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FAQs on Controlling Cyano/Blue-Green Algae 12

Related FAQs: Control of Cyano/Blue-Green Algae 1, Cyano Control 2, Cyano Control 3, Cyano Control 4, Cyano Control 5, Cyano Control 6, Cyano Control 7, Cyano Control 8, Cyano Control 9, Cyano Control 10, Cyano Control 11, BGA Control 13, BGA Control 14, BGA Control 15, BGA Control 16, BGA Control 17, BGA Control 18, BGA Control 19, BGA Control 20, & BGA Identification, Algae ControlMarine Algicide Use, Nutrient Limitation, Marine Algae Eaters, Culturing Macro-Algae; Controlling: Red/Encrusting Algae, Green Algae, Brown/Diatom Algae

Related Articles: Blue-Green "Algae"/(Cyanobacteria), Algae Control, Marine Maintenance, Nutrient Control and Export, Marine Scavengers, Snails, Hermit Crabs, Mithrax/Emerald Green Crabs, Sea Urchins, Blennies, Algae Filters, Ctenochaetus/Bristle Mouth Tangs, Zebrasoma/Sailfin Tangs, Skimmers, Skimmer Selection, Marine Algae, Coralline Algae, Green Algae, Brown Algae,   Diatoms, Brown Algae

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Marine Aquarium Algae Control

by Robert (Bob) Fenner

Cyanobacteria? Reading?  -- 9/24/07 Hello WWM, <Geri in MA> I believe I have Cyanobacteria in my 55 gallon marine tank <I assure you, it is most everywhere> and I have tried everything to get rid of it. I vacuumed it off the substrate, did a partial replacement of substrate, cleaned the filters, sump, skimmer, glass and ornaments, and dipped the live rock in conditioned water using a toothbrush to scrape it off. <Uhh, what about addressing root causes?> Just when it appears to be completely gone, it starts creeping back. It appears on the substrate first as a coppery red dusting and then starts to cover everything in the tank and filters. I am at my wits end. Do you recommend using a bacteriostatic to stop it from multiplying? <I do not> I have fish, snails, crabs, shrimp and live rock. Can you recommend anything else to do to kill this stuff? <All sorts... competition, predation, nutrient deprivation...> What is causing it? <Mmm, life... and propitious circumstances that favor it over other life forms> I also have green slimy stuff that looks like cyano too but the hermit crabs eat at it every night and keep it in check. Thank you for any advice you can give me. Geri in Newton, MA <Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm and the linked files above, where you lead yourself... Bob Fenner>

Re: Yellow Watchman Goby... Now BGA control  9/13/07 Thanks a lot for the reassurance. It is always hard when you are a beginner aquarist and have low confidence. I have a had an Octopus bimaculoides with some damsels in the past. I have never lost a fish yet (keep fingers crossed) except the octo which seemed to live his full life with me. Your website is a real inspiration and I thank you for your support. Paul P.S. I have a wicked Cyanobacteria problem for months now, PH 8.1, nitrates less than 5 mg/l, Hardness 2.5meq/l, temp 75F. Berlin airlift skimmer producing a cup every 3 days. I keep a log and do monthly 5% water changes, <More frequent, higher percentage> my fish load is quite light I think in comparison to most tanks, four small fish in 75 gallons with 40 pounds of live rock and fluidized bed filter, <This may be a large part of the problem> return pump is a QuietOne 2200 with a 4 foot head (the return is quite vigorous) , I have two additional pumps in the tank to reduce dead spots, 3 20W compact fluorescent actinics from Coralife. I am really stumped, each fish gets five grains of food twice per day, I use Sera. I then make sure the shrimps and serpent get a few grains. The shrimps make sure NOTHING is left uneaten, along with the hermits. Any recommendations? I will do whatever you say! <Please read... http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cyanocontrolfaqs.htm and the linked files above. BobF>

The last straw... BGA and its control, not chem.       9/11/07  Hi Alex (or someone else on the crew)! <Dear Alex is on vacation, Sara here.> Thanks again, as always, for all your help in the past. To do a brief recap of our tank: A 120-gallon reef tank. I am sorry I don't know the specifics of the lighting or technical hardware stuff, but we have in addition to the regular stuff, an extra powerhead (moves 1100 gph) and a skimmer (which we can't use; see below). Ammonia 0, nitrates 10, nitrites 0, ph 8.32, temp 80-82 (no chiller), phosphates .05. About 150 pounds of live rock on a bed of about 80 pounds of live sand. Salinity 1.023. <The salinity of a reef tank should be 1.025sg. Nitrates should be close to 0.> As of May, this is what we had in the tank fishwise: Sailfin, Foxface, three clarkiis, flame angel, four teeny Chromis, bicolor Pseudochromis, engineer goby and two yellow tangs. One algae blenny, <little crowded> one sand sifting starfish, <...which will surely die after it assaults your sand bed.> many blue- and red-legged crabs, assorted snails. And four peppermint shrimp and one fire shrimp. Survivors: Sailfin, two clarkiis, the Chromis, bicolor, engineer goby and the fireshrimp. In May, other life: Kenya tree (just split in two!), two feather dusters, two coco worms, yellow polyps, tons of mushrooms, anthelia, Trachyphyllia (sp?) brain, large green plate, wall hammer, three gorgonians, Alveopora, candycane, Chile. I think that's about it. <Mixing leathers and LPS... ugh> Survivors: a few mushrooms, candycane (not doing well), one teeny feather duster. <yikes> I'll do my best to keep this brief, but this is the end for us if we can't figure out how to stop our problem. In March we had a massive outbreak of long-haired algae. With your advice and help, we removed all the rock, switched to R/O water and cleaned everything. By hand. More than five hours. That was March 17. By the end of April, it was all back. On April 29, we did it again. On May 19, the long-haired algae was still gone, but we had an outbreak of red slime. At that point we started treating with Red Slime remover, so had to turn the protein skimmer off (after learning the hard way that it will overflow). In June and July and August, we battled the slime. We hired our LFS to come and scrub rock and clean. Everything started dying. We dosed with Red Slime remover six weeks in a row (on the advice of our LFS). <I've never been a big fan of the use of broad spectrum antibiotics in a reef tank.> We did water changes. We ran a fan over the top of the tank (yes, it got hot ... no chiller....but we turned up the thermometers so the swing wasn't so brutal). I admit there were days the tank was 86. <That's not such a big deal. Reef aquariums are best kept at temp 80 to 83F.> The red slime took over everything (we have pictures if you want to see). And the long-haired algae returned. Everything died. Yesterday we spent another five hours pulling everything out of the tank. We scrubbed and cleaned and added some new sand. We rearranged the powerhead and bent the returns to make the flow more even. We purchased an additional powerhead thinking we'd put it in today. When we woke up this morning and looked in the tank, the red slime was back. We are sick. Please help. <Ay yi yi, where to begin? Am I to assume you set up this tank sometime in Feb. or march? You have some major filtration issue going on. You said your protein skimmer isn't working. Do you have any other form of filtration? It sounds to me like you never let the tank completely cycle (this takes at least a month). You have inadequate filtration. Then you overstocked the tank with fish and corals which you didn't adequately research before hand. These mostly died, making the problem that much worse. I'm not trying to give you a hard time here, but the fact is that reef aquarium keeping is the most challenging of all types of aquarium keeping. You have to be willing to read a lot and have a great deal of patience.> Michael and Dianne <Best, Sara M.>

