Re: water chemistry question... Alk. anomaly & Red Sea synthetic/borate, & salt mix issues f's    3/8/11
Thank you for the response Bob!
<Welcome Adam!>
I've been waiting a while before writing you back because I wanted to be sure I had isolated the exact problem. While things improved a little when I increased the pH of my tank, that situation did not hold and my Acroporas started to deteriorate again soon after. However, after a couple weeks of testing every day, I believe I've discovered, and corrected the real culprit:
<Ah, good>
As I mentioned, I had just recently switched to a new Red Sea salt, which is the first time I've ever used a salt that is evaporated directly from the ocean, I've always used synthetic salts. Shortly there after, I started using baking soda. For the past year and a half, my daily/weekly maintenance routine on my tank has involved testing alkalinity, calcium and magnesium levels, and I do more thorough tests for things like borate alkalinity specifically, strontium, iodide, silicates, etc. monthly.
<Ok>
I upped my testing to daily for most of those parameters since I wrote you last, but with a special focus on the alkalinity component because the tissue damage I was seeing looked so much like the Alk crash my tank went through before I set up the auto-doser. In that time, I've done two largish water changes. It turns out the naturally evaporated sea salt has a much higher borate concentration than the synthetic salts
<Yes... there are some brands that do this... for a couple of reasons>
I've used in the past, which have almost no borate. The volume of carbonate solution my auto-doser is set to dispense was also determined based on the reef specific carbonate source I was using before I switched to baking soda.
While my dKH has stayed relatively constant, each time I did a water change, my total alkalinity would spike, and then over the course of a couple of days return to 'normal' levels. What was actually happening was that over time, the salt was adding far more borate to my water than my tank was consuming, and the baking soda solution wasn't concentrated enough to keep up with the carbonate demand at the set dispensing volume.
<This is an apt description... what was likely occurring>
Each water change my relative concentration of borate was increasing, so the total alkalinity test continued to return 'normal' values. In the time between one water change, my carbonate alkalinity fell to as low as 1.79 meq/L,
<Yikes>
only to be propped back up to 'safe' levels by another water change (when magically, things would start to look better), then start to fall again.
This repeated stress over the course of a month+ lead to the problems I saw.
I'm now testing for both borate alkalinity and carbonate alkalinity separately every other day, and have adjusted my auto-doser accordingly. My total alkalinity is now on the high side at 4.64 meq/L (or about 13 dKH), but my carbonate concentration 3.4 meq/L (about 9.5 dKH). It will take a while for the tissue that burnt to fully recover, but already the reversal is night and day - the tips have their colour and 'fleshiness' back, the surviving polyps are out in full force, and the corals are already starting to plate over the areas that died. It appears the carbon and biopellet reactors had nothing to do with it!
<Agreed>
Again, thank you for your time. I don't know where I would be without WWM - well, I do know, I would have a tank full of dead coral.
Adam
<Thank you for your valuable insights offered here. You have helped many others, myself included. Cheers, BobF>

