Queen Angel/ Fire Shrimp
Big Fish- Bigger Problems? (Stocking Compromises) 11/19/07
Hi WWM,
<Hey there! Scott F. on the bridge of the WWM starship tonight!>
My name is Tom, and I have a few Questions about my tank. I have a 100 gallon tank with a Large Yellow Tang, 2 Percula Clownfish, a Copperband Butterfly, a Blue Hippo Tang, 2 Small Damsels, a Purple Lobster, 2 Fire Shrimp, an African Red Starfish, and 4 Turbo Snails.
I also have 110 lbs of live sand and a whole lot of live rock. I have just introduced a Queen Angelfish to my tank.
<Oh, man- "buzz kill" time, sorry. That's a pretty serious crowd for this sized aquarium! What do this aquarium, a can of sardines, and the WWM Crew after a free MACNA buffet have in common? "I know, Scott- they're things that are STUFFED!" Exactly. Think about the long-term implications of such a packed aquarium. The Hippo Tang and the Queen Angel are HUGE fishes when they mature (the Queen can hit 18 inches in length and the Hippo pretty close), and require very large aquariums to accommodate them for anything close to their potential natural life spans (decades). Time to start shopping for a larger aquarium.>
It was pretty shy at first, but now it chases the blue Hippo Tang and Copperband and it pretty aggressive towards them. Is this normal and will this behavior fade? (same thing happened with the Yellow Tang, but it wasn't as aggressive) The Angelfish hasn't bit off and fins or caused damage to any of the fish.
<This may very well change! Like a thirsty frat boy at a keg party, the Queen Angel will get meaner and meaner until it gets what it wants- total domination of the aquarium! These fishes have a reputation for extreme territoriality in the wild and in captivity, and this will be magnified significantly in a crowded aquarium. I'd consider giving these potentially larger fishes to aquarists who have the quarters to accommodate them comfortably.>
My second problem is that the Angelfish has been bothering my fire shrimp. It has bitten off some of their claws and legs. I have separated the shrimp and put them in a separate container in the same tank allowing plenty of water flow.
<Good move and quick thinking. In this case, there is certainly potential for the shrimp to become either Angelfish chew toys, or the appetizer for their next meal!>
I am going to care for them until they regrow their limbs in their next few molt. (Hopefully it works...) I was just wondering if it is unsafe to keep any type of shrimp or crab in the same tank as the angelfish?
<I'd be hesitant with the larger angels...the potential exists for an unhappy outcome if they are kept together. It's not 100% certain, but it's a possible risk.>
I have been told that they could be in the same tank, but obviously not in mine. Is this a big problem? Would coral banded shrimp or cleaner shrimp be better to have? (also been bothering my snails, but no damage)
<I would feel better with Cleaner shrimps in there, but again- fish are like people, and have unique personalities. Perhaps your Angel has some sort of crazy vendetta against shrimp because of an unfortunate incident hat occurred after the fish settled out of its pelagic stage...Perhaps it was imply in an ornery mood that day. Who knows? Regardless, I'd take the cue and not house this fish with shrimps. Of course, given your aquarium's size, I wouldn't keep this fish, either!>
I like fish a lot but I also like a lot of inverts too.
<Yep- can relate. I like seared Ahi Tuna but my budget usually screams "Starkist"! Such is life! Really, the solution to a successful mixed aquarium with fishes and inverts is to choose compatible animals. In other words, if you like delicate stony corals and you love Teardrop Butterflyfish, you're going to have to compromise- separate aquariums, or a different species of Butterfly that's planktivorous.>
I would like to have a tank filled (but not overfilled) with all kinds of life. Would it be best to take the Angel back to the store?
<Absolutely! This is a very conscientious approach, and I'm proud of you for learning! It's better for all parties involved here! In the hobby, like in life, you can't have it all, but might be able to have most of it!>
Thanks for your time,
Tom
<My pleasure, Tom- keep learning and sharing! Regards, Scott F.>

