Re: Angelfish (moving tank; not eating)– 05/09/09
Hello Neale (or whoever) I have another housekeeping question. I didn't intend any rudeness in not updating re the angel. Really, I don't know how much correspondence re follow-up, my background knowledge or lack thereof on fishkeeping, etc. you want to wade through in a day.
<We're always pleased to get a "thank you" or some such after sending a reply, and if you want to drop us a line to say your fish pulled through whatever crisis you were enduring, that's always nice to hear.>
I'm sure you receive quite a lot. I did test the water in the other tank as you suggested at the time (brand new API liquid bought to stabilize the new tank). It was fine Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0 Nitrates 10, ph 8.2 temp 78F He did
start eating - took 8 days. I was dismayed, however, because he still would not wag his tail whenever he saw me as he had formerly.
<Angels don't wag their tails when happy, so I'd not read much into this.
With cichlids, "happiness" is best detected by how strong their colours are, and how readily they leave their hiding places. Stressed cichlids are either abnormally pale or unusually dark, depending on the species. Nervous cichlids won't stray far from their lairs.>
Nevertheless, he is now in the 50 gal and, after a couple of days of sulking and being wary about all the water movement from the bubble wand at the back, I think he now likes his new digs. He sits front and centre watching the room as he had in the past. The only glitch is that, where it is positioned, he cannot watch television with us in the evenings as he had before.
<I'm sure he doesn't care; do be careful not to anthropomorphise! This can be dangerous; a fish might seem "interested" because of the flashing lights of the TV, but it could just as easily be feeling threatened, and it's
interest in the TV is because it can't figure out the nature of this particular stimulus in its environment. The best "entertainment" for any fish is the addition of active but peaceful schooling fish. These give more sedentary fish like Angels something to observe and avoid as they swim about. Angels specifically use schooling fish as cues to their environment; if these "dither fish" are swimming about happily, the Angel will feel reassured; if the dither fish are hiding or nervous, then the Angel will fear that there is a predator nearby. Congo Tetras and Rainbowfish such as Melanotaenia boesemanni are particularly good choices because they don't nip fins but are big enough not to be eaten by a hungry Angel.>
I am seriously thinking of moving it forward a few inches in spite of the nuisance it would be to do so now because, whenever it is on, he goes to that side of the tank and pushes his nose into the glass as though he is trying to see it- he can hear but the picture isn't there.
<I honestly doubt this; fish actually don't like noise of any kind. They have far more sensitive ears than we do, and the vibrations pressing against the glass also form waves that their lateral line picks up. Please, be careful about putting human thoughts/motives onto an animal. You'd be doing it no help at all. Much better to think about where Angels evolved -- the Amazon and Orinoco rivers -- and created an environment that would reflect that. Vertical bogwood roots or even slates for example are reassuring to Angels, because Angels evolved that flat shape so they can slide into gaps where other fish couldn't go. They also spawn on upright surfaces. So to an Angelfish, something like a tall tree stump is a slice of heaven!>
Anyway, I had a slight trace of nitrites a few days after the move but I did a 40% water change with double Prime, Stability, and Cycle added. It has been stable since but will test every two or three days for a while yet. There are still more fish to be moved. Current inhabitants are: Angel 2 Farlowellas almost as old as the Angel (Yes, I feed them blanched greens, etc. every few days) 9 Glowlights - 2 vintage and I added 7 more (all I could find locally that day) 1 Pleco - approx. 8 inches, also vintage To come: 1 male and 3 female swordtails 3 green barbs (maybe 1 or 2 more?)
<Do not add Green Barbs, but which I assume you mean Barbus tetrazona, also called the Moss Barb. This is a confirmed fin-nipper, and will harass your Angel. It also needs to be kept in groups of 6+. Never mind about TV for Angelfish; keeping schooling fish in groups of 3 is downright mean.
Honestly. Much, much better to up the number of Glowlights to, say, 20, and you'd find they schooled so much better and would look really nice.
