Quest For Silence - 01/22/06
Hi WWM crew!
<<Hello!...EricR here this morning.>>
I am continuing on my quest for a silent tank, and the current problem is that my pump is really loud, and I am very sound sensitive.
<<Mmm, so is my wife...and I experienced similar problems when I installed my 375 gallon reef tank.>>
The tank is setup in the living room, so we hear noise from it constantly.
<<Ah yes, I can sympathize.  Mine too is in the living room...originally drowned out the television...the Mrs. was not pleased.>>
We got all other noises reduced, so the pump is the last item to fix, noise level wise.
<<Excellent, so let's see what we can do about the pump...>>
We have a 75 gallon tank, which is currently being run with a sump setup, and a RIO 14 HF.
<<Hmm, these pumps a generally "fairly" quiet considering their cost, but there are better choices for a return pump in my opinion.>>
The vibration noise is very significant.  We lined the cabinet and the sump pump chamber with soundproofing, but it just muffled the noise, it is still quite loud.
<<Yes...you need to "dampen" the vibration.  Try placing some "spongy" material under the pump for it to rest on.  Perhaps a piece of filter sponge like that used in pond filters...or even an old "mouse pad."  Depending on your plumbing, adding a short section of flexible tubing (input and output) can reduce vibrations transmitted to other components of the system.>>
Is there another pump that is quieter that would match the flow of this one?
<<The Mag-Drive series of pumps may work for you (is what I use): http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_powerheads_pumps_danner_mag_drive_supreme.asp?CartId= >>
Should I switch to an external pump? (not even sure if I can with my sump)
<<Not necessarily>>
I was looking at "Quiet ones", and Velocity pumps (but then I might have a heat problem) and Iwaki or Eheim, but I have heard the latter two can be noisy also....
<<The latter two are great pumps...I have been standing next to some Iwaki pumps that you had to put your hand on them to tell they were running...and if a submersible Eheim would fit your flow requirements I believe you would be very satisfied with its performance too.>>
Thanks for your input!
- Sleepless in Alberta...
<<Regards, EricR>>

Noisy Air Pump  12/15/05
We have a "Elite 802" air stone
< Actually the Elite 802 is a pump, not an airstone.>
for a 10 gallon tank that is really noisy. Do you have any recommendations for any air stone's <pumps> that aren't noisy? This thing is pretty loud and we even have it laying on a folded over dishtowel to buffer some of the noise. Thank you!
< This is a very common problem that aquarists encounter with small aquariums. Little vibrating air pumps are relatively inexpensive but almost all of them work off a vibrating diaphragm. With little plastic housings there is not enough ballast around them to contain the vibration or the noise. Bigger ones were sometimes no better. The was a company many years ago that made an outstanding pump called the Silent Giant. It was an incredibly powerful pump that you could hardly hear. Unfortunately they began to use cheaper materials, the quality went down and they were not nearly as good and the company went out of business. Unplug the air pump from the airline while it is till plugged in. This is as quiet as it is ever going to get. Lots of the vibration comes from excessive back pressure, liked clogged airstones or kinked airlines. If the problems are fixed but it is still too noisy then you will have to change to an outside power filter. Other little air pumps are not going to be much better. Look at the penguin brands. The only noise you will hear is the sound of water running over the filter. Some people actually find it relaxing.-Chuck>

Noisy skimmer pump  12/13/05
Hi all. I have got a 30 gal reef tank and have just brought a aqua medic BioStar flotor that came with a Oceanrunner 2000ltr pump and the problem is with the pump, it is very noisy which I can only describe as a very loud hum and it is also vibrating too much. Is it a problem with the pump where it needs taking back to the shop or can it be fixed. <I'd talk to the horse himself.  Contact here.  www.aqua-medic.com  James (Salty Dog)>

All but one noise source conquered 10/31/05
Gentlemen,
<What about the gentle ladies here?>
as much as I attempted not to bother you guys, I honestly believe I am stumped with this noise issue. After reading the FAQs I researched and bought the Stockman pipe (Durso alternative) to solve my overflow box noise problem (Thank You WetWebMedia!) but as much as I have tried I cannot seem to solve the gurgling noise from my refugium.
<Sometimes...>
Let me outline my setup, I have two converted wet dries - the larger one is a sump and the smaller is a refugium which is slightly raised higher than the sump to use gravity to return water.. The refugium and the sump are side by side. The refugium has three 1/2 in bulk heads all on one row. One for incoming water and two for outgoing water. Water is pumped into the refugium from the sump via a 1/2 inch bulk head. Water is returned by gravity to the sump by the remaining two bulkheads. No matter what I try, I have loud gurgling noises - I assume the result of air and water mixing.
<Yes... these bulkheads/through-hulls are too small in diameter...>
I have even put another small pump inside the refugium to help in circulation but mainly to "push" more water to the two outlets hoping to prevent the noise. I also tried capping one of the bulkheads but that did not work. I REALLY need some help here. I want to get my refugium working to help with NNR but I am facing a revolt because of the frequent
loud gurgling noise.
Thanks in advance
A grateful newbie.
<Mmm, drill out, fit larger through-puts... done. Bob Fenner> 