Re: the last straw, part 2    9/11/07  We forgot to add: We have read (several times) Blue Green Algae/Cyanobacteria, Identification, Causes & Control. <<Lo dudo. RMF>> We feed the fish sort of randomly, perhaps once every six days or so. <Ugh, fish need to be fed every day.> We use either Mysis shrimp, a veggie cube, some pellets or an algae sheet in the clip. <Mysis shrimp and Nori sheets are good. I'd stay away from "veggie cubes" and pellets. Marine fish are best fed with fresh (or frozen) minced/chopped squid, shrimp, and other meaty seafoods. (Don't feed more than what they'll eat within a minute.)> We were feeding the coral liquid stuff, but stopped. It hasn't made a difference. <Would you ever order something off a menu described by the restaurant as "liquid stuff?" Never put anything in your tank unless you know what it is. Different corals feed differently. You need to research each and every coral you have in order to know how best to feed it.> Until yesterday, phosphates and nitrates were 0. We vacuum out the BGA all the time. We also use a turkey baster and blast it off the rock, but it reforms immediately. <You have grossly inadequate water flow for a 120g reef tank.> We do a major water change (30 gallons) once a month, and add a gallon of fresh R/O water every day. <And how do you maintain calcium and alkalinity?> Thanks. Michael and Dianne <Best, Sara M.>

Re: the last straw, part 3    9/11/07  Sara M: Thanks for your response(s). Let me answer some of your questions and ask others .... We have more than one powerhead ... in total, we are moving 2,450 gph in the tank including the filter. We are considering adding another 1100 gph powerhead. Should we? <Typically, you want to have as much water flow as is feasible.> (The baffles in the tank will not handle more than 1300 gph so our only other option to move more water is a closed-loop system.) <The 3 powerheads should be fine for the corals you have left now (make sure to arrange your rock so it's not all up against the walls of the tank).> We are not using the protein skimmer because we need to completely clear out the red slime medicine. Once the tank is free of it, we will turn the skimmer on again. <You should turn the skimmer back on. You don't have to have all the red slime remover out. Just think about this... if the medicine is killing the cyano, where does it go? This is why things like red slime remover don't actually solve the underlying problem. The cyano grew in your tank because of excess nutrients and dissolved organics. When you kill it, you just put all this stuff back in the water. Except now it's arguably even worse since it's no longer bound up in a living organism. The skimmer will help remove some of what the dead/dying cyano leaves behind.> We set up our tank in December and didn't start having problems until mid-March. Others on your site have said that feeding the fish irregularly is perfectly fine, and that feeding them everyday is too much. <Feeding them irregularly is ok, but feeding every 6 days is far too infrequent. The reason some aquarists say that feeding fish every day is "too much" is because most people feed way too much at once. It's far better to feed a small amount every day (or at least every other day). This is better for your fish and your tank.> The coral stuff is Coralite (I didn't get up and find the bottles when I wrote last night). <Do you mean Kent Marine Coral-Vite maybe? You don't need this stuff.> We will have to look into maintaining calcium and alkalinity. And we will research more ... we recently got several books on coral and marine fish. <Very good. But seriously, calcium and alkalinity are two of those things you should have been monitoring and maintaining since day 1.> How do we get rid of the red slime? <Turn your protein simmer back on and keep doing your regular water changes. When you do your water changes, suck out as much of it as you can. It may take some time for it to clear up completely. Don't add anything more to the tank for at least 3 to 4 weeks. It also wouldn't hurt to start running some activated carbon filtration (but you don't have to).> Should we remove all the dead coral from the tank? (We've left most of it in, since they are now just rocks.) <If all the tissue is gone, there's no need to remove it.> Thanks again, Michael and Dianne <De nada and good luck, Sara M.>

Re: the last straw, part 2- Cyano Issues -- 09/14/07 Sara M: Thanks again for your responses. <de nada> It is now four days later. We retested the water and all (nitrates, nitrites, ammonia, phosphates) are zero. Ph is 8,.3. Tank temp is its usual 78.5. Calcium is 460. <alkalinity?> We added a second power head and are now moving about 4500 gph through our 120-gallon tank. Why, oh why is the red slime algae not going away? <Patience my friend, you just made some serious changes to your tank. To some degree, it has to do a mini re-"cycle."> It's slowly covering everything up again! We have the two powerheads, our filter and four return nozzles moving water. We have them pointed everywhere we can think to point them. We've even given up on aesthetics and placed the powerheads right in the front of the tank. We've rearranged our rock so we don't have big blocks interfering with the flow. We use R/O water. <very good> Is our tank so infested that we need to get rid of the fish and coral and let the rock dry out? Drain the water and dump the sand and start cycling all over again? <No, no, just make sure your alkalinity (and everything else) stays right, do regular water changes of 20-30%, and suck up as much of the cyano as you can with each water change. If you keep up with everything, it will subside in time. And just in case you haven't read it already, please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cyanocontrolfaqs.htm> Arghh!! <deep breath :-)> Michael and Dianne <Best, Sara M.>

