Angelfish Mating/Cory Cats Schooling 8/20/09
Hello Crew, Hope all is going well. I have a question, please. I have a 75 gallon fw tank with 6 medium sized angelfish. I have read that if 2 pair off for mating they can get aggressive towards others in the aquarium.
Does this mean that they have to be removed or is a 75 gallon tank large enough so that the others can still live in peace?
< The pair will defend the eggs and fry. As the young become free swimming and began to wander their territory will expand. I would let them breed in the 75 gallon tank first and see how it goes.>
I also have a question about cories. Right now I have 6 pandas. I have read that the more there are the more they will school and the minimum number should be 6. But if I purchased 3 or 4 of another type I know they would not school with the pandas, but will usually stay with their own kind.. But when there is less than 6 of a certain type of Cory can they still be happy together in the smaller groups even though they won't school? Thank you for your help. James
< If they want to school then they will form their own little group regardless of the species. They will probably join the pandas if they really feel threatened.-Chuck.>

Re: Angelfish Mating and Cory Questions 8/22/09
Angelfish Possibly Mating
Thanks, I really hope none do mate because then I have to go and take out all the fry so the tank won't be overloaded as they grow.
<Actually watching cichlids like angelfish spawn is one of the most rewarding events in any freshwater aquarium set up. I hope you get to see it at least once.-Chuck>

Breeding marble veil tail angelfish  8/12/09
Hi, I'm writing you this because I've read a great deal on the site already, and I'm in need of some sage advice.
<Hmm... sage advice out of stock. Will parsley advice do? Or perhaps thyme advice?>
I have 2 breeding marble veil tail angelfish, among other fish, in a 45 gallon tank. They are healthy, as are all the other fish, and the female is laying eggs approximately every ten days.
<Sounds good.>
However, the eggs are eaten by the male as soon as they are out, sometimes he will even keep his mouth at the end of her breeding tube and catch the eggs as they come out.
<Unfortunately, absolutely typical for farmed Angelfish. The issue is that since breeders (including fish farmers) always remove the eggs after spawning and rear the young themselves. This means that there's no
"selection pressure" in favour of good parenting. Idiot Angelfish and Dutiful Angelfish have the same chances of passing on their genes. Over time, the fish we call the domesticated Angelfish has -- genetically speaking -- largely forgotten how to look after it's offspring. Now, having said that, if the parents feel nervous, even the best parent cichlids will eat their eggs, hoping to recycle the energy in those eggs so they can spawn again when they feel safe. The presence of other fish in this aquarium can be one reason the fish feel nervous, and for Angels, the best approach is to keep just a single pair in a bare tank with a upturned
flowerpot or similar that they can spawn on. Floating plants enhance the feeling of security; bright lights have the opposite effect. You may even want to cover the breeding tank with a blanket, so that only a little light
gets in.>
The first time she laid some eggs on a leaf, and the other on the side of the tank itself. Yesterday she was putting them all on one leaf, but they never stood a chance. I would really like these eggs to end up being
something more than a supplement to their fathers diet, but am not sure how to make this happen.
<You really can't.>
I've read that I should remove the male from the tank, but I hardly see how this can help since the male is needed to fertilize the eggs, (which he has shown no interest in doing.)
<Very typical.>
I've also read that after the first couple of times she lays the eggs he might stop eating them.
<This does, sometimes, happen. However, if you spend any time talking with Angelfish breeders, you'll discover that bad parenting skills are very common. So while you can, perhaps should, let your fish practise their breeding skills, if, after a few months, they still aren't doing things right, they may well never learn.>
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: breeding marble veil tail angelfish   8/12/09
Thank you for your prompt reply.
<My pleasure.>
I assure you I'm not going to make a habit of sending you e-mails every time a question concerning my fish comes to mind.
<We don't mind! But you may find using the Search tool speeds things up.>
There is so much conflicting information to be found on the internet, that I typically end up with more questions than answers, and the folks at the local pet shop don't seem to be interested in telling me anything that might keep me from making a purchase.
<There's a great book called "A Fishkeeper's Guide to Fish Breeding" by Chris Andrews that has been out of print for a while, but you can pick up used (e.g., Amazon) for very little money. Indeed, at the moment I see Amazon has it listed for one measly cent. It covers all the basic information you need, and goes into significant depth with regard to the breeding of the most popular species, including Angels. See if your library has a copy, but failing that, picking up this book from a used book store or online would be well worthwhile.>
Of course it could very well be that they simply aren't that knowledgeable.
<Some may be bluffing, others quoting from books. Sometimes things change over the years, as fish species become domesticated or inbred. I bred Angelfish around 1989, just before I went to university. Even then,
egg-eating was very common, but without the Internet, we mostly gleaned information from books. Since the books were written in the 60s and 70s, inbreeding of Angelfish wasn't such an issue, and most books merely said it took time for the parents to get it right. Mine never did, so I pulled the eggs, and reared the fry manually.>
So I do appreciate you taking the time to reply. Anyway, I normally like to do things on my own, for the most part, and all the fish seem to be doing well, and have been for months now, so there will be no more
questions, unless something truly peculiar happens, like they begin to sprout wings and fly around the room like birds.
<We'd need video evidence of this before publication...>
I will try your suggestions, and maybe even put some soft music and candle light on for them, and hope for the best. Thank you.
<May well help. Since there's no real need to breed Angelfish, it may well be worthwhile letting nature take its course. You might also try and track down a copy of Paul Loiselle's "Cichlid Aquarium" book. Although far from an easy book to read, and a bit dated in its approach, there's much on Angelfish in there, as well as plenty of information on breeding. In particular, he covers the use of things like "target fish" to make adult
Angels bond better, and "dither fish" to make them feel more secure. An example of the former would be a harmless but well armoured algae-eater, like an Ancistrus, that the cichlids would see as a threat, but not an
invincible one. For the latter, things like Danios or Hatchetfish might be used, since these would convey to the Angels that there are no predators about, while not themselves being big enough to be seen by the Angels as potential threats. If you adopt a more "scientific" approach and view the whole thing as a problem to explore, understand, and perhaps solve, then it may well be less frustrating than it is. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: breeding marble veil tail angelfish 8/13/09
Thanks again for the valuable input.
<You're welcome.>
At this point I'm baffled. Yesterday I moved both Angelfish to another aquarium, a 29 gallon that had already been set up and cycled long ago. I removed the few fish that were in that tank and temporarily placed them in the 45. I placed a flowerpot in the lovers tank and turned off the light, as I suspected it wouldn't be long before the eggs would be laid. I was right. About 3 hours later I looked into the tank and one of them was laying eggs, not on the flowerpot, but on a leaf. Nothing surprising there at all. I was excited, as I didn't see the other fish eating any of the eggs. I had visions of little wigglers in a day or two, I was so happy I was even going to name the first wiggler after you, since you helped make it all possible. Now comes the baffling part- the fish I clearly saw laying the eggs this time is the fish that I thought was the male eating the eggs the previous time. I have now seen BOTH of these fish lay eggs.
<Ah, I see.>
It is clear they are a couple, that they have paired off, but it also appears that they are both female.
<Happens. Do look carefully at the spawning papillae. Those of females are shorter, thicker, and have a rounded profile. Males have longer, thinner, sloping papillae with a distinctly tapering profile.>
I have two Black Lace Angels in the 45 gallon they came from as well, but they are not mates with the Veil Tails, of that much I'm sure. Maybe you have heard of this before, but it's new to me, and I am unable to locate any information online about it.
<Actually, same-sex partnerships among Angelfish are quite common.>
I Googled 'Lesbian Angelfish', and that search produced many interesting results, some of them even about fish,
<The mind boggles!!!>
but nothing that would shed any light on my problem. So, in the proverbial nutshell, I have two female Angelfish that are mates, so there will be no fry.
<Indeed.>
You're far more experienced than I am with all of this, so I ask you, have you ever heard of this?
<Yes. Do look carefully at the fish to sex them by their spawning papillae.
But otherwise, there's not much you can do. Adding them to a group containing some males should encourage them to choose more appropriate spawning partners. I wouldn't add a male directly in case this "pair" start attacking him as a threat. Or rather, if you try this approach, keep an eye on the male, and act accordingly. Cheers, Neale.>