premixed saltwater storage  10/5/09
Good afternoon,
<Good evening, Keith! JustinN here!>
I have a question regarding the storage of premixed saltwater. I currently use Red Sea Coral Pro salt and RO water. I use a Maxijet and a heater in a 6 gallon bucket. I mix the salt and let it mix with a powerhead and a heater and test ph, ca and Alk after 24 hours and the results are pH of 8.3, Ca of 440 and dKH of 8. I then cover the bucket with a lid and leave the heater and Maxijet on.
<Sounds good.>
When I remove the lid several days later I have noticed that my dKH goes up and my
Ca drops to about 360-380. I imagine this is kind of the same result as the night-day ph swing and that the Alk and Ca are working to stabilize pH?
<Mmm, more likely the stabilization of all things chemical in your water over time..>
Anyway, when it comes to water changes with this premixed water, what is the procedure? How long should I leave the water with the lid off before attempting a change?
<If you're circulating the air for 24+ hours with an air pump, you should be ready to go. Just perform a water change as normal.>
Should I add an airstone a couple of hours before the water change or does this sound like an unstable salt mix?
<More air never hurts, but I doubt its necessity. No personal experience with Red Sea's salt, but I doubt that the mix is a problem.>
I had just recently noticed coralline die off and lower Ca or more than usual ca consumption in my display tank that had been dead on for well over a year as well as lower pH overall (8.1) during the day.
<Coralline die-off and higher Ca usage would seem to be somewhat in conflict -- are there corals/clams that could be sapping the Ca from the water at a greater rate over time?>
This salt brand had been pretty much consistent for me since I started my tank, with no new livestock additions or equipment but to be quite honest I had never tested the bucket after the initial tests were satisfied after the mixing and aerating 24 hours later.
<Worthwhile to chart out results for a few sets of make-up water here, make sure there's not a trend of instability.>
Any insight or help would be greatly appreciated.
<On paper, I would say you appear to have everything right as needed. Have a look at my article on exactly this topic:
http://wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_4/V4I2/Water_Makeup/makeup_water.htm --
you will find that your overall strategy fits the concepts laid out there pretty well to a T. Let us know if you have any more questions! -JustinN>

