FAQs on Goldfish Parasites

FAQs on Goldfish Parasites

Bowls make goldfish sick and sad.
Give them more room and they'll be glad!
- Sara M., a poetess, and she know a this

goldfish mystery illness (RMF, anything else?)<Just to agree w/ you B> 3/13/16
Hello! I am truly hoping you can help me to solve the mystery illness of my beloved goldfish, Clementine and Jujuby. I've read through all the boards and previously answered questions, and can't seem to find a case like mine.
<Oh?>
My goldfish are two fantails in a 29-gallon-long tank.
<Just about big enough.>
Water parameters are consistently ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates between 0-20, pH 7.2, gH between 75 and 150, kH around 40.
<All sounds fine. Would also check temperature though. Fancy Goldfish truly appreciate a bit of warmth, certainly not less than 18C/64F, and ideally around 22C/72F.>
I do a 20-25% water change once a week. I feed Spectrum small sinking pellet goldfish food, plus shelled peas about twice per week.
<Sounds good.>
Jujuby has been ill for a couple of years at this point- she has always had trouble with keeping herself upright, and always has clamped fins.
<Clamped fins unusually indicate stress in fish, whether psychological or physiological. To be fair, fancy Goldfish are sometimes so deformed (their funny shapes are deformities, if you think about it) that they sometimes unable to swim properly. This is usually down to a problem with the relative positions of their swim bladders and guts, so when they become constipated, which happens easily on flake alone, they start listing like an unstable boat.>
Other than that, she eats well, and does not gasp at the surface or flash.
I almost never see her poop, which troubles me- I suspect she has fishy diarrhea.
<Constipation. Diarrhoea is when the faeces are loose and copious, relatively unlikely to be noticed in fish given their aquatic environment. Constipation is where the faeces are slow to emerge, and often (in fish) take the form of long brown strings hanging from the vent of the fish.>
Clementine was the healthy one until this past fall, when she developed white bumps on her fins- several on her tail, a few on her dorsal fin, and even a couple on her body near her dorsal fin. I noticed Jujuby seems to have these spots, too. They are definitely not ich (though I did treat for ich just to be safe)- they don't resemble salt crystals, they almost look like they're growing out from the inside of her tail.
<Curious. My gut feeling is something viral, like Fish Pox. Not treatable, but usually goes away when the source of stress is removed. Some vets suggest Fish Pox is extremely rarely seen in fish, others that it's pretty common and latent in most specimens! There's also Coldwater Ick, which looks very like Fish Pox and completely unlikely the Ick seen in tropical fish. It can be treated in the same way as regular Ick though, but with the proviso you MUST warm the aquarium up to at least 20C, ideally 22C, before treating. That's because the Coldwater Ick cysts will take a long time to burst at cold temperatures, and they must burst if the Ick/Whitespot medication is going to kill the free-living stage in the parasite's life cycle. If you don't warm the water, it'll take weeks for the cysts to burst, by which time the active chemicals in the medication will have been metabolised by the fish filter bacteria. Make sense?>
Clementine's poops are often stringy or zigzaggy, or both, suggesting an internal infection.
<See above; this symptom could be constipation. Would make the usual reminder: all-brown faeces are constipation, but if the faeces are pale, even glassy in places, then that indicates the gut is shedding a lot of mucous. That in turn tends to mean there's a parasitic infection of the gut, because the parasites irritate the gut causing it to secrete the
mucous. Such parasites might be worms, might be Hexamita-type Protozoans.
Difficult to diagnose without examining the faeces, so one option is to medicate for both.><<Agreed. B>>
I have tried EVERYTHING- Kanamycin, Erythromycin, Ich Cure, everything.
<Understood. But this sort of scattergun approach is rarely effective (or economical).>
The thing that worked best was putting both fish in a hospital tank. First, I treated with Methylene Blue for 10 days. Then, I treated with MetroPlex, both in the water and food, for 10 days. Though Jujuby was still her clamped-fin self, I noticed that Clementine's white spots disappeared, and both fish seemed to have actual normal poops (a first in a long time).
While the fish were in the hospital tank, I did a 90% water change in their regular tank, and allowed it to fully cycle before reintroducing C & J. I also added a Hydro-Sponge filter to supplement their hang-on-back filter.
Within days of returning to their regular tank, Clementine's spots reappeared- in the EXACT same locations where they had been before! And both fish no longer have normal poops. I am so sad and baffled.
I know this is a lot to read and take in, but I really need an expert's help. Thank you so much for taking the time to read my message.
~Laura
<Do hope this helps, Neale.>
Re: goldfish mystery illness (RMF, anything else?)<Nada; thanks> 3/15/16
Hello, Neale! I truly appreciate your quick response, and am off to make a donation to WetWebMedia!
<Ah, that's kind of you. Be sure it goes towards keeping the site on the web; we're all volunteers here.>
You're right, I forgot to mention the temperature of my tank- it's always around 68 degrees F/ 20 degrees Celsius right now, and goes to a maximum of 75 degrees F/ 23 degrees Celsius in the summertime- I am careful to use a fan or air conditioning to keep the water temp from going much higher.
<Sounds fine.>
I realize that constipation is the issue most often seen in goldfish, but I never see Jujuby poop, ever. Never any trailing poop- just nothing. I did see a little explosion of feces from her anal area one day, which makes me think diarrhoea. By contrast, Clementine (the healthier fish) usually has good poops- food-coloured on pellet days, and pea-coloured on green days.
But sometimes she produces poop that looks exactly like a knotted thin white thread. Based on my research, of course I was thinking re-absorbed eggs or a parasitic infection, but my Prazi-Quel treatment did not seem to help.
<Agreed. Does sound at least in part as if this fish isn't eating much/enough. Even with worms, something should come out of the vent! Would make the observation that Prazi-Pro isn't the most effective dewormer in
all course. I'm going to direct you to some reading, here:
http://www.loaches.com/Members/shari2/levamisole-hydrochloride-1
Loaches are commonly "wormy" when imported, and in some cases deworming is essential. Loaches.com is a great website, and very reliable, and even if you aren't keeping loaches there's much of value there.>
About all that medication, I agree- constantly medicating is probably not the best course of action, but it is difficult to watch them suffer, so I end up trying everything.
<Totally understood.>
I've done a full course of each type of medicine, taking care to follow instructions and remove all traces of medication and let the bacteria in the tank return to normal before beginning another treatment. As I
mentioned, the Methylene Blue followed by the Metro-Plex seemed to work best, but what really baffled me is how quickly the spots returned, and that they were in the EXACT same place as before.
<Odd, but does make them sound more viral than anything else.>
This leads me to agree that you're right in thinking fish pox might be the culprit? You've also got me thinking that Coldwater Ick may be a possibility, too (I didn't know that existed before!). But would an infection like Ick return to the exact same locations on a fish's body?
<Could do. The infective free-living stages will favour damaged or thin skin, where the mucous is lacking or whatever. But agreed, if all the "cysts" are in the same place, it does sound unlikely. In any event, since
Ick is relatively easily treated with a combo of heat and salt, and Goldfish have a high tolerance for brackish water, going nuclear on this fish for a couple months might the way forward. Something around 2-3 gram/litre isn't unreasonable, and should kill off most external parasites, let alone Ick.>
Not the same general area, but the same exact spots, as if I had marked them with a pen and they re-appeared right there? What do you think?
<Much as you do. Most curious. Leaning towards the virus, which isn't treatable. Or even some sort of unusual tumour (hardly rare among Goldfish). Neither treatable beyond waiting for nature to take its course.
Provided the Goldfish is active and feeding, these sorts of cysts or tumours are a cosmetic issue rather than anything else.>
I really appreciate your help, Neale- it is difficult to speak to someone who actually knows what they're talking about, versus online speculators who, even with the best intentions, may just be re-cycling what they've read or mixing up information.
~Laura
<Thanks for the kind words. Sorry can't be more categorical though. Good luck going forwards, and if anything changes/improves, be sure to let us know.
Neale.>
Re: goldfish mystery illness (RMF, anything else?)
Thank you so much, Neale- the symptoms of nematode infection as listed on the Loaches site match my fish's symptoms almost exactly- bloody streaks in fins, nodules, white stringy feces, and a bloated vent area. It looks like Levamisole Hydrochloride is difficult to come by here in the US, but I just ordered what I could find, and I hope that it will all work out. Please cross your fingers for me! I will let you know how it goes, in case your other readers are struggling with the same problem one day.
With much gratitude,
Laura
<Definitely an excellent website and I'm pleased you've got a direction to work in now. Good luck! Neale.>