Will two male angelfish pair up?   8/10/09
I have searched everywhere and even asked my local fish store a question about two adult male angelfish pairing up.
<Hmm... one problem is that Angelfish are difficult to sex except when spawning. So unless you've seen the shapes of their genital papillae, you don't know if your fish are males or females. As the Bene Gesserit would say, "Do not count a man dead until you have seen his body. And even then you can make a mistake." Just so with Angelfish; just because you've seen two Angels spawn, it doesn't mean they're a boy or a girl. Neither are the shapes of their bellies, the humps on their heads, or their social behaviours of any value at all.>
When my tank was initially set up, I had two angelfish that appeared to have paired up. They were cleaning a site, had breeder tubes extended and would keep all other angels at the other end of the tank.
<The males will have quite narrow, somewhat angled, genital papillae.
Often, these are visible a day or more before actual spawning. Females have shorter, blunter, more rounded papillae, and often these are not visible until spawning actually begins.>
I moved them into a separate 30 gallon tank by themselves and left them there for a couple of months. There were no eggs laid. In talking with my local fish store owner, he said he thought that maybe the angel I assumed to be female could have possibly aborted the eggs she was carrying due to the move. After purchasing additional angelfish, one of the new angels was very definitely a gravid female.
<How can you tell a gravid female from a fat male? I certainly couldn't tell them apart. Let me be crystal clear on this: Angelfish are virtually impossible to sex except when they are actually spawning, when you can see one fish laying eggs, and the other following along behind her, that second fish having a genital papilla of different shape. "Homosexual" pairings of females have been reported from time to time, so simply because on fish is laying eggs doesn't automatically mean the other one is a male You MUST check the genital papilla. Obviously, if a pair produce healthy eggs and fry, you have a pair.>
I separated her along with two angels that I knew to be males. After the male from the first pair paired with her, they laid several times and I now have babies.
<Good.>
Unfortunately that female died from what I think was a swim bladder problem.
<No such thing. The "swim bladder problem" is along the lines of "gremlins causing airplanes to crash". It doesn't actually mean anything. Hobbyists use the term "swim bladder problem" when they have no idea why their fish died. Nine times out of ten, the problem was an opportunistic (i.e., avoidable) bacterial infection brought on by a water quality, water chemistry, or dietary issue.>
I have now put the first two angels back in the same tank together. They immediately dropped breeder tubes and began showing a bit of aggression toward each other. They are the only two in the tank.
<If both fish showed their genital papillae quickly, there's a good chance both are males.>
It has been a week now and they do occasionally show some light aggression with pecking at each other and chasing each other, but nothing major and breeder tubes are still extended.
<Again, consistent with having two males.>
My question is could two males possibly pair up.
<Unlikely to pair, but they could well develop some sort of social bond.
Outside of spawning, Angels swim about in groups, so they alternate between being pair-forming and school-forming fish. Hence, two fish of the same sex could well school together.>
I know from looking at other posts that two females will in the absence of a male but no one has answered the question of two males. Their breeder tubes look almost identical.
<Female genital papillae are obviously different, and only visible immediately before spawning.>
The one that I cannot tell the sex on does not have fullness through the abdomen like my female that died. The other angel is a proven male. Your help in this matter would be greatly appreciated
Thank you,
Shannon
<Cheers, Neale.>

Pterophyllum (compatibility, breeding behaviour)   6/26/09
Hello All
So I have a 55 g setup, established, running for a year and a half.
Everything is balanced, I do regular water changes. My fish count is a little high, but I have a powerful filter, along with the aforementioned regular water changes. In my aquarium, I have:
1 Ctenopoma acutirostre
3 Pangio kuhlii
4 Corydoras (various)
1 Gobioides broussonnetii
<A brackish/marine fish; doesn't really belong here, and won't live its full lifespan under freshwater conditions.>
1 Ancistrus spp.
1 Macrognathus siamensis
1 Epalzeorhynchos frenatum
3 Kryptopterus bicirrhis
2 Unidentified rainbowfish, most likely Chilatherina bletheri
And, my most recent acquisitions, 2 Pterophyllum scalare
I mainly have a question regarding the angelfish.
<Fire away.>
I plan to get two more, but also give away my E. frenatum, as he is getting too aggressive.
<I'd be very careful about adding more Angels; adult Angels are pair-forming, and unless kept in reasonably large groups (six or more) mated pairs often bully other Angels kept with them.>
I want to possibly breed the angels, and I will have homes for the remaining two that are unpaired.
<Ah, this being the case, I'd get six, let them pair off, and then rehome the surplus four.>
My current two are quarter-size. I do not want my K. bicirrhis being attacked whatsoever, as they are some of my favorite fish in my aquarium. I also understand that the C. acutirostre may eat any young angels, but I can deal with that when the time comes.
<Provided the Angels are deeper than, say, a Congo Tetra, your Climbing Perch will be completely trustworthy.>
So, overall, the question that I put forth from this is: How aggressive are spawning/breeding P. scalare?
<Potentially, very aggressive, and will try to maintain an area of clear space about 30 cm radius around the breeding spot.>
Thanks
-L.K.
<Cheers, Neale.>

Angelfish Spawn  6/9/09
Hello,
<Hi there Lily>
For months I did research on Discus Fish because I thought they were amazing fish, so I did all the research I could, I had all my previous fish in an established tank die off,
<!?>
so I planned on getting Discus. I bought 2 little Discus fish to start off and to accompany them I got 2 small Angel Fish as well.
<Mmm... need to really start with more than two individuals... and these two species are not good to mix...>
(I have been using only RO water, temperature is consistently 84F and PH is 6.2 and nitrates and nitrites are checked every week and are always good as well.) A couple weeks later I got a larger Discus fish and as time has gone by I have added 2 African dwarf frogs and 2 clown loaches. This entire time I have been researching Discus fish and their water quality and temperature requirements and little do I know I came home from work on Friday 6/05/09 and one of the leafs on my real plants is covered in little white eggs. Not knowing anything about Angelfish, because I've been doing so well keeping up with keeping the Discus alive I realized the Angelfish were the ones that had spawned. I started noticing the Angelfish and the Discus eat at the leaf with the eggs, so I instantly decided to put the leaf into a floating breading tank with in my 30 gallon tank. It has only been about 4 days and nothing is happening.
<Mmm, at a similar temperature? That is, 78 F.? Likely the eggs are not fertilized... Not uncommon with "new spawners"...>
Again, I have no knowledge of angelfish and did not know what else to do.
At that time I wasn't even sure if it was fertilized or not. I tried doing as much research as quickly as I could. I didn't find too much information at that time. I was then referred to this website, so here I am. My question is, how do I know if it is fertilized.
<Will hatch or no... often fungus (turn white... decompose) in time if not...>
Right now the leaf is covered in all white very fuzzy looking eggs. (probably dead by now).
<Ah yes>
Also, was that ok to do?
<To move them? Yes... There are some techniques... adding gentle aeration,
perhaps an antifungal (Methylene Blue is very safe, summat effective)...>
It was not planned and very unexpected so I do not have a separate tank I can use to put the parents or the leaf covered in eggs into. I just went to the local fish store where I bought the angelfish pair and they sold me Methylene Blue.
<Ahh!>
What are your thoughts about this product?
<See above, WWM>
I have not had another spawn just yet, I just had the first one a few days ago. I definitely want to be more prepared next time. Any words of advice are much appreciated.
THANKS
Lily
<Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwangelreprofaqs.htm
and the linked files above... and consider visiting a public library and the Net (used and new) for books on this cichlid's culture... There is much known, to be shared re Pterophyllum successful husbandry. Bob Fenner>