The last straw, part 3; cyano 10/3/07 Sara M (or Alex) or any of the crew: <Sara here today.> Quick (I hope) question: You may or may not remember we have had MAJOR cyano issues. We just can't get rid of it, and it's at the point where it's floating in foam on the top of the water. You can't even put your arm in the tank to feed the few remaining coral without coming out coated in red slime. <I do remember your story, yes.> So, here's what we'd like to do: We want to empty the tank of all living creatures. All fish and all coral will be returned to the LFS. That will leave us with (OK, it's alive) rock and sand. <Why return the fish? The cyano shouldn't be hurting them...> We'd like to know if there is some heavy-duty chemical stuff we can put in the tank that will kill the red slime algae (even if it takes weeks of dosing). Once it's dead, we'll run the tank empty until we can keep it clean and clear (with good number) for a few months. <Have you tried UltraLife red slime remover? Normally I don't recommend such chemical/antibacterial solutions, but I did use it once myself (long time ago when I was just starting out) and as far as I could tell it worked without any noticeable ill-effects. However, if this stuff is growing over corals and floating at the top of the water now, I'm wondering if might not be dinoflagellates. This stuff is even harder to get rid of than cyano (in my experience anyway). Is it a bit stringy? Have you tried keeping the lights off for a few days?> Then we'll slowly reintroduce coral and fish. Is there such a product? (Short of gasoline??) <See above. That stuff did work for me once. But it won't work against dinoflagellates.> Thanks.... Michael and Dianne <De nada, Sara M.>

Re: The last straw, part 3; cyano  10/3/07 Sara: Thank you for responding so quickly. We used UltraLife red slime remover once a week for seven weeks. It did nothing except (and I am not blaming the product) kill more than half of our fish and all but three of our coral. Unless it was the red stuff that was the culprit. <It's hard to say, but I doubt it was the UltraLife.><<Not RMF... could easily be due to side-effects here>> In any event, our plague is dark red (like dried blood). It covers everything and hangs in the water. If you put a turkey baster in the tank and puff water at it, most of it will leave what it's attached to and float in the water. On the sand it's like a membrane, but on the rock and pumps and glass it's like dark red hair algae. The fish don't seem to mind, but who wants a tank that looks like a slime pit? Is there a product that will kill it? <Other than the UltraLife, there's none that I know of or would recommend.> Our other choice is to return all (including the rock) to the LFS, dump the water and sand, scrub the bio balls and all other parts of the tank with something (bleach?), refill it, and let it cycle anew. <Do you have a protein skimmer? If you decide to start all over, you should change your set up. This algae/cyano or whatever it is should not be this hard to get rid of unless there's some underlying problem with your set-up.> Probably the biggest issue for us is that we use RO water. We have no RO in the house, so we drive to the LFS with two eight-gallon tanks on wheels and pick up water every week (it's free). <Hmm, I'd be a bit suspicious of anything that's free. Have you ever tested the TDS of this water?> Our water is from a well and it tests off the charts for phosphates (we didn't know this when we decided to try a tank). Thanks again for your help. We will research dinoflagellates. Thanks. Michael and Dianne <De nada, Sara M.>

Re: The last straw, part 3; cyano - actually dinoflagellates? <No> 10/3/07 Sara: Lest you think we're over-reacting, here are some photos. <Oh dear, as I suspected, it looks like you have dinoflagellates rather than cyano. I guessed this because of just how difficult dinoflagellates can be to get rid of (and because of their potential toxicity which can hurt/kill corals). And btw, I never thought you were over-reacting. Let me tell you a little "secret": we here have not become so knowledgeable because we've never had such problems. We've learned because we've all had these problems and lived through them. About a year ago, my tank started to leak. In one night I had to take EVERYTHING out of the tank and replace the aquarium. It was a nightmare. Then, after I'd replaced the tank and put everything back, I got a break-out of dinoflagellates that took me over 2 months to get rid of! So I can honestly tell you that I feel your pain. But you're not going to like what I'm going to tell you I had to do to cure my tank. I didn't get rid of any of my fish or corals. I did 20% water changes every week, using a powerhead to blow off all the dinoflagellates so that I could suck it all up with the water changes. I then kept the light off for 2 days after each water change (because dinos need light). At some point I actually brushed all the rocks with a toothbrush to get the last of the dinoflagellates off everything. I did loose at least one coral and others suffered quite a bit. But in the end, I saved more than I lost and everything is back to normal now. But it took A LOT of work, time and dedication. As I like to say, "love is the only miracle cure in this hobby." And it's true. If you want to be successful at reef-keeping, you're going to have to love it. Otherwise, you'll get exhausted long before you get the hang out it.> Dianne and Michael <Good luck, Sara M.>

Dinoflagellates Suggestions Hi Sara, <Hi, sorry for the late reply (I've been in NYC).> I have been following your correspondence on "The Last Straw...........Dinoflagellates." I recently had an outbreak of dino, and after doing some book and web research I came up with three suggestions: phosphate/silicate removal, fresh carbon, and raise alkalinity. I checked my alkalinity and found that it had dropped to 5 dKH. Over a few days, I was able to raise it to 11. I also changed my carbon cartridge, and used "Soluble Phosphate Out" (unfortunately, no longer available) which also claimed to remove silicates. I can't tell you which of these actually worked, but within a week all the Dino had been reduced to detritus. <Sounds good to me. Though, I think what I identified in that other series of emails as Dinoflagellates may have been some kind of Cyano. Without the aid of a microscope, I've always had a little trouble telling one oozy microbe from another. If Bob says its Cyano, he would know better than me. In any case, for those people who do actually have dinoflagellates (or Cyano for that matter), these are some good suggestions, so thank you. The only thing I'd add is that water changes are also important. That and if you're using RO/DI water, you shouldn't have silicates in the water.> Hope this helps, <I haven't had these problems for some time now, but I'm sure this will help other people still struggling.> Scott <Gracias amigo. Sara M.>

