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FAQs about the Imperator Angel Disease/Health 5

FAQs on Emperor Angel Health: Emperor Disease 1, Emperor Disease 2, Emperor Health 3, Emperor Health 4, Emperor Health ,
FAQs on Emperor Angel Health by Category: Diagnosis, Environmental, Nutritional, Pathogenic (see also:
Angels and Butterflyfishes & Crypt), Social, Trauma, Genetic, Treatments

Related Articles: Imperator Angels, Pomacanthus Angels, Marine Angelfishes

Related FAQs: Emperor Angels 1Emperor Angels 2, Emperor Angels 3, Emperor Angel ID, Emperor Behavior, Emperor Compatibility, Emperor Angel Selection, Emperor Angel Systems, Emperor Feeding, Marine Angelfishes In General, Selection, Behavior, Compatibility, Health, Feeding, Disease,  

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by Robert (Bob) Fenner

Emperor Angel with sore mouth      11/6/17
I have an emperor angel who's currently being quarantined in Cupramine.
<Pomacanthids really don't like Cu exposure... Please see (read) on WWM re>
He's on his 6th day and doing well at 0.35ppm. He eats well, no heavy breathing, swims around as usual. However recently he has started to develop some kind of sore on his lower lip.
<I cannot emphasize how DANGEROUS this is. I would remove (use GAC likely) all copper and take great care that this fish is feeding, and having more cover for this fish to hide, feel secure. IF the mouth continues to be infected... this specimen will die>
Attached is a picture of him.
Bit shy of the camera however you can see his lips on the reflection.
Please help me identify what this is, the cause and how to treat while in Cupramine. Any help on this would really be appreciated.
Kind Regards,
Sagen George
<And you, Bob Fenner>

Re: Emperor Angel with sore mouth     11/7/17
Thanks Bob. Much appreciated.
<Glad to share>

Emperor angel mouth reddish in colour; too long in QT, Cu exp.         3/22/17
Hello Bob or reef crew I have had a 4.5in juvenile in a 35 gallon long hospital tank for about 7 weeks. Ph about 8.1, salinity 1.022,
<Raise this>

temp 80 degrees. Used filter with filter floss seeded from refugium for about a week. Large pipe for hiding.
First four weeks were great as it looked perfect was eating everything with no meds. Then appeared to be showing ich so I dosed Cupramine slowly increasing the dose to 4-5 ppm.
No issues over the 14 days at full treatment level. I did a 50 per cent water change and used carbon for two days to remove copper. Then I thought I'd use PraziPro again using recommended dosage in case of internal issues. It's day 3 of 5- 7
recommended and I've noticed all day it hasn't eaten and a red colour in the mouth and around it externally.
I have also been doing 50 percent water changes every 3-5 days over the time it's been in the tank as its eating so much, and dosing appropriately when I replace water. I've been measuring copper concentration to ensure
its ok.
<Stop this>
The red colour looks like blood near the surface of the skin and is very concerning as it looks like a severe skin irritation of some kind.
<The copper, stress>
Looks like fish is labouring breathing but still around 60 breaths a minute. I read Bob said 80 was bad.
Hate to not treat with PraziPro for internal pests for full term of 5-7 days. Wondering if I should use carbon and water change to remove as much PraziPro as I can to get emperor back to health...
Do I risk the internal pests issue arising once it's in my 340 gallon display?
<Some, yes, but I'd be MOVING this fish; now>
Or try once again w PraziPro. I feel it really deserves to get into the display soon!
<I STRONGLY agree re moving it NOW>
Thanks so much!
<Bob Fenner>

Re: Emperor angel mouth reddish in colour    3/23/17
Bob thanks so much for your prompt response!
<Welcome Sandip>
Reason why I had emperor in QT so long was to see if I could get away without medicating beyond the freshwater dip before it went to QT.
<... I understand the theory; but would have all understand that beyond two weeks quarantine, there is more damage than good to be had likely>

I should give up in this concept and just medicate and have a maximum qt experience of 3-4 weeks.
<... Not recommended. I suspect that there is nothing pathogenic wrong with this fish; that its problems at this point are induced>
However week 5 issues (ich I think) arose which went away after using the recommended length of Cupramine treatment.
<Pomacanthids have low tolerance to copper. I DO NOT recommend that they be exposed to unnecessarily>
Also reason I was doing water changes so much was to keep water quality with the amount it was eating. 35 gallon for a 4.5in emperor but I was concerned about nitrates...
Emperor is looking a bit happier after the water change. The meds must be part of the issue. However I noticed some white patches raises from the skin -cotton like. You can see on the fishes left side at the bottom below
the fin around the breast. Photo doesn't show it very well but it is raised like cotton. I will send photo in a separate email now. Also the ends on the bottom fins look like they have lost skin.
I could put into my frag tank (attached to same system as Display) in a container so it can acclimate to display conditions with no one picking on it. I have a yellow tang and a Bellus angel in the 80 gallon frag tank. I could observe to see if it's getting better. The display is about 1.025 so I think I'm supposed to slowly raise from 1.021/1.022 to 1.025 over three days?
<If necessary>
Or should I just do over a day and get in frag tank?
<Yes I would>
I worry about spreading the cotton though...I can't imagine this is velvet as it didn't show in first 4 weeks, it's had 14 days of Cupramine too, and no new fish additions.
Thanks again for your advice!!
<Just stating what I would do given similar circumstances. Bob Fenner>
Fwd: Emperor Angel mouth red Photos of cotton on skin (I sent another email today referencing this photo)

> Photo not showing cotton very well but on the breast below fin. White patches and discolouration.
<Move this fish. B>
> Should this be medicated before putting in display system? Cupramine should have cured... not sure I have anything else to medicate other than Methylene Blue and Metroplex. I know you have expressed concern over
medication so far...
> Thanks
> Sandip

Aging Angel ( Emperor )     6/22/15
I have had an Emperor Angel in my 220 gal ( 96 x 24 x 24 ) FOWLR since 2005. 2 wet dry filters, 2 Euroreef skimmers ( rated for 180gal systems ) , 52 watt UV, 30 gal water changes every 2 weeks. Other inhabitants:
Adult Blue Girdle Angel, Adult Heniochus Butterfly ( aggressive fish ) Fiji Foxface, One percula clown , 2 yellow tail damsels, 2 spiny starfish. All in place and doing well since 2002-2005. There is a balanced aggression in the tank but every fish eats when fed and pushes for places in line when food introduced. The most visible aggression is when feeding but all fish seem to keep their own. The butterfly is the most aggressive but not really all that bad since the fish seem pretty evenly matched and no one inhabitant is clearly dominant.
The Emperor was about 5" adult when introduced 10 yrs ago and is now 9".
So I figure it must be at least 13-15 years old total. Over the past year HLLE has taken its toll and the Emperor has been eating less, and has become emaciated. For 2 weeks looks interested in food but does not eat.
<Am wondering if you've been able to control Nitrate (poisoning) over the years, using the two wet-dries... This could be a factor>
I think the animal is the equivalent of a 90 YO human, and in some ways acting that way.
<This and other large Pomacanthus Angels have been kept in public aquariums for 25 plus years>
The other fish are still respectful of the king/queen of the tank, but I fear its reign is coming to an end . Is there any advice for me here ?
<Mmm; not much... as you state. What do you feed? Have you read on WWM re?
I'd be using a good pellet as a staple, supplemented w/ frozen/defrosted foods, switching out, replacing some (a few tens of pounds) of new sponge-growing live rock every half year or so>
Not sure how long these animals live in the wild/ captivity. The other inhabitants have been in this tank the same number of years and they seem to be doing fine without any afflictions/ disease that I can tell. There have been no new additions for 10 years.
I just don't know what to do in such a situation
I am happy to be able to provide this post
I am not looking for miracles, just advice, opinion, experience
Many Thanks
<The reading on WWM re feeding, nitrate control. Bob Fenner>