Aspiration?? And/or options  10/20/05
Good morning.  
<Yep>
I am looking to solve the flushing noise dilemma in my 60gal almost
FOWLR (almost, because I have some neat hitchhikers on the rock that are doing well).   
<Okay>
Set Up:  60 gallon, back is drilled about 4" from top of tank, way off to one corner.
<Four inches? This is quite a bit of "transit volume" to accommodate below... i.e., what happens to all the water above the bottom of this through-put if/when the pump quits?>
Im using 1" PVC.
<For a drain line? Too small...>
Inside tank, there is a 90 degree elbow
facing up toward surface with screen thing on it.  Outside tank, another
90 elbow facing downward at a 45 degree angle, and a flex pipe running
the whole length of the tank, and beyond, at that angle to a filter pad/
<These can be problematical... need to be cleaned... sometimes daily>
bioball column/chamber, which then trickles into a sump.  Mag 7, running
wide-open, pushes the water back to the tank using a hang-on style
return feed.  Might sound odd, but with the stand I have, the sump can
not be "under" the tank.  It is off to the side.
<Yes, happens>
As you can guess, I have that cyclic flushing sound.
<Luckily in at least one important case... w/o actual siphoning, the one inch I.D. line would not be able to "keep up" with the Mag 7 flow... In other words, w/o  reducing same, and/or increasing the number, diameter of the drain lines... you can't aspirate to reduce noise, flushing...>
And based on the set up, can't use a Durso standpipe,
<Correct>
and from the look, the external
modified Durso needs the J-tube skimmer box...I don't have that either.
I've read the FAQ's till my eyes burned, and now I have info overload.
Aspiration:  is this as simple as sending a 1/8" flex pipe down the
overflow, and seeing if the flushing stops?
<Would/could be... but you don't have a large-enough drain line to allow the volume/speed of water to return... the one inch is too small>
Or sticking a BIC Pen tube in the first 90degree elbow, out the top above the waterline in there,
as an "air chimney" ?
<Likely need the air to "originate" further down in the line than "flipping a BIC" would do>
Either way, won't this reduce the flow, and
potential cause an overflow (unless I work on the  return? )
<Yes>
I was advised by my LFS to create a baffle, and stuff it into the
outflow.  Did you know that it can take almost 20 minutes for the inflow
to exceed the outflow, causing an overflow?
<Yes... poor idea>
The flow difference must
have been miniscule... a wet mess none the less (luckily I was nearby when she started to pour over).  
I've also heard that putting an air valve on the outer 90 elbow will
help; sort of like the air valve on the true Durso ... Will this create mega outflow; or bubblemania?
<Some of the latter, but no increase (actually decrease in flow, due to the loss of the periodic siphoning effect>
Then, I've read that the configuration of the drain tubing can/does
affect the noise.  But haven't found any info on what configuration is
particularly quiet.  Again, I have a flex pipe, running at a sagging 45
degree angle straight to the sump.     
<... here come your options...>
Now, I don't know what to do, or what to try first.  Any suggestions ?
THANKS        
John M
<Well... you can drain the tank, re-drill the one line (or better) add one, two more... Or you can use (if there is another one) the pump/return fitting for more drainage, and pump/return water over the top of the tank edge... and/or you can reduce the flow rate from your pump, divert the "excess" flow elsewhere than the tank... Less desirably you could add an overflow box to this current arrangement... adding its draining capacity (I would not do this)... Basically, to put this in another way, you've been saddled with an inadequate diameter, number of drain-hole/s, too large a pump... Bob Fenner>

Sump Gurgle & Overflow Noises 10/7/05
I have read over a lot of the Q&As regarding noise in the plumbing but have not been able to find a solution to the gurgle noise coming from the water entering my sump. I have a 90 Gal Plexi tank with three 1" drilled bulkheads on the top back of the tank.
<Too small a diameter>
I placed a T on each of the overflows with a small drilled hole to help vent. Water flow decreases with the vent holes but without them I get the sucking noise at the bulkheads. 
<You could aspirate them... or re-drill...>
I have the three overflow lines running into a 1 1/2" junction which then runs to the sump at about 4-5" below water level after a couple 90 degree bends. 
<Won't help>
I get a large volume of gurgle sounds with a lot of air bubbles. What should I do to help vent off the added air going into the sump. The gurgling is the largest sound irritation and if I can quiet that down and at the same time reduce the bubbles I can keep the family from running the TV volume so loud. I am also running a Mag 9.5 pump which I have to reduce slightly using a ball valve so I assume that the three 1" overflows recommended by a local fish store were not large enough.
<Bingo... now you're starting to make sense>
Thank you for all your knowledge and help.  Mike Raymond 
<Read re aspirating lines... you might be lucky to simply fit some lengths of 3/16 ID hard tubing down the T's... Bob Fenner>

Pump noise question with a twist  10/3/05
Greetings crew. <And to you>
I really hope that I didn't miss the answer to this in the FAQs, if I did, I apologize in advance.
I have a Japanese Iwaki 30 series for the return pump from my sump.  Due to
space constraints, it is connected to the sump via vinyl tubing, and it
returns the water to the tank via vinyl tubing & SCWD.  All of the drain
lines are hard plumbed.  
I passed the freshwater leak test but there is an underlying hum from the
pump that is, I believe, louder than I might achieve.  After a bit of poking
around, I believe that the vinyl tubing that connects the sump to the Iwaki
is amplifying what would be a tolerable amount of vibration noise from the
pump itself.  I believe this is the cause because I can feel the vibration
in that length of tubing, but not in the pump, or the walls of the sump.
Changing the orientation/underlayment of the pump has no effect, but I can
dull the noise by fiddling with the orientation of the vinyl tubing.  I'm
just hoping that there might be a more permanent solution to the problem
without me having to hold the vinyl tubing just so, as it would make it very
difficult to observe the tank while holding onto the sump plumbing :*)
Hard plumbing this I don't believe is feasible, due to limited space.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. <Although the Iwaki's are an excellent pump, I think they are a little noisier than most. Hard plumbing the return would just make this noisier.  If the pump is inside a cabinet you could line the cabinet with insulating foam.  This will dampen the noise level.  You may want to put a piece of foam under the pump itself also.  James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks so much,
Sam