The last straw, part IV (Cyano issues) - 11/03/07 Hi Alex or Sara (or whomever), <Sara here tonight.> You may or may not remember us ... we have the 120-gallon reef tank that was completely overgrown with Cyano. <Indeed, I remember.> (See posts Sept. 11, 13 and Oct. 3). Anyway, two Saturdays ago we took all the fish back to our LFS, along with the coral, and any other livestock. Then we got to work. We drained the tank. Scrubbed the sides and back. Removed the bioballs and replaced them with live rock rubble. <fabulous> Took apart and cleaned all filters. Moved our powerheads and added a third (pointed to the surface). Cleaned the protein skimmer, took out all the rock and scrubbed it. <sounds good> Removed about half the sand. We then replaced the rock, put in fresh water (r/o, of course), <You mean "fresh" salt water, not fresh water as in no-salt, right? I hope...> then let the tank stay without fish (and without lights) for five days. We then turned the lights back on, waited another three days, and then got a few of our fish and a cleaning crew back. <How many fish did you put back?> And today (13 days after the cleaning) the tank is filled with the red stuff again. <Oy, I wish you would have written to us before you started putting things back. When you do a huge over-haul the way you did, you have to let the tank re-cycle before you put the fish back. I'm actually surprised your fish are surviving. You should have waited at least 3 to 4 weeks; put the cleaning crew back, then waited another few weeks before adding the fish back.> Any thoughts? <See above you should have let things sit awhile longer. But just in case there's something else that might be going on, please tell me EVERYTHING you are doing on a daily/weekly basis. What *exactly* are you feeding the tank and *exactly* how much? What are you dosing? Give me as many details as possible please. One idea might be to stop using all pre-processed aquarium foods which can be a heavy source of phosphates. Fresh seafood from your local grocery store (well rinsed!!) might make for better food for your fish and leave you with less phosphates to deal with.> A totally disgusted Michael and Dianne <I'm truly sorry you guys are having so much trouble. But don't lose heart just yet. You made some good changes to your set up. You're having Cyano trouble now because your tank isn't cycled yet. For right now, just keep doing regular water changes and keep siphoning out the Cyano for another few weeks. If it doesn't get any better, we'll have to start brainstorming about this again. If it makes you feel any better, we've all been through it at least once in our aquarium keeping "careers." And yes, I've seen worse... Best, Sara M.>

Re: The last straw, part IV.5 11/3/07 Sara: Thanks for writing back! According to our pal at the LFS, once the tank had brownish stuff <He/she told you to wait for brown stuff!? --that didn't strike you as a little, uh, unsophisticated?> on the sand, and all our numbers were good, the tank was cycled. <Either that or it hadn't even begun to cycle. :( > Our calcium was a hair low, so we've been adding PurpleUp (two capfuls a night) per his instructions. <This is not the best way to maintain your calcium and/or alkalinity. Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/calcalkmar.htm and/or here: http://www.asira.org/practicalchemistrybasics> We only moved back in our two clarkis, one algae blenny, one sand sifting goby, the engineer goby, one fire shrimp, a sand-sifting starfish, about 10 snails and 15 crabs. The only "decorative" fish are the clarkis. <Hmm... that's not a lot of livestock for a 120g tank.> We're waiting another week or so to bring back the Sailfin, two yellow tangs, the bicolor Pseudochromis and a teeny Foxface. <Don't bring all those back at once. Bring back one of those fish in 3 weeks. Then, bring just one more back every week after that.> And we're waiting another week or more after that before we bring any coral back. (Although, much to our surprise, the plate we thought was completely dead has come back to life and is doing fine.) <Awesome! Those corals are known to be able to make miraculous recoveries. :)> All the fish have had to eat so far is about one square inch (flat) of Mysis shrimp. That's it. <That's probably not too much food, but you might want to strain it first. Rinsing the food in a strainer is thought to reduce the phosphates you could be adding to your tank that are found in a lot of pre-packaged foods. I'd also highly recommend running some activated carbon (if you don't already).> We're not doing anything else to the tank except topping off with r/o water (that has been sitting) about one gallon per day. And yes, I meant fresh salt (is that an oxymoron?). One good part of all this is that our water is so clear you can read a newspaper through it. To our eyes (used to the muck of before) the tank is still very clean. But we can see the air bubbles trapped in the red stuff. Sigh. <At least you're making progress though. And hey, look at your plate coral! Obviously something is changing for the better. :-)> Thanks for ALL your help and support to date. Michael and Dianne
<My pleasure and good luck,
Sara M.>

Cyanobacteria... RMF

Banded Cat Shark - Some Questions... too small sys., BGA control, using WWM    8/30/07 Mr Fenner (and crew), <Etay> first i would like to say that i accidentally stumbled on you're site while searching for some background info on the banded cat shark and found it loaded with important and viral <Heee!> information. I since then read other FAQ's and marked this site as i feel i will return to it often !! <Okay!> ill start with some background info before the questions :) i have a 100 gallon reef tank, currently housing: lg. coral banded shrimp ( separated due to super friken aggressive dude and killing all my fish all the time!! ) <CBS can be this way> copperband butterfly (med) tomato clown (lg) blue devil damsel ( only one left because of the damn shrimp ) yellow damsel various cleaning inverts. filtration: 3 inch high live sand bed <Mmm, should be more or less... see WWM re> red sea Berlin turbo skimmer 12W UV unit 10Gal sump containing everything w/ some bioballs under skimmer return Magnum Canister ( broke a leak 2 weeks ago, need to replace with a red sea Oceanclear ) latest tests (yesterday): SPG: 1.023 pH: 8.2 NH3: 0.0 HO2: 0.0 NO3: < 0.2 Cu: < 0.5 mg/L <I hope so... should be zip, zero, nada> Alk: 3.5 mEq/L ( 175 ppm CaCO3 ) tank conditions are usually stable, i perform monthly 25% changes and rarely check water for anything more the spg and pH unless there are visible issues. I have had a banded cat shark long ago (~6years), when i was still in Israel, unfortunately at the time i was totally unaware of the sharks sensitivity to electrical currents and i guess that caused it to get really unwell and eventually die :( it exhibited symptoms of sporadic twitching and laying on its back on the bottom of the tank... Israeli electricity runs 220VAC and not 110VAC, which may have increased the problem even more... <May be...> After that i figured i should not try again, I have been diving since age 15 and have seen other sharks in nature, i feel these beautiful animals should not be captured for display by those who are incapable of caring for them, i certainly was not. <We are in agreement> That said, last week when visiting the fish store i saw he had a newly hatched banded cat shark and he mentioned the egg was there for 4 weeks now and no one got it.. i was hesitating for a while because i feel my tank is much more suitable than the store and the animal will die there eventually... Eventually i decided to get the shark <Not to go in the 100 detailed above I hope> and with it all that i could think i need; - I got the grounding probe which i so needed last time! (and good that i did, before installing i checked the water against ground - 35VAC!! ) <Mmm, where is this stray voltage coming from? I would systematically unplug all items... check their polarity, assure that they are all wired through a GFCI... before running the tank another day> - I got fresh squid and shrimp but have not yet made feeding attempt - the animal hatched 3 days ago, i figured ill give it till end of week to acclimate... - after reading your FAQ i will be ordering the supplement tablets you use. <Mazuri likely> I am aware of the fact this tank is way to <too> small for this shark, <So... what are you going to do?> i have little rock arranged in a center island form so at this size it can still circle it on the sand and have several caves to go under. Me and my wife are planning to buy a house this year and i am planning to install an in-wall 300-400gallon aquarium, which should be more than sufficient. if this does not happen and the shark gets too big to start getting abrasions by rock i will have to donate it to the NY aquarium or anywhere else it can be cared for... <... will likely be too late... all too common circular "logic"> so, as to my questions: 1. i have never medicated my tank at any circumstance, i feel if a fish gets ick, lack of stress and good environment is the best i can do, if it does not survive i feel bad but i do not want copper traces or any other thing that can hit my corals ( mushrooms only really ) to be in the tank. I have recently got some red slime growing in my tank and was wondering if the UltraLife red slime remover is a reef safe as claimed <No...> and more important shark safe and if i can safely use it to remove the red slime. <No... and what happened to your laissez-faire attitude re disease above? I would investigate causes and fix them...> the seller argued it is antibiotics mostly and should not harm any reef animals but i am not convinced. <... Please read both: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/maralgcidefaqs.htm and: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm and the linked files above... The chemical trtmt. is very likely to result in the loss of all livestock> 2. i have not been testing my tank as extensively as yesterday unless something shows signs of trouble, should i be keeping more close tabs at readings with this animal? <Oh yes> 3. how do you know if its a boy or girl? :) <Posted... the presence/absence of claspers...> 4. how after to feed? last time i was offering every day, the shark would eat but not everyday, but always by morning it was gone somewhere... wondering if this is not too much? <posted and posted and...> 5. any additions/changes to the filtration systems i should be thinking of? any special concerns when planning the filtration system for the new planned tank? mainly i wanted to know about the red slime remover... tanks for all the helpful info!! regards, Etay <Have just skipped down. These answers and much more useful/important related material is already posted on our site. Please don't abuse our trust... Learn to/use the indices, search tool... You have much to take in... and quickly. Bob Fenner>

BGA Question   8/24/07 Hello Crew. I'm sorry to bug you yet again, but I have the start of a BGA problem that I want to nip in the bud. I have read all the WWM information on BGA and believe I have taken/am taking appropriate steps to try to eliminate it/keep it in check (as discussed below). Nevertheless, it seems to be getting worse. I have had my tank up and running for about 6-7 months and until recently have never had a problem with BGA. I have a 110g display filtered by a wet-dry trickle, a Coral Life Super Skimmer, a 30g refugium (7 lbs live rock, 3-5" DSB, and Chaeto), and 70lbs live rock in the display. I also keep about 2 cups of Kent Reef Carbon in the sump at all times, swap it out for fresh every month. Lighting is by 6 Current T5 HO lights (4 54W 10,000K and 2 54W 460nm actinics), with a photoperiod of 12 hours. The fuge is on a reverse daylight cycle. I have three power heads in my tank circulating 820 gph (2 MaxiJet 1200s and 1 MaxiJet 900) in the top third of my tank, plus a drilled vertical return pipe (Little Giant 1325 gph), which I can tell from watching my hairy green shrooms and macro (in the lower third of my display) create pretty decent random flow. It appears, although I have not been swimming (hee hee), that circulation is good throughout the tank. <All reads as good...> I have 5 fish: a Sailfin Tang; a Brown Combtooth Blenny; a Gold Stripe Maroon; a Royal Gramma; and a Citron Goby. As for inverts, I have 2 cleaner shrimp, a Sally Lightfoot, 24 or so hermits, a dozen snails, 6 hairy green mushrooms, 5 red mushrooms, 2 orange Ricordea, a BTA, two small unidentified tree corals of some sort, and a Lemnalia. Obviously, I also have various LR hitchhikers, including two crabs and (based on my review of "Odd Invert With Eight Tree Branch Shaped Tentacles! Holothuroid 8/21/07", a small cucumber). <Indication of all going well here...> I do 10% water changes with Instant Ocean that I mix a week before in a 32g covered Rubbermaid, circulated by a power head. Mix and top-off water is RO/DI, and my TDS meter shows 0 ppm coming out. I have not recently tested my phosphates, but I did before I started using RO/DI a few months ago and it was 0 or very close to 0. Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are all 0. Calcium is 400, alk is 4 meq/L, and pH is 8.2. The only things I dose are Kent CB Calcium/Buffer every night (I don't add the buffer if the alk seems okay), and Iodine once per week with water changes. In the last few weeks, BGA has started to overtake my substrate. Most of my LR is pacific, but I do have 3 pieces of Florida aquacultured rock, and the BGA has started to cover one of those pieces <I wonder why there?> and the Caulerpa that is growing on that piece. All LR has been in the tank for several months. I try to siphon the BGA off the substrate when I do my water changes, but it's not all that effective and, in fact, I think it may actually help the BGA proliferate. <Yikes> I feed 2 times per day--a pinch of Formula One flake (I've tried Formula One pellets, but the fish won't touch them) or Spirulina flake followed a few hours later by half a cube of frozen Mysid shrimp or squid, which I thaw and drain before introducing into my tank. For the tree corals, I target feed Cyclop-eeze every few days. For the BTA, I target feed frozen Mysid, fresh cut-up oyster, or cut-up squid about once per week. I just added the Lemnalia to my tank and have added some DTs once since introduction (by the way, is there a better food for this coral/should I rely instead on my fuge, which is teaming with pods?). <Mmm, if this Nephtheid appears "fine" otherwise, I would not add more food here> Although it doesn't seem like I overfeed, I know that almost everyone does so I'm trying to be careful. I have installed a Tunze Osmolator to keep my skimmer (which is in my sump) at optimal performance, and I get a decent (although not a copious) amount of dark green skimmate each day (probably 1/2 cup or so, sometimes less and sometimes more). <Okay> I soak my frozen food (once thawed) in Selcon. Is it possible that the use of Selcon every day is polluting my water and causing the BGA? <I would not use daily... once a week likely will suffice> If so, how often should I soak the frozen if not every day? The only other thing I can think of is that the BGA started to proliferate around the time I switched to the Kent CB (was previously using Purple Up). <I am not a fan of this product... nor are a few other WWM Crew> I find it hard to believe, especially with frequent testing, that this product could be at fault. <Might be a contributor> Can you think of anything else? <Mmm, this system is relatively new at 6,7 months old... Likely "just" succession at play here... I would cut back on feeding, turn the lights on your refugium on for a few more hours per day (overlapping the main/system light period), and be (or at least try to be) patient here> I thank you in advance for your help. Andy <Thank you for sharing, writing so well/thoroughly. Bob Fenner>