Emperor Angel with a pimple?    10/15/14
Hi everyone.i have a beautiful juvenile emperor in my quarantine (its a 125 gal tank, ammonia ans nitrite 0, pH 8.0, nitrates about 20 (going to do a water change as soon as im done typing this),he is about 4 inches , eats from my hand just about anything i offer -he is currently beeing treated with Cupramine (test it daily and keep it at 0.4),
<Mmm; Pomacanthids don't "like" copper exposure. This spot may well just be a bit of congealed body mucus. Unless you have real reason for such treatment... I'd remove the Cu... See WWM re this species, family, quinine cpd. use>
He 's been there for about 3 weeks and no signs of ich anymore ,however yesterday i noticed a small pimple-like spot on his body .i tried taking a picture but he wouldn't hold still for a second .he doesnt seem to be bothered by it but i don't want it get worse.please let me know what you think.
thak you in advance
<I would not be concerned re this mark. Bob Fenner>

Emperor Angel Eyes-please help... Flukes, env., mortuus est.        8/25/14
Hello-i got an emperor angel online with a bunch of problems.
<Aye ya; I'll say>
The seller
said the fish was fully quarantined and supposedly went through PraziPro and copper(No way that was true) .First of all ,he arrived with flukes and
after 2 days in QT i could see them all over his eyes and when i tried performing a fresh water dip
<I'd have added some formalin with...>
i saw 40-50 fall of (i ve never seen so many
to come of from 1 fish).The reason i say "tried " is because he didn't take the dip well-became stiff as a board and refused to swim, so i rushed him back into his QT.i then tried PraziPro in his tank. Nitrite and Ammonia was at 0,Nitrate 30,
<... too high>
PH kept dropping slowly to 8.But this treatment was
stopped short too-the angel stopped eating and was laying in the corner looking as if he is about to die. His eyes got very cloudy. The water after dosing PraziPro was cloudy and after reading a bunch of posts on various forums i couldn't figure out why its staying so cloudy. So ended up putting carbon back in the filters 3 days after the start to get the Prazi out-and i got to say the angel was swimming shortly after. A day later i saw more flukes and attempted a second fw dip (PH and Temp was matched to the Ph that was in his tank)
-with same result-the angel was too stressed to keep
him in more then a minute,
<... this was NOT RO water (sans gas) I take it>
but even a minute left a lot of flukes in the FW
.And now i see white dots which look like ICH on him. I have Cupramine and
would like to use it but His eyes' been getting worse and now im afraid that copper might make it worse. They look like there is a white crusty tube-like extension coming from his cornea(i ll try attaching some pictures) .I added KanaPlex and Furan-2 in his water to protect/treat possible infection of the eyes. But i think the ich needs to be addressed too.
Please help,
<Well; where to start here? It appears you're aware of the routines for standard treatments... and dips/baths thank goodness as well. Should I refer you to reading about eye problems with Angels? I would aerate your next and all future immersion baths, and try a modicum of formalin per the SOP on WWM. I do hope this fish rallies for you. Bob Fenner>

Re: Emperor Angel Eyes-please help       8/26/14
hi,i just got home from work and he seem to be worse. He seem to be doing a
slow barrel roll...
<Very bad>

i did a 50% water change with water out of my reef. So
Nitrates are down to 15-20 (its really hard to differentiate between the shades) The water i use is RO
<Has no oxygen in it... We've had a few write-ins where "the apparent immediate stress" was due to the fish not being able to respire...>
and i do have a pump and airstone in my
dips/bath. I usually aerate the water for about 30 min before i put the fish in.
<Ah, good>
I'm not sure if i should try another dip.
<... it's too late. BobF>

Emperor Angel wasting away.     2/26/14
Hi Bob,
About a month ago I purchased a juv Emperor Angel about 5 cm.s in size originating from the Philippines. He is eating well as are all the other fish in the tank. I feed small amounts about four times a day, New Life Spectrumax and other foods. He eats very well getting 7-10 pieces (1mm) each feeding but is slowly losing weight. Even a tiny Regal Angel about 3 cm.s is fat on the same diet so I suspect an internal parasite. Any ideas please?
<Perhaps internal (lumenal) parasites... see/search/read on WWM re...
perhaps a one-time lacing of the Spectrum (see the SOP re Furunculosis re) w/ Metronidazole. B>
Kind regards,
Emperor wasting away. Coppered     2/26/14

I forgot to add I am treating with Cupramine at 0.5
<Oh; toxic. This IS adding to the fish's troubles>
all other fish are fine but the Emperor is blotchy since adding the copper but not scratching or being bullied etc. Are Emperors very sensitive to Copper?
<Yes.... just search, read on WWM>

Other fish in the tank are tiny Regal Angel, Adult Majestic Angel, Adult Blueface Angel, Regal Tang and two Ocellaris clownfish. All fine even the "holes" in the head on the Majestic and Blueface when I first added Cupramine have gone.
Kind regards,
Update on Emperor. Cu and angels       3/9/14

Update for your readers - I decided to strip the copper from my tank using Seachem's carbon. I was surprised how long it takes but after a week the copper level was down to 0.1 and I replaced with a second set of carbon for two reasons, after a week I suspect most of the carbon is saturated and also if the pH should drop I did not want the copper going back into the tank.
The Emperor has improved in colour and the blotches have gone. I decided not to treat for internal parasites as having read up I was concerned about my bacteria filtration. The Emperor is still eating well and his weight seems to have stabilised. I am suspicious as to how he was caught (Cyanide etc) but hope his digestive tract bacteria is returning.
<As the fish is eating; and didn't perish almost immediately from; I suspect it is fine>
I have learn that Copper is more sensitive to Emperors than to the mostly harder to keep Regal, Blueface and Majestic Angels, the Regal who was eating half the time when the Copper was at 0.6 is now eating well.
Kind regards,
<Thank you for this report. BobF>
Hole in the head on Majestic and BlueFace Angel      3/9/14

<Hello again>
Fortunately after decreasing the amount of copper in the water, 80% of the "holes" have gone.
Kind regards,
<This too. B>