Large Angel Question, Compatibility; Fish Only Marine, large messy fish  5/31/07
Hey crew,
<Hi Joe.>
Kudos on all the great info (as always).
<Thanks.>
I've recently stumbled onto a piece of info on the web that concerns me and I want to bounce it off you for a sanity check since there is so much MIS-information on the web.
<No problem.>
My question revolves around stocking and compatibility.
<Okay.>
First I'll give you my tank set-up.
240g (96x24x24) w/ over 300lbs of LR, Aqua C EV-240 skimmer w/ Mag 12 pump, Dart return pump 10+ cycles per hr, Amiracle 400 dual Wet-Dry Filter, Retro PC lights, lunars, etc.
<Sounds adequate.>
Current stock list: 8" Volitans Lion, 6-7" Miniatus Grouper, 25+" Snowflake Moray Planned/Proposed List: Yellow Tang, Queen Angel, Harlequin Tusk Wrasse, and possibly a Naso or Sohal Tang (If I remove the Grouper, depends on his behavior)
<Well if you decide on going with the Sohal, you likely won't want to add any other surgeons.>
My questions are these.
<Okay.>
1. I read on another site that the Queen Angel should NOT be house with a Lion or Grouper. This was the only time I had ever heard that and I was told on another forum that the Angel would pick at the Lion.
<Is a possibility, large angels are quite territorial and despite their obvious defenses lions are much more prone to being on the losing end of a fight than most people will admit. SO I wouldn't say there is a guarantee the angel will go after the lion but it is a risk to consider as well.>
This is a SHOCKER as I currently have the 6" Yellow Tang & 6" Queen in my 75g QT tank. Can you confirm any of this info?
<See above ^^ .>
2. How does that stocking list look to you?
<You've got large and messy fish, some that are potentially aggressive/territorial. Close attention must be paid to water quality and behavior/health.>
The only one that concerns me is my Miniatus (even though he is just gorgeous). Should I be concerned?
<I would say cautious, and watching for signs of "foul play.">
I thought I would test the grouper with the yellow tang before I risk my Queen. Like a pawn in chess you know...risk the tang and protect the queen.
<Let me know how it goes.>
Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
<Anytime.>
Joe
<Adam J.>

Queen Angel, comp.    5/21/07
Hi,
     I have a Juwel
<Proper nouns are capitalized...>
Rio 400 with a Eheim wet/dry  external. fluvial external, 30w U.V sterilizer, aqua medic protein skimmer, live  rock and a sander ozonizer, it has been established for 24 months.
I currently have a 5" coral sea black dog face puffer, 6" Australian harlequin Tuskfish and a pair of percula clowns. I have seen a 3" queen angel at  my LFS, do you think he would be compatible with my other fish.
I plan to upgrade to at least a 800 litre tank in the next 12 -  18 months.                                                                             
               Thanks                                                                               
                         Kev
                                                                              
                             Manchester (UK)
<Well, there is always some chance of incompatibility but if your Puffer and Tusk have not consumed the Clowns... I give you good odds here... Though I do wish you had the larger tank already... Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Queen Angel eating cleanup-crew?  3/1/07
I'm a newbie,
<Welcome.>
this is our first tank and we're really excited!
<Congrats!>
  It's a 72gallon with a wet/dry filter.  
<Protein Skimmer?>
We have a lot of rock and the tank has properly cycled.  
<Not with the damsels I hope?>
We currently have 4 damselfish and would like to add 1 yellow tang.
<Would remove damsels first.>
After the tang settles in, our final fish would be a Queen Angel.  
<Probably one of the best choices as far as angels go, but will not live to adulthood in this size tank, just FYI.>
In about 2 years I realize the Queen will outgrow our tank...
<Good..
at that time I'm considering upgrading to a 180gallon or trading the fish in.
<Okay.>
Is that a good idea...being ethical to the Queen Angel?
<If you can guarantee the angel ill have a home once it has outgrown yours.>
Also will the Queen Angel eat a clean up crew?
<The usual fair like snails and hermits and the like? No.>
THANKS!!
<Of course.>
Aroon
<Adam J.>