Glowlights are borderline-safe with Angels, and big Angels (the 15 cm/6" specimens) can eat them. Domesticated Angels rarely get so large, so you'll probably be okay.>
And, I think I want a weather loach I stay pretty much tropical, tank bred, non-mayhem producing, fairly adaptable fish for a variety of reasons.
<Weather loaches do okay in tropical tanks up to about 25 C/77 F; I'd not keep them long term any warmer. That would stress them and they certainly have shorter lives kept thus.>
My question concerns the Pleco. He does not seem comfortable. This tank is sand only.
<Sand is fine for Plecs, though they can make a mess swooshing it about with their tails!>
The former was half sand and half eco-complete - the red and brown multicoloured variety. He lived beneath a big piece of Mopani wood which formed a private cave along one side. The substrate gave him a secure resting place. I moved his cave with him and positioned it as before. He spent the first few nights strewing sand everywhere and completely redoing the topography. Each morning I would reposition uprooted plants and wait for the water to clear. Now he stays mostly behind another large piece of driftwood, hidden beneath a few larger plants and doesn't even enter his cave. How do you house large Plecos on sand?
<It's actually hard once they get above a certain size. I've used smooth silica sand in my tank alongside a Panaque catfish. She makes quite a mess!
I find using rocks to stabilise the sand banks helps, and I deliberately create a cave where she can lurk. Vallisneria or some other fast-growing plant eventually binds the sand together, minimising the mess. But even
doing all these things, it's probably not ideal to keep Plecs above 15 cm/6" in a tank with a sandy substrate; at least, not if you want the sand to stay nice and flat all around the tank. Plecs are burrowing fish: they forage by sifting sand, and they dig burrows when laying their eggs. They love sand and they will mess it all up!>
Should I get a piece of slate to give him a firmer bottom?
<While that sounds a good idea, it's actually not that great. Flat slates will trap water and detritus, so you'll have all this decaying gunk underneath. I'd recommend buying a nice hollow ornament or flowerpot (the fancy terracotta amphoras and what not look great half buried in sand).
Your Plec will use this readily, leaving the open sand largely alone. Slope the sand so it's deeper at the back, and hopefully dirt will slide down to the front. Use a turkey baster to pipette out dirt as/when you see it, to save having to drag out the bucket and siphon every 5 minutes.>
My husband thinks that he was just trying to dig the wood down to where light would not enter it but I think he might be experiencing insecurity because of the fluidity under him.
<Well, these catfish certainly will dig burrows, and by definition, these will be away from the light. So I think your husband is right on the money here.>
Opinion?
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Angelfish (moving tank; not eating)– 05/09/09
Thank you sincerely. I get the impression that you rather like manning the help line.
<Well...>
I had kept a couple of tanks years ago - back in the 70's and 80's but it was always a secondary, sporadic hobby and I never really understood what I was doing. I did read some but either there was a lot that wasn't known or I never found the right references. I now have one of those granddaughters who is allergic to all things furred and feathered. (She has a bearded dragon.)
<Nice beasties! One of the very few reptiles that actually seems to enjoy human company, even being petted.>
I had never in my entire life lived in a household with only human inhabitants so after stewing for a year or so, I decided to go back to aquarium keeping. It wasn't long before I found WWM. - Of course, the internet didn't exist back in the 70's - but anyway, this site in particular was enormously helpful. This time, I could do it with some understanding of the requirements - not that I didn't muck up badly a few times. The only saving grace is that this time I either knew immediately what I had done or had a source to which I could refer. Gratitude doesn't begin to cover it.
<Glad to help.>
The terra cotta sounds good. The rocks are red jasper so it will fit. Pleco has already dug some holes collapsing some of the rock formation so we have a disagreement with the aesthetics. But really, I just want him to feel at home. He too, was once in the 10 gal, about an inch long when he arrived.
