Fixing Up My Grandparents Tank... FW Angel sys., hlth.  12/25/07
Hello WWM,
<Joe>
Recently, on Christmas day, I visited my Grandparents and it was sad to find out that the Angelfish I had bought them 6 years ago passed away. I set the tank up for them when I was in 7th grade, about the time when I was getting into the hobby. I didn't know a lot, and I set up a 6 gallon eclipse tank with some tetras, the angelfish, and an anubis (sp?) <Anubias> plant. The tetras never made it, but the plant and angelfish did.
<Needs more room...>
The anubis plant is still around, and has grown well and green. The angel grew very large in the small tank, reaching about 4 inches in length, not having a lot of room to swim. It was until a year or two ago I realized the tank was too small, and was surprised how he was still alive and well.
<Might have lived much longer, better in a bigger volume>
Getting them a larger tank would be hard, since they don't know a lot on how to keep the tank.
<What other possibilities are there Joe? Patterns... consequences>
I considered taking him and placing him in my larger freshwater tank, but it would have caused problems in my tank, and yet the angel provided my grandparents with company. They loved the fish,
<... not by my def.. If/when something is "loved" the folks involved do their best to provide what is "positive to the nature" of the other/s...>
 and were pretty sad to see him go. I couldn't tell what was wrong with him, couldn't see any markings, but I did notice his eye was a little red in one spot for a while, and when he died that his mouth was a little chopped up looking. My cousin said it was fungus, but I am not sure. It looked like he had "chin hairs' or something. Now we need to decide what to do with the tank.
Its been established for 6 years, and I don't know if it is a good idea to dump it, do some serious cleaning, take out the rocks, etc. I figured I would clean half the tank water out and wait a few weeks in case there were diseases.
<Environmental only likely>
Here are the parameters. Temp 79, Ph. 6.8, Nitrate 35. I need your advice on what to do. Should I get a new tank, do some cleaning, dump it. Also, a suggestion on what fish would do well in the tank and some plants that can also cope with the low lighting the tank has.
Thank you
Joe
<All posted on our site, "waiting" for your perusal... Including FW Angelfish Systems if you'll look. Bob Fenner>

Freshwater angel fish... sys., hlth.    9/25/07
hello crew,
<Hello.>
greetings and thank you in advance, I will describe the problems I have been having with freshwater angels. I have only been trying plain Jane pet store angels, not wild types etc. I have had success with convict cichlids, breeding and rearing the young no problem, and my nano reef tank is doing just fine, right now still just "easy" animals, zoanthids and parazos and a three stripe damsel, and "utility" species, so I have a decent amount of experience keeping fish, my Malawian tank is doing fine, not breeding yet but giving it time, so enough back-story.
<OK.>
I have recently purchased a few angel fish, one whose body was roughly the size of a half dollar, and 5 the size of a nickle, I watched the tank as best I could. The large fish is still alive and swimmin, but the small guys have all perished.
<Very small angels do not travel well. Also, angels are bullies, and big ones pick on small ones. Contrary to popular myth, they aren't really schooling fish. Juveniles congregate in groups, it is true, but adults form territorial pairs. So, the classic way to start with angels is buy a group of 6 identically sized angels, rear them together, and then remove the excess fish once a stable pair has formed.>
There are not detectable levels of ammonia or nitrite, the nitrates are a bit higher than i realized, the tank had previously been the home of my breeding pair of convicts, as well as some tiger barbs and a guppy, the guppy being th only one still in there.
<Angels, like all cichlids, are intolerant of nitrate. The goal is less than 50 mg/l, and ideally less than 20 mg.l.>
I had tried angles before, prior to the convicts, and failed then, i then tried the convicts and right away, in the same tank they did just fine.
<Convicts and angels are very different fish in terms of hardiness. This is especially true with "fancy" angels, which are the ones most commonly sold. These have been selected for looks, not hardiness or behaviour, with the net result that many fancy angels are very unpredictable in terms of maximum size, disease resistance, hardiness, and aggression.>
ok on to the questions,
I apologize for the long story before the question.
Just how sensitive to hardness, nitrates, and PH are domesticated angels?