Comments on Angel vs. Angel vs. Surgeon…. Queen A, Sohal T comp.   2/20/07
Dear Crew,
<Hi Chad….AJ with you this evening.>
I thought I'd send in a comment on some behavior I observed when adding a 7" Queen Angel to my tank.
<Okay.>
My main concern when adding the Queen was my 4" Passer Angel.
< A very valid concern.>
I'd been looking for a large Queen Angel for a long time and pounced when I saw it. I'd seen other smaller Queens but passed because I was sure my Passer would not tolerate the addition of a similar sized Angel.
<Adult Angel’s usually don’t tolerate the presence of other animals/fish let alone another Angel.>
Well, suffice it to say, I had my fingers crossed on one hand and a net ready in the other (I have a refugium which I could've moved the Queen to if it got ugly). I was relieved to see the Passer ignore the Queen almost completely, he showed some irritation but there were no fights.
<I would compare his irritation to that of a little brother, who is just biding his time until he grows up and can “thump” big brother…..he doesn’t act now because it wouldn’t be smart.>
I'm positive the Queen's size was THE deciding factor in this.
<Likely a very important factor in establishing the “alpha-role.”>
But to my dismay, my 4" Sohal Tang was utterly furious!
<Unfortunately this is predictable behavior for the Surgeon.>
He was actively chasing down and attacking the Queen. Which actually
made him quite easy to catch, I simply put a net between the two and he swam right in. I tried separating them for 24 hours, didn't work, same exact reaction.
<The Sohal is notoriously territorial….if they weren’t…I would have one, hehe, they are beautiful fish.>
So I moved the Sohal to another tank for two weeks. The other tank is only 55 gallons, he was acting strange, looked like he felt confined, so I thought I'd give it another try.
> this I surmise the display is quite large.>
I added the Sohal back to my main tank today and everything went smoothly. The Passer, Queen, and Sohal are all existing peacefully in my tank, at least for now.
<Operative phrase being “for now” do keep an eye out.>
I thought this would benefit some readers out there.
<Yes, thank you for sharing.>
It just goes to show that 1. nothing is guaranteed in this hobby
<Agreed.>
2. heed the advice given by our friends at WWM, If you're going to take risks in compatibility, be prepared to separate if something unforeseen happens. Have an escape plan! I was glad I did.
<Thanks…and planning ahead is good…impulses can really hurt you, as far as livestock goes, in this hobby.>
And 3. Sohals, and fish in general can be mean!
<Very True.>
I just thought it was so strange that my Sohal had completely ignored EVERY other addition, and yet took on a fish twice its size.
<For some reason (likely the size a factor) the Sohal felt that this addition was a threat to his dominance.>
I was just glad I was prepared. If I'd thrown the Queen in and turned off the lights, I would've woken up to a very bad situation.
Thanks
<Thank you.>
Chad
<AJ.>
P.S. I appreciate the work you guys/girls do for the hobby. Your web site is addictive!
<Thanks again and good luck.>