Thick Layered Maroon Algae; Cyano  8/20/07 Heeellllllpppp..... I have a 60 gal reef tank. I have this dreadful maroon algae in my tank, it lays in sheets like a blanket and it's growing everywhere. We recently increased the wattage on our tank from 3 watts per gallon to approx 5-6 watts per gallon, this is the only changes we've made. Can you tell me what it is and how to get rid of it or at least get it under control? Thanks so much Brenda Pace <Looks to by Cyanobacteria, not an algae, but combated in much the same way. Usually driven by phosphates and/or high nitrates. Control is done through manual removal and limiting nutrients. See here for more http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm .> <Chris>

Mysterious Coral Bleaching, Not Such A Mystery (Antibiotics Administered To The Display System) -- 08/08/07 Dear WWM Crew, <<Hello Bill>> Please lend me your thoughts. <<Sure thing>> Recently (within the past week) I noticed two Montipora corals in my tank that have been acclimated and growing well begin to bleach. Within the past two days a few small Pocillopora and Acropora began to bleach as well and polyps hid. <<Mmm, an environmental issue of some sort>> I've checked the tank parameters - everything seems rather on par -- 75 gallon tank -Alkalinity - 4.2 (may be a bit high?) <<Considering you Calcium is over 400...yes, a bit>> -Calcium - 420 -Nitrate - 0 -Temp - 74 - 76 night and day <<Probably fine but a little on the cool side in my opinion>> -SG- 1.024 <<Better than many I've seen but bumping to NSW levels (1.025/1.026) is best>> -Lighting - 2 * 250 10K, 4 * 96 actinic. All the corals have loved the light to this point. <<Unless the bulbs are 'very' old this is likely not the issue>> I think my problem may be one of two things, or a combo of both. I used a cycle of "Chemi Clean" Cyanobacteria remover which threw my protein skimmer way out of cycle. <<Ugh! It has done much more harm than that I fear...you have likely wiped out much of your biological filtration. You didn't list an Ammonia reading but you need to check this right away...as well as preparing/performing large water changes and adding chemical filtration (Carbon/Poly-Filter/Chemi-Pure) to try to keep the buildup of nitrogenous compounds under control until bacteria has a chance to repopulate>> It is creating massive amounts of micro-bubbles so I haven't been able to run it properly. <<Possibly overcome by the increased organics load...perhaps you can adjust it 'down' a bit>> I am doing a third partial water change today (in the last week) to try to remove excess chemicals so I can get my skimmer running normally (not overflowing the collection cup constantly). <<The water changes probably explain why your Nitrate reading was zero. Do try to get the skimmer back in service...perhaps throttling it back a bit to slow down the overfilling of the skimmer cup>> There is also one leather coral in the tank, could the lack of chemical filtration for the past two weeks, or that in conjunction with the leather emitting toxins be killing these previously healthy corals? <<Is definitely a contributor...at the very least is exacerbating the situation. Get some chemical filtration going!>> Any advice? <<Yes...don't administer antibiotics to your display system...and start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm>> Thanks! Bill <<Regards, EricR>>

Re: Mysterious Coral Bleaching, Not Such A Mystery (Antibiotics Administered To The Display System) - 08/10/07 Eric, <<Bill>> Thank you for the thoughts and advice. <<You're quite welcome>> I will NEVER use any Cyano "solution" again. <<Are surely trouble...>> The day before I received your email I placed carbon and Chemi-pure in my sump. <<Excellent! Though do consider a purposeful reactor/canister filter for such to achieve maximum effect>> Yesterday the skimmer began working again (it wasn't working at the lowest flow setting previously) for the first time after another partial water change and two days of the carbon/Chemi-pure in the sump. <<Mmm...a good sign>> Question - now that the skimmer is running how long should I leave the carbon/Chemi-pure in the sump for additional filtration as I do not want to remove trace elements for too long? <<I prefer to 'always' have some chemical filtrant in my system (I employ two reactors with cut-up Poly-Filter on my 375). I feel the benefits far outweigh any small loss of trace elements...and the latter is of very small/no concern really with regular water changes. In fact, there have been writings on the possible buildup of trace elements to toxic levels in our 'enclosed' systems as many of these elements can enter our tanks through different avenues, not the least of which is the foods we feed>> Thanks Again, Bill <<Always happy to help. Eric Russell>>