Raising Baby FW Angelfish   4/19/09
I have tried to raise angelfish with their parents and was successful only twice. They love to eat the eggs or spawn.
<Normal for tank-bred Angelfish. Because they're artificially reared on fish farms, and have been for generations, we've not selected for good parenting in the way "the wild" would do. Net result, Angels that don't know how to look after their babies. Sometimes they learn after a series of failed attempts, but often they never do.>
Since then I have been trying to raise them in a 3 gallon tank at 80 degrees, but they develop for 10 days and then die (just before they're ready for swimming and food).
<Right, the thing with cichlid fry is this: they need both the right food, and good water quality. It's easy to offer them too much food, ruin the water, and end up with dead fry. For this reason, although the babies are
tiny, you'll actually find an 8-10 gallons tank a much better starting point. I can't see how you could use a 3 gallon tank with any hope of success. It's just too little water to dilute water quality problems.>
I do not understand why they will not start swimming and eat. I have offered them APR (artificial plankton rotifer) and live baby brine.
<Domesticated Angelfish fry should eat just about anything, even quality powdered flake foods, such as Hikari First Bites. Indeed, cichlids generally are very easy to rear because they are large enough to consume
most foods. So assuming you're providing food at the right time (3-4 days after hatching) feeding them shouldn't be too difficult. Rotifers would be a bit small, in my opinion, but brine shrimp nauplii are certainly taken, and within a few days (perhaps even immediately) finely powdered flake should be taken as well.>
My lack of success stumps me. Any suggestions?
<If you haven't already bought/borrowed "Fish Breeding" by Chris Andrews, I'd highly recommend it; it's cheap, easy to read, but packed with useful information on breeding Angels and lots of other popular species. I bought my copy in 1986, and it's still in print!>
Gary
<Cheers, Neale.>

Angelfish breeding 10/29/08
I have a pair of young angel koi in an overcrowded, 50 gal. community tank in my office. (No chance for another tank. I need to be practical.)
<While this is fine from a human perspective, you can't expect animals to make allowances -- millions of years of evolution in favor of one particular set of breeding conditions aren't easily undone.>
The angels seem to have had eggs about 4 times and each time, something has happened - Plecos got them, I stuck the net in, etc., to lose the eggs or fry. This time, however, with new silk plants in the tank, they picked a spot dead center of the tank. The mass is hatching and the leaf is shaking under the wriggling mass. Not yet free swimming.
<OK.>
Without space for another tank or additional equipment, I would like to see about saving some fry it at all possible. The parents seem to be doing a great job - having about 15 other fish cowering in corners of the tank - including a couple of large silver dollars. Should I just leave everything as is or should I move the mass?
<With commercial Angelfish -- like your Koi Angels -- it is almost always best to remove the eggs to another tank and rear them yourself. Inbreeding over the years means that Angelfish usually make bad parents. They're all manually reared on farms, so there's been no selection in favor of "competent" Angelfish so far as breeding goes. That yours haven't eaten their eggs is actually pretty unusual!>
Should I wait for them to be free swimming? If I move the fry, will the parents stop attacking the other fish in the tank?
<When you remove the eggs or fry, the parents will potter about recharging their batteries for a few days, and then set about cleaning a spawning site and then spawning soon after.>
My only option seems to be to move the fry to a floating baby tank which is lined with a mesh bag since last time the few fry I had fell through the bottom.
<Floating breeding traps and nets are a bit of a racket really, and no serious fishkeeper uses them except perhaps for isolating livebearer fry from their parents. You're free to experiment with different traps and nets, but that's likely good money after bad. Up to you. The Angels will certainly pump out batches of eggs every month, at least, so you're got leeway for errors from that perspective.>
I know that I will have an issue with feeding, but I am going to try with frozen baby brine.
<Baby Angelfish are very easy to rear, initially with brine shrimp nauplii if you have them, but even good quality baby fish food such as Hikari First Bites will work adequately well.>
Thanks for your help.
Doug
<Seriously, the only reliable way to rear Angelfish fry is with a 10-20 gallon tank into which you can add the eggs, together with an air-powered filter, and a few drops of anti-fungal medication. Once they hatch, wait for them to become free swimming, then feed. Letting the adults rear the fry is usually unsuccessful. I can't imagine rearing the eggs in a net or trap will work, but feel free to experiment and prove me wrong! Baby Angelfish grow rapidly, and even if you're lucky in the floating trap, after a couple of weeks post-hatching they will need bigger quarters anyway. Obviously they'll be eaten by larger fish, but in their own tank are pretty robust if a little prone to water quality issues. Much like any other cichlid, really. Good luck, Neale.>