More Than One Angel- A Long Term View ... Scotter's go  - 06/06/2006
I have a juvenile Queen Angel about 2 inches (been in the tank a week)  in a 150 gal tank. no other Angels...would it be safe to add another Angel of larger size, like a Personifer or Asfur, or  would it be better to add a Flame or another Dwarf Angel? Only thing that worries about adding a Dwarf Angel now is it would be relatively the same size as the queen... any other recommendations if you disagree with this?
Thank you,
Alan
<Well, Alan- your approach is okay if you are planning on having more than one Angel. Always try to utilize Angels from different genera. However, you really need to think of the "end game" here: Your Queen Angel can and will hit close to 18" as an adult, and it will need a tank of 200-300 gallons or more (and 8' in length) to accommodate it for anything approaching its natural life span (may be up to 15-20 years!). Adding another Angel into the mix is potentially problematic in the long run, unless you'll have housing for both of them. If anything, try the Centropyge (Flame) Angel, as it is significantly smaller, and will generally mix okay with the Queen, provided the fish is added while the Queen is still a juvenile. Again, I caution you to think about the long term, and how much room these fish truly require. To live in even a 150 gallon tank for the rest of its life would be like you spending the rest of your life in your living room...possible, but miserable. These guys need lots of space to move around in, and they can be territorial in even large tanks. Unless you've got a much bigger tank in the future, I'd stick with one Angel. Best of luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Marine angels comp. RMF's annotated response...  - 06/06/2006
I have a juvenile queen about 2 inches (been in the tank a week)  in a 150 gal tank.. no other angels... would it be safe to add another angel of larger size like a Personifer or asfur or  would it be better to add a flame or another dwarf angel... only thing that worries about adding a dwarf angel now is it would be relatively the same size as the queen... any other recommendations if you disagree with this?
Thank you,
Alan
<The Queen itself will outgrow this sized system... and before this dominate, become the alpha specimen... I would not consider permanently adding another large angelfish species, and only a smaller one temporarily. Bob Fenner>
|
Queen Angels
I am very interested in obtaining a Queen Angel for my 90 gal fish only aquarium that has been running 4 1/2 months. I use a trickle filter set up with bio wheel and 10 gal sump, a Pro. skimmer and a More Zone 30 Ozonizer. I 
have 1 Flame Angel 3 inches, Three Spot Angel 4 inches, and 2 Golden Head Sleepers 2 1/2 inches approx., 2 cleaner shrimp & 30-40 lbs of live rock. 
First of all, would I be overloading my tank by adding a 3-4 inch Queen Angel 
(I'm thinking long term)? 
<I think the Queen would be a poor choice, not so much from a crowding standpoint, but behaviorally... with the other two angels... The Queen would get big... much bigger than the others in months... and bully them relentlessly>
Secondly, I have noticed in 3 different local shops in Torrance, Ca that all of the Queen Angels that have been coming in 
have been coming down with what looks like lymphocytes. The fish are all well colored, active and alert. Is this a trend with imported Queens that is currently common?
<Yes, I think so too>
One of the store owners, who I deem very reputable, says that he has noticed a decline in the quality of the Queens over the last year. In fact, he says that he is having more luck with Emperor Angels. Is this true and am I rushing things by looking to add this fish? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>
<You're not rushing yet... I would look for other non-angel livestock for your 90,
Bob Fenner>

Questions re Queen Angel Reef Safe Index...
Hi Bob !!! I have two questions for you regarding the Queen Angel. Firstly, is the queen angel reef safe?
<For a very large system... with lots of filtration... live rock to nibble on tunicates, sponges otherwise... maybe>
I saw them in two of the LFS that I visit regularly and all the corals in the tanks are not damaged at all. Am I right to say that they're reef safe?
<All animals to an extent are "reef safe"... but not really the large marine Angels... they are all subject/suspect to nibble, sample, tear up sessile invertebrates for... food, fun, experience...>
Secondly, since they're known to be disease resistance, does this mean that they will never get any disease at all in an infected tank ?
<Certainly not my friend... perhaps better to consider that they (Holacanthus ciliaris) are inclined to "show" the effects of parasitic, infectious diseases later than other types of fishes...>
Please advice.
<Be seeing you. Bob Fenner>

Queen Angel Compatibility Odds
Hello,
Sorry about sending another question but this will be the last one.
<Yikes, hope you mean "for today"...>
We have the queen trigger in a 75 gallon tank it is about 2 and a half inches in my 125 there is my stars and stripes if I added more rock to the 75 could I put the puffer in there with the queen. The queen is very aggressive about 6 months ago it killed a porcupine puffer that was about the same size but the puffer in the 125 is about 5-7 so do you
think this would be okay?
<Hmm, better odds... likely they will go together... and learn from each other in the larger tank. Bob Fenner>