Winning the Cyano War   8/8/07 Hello WW Crew, and 'thanks' for your input on this one. <Welcome> I am currently waging war on Cyanobacteria, of which I have suffered some severe plagues in the past but I believe that I am now winning this war. Over the past week, I have witnessed an occurrence which I have not seen before to such a degree. I'll get to it in a minute, but first, some specifics: The tank is a 46 gal. bow; Emperor 400 running for circulation/chemical media/filter pads; CPR Bak-Pak; ~ 55 lbs. of live rock; ~ 2' sugar sand bed; <Would be better thinner or deeper...> powerheads = water turnover of about 20x/hr. The system has been running for 7 years. The livestock includes a smaller Ones-spot Rabbitfish (3.5' -- to be moved eventually), a Tomato Clown, an Azure Damsel, an Emerald Crab, 3 Pacific Nassarius snails, and 3 giant Tongan snails (these are a delight, by the way, rising out of the sand rapidly when they detect food has been added to the tank). In a diligent effort to reduce the cyano I have done the following: changing activated carbon every two weeks; added Chemi-Pure Elite two weeks ago and rinse it weekly; added 1 pouch of Algone 3 days ago to further help reduce nitrates from 60 ppm; cleaning skimmer and filter monthly; blow off the LR daily with a baster or powerhead; reduced feeding (especially after removing a killer Yellow Dottyback this past weekend); I vacuum LR while performing a 10% water change weekly with RO/DI water, utilizing Red Sea's Coral Pro salt. I offer no additives other than 1 capful of Purple Up daily. SG = 1.025 to 1.026 consistently; ammonia = 0; Nitrite = 0; Nitrates high at 40-50 ppm; <... too high> Phosphates not detectable; (have not checked for Silicates); Calcium ~ 400; temp is 79-80° F. during the daytime. I feed moderately the following: 6 days a week various frozen foods including Mysis, algae mixtures, crab, shrimp, plankton, squid, Cyclop-Eeze, etc. I drain the juice from these frozen food preparations soaked in Selcon & garlic; once or twice a day a small pinch of Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef, Formula 1, or Formula 2 flakes that can be consumed in less than 1 minute; occasional treats like Seachem's Nutri-Diet small whole shrimp or finely chopped shrimp/seafoods from store. I am afraid to say this'¦..I have never had any disease or signs of disease in this tank. The only source of elevated nitrates that I can determine is the possible die-off of the blue-green algae (which in turn feeds that which is still living/growing). <Ah, yes> The big change that I have noticed over the past week is that during the night all the LR is covered with a fine to course white film'¦..lots of it! The coralline doesn't even shine through. Now, some portion of this is the fine sugar sand substrate which the Tomato Clown enjoys fanning into the water column, for some reason (what's that all about?); however, the largest portion of this material seems to be a mix of detritus and other organic/inorganic matter. What can this possibly be that covers the décor every night? <Detritus from biological and simple chemical activity in the rock...> Is it die-off from the Cyanobacteria or do you have any clues here to help determine what else might be occurring? The cyano is not near as prevalent as before and the coralline is spreading rapidly. If I could solve this one mystery I might truly say that I am winning this war. Thanks again to my friends at WWM. David A. Bell <I cannot encourage you enough to add a refugium... with a DSB here. Bob Fenner>

Red slime algae... reading  8/7/07 Hello, I have a 55 gal salt water aquarium. I am having a terrible time with red slime algae growing on my sand. My aquarium is setup with: 40 lbs live rock 40 lbs live sand 2 65 watt actinic compact fluorescents <Please see WWM re... I would switch at least one of these out for more white> 2 65 watt daylight Bak pak protein skimmer canister filter w/ 2 ChemiPure bags & 1 bag phosphex <Not a big fan of canisters for marine systems as primary...> 1 tang <Not enough room> 1 cardinal 1porcipine puffer <Ditto, definitely> 4 damsels 1maroon clown <Too aggressive for this setting...> 1BTA <Mmmm, needs more light... this tank is a standard... 22 inches deep...?> 3 mushrooms 3 feather dusters 8 snails I have had the red algae off and on now for about three months. I have used ChemiPure red slime remover <I wouldn't... please see WWM...> which works for about three days to a week. Then it returns stronger than ever. <... the root causes/circumstances that allow this BGA have not changed...> The slime seems to only be growing on my sand and no place else. I do a 20 % water change after each treatment w/ Ro water. I do not add any additives to my water such as phytoplankton or ZooPlex. All levels are at 0. I have cut my lights back to 8hrs a day but I do not know if this is to low for my BTA. <Yes... see WWM... bad for the Anemone and won't help with the algae> Also my BTA has turned brownish looking and does not have bubble tips anymore but looks healthy. It has looked like this since about a month after I purchased it. I have had it now for about 5 months. any suggestions on how to make it look better or become healthier. If you could please help w/ the slime algae problem I would greatly appreciate it. I have talked to many people and read over more material than I can intake nothing swims to work. Please Help. Brad <.... please learn to/use the search tool and indices on WWM... Your answers are all there and so much more... Perhaps start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cyanocontrolfaqs.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

BGA HELP!   7/25/07 Good evening my fellow reefers. I hope all is well. One question regarding my BGA problem. I have read all the archives and other info pertaining to high nitrates and high phosphates being the main problem with the slimy fast growing bright green algae bloom I have. My tank has been "alive" for almost a month now. My diatom is slowly going away but giving into the BGA. 46 gallon bow, 25 pounds live rock, 20lbs live sand, 7 pounds GARF GRUNGE <Mmm, am compelled to state that I would not waste my money on this pounded dead rock...> on the way in attempts to stabilize the tank. <Won't> As I found out that a 46 gallon is just to <too> small for any kind of tang, I will be adding another 15 lbs of live rock here pretty soon and just making it a full reef tank. <Good> I originally wanted some room for the tang to swim but have been turned against it. All readings are great. Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate- under5(if that) , phosphate-a big fat 0 . <Can be rapidly absorbed by the BGA, other metabolic processes... Like "terrorists", not a static dynamic> Im using Chemi-pure elite and have been all along. <Ahh, likely this has been ad-sorbing the HPO4...> Finally the question- is my BGA just a product of the tank maturing. <Likely a principal factor, yes> I have heard that every reefer will encounter some form of this... mainly being the red kind however. <Mmm, comes, occurs in many colors...> I have done one 5 gallon water change and one 7 gallon. The 7 gallon was just done last weekend. I have a simple set up mainly using the live rock and a Aqua C Remora Pro for the filtration. I have a power filter for the Chemi-pure and the occasional polyfilter. In a couple of months I will upgrade to the Hang On Tank Refugium. But that's it, so if you could give me any insights as to what, why I am getting this bloom. Thanks. <Can't discern anything striking from your presentation here, but the changes you are initiating... This too shall likely go. Bob Fenner>

