Cold water animals, sel.  12/26/07
Bob-
Hey I've been asked to write an article on cold water tanks and their inhabitants (I'm thinking Pacific Northwest). I have no problem writing the article, and I even plan to set up a tank like this. Do you have any leads on where I can go to order anemones, shrimp, Seastars, and other items well suited (coming from) the Washington/Oregon area? Thanks much, Adam
<I would try one of the "Biological Supply" houses... e.g. Carolina... B>

Chesapeake Bay Tank
Hello Reef Gurus,
Greetings from Tidewater ,VA !
I already have a 70 gallon tropical reef tank, but last week I was given a 55 gallon tank & stand, which I wanted to set up as another reef, but my wife reminded that we have 2 children in diapers & reef tanks ain't cheap! (she always foils my plans- aarrgh!!). So in lieu of a reef tank, I am setting it up as a local Chesapeake Bay tank, complete with live rock & sand from the bay. Nothing like free!
<I do not know if this will be much cheaper once you factor in the expensive of a chiller and electricity maintaining those cold water temperatures.>
So here are my questions- The tank is being run by an Emperor 400 with bio-wheels, lighting is supplied by a 110 watt compact fluorescent, and 2 free hanging powerheads for circulation- is this enough
filtration/lighting?
<Seems adequate.>
Right now the tank has 4 pieces of "live rock", mostly covered in green & red macro algae with some small anemones, tube worms, and barnacles. Other than small hermits and snails, the rest of the livestock will be locally caught fish- from the minnow seine of yours truly! You would be shocked to see the fish we are catching off the beach, juvenile puffers, pipefish, seahorses, lookdowns, spadefish, filefish, various jacks , and sometimes "lost pelagics"- i.e. butterfly fish & other cool stuff that swims into the bay during the summer.
<Yes, I have heard many stories of Caribbean fish wandering to far North during the summer.>
I am wondering if I could/should use LSB using local live sand,
<Sure, but stay thin, less than 1" deep as an experiment.>
do I need a skimmer for the plant rock,
<It would be nice.>
and is this enough light for the rock as well?
<Seems ok, but your growth or lack there of will them you shortly.>
Right now the bulbs are 10k. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thanking you in advance, Joshua Scialdone
<Please see here for some additional information, http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cold.htm -Steven Pro>

Sub-tropical marine species
Hi Bob,
<Anthony Calfo in his stead, my friend>
Hope all is well with you.
<and the same to you in kind>
Do you know of any commercially available sub tropical species that would do well in a 44g seahorse coral kept at 71.6 degrees?
<if seeking species of fishes: my advice would be to avoid most or all. Seahorses are so patently gentle and require so much food that most other fishes will be a significant burden and direct competition for food. They really fare best in species tanks only>
Are there any soft corals that will do well at this temperature?
<there certainly are a both soft and hard coral species that live very fine in this range, however all such invertebrates are protected in US waters and none others are imported that I know of. I recently tried to secure temperate invertebrates from CANADA and discovered that the process was somewhat complicated and the sources were too distant for safe transit>
The Baensch Marine Atlas has 21 degrees celcus(71.6 F) listed as the low end of the temp range for quite a few species. I was wondering how these fish and corals would do at the low end of their recommended range, 
<not recommended because aquarists don't have otherwise ideal parameters like the ocean to support such animals living "on the edge". It really is asking a bit too much IMO>
as I usually keep my fish in the mid range of their temp requirements?
<agreed...very wise>
Thanks as always, Leslie
<with kind regards, Anthony>