Re: premixed saltwater storage... & disc. of mixes, IO and Red Sea 
Thanks Justin.
I read the water change article, and it looked familiar, so it might have been where I initially got some of the practices I use now. I always do let the water age for at least a day, so stuff can become known before it's in the tank and too late.
<Absolutely.>
I usually test too but so many buckets of the Red Sea had been dead on I kind of slacked on this last one until a WC had been done.
<Understandable -- when you get that rhythm, sometimes the lackadaisical attitude sets in... I know I'm guilty more than once!>
While I was waiting for your reply, I mixed up 2 other buckets of water, another of Red Sea Coral Pro and one of good ol' Instant Ocean just to make sure my test kits weren't out of whack. The Instant Ocean at SG of 1.026 was right on, Alk of 10, calcium of 380 and ph of 8.2-8.3. The second batch of Red Sea had an Alk of well over 14, but I stopped there because those drop tests run out pretty quick and I was yet unsure where the salt was going to be reading the next day. The Ca was at 440 and ph of 8.3 <I never trust my initial readings when mixing salt, and tend to only go on Salinity personally -- until the water has had some time to mix and stabilize.>
Like I said in my last email, I had used this brand of salt for over a year without issue, switching from Instant Ocean on the "advice" of other reefers when I started adding corals because of the low Ca in IO.
<Understood -- plenty of reefers have great success with this salt -- I doubt the salt itself is really an issue.>
A little background on my tank. I have a 20 gal long tank. It has 24 lbs of aragonite sand, about 20 lbs of liverock and has 2 150 gal powerheads on opposite sides. I also use an Aquaclear 70 that is 300 gph for flow and occasionally Chemipure since my skimmer started to leak and it had to be removed about 6 months ago.
<Sounds good -- do make sure to clean out any filter media in the Aquaclear regularly here.>
I do 2 5% WCs weekly or at least 1 10%. The tank is lit by 130 watts of PC, 1 1000k and 1 actinic. I have 2 false Perculas, a watchman and his pistol shrimp buddy, a cleaner shrimp, 4 blue leg hermits and 4 Astrea snails. For corals I have Xenia, mushrooms, zoos and 2 LPS corals: a torch coral and a candy cane.
<Sounds very nice.>
I have had these corals doing well and growing now since Feb of this year (that is when the final ones were
added) I have great coralline too, but everywhere I read that to sustain coralline you needed a higher Ca, like in the 400-450 range in a captive system...which with the addition of the LPs is why I opted to try out a "reef" salt in the first place....but as you can see, other than the coralline I don't really have a lot of Ca/Alk
hungry animals...at least I don't think I do, I might be wrong.
<Disagreed -- Torch corals and Candy Cane's are both hard stonies, and use a good amount of Ca/Alk... would very likely account for any lacks here.>
Since I added the "bad batch" of salt on my last WC I have seen my Alk drop, my Ca drop and my Ph fluctuate more than normal as well as the coralline looking flaky in places and some on the walls with white
rings starting to form around them.
<This does seem odd -- I'd continue forward with testing a few buckets of mix, see if there's a trend towards imbalance with the Red Sea salt..>
I was always happy with the consistency of the IO salt, but didn't want to add say liquid calcium often over fear of the eventual chloride problem.
<Must say, I'm not aware of a chloride problem here -- as long as your dosing accurately and measuring, there shouldn't be an issue. Also, do look into solutions such as B-Ionic, they take a lot of the complication out of Ca/Alk dosing.>
Is there a way to use IO without a drip system, reactor whatever with a safer calcium additive, for a tank my size or is the 380 I get at 1.026 actually pretty good for my tank?
<Is about average, for non-supplemented water.>
I do use Seachem reef builder from time to time as well for Alk with the Red Sea Pro when it would mix the way it usually did: ph 8.3 Alk 7 and Ca 440. This bucket of Red Sea also leaves a noticeable amount of
deposit and "shiny" particles at the bottom of my bucket...so I fear I might have a quality issue with this batch.
<Hmm.. I'm beginning to fear this too, the more I read.. it does happen from time to time.>
Before I realized this was occurring I had done a 10% WC Friday which is when I noticed the parameters of my tank were starting to swing. From now on I will test EACH batch of mix, and at the very least every new bucket and a couple of batches.
<I would agree with this approach.>
I see a lot of different trends and guerilla techniques so to speak in these nanos but what I really want is a consistent stable and enjoyable tank, which I have been able to do pretty well before this last batch of salt got me worried.
<Smaller volumes of water are always problematic to keep at a stable chemistry -- which is why those in the know typically don't recommend them as a starter.>
Effort and maintenance is no problem, I just don't want to start out with numbers that aren't going to do my tank any good, especially in a small system such as mine. I appreciate your help, and I am so sorry if this is long winded, but my only other support is a fellow nano friend of mine who has sunk so much money and equipment into is tank he could have a 180 gallon reef with a sump! He's an engineer of course :-)
<Ah, always good people to know! Do look into/reach out to various BB's and forums around the net -- such as the one provided here at WWM! These forums are full of people willing to help and discuss their similar issues, successes, and failures.>
BTW, what would you do to iron this out? scrap the red sea batch and try to return the unused? mix the IO with the red sea (fear of a less than desirable effect with possible precipitation), or go back to IO and add something for the possible Ca issue if it is needed and if so what would you recommend?. If the consumption isn't too bad, will the coralline adjust to a balanced system with lower Ca?
<Personally, I would likely test 2-3 batches worth of the red sea at once (allowing them to circulate for 24-48 hours first). If I continued to get off/varied readings here, I would probably move forward with trying to get a credit on the unused portion. If you still have the Instant Ocean available, and its still testing accurately, I would use this for the time being in your tank.>
Again, sorry this probably simple and common problem is so long
Keith
<The proof is in the details, as they say -- this thorough description has allowed me to get a bit more of a view into the overall process that's going on, and I'm now more inclined to think it could be a problematic batch of salt. Let us know if you have any further questions! -JustinN>