Noisy Wet/Dry - 09/29/05
Hey crew,
<<Hey Clare!>>
I have a 75 gallon sw tank, and it is an older model, and makes a whole lot of noise <<?>>.  I have a wet dry filter<<Ah, yes...can be very noisy.>> (125 capacity) and we decided to put a towel over the wet dry filter, this really helped with the noise. I was just wondering if this was OK to cover the filter or if you see any problems with it?
<<Mmm, interesting question... But as long as you're not blocking air/oxygen from entering the filter (else, I'm sure you are already aware, you defeat the purpose of the wet/dry), using the towel to dampen noise shouldn’t be a problem.>>
Thanks,
Clare
<<Welcome, EricR>>

Aspiration (Let Those Return Lines Breath) - 07/14/05
Hi Gents (and/or ladies)
<<Howdy>>
I was wondering if you could assist me in understanding the concept of aspirating an overflow return line.
<<I shall try.>>
The only information I can get so far is - "..a small/er diameter line (flexible or rigid tubing) can be inserted into the larger diameter overflow line/s allowing more gentle mixing of air with water" , but I cant seem to find any FAQs or other docs that go into more detail about this.
<<Mmm...have seen these on the site...>>
If for example I have a 1.5inch bulkhead overflow with 1.5" drain pipe, would the size of this aspiration pipe be something like 1/2inch or 1/4inch in diameter or maybe smaller/larger?
<<Requires some experimentation.  I like to use the smallest diameter that will do the job.>>
If for example I have a T-piece connected to the outside of the bulkhead, would this aspiration line go all the way from
the t-piece down to the sump?
<<Nope...experimentation again... Insert the tubing/pipe until maximum noise reduction/flow is achieved.  There will be a finite point/length where any more or less provides a lessened result.>>
Should the aspiration line be in "clear air" on both sides or should the bottom part be submerged?
<<Submerged... You are releasing trapped air from within the water column.>>
Apologies for all the questions. I don't understand the concept and
haven’t been able to find any more info on the net.
<<Not to worry...happy to assist.  But do be aware that aspirating your return lines is not a panacea.  It is affected by/a compliment to other factors/functions such as return pipe configuration, flow rate, etc..>> <<<Ooooh, well-stated Eric. RMF>>>
Many thanks
Chris
<<Regards, Eric R.>>

Butterfly and Filter Question
Hi guys,
<J.D.>
I purchased a wonderful little Auriga butterfly. In retrospect, I guess I purchased him a bit too small (about 2²). He did great in quarantine, but since I introduced him into the main tank there¹s traces of blood around his mouth.
<A sensitive area>
It doesn¹t appear that any of the other fish bother him (4 blue/green Chromis, a 6-line wrasse, cleaner shrimp). 175 gallon tank with perfect water conditions. Any ideas? Is there a softer food I should try feeding him?
<Try an assortment of crustaceans, small worms... live or frozen/defrosted... 'gooshed' in front near the Butterfly with a turkey baster>
In quarantine, I mostly fed him brine shrimp soaked in Zoe and either Zoecon or Selcon. Since I¹ve added him to the big tank, I mostly feed frozen cubes of Mysid shrimp, angel/butterfly cubes, plankton, etc.
<Try breaking these up, or just the small organisms themselves>
I have a twin pump Euro-reef skimmer in my sump. I was thinking about using silicone to glue neoprene pads to the bottom of the skimmer chamber and the pumps to knock out the vibration noise. Will the neoprene degrade over time or have any adverse chemical effect on the water?
<Use Polyester or Dacron... not the neoprene. Bob Fenner>
THANKS!!
--
J.D. Hill

Noisy plumbing--sump located in another room
Hello, and thank you very much for taking my question. I have looked through the FAQs and didn't find an answer to my situation...
<Welcome>
I have a 270 gallon reef tank in my living room. It is 72x30x30 and is a "peninsula design" (short side abuts a wall and you can view from the two long sides and the other short side). There is a single overflow abutting the wall. This overflow has two 1.5 inch drains and 4 3/4 inch returns.
<What, wait... reading further... this, these are the only fittings for water coming/going?>
The sump and filters are located in the basement laundry room. Water is returned to the tank via a Dolphin super amp master 5600 pump. Turning down the flow into the aquarium from the Dolphin pump did not quiet the system. Most
of the flow in the tank is via a pair of Tunze 6100's. 
The laundry room is one floor down and about 15 feet horizontally from the tank. A local plumber (who insisted he knew how to install aquarium plumbing) installed a 2 inch flexible pvc drain line and 2 inch return line.
<Dismal>
The tank has been running for a number of months now, but is very noisy. The is a gurgling/ air sucking noise constantly. Also, there is a flushing effect that cycles every five seconds. You can actually see the water spill into the sump in large boluses every few seconds. 
<Yes... oscillatory motion from siphon-effect>
I have twin 1.5 inch Durso standpipes installed (no help). Recently, I have been told that the problems is that the plumbing run to the basement was not done correctly. There are either small loops in the drain line or it is not pitched correctly.
<Mmm, two things...>
Finally....a question.....
What is the correct pitch for aquarium drain plumbing?  In other words, how many inches of vertical descent are necessary for each foot of horizontal run?
<An inch a foot minimum... the less horizontal the better>
Currently I have the two 1.5 inch drain combining into a single 2 inch flexible pvc drain hose. If I have to re-do the plumbing, would I be better off running twin 1.5 inch drain lines down to the sump?
<Ahh, now we're getting somewhere>
Thank you again for your help (and sorry so long), Michael
<This situation is not uncommon. We have a beginning of archived "noisy plumbing FAQ": http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbnoisefaqs.htm.  Am sure you'll enjoy the working title. 
You are correct that changing the number, size of your drains is a step in the right direction. I would have at least 2-2" inside diameter drains here, and (IMPORTANTLY) arrange an aspirator (a length of tubing (flexible) inside each to allow air (they need to "stick out" of the Durso "Tee" tops...) to get into the draining water trains... to stop the gurgling, oscillating... I apologize for the lack of clear description here (am still somewhat asleep... not an excuse, just a feeble description), but this will work. Bob Fenner> 