Urgent question! Angelfish repro.    11/30/07
Good morning!
<Hello,>
What a great and informative site, thanks for that!
<You're welcome!>
I do have a question however that I have not been able to find an answer to, some come close, but not quite what I am looking for so maybe you can help me?
My angelfish suddenly started to spawn, I was not prepared at all, never thought 2 randomly picked angels would fall in love, turn out to be a boy and girl to begin with. Anyway, of the first eggs I have 7 left, which will be 3 weeks old tomorrow, as of hatching. Yesterday morning the largest one, and strongest, so I thought laid dead on the bottom, very, very disappointing and discouraging. I have no idea what killed him, especially because he was just fine the night before, and the weaker smaller ones are still alive.
<Hmm... this does sometimes happen with egg-laying fish. The main problem is usually water quality. Bacteria and fungi can work their way through eggs and small fish. Because the small fish stay close to the substrate, the bottom of the tank is a potential source of infection. Most breeders like to use bare-bottomed tanks so they can siphon out detritus from the bottom of the tank every day. Sand or gravel collect detritus and consequently bacteria and fungi.>
My problem now is that some of the others are laying sideways on the bottom, sometimes they swim around and seem just fine and then they go and lie on the bottom, sideways but making an effort to swim. They are voracious eaters, so that gives me some hope, also that this has been going on for a couple of days and they still eat and everything. What could it be?
<My guess would be water quality. In any case, since the adults will spawn every few weeks, you can change your procedure for rearing the fry until you find a system that works.>
I am little by little weaning them of the distilled water they have been living in, now I use half/half distilled and drinking water, I will eventually change to 100% treated tapwater.
<Why distilled water? Contrary to myth, Angelfish do not need very soft water. They do not live in the same blackwater environments as Discus. Something around 5-10 degrees dH and pH 7.0 is just about perfect. This is especially true for farmed Angelfish, which are a hybrid not a true species and will live and breed perfectly well in tap water.>
I do regular water changes, that is everyday, I feed them 3 times a day freshly hatched brine shrimps that are never older than 24 hours, most of the time much less and I clean up the "mess" after every meal, which is when I replace the water I have taken out with new water.
<I'd recommend varying the diet. Brine shrimp nauplii are a good "first food" but their nutritional value is not great. Once the fry are swimming about, you should quickly wean them onto baby fish flake or liquid fry food. Angelfish will normally accept these at once. After a couple of weeks, they should be taking finely ground flake and Daphnia.>
The tank has a sponge filter and bubbles and they seem to be just fine, not gasping for air or anything, just swimming sideways or lying on the bottom in that way. Yesterday I added some Epsom salt to the water, at a ratio of 1 TBSP/10gallons, just in case it is swimming bladder disease, which it does look like, right?
<Not really, no. I wouldn't be adding Epsom salt to a breeding tank. What baby fish require is CONSTANT water chemistry. Doesn't really matter what it is... if the eggs have hatched, the water is probably fine. But you do need to avoid changes in chemical composition.>
But would they have not already died? I mean, they seem otherwise healthy??? I do not dare add the recommended dose of 1 TBSP/5 gallons because they are still babies, or should I???
<No.>
What is in there now does not seem to do the trick. As some more background info, when the eggs where laid at first I left them in a breeding net in the parents' tank and moved them to another container the next day, but in the net, hanging in that container and in water from the parents' tank, mixed with some distilled water and Methylene blue that I filtered out as they hatched. Many hatched but most died eventually, lying on the bottom of the net, bloated.
<You should ALWAYS keep the eggs in constant water chemistry. Changing the water chemistry -- even to the "better" -- can cause problems. Much better to change the water chemistry in the breeding tank before spawning.>
The thing is that while I constantly changed the water back then, I was not able to clean the net material and I wonder if those bloated fry that died were attacked by bacteria?
<Very likely.>
I read that somewhere. And could it be that these 7 ones that survived have a bacterial infection???
<Yes.>
You can't tell by their (outer) appearance, they look quite normal, some are a little crooked, but that wasn't a problem before... The strange thing is that they were not always like this, it started just a couple of days ago... The second "batch" was placed in a glass container, in distilled water with Methylene blue, so I corrected many mistakes from the first time...
<As you say, you do need to keep trying new methods. Angelfish breeding is not especially difficult, but I would recommend leaving the parents to rear them if you can. Often, the adults eat the first few batches, but if you let them 5 or 6 times they should "get the hang of it". Cichlid parents clean the eggs much better than we can, and usually you end up with more baby fish.>
I have a second "batch" of babies, 12 days younger, they are doing quite well and are much livelier than the first ones and they seem to be doing great, no dead ones this morning, I think mom and dead are preparing for yet another spawn. The second "batch" was placed in a glass container, in distilled water with Methylene blue, so I corrected many mistakes from the first time and I can notice the difference...
<Exactly so.>
I do hope you can help me because it is so frustrating, I know it is up to me to do something, that I am doing something wrong, but what??? By the way, this sideway swimming started when they were still swimming in 100% distilled water, so it could not have been the change in the mix of water. The water temperature is quite stable, about 80/82 degrees, that is not much of a problem since I live in Miami.
<You seem to have a fair idea what's going on already. For what it's worth, I concur with your hypothesis. Try again, this time keeping the tank as clean as possible (no substrate and treat with anti-Fungus/Finrot medication) and DO NOT change the water chemistry once the eggs have been laid.>
I look forward to your advice and thank you in advance!
Best regards,
Linda
<Hope this helps, Neale.>

Re: Urgent question! 11/30/07
Hi Neale,
<Linda,>
many thanks for your quick reply, I am now planning the following, what do you think? (Sorry to bother you so much...)
<It's fine...>
The babies are in bare bottom tanks, the parents spawned in the community tank and I took them out after mom and dad were done, and moved them to bare bottom tanks of which I syphon out any dirt on the bottom once or twice a day before they hatch and feed and afterwards after each time I feed them, so the bottoms are pretty clean, I think.
<Good. Use a pipette or similar to remove any silt as and when you see it. The cleaner the tank, the more babies will survive.>
With regard to the water quality, I take your advice seriously, and now I would like to take them out of the Epsom salt water. What do you advise: can I just make a 100% water change to treated tap water?
<No. What's done is done. With baby fish, rapid changes in water chemistry can be lethal. Go slow. Maybe 10% per day water changes in this case.>
That way I get rid of the Epsom salt right away and I get them weaned off the mixture they are in. Or should I do this gradually (considering what you say about constant water chemistry)?
<Yep.>
Also, you mentioned a fungus/fin rot treatment, I have something with Malachite green (Quick Cure), can I use that and do I use the indicated dose, or less? Won't this kill the sponge pump?
<Use half-dose for now, but even full dose will do no harm to filter bacteria *if used as directed* on the bottle!>
After treatment do I change the water little by little to clear out the medicine, as in the community tank?
<If you want. In practise most medications get metabolized by bacteria within a few days anyway, so it's debatable whether much is left behind. A water change would do no harm though.>
If not, what do you recommend? This is your advice for the first batch, the once swimming on their sides? They seem to do a little better now, it comes and goes, but they are always hungry so that gives me hope... All of this is about the first spawn, the second ones are doing good so far, getting weaned off to treated tap water little by little and I will feed them according to your suggestions.
<Breeding egg-layers is always a bit funny like this. Basically you want to do two things: avoid germs, and avoid water chemistry changes. Provided you do this, you should be fine. As for the sick baby fish now, I think it best to see how things go.>
They are now in a separate tank but with only bubbles, no sponge pump or anything, can I balance the water chemistry by making frequent water changes with treated tap water?
<Yes, but don't change more than 25% in one day. Big changes will do more harm than good, given we're playing around with water chemistry here.>
This is all overwhelming but I am desperately trying to keep all the fry alive!
<Don't get too stressed. Remember, fish produce lots of eggs because most never make it in the wild. Think about the thousands of eggs produced by Oscars, but in the wild only a couple will reach maturity. So don't invest too much emotion in every single baby fish! Rather, step back, and use each batch of fry as a learning experience. Make notes of what you did each time. You can then compare results, and find what works best *for you*.>
My plan for the next spawn, which I am afraid will be tomorrow is to take out the leaf the parents LOVE to spawn on and put it separately in water out of the parents tank, which is treated, but then how do I make the change to regular treated tap water? Or can I just take out the leaf and put it in a bare bottom tank with treated tap water and Methylene blue and take that from there?
<Hmm... in this instance, take water from the spawning tank and put that into egg-hatching tank. Move plastic plant to the egg-hatching tank, which will now contain water from the spawning tank. Top-up spawning tank with dechlorinated tap water.>
It is in any case to maintain water chemistry that way.
<Yes.>
That is the nice thing about distilled water, it is chemically stable and easy to change, the second batch is being weaned off it gradually and is doing much better than the first at their age!
<Ah, but distilled water isn't stable. It's very UNSTABLE. Because it lacks carbonate hardness, pH fluctuates wildly. In addition, almost no fish cannot thrive in it. You need to mix distilled water with some hard water. I recommend a 50-50 mix for angelfish, so you have 5-10 dH and around pH 6.5-7. I've bred Angelfish in the hard, alkaline water of Southern England (around 20 dh and pH 8) so water chemistry is far from critical with the popular Angel varieties sold in shops.>
Right now it is impossible for me to get mom and dad a separate tank and have them raise the kids themselves, I totally agree with you that would be the best. (besides my husband would have a fit if they would start eating their eggs...)
<Every angelfish I have ever seen eats its eggs for the first few batches.>
When it comes to food, I will go out this afternoon and see what other baby food I can find, the first ones are in any case big enough for finely crushed (baby) flakes, I will experiment with that as you suggested.
<Just regular flakes, ground up using teaspoons or a pestle/mortar will do the trick. Hard-boiled egg yolk, in tiny amounts, is also surprisingly good.>
I would really appreciate your helping me to make a plan of action for the first babies, if you can agree with what I am planning or how should I do this? I am sorry to bother you, I read a lot on the internet and try to learn as I go, but sometimes I am so in doubt...
<Do read Bob Fenner's intro to Angelfish, here -- http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwangelfishes.htm . It's ironic, Angels are so popular but are actually quite tricky to breed at home. Patience and practise are the keys.>
Many thanks and regards,
Linda
<I hope this helps, Neale.>