Re: Sub tropical marine species
Hi Anthony,
<salute>
Thank you for the prompt response and info :). I am a bit bummed that my temperate tank won't be as pretty as my tropical tanks, but then again the magnificent abdominalis should make up for that what my tank will lack in the way of temperate inverts.
<Ahhh.. the temperates have their own unique beauty>
I understand your concern about keeping seahorses. It certainly is valid and apropos in light of what keeping seahorses meant in the not so distant past. However, I feel compelled to share with you that with the recent advent of commercially available aquacultured seahorses this has dramatically altered what keeping these truly incredible creatures means for all of us who have fallen so deeply in love with them. No disrespect intended here. 
<understood and agreed>
Your willingness to share your knowledge, expertise and experience is always greatly appreciated. I always look so forward to the warm, patient, gentle, caring, and humor laced way with which you and Bob respond to so many inquiries. I would like to return the gesture and share with you some of my experience keeping these incredible creatures if that would be acceptable. 
<very welcome with thanks!>
Just a friendly exchange of information. If you have heard this before I apologize and hope you do not misunderstand and take offense as none is intended. 
<none will be taken... a re-enforcement of knowledge at least>
If you have not had an opportunity to keep any of these, ever so amazing captive bred creatures, you would be very pleasantly surprised :)!! We have been blessed and are very fortunate to be able to keep these magical creatures thanks to Ocean Rider, South Australian Seahorse Marine Service and Ocean Oddities.
<fine organizations... unfortunately, most queries from aquarists are from individuals that are considering already imported to already purchased wild harvested specimens. Very few people do their homework first and ask us "where to buy" seahorses. In such cases we have been eager to recommend Ocean Rider and Seahorse.org>
I have been keeping captive bred seahorses for almost 4 years now. They do not present the typical problems of their WC cousins. They do very well when kept with appropriately chosen gentle tankmates and can actually be quite aggressive eaters. They are healthy, hearty and willingly accept and thrive on frozen foods.
<and properly handled wild caught ones will do the same.. unfortunately, most are mishandled or starved on import. A few years or even decades has not changes the inherent physiology of the animal. We are simply blessed with properly handled and well conditioned tank-raised specimens>
They are quite amazing. Believe it or not most are more aggressive eaters than you would ever expect. Mine race from all areas of the tank when those first few shrimp start to scatter about in the gentle current. They eat frozen foods one to 2 times a day depending on their size and age. The diet recommended by the breeders......Ocean Rider, South Australian Seahorse Marine Services and Ocean Oddities ....consists mainly of frozen Mysis as well as enriched frozen bs, with occasional live treats.
The availability of commercially CB seahorses has made keeping these magical creatures in our homes a reality for so many more than the previously recommended advanced marine aquarists only. In fact my very first marine aquarium was set up for CB Ocean Rider seahorses. I did very well, as did the ponies. I found they were not much more difficult that many of the freshwater fish I had previously kept. I just recently lost my first pair of Ocean Riders to a tank crash. I had them 4 years or so. They were in excellent health prior to the crash.
<this is very fine for aquarists with species tanks for seahorses, but I may never recommend even CB specimens for the mixed community fish tanks that most aquarists would like to put them in>
Have you had the opportunity to visit www.seahorse.org. 
<yes... a very fine site to be recommended>
I am proud and honored to be one of 13 directors. We have over 800 members and a very active board. Jan 1, 2003 will be our 2 year anniversary. Our members are keeping seahorses very successfully in modified species tanks with the appropriate carefully chosen tankmates. They are thriving.....growing, colorful, active, courting, breeding and reproducing viable fry. We usually recommend allowing the horses to settle into the tank, get comfortable and establish an eating routine prior to adding any
tankmates. Although they usually eat within hours of being acclimated if food is offered.
<excellent>
The tankmates we suggest are gentle fish of course, including species from the following groups.....gobies, Jawfish, dragonets, non-algae eating blennies, Firefish, assessors, Cardinalfish, and the lined, fairy or flasher wrasses. 
<agreed... and not recommended with aggressive common community fishes like damsels, clowns, tangs and angels>
I have found my captive bred seahorses seem to show interest in
and enjoy the tankmates. In addition to the tankmates listed above, Ocean Rider actually recommends and has clients keeping them successfully with Percula Clowns, some Butterflies, Tangs and Wrasses, recommending avoidance of Damsels, Triggers, Tomato Clowns, Anemones, and any aggressive fish.
<without limitations I would disagree with some of the above>
Some of our members have kept the horses successfully with Fridmani Pseudochromis and I have kept them with a pair of Black Cap Basslets without any problems. 
<they are actually peaceful fishes... no surprise, and what beauties they are!>
As with any tankmate I always recommend adding all tankmates with caution keeping a very watchful eye, with the understanding that the fish will be removed at the first sign of any misbehavior. 
<very wise>
As I have found even the most peaceful fish occasionally seem to have a "roguish" bad apple requiring strict disciplinary action.......removal and relocation.
<agreed>
For the occasional slow eaters we get around the food competition issue by feeding the tank first and/or target feeding the slow pokes with a turkey baster. I have found this works very well.
I hope what I shared was helpful and not in anyway repetitious for you or offensive
<very helpful... thanks again for sharing>
Thanks for listening I know how incredibly busy you must be.
<a labor of love :) >
With Kind Regards, Leslie
<best regards, Anthony>