Plumbing Noise (And Solutions) - 05/24/05
Hello crew.
<Howdy!>
Thanks again for a sight full of great info. Your input helped me a great deal with a small tank project, a 55 gal. acrylic. I ripped out the little 4"x4" corner skimmer box and replaced it with a larger one that spans most of the back wall. Punched in two 1 1/2" drain lines center back, near the top of the tank.
<Excellent...You'll be happy you installed the large drain lines.>
I made a 3 section acrylic sump with baffles to separate air and a refugium. It uses all available space in the stand, which isn't that much.
<A common issue.>
Followed some of your recommendations for equipment. Aqua C skimmer, Mag 9.5 pump, (can throttle it back by opening a ball valve if needed) and two Sea Swirls to stir things up.
<Very good. But I'm hoping the MAG pump is not your only source of water movement.>
Everything is looking good and I'm getting amped. Water leak test passed.
<Whew!> 
Fired up the system to circulate water and was disappointed with the noise.
<As the Jetson's pooch Astro would say..."ruht roh">
Thought two 1 1/2" drains would be plenty for this little set up.
<Hmm...one might think...>
Messed around some and got it quite a bit better. First, I opened the ball valve in the water pump line to slow water flow a bit. Bulkheads went from 80% full to about 50% full but noise remained about the same. Wondering what is considered an optimal level to run bulkheads at? Each drain line (starting from fish tank) consist of one 90 degree elbow, one union, one ball valve and two 45's.
<I don't use/recommend placing valves on drain lines. Though some claim noise reduction by partially closing the valves, this also creates a restriction that will collect detritus or a stray snail(s) and lead to a possible flood condition; usually while you're away on vacation.>
Looks like the ID of these valves is quite a bit smaller than the 1 1/2" pipes.
<Oh yeah.>
Probably should yank them, right?
<Reading my mind.>
Second, I dropped the drain lines in the sump to just below the water level instead of just above. Cut way down on the splash noise and didn't seem to inhibit flow or increase noise topside. Was a little confused here because I've read conflicting FAQs on this subject.
<Different solutions for similar situations...fluid dynamics, go figure <G>. As your discovering, sometimes trial and error here is really the best way.>
Also, and this is my main question, I put the drain lines on about a 45 degree angles thinking they would be more quiet. That is to say, they start draining from the center back of the fish tank and drop into one corner of the sump. Poor logic?
<Nope. volume + velocity = noise>
Seems to me that a more gentle meandering flow vs. a free fall to the 45 degree elbows below would be more quiet. Another tweak that really did help was to shove a few inches of small vinyl tubing into each bulkhead.
<Aha! You have been doing your homework.>
Worked so well I am thinking of drilling breather holes in the tops of each drain line. Good idea?
<Is what I do. But don't just drill a hole and leave it, you'll have water everywhere. Insert some rigid airline tubing (play with it a bit to find that "optimum" length) and seal in place. For even more versatility you can put a short length of flexible tubing on the end with a valve for a more finite adjustment of air flow.>
Thanks again for a wonderful sight that I am sure gives great pleasure and insight to many. Jim
<A pleasure to serve. Regards, Eric R.>
PS: Are Bob Fenner's books sold at Barnes & Noble? It's time.
<I'll defer this to the Bobster.> <<Marina has not found any of his or Anthony's titles there, but has at some LFSs and always on Amazon.  Wonder if Overstock.com will take some of their business..>><Yes to our titles being available at B & N, Amazon... and ReadingTrees.com. RMF>

Standpipe noise, tempered glass tanks
Hi Guys! Me again.
<Me too!>
I have read several articles about this topic, but none that help me...
<Keep reading>
so here goes: I have a 65 gal FOWLR set up. I just had the back drilled, and I plumbed it on down to the sump... Flowin' like a champ. However, despite how much water I send down the shoot, I get that sink-draining sucking sound. Here is what it looks like... Bulkhead is about 5" from water surface, 90 degree PVC, that goes to a 1"(or so) threaded adapter, with one of those cone shaped skimmer thingymabobs on it to keep the little guys from getting sucked in. Out the back, there is another 90 degree, that is facing 45 degrees downward, and that is attached to some reinforced 1 1/4 ID tubing... That flows on downward to the sump. Once it gets in the sump, there is a MAG-7 pushing water back up. 
I cut out a few of the "bars" on the thingymabob, thinking it was too restrictive, and it did increase the flow, but did nothing for the flushing sound. Is there some sort of a baffle, or trick that would fit this set up and make my living room a quieter place? Everything I read, is for bottom plumbed systems. 
<A few tricks... I'd try installing an aspirator here...>
ALSO.. for your readers who might be thinking about drilling an aquarium... IF you have an ALL GLASS or an ODELL 55gal, and you wanna drill it... and you bought it at a chain store (Wal-Mart, Petco and so on). DON'T ! Despite the sticker saying "tempered bottom"... The whole %#%&& thing is tempered ! Let me tell ya... it is LOUD when it blows...and takes the diamond bit with it.
<Yeeikes!>
IF you bought the tank from a private dealer... ONLY the bottom is Tempered, and drill away. This is fact, and was verified by All Glass...
Thanks again in advance guys !! 
John Mulrooney 
<Start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dursopipefaqs.htm and on to the linked files above. Bob Fenner> 