A question... Finding culture info. FW Angels  -11/27/2007
Sir,
I m Fatima, PG student in Aquaculture at CIFE Mumbai. I would like to know about the works done on Angelfish Pterophyllum spp. (e.g.. effect of temperature on the reproduction of angelfish). this will help me to continue my research on angelfish . please help me for the same with your valuable knowledge
Thanking You
Fatima S. Hameed
M.F.Sc Aquaculture
CIFE
Mumbai
<Mmm, much of the more recent pet-fish literature is picked up by citation services... Am very sure you're familiar with computer search bibliographies, and am as sure that all pertinent culture info. for Pterophyllum is available... Bob Fenner>

Angelfish repro.   4/27/07
Hi. This is Glenda. How are you?
<Fine, how are you?>
It's been a long time since I last wrote to you on the 25th July 2006. I guess that's because everything has been going ok with my fish so far. Now, I just watched my angelfish (black & silver female) laid eggs about an hour ago and the male (orange & white) fertilized them. Actually they are still at it. I never knew they crossbred.
<They aren't crossbreeding. They're the same species so it's about as surprising as people of different skin colour breeding, i.e., not surprising at all.>
Quite interesting but my problem is they laid them on the tube of my Aquaclear filter. What do I do from here?
<At best, take the tube out and replace with another from the store. Rear the eggs yourself in another tank. Angels are terrible parents, and routinely eat the eggs, so almost all angelfish breeding is done manually. Actually, wild-caught angels are very good. But mass-produced angels are very poor.>
I believe the other fish (2 gouramis, 2 Plecos, 2 guppies, 1 black ghost, 2 upside-down catfish, 1 yoyo loach, 2 rainbow sharks, 1 albino shark) in the tank will eat the eggs or the young ones when they hatch.
<Yes they will. The catfish or loaches during he night.>
Thanks for your advice.
<Good luck, Neale>

Maybe Angel Fish Eggs   4/12/07
Hello everyone how's it going.
<Well, it's going...>
I have a 45 gallon show tank with two angel fish, now I have reason to believe that they have laid eggs on my filter tube.
<Not impossible. But be sure not to confuse with snail eggs. If they're arranged one at a time on the tube and about 1 mm across, they're fish eggs, if they're a lump of jelly with lots of tiny eggs inside them, they're snail eggs.>
There little white and clear circles which I believe to be eggs of the angel fish because 1 of the angel fish wont let any of the other fish near them not even the other angel which is a little bit smaller. Ever since these eggs showed up my two angel fish have been fighting each other locking lips and biting off scales.
<Sounds nasty. Keep an eye for infections, and if the fins start looking tatty or you see red sores or wounds, add Melafix or equivalent.>
Why do you guys think there fighting all of a sudden...
<Difficult to say. But wild angels are *not* schooling fish when spawning, and pairs will naturally hold a territory (usually a bit of wood) and shoo off any other angels. As with other cichlids where the males and females are similar, angels works as a pair and share child minding duties more or less equally. The problem is that mass-produced angels simply don't behave in the same way as wild angels, and are very difficult to predict, with some specimens being gentle and harmless and other homicidal (piscicidal?) maniacs. This is why angelfish breeders tend to get six or more juveniles, rear them together, and then isolate matched pairs that seem to be working out and get rid of the rest. Putting two together and hoping for the best doesn't normally work, even if you can sex them (which you can't, at least not reliably).>
...and do you think that's those white and clear balls on my filter are eggs, do you think I should remove one of the angels?
<Angelfish make, in my opinion/experience, terrible parents. Any natural skills they had for rearing baby angels have long since been bred out of them by generations of commercial spawning in favour of colours, longer fins, etc. They are the complete opposite of Kribs, which are the most amazing parents even in community tanks. So if you want baby angels, yes, remove the eggs. If you don't care, leave them in. Usually the angels eat the eggs after a day or two. Anyway, there are lots of Angelfish resources here; start at http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwangelfishes.htm and work outwards.>
  Thanks
<Cheers, Neale>

Breeding Angelfish For The First Time 9/20/06
I bought 2 angels about 6  months ago and they are now making babies. We were out of town for the weekend and when we got back there were babies. My question is this. The male (?) is taking care of the kids but is very aggressive to his mate, is this normal?
< New, young parents are often confused about what to do and when to do it. After a few spawns they seem to figure out that they both are on the same side.>
I put in a glass divider for now and tomorrow I will be getting some brine shrimp eggs. Did I do the right thing in dividing the tank or is this just breeding behavior and they are going to lay more eggs?
< Sometimes when a mate is separated it affects the pair bond. They really need to sort this out between themselves. You may have saved some of the fry but affected the pair. Keep them separated until you remove the fry. They should be taken away from the parents unless that two weeks are they may be eaten. After that put the pair back together.>
Please advise thanks.
< Once they get going they spawn as often as every two weeks.-Chuck>

Feeding Baby Angelfish  9/9/06
Hello Crew, I have about a dozen and a half angelfish fry (the rest died  because of stupid mistakes made by me - I feel so bad because there were so  many!) So they were just coming out of their eggs two weeks ago. So I guess that  would make them about a week and a half. I have been feeding them baby brine  shrimp ever since they hatched but how old should they be before switching them  to flake food?
<You can start adding finely crushed flake food at any time.>
I have tried to crush some up but the don't take it. What are  some ways you can transfer them to flake without starving them? What other  foods can I feed them, foods they will eat and are  healthy? Thanks
< You have them imprinted on baby brine for now and that is all they know. feed them three times a day. Give them the brine on the first and third feeding and give them the crushed flake on the second feeding. Eventually give them crushed flake food on the first and second feeding and top them off with baby brine on the third feeding. Microworms will work well too. When they get older you can add daphnia.-Chuck>