Queen in Reef
Hi Bob,
<Anthony Calfo in your service>
Just one questions. I have the intentions of purchasing an adult queen angel of size between 3 to 6 inch. Are they reef safe?
<not even close, my friend>
I have lots of corals in my tank and I do not want the queen to destroy my corals. Any advise? Thanks.
<small queens are sometimes well behaved, but most or all over 4" are dangerous and unpredictable. You have a tank of natural food. I would strongly advice against it. Even if safe, they are so strong and aggressive that they will forbid the inclusion of many other small reef fishes that you may want or find necessary for tank maintenance. Anthony>

Question on Queen Angelfish
Hi Bob,
<Steven Pro in this evening.>
I just found your web site and have been mesmerized - reading on and on!
This is the best information I have found to date. Thank you!
<We are glad you have found it educational.>
I have a 210 gallon tank. I have the same dilemma that so many people have - I love the Angelfishes and am wondering about compatibility. Current fish are: 3 1/2" Queen Angel, Flame Angel, 2 Yellow Tangs (one large, one small), Snowflake Moray, 3" Hawaiian Lionfish, 3" Huma Huma Trigger, 2 Chromis, 1 Damsel, 3" Spotted (or Freckled) Hawkfish, 2" Tomato Clown, 4" Longnose Butterflyfish, 5 1/2" Red Coris Wrasse, and 5" Green Bird Wrasse. I had ordered the Queen over the internet, and it is smaller than I'd like. I've had her for 2 weeks. Today I saw a beautiful Queen (5 1/2") at my local store, even at a great price - I wish I had waited for this one. Although I know it is better to get the smaller fish, I feel like a bigger one would really be the "showpiece" of the tank.
<5 1/2" is an ok size for this species.>
I have a few questions.
How fast can I expect the smaller Queen to grow?
<This depends on diet and water quality to a large extent.>
Is there any chance the 2 queens could get along?
<Little to none>
I have read a bit of confusing info on Queens, saying that females would get along, and that they are often found in pairs.
<If you purchased them as a mated pair, that would be one thing, but they are likely to kill each other in your tank.>
Is there a way to determine the sex?
<Not that I know of and would not be helpful anyway. They would still need time and room to court one anther and that could not happen safely in the confines of an aquarium.>
If I forgo the bigger queen now, is there any type of angel that would have a good chance of getting along with the queen?
<No. You already have the Queen and the Flame. It is unlikely you could safely house anymore.>
One of my options, is to take the smaller queen to the store as a trade in, but I will lose a big chunk of money by doing this. Lastly, the small Queen I have seems to have some pinkish splotches/spots on the sides of the back of it's body. I haven't seen that type of thing before. In general it is doing well - eating well, not fighting. Any ideas on what that could be?
<I would double check water quality issues first; pH of 8.2 or higher and under 40 ppm Nitrate. A water change (when properly conducted) is always beneficial.>
Thanks for your help!
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Queen angel
Hi bob
     <You got Cody today!>
          Firstly may I say what a cool sight you have most informative. I have a 6x2x2 fish only tank which currently houses 1 panther grouper 6" 1lion fish (volitans) 6" another loin fish (volitans) also 4" 1 purple moon angel 4" 1 cream angel4".All get on great however I would like to add a 5" queen angel as my final fish. I have been told that you can mix angels as long as they are not from the same genera what is your opinion to this. Also @ the moment I am changing 20 gals every 3weeks do you think that this is enough as I have been told it should be this amount weekly. <I would not add any more angels to this system as you will likely have problems as they grow.  You already have the max, or close to it, bioload for this system.  The water changes should be performed every week to maintain the best water quality.>
PS my sump houses a trickle filter 2x fluidized bed filters 2x UV sterilizers & a large Berlin skimmer + 2x 300 watt heaters + an Eheim 1060 pump for water return.
Best regards Karl from newquay Cornwall UK
< Cody>