Overflow Boxes - Noise Reduction
Hello Crew,
<How goes it?  Maddox here, listening to 'Korn - Beating me Down' and thinking how fitting it is...because in the time it took me to answer this, several more emails came in... ;)>
Thanks for the great resource.  Only wish I had more knowledge so I could join forces to help answer questions for you.  Maybe someday as I am fairly new at this.  Quick question regarding overflow boxes which I could not locate an answer on the site.
<Thanks for letting us know it helped.  We can usually use help here...but you must have had a decent amount of aquatic experience.  I read the daily's once a week or so for ~6 years and had aquariums for 10yrs before volunteering...and most of the time I feel I know just a little above zero>
I have just set up a 210 gallon tank with twin overflows.  As most others, I am trying to deal with the noise factor by using pre-manufactured Durso style overflow tubes (All Glass Aquariums). <The standpipes, or regular tubes?> Even with the tubes, we are still getting a fair amount of gurgling noise, etc.  
<Is it mostly echoing out of the overflow box, or resonating from the tubes?>  
A friend of mine has a single overflow set-up which he modified as follows:  In lieu of the overflow tubes, he set a crate (lighting grid) at the bottom overflow box then filled the overflow boxes with bio-balls.  At the top he placed a thin sheet of poly filter to eliminate the cascading sound (which he replaces weekly).  The set up is remarkably quiet.  I was wondering if a similar set up for a reef tank would be ok or would that create a longer term biological problem.  I would not thinks so, but you all are much more suited to answer the questions than I am. My set-up will use an 80 gallon sump in the basement with a My Reef Creations MR3 Skimmer.
<If you were diligent about replacing the poly filter, it shouldn't be a problem in a 210.  You could also cut a cover out of acrylic, or even ghetto rig it with a folded towel draped over the top of the overflows :)>
Thanks for your time.
<Glad to be of service>   
Michael
<M. Maddox>  

Overflow noise problem and solution
Hello Crew,
<Michael>
This one is easy since it is more of a suggestion to post for your readers
then a question for you all.   As we are all well aware, today's
manufacturers grossly undersize the overflow drains in standard tanks given
the flow rate sought for some of the reef tanks setup today.
<Yes>
  Trying to
watch the budget, I purchased a stock 210, 30 inch tall tank with the
standard twin overflows containing two 1 inch drains and two 3/4 inch
returns.  I figured that somehow I would overcome the noise and flow issue.  
Noise is of particular concern for us since the tank would be in our family
room.  As typical, I installed the Durso style overflows which eliminated
the waterfall, gurgling and sucking sounds.  However, I was running a fairly
high GPH (approx 1200-1300 GPH), which needless to say was overworking the
drains.  In lieu of the sucking sound, we had a fairly loud draining sound
similar to that of bathwater running through the drain in your walls, which
resonated through the water column and into the room.  I tried several
methods to get rid of the sounds but to no avail. The only method to quiet
down that sound was to throttle back on the pumps and significantly lower
the GPH - Of course defeating the desire of maximizing raw water to the sump
and skimmer.  It became clear to me that the only way to eliminate both
sounds and to have a really quiet tank would be to force the drain tubes as
well as the overflow boxes to fill with water. Artificially restricting
drain lines is highly frowned upon (and rightfully so) since the slightest
change in the flow rate in that line could cause the tank to spill over into
the room in which the tank sits - not good especially if the wife or husband
is looking over your shoulder.  So, I endeavored on a simple modification
which I think will solve both the noise problem and the overspill potential.
  Since most overflows come with two pre-drilled holes, I removed the 3/4
inch return line and used that as a primary drain hole (no Durso tube). Of
course I had to re-route the returns over the back of the tank as opposed to
through the overflow but that was a small price to pay for the quietness
that I gained.  In the intended 1 inch drain line, I inserted a Durso
standpipe.  I then artificially restricted the flow on the primary 3/4 inch
drain line such that the drains lines filled to capacity with water and
caused the water level to slowly back up into the overflow box.  Once the
water in the overflow box reaches the standpipe top, the standpipe takes
over as a drain line but only needs to handle a fraction of what it is
capable of handling.  I assume the system at this point has a built in
warning device in that if the primary drain ever gets clogged with
something, that ever so unfriendly roar of rushing water will return.  
<Hopefully>
Perhaps there is a flaw in my design and I invite you to let me know if I
have any unforeseen issues that may creep up, but I think it will work.  Let
me know if you disagree.
Thanks for the great site.  You guys and gals do an excellent job and are an
invaluable resource to those of us who are just starting out in this
challenging and stimulating hobby.
Best regards
Michael
<Mmm, well, I still believe in gravity... and would ask that manufacturers "up-size" their drain and return line fitting sizes... and that aquarists contact these manufacturers and ask the same... they WILL do this on special request... OR that people otherwise have the holes re-drilled or enlarged... small diameter lines are too likely to clog, become occluded... Bob Fenner>

Re: Overflow noise problem and solution
Bob,
<Michael>
Thanks for the response. I just thought I would share that with your group as I see it is a fairly common problem/question.
<Is very common... and I thank you>
I agree that a perfect solution would be to have the larger holes pre-drilled, but for those of us (myself included) that did not heed that advice, I think there is hope. As set up the drain system still relies on gravity while at the same time increasing drain capacity of a standard tank (with two 1 inch drains and two 3/4 inch returns) by 175%. The tank is whisper quiet and I am fairly confident that even if both 3/4 drains become clogged 100%, the 1 inch drains will handle all of the flow based on the circulation set.
Regards,  Michael
<A good point... and I hope you're right.... if it were me, my system, I'd practice test... plugging one of the 3/4" lines... and maybe one each of both sizes... to see if water hits the floor. Bob Fenner> 

- Overflow Noise -
Hello,
I just had installed a 155 gal all glass aquarium with two overflow boxes, one in each side. The tank is in my room and the noise from the water falling into the overflow boxes is driving me crazy. The tubes going from the bottom part of the overflow to the sump are one 1' and another an 1' and a half in each overflow. I don't have the canopy done yet nor the metal structure covered with wood will this help for the noise? <Only slightly... what is making the most noise is the sound of water falling the distance of the overflow, followed by the sound of air being drawn down the drain of the overflow. Both can be addressed with a stand pipe, which can be built in a number of configurations.> What can I do to reduce the noise form the overflow boxes? <Do look further into WetWebMedia as well as around the net for a "Durso Stand Pipe" - a good design that will help reduce, though not eliminate the sound from your overflows.>
Thank you
<Cheers, J -- >