Sick Emperor Angelfish... impugned immunity    9/2/2013
First and foremost thank you for the wonderful site.  It has vastly helped advance me to being a better saltwater care giver.
 I have reviewed the site pretty extensively, and believe that I have battled through an episode of Marine Velvet.  The system is two 120 gallon tanks connected with a 60 gallon sump.  Total water volume is 300 gallons, and the tank is a mixed reef.  Parameters are as follows pH 8.4 CA 420 ALK 8.5-9.0, MG 1200. Fish population left is one goby, one clown, and an emperor angel (currently in a hospital tank).  I know I need to catch the other two, and leave the tank fallow for at least a month.  Probably going to do 8 weeks unless you think that is excessive.
<As long as the fishes can stay out, w/o weakening... is better>
Two weeks ago I was able to get out the emperor angel, and saved his life before the marine velvet devastated him.  I treated him with ten days of quinine sulfate in a hospital tank (40 gallons, bare bottom, temp 77, power head, canister filter (No carbon just sponge), and airstone) NH3 0ppm Nitrites 0ppm).  I performed 25% water changes daily (using main system water per your articles recommendations) per directions of the quinine while siphoning the glass bottom.  The marine velvet cleared up, and the emperor was looking good.  After quinine treatment was over I was performing 5 gallon water changes daily while siphoning the glass bottom, and measuring parameters.  (NH3 0ppm, and Nitrites 0ppm)  About 4 days ago (Day 12) i noticed open sores with non cloudy eyes and thought this might be lymphocytis. Reading the website I decided not to do anything as the fish was still eating.
<Good and good>
  Two days ago his eyes started to get cloudy, and he stopped eating.  I have attached three photos.  Please advise on what I should do to keep this fish alive.
<Mmm, no treatment/s, but simple good water quality maintenance and nutrition. What you see is mainly a matter of stress from the disease, move, small volume...>
When the fish's eyes got cloudy I retreated with ParaGuard as I don't have enough quinine sulfate to do another treatment. 
I am thinking this could be the disease reinfesting, but wanted to get confirmation.
<Not likely a recurrence>
  Is the current medication good in this instance?  It looks like a mixture of Methylene blue and malachite green.
I know if this is velvet this is not the treatment of choice.  Do you have another recommendation until the quinine sulfate is delivered?  Would it be better to do no medication, and just do pH adjusted same temp freshwater dips?
Please help
<Again; and last, I would NOT treat this fish. It's already being pushed...
Bob Fenner>

Re: Sick Emperor Angelfish    9/5/13
Thank you for your quick response.  The angel is still not eating.  Eyes are still cloudy.  The Lymphocystis is not as fuzzy, but looks like open sores.  Breathing is normal, but he does twitch a little (not flashing)
Would you still leave as be.  Any recommendations to get him to eat?  Half shell clam?
<Lace foods w/ vitamin, HUFA based feeding stimulants (see WWM Re); and add a squirt to the water; along w/ a double dose of iodide-ate supplement. BobF>

Re: Sick Emperor Angelfish   9/6/13
Thank you!
<Ah, welcome> 

Emperor Treatment QT?     8/8/13
To whom it may concern,
Hope you are well.
<Thank you>
I have an Emperor Angel (5" adult coloration) in a 33 gallon QT tank. It has been in the tank for 9 days. I started his first treatment of PraziPro 2 days ago.
The Emperor eats pellets (NLS & Hikari Seaweed Extreme),fresh clams and oysters and Julian Sprung's Sea Veggies (Green & Purple).
His color and condition is immaculate!
I have read a ton about Cupramine and have been strongly advised by credible members on ReefCentral to treat whether the Emperor shows signs of parasitic infection or not.
<I agree>
My plan is to administer another treatment of Prazi after the current one and observe for another week after the 2nd treatment. That would bring the Emperor's total time in QT to 4 weeks.
<Mmm; this fish/specimen is ready to be moved. I would place it in your main/display system>
Personally I know their is a lot we don't see when it comes to parasitic infections and preventative measures are a good idea but if I believe the Emperor to be healthy after qt I don't want to unnecessarily treat, especially an angelfish, with copper (Cupramine).
<Further agreed>
What are your thoughts and what would you recommend in my situation?
<As above>
Thanks for you time.
<And you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

P. imperator... beh., comp.      5/20/13
Hi guys I have a quick question, I have a 5" emperor angel in my 187 gallon tank ( tank dimensions 60"x30"x24"), I've had him for around 8 months but recently I noticed blotchy white patches all over his body,
<Mmm, such are usually due to "emotional distress"; though can be physiological directly>
 I went to feed my fish today and as usual the emperor & my puffer
<Mmm, what species, size is this puffer?>

 where the first two fish up at the top of the tank but when I fed the fish he sort of picked at the food and didn't seem his bullish self now he has got me a bit worried, the blotchy white patches have appeared and his colour has faded a bit, is this a disease or is the angel still in the process of changing from juvenile to adult coloration?
<Perhaps a bit of the latter>
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
<I'd be keeping my eye on the puffer, other livestock here. Something is not to the Emperor's liking. Bob Fenner>
Re: re:     5/21/13

Thanks for the reply Bob
The puffer is a Stars and Stripes puffer he's around 7 inches,
<Mmm, the principal, a principal culprit>

But I've never seen either the puffer or emperor go near each other in an aggressive manner
<... just the same... could be intimidating the Angel>
 not even when food is in the tank in fact the puffer is the most docile fish in the tank. I know the emperor will get too big for the tank but I don't think he has to compete for space or food at the moment, I should point out that he isn't breathing heavily and is swimming around as normal and he has started to eat again and  be his normal bullish self so I'm pretty happy with that, but I was over in my lfs and they said I should give him a formaldehyde dip
<?! I would NOT do this. Too toxic and traumatizing>

but I don't want to stress him or do a dip just incase it has a negative effect on him, but the white patches are still bothering me so I was just wondering if you think  is it best to do the dip or have the poor fish go through unnecessary stress by catching him and putting him in a bucket if there is nothing wrong with him, I appreciate your input Bob.
<As prev. stated; I'd just stay observant at this point. BobF>

Emperor with pin holes     3/7/13
<... seven meg.s?! Inconceivable!>
Bob, My Emperor has been developing little scars around head and face. He eats new life spectrum pellets  mostly. He is a very shy fish, and is afraid to really get his grub on when I feed Mysis or angel for formula.
Likes to stay near his cave. He is the King of the tank. There is a Queen and a Blueline Angel with him, but they shy away from him when he comes out. i have never seen a fish pick on him. . They eat everything and have no signs on them at all like the Emperor has. S.g. 1.025 ,ph 8.36, Nitrate 10, Nitrite 0, Amm 0.  I guessing it lack of nutrition, but I thought spectrum pellets was the holy grail of food? Hope you can help, Jim
<... see WWM re HLLE, and/or the disease/health FAQs re Pomacanthus imperator. Sheesh. B
Re: Emperor with pin holes     3/7/13

Seven Messages? What are you talking about?
<Megs mate... as in eight bits to a byte. B>

Emperor angel variety of symptoms, rdg...  02/13/13
Hi Crew,
I have had a juvenile emperor angel in a 120g tank for around 6 months ago.
Got Ich while in QT (cured with Hypo) and was introduced into the DT 3 months ago. A couple of weeks back I noticed colour fading slightly and 2/3 small holes in the head on one side. His energy seemed low and feeding reduced slightly. What was most worrying is the way he began wasting away so quickly despite seemingly eating 50-80% of what he ate before. In the last few days it really has become very noticeable and he looks very skinny all over. I also notice that the gill plates look reddish although this may just be because he is now so skinny and pale.
The fish still eats but far less vigorously and now has taken to resting on the bottom sometimes, especially in the mornings (energy and the amount he feeds seems 'up' in the evenings).
I usually feed a homemade diet of 50% Mysis, 15% brine, 20% mixed Nori, 5% bloodworm, 5% shelled peas, 5% chopped clam. This is soaked in Garlic Xtreme.
Temporarily (last 3-4 weeks) the food changed to 40% Mysis, 40% Brine, 10% Nori, 5% clam, 5% bloodworm and no Garlic Xtreme. I changed back to my old mix yesterday but could this be the reason?
<Not likely>
2 weeks ago when I noticed the problem I increased the amount of food going in and made sure the angel fed by picking from the feeding net. Despite eating less vigorously the fish still seems to get a fair amount down each time.
I worry that the fish has a parasite/worm or perhaps that it needs some kind of vitamin supplement or sponge to pick at. I fear that the fish is not going to last much longer in its current state as it is becoming so skinny and weak despite retaining interest in food. The holes don't seem to be worsening.
Tank parameters are all normal and well within limits so water quality shouldn't be an issue (I do 10-20% water changes each week too). No fish chase him and doesn't seem unduly stressed by anything in particular. All other fish (including a tang and a butterfly) are seemingly doing fine.
<The Tang, what species? May be harassing the angel>
What can I do to help him and what do you think the issue could be?
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/EmpAHlthF5.htm
and the linked files above>
Any help would be much appreciated....Thank you so much in advance!
<Keep reading. Bob Fenner> 
Re: Emperor angel variety of symptoms – 2/15/13