Rest assured - angel glows as ever. He has lived in the same room as the TV since his arrival several years ago and has never seemed nervous. I don't suppose he follows movie plot lines, just watches the flashing lights. I just thought he was looking for them, expecting them to be there as before.
<Unlikely... there's no obvious reason any cichlid would find flashing lights attractive or even reassuring.>
Maybe the glowlights are his dithers for now and I do intend to get more - would have at the time if they had been available. But what do you do with schooling fish when some perish?
<Usually, the problem is the fishkeeper has made the wrong choices. Pick species that enjoy your local water chemistry. If you try to keep Neons in hard water, they'll never do well. Neons don't like high temperatures either, so you want to keep them around 23 C/73 F; that's too low for things like Angels. So it's all about picking the right species for your local conditions. Tetras are good for soft water, barbs for middling, slightly soft to slightly hard water, and rainbows are best for hard water.>
I used to have 4 glowlights in a 10 gal. (first tank I got, yes, I know - too small but that was then) I had two left so am now augmenting the numbers. Similarly, I had 5 green barbs - never did find one of them; sometimes I think I still have 4 and will find him or her when I take that tank down. But appreciate the heads up on nipping. Hadn't thought of that but they wouldn't have stayed there long anyway if they tried. There was one baby sword a while back that decided to follow those trailing fins and nip them - there were several in the tank but one was just a bit bigger and more aggressive than the others. He was isolated and rehoused the next day.
<Swordtails are semi-aggressive, and they also need fast-flowing, rather cool water; they'd be a bad choice for tanks with Angels, to be honest.>
I am going to say - maybe the Serpaes.(Don't gasp). I have three of them left from the five that were once in the 10 gal and, yes, I know how you feel about Serpaes.
<My first fishkeeping mistake! Terrible fish.>
But they were all 5 in the same tank as the angel for the last couple of years and never harassed him at all.
<They might not be Serpae Tetras! There are actually a whole bunch of very similar Hyphessobrycon, some worse than others. Or you might simply have brought your Serpaes up well!>
The only time I experienced what you speak of with these fish was when I tried to include some threadfin rainbows. That was one of the mistakes - never again.
<Ah, yes...>
So I have been wanting to tell you my favourite Serpae story from about a year and a half ago.. All five were in the 30 gal with angel, Pleco, farleys, etc. Also in there were two Rummynose (again, I had had more) and one of these was ill. I couldn't figure out what was wrong but he was definitely going downhill. The other one was fine (still is) and all other fish were fine, so I decided it was not likely a virulent infection or anything so I left him there. I was hoping that if I just kept the water clean, he would rally but it didn't happen. Anyway, I was watching day by
day. One day, I couldn't find him. So I had my face right up to the glass peering all around. The Serpaes were in their usual position in the tank. After a minute or two, one of them broke ranks, went over the far side and fished (pun not intended) under a piece of driftwood, hauled out the body of the Rummynose, carried it to the front of the tank, and dropped it right in front of my face. Then he turned around and went back to his usual place in his group. So I have to have some respect for these Serpaes anyway.
<Hmm... Serpae tetras are [a] cannibalistic and [b] known to have a feeding frenzy behaviour. I doubt this Serpae was "house cleaning" but it's entirely possible he saw the body, took a bite, dropped the fish, all coincidentally in a way that looked as if he was bringing out the body for you to remove. Call me a boring scientist if you like!>
And yes, I got tired of seeing the surviving Rummynose swimming alone so have added a few more.
<Cool. Thanks for writing, Neale.>

Re: Angelfish (moving tank; not eating)   5/11/09
Neale:
FYI - no need to reply
<Ah! But I will...>
a) I have thought it over and decided to follow your suggestions re stocking. I can house these others elsewhere. The tank should be cool.
b) Rest assured that there is sufficient verticality in the landscaping to satisfy his atavistic urges.
c) If you haven't already, try Hagen Waste Remover or Ultrafin Waste Disposal or their equivalents to end the need for constant turkey baster removal. They work - I never see clumps of fish waste. Just know that
initially, water quality will go off with the increased rate of decomposition so it's best to have the fish elsewhere until the tank has restabilized.