Fantail with haemorrhages/white "tufts" on scales 1/10/15
Hello WWM Crew!
<Jen>
As a long time reader of the site I would like to express my profound and sincere thanks for the work you do! (I would rave on, but instead will get to the point of my email!!)
<Ok!>
The goldfish in question, (Blinky, since I know you adore cute-sy names ;), is 2 year old fantail, 12cm excluding his tail and has always been in excellent health. He was purchased from a chain pet store in June 2013 when I took pity on his one-eyed wiggle at the front of the tank. In Sept 2013, he flew from Canada to France and survived complications of water leaking from his bag. He shares his tank with a black moor of similar size (also from Canada :), a 6cm fantail; (the latest addition on Nov 21
<Mmm; thank you for your careful recording, relating... this may be the source of a/the pathogen>
after 8 week quarantine when I thought Blinky was better), about 10-13 albino aeneus Corydoras (adults and offspring), and (formerly) one female albino Ancistrus (8cm).
The tank itself is 350L and has been running since June when they moved up from a 200L (with most of the decor and established filter media.) It is filtered by a Eheim 2260 filled with floss, sponges, JBL BioNitrat EX and Substrat pro. Temperature is 24 C, pH runs around 7.5-8.0, NH4 and Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10-25, GH 7-14dH and KH 10dH (JBL EasyTest strips, double checked with API master kit occasionally). I change between 20-40% of the water every week
<I'd do the 20 every week>
or 2 depending on my schedule, using tap water (French alps!) conditioned with Prime. Tank is planted with Anubias mounted on rock and a mini forest of Hygrophilia polysperma. Egeria densa is added floating until eaