is too small?
<This would be better.>
Or will the tang be okay in the rubber maid with the porcupine puffer? Not very likely huh?
<It would definitely be better to split them up.>
Forgive me, but I am just trying to find the cheapest alternative, school fee's cost a pretty penny or two =(.
<No problem.>
Regards,
Fahd.
<Chris>

recurring Ich problem 1/13/11
Hi Bob,
<J & G>
First of all thanks so much for your wonderful website. I've been reading it for about 6 years now and get all my information from you.
<I do hope/trust not all. A good idea to "scout around", look for underlying science, rationale>
My problem is recurring Cryptocaryon that I've been fighting on and off for years. I have a 750 liter marine reef tank with an ecosystem sump, a skimmer, chiller, lots of live rock and only a few corals at the moment.
All my water parameters are good and I'm currently housing only a few fish: 1 yellow tang, 1 convict tang,
<Social animals, manini/A. triostegus>
1 raccoon butterfly fish, I large algae blenny?, 1 Tomatoe clown and 1 tank bred ocellaris clown. Except for the ocellaris clown - who is in a treatment tank at the moment and the Tomatoe clown - still in the main tank- all fish seem healthy, happy and are eating well, with no signs of Ich. I isolated the ocellaris as he was covered with white spots and looking bad (I had two and the female died over night). I am now contemplating of how to tackle the crypt once again.
<Best indirectly... through foods, improved water quality (high, steady RedOx), and the use of cleaner organisms:
http://wetwebmedia.com/clnrfaqs.htm
Among many attempts I have once before emptied the main tank and let it go fallow for 9 weeks, returned the treated fish which were definitely Ich free, only to see them get infected in the main tank again.
<Ah yes... experienced many times...>
From what I understand from your comments on Cryptocaryon "daughter colonies of Cryptocaryon can wait for months sometimes in the main tank" and "once a system is infected it is very hard to eradicate the parasite completely".
<Yes; this is so>
So I was hoping to strike a healthy balance by keeping my water parameters good and stabilizing the system, and obviously, most of my fish can cope with the parasites as they have probably build up immunity against the Ich.
<I do agree w/ this stand>
However, when I want to add new fish, I go through the quarantine process, add them to my system - and they get infected straight away! So here are my many questions:
1. What is the absolute maximum time these critters can hold out in a fallow tank, 3 months, 6 months, or more?
<Mmm, more absolutely>
2. If I let the tank go fallow will it help to lower the salinity, or will it encourage the cysts to go into hibernation and wait for more optimal conditions to hatch?
<You can "speed up" their life cycle or slow it in a few ways. Lowering the salinity can do both, depending on, again, a few factors>
3. What is the absolute min. spg the eco system with its miracle mud and Caulerpa can handle? And what about the life rock and few corals?
<Variable by species, condition... 1.012 for the first two, though the drop may spur on a death event of the Algae. The life on/in/as the rock can likely tolerate even lower density... Corals... some are very sensitive; best not exposed>
4. What are my chances of actually ridding the established system of Cryptocaryon - I know this is a tricky question - but if this was your system would you try and tackle it, considering that best part of my fish are actually happy at the moment?
<By optimizing the environment, the health of the livestock through nutrition... perhaps through administration of CP through foods:
http://wetwebmedia.com/QuinDosingF.htm
But than, if I don't rid it completely, how do I introduce new fish to and infested tank?
<Mmm, "carefully"; best by "mixing" water twixt the systems... over a period of weeks, months...>
5. What are your thoughts on a new treatment from Canada for reef systems - "Medic - by polyp lab", which is basically crystallized peroxide.
<http://polyplab.com/medic.html>
Would the system benefit from this while it runs fallow?
<Have no experience w/ this product, ingredient for the stated purposes... But not likely (very) toxic>
6. And my last question - I live on the Sunshine Coast in Queensland/Australia
<Oh! Have a good friend who lives, teaches at University there... his mum is in Brisbane to the N.>
and get my water from the ocean (okay, not right now with all our torrential rains and all the flooding, but normally I do get good water here.) If I were able to rid my system of Ich, would I be re-introducing it again with the ocean water? If yes, how could I treat the water to kill the parasite?
<There are a few protocols... which HAVE to be administered w/ CARE. The best in general is the use of Chlorine (bleach) and its subsequent (days later) removal via (Sodium) Thiosulfate/Hyposulfite... and testing! (for free Cl)>
Thank you so much for all your advice in advance, kind regards, Jana
<A pleasure to share Jana. Bob Fenner>
Re: recurring Ich problem 1/13/11
Thank you, Bob, will do. Just to clarify: When you say introducing new fish "carefully"; best by "mixing" water twixt the systems period of weeks, months ... ..do you mean, introducing treated or quarantined fish to the pathogens by mixing main tank water to the quarantine tank to expose and build up the fishes immunity?
<Mmm, no... sorry for the confusion. I mean/t mixing water back and forth twixt main/display and QT systems if/when all are deemed to be non-infested>
In case of the clownfish, once he is Ich-free - and he gets re-infected, treat again - introduce again, until he gets immune to the disease?
Another question as well. I noticed today along stringy white faeces hanging of the clownfish, is this connected to the crypt or another internal parasite.
<Can be...>
And how long does it take a male clownfish on his own before he changes into a female?
<Months to never with sparse feeding>
Many thanks again, regards, Jana
<Welcome! Bob Fenner>