Thanks for the advice but unfortunately the angelfish died soon after I sent the email.
Kind Regards
Wayne Jackson
<Aye ya. Hopeful that you'll read where you were referred ahead of trying another Emperor, Pomacanthus. BobF>

Re: Emperor Angel blotchy, not eating while other fish are fine.      2/10/13
Please help!
Hi Bob
Thanks so much for the advice. I stopped the medication and continued with the water changes, raising my salt slowly. Its about 1,023 now.
<Ah, good>
The Angel started eating again and he's colour is returning,
<Even better>
He doesn't eat ravenously so I'm still wary, but he's eating his favourite food. (Nori dipped in Angelixir)You asked about the Queen Angel - she didn't show the same signs of illness as the other and I've never noticed any aggression between the two. They are happy to eat the same piece of Nori side by side - but don't worry, the bigger tank is on its way.
Two days ago however my second blue cheek goby died and I found an Isopod about the size of a lady bug on him. Could this be the cause of death for all the previous fish (small Naso tang, bicolour angel, neon gobies and blue cheek gobies)?
<Mmm, not likely at all; no>
 Could it also be what was bothering the Emperor?
 Its obviously out of the tank now but I don't know whether I need to worry about more being in the tank and whether I should do anything about it.
Thank you again!
<I suspect you only have the one Isopod that was in the system. See WWM re these pests. BobF><<RMF couldn't find the prev. corr. and pic... lost>>

Help! Soon-to-be-Finless Emperor Angel! 8/28/12
Crew, I have read through a bunch of the disease and medication FAQs, but with my Emperor Angel's condition deteriorating rapidly and unable to find a close match to my circumstances, I've decided to write directly. I have had the Emperor Angel in question in my 180 gallon tank with a Blue Throat Trigger, a Porcupine Puffer, and a Dogface Puffer for about 6 months. The tank is about 11 years old and runs at a specific gravity of 1.022,
<... I'd raise this... keep near 1.025, 1.026>

  temp. of 78-79 F, ammonia between 0 and .25,
<Anything other than 0.0 is toxic, debilitating... You may have too little biological filtration to accommodate the puffer feeding/wastes>
 nitrite 0, nitrate 20-30,
<I'd keep under 20 ppm>

 and a pH of 8.4. I do a water change of about 40-50 gallons every other week and run a wet dry filter along with about 50-60 lbs. of live rock in the tank and 1.5-2 inches of sand.
<I'd increase this substantially. See WWM re>
The whole lot are fed a rotating diet of Angel Formula, Formula Two, frozen krill, and Spectrum pellets; all doused with garlic, vitamin C, and an HUFA supplement.
On to the drama at hand. The angel has had 2 battles now with cloudy pectoral fins, which I chalked up to a water change reminder and the issue seemed to resolve itself. However, the most recent bout has gotten quite out of hand quite quickly. Over just a few days, one pectoral fin has now eroded down so that there is only about a centimeter left and is completely red/bloody and inflamed looking. When the fin first showed signs of turning red about 2 days ago I began feeding Metronidazole and Focus,
<Of no use... the issue/cause is not pathogenic; but environmental>

 but it seems to have done little to help. Now this morning I turn the light on to find that the other fin that was previously full, but slightly cloudy, has begun to recede rapidly and turn red as well.
None of the tank mates seem the least bit effected by whatever is ailing my angel. He still eats well, but is maybe getting slightly more fussy (though I did just put a bunch of nasty stuff on his food those days). He is swimming normally and begging for food. I have seen him scratch only twice in 3 days of observation. His breathing is a little more rapid, but I wouldn't say that he is in the respiratory distress that I have seen associated with severe gill parasite infestations. Any guess as to the root cause?
<As stated... nitrogenous waste poisoning>

 Would you advise to continue feeding the antibiotics, leave him where he's at, and see if there is improvement or remove the Emperor to quarantine and treat with something different?
<I'd move this fish to a better world, water quality... IF you don't have this as a possibility, DO what you can ASAP to improve water quality... add ozone, more substrate (DSB), a sump/refugium... See WWM re Ammonia, Nitrate...>
 From what I've read, there probably isn't a silver bullet for this, but I'd like to stop it in its tracks right away if at all possible...before he has no fins left
Thanks so much for all the help you provide,
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Help! Soon-to-be-Finless Emperor Angel! 8/28/12

Hi Crew! In case it's helpful in answering the question I sent in yesterday, attached are some photos of my Angelfish.
<I see these>
Sorry, I know they're not great...the bugger would not hold still (which I guess is a good thing in an ailing fish). As an update, his worst fin is not as bloody as it was, but that could be because there's not much fin left. The rays are down to nubs and the fin between the nubs is gone. The other fin looks to be about the same as yesterday. He is still eating and swimming. Breathing is somewhat labored. He has started scratching more.
Any advice you can provide is greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance for your help!
<Same as before... BobF>

Re: Help! Soon-to-be-Finless Emperor Angel!  8/28/12
Thanks so much for your prompt response Mr. Fenner! It pains me so much, because I know the water hasn't been 100% and I've been trying for a while to correct it to make this Angel happy. I purchased a sump double the size of my current and a skimmer rated to well over my tank size and both are sitting next to my aquarium waiting for the builder to finish my new stand, so that I can fit everything underneath and then fill it up with fresh, sparkling water from the RODI unit I recently bought (not that I haven't switched to RODI water already). All of this for the fish that seems like it may not even make it to the glorious day of installation!
<Ahh, do feed sparingly while waiting here>
 Of course, I know everyone will be better for it in the long run, but I'd like to see the Angel reap the benefits. I think I will try and move him to a QT where I will have time to manage the water quality better until the DT gets sorted out. I just don't have time for massive water changes on the 180 with my work schedule, unfortunately.
Thanks for your help!
<Certainly welcome. BobF>

Emperor Angel, hlth.     8/11/12
Hello -
<Hi there>
Thank you so much for taking my question. We (my husband's hobby really) have a 125 gallon saltwater tank.
<Mmm, will need more space for this species>
The tank includes lots of live rock, an emperor angel, a fox face, a powder blue tang, a yellow tang, a humbug and blue wrasse (the fish are all approximately 8 yrs old).
<The angel, more stunted>
My husband performs about a 40% water change every month.
<I'd change a smaller portion once a week... Have him search WWM re>