<Varies, but as a baseline, tank-bred angels are indifferent to pH and hardness within a range of around 5-20 degrees dH, pH 6-8. Nitrates as mentioned can be more of an issue.>
Am I likely to have better luck starting with slightly larger angels?
<Quite possibly. But the main thing is to ensure your water chemistry is similar to that of the breeder. As with any fish, changes in water chemistry are more of a deal than what precisely the water chemistry values are. Also, try and avoid the very fancy varieties, things like veil-tails and koi angles. Ideally, pick wild-type angels, as these have been messed about with the least. They will have three or four vertical bands on the flanks and red eyes. Marble angels seem to be reasonably robust, too. Gold angels are less so, and black angels significantly less so.>
oh sorry, the tank is a 55.
<Should be fine for 6 angels while they're young, but a breeding pair could easily dominate it.>
I did massive water changes, using a API tap water filter prior to angel fish introduction, like 13 gallons changed out, current filtration is the H.O.B. filter I had in with the convicts, as well as new Zeolite, (fear of overwhelming the system) and a recently added Fluval 303 which I had not been using, but has carbon in it as well.
<OK. Here's some comments on your filtration system. For angelfish (and cichlids in general) you need a filtration system that provides at least 6 times the volume of the tank in turnover per hour. The Fluval 303 has a turnover of about 220 gallons per hour, to which you should add the turnover of your second filter. You're looking for a total of at least 6 x 55, i.e., 330 gallons per hour. But this also depends on how well the filter is maintained, and also on what media you use. Zeolite and carbon are both redundant in a well maintained aquarium. Zeolite isn't very useful. It needs frequent replacing (weekly, really) and isn't as effective or economical as a biological filter. Zeolite is really only for hospital tanks and very acidic tanks where filter bacteria will not grow. Carbon is even less useful. It serves no useful purpose at all in a properly maintained freshwater aquarium. Doing 50% weekly water changes will dilute dissolved organics in the water much more effectively than adsorption by the carbon. Moreover, carbon removes medication from the water, making it impossible to treat your fish. So remove both the carbon and the zeolite. Instead, invest in biological filtration. Pack both filters with a bit of mechanical filter media (perhaps 1/3rd) and the rest biological filter media (the remaining (2/3rd).
the water I have is very hard, i don't have to add anything for the Malawis.
<Shouldn't be a problem. People routinely keep and breed angels here in England where the water is harder than Lake Malawi.>
I am at a loss, and i need to know what I am doing wrong.
please help, I desperately wan to have success with angels, and eventually Discus.
<Whoa... get the angels right, and then move to discus. If you can't keep angels, you have no chance at all with discus.>
I am at the point of all but giving up on any soft water species and sticking to the African rift lakes, central America and salt water creatures.
<That's certainly a viable approach to take. Fishkeeping is a whole lot easier when you choose fish that like your local water conditions. But in this instance, I'm not sure water chemistry is the critical factor.>
Also at some point, after moving to my own house rather than apt. I wish to try native fish, so albeit yes I have "Great Expectations" I am trying to progress in a logical sort of manner.
again Thank you for your help,
Forrest
P.S. have tried to eliminate any typos, spelling errors or grammatical
errors.
<Well, I hope this helps! Neale>

Re: freshwater angel fish – 09/25/07
thanks again. will add up on the biological filtration more, and get the nitrates down ASAP, and yeah the Discus are quite a ways off, figure it's always good to have a goal though, I am not thinking of discus in less than 3 years.
Thanks again,
Forrest
<Very good. I'm not sure it takes 3 years to get up to speed for keeping discus, but definitely keeping and breeding angels for a year or so will teach you all the basics. Modern discus are really not all that difficult to keep, especially compared to wild discus. But they ARE less forgiving of mistakes than angels. Once you're happy you can handle angels and get them to breed successfully, there's no reason to feel nervous about discus. As ever read, learn, and be patient while your skills improve. Cheers, Neale>

Re: FW Angelfish, Stocking plan, planted tank start up. – 09/25/07
Hey Andrea,
<Hi Terri!>
Its me again! Thank you very much for your wise ways, I am now completely obsessed with organizing this new tank...its sort of funny and very neurotic;)
<It gets that way ;-). Beware of MTS (Multiple Tank Syndrome.)>
Anyway, due to various reasons, things have really changed and we've decided that we should go with a smaller 20 gallon tank.