- Overflow Noise -
Bob,
Hi!  I set up a tank for a customer, and she heard the sound that the overflow was making and just about threw in the towel on marine aquaria (no pun intended).  Afraid that she might not be able to make the sound more tolerable, she was considering switching to a canister at my recommendation.  She wants to have a full blown reef eventually, and another LFS has her really uneasy about canister use in reef aquaria.  From one more experienced, she would like to hear whether or not she will be able to successfully maintain a reef using canister filtration. <It is possible, yes but probably with a strong commitment to very regular water changes and diligence in keeping the canister clean. Likewise, it would be wise to have redundant canisters to keep the system running when one fails or is being cleaned.> With an Eheim Ecco, 1 1/2-2 lbs of liverock per gallon, good water flow, and good husbandry I feel like this could work. <Is also a quiet canister so might be a good choice for this customer... just make sure she buys two.> However this option does leave her with a hang on the back skimmer, she is afraid will make as much noise as the overflow. <Perhaps she just isn't really "ready" for a marine aquarium.> Are there any REALLY quiet hang-on skimmers? <In what way? They all make some amount of noise.> We were also considering getting the glass tank drilled. <This won't make anything any less noisy.> However with everything set-up and running, I'm afraid to tear everything down and get everything drilled and re-set-up and not have it meet the standards of peacefulness.  Are there any other relatively simple options we could work on putting together to make for a virtually noise-free system? <Think the redundant canisters might do the trick, although without a skimmer... would suggest you at least try an AquaC Remora to see if she can tolerate the noise. Encourage her that some allowances must be made to have an exquisite tank.> Thanks as always!
Scott
Critter Cabana
<Cheers, J -- >

- Overflow Noise, Follow-up -
Hi again and thanks for replying, what I did was get a 3 feet PVC tube and this helped the noise now I am going to buy an elbow so the water doesn't go straight down will this reduce even more the noise? <To some degree, sure.> And another question when refilling the sump should I always use antichlorine, even when I left the water sitting or using water from 5 gal drinking water they sell. <You only need to use dechlorinator when you are working with tap water. Purified water will likely not have any chlorine in it.> and if I put water to sit does it have to have a powerhead in it. <It should.>
thanks a lot
<Cheers, J -- >

How do get rid of that sump overflow noise, but still have a lot of circulation?
Hi
<< Blundell here. >>
I've read pages and pages of the FAQ's and loads of articles from the
website over the last year or so - loads of excellent info. thanks.  Anyway
I've had a smallish reef aquarium (35 gallon) for about a year with some
success, and now I'm setting up a 100 gallon fish only. In my experience
I've got just about everything with the other aquarium wrong first time and
had to change it so I'm trying to avoid that with this one.  So here is the
spec: 4ft*2ft*2ft tank, 3ft*1ft*18'' sump, loads of ocean rock, and other
suitable rock (none live), fluorescent T8 lighting (2-3 - undecided at the
moment), good skimmer (either 'the beast or AquaMedic Turboflotor - still to
decide). Lots of powerheads, etc.
<< Sounds good, especially the "loads of ocean rock". >>
So here are my questions:
Firstly I have an overflow which is an upstanding pvc pipe (1 and quarter
inch).  If I use the Rio 2100 to return the water (approx 2500 lph) turning
over the tank 5 times, I get a load suction noise. My LFS advised my to cut
the flow on the return into the tank.  If I reduce it so it's about a
1000gph I get an low level of noise which I prefer.  But this means the
total capacity of the tank only goes through the sump twice every hour. Is
this enough? << I don't like the idea of cutting down circulation.  I think you are better to search the web for "Durso stank pipes" or even add multiple drain tubes. >> The answer I think depends on what I have in the sump - which
then brings me to what to have in my sump? << You can't have to much circulation. >>
I'm keen on having live rock, although I do have plenty of bioballs (left
over from my original plans with the reef aquarium).  The sump is a fair
size with 4 chambers (an old tank that I put baffles into).  My original
plan was to have the water passing through filter pads, then the bio-balls,
then on to a refugium compartment (with live rock and sand and Caulerpa),
and on to the return pump. Would you suggest I include hermit crabs, sand
shifting snails and other snails in the refugium? << A few, but not many.  I would get rid of the bioballs, and just add more live rock. >>  If this is a good idea
where do put the skimmer in the order - or does it not really matter? << I would put the skimmer will before the Caulerpa grow out area, probably after the filter pads. >>
Obviously I need to have good water circulation, but how much in an FO tank
of this size? Would 10 times an hour be enough.  (I could do this with
powerheads in the aquarium). << Tough to answer, but when in doubt add more pumps. >>
So now the fish - which I suppose links to everything else.  I have a yellow
tang, and blue cheek goby which have outgrown the other tank. (the blue
cheek keeps chucking sand over the open brain coral!)  I have my heart set
on a Niger Trigger, and I really would like to get some sort of Angel.  I
like all the Angels I've seen and realize most would need an even larger set
up.  Can you suggest any apart from the dwarf angels which would be OK in
this set-up. << A 100 gal tank with lots of live rock really allows you to keep just about any angelfish.  I would just pick one that looks appealing to you (flame angel, coral beauty, rock beauty)??? >> I'm also considering getting a snowflake eel, and a lionfish. << These fish are nitrate factories in my mind.  I'm not sure I would keep them with the angelfish and goby.  I would either keep ornamental reef fish (goby and angel) or the aggressive fish (lion and eel) with your tank and trigger. >>
Can you see any problems if I get them all small? << Yes, I wouldn't get a small fish, if you do get the eel or lionfish, instead I would make sure your angelfish or goby are 3-4 inches long. >> Are there and clean up
crew that you could suggest? << In a 100 gal I would have a mix of 200 snails and about 100 crabs. >>
Finally - lighting, it's a deep tank, but not a reef aquarium.  Is it just a
matter of as much light as I like?
<< Pretty much.  If you want to grow coralline algae you'll need blue light, and if you want to grow Caulerpa you'll need light.  But if you just want the rock and fish, then it isn't that important. >>
I'd really appreciate any help you can offer me - I really want to get this
right, and not have to keep changing things - cost is a BIG factor for me. << For us all.... unfortunately ;) >>
<<  Blundell  >>