About 5 months ago, we introduced a lion fish and a puffer
<... there's not enough room for these here>
into the tank and within 5 days the lion fish died, without any signs of sickness. Two weeks later the puffer died. The puffer showed sickness, by scratching against the live rocks...and we gave him a freshwater bath and quarantined him, but he died anyway. It was at this time that we realized our nitrates were off the chart!
We have worked diligently to get the nitrates under control, increasing the water change frequency and removing most of the gravel.
<There are a few approaches to NO3 limitation... posted/archived on WWM>
The current problem is with our Emperor Angel. He/She is 8 years old.
Absolutely beautiful and the commander of the tank. She is a "barker".
Sometimes she barks so loudly, it sounds like someone is breaking into the house.
 Anyway, back to the problem, last week the angel stopped eating.
<The effect of long-term crowding...>

She goes to the food, but it's almost as if she doesn't see it. She smells it, goes to it, but will not bite it. Also, Her left gill is "breathing" heavily...and sometimes opens so widely you can see inside. I would say almost one half inch wide. Very red inside the gill.
Her color is remains extremely vivid. She is still beautiful and appears to be maintaining her weight. And swims.
We have looked at her in a dark tank with a flashlight to check for velvet.
No spots whatsoever. No signs of HLLE. However, 2 days ago we noticed a protruding anus. But today it seems to be going in and out.
Last night we introduced 3 units of Chemi pure; and trace elements today.
<The carbon/resin product will remove most of the trace...>
We have tempted her with shrimp, but she will not bite.
<I'd feed Spectrum (pellets) as a stock diet... but there is only one real solution... a larger world>

At times, she reacts as if she is blind. Usually when my husband walks into the room, she comes immediately to that side of the tank. But now, she doesn't seem to know that he is even in the room. And, sometimes she swims into the other fish; she no longer barks nor seems to have any command of the tank. However, the other fish continue to stay out of her way.
I hope you can us. This is breaking my heart! There is something wrong and I can't help her.
Please forgive me if this has been asked before, but I have searched diligently using your search options and cannot find an answer to this exact question.
<Have you read the article on this species, the FAQs files posted on WWM?
Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel    8/12/12

Yes. I have read many of the articles on WWM regarding this species.
<Ahh, then you know this system was under-sized>
I have also Googled my problem on WWM, and that's where I found the HLLE and velvet ideas. But I cannot find any exact matches to this particular problem. Is there a specific article that you think I have overlooked?
Please direct me.
<The central, real (root) issue is environmental.
.. the too tiny world, high NO3 consequent w/ volume... Need to improve water quality overall... Dilution through a bigger tank, more/better filtration (DSB, macro-algae culture, RDP refugium...) many more possibilities... See WWM re Nitrates, marine... BobF>
Re: Emperor Angel    8/12/12

Hi Bob -
Okay, NOW, I have read the FAQ sheet.
I believe you are telling me that our tank is extremely overcrowded and that's why we can't get the nitrates under control. And just because all these fish have lived for 8 years in this 125 gallon tank doesn't mean it will continue to be a great environment as they grow. Am I reading you correctly?
We have done everything we know to do to get the nitrates under control; and they are still off the chart. We set up another refugium (have two now)...but it seems that you are telling me that until we move some of the fish out, our current environment will become toxic for them all.
<Mmm, no... much can be done w/ the refugiums... do you have substantial fine substrate? DSB/s?>
Thanks for any additional advice.
<Welcome. BobF>
Re: Emperor Angel    8/12/12

Sorry, Bob...I responded twice to your previous email and then saw this email.
Thanks for all your help!
<Welcome. B>
Re: Emperor Angel    8/12/12

Hi Bob -
Based on your response, we have decided to downsize the amount of fish in the tank. We called our "supplier" and he is willing to take the Foxface.
And this move will most likely happen tomorrow.
However, as you know, downsizing does not happen overnight.
So, it seems that you are saying that barring any infections on the Angel, she is just naturally responding to a too small environment.
So, until we can completely downsize, is there a temporary "fix" we can do for her, or do you think she will make it through this? She continues to not eat and she continues to breathe heavily. But looks good and swims.
Thanks again for all your advice.

White splotches/Pomacanthus Health 7/9/12
WWM Crew,
Over the past week my adult Emperor Angel has been showing white splotches.
It starts out really bad in the morning and fades over the day. It looks a little like Marine Velvet but no other symptoms are present, (fast breathing, loss of appetite, flashing).  As per the forum that I am part of it does seem like the splotches are part of the scales and not sitting on top of the scales.  Morning coloration is normal that the colors are subdued early then as the day progresses they become much more vivid. Also none of my other fish are showing any signs or issues. I have not witnessed any aggression other then the normal little spats, instigated by the Emperor.
The Emperor is also suffering from HLLE.  This happened as he was changing from juvenile to adult coloration.  I know that its pretty severe and I have not seen any recovery at all in the affected areas.  This was my fault for not knowing the best way to feed the proper nutrition.  Now that I know better I am doing my best to provide the best possible care for him.
<Yes, it appears this fish has been lacking a good diet for quite some time.>
I feed Spectrum pellets soaked in AngeLixer and vitamins every morning.
Everyday a new algae sheet is put in the tank,
<Will get more nutrition from Spectrum pellets than the algae sheet.>
 depending on if it is eaten or not I put a 2nd sheet in when I get home from work. Then in the evening I feed alternating, Mysis, Angel Formula, Emerald Entree and chopped clams. Then every once in a while I will throw in a piece of raw shrimp for my puffer.
<The main diet should be the Spectrum pellets, very nutritional and is the only food I feed my fish.  If not already, I would use Selcon as my vitamin source until this fish regains it's health.  After that, the pellets are all that is necessary for all but for the puffer.>
Since this issue started I have changed to feeding the Angel Formula every day. 
The tank has been running since March 2010.
I have a 265 gallon FOWLR display with about 47 gal. in the sump.  
Temp 79.2
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate ~0 (slightly darker then 0)
Water changes of 15 gallons happen every week, water is mixed throughout the week prior to the change.  I am using RO water with Instant Ocean Crystal Reef salt.
<I'm not a fan of Instant Ocean, too many reports of inconsistency.>
Live stock includes, (In the order they were introduced into the aquarium)
1 - Fiji Blue Devil Damsel
1 - Vlamingi Tang
1 - Blue Angel 6"-7"
1 - Emperor angel 6"-7"
1 - Dogface Puffer
1 - Banded Hawkfish
1 - Sailfin Tang
4 - Blue/Green Chromis (down from the original 7, these were purchased about 5 weeks ago.  I don't know what is happening to them.  As far as I can tell all my other livestock is leaving them alone.)
<Hard to believe the Blue Devil is not harassing them.>
Please let me know If you need any more information. 
<What are the dimensions of your tank, and size of the tangs and puffer.>
Attached is a picture taken at 7am just after I turned on the lights for the morning feeding.
Thank you,
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Kevin G