Breeding  FW Angelfish Are Aggressive   8/19/06
Hello Bob and Crew, Ever since one of my angels laid eggs, she has been extra  aggressive towards the other one. She was always dominant, but it is getting  pretty bad. I figured that if I add in another angel and switch the decor around  that would give her more to think about. We have some angels at the pet  store where I work that are similar of size but the one I have permission to  take is the most aggressive in the tank. Will this be a problem if the new one  wants to be the dominant one? I just don't want my angel to get beat up because  she's real pretty and all she "can" do is hide in the back corner beneath the  plants.
Thanks for your help and  advice!
< Angelfish are cichlids and really don't like other fish around when they have fry or eggs. An over protective mother with guard the eggs from her mate if she thinks that he is going to eat them. Adding more fish will give her more fish to beat up. If she has no mate then reduce the temp to the mid 70's and she will stop breeding and she will not be as aggressive.-Chuck>

Angels Breeding  7/23/06
I happy to say that my female angelfish is laying eggs... one by one.
<Mmm...>
The only problem is that when the female rubs up to the plant, the male comes by and eats them....
<Mmm, trouble... happens>
all of them! Is there anything I can do to keep him from eating the eggs, and have him fertilize them?
<Best to "let practice" here a few batches... provide as calm a setting as possible... removing other tankmates that may be making them "nervous", less foot-traffic outside the tank. I urge patience here>
My angels are pretty young, about 6 months so could he just not be experienced enough to know he has to fertilize them?
<Ah, yes, good way to put this>
Also, I felt that if the eggs do hatch if he stops eating them, I would leave the fry in there. What should I feed them and is there any special care I need to do, should I move them away from my other fish?
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwangelfishes.htm
and the linked files at top>
(I only have a spare 10 gallon) I have a Gourami, platys, angels (only the 2 that are laying eggs) Cory cat and swordtails. Will the angels protect them from the other fish to keep them from being lunch?
<Mmm, to an extent, for a period of time... but there are related issues: The angels may well damage the other fishes in such defense...>
When can the fry be on their own if they survive?
<When of size... read my friend>
Thanks! - Any background, not so obvious, info would really help as I have only been in the aquariums business for about 6 months!
<A hobby, personal interest of ever filling wonder for minds that are open to possibility. Bob Fenner>

Overfeeding Angelfish Fry
Hello, I have about 250 Angelfish fry that are about 6 weeks old. My question is can you overfeed the babies. After feeding them fresh baby brine they seem to get so fat I'm afraid that they are going to "pop". Any response will be so helpful. This is my first attempt at raising angels and I love it. Debbie
< Yes you can. Feed them less and make the work a little harder for their food.-Chuck>

Breeding Angelfish Cichlids - 2/28/2006
Dear WWM crew, Whenever I have problems or concerns with my aquariums I you are ready to help. It's priceless and my fish and I are very much grateful for
everything. Usually my topics are saltwater as far as I'm fairly new in that part of the hobby. I have many-many years of freshwater experience and considered myself an advanced fish keeper. But I got a pleasant surprise. In my Amazonian 30 gal set-up my 2 favorite angelfishes decided to pair and have babies.
It started over a month ago. One morning I just noticed some fish eggs on a leaf of a Swordplant and my velvet black and black lace angelfish
guarding it. I set up a nice 2 gal hatching tank with a heater, lights and sponge filter. Added water from main tank , adjusted temperature to
match and transferred eggs on a leaf there. All eggs died, nothing hatched. It was very sad. Two weeks later there were eggs again. I waited until fry hatched. Then, while they still were attached to the leaf but hatched I transferred them to the same little tank. Some of the fry started free swimming. I attempted to feed them frozen baby brine and Cyclop-eeze. But no luck, next day they all were dead. Once again my beautiful fish are guarding their eggs and now I'm planning to leave fry with the parents and just put a tank divider to
separate breeding pair from other fish. Hope fish will know what to do better than me. My question is - is it fairly safe to leave hatchlings
with the parents? When should I transfer free swimming fry into separate tank? And, mostly, what I did wrong so first two attempts were such a
fiasco? I read all the information on WWM and whatever I could find on the net and everything sounded so-o-o easy. What can be my problem?
Thanks again for all your support! Inna
< Some domesticated angelfish strains like blacks are very weak and survival rates can be down right depressing. To increase the odds gets the parents conditioned with lots of frozen /live foods and clean water. Angelfish eggs have a much better hatch rate if the pH is usually kept under 7. If you parents are the dominant fish in the tank then I would let them try to raise a spawn. The eggs usually hatch in three days and the fry are  hungry and usually free swimming in another three days. Try to hatch some live baby brine or get some micro-worms for their first food. The fry starve very quickly without two to three feedings a day. Remove the fry in a couple of weeks as the parents will be getting close to wanting to spawn again and they will be less protective of the fry. Frozen baby brine and Cyclop-eeze are very easy but not as good as the two alternatives I have recommended.-Chuck>
 

Re: Breeding FW Angelfish  - 3/1/2006 Thanks for your reply! Baby-angels started hatching today, they keep moving and I can see little tails. Parents are really great - constantly checking on the fry? Catching those which are trying to fall. I left the family in the main tank, just installed a divider. Now I have another question. Some sources suggest to add some Methylene blue or similar agent to keep infectious agents low. Should I do something like this? < When fish spawn sometimes the males don't fertilize all the eggs. After a short time these eggs die and start to fungus. Parental cichlids remove these dead eggs to prevent the fungus from killing the viable eggs. When the eggs are hatched artificially or away from the parents the eggs are not removed and the fungus can quickly spread to the good eggs and kill off the entire spawn. Antifungal agents reduce the rate of the fungus spreading until the eggs hatch.> And another question - how much of baby brine should I add per feeding? < Feeding fry in a big tank is a problem. When the fry become free swimming they need to be fed. In a big tank a teaspoon of live baby brine will be all over the tank with very little being available for the fry at the bottom. You need to raise enough baby brine to fill the fry's stomachs as least three times a day. Concentrate the baby brine to a fine soup and suck some up in an eye dropper. Squirt the baby brine into the school of fry. Don't worry about putting too much in the tank because the adults will eat any leftover.-Chuck> Thanks again for your help! Inna

Breeding Angels   2/9/06
     I have recently set up two 20 H breeder tanks for my angels. They are bare bottom tanks, heated to 82 degrees. I use hydro sponge filters. One pair of angels laid eggs on a breeding slate about 36 hours ago. At first the eggs were a translucent amber color. Now about half of the eggs are white. The white eggs seem to be larger than the others. Is this normal?
<Mmm, yes... for a first few batches of eggs... to fungus>
Do the eggs turn white after being fertilized or is this a fungus?
<The latter>
The tank has no measurable ammonia or nitrite. The nitrate reads somewhere between 5 and 10. Thanks for your help. This is the first time for the angels to lay eggs
outside of my community tank, where the eggs were always eaten in the past.
<Not to worry... remove the bad eggs (with a siphon or the whole batch), and they'll spawn again in a few weeks. Bob Fenner>