Re: Premixed Saltwater Storage, Problematic Salt Mix - 10/06/2009
Hi Justin,
<Hey Keith!>
Well I do think I have a bad batch of Red Sea this time, like it is void of Mag or something. Today after adding my venturi to the powerhead in bucket 1 for over an hour testing resulted in a dKH of 18 ca of 280. Bucket 2 which was mixed later is a dKH of 16 Ca of 320 and finally the 3rd bucket with instant ocean dKH of 10 calcium of 380 still all at SG of 1.026.
<Mmm, does sound that way.>
Both batches of Red Sea are particulate
and hazy (even the mix from 48 hours ago!)
<Definitely not right>
My LFS has a good return policy and Reef Crystals from Instant Ocean is on sale by chance this week and will only run about $2 more than regular IO for the bag of mix that does 55 gals, so I'm thinking that might be my better bet as it seems I bought the last bucket in stock of Red Sea from them.
<Sounds like a plan to me. Reef Crystals is a quality product with a proven record.>
I know all salt mixes can have a bad batch, which is why it is important to test but the Instant Ocean has been pretty consistent....
<Agreed. Some have a better track record than others, but everyone has incidents -- it happens.>
its what I have used in my brackish tanks for years so I am hoping Reef Crystals will be just as consistent with a little better mag and Ca. Should I do small 5% water changes or should there be no harm in ionic balance to do a 10% weekly until my levels are more consistent?
<No harm that I would see -- the balance shouldn't be enough off either way to cause a precipitous event.>
Should I use a 2 part Alk/ca additive in the mean time like C-Balance or Kent A&B?
<Certainly, these are easy to apply and work well -- I like B-Ionic myself, but the above are fine too.>
Thank you for the help and the quick response.
Keith
<Glad to be of service! -JustinN>

Marine Salt Question, "Red Sea Coral Pro Salt"  3/23/07 Hi WW Crew: <Bonnie> I was wondering if anyone had experience or an opinion on the new product "Red Sea Coral Pro Salt"? <Mmm, nope> The company states it is specifically formulated for use with reverse osmosis water. <Mmm...> They also give some stats such as: With a salinity of 1.025 the Calcium level is 480ppm at 75 degrees.  I use R/O water and was wondering if it might be good for me to use. <Worth trying... though am a stead user of the two long-standing best brands in the trade...>   I have been using Instant Ocean Reef Crystals.  Was rather surprised that the calcium level would be that high (480ppm).  What do you think? <Is artificially boosted (relative to NSW...) but not a big deal (all good synthetics are). Do take a read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/seawater.htm and the linked files above> Thanks for your opinion.  Bonnie <Thanks for asking. Bob Fenner>

Salt Mix Opinion  - 5/18/2006 Hey guy and gals! <Hello Christine> I was wondering what you guys thought about 'Red Sea Pro Coral Salt'.  It is supposed to be for use with RO water.  Here is the description: "With the increasing popularity of Reverse Osmosis water filtration systems Red Sea addressed the special needs of this advanced hobbyist with the development of Coral Pro Salt. Unlike traditional water filtration systems Reverse Osmosis filtration strips the water of several essential elements, which were never factored into the salt formulas available today. Since the reverse osmosis process strip virtually 100% of the calcium from the 'tap water' the hobbyist is left with a seawater mixture that is significantly low in calcium from the start. In addition to calcium there are a few other natural minerals and chemicals left at inadequate levels such as magnesium. Coral Pro salt when mixed with Reverse Osmosis water faithfully replicates natural seawater and has the desired calcium and magnesium content to support delicate reef life. Chemically balanced formula to support the most delicate corals and other marine life. Free of nitrates and phosphates." Does this eliminate the need for RO right/other buffers? <Not familiar with this new product.  Why don't you talk to the horse at Red Sea.  Email "Pinky" here:  redseainfo@redseafish.com> Thanks! <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)> Christine

Re: Salt Mix Opinion - anyone but salty dog  - 05/19/2006 Thanks for the email address, but I was really hoping to get an objective opinion on the salt mix.  My previous email is repeated below: Hey guy and gals! I was wondering what you guys thought about 'Red Sea Pro Coral Salt'.  It is supposed to be for use with RO water.  Here is the description: "With the increasing popularity of Reverse Osmosis water filtration systems Red Sea addressed the special needs of this advanced hobbyist with the development of Coral Pro Salt. Unlike traditional water filtration systems Reverse Osmosis filtration strips the water of several essential elements, which were never factored into the salt formulas available today. Since the reverse osmosis process strip virtually 100% of the calcium from the 'tap water' the hobbyist is left with a seawater mixture that is significantly low in calcium from the start. In addition to calcium there are a few other natural minerals and chemicals left at inadequate levels such as magnesium. Coral Pro salt when mixed with Reverse Osmosis water faithfully replicates natural seawater and has the desired calcium and magnesium content to support delicate reef life. Chemically balanced formula to support the most delicate corals and other marine life. Free of nitrates and phosphates." Have any of you tried this product? Does this eliminate the need for RO right/other buffers? Thanks! Christine <Mmm, did see the original response (and query). For my part I have not used this product (is relatively new), but am familiar with the company's main brand and this has proven inconsistent and inferior. I would post your query on some of the various specialty BB's (ReefFrontiers, ReefCentral...) for a broader, user-based response here. Bob Fenner>