Re: White splotches <<>> **
White splotches/Pomacanthus Health 7/9/12

WWM Crew,
Over the past week my adult Emperor Angel has been showing white splotches.
It starts out really bad in the morning and fades over the day. It looks a little like Marine Velvet but no other symptoms are present, (fast breathing, loss of appetite, flashing).  As per the forum that I am part of it does seem like the splotches are part of the scales and not sitting on top of the scales.  Morning coloration is normal that the colors are subdued early then as the day progresses they become much more vivid. Also none of my other fish are showing any signs or issues. I have not witnessed any aggression other then the normal little spats, instigated by the Emperor.
The Emperor is also suffering from HLLE.  This happened as he was changing from juvenile to adult coloration.  I know that its pretty severe and I have not seen any recovery at all in the affected areas.  This was my fault for not knowing the best way to feed the proper nutrition.  Now that I know better I am doing my best to provide the best possible care for him.
<Yes, it appears this fish has been lacking a good diet for quite some time.>
*Actually my emperor has been like this for over a year now eating the spectrum pellets as the main
dietary staple.* 
<<Ah good>>
I feed Spectrum pellets soaked in AngeLixer and vitamins every morning.
Everyday a new algae sheet is put in the tank,
<Will get more nutrition from Spectrum pellets than the algae sheet.>
*I include the algae sheet to provide something for the fish to snack on throughout the day*
<<I see>>
depending on if it is eaten or not I put a 2nd sheet in when I get home from work. Then in the evening I feed alternating, Mysis, Angel Formula, Emerald Entree and chopped clams. Then every once in a while I will throw in a piece of raw shrimp for my puffer.
<The main diet should be the Spectrum pellets, very nutritional and is the only food I feed my fish.  If not already, I would use Selcon as my vitamin source until this fish regains it's health.  After that, the pellets are all that is necessary for all but for the puffer.>
*Main diet has been the Spectrum pellets for over a year after I had issues feeding just frozen foods.
The vitamins that I am soaking them in are Brightwell Aquatics Vitamarin-M.
 As well as Brightwell AngeLixer, a sponge supplement.
The puffer is being fed Mysis and chopped clams 4-5 times a week*
<<Very nice>>
Since this issue started I have changed to feeding the Angel Formula every day. 
The tank has been running since March 2010.
I have a 265 gallon FOWLR display with about 47 gal. in the sump. 
Temp 79.2
Salinity 1.024
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate ~0 (slightly darker then 0)
*Oops,   pH is 7.9 to 8.1 through the day*
Water changes of 15 gallons happen every week, water is mixed throughout the week prior to the change.  I am using RO water with Instant Ocean Crystal Reef salt.
<I'm not a fan of Instant Ocean, too many reports of inconsistency.>
*I figured that since I am only FOWLR the issues shouldn't be as bad.  What would you recommend?*
<<See here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/synthsaltmixes.htm
and the linked files above>>
Live stock includes, (In the order they were introduced into the aquarium)
1 - Fiji Blue Devil Damsel *2.5"*
1 - Vlamingi Tang *8"-10"*
1 - Blue Angel 6"-7"
1 - Emperor angel 6"-7"
1 - Dogface Puffer  *6"*
1 - Banded Hawkfish  *5"*
1 - Sailfin Tang  *4.5"-5.5"*
4 - Blue/Green Chromis    *0.75"- 1"*   (down from the original 7, these were purchased about 5 weeks ago.  I don't know what is happening to them.  As far as I can tell all my other livestock is leaving them alone.)
<Hard to believe the Blue Devil is not harassing them.>
* I have not witnessed any aggression. But I know that there is a real possibility of aggression from the damsel.  The only aggression that I have ever witnessed was from the puffer when the Chromis were first introduced.  I have not witnessed anything since.*
Please let me know If you need any more information. 
<What are the dimensions of your tank, and size of the tangs and puffer.>
*See above I updated the sizes.*
*Tank dimensions 84"L x 24"W x 30"D*
<<All right>>
Attached is a picture taken at 7am just after I turned on the lights for the morning feeding.
*This morning I found that my emperor has Ich now so either the HLLE is compromising his immune system now or the new issue is creating more of an issue. When I get home tonight my QT tank should be ready to go.  Let me know what you think.*
<<Mmm, time to be very proactive. Are you familiar w/ the use of Quinine compounds in fish treatment for protozoan parasite matters?  Are you sure this is Crypt? Strange the Tangs aren't first affected. Please read here:
and the related FAQs above. Bob Fenner>>
Thank you,
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
<<Oh! Thought I'd originally responded to this. Will forward to James for his input. B>>
*Thanks Again*
Kevin G
Re: White splotches     7/9/12

I have nothing to add.
<Thank you James. B>

Re: White splotches... Emperor Angel  7/9/12
**Why do you say that it is strange that the Tangs are not the first affected?
<? As the group, Acanthuroids are most susceptible>
I am not familiar with Quinine compounds.  I was reading through the FAQ's that you suggested, and I do see that it is recommended above using copper.  However I did not see anywhere as to why it is recommended and any products that may contain it.
<... see the linked files above>
 I will have to wait until I get home to do more research on Quinine, but if you have any more information or links to information I would greatly appreciate it.
I am fairly certain that it is Ich/Crypt?
<....... no way to really tell w/o sampling and microscopic examination>
  I have never had any issue with Ich in my SW tank.  While I was into FW I had a few bouts with it.  The white spots are covering the body of the fish, I do think that it is Ich.
Also I never QT any of my fish personally, they have all been "QT" (I use this term loosely in this instance) and the LFS that I buy from.  I have a spare 46 gallon tank that will be running and all should be good with it when I get home.  However I know that the only way to completely get this out of the tank is to remove all the live stock and leave the DT fallow for at least 8 weeks.  If I go this route I will need to pick up more tanks to run the medication in.
Thanks again for helping me resolve this issue.**
Kevin G
<Mmm, what we're here for. Cheers, BobF>

Poisoning. Cyanide... Emperor Angel poss.    3/15/12
Hi Crew,<Hi Adam, Jordan here.> I have in QT an Emperor Angel and two Ocellaris clownfish. The clownfish are fine but the Emperor has grey blotches all over his body and is in a bad way. I bought him very cheaply from a store and now I wonder if he was poisoned when caught.<It's possible but cyanide caught fish are usually immaculate looking because they are so easy to collect. The collector can simply grab them.> I purchased him in Singapore. What are the signs of poisoning?<Refusal to eat and knowing where the fish was collected can help. I believe cyanide is still used in parts of Indonesia and the Philippines.> Read more here:
 Regards, Adam.

Emperor Angel. Hlth., no useful data or rdg.      3/14/12
Hi, I have a 4inch changeling Emperor Angel in quarantine where he has been for about a week. I noticed several blotches about 3-4mm on his sides so I gave him a fresh water bath two days ago. This seemed to help and they were gone yesterday but today are more numerous. He is still eating and breathing rate is normal. I use sea water which I think is fresh as many coral fish live in it,
 however I purchased him in a shop so maybe he had an infection. The sea water had been left idle for a month which as you know should have killed any Ich, Velvet, Brooklynella etc. Any ideas what it could be please?
Regards, Adam.
<.... read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/EmpAHlthF5.htm
and all the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Please Help diagnose Rocky!    3/5/12
Rocky is an Emperor Angelfish from the Christmas Islands.  He is about 6 inches.  He eats like a pig, and doesn't really bother anyone.  His diet consists of Vitamin Enhanced Mysis Shrimp and Krill, and strips of seaweed.  This morning I noticed that one of his eyes was cloudy.  The entire eye was cloudy, and it looked like it was even cloudier in the center of his eye.  I also noticed on the other side of him that his one fin was frayed please look at the pictures.  On the side with a frayed fin I noticed a small white spike coming out on him (See attached pic).   He had no issues in quarantine. He is still eating today.  I am thinking that I should take him out of the tank.  Give him an hour long formalin bath,
<Not this long... at any real concentration... and if any, with mechanical aeration>
and place him into quarantine.  Thoughts?
<Quarantine is likely to be of more stress than not here. This fish appears to be overly so already... and the symptoms point to possible shipping  damage, Lymphocystis, fin breakage as expressions>
 Any ideas what this may be?  Is
it possible something just stressed him out overnight?
<What else is in this system stock-wise?>
  Last night when I came home he was no where to be seen.  Normally he lingers on the top of the tank, or by the hammer coral at night.
<Oh! This Euphyllia might well be mal-affecting the Pomacanthid>
  I guess yesterday he went into
the rock work, and maybe got scratched up?
<Another possibility>
 Tank is 125
<Too small>
 (Yes I know he will need a bigger tank.  He will be in a 300 gallon by the end of the year).
Parameters are all within acceptable ranges.  Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0 ph 8.2 Alk 9 CA 425 MG 1350.
<... I'd be running a unit or two of Polyfilter in your water flow path... using Spectrum pelleted food... And reading here:
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>