<Bummer. I usually try to get the biggest I can. I never hear anyone say "I wish I went smaller.">
Now we have to learn about new compatibility setups. I have some questions; please advise..
<I'll do my best.>
Planned setup is now
20 gallon planted tank:
2 Apistogramma <Ok.>
5 neon dwarf rainbows <Ok.>
3 zebra loaches <Ok. Sounds good!>
1) Could I fit another small school of tetras in here? If so, which compatible species do you recommend?
<Hmm...I'd say really that this is pretty stocked the way it is. I suggest you start with what you have picked out, the least aggressive (rainbows, then loaches) to most aggressive (apistos) and do more learning and research. This is a hobby of patience. Get these, and enjoy them over time (start slowly, stock this over about 3-4 months) and do some extra learning. Subscribe to one of the many aquarium forums out there, and start making some friends. It will help TONS, and you will learn a lot of tricks of the trade, that will help you decide if or whether to stock anything else, and what to add.>
2) I read that dwarf or chain loaches are very inbred and tends towards aggression. Is this true? I think they would be a better match for my setup since they are smaller, but not sure if I can get them here where I live.
<I think that Botia Striata (zebra loaches) are a fantastic choice. I have not heard the same inbreeding information as you, but that does not mean it does not exist. I suggest doing a search for chain loach on the wetwebmedia site and online for more information.>
3) Would the zebras loaches be ok with the apistos?
<Yes, I believe so, but again, search on wetwebmedia is your friend here ;-).>
4) Would yo yo loaches really be unsuitable for a 20 gallon setup?
<My feelings are yes. They can get pretty large. Also, they really like to dig, so they might really disrupt your plans for a planted tank.>
5) Is there a personality difference in general between Apisto. bitaeniata and Apisto. agassazi? I'm having trouble finding information on the former.
<As far as I am aware, there is not much of a difference personality-wise, no. You might try searching on Google.com proper for Apistogramma dedicated sites, which might have more species specific information. Breeders, and breeding registries for specific cichlids generally keep up on a lot of species specifics. You might also try the local library, for books on South American Cichlidae.>
6) Would the loaches be ok in a heavily planted aquarium? I know they have a tendency to move stuff around, but was wondering if you ever heard of it being a major issue with this species.
<Some are ok, others can be a real pain. Kuhli loaches like to bury themselves in the substrate. Clown loaches get very large and can knock over rocks and driftwood. However, I have kept skunk botia and zebra loaches and even clowns in planted aquaria. Much of it depends on a few factors: Your determination and tolerance of their tendency to move things/dig and whether or not you want to keep substrate stirring snails. Snails are a natural part of loach diets. Many planted tank keepers are huge advocates of Malaysian Trumpet Snails and other decorative snails and shrimp. The two do not mix. Loaches will eat them. So, it is one of those compromise things, where you will have to research and decide for yourself.>
7) I live in Yellowknife, Northwest Territories Canada and the pet store here really doesn't have a good selection of fishes. I sort of have to wait for whatever to come in and then get it then. Are you aware of any good online stores that ship to Canada? Do you think online purchasing and shipping of fish is safe?
<I think it is safe, as I have done it many times. I have both sold and purchased fish online. The key is to do so from reputable sellers and buyers. Try checking out some of the sponsor sites on wetwebmedia.com. They are ALL reputable online fish retailers, and I am sure many service Canada. Also, there is a site specifically for fish that is similar to eBay called Aquabid.Com that you could look into; many Canadian sellers on there.>
8) Do you think Apistos are a better choice compared to (German Blue) rams?
<I think both fish are fantastic fish. It is personal preference.>
Thanks so much for your time, it is so greatly appreciated as I am starting to feel slightly overwhelmed by all the options. You guys are a life saver!
<You are most welcome. Anytime. Get yourself an account on an aquarium message board, they are a huge help. I really love the one here on wetwebmedia.com and aquariumadvice.com.>
Cheers,
Terri