Adding a Queen? (1/4/2004)
Mr. Fenner: <Steve Allen tonight.>
Foremost, congrats on an awesome site. <Bob has certainly assembled a wonderful tool here.> I have never asked questions before, but constantly find myself reading different subjects here and have multiple links to this web site that I refer to frequently. Great resource. <I have learned something from it everyday for quite a while.>
Now on to my question. I have a 360g tank with a 100g refugium and a 100g sump. <Sweet> The tank is 99% SPS dominated corals with multiple fish ranging from tangs to smaller fish like Firefish and such. <How many. Even this tank can get overstocked.> I have a rather large batfish (Platax tiera) that has been a model citizen in terms of not picking at any corals, fish, or invertebrates. <So far, may nip later. A beautiful fish for a large tank. Hope it continues to thrive.>
I know someone that is tearing up his tank and I have the opportunity to inherit his 5.5" queen angel. He tells me he is very docile and does not bother any corals, but I want to know if this s a fish that I can trust to maintain such behavior as it matures. <No; also tends to get mean to other fish to.> Also, is he likely to get along well with my other inhabitants? Will he now or eventually pick on  invertebrates (have multiple types of shrimp)? <Tasty treats.> I read the information on the website, but it did not say anything about reef environments. <Most Angels cannot be truly trusted in reefs. Sounds like you have a wonderful set-up here. In your shoes, I would be careful not to upset the balance. You'll have an awful time trying to get that angel back out if it causes problems. Think carefully about this one.>
Thanks, Alberto Perez DiMaggio, MD <Hope this helps.>

- Angelfish & Anemones, Compatibility -
How do anemones fare with a Queen angel? <Very hard to predict.> Dinner? <Perhaps not dinner exactly, but very likely the anemone will end up picked to death.> I'm planning a 180 for a queen, and have a couple of BTA clones & their clownfish that I'd like to put in the tank with the live rock. <Believe it or not, a 180 is on the small side for an adult Queen Angel - these fish top out at around 18" making a 24" wide tank a bit cramped.> MH lighting with actinic supplementation, good skimmer, lots of flow. <Should be a fine tank otherwise.> I wouldn't mind if the angel ate the xenia or tree corals, (those grow like weeds anyway), but NOT my BTA's! <Hard to predict. Many times Angel fish start off as model reef tank citizens and after a couple of years decide to take a bite, and worse yet, they decide that they like it. May want to consider a separate system for the anemones.>
Thanks,
Neil
<Cheers, J -- >

- Angelfish & Anemones, Follow-up -
Thanks for replying. <My pleasure.> This is pretty much as I suspected.  I know the Queens aren't "reef safe", and they are prone to pick on some corals and even clam mantles, but could find nothing on their appetite for anemones.
Honey, I'm gonna need to set up another tank! <There you go!
Cheers, J -- >

Queen Angel Attacking White Spotted bamboo shark 8/11/05
Hello WWM Crew,
<Mark...>
I need some advice. Help! I am having a problem now with my Queen  Angel attacking my White Spotted bamboo shark.
<Happens...>
They have been together for a  long time now and was getting along until two days ago my Queen Angel who  is about 7"
suddenly thinks that the shark eyeball is edible. The queen angel  will constantly pick on the sharks eyeball every time he has a chance to get  to it. I
watched it for few minutes, thinking that the queen might stop.
<No... highly unlikely... these fishes must be separated... quickly>
I looked at the sharks eye ball and I was alarmed due to its eyeball  is now all red. I took the necessary action, I fished out the queen angel (which  
took me half a day to do) and put him to my quarantine tank. He is doing fine in the quarantine tank and eating well. The queen angel has been in the
quarantine  tank for 3 days now.
My question, how long should I leave my queen angel to my quarantine  tank before I introduce him back again to my main tank with the white spotted  bamboo
shark?
<Forever... can't be kept together>
I am thinking that If I separate the queen for few days and until  the shark heals, then introduce them together again, the aggression will stop  
and they will get along again. Am I right? What is the best thing to do at this point? I like both of them. I have them both for a long time now. Please
help!  Once again, thanks for your time.
Mark A.
<Please read... don't write... on WWM... learn to/use the indices, search tool... re Shark Compatibility, Holacanthus ciliaris... Bob Fenner>