Re: Please Help diagnose Rocky! Emperor A.      3/6/12
 Thanks for the response.  I ended up having a friend come over, and we talked it out, and concluded that Rocky needed a nice little cavern. 
So I rearranged the rock work in that section, and he has a pretty sizable area that he can sleep in, and hang out in.  I moved the Euphyllia much higher, and he is nowhere near this.    This morning his eye was not cloudy. 
<Good news>
There still seemed to be a white dot the size of a pin head in the center of his eye, but it was not cloudy.  He doesn't like spectrum food, but he does love his algae, and vitamin enriched frozen.  He has eaten spectrum in the past, but he is not overly crazy about it.  The only guy that is really a pain to Rocky is the rabbit fish.  Rocky chases him out of his corner, and the rabbit fish flares his dorsal fin. 
<Dangerous, venomous... I'd move the Siganid>
Sometimes they just hang out with each other.  My rabbit fish is weird as he has a tendency to chase my Grey Head Wrasse around.  At night the Rabbit fish sleeps in my devil hand, and it seems Rocky is in the cavern by himself.    A little more history on Rocky.  I had him quarantined, and fattened up before he went into the tank.  He did receive a formalin bath before being put back into the tank for about 50 minutes with aeration, and a heater.  His eye came about a week after he was put in the main tank.    I checked Ammonia, NO2 today and they were all zero.  I read through the link you gave me and saw nothing regarding the poly filter.  What is the rationale here?
<Lest there be some material that this could remove that is trouble here...>
  I found the link on Lymphocystis, and I am glad that this can go away.  Let me know if you recommend anything else.  As an FYI the tank is mixed reef dominated mainly
by sps corals.  I do have Purigen in the sump, and NO2 reactor
<This last might be a factor as well>
Would the Purigen remove any of the pollutants that you're concerned about?
<Yes; could>
Thanks in advance for all your help.  Many a fish have been saved by your website.
<And you, BobF>

Emperor Angel, hlth.  12/7/11
Hi there, Guess who's back once again at your mercy? Yes Jim again.  I have a Emperor Angel for probably three months. He blotches and spots a lot and is probably 75% changed. I don't see normal Ick signs. I am starting to worry about him thinking putting him in quarantine, but not sure to treat him for.  Is this normal when there changing or does he have a disease?
<This fish is very stressed by something... water quality, nutrition, some tankmate/s bullying?>
He eats fine and shows no signs of stress. No other fish show any signs.
Sent some pictures. Thanks, Jim
<You don't supply sufficient input, information to respond substantively.
Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/EmpAHlthF5.htm
and all the linked files above. Bob Fenner>


Re: Emperor Angel 12/7/11
Hi Bob, Unfortunately I think he stressed from my larger blueface.
<Ahh, too likely so>
 He is in a 180. He chases him away off and on , but is not hurting him at all.
<Mmm, psychological/social health is a reality, as real as any other type of disease>
 I know they say only one large angel in each tank. I am hopefully going to get a 265 off craigslist in the next few days. I love them both and really don't want to get rid of him. I see several angels together in big tanks all the time.
<Yes... there are indeed service companies that crowd quite a few in large systems... dividing territoriality, aggression it seems. Doesn't happen in the wild I assure you>
So why cant I do it?
<You only have two and the size/volume of the system>
 Do you think I should put him in quarantine until I get a bigger tank?
<Somewhere else, yes>
 I have probably 300lbs of live rock with lots of hiding places in my 180.
<Mmm, I'd actually remove about half of this... make "bommies" instead of a wall... to allow swimming space, more water, and chances for all to get out of visual/sight of each other. Understanzee?>
 Nitrate, ammonia, and nitrite out at zero. Salt gravity 1.025, and temp at 80. Love you guys, Jim
<Thank you Jim. BobF>
Re: Emperor Angel   12/8/11

Hi Bob, Thanks so much for advice. I will remove alot <no such word> of rock tomorrow and put it in my quarantine. I hope the hypo salinity well not kill it.
<Me too>
 I have one more question. I have a green mandarin that been thriving. Do I need to get rid of him because I am removing a lot of my rock? He feeds off the rocks and eats Mysis, and hoping someday Spectrum pellets. 
<There should be enough production from the remaining quantity of LR and if the sump is on the same system... it will continue to supply foods as well.

Emperor Angel/s dead without apparent cause   7/11/11
Hello WWM crew.
I know that a specific answer for my question is difficult but at least I want to try.
In the last 2 years I have tried to introduce 2 different juvenile emperor angels in my tank, the first a year ago, and the other just recently.
Both have died without warning after a week in the tank. Both did not show any signal of disease and both showed a very good behavior. No disease signs (body in perfect shape), nobody harassing them and eating well, no hiding.
The parameters are good; the food has been very varied (frozen mysis, Cyclops, prepared food, pellets, tlf algae and many small critters in the live rock).
The tank is a FOWLR 135 gal and the other fishes are 2 Firefish, a royal gramma, a flame angel fish, a hippo tang, and a fire and cleaner shrimp.
Most fishes I have introduced had survived with the exception of a couple of cardinal fish (I also have had very bad luck with these guys and I don't plan to get more until captive breed are available in my country).
I am considering the same with the angel imperator, no to try more before I can gain considerable more experience and know more about the possible cause of their dead.
Thank you so much for your time and help.
Juan Carlos
<Mmm, the first explanation that comes to mind is either just "bad luck" w/ the two specimens, or trouble from their origination... bad handling, perhaps collection... I would try another supplier, and make sure of getting a specimen of optimum initial size (3-4" length). The fact that the other fishes you list have done well points to other factor/s than environment, and that the specimens fed well on a variety of foods... Have your supplier look to order your specimen from Quality Marine if you're in the US or TMC in the UK... Oh, eventually (a year or two) you'll need a larger system. Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angel dead without apparent cause   7/11/11
Thank you so much for your answer.
<You're welcome>
I was feeling bad for failing to keep this beautiful fish again.
Now that you mention, all the fishes have been purchased from a Quality Marine supplier with the exception of the hippo tang, the cardinals and the emperor (the last two without any luck). The before mentioned makes me realize that getting the fishes from a reputable source is half of the recipe for success.
<Sometimes 100%>
Unfortunately the only store that imports fishes from Quality Marine to my country does it with very low frequency.
<... .sk, Slovakia? Have them try the London principal location of Tropical Marine Centre:
Comparative... very fine folks, livestock and drygoods>
Thanks Again Bob, your help and advice was very valuable to me.
<Nos vemos mi amigo. BobF>

Emperor Angelfish with bum pectoral fin   2/17/11
Hi all, you are my go-to people for aquarium info. Thanks for offering your expertise to those of us still fledging. I have searched for info on this problem but not found a situation exactly like this, and it seems to be worsening rather quickly so here I am - sorry if this is a repeat.
Our Emperor has been with us for about a year now, obtained as a juvenile about 3" or so and now transitioning and almost at full adult coloration, maybe 5" or so. He has been healthy, and was housed in a 50g tank
<Too small a volume>

with a Foxface and yellow tang (both with us also for over a year) until the first week of Jan this year, at which point we placed them into a 150g that had been circulating for at least a week with live rock, 3 emperor 400 filters (when the fish were placed into the new tank, the old filter pads from their 50g tank went with them), and a protein skimmer. The entire time they've been in the new tank, the water parameters have been good (ammonia 0, nitrite the same, nitrate never registered a change from baseline) except for possibly pH, which is registering as darker than 8.4, as it always had in the old tank as well. SG 1.024. These fish have been living for 1.5 months with additional livestock in the 150g: 3 pink-tipped mushroom anemones, a yellow-tailed blue damsel, 3 common snails and a small diadem Dottyback which had been quarantined in 20g tanks for at least a month prior to introducing them into the main tank. We home school, and my 10 yr old daughter has been feeding 2 different frozen sponge-containing angel foods, formula 2 (pellet and frozen), seaweed strips less often than she knows she should but still at least once a week, mysis shrimp, and recently began some gelled Cyclops. The tank does have some green and bright purplish-pink algal growth, and some teeny coiled white snail-like organisms and elongated teeny creeping pinkish organisms thriving on the wall.
<So far, so good>
All of the fish seemed to thrive in the new tank - their colors brightened and they were active and eating well and their personalities really shone.
Until the last few days, when we noticed the emperor scratching along rocks (he would typically brush up against some rocks slightly while zipping around the tank anyway; he's just doing it more, and more vigorously, and it is now definitely scratching of his face and anterior body) and hiding among them instead of swimming in the open and greeting us as he normally would. He has faded white spots mostly on his head, but these disappear at night and change during the day (sounds from other posts as if this is an angel stress response). His left pectoral fin is quite frayed, with whitish edges. The fleshy base of the fin itself appears swollen and pinkish to red (the normal color is quite dark blue/black) on the inside of the fold (between the fin and body). The opposite pectoral fin is also somewhat frayed but not as severely and the base looks pretty normal. Both fins have some loss of transparency and have a milky white stippling. I just looked again, and his eyes also have some cloudy spots on them (not the whole eye). I say that it is going rather quickly because that fin is being eaten rather fast, and he is obviously not comfortable, now spending some time hovering near the top of the tank particularly where the fine air bubbles are (though his position is upright and solid).
Our concern is bacterial and parasitic infection at this point,
<Not likely>
but how can we approach this without an active QT (I know, I feel the kick in the butt)? And, what did I miss in quarantining my others or in husbandry? For now, I have added Selcon and garlic guard and we are offering more seaweed and doing a partial water change, awaiting your response. Thank you.
Lisa K
<May be summat from the rocks, perhaps (though doubtful) the Dottyback causing stress, biting... I'd do what you can to bolster all the fishes immune systems through food supplementation: http://wetwebmedia.com/vitaminmarfaqs.htm
and possibly add to chemical filtration in your hang on the back power filters. I would not otherwise remove or "treat" the angel. Bob Fenner>
Re: Emperor Angelfish with bum pectoral fin  2/18/11

Hi Bob (and whoever is there today), just a quick note to thank you for your advice, but to sadly report that we returned home this evening after a few hours out to find the emperor dead on the bottom of the tank.
We didn't see
him eat today, but his behavior didn't differ that much from yesterday, so we were content to give it more time. Guess nothing we would have done would have changed the course today, or yesterday.
<Nothing. Agreed>
Any benefit to a necropsy at this point?
<Perhaps to satisfy your curiosity. Again, my best guess (though that's all it is) is that this fish either ate or less likely physically contacted "something" quite noxious... I'd expect to see that its gut is vacuous/empty and cells making up the lining syncytial>
I don't have ability to send in samples, but could do gross assessment. And, I'm not a fish vet...:(
<Mmm... there are a few reference books... Ed Noga, the second ed. if avail. rather than the first... the fish/specimen just refrigerated in the meanwhile... NOT frozen or otherwise preserved... BobF>
Re: Emperor Angelfish with bum pectoral fin
BobF, I had opened him up last night, and you were spot on - the stomach and cecae were empty and injected, and that was the only gross abnormality I could find without knowing more. There was pink, slightly frothy fluid in the cavity. He was in great body condition, and the gills, air bladder, etc
all appeared normal. I can't even imagine what he got into, or what we fed him, that was noxious, but will do some sleuthing. And I'd love to have a copy of the book, so thanks for the recommendation. Thanks for "being there" as we lost our beloved emperor, and helping me sort things out. Lisa
<Am glad to help... and Lisa, I have both ed.s of Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment, and though expensive, this is the single most complete, accurate work of its kind presently... I use mine at least weekly. Cheers, BobF, oh, who was Ed Noga's "dorm mate" at last year's Fish Disease Conference at UNE... and will be there again in Aug.>

Emperor angel Blotchy  1/24/11
I have notice that my emperor has blotchy white patches all over his body and head.
<I see this>
I have read many post and everyone seems to have their own ideal on what it could be, do you guys have any personal experience on what the blotchy patches are?
<Indication that this fish is "not happy, well">
He is eating new life spectrum pellets, no cloudy eyes, and seems to be the boss of the tank (180 gallon). my ammonia, nitrate and nitrite is at zero
<How is the NO3 being rendered zero?>
and ph is 8.2-8.3. Thanks Terry
<Again, "something" is not right w/ this fish's environment... chemically, physically and/or biologically. What are the other livestock? Is BGA present? There are many possibilities. Bob Fenner> 


Re: Emperor angel Blotchy 1/24/11
Thanks for your speedy reply! In the tank I have a 3-4" fox Face magnificent, 2" Flame angel, two Clowns, 2-3" Blue jaw trigger, cleaner shrimp, crabs and snails.
<Could be the Siganid, or Trigger... are harassing the Pomacanthus>
I went this morning and bought A new test kit ( ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph), my levels are zero with ph at 8.2-8.3. My salinity is 1.025, my temp stays at 78 degrees. I have a reef octopus 200 extreme with a 18 watt uv sterilizer. A few 360 degree rotating power heads. No other fish are showing any signs if stress. I have no signs of red slime or any alga blooms. I have some live rock with mushroom growing. The only thing I could think about is a few of my live rocks had green hair alga growing and the Angel and Fox face cleaned house, could he be upset because of that?
<Could be something eaten, or again, the two squaring off>
I see no signs of fighting. Any advice on were to go from here would be appreciate.
<I suggest careful observation. BobF>
Re: Emperor angel Blotchy 1/24/11
Thanks I'll set up a video camera while I'm at work and see if I can catch something.
Thanks Terry
<Cheers, B>

Angelfishes for  Marine Aquariums
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