Salt Mix Opinion Query  - 05/19/2006 Another irritating querier.  I gave her my answer stating I'm not familiar with the product and even gave her an addy to Red Sea.  How can I give an "objective opinion" when I never used the product or am familiar with it.  She doesn't want me to respond and I won't, already gave her all she should need.  ARRGGHHH.   James <Thought about this as well... I'd've given about the same response... I have no experience with this salt... but their main brand is inconsistent, inferior... I would next, perhaps will refer this person to the specialty BB's for a wider net of experience, input. BobF>

Salt Brand Change 8/5/03 Sorry to trouble you once again, but I have a quick question as I am about to run out of salt. I have been using Red Sea since starting my tank 9 months ago because I got several buckets for $30 each at Petco. I have been somewhat dissatisfied with it's performance, especially since one ff the buckets kept mixing up with an ammonia level of 0.5 using ammonia-free RO water. <I will tell you that for some time I have heard complaints monthly or better with this salt... not so much quality issues... but consistency> Anyway, I am considering a switch. I gather that most of the crew prefer Tropic Main or IO over Red Sea. Is this correct? <for me at least... Bob is agreed too I'm fairly certain><<Yes. RMF>> Might I ask why? <long-standing QC... Tropic Marin is arguably a better salt... IO is perhaps a better value. Both are extremely reliable and consistent> I've tried to read up on some of the issues, including the famous article by Ron Shimek in Reefkeeping Online. <ughhh... for neither love or money, I - nor many other industry professionals I know - can explain why he made this statement or how the heck he came to those conclusions. The backlash on it is already coming back. Sorry to see it for all> He seems to strongly favor Crystal Sea Marinemix.   <do read the message boards and our archives re: issues with this salt in particular from less than pleased folks that made the switch. Seems to be some concern for gastropods and echinoderms in particular as I recall (stunned snails and starfish). I personally would not take it for free.> If I do change, should I just start using the new brand for water changes (say 5% per week)?  Thanks, Steve Allen. <do opt for 10-20% weekly water changes minimum please... and you will not go wrong with TM, IO or Omega salts IMO. Best regards, Anthony>

Salt Mix Quality Questions Dear Sir, <No "sir"- just Scott F. here today!> I have used Tropic Marin, HW Marinemix, Instant Ocean and Sera Meersaltz for my marine fish hobby over 5 years. <All good salts; I'm a Tropic Marin fan, myself> Recently, I tried Red Sea salt because it was cheaper which unfortunately resulted in the death of many of my fishes in my aquarium!  <Sorry to hear that...Are you sure that it was the salt mix?> I went back to the shop and found out that the shop owner himself uses Sera Meersaltz for his magnificent showcase tanks. What about the Red Sea then? He said he is aware of blending quality problems last year but thought the problem had been rectified. <Perhaps if this was the problem, maybe you purchased a leftover bag from one of the troubled batches?> He is no longer stocking Red Sea salt mix after my complaint and says Instant Ocean would be the replacement for the budget conscious (Sera Meersaltz for the serious high-end fishkeeper) as he had some similar complaints from others as well.  My question is why has there been a lack of emphasis on the quality of many brands of seawater mix available especially where blending of the formula matters so much? <Well, I suppose that there has been a lot more placed into marketing and packaging in recent years than into research and development by many companies. Some formulas have been established so long that little, if any expense has been put into refining them.  The SF15 report, while appearing biased towards Aquacraft products and somewhat understandable (their products did better in the tests after all is said and done) is about the only thing I have seen so far. <Agreed...there are not too many independent tests out there. However, a number of advanced hobbyists and authors have done some limited research into salt mix over the past couple of years, and have published this information on the 'net. Just requires a bit of research on your part. Some of the findings might be interesting, others seem to be a bit unusual, but it's always worth looking at. I think the real problem is that it is rather expensive to perform a completely unbiased, accurate, and thorough analysis of al of the salt mixes on the market today. I suppose the best bet for the hobbyist is to see what your fellow successful hobbyists have found to be effective, and try the salt in your own system. If the salt works for you- stick with the brand. Consistency in all things, including salt mix- is very vital for marine systems, IMO. Hang in there! Regards, Scott F>