Loud toilet flushing sound from gravity overflow plumbing...
Hello WWM Crew, <Hello Dennis, MacL here with you this fine and sunshiny day.>
Thank you for all the advice you have given me in the past and I appreciate any help/advice you may offer. <Very kind of you to say.> Recently, I took the advice
of various postings on your website and had holes drilled into my new tank (acrylic 30 g show) for two 1" bulkheads at the top of my tank (at the water level) on the back panel. The water flows thru the bulkheads thru 1" clear flexible tubing and enters my sump/refugium (a simple AGA 20g long) w/ Chaetomorpha and live rock.  The return pump is a dolphin/pond master series rated at 650 gph.  The return pump via 3/4"clear flexible tubing returns the water to the tank thru 2 u-tubes. When the return pump is on, the water level in the main tank reaches an equilibrium at right below the very top of the holes in the 1" bulkheads.  <Sounds wonderful.>
This system works great and functionally speaking has been the best upgrade I have made thus far for my livestock (and as Blundell suggested, no problems w/ microbubbles).  But there is just one problem. the extremely loud sucking noise from the 1" bulkheads. Most of the time, the system just sounds like a babbling brook (and I can usually tolerate that sound), but every now and then it sounds like a loud toilet flushing, and this loud sound may go on for a long periods of time before it returns back to the brook sound.
I tried to add a filter cone to ease my paranoia that my fish would get sucked into the tubes, but adding the filter cones made the sound 10 times worse. <Its not the most beautiful but you could use something like a PolyFilter around it. Cut to fit and tied with rubber bands. Makes a great cleanser as well.>  I tried adding a 1/2" flexible tube about 2" long thru the bulkhead (I'm not sure why, but just thought I'd give it a try) and the tank actually did not make any sounds at first (i.e. it was even quieter than the babbling brook sound), but shortly after, the loud sound came back w/ a vengeance.  
Would adding elbows so that the drain in my tank will face downwards and would be well below the water level prevent such a sucking sound?  I hope that makes sense (not sure how to explain it more clearly since I am not a plumbing parts guru or great w/ DIY stuff). <I'm pretty sure I would but let me ask my water guru friend and send you a second email on that.>  Basically, I am rationalizing that since the water level is just below the top of the bulkhead drain that some air is getting pulled into the drain (and when I look at the drain it looks as though this is happening) and that is the reason why I hear such a loud sound.  But I am not sure and therefore seek your sage advice.  Thank you in advanced! <Dennis I wanted to get this out to you but will be investigating a bit more.  You should hear from me again shortly, MacL>
-Dennis

Toilet sound follow-up
Hello WWM Crew, <Hi Dennis, MacL here again with a follow-up. Just go to the end.>
Thank you for all the advice you have given me in the past and I
appreciate any help/advice you may offer.  Recently, I took the advice
of various postings on your website   and had holes drilled into my new
tank (acrylic 30 g show) for two 1" bulkheads at the top of my tank (at
the water level) on the back panel.  The water flows thru the bulkheads
thru 1" clear flexible tubing and enters my sump/refugium (a simple AGA
20g long) w/ Chaetomorpha and live rock.  The return pump is a
dolphin/pond master series rated at 650 gph.  The return pump via 3/4"
clear flexible tubing returns the water to the tank thru 2 u-tubes.
When the return pump is on, the water level in the main tank reaches an
equilibrium at right below the very top of the holes in the 1" bulkheads.   
This system works great and functionally speaking has been the best
upgrade I have made thus far for my livestock (and as Blundell
suggested, no problems w/ microbubbles).  But there is just one
problem. the extremely loud sucking noise from the 1" bulkheads. Most of
the time, the system just sounds like a babbling brook (and I can
usually tolerate that sound), but every now and then it sounds like a
loud toilet flushing, and this loud sound may go on for a long periods
of time before it returns back to the brook sound.
I tried to add a filter cone to ease my paranoia that my fish would get
sucked into the tubes, but adding the filter cones made the sound 10
times worse.  I tried adding a 1/2" flexible tube about 2" long thru the
bulkhead (I'm not sure why, but just thought I'd give it a try) and the
tank actually did not make any sounds at first (i.e. it was even quieter
than the babbling brook sound), but shortly after, the loud sound came
back w/ a vengeance.  
Would adding elbows so that the drain in my tank will face downwards and
would be well below the water level prevent such a sucking sound?  I
hope that makes sense (not sure how to explain it more clearly since I
am not a plumbing parts guru or great w/ DIY stuff).  Basically, I am
rationalizing that since the water level is just below the top of the
bulkhead drain that some air is getting pulled into the drain (and when
I look at the drain it looks as though this is happening) and that is the
reason why I hear such a loud sound.  But I am not sure and therefore
seek your sage advice.  Thank you in advanced! <Dennis after consulting with an expert he says you need to add a plumbing trap to your drain hoses. Like what you'd find on the bottom of a sink. A place where water stands and you can do that with pvc or you can bend flexible hose into a U shape going down then back up then down. Basically creating a place where if your pumps were off water would stand. If there wasn't a vacuum going from the tank. Think this should help you Dennis. MacL>
-Dennis