Mussels
Hi Bob,
I was wondering if adding New Jersey sea animals to my aquarium is a good idea. (Your thinking probably not???) 
<Depends... on whether they're physiologically, physically, behaviorally compatible... to what you can offer>
My aquarium is a 30 gallon fish and hardy invert tank set up for a few months. Its got a Prism skimmer and a Marineland Emperor filter, and 20 lbs of live rock and 3 lbs of live sand. It contains 4 blue leg hermit crabs, a damselfish, and 2 porcelain crabs. I was thinking of adding mussels, crabs of different sorts, and maybe a few other bivalves. I see many butterfly clams (Donax variabilis) on the shore especially at low tide. Is it wise to include them into my tank, or should I just find other things to put in it? Thanks much for putting up with me, Jen.
<Well, this is really a small volume of water... what will you do when it's the equivalent time of winter there? Return the native animals? Get a chilling mechanism and remove the tropical animals? I encourage you to study what the shore there has to offer (much, have been to NJ numerous times), and perhaps put up a specialty tank that mimics the conditions (thermal, current, lighting...) of some part of the offshore environment and attempt to keep a few types of organisms you have a desire to study further. Bob Fenner>

Deep Water
Bob:
Just watched an amazing show on Discover Channel (Blue Planet) about deep sea life.
<Yes... a factoid re the depth of water on this planet. If all land were smoothed, it would be some ten thousand feet deep (shades of Waterworld!). And though light, dissolved gas is limited there, much diversity and abundance of life to be found in other than the thin skin which is the pelagic zone>
  There are truly amazing creatures down there - I especially like the luminescent variety like the anglers (use light for bait) and the shrimp the can set luminescent "depth charges" to confuse predators.
Anyway, my question is: have you ever encountered a man-made environment, like a tank that displays these creatures?  (Kind of like the dark rooms at zoos for nocturnes)
<Mmm, yes. There have been public aquarium and research set-ups that 1) lack light, 2) are kept very cold... to house abyssal life... types that could be hauled up as such>
I would think that would really be something to see -
I'm sure having a home display of these would be much too difficult.  Could these creatures survive at low pressure, or would their tank have to be pressurized or something?
<Some, like Giant Isopods, are routinely kept, fishes thus far don't "make it".>
Boy, you think Angels are expensive; I would hate to see prices on THESE deep-sea dwellers!
<We will see this... some day soon in my estimation>
Regards
<Thank you for writing. Bob Fenner>

Dungeness crabs in a home aquarium?
I live in Tacoma Washington and do a lot of fishing and crabbing. I was wondering if you had any ideas or pointers on keeping Dungeness crabs in a home aquarium for later consumption. I haven't been able to find anything on the internet on care and requirements for Dungeness.
<Dungeness crabs are very tolerant of a wide range of salinities, as you know, they are often found in estuarine areas, I would recommend full salinity (33-35 ppt). Also, unless you are pumping in natural seawater for the system, I would foresee a chiller as being necessary. Being carnivorous, they could be pretty easily fed a ration of shellfish/shrimp/crabs and similar foodstuffs. Beyond these considerations, I would think normal good aquarium husbandry would be the only issue to their keeping.>
Thank You,
Morgan Moroni
<Best, Chris>