Seawater Mix Product Issues 4/9/04  Dear Sir,  <Wow! No need for such formality. We are a very laid back bunch!<g>.>  I have used Tropic Marin, HW Marinemix, Instant Ocean and Sera Meersaltz for my marine fish hobby over 5 years. Recently, I tried Red Sea salt because it was cheaper which unfortunately resulted in the death of many of my fishes in my aquarium!  <Very bad news indeed!>  I went back to the shop and found out that the shop owner himself uses Sera Meersaltz for his magnificent showcase tanks. What about the Red Sea then? He said he is aware of blending quality problems last year but thought the problem had been rectified. He is no longer stocking Red Sea salt mix after my complaint and says Instant Ocean would be the replacement for as he had some similar complaints from others as well.  <I have not heard of this problem. Perhaps it is limited to certain areas. Tropic Marin and Sera are very highly regarded salts (which unfortunately are not widely available in the US) and Instant Ocean is so widely used that serious problems with it would be well known.>  My question is why has there been a lack of emphasis on the quality of many brands of seawater mix available especially where blending of the formula matters so much? The SF15 report while appearing biased towards Aquacraft products and somewhat  understandable (their products did better in the tests after all is said and done) is about the only thing I have seen so far.  <The results of the S-15 report is widely considered to be very questionable. Your observation that one brand of salts vastly outperformed others is very keen. You might have also noted that the criteria used to judge the salts seemed a bit odd and obviously favored the same brands of salt produced by the folks who performed the testing.  Dr. Ron Shimek performed some testing of salt mixes using sea urchin larvae. Although his results were quite dramatic, it is my strong opinion that not many useful conclusions can be drawn from his results and that much more testing is required.  I think the biggest reason for lack of testing of salts is primarily cost. No one has any way of recovering their testing cost, let alone profiting from performing unbiased testing. Another important reason is that it is only in the last couple of years that husbandry has advanced so far that the life expectancy of our animals may be limited by the quality of salt mix rather than poor husbandry.  Lastly, very pure chemicals are very expensive. To give a very crude example, a 95% pure chemical may cost $1.00 per kilo, the same chemical 99% pure may be $3.00 per kilo, the same chemical 99.99% pure may cost $15.00 per kilo. So, the cost goes up very rapidly to achieve the very highest level of purity. I hope this information is useful to you. Adam>

Questions (salt mix brands, spg, sponge diet) Hi Bob !! If you're given a choice of salt mix, which one would you go for: Instant ocean or Red Sea ? <Instant Ocean by a few percent... with Tropic Marin a few points ahead of them...> Secondly, for a fish only tank with live rocks, can I maintain the SG level of 1.017 permanently?  <Actually, not a good idea... more "stressful" than it's worth/gain IMO/E... would re-raise to NSW (near seawater), 1.025 over time> Lastly, my 6 inch queen angel which refuse to eat for 2 weeks, now begins to feed on sponge which I bought specially for her.  <Yes, a major component of Holacanthus of many species in the wild> Is it ok for her to feed only on sponge or will she suffer from malnutrition from consuming sponge only? Please advice. Thanks. <Best to add other foodstuffs to this animals diet. Bob Fenner>