<Yes I have used these, but they have limits. For one thing, they won't do anything for the wood-chippings produced by Panaque and other large herbivorous catfish. Secondly, they don't do anything beyond clumping silt; silt remains in the mechanical filter media within the filter. All they actually do is [a] clump silt and/or [b] speed up the decay of some solid wastes by bacteria (but not wood, chitin exoskeletons, etc) so by all means use and enjoy, but do realise their limitations. For what it's worth, I've been testing Bio-Wish BioBombs for a magazine, and I'm pretty impressed by them. But no bolt-on good removes (or even diminishes) the need for regular water changes. Most of what effects your fish's health isn't the solid waste but the dissolved metabolites (nitrate, etc). Cheers, Neale>

Angel Behavior 6/12/08
Hi Guys,
I really enjoy your site; there is so much useful information here. My question is about 2 fairly new angels that I have in a 30 gallon tank along with a Pleco, 2 platys, and a few very small tetras. I had 2 mollies in there, but they were bullying everybody, so I have moved them out of the tank. My water levels are: no ammonia, no nitrite, very low nitrate, temp at 80 degrees, pH about neutral slightly lower. Everyone seems healthy and they all seem to be eating normally, however, my 2 little angels have started keeping their fins closed. There are no other signs or symptoms of anything. This has been going on for about 4 or 5 days now. Any ideas?
Thanks!
Sara
<Hi Sara. There's no obvious reason your Angels should be sick. My only immediate concern is with the "small tetras" -- several species of tetra are fin-nippers and will harass Angelfish. Serpae tetras (Hyphessobrycon eques, plus related species like Jewel and Flame tetras) and Black Widow tetras (Gymnocorymbus ternetzi, also known as Black tetras and Petticoat tetras) are the most notable of these. It's also worth mentioning that Platies need a pH above 7, and ideally around 7.5, to do well in the long term. In any event, Angelfish are prone to bacterial and other internal infections, particular when very small and mass produced. If you can, treat with something against Hexamita in the first instance because this is so common among farmed cichlids generally.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/metranidazole.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwangelfishes.htm
Once you've done that, take all the usual precautions against possible sickness (lots of water changes, no live foods, etc.) and keep an eye out for other symptoms, if any. Very small (coin sized and smaller) Angels travel poorly and need great care to do well.
Cheers, Neale.>

Just A Thanks (Oh, and a question) - 10/06/2007
Hello y'all!
I just wanted to drop a quick "thank you" note to you for (generally) having a wonderful site and (specifically) for helping me out with an issue I was having.  I have as my centerpiece tank a 60 gallon hex (FW). I really wanted to have angelfish, so after cycling the filter on my established 55, I purchased 6 angels and 4 Cory cats. The Corys (Corys?) behaved properly, but the 6 young angels wouldn't come out from their hiding spot behind the driftwood.  They wouldn't even come up to eat. This is my first time with cichlids, but I knew that when they aren't going for food, something's wrong. I was getting more and more concerned... so I went to work with the searcher. Dither fish do work, it seems. Three hatchet fish, and now my little angel school is all over the tank, and swimming hungrily to the top, constantly telling me they're starving, and basically brightening my room (and life) for the past week.
Thanks again,
John
<John, thanks for taking the time to write. It's appreciated. The use of dither fish is very useful with dwarf cichlids as you've discovered, and yes, they do help. Hatchetfish are lovely animals, though they seem to have a constant appetite, and perhaps need a little more food than you'd imagine to stay healthy. I find a mix of Spirulina flake and small carnivore pellets does the trick admirably, but once in a while I hand-feed mine with small earthworms and the like. Hatchets are skittish at first, but settle down quickly. But always keep the tank covered, as they love to jump! Cheers, Neale>