Keeping locals (cool/cold water marines)
To all the wonderful WWM staff (especially Anthony)
Please have your coldwater specialist answer this
     As a So. Cal. resident, going to piers often, and seeing on an almost regular basis many pet trade specimens (sharks and rays) 2 of which I have seen at my LFS.  I have never known what they were except a famous few, but would like some care data on my locals, especially the ones I am interested in.  They are numbered an listed in the order I would like them.  As previously mentioned,  I am looking into a 220 gal tank, and cold water is still an option.  Their captures will be mentioned also.  First, Zapteryx exasperata.  Is it 'exasperating' to keep (pun intended)?
<Nope. Refers to markings>
I find this to have an occasional appearance at the piers.  Second is Rhinobatos productus,
<Note to readers, these are Guitarfishes... dorso-ventrally flattened Elasmobranchs (shark relatives)>
These are there almost every other time I go.  This is also the one at the LFS, but it was kept at 78 degrees!
<Not well or for long>
  Is there a similar looking species that it could have been, but then again, there was also a Urobatis halleri <I changed the spelling> in there.  What would be first, but there is the size constraint, is Triakis semifasciata.
<Too big, active for such a small, rectangular system>
  I found this to be much more than semifascinating. (pun again intended)  My friend hooked one of these himself, fishing for a Productus. His 180 gal was lowered to 75 pushing it for both the shark and the tangs.  Final for the locals I wish for is Urobatis halleri.  This was interesting later, as a different fish was identified as one.  That story was with a small Myliobatis californica.  One about a foot and a half wide was pulled in by my friend, and believing it to be a stinger, went to cut it off.
<Yikes... this fish gets VERY big... as wide in the wild as your tank is long>
Finding none, he assumed some thing had happened, and the stinger had fallen off.  He took it home, lowered the temp of his cage again, (the leopard went to 3 feet, and was released)  Now he had two rays, a blue-spotted and an eagle (unknowingly)  He took good care of it, but it succumbed to temperature poisoning (as we call it) 75 degrees wasn't good enough for it.  It lived about 16 months.  I could not find them on your site, at least not their name specifically, the sand shark.  I believe it to be either Heterodontus francisci (most likely) or Cephaloscyllium ventriosum.  Do you know about the advanced care of either of these?
<Try the Google search tool on the WWM homepage (bottom left)>
     Now enough with the stories.  what kind of chiller would I need?
<Kind as in size? There are calculators for draw down (the diff. between ambient and desired temp.) by volume... I would look for at least a 1/2 HP unit>
To take a load off the chiller, could I make ice cubes from RO water to use for evaporation top off?
<You could... but this is very laborious, tiring>
  What kind of lighting, substrate, etc.  would I need?
<Please reference the sections on WWM on coldwater systems... the links therein>
  What type of filter media would I need? Carbon, bio-balls, filter pads, etc.  Would I need a current, or a wavemaker?
What type of decor is possible?  I saw your site that says little decor.  How much would they eat?
<All covered on the site>
  Looking at a possible placement of smaller food-sized fish or inverts for a shark or ray in a separate tank.  aka grunion and other small bait fish, or sand crabs, urchins, etc..  Would I be able to keep a water dweller (leopard) with a sand dweller (banded guitarfish)?
<Could be done in a large enough system. Hundreds to thousands of gallons>
  Please save me from giving the same fate as the poor eagle ray.
Thanks for your time,
another person named Bob
<Bob, time to "hit the books". Bob Fenner>

New coldwater ideas
Hi Bob!
I am once again looking into a coldwater system, but on a much grander scale.  I am looking at a 900 gallon acrylic system. (I was just reading about the insulative advantages of acrylic over glass in coldwater on your site) It will be 10' long by 4' wide by 3' tall.
<Neat>
the stand will be a reinforced steel frame used in hardware stores, covered in wood for a more aesthetic appearance, and will also have a 220 Tidepool/bait/refugium tank in the bottom middle of the stand. It will have multiple reinforcing walls inside the stand. For filtering, I am looking at a large fluidized bed going to a wet dry (the wet-dry to help reoxygenate the water after the fluidized bed sucks out all the oxygen. the chillers will be custom made from some DIY plans off the 'net, I will probably make 2 to 4 before I get the temp at a steady 60-66 F 
Its going to be outside (if/when I get it) so no artificial lighting will be used except for red bulbs for nighttime viewing. I might put 1 or 2 full spectrum bulbs on the Tidepool, for the algae. Are there any commercially available coldwater algae-eating snails?
<Yes... or should I say, there are wholesalers who purchase cool/coldwater ones from the U.S. west coast and these are available, often sold as tropicals>
do you know about the legalities of collecting organisms and rock from tide pools/rubble areas?
<A little. Is this for California? All States have their "fish and game" groups, laws, licenses/taxes... and there are protected areas, sizes, often seasons, limits, species... contact the "fish and game" (sometimes called by other terms, e.g. Dept. Natural Resources... re what they require, limit>
is it legal to purchase fish (horn/swell sharks and guitarfish especially) off the piers and keep them?
<I think so. Quite a task gearing up for these moves though... but a very worthwhile adventure... need good battery operated air pumps, a 12v ("cigarette lighter") fluid moving pump... can be had from bait/tackle shops...>
If you want them, I can send you some of my plans from the computer (it is not entirely exact, the refugium may need to become smaller if more chillers are required)
Thank You,
Robert
<Send it/them along when you have them done or thereabouts. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Cold water marine tank in the UK, collecting Actinia    4/16/06
Hello,
<Hi there>
I'm very much into tropical freshwater fish keeping and would like to start looking into keeping a cold water British saltwater tank. I haven't
been able to find that much information which goes into enough detail for me.
<Mmm, there are some very good books (e.g. by Dick Mills), even magazines (Marine World) that give good coverage here... and some very worthwhile articles worth pursuing by Dave Wrobel... requiring a large library/college visit likely>
The tank I would be using is 33in long by 15 in wide and 18in high. I would really like to keep some /Actinia equina/ or similar with
some small fish. Where would I find /Actinia equina /easily?
<... Perhaps a stockist... otherwise a biological supply house>
I'm not into diving etc but getting to the coast isn't a problem for me, I currently live in South end, Essex.
<Do check re local laws concerning collection>
The tank is lit by 2 x 20watt tubes. I currently have this tank setup as a planted tropical tank and the lower light loving plants seem to do well. Getting my hands on a
aquarium chiller isn't a problem.
Maybe I can speak to someone on the phone to find out more or be put in contact with someone who already keeps such a tank?
thanks for your time,
Graeme King.
<Try some of the local hobby clubs that are nearby. Contact info. can be found re in the back of Marine World Magazine. Bob Fenner>