Re: Pretty algae doesn't grow, BGA cont.    7/25/07 Thanks, Bob, for your reply. <Welcome Tom> I've been reading and thinking. <Ah, good> One thing I've done is replace my three AquaClear 30 powerheads with four new Maxi-Jet 900s. Those, plus a Penguin 170 (without Bio-Wheel), and Aqua-C Remora now provide a lot of circulation. <Allright> My 96w 50/50 bulb is less than 5 months old, so it still should be OK. I use an Eheim automatic feeder, and when I observe the feedings (two per day), they sure look conservative to me. My source water is RO/DI. Lastly, I have three other tanks (38 gal, 20 gal, 15 gal), and none of them has this Cyanobacteria problem. <Always interesting eh?> But I wonder if there is one other clue here. In my problem tank, I have added crushed coral on two occasions. I don't think I have more than an inch on the bottom, so it is pretty easy to siphon clean. However, it seems like my skimmer stops producing for a few weeks after adding the crushed coral. It also seems like I have had to supplement inordinately to keep my alkalinity and calcium up. <Mmm, a likely candidate...> As to my other problem-free tanks, they are all different in a variety of ways, but none has crushed coral. Two are bare bottomed, and the other has an inch of fine aragonite sand. <Ahh!> Is there something about crushed coral that could be the source of my problem. <Yes...> Just a hunch. I wanted to see if it rings a bell for you. Tom <I do encourage you to siphon out/remove the current crushed coral, and replace it with sand here. Bob Fenner>

Re: Pretty algae doesn't grow, Cyano cont. -- 07/25/07 Thanks again, Bob. <Welcome> I will siphon out the crushed coral, and probably replace it with sand after the Cyanobacteria is gone from the rocks. <Good plan> Your site has a number of exchanges that implicate crushed coral as a problem. Usually it is seen as a detritus trap. In at least one case, it sounded like the crushed coral was a source of phosphates, which I take to mean something different from simply trapping detritus. <Yes, this is so> I'm curious why an inch of crushed coral might trap detritus better than an inch of fine sand. <A matter of size of material that can fit twixt mostly... Differing microbes... that live in hypoxic to anoxic worlds> Or why crushed coral could be a source of phosphate, while aragonite sand is not. <Differing solubilities, physical structures by and large...> Any thoughts? <All sorts> Tom <BobF> Green Slime Algae Question !!  7/22/07 Thank goodness you guys are around. Without you, who knows where us novice reefers would be. I've gone through the whole algae archive, alot <No such word> to read as you know, and am still slightly confused on one issue. Quick tank footprint here...46 bow, 25 lbs live rock, 3 green reef chromis, hermits, snails, no coral yet... <Research needs, compatibility ahead of purchase...> tank has been "alive and bio cycled for 4 weeks now". Meaning I used completely cured live rock from my LFS. They had it in their tanks for 4 weeks guaranteed, and never had the ammonia nor nitrite show up any of my test. I wanted to wait as long as possible before I added my first coral. This will only be a Zoanthid and mushroom tank with a few mobile inverts and fish. My diatom bloom as pretty much disappeared and had noticed this morning that I was getting the first hint of coralline algae already. As this is pretty early in the stages for this, I was pretty darn excited. As I got home the same day...a prolific green slime algae problem sprung. Now all I can find info on is this "blue-green slime algae which would suggest to many nutrients, time for a water change. I hate this term blue-green algae as mine is bright, bright, very fluorescent green( glow in the dark green ) algae. Looks very slimy. Is this the infamous blue-green. <Likely...> Although I have only done one 10% water change, tomorrow happens to be my next on the schedule, does this mean that's all my tank needs. <Mmm, only one approach... what do your water quality tests show?> Is something else out of whack. My Remora Pro is skimming wonderfully, I am using a week old (brand new) Chemi-pure Elite which is supposed to remove phosphate. <A good product. Of use here> Using DI water to top off and used this to set up tank. I have heard somewhere that there is a green coralline, but this stuff I have is no where near incrusting, very slimy. <Indicative of BGA> Can you help? Because I never saw the ammonia and nitrite spike, should I already have done more water changes for a 4 week old tank. Haven't purchased a nitrate test yet. I know, know, its next on my list. But only a four week old tank. could that be the problem already? Again, I wanted more room for fish to swim and only have 25lbs of live rock for a 46 bow. Again, your help is much appreciated. Thanks. <... Where are the spaces between your sentences? Please review your English before sending... And do review here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/bluegralgae.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Green Slime Algae Question !! -- 07/22/07 Geez Bob, a little hard on me don't you think. At least I spelled check which is more that I can say for most of the emails you guys receive. <Heeeeee!> It could have used a few more corrections I grant you that. I will try harder in the future to send a more correct email. Anyway, one more question I have if you could be so kind to answer it for me. You guys are very helpful. Is it detrimental to scrub the BGA off the live rock. <Can be... better to "scrub n' vac"> Will that hurt the "good" bacteria I so desperately need on them. Or is this the correct way to go? <Mmm, not always... in your case... apparent "light" situation, adding macroalgae might "do it"... definitely adding a refugium with such, a DSB... would> More frequent water changes are needed as I have 1/2 pound live rock per gallon. I plan on adding 10 lbs very soon to get closer to the suggested pounds per gallon. Thank you for your time and help. <Keep reading. RMF>

Pretty algae doesn't grow... Non-anomalous algae/BGA mix, desire to control, reading referral   7/22/07 Hi Crew, <Tom> I have a 30 gallon marine tank with an odd problem. Coralline algae barely survives, and only where there is no direct light. <Mmm, actually, not unusual...> The inside glass surfaces remain mysteriously clean between weekly water changes. Various other kinds of algae do poorly. The main algae-like stuff that grows is a sort of slimily fuzzy yellowish-greenish-gray stuff. <Mmm, yes... a BGA...> Within a week of replacing my Penguin filter pad, it usually has become so clogged with this stuff that water flows around it. <Not good... indicative of... excess nutrient, insufficient competition...> I enclose two photos. The one with the Firefish shows a nicely Corallined shell in the foreground and the other rocks with the ugly stuff behind it. The shell was placed in the tank a couple weeks ago (in the hopes of re-seeding some Coralline); it came from a mostly neglected one-time quarantine tank where it has been for a few years, I think. The second photo is a close-up of part of the rock showing the typical ugly algae in this tank. <Yeah> I'm wondering what this ugly stuff is. <Mainly a mix of Cyanobacteria> I'm also wondering whether this stuff is able to put out chemicals that inhibit growth of other algae. <Very astute! Yes> And I'm wondering how to get rid of this stuff. <"Many roads...> Sometimes I think I should I just get rid of all the rocks and substrate in this tank and replace it with new material? <Nah> Do you think that would work? <Nope> Do you think it necessary? <Not at all> Any other suggestions? <Lots. Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/maintenance/index.htm Scroll down to the bright green line/tray... re Algae... Read on! Bob Fenner> Thanks,

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