Breeding FW Angelfish   1/26/06
Good Morning, First, I would like to thank you all for the excellent advice and time you have devoted to guiding fellow aquarists. I currently have a 55g F/W planted community tank. The inhabitants are 4 angels, 2 discus, a Pleco, and 3 Chinese Algae Eaters. I noticed my angels pairing off a few weeks back.
When I got home from work on Monday, I noticed a pair of angels defending their eggs, which were attached to the tank wall. I tried to help them by making a divider out of egg crate, covered with nylon screening to keep hungry fish away. Unfortunately the Algae Eaters were able to squeeze through and ate their eggs. It was a bummer, but I am still happy to now know that I have a pair. I decided to use a 29g breeder tank to see if I can successfully breed my angels. The 29g will have a bare bottom, a strip of slate for eggs, a heater, and a sponge filter. The tank has a NO 24" fluorescent tube and a strip of under counter LEDs purchased from Home Depot. The LEDs are not actually the same as moon lights, but do make great subdued lighting for the tank. I was thinking about using the fluorescent on a 4-6 hour cycle with the LED's coming on 4 hours prior and 4 hours after.
Do the Angels need the fluorescent lighting in this breeder tank or would the dim LEDs make them more comfortable?
< If they are properly set up it should not matter.>
I am using 50% RO/DI and 50% treated tap water to fill the tank. Due to the simplicity of this tank, it should be easy to do frequent water changes. I was thinking 50% 2-3 times per week. I am not so sure how I should cycle this tank. Should I just let the water age for a couple of weeks? Should I maybe transfer a power filter from my community tank to give it a boost? I would hate to subject my beautiful angels to a tank that is not stable.
< Use the sponge filter. Place it in the original tank for a couple of weeks to get seasoned. Siphon any waste out of the bottom of the tank every day. Add Bio-Spira to get the sponge filter started immediately.>
Also, if I am successful, do you recommend using an antibiotic medication for raising fry?
< Not unless I see a specific disease.>
I plan on leaving the pair to rise their fry and hope that they will make good parents. I do have space for grow out tanks, if this endeavor is successful.
Thank you for your help. Have a great day! Steve
< At 80 F the eggs will hatch in three days. The fry will become free swimming in three more. Remove the fry after two weeks or the parents may eat them as they get ready to spawn again.-Chuck>

Half-Black Veil Angelfish, Breeding - 10/14/2005
Hi my name is Kenneth and I recently, finally came across 5 half-black veils for sale after 6 months of looking online and inquiring for them in my local area... I would love to breed them as they are so hard to come by.
<A good idea.>
Right now they are nickel size but I would like to know what are the first signs that a pair is pairing up?
<Usually they "hang out" in a pair, eventually begin defending a territory from other fish, especially other angels. It won't be for a while yet if they're just nickel sized.>
I have them in tank also with 4 jet-black veils of the same size I haven't had any luck with the black veils ..they ALWAYS DIE... ( I'm not bitter!) I was told that their immune systems are not as strong as other types of angels. Is this correct?
<Mm, I for one do not agree.... There is some sort of root cause; best that you find it and fix it (if possible).>
But anyways, I decided to give it another stab if they live and the half-blacks pair up with them that is ok with me too. I kind of thought it might help to strengthen the black veil species immunity
<Mm, not a species.... just a domestically bed color morph.... still Pterophyllum scalare.>
seeing as half-blacks tend to be sturdier and easier to get to survive. Is this erroneous thinking on my part?
<Most highly selectively bred fish (angels, guppies, Bettas) might have somewhat weakened immune systems or genetic troubles.... I think half-blacks will be as "problematic" as all-blacks.... Angels that are less extensively inbred (looking for something other than a recessive gene, perhaps) like silvers or marbles, might be less prone to problems. Breeding angels for specific traits and then mixing a pair of differing traits will provide you with different results than you perhaps want or expect.... Try a Google search on "angelfish genetics"; you will find out a lot about this topic.>
Thanks for your time and attention.
Kenneth B
<Wishing you well, -Sabrina>

Freshwater Angelfish Question
I have had a single angelfish in with 2 Bala sharks and misc. community fish in a 30 gal. aquarium for about 5 years. Tonight I noticed the angelfish viciously protecting hundreds of little clear eggs stuck to the under gravel filter tubing daring any of the other fish to even venture to that side of the aquarium. Since there is no male how did this happen?
<Merely unfertilized eggs laid out of frustration and desire to reproduce.>
Is there any way they could hatch
<No>
and if so is there anything that I should do? This fish generally eats every other fish in there that is smaller than her.
<Have a nice night. -Steven Pro>

Angelfish genetics
Hi, I would like to know what type of angelfish I would get when I cross a silver with a chocolate.  I would like to give them a name.  Thank you for any help you can give me.
<Well, crossing a wild-type (silver) angel with a chocolate angel will give you 100% Smokey angel fry.  Being that this is a well known strain, it already has a name (as above, "Smokey").  More on angelfish genetics here:  http://www.aquaworldnet.org/tas/ASgenetics.html .  -Sabrina>

German Red Angelfish fry
Dear Sirs:
  I have a pair of German Red Angels.
< These are a domesticated strain that are many many generations removed from the wild.>
  They have laid eggs many times and never grow longer they 5/16"  before they all die.  I hatch the eggs out in 2 1/2 gallon tanks with methyl blue added to the water to prevent fungus.   After they become free swimming I start doing 1 gallon water changes every day.  The pH is about 7-7.4.  The adult angels are doing fine in my water.  I feed them newel hatch brine shrimp daily.  The temp of the water is about 78-82.  I would really appreciate any and all help you can give me with these fish as I have looked on the internet with no- avail.  I have at present about 1000 baby angels swimming of various sizes.  A total of 4 pairs of adults including the Red's.  All the other baby angels do fine with the above regiment. I am at a lost as to what is happening with the Reds.
< The fact that all the other fry from the other pairs of angels are doing fine and your only problems are with the reds makes me think your problems are genetic and not environmental. These aquarium strains often produce offspring that are somewhat week and touchy to even the slightest conditions. Start with checking ammonia levels in the fry tank. Even with a large water change they could be building up in a small tank with lots of fry. The fry may not like the large water changes either. Maybe a little larger tank with smaller water changes. I would recommend that you start keeping a journal and vary the routine with these fish. Try different foods, different temperatures and different pH's. Change only one parameter at a time and keep track of the results. Eventually you will come up with a formula for maximizing the survival rates of each spawn. Your fish are probably very inbred too and may need to find some new stock from a different bloodline to strengthen the gene pool. -Chuck>
Thanks
Everett Martin