Live rock in a cold water marine system  11/7/05
Hello crew
<Hi there Patrick>
I kind of have a dumb question if you don't mind; could cured tropical live rock be placed in a cold water marine setup, without affecting the beneficial bacteria?
<Mmm, depends on how much cooler... will subtend metabolism... might create a physiological stop for a time... but usually some will live, prosper a few days, to weeks later>
Thank you for your time, Patrick.
<Cheers, Bob Fenner> 

Coldwater Hermit Crabs in a tropical arrangement? 10/31/05
Hello WWM Crew,
I have a 25 gallon SW tank. Currently the tank is set at 78 degrees. I was wondering if a coldwater hermit crab species could live in my tank. I live in Monterey, California where there are many local tide pools that are occupied by many hermit crabs. I've looked online and the hermit crab species is Pagurus samuelis. I figured that since they are tide pool dwelling animals they are acclimated to frequent changes in their habitat, 
<Good point>
such as temperature, so they may be able to be ok at 78 degrees. What is your opinion? Thanks, Taylor.
<Might adjust... if tried/introduced during the warmer time of the year... but don't think these will live well or long kept in a tropical setting. Bob Fenner> 

Cold marine tank question- anemones and lighting – 03/18/07
Dear WWM denizens,
<Of the deep?>
I've enjoyed your FAQs quite a bit, but am finding it tricky to find information on setting up a cold marine tank.
<We don't have much... yet. Do a search about for the written works of Dave Wrobel here...>
  I have found the wonderful people at coldwaterfish (a yahoo group) and the occasional lurker on saltwaterfish.com knows something about cold marine tanks, but still am encountering difficulties.
<Okay...>
I have a 1/6 hp chiller, protein skimmer, and powerhead, in my 29 gallon tank.  I'm writing today to ask you about anemones.  My tank is going to be a sea star dominated tank-
<It's kind of small...>
I'll have 1 bat star and probably two ochre stars,
<Patiria and Pisaster? Know them well...>
but I'd also like to have a couple of anemones.  No (or maybe 1) fish, a couple of hermits, a couple of snails, that's it.
<Mmm, again... wish this tank were bigger>
Does anyone on WWM know about lighting requirements and Pacific NW anemones?
My initial research indicates that they need less light than tropical anemones, and indeed, that even fluorescent lighting would be sufficient for a couple of small anemones.
<Do need some of the same requirements... of temp., CRI as other Actinarians from the tropics... not as much intensity...>
Your response is most appreciated.  Thanks again for being there on the web.
Rachel
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/inverts/index.htm
Scroll down to the Anemone tray, the bits on lighting... And do consider penning an article or twenty on this field! Bob Fenner>