Loud noise!
Thank you very much MacL! <So glad I could help Dennis> That makes sense actually.  Will re-do my plumbing to see if I can get rid of the vacuuming. <Please let me know if it does work? MacL>  Take care!
-Dennis

Plumbing Noise 8/13/04
Good morning, I have several questions about plumbing noise!  
<this is a very common complaint... please do also (and first in the future) check our extensive archives at wetwebmedia.com on subjects like this. We build this database to help folks/friends like you>
I finally got my 150 gallon tank up and running with water.  I couldn't believe the noise.  
<sadly too common... this is from undersized overflow holes (diameter and/or number of holes drilled). This is a huge peeve of mine with mfg.s and merchants selling so-called "reef-ready" displays. They are hardly reef-ready. You may get an appropriate sized pump for the display, but without a large enough overflow... it sounds like a toilet, if not risking overflowing the display by out pumping the drains!>
First tank stuff;  150 gallon glass tank with one center overflow with two 1.5" bulkheads in my living room wall. It is viewed from three sides.   One bulkhead drains water to a 50 gallon refugium directly underneath the tank via 1.5" pvc.  The second bulkhead drains water to a 40 gallon sump underneath via 1.5" pvc.  
<the double sump is odd, complicated, unnecessary, ill-advised... and a potential risk (flooding) in the future. Do consider a single large sump>
The sump and bulkhead are on the same level and connected by two 1" flexible tubes near the top of the fuge.  Everything is gravity controlled.  I have union ball valves on everything and all discharges.  
<the ball valves on the outflow are definitely adding to the noise. The back up water by constricting the flow coming down and add to noise>
Sorry, but I think this will be long...
1st.  The overflow; It was like Niagara falls.  I installed two 1.25 Durso standpipes and that helped immensely.  
<OK>
2nd.  The return pump from the sump.  I have a Gen X Mak 4 pump.  It is incredibly loud.  I can hear it "hum" all the way upstairs.  It is not really a vibration because I have fixed that problem, just the normal turn of the pump.  I'm really not happy with it.  I haven't purchased my second pump for my closed loop pump yet.
<folks often spend much time and money searching for a pump "as good as an IWAKI". Take my advice mate... invest in a Japanese made IWAKI and enjoy a durable pump for the next decade and beyond. A case of getting what you pay for :)>
With all that noise from the primary, I am scared to get a second.  I know that everybody likes Iwaki's but I was under the impression that they were louder than the Gen X.  
< a mistaken impression... they have a couple models that are loud/necessarily like the dual 400... but overall, this brand is top shelf and they have a model/size (and silence) to fit any demand>
I must be wrong because I can't imagine a louder pump.  Can you recommend a QUIET pump brand so I can replace my Gen X and purchase a closed loop pump?  
<IWAKI hands down... I've been using them as a hobbyist for 15 years... and a decade of that has also been as a merchant>
The way I figure it, I have about 750 gph with the Gen X and I want to get at least another 1200 gph with the closed loop pump?  Sound ok?
<this 150 gallon tank needs a total flow of around 3000PGH or better if reef, and you will need 3-4 1.5 inch bulkheads to handle this comfortably>
3rd.  The water flowing through the pipes sounds like a running toilet all day.  Now I read many pages of the plumbing FAQ's and tried several fixes.  I used to have the 1.5" discharge pipes exiting underwater in both the fuge and the sump.  
<exiting at or slightly above the water surface for quieter flow>
I read this causes O2 pressure and can make a toilet noise.  I changed the tubing so it "falls" into the water.  The noise is still there.  Next I tried to put a air tube down the Durso Pipe, but that didn't work as well.  I am pretty confused.  I don't have a suction noise from the Durso's, and I don't have a problem with micro bubbles.  I just can't stand how loud all the PVC is.  
<I suspect the problem is that your overflow holes are simply overdriven>
Maybe this is just the way it will sound.  Can you actually get rid of the water flowing down pipes sound completely??  
<insulating foam (used to protect pipes from freezing)  often helps>
Should I reduce my 1.5" pipes to something smaller?  
<Yikes!!!!!!! no... it will get louder>
From what I read, that shouldn't be the answer.  What can I do to reduce/remove this running water sound?
<soft straight drops in the gravity line... and enough overflow holes to handle the flow... do compare bulkhead specs/capacity (at mfg site) to rate flow maximums>
4th.  I used to have the 1.5" pvc plumbed to a 1" T in my fuge to disperse the water flow.  This worked ok as long as I partially closed the discharge ball valve to the sump.  Is this common/ok to gate back the overflows?  
<not recommended.... neither the valve nor the tee>
Should I be concerned?  I tried to test fully closing each discharge to see if the other standpipe could handle the entire overflow.  If I closed my sump discharge, my fuge discharge (with the dispersing "T") couldn't handle the overflow.  The tank would have overflowed.  Is this common as well?  
<a common flaw, yes... as mentioned above - its from the overflows being undersized.>
I am new to the hobby and it is very hard to find plumbing info.  
Well, there it is.  Can you please make recommendations and problem shoot my loud tank?  Is this tank/sump/fuge design ok? Will it ever be quiet?  
<no worries... it can be made quiet!>
I am really sorry about the long email, but I really respect your team's opinion.  I have been planning this tank since December and everything I'm doing/have done is a result of this site.  It is a WEALTH of info and I would hate to think what would of happened without finding this site.  I can understand why so many people give up on SW tanks because the info is so complex and so few places to get the answers.  It is a shame that manufactures don't give you the info.  (IE. predrilled "reef ready" tanks with 1" bulkheads).  Thanks to you and your team for everything...
<do let us know what big city you live near... we can point you towards an aquarium club with kind members with quiet tanks <G> that can advice you locally. Best regards, Anthony>