Threatening to Breed
Have been wondering if you ever found the reason for your angels dying?
<Hi again, Lorraine!  Unfortunately, it's still kinda-sorta up in the air what took my batch of Altums.  Having talked with Bob, though, I'm rather confidant that this "angel plague" is just Hexamita, and I should've treated with Metronidazole in food, rather than just in the water.  I'm equipped with a decent microscope now, so I hope to get some skin scrapes of infected angels and discus from the local stores to look at.>
And really need your help. My 6 angels have done great and when I saw they were getting bigger, got my 55 gal. tank. ( Had a 20 gal.) I had great luck cycling by using the old water from the 20 gal, part of the gravel and a sponge that had great bacteria. I put in 3 Harlequin Rasbora to finish up the cycle.
<Sounds great.>
Over this time, I noticed the fish starting to pair up. I put 2 of the pairs in the big tank and left the gold pair in the smaller tank.
<Yay!>
But, I DO NOT have room for more tanks and DO NOT want fry.
<Oh.  Then, boo!>
How would you recommend that I separate them?
<Frankly, I wouldn't separate them at all.  I'd keep the pairs paired up - perhaps even divide the 55 into three chambers (plastic needlepoint mesh works great) and let them do their thing.  If you've still got the 20 up and running, it could be your "grow out" tank, then.  And then your angels could reproduce and help pay for your hobby.  If you absolutely *do not* want to do this, I'd still leave them paired up, the two pairs in the 55 and one in the 20, or if necessary, all three pairs in the 55 (watch for aggression).  Put in some nice pieces of slate for them to lay their eggs on, and when you see eggs, pull 'em out and dispose of 'em.>
Males in the big tank and females in the small?
<Good luck on THAT!  Sometimes even the angels can't tell for sure who's what gender, let alone us.  Until their breeding tubes are out, or you catch 'em in the act, it can be *extremely* difficult to tell genders.>
I wish some one that wants to breed would have this " problem". Ha.
<Heh, what a problem to have, eh?  Perhaps you could turn the 20g into a tank for some kind of smallish predatory fish and get rid of the fry that way?  I do think it's best for nature to take its course and deal with the "problem" eggs and fry as they come, rather than trying to prevent the inevitable.>
Sincerely, Lorraine
<Good to hear from you again!  And wonderful to hear how great things are going!  Congratulations on happy, healthy "problems", I wish we could hear of more like this.  Wishing you well,  -Sabrina>

Substrates in Angelfish breeding tanks
Hi guys I need some advice on what kind of flooring a fish tank should have for breeding angelfish babies are coming but they go under pebbles we turned off the tank filter because we thought the fish were get sucked under but
then we found out that the fish just go under  .Help what do I do. GREAT WEB SITE THANKS. SIL.
< Angelfish breeders don't use any substrate at all. Just a bare tank with a sponge filter and a piece of slate for the adults to lay their eggs on. You could always pull the rock that they are breeding on and hatch the fry artificially-Chuck>
Silvia

Get the fry to eat dry?
Hello, wondering if someone could tell me how I can get my angel fish fry to start eating dry food. They are about 3.5 weeks old and all they've ever eaten is newly hatched brine shrimp. I've put in crushed flake and pellet but they will not take. Even tried them on frozen daphnia- no go. Should I quit the shrimp and they would have to eat the dry because of hunger? 
<Try smaller feedings of brine shrimp once a day. Offer them crushed flake food first thing in the morning. Make sure it is a high quality flake food. And then try the baby brine late in the day. See if the adults eat the flake food. Try OSI brine shrimp flake to start and then a general flake with brine shrimp flakes in it later on. -Chuck> 

Can a Silver angel and a Black angel breed?
< Absolutely.>
Also, I have a Black Ghost Knifefish about 4.5" in a 30 gallon tank, How long do I have to wait until I upgrade? In the Future I am thinking about planning a 55-gallon tank for him.
< Depending on how he is being raised and the kind of food he is eating I would say when he gets around 8 inches he will be ready for that 55 gallon. How long that will take will depend entirely on you. Good food, clean warm acidic water should have him growing in no time at all. -Chuck.>
Jahner

Angelfish Problems
I have a pair of Marble Angle fish. The last set of fry are about 3 months old. We removed them from the parents tank about three weeks ago from our 30 gallon tank. Recently, the female had not been eating, and 2 days ago she was laying upside down on the bottom of the tank. I thought for sure she was dying. The next day she seemed fine. Today we noticed her straight up in the bubbles, kind of acting like she wasn't getting enough air. Then after doing that she went back and laid on the bottom.  Is there anything I can do to help her??
<The stress of breeding has taken a toll on her and it sounds like she has succumb to an internal bacterial infection. Do a 30% water change, vacuum the gravel and clean the filter. Treat the tank with Metronidazole as per the directions on the package-Chuck>

FW Angelfish Flaking Out 7/16/05
I have one breeding pair of angelfish in a 32G tank with 4 clown loaches and 1 black ghost knife fish. The angels used to spawn quite often but maybe because I failed every time to keep the fry alive so they seems to be gradually slowing down with the spawning now. However, the female would still become full of eggs with a very round belly fairly quickly after the last spawning but she is holding the eggs longer and longer each time and she produces less and less eggs each time too. Sometime she carries her eggs up to 1 month (maybe even longer). I understand that the pair is acting weird probably because It realize that the fry won't survive (due to my failure). But I'm worry if all this egg carrying will cause the female any harm.
< Egg bound females do have problems.>
Also, even though they are not actually spawning and there's no eggs or fry around, they still chase the other fishes around like crazy. I believe that this is because, in their mind, they are still preparing to spawn, right?
< When preparing a territory to spawn the make no secret about it to the other fish.>
Therefore I'm planning to remove all the other fish to another tank already. But I'm wondering if there is any kind of fish I can put into the same tank with a breeding pair of angels? Since I have heard even with breeding pair of discus or Oscars, they can still have some tankmate. Is my tank not big enough to do that?
< I would recommend that you leave the pair of angels alone in the tank.>
Finally, I noticed on the label of the New Life Spectrum flakes it says that although flakes can sustain small fish, it is not good enough for big fish due to low consumption and they suggest pellet food. However, my angels only eat flakes. I just cannot get my angels to eat pellet, and they used to love the frozen food before but now they barely want them too. All they want is flake. How can I make them start eating pellet(s want them to have more varieties)? I have this problem even with my marine tank.
< Some Marine fish never seem to eat anything.>
Is there special ways to start fish eating pellet?
<Feeding medium sized fish pellets is a good idea. Feed the fish the same time every day. Only feed them enough food so that all of it is gone in two minutes once each day. Feed them 95 % flake and 5% pellets the first day. Increase the pellets by 5% per day while reducing the flakes by 5% per day. In a couple of weeks your fish are converted over.>
What caused the change of taste with my angels? Why did they suddenly stop taking the frozen food?
<The frozen food may have been defrosted and then refrozen. This would change the texture and possible the taste.>
Will my angels be fine with just flakes?
< Depends on the brand of flake food. Some are better than others. Fish can survive on anything. But for breeding and to keep your fish looking the best then I use only the best foods out there.>
For you information, The male angel is about 3.5inches long and the female is a bit smaller at about 3 inches. Thanks for being such a great help all the time!
< Thank you for your kind words.-Chuck>

Re: Egg-bound FW Angelfish 7/16/05
Hi again, You said that  "Egg bound females do have problems". So, what might happen to my angel and what can I do to stop it?
<There are three things that can happen with an egg-bound female. The first is you can get her to spawn. Usually increasing the temp to 82 F and a big water change (50%) will usually do it. Second is they might be reabsorbed into her body. The third is they can get infected and rot. The latter usually happens with older fish.-Chuck>
Thank you for your help!

Breeding Angelfish
The two angelfish in my 32G tank have been spawning for almost a year. Ever since it start to breed, it's been very nasty toward any other fish, making all the other fish to hide almost all the time (especially the Clown Loaches). My question is, is there any kind of fish I can keep in the same tank of a breeding pair of angels without having any conflict, since I cannot afford to get another separate breeding tank for the angel( I don't have the time to raise the fry anyways), and also, I really want to have them in my main display.
< Welcome to the wonderful world of cichlids. Part of the attraction of cichlids is the way these fish protect their eggs and fry. Unfortunately as you have found out when space is limited these fish can make their tankmates lives a living hell. I would recommend that you trade in these breeding angels to a local fish store to someone who would appreciate them and take the time to raise the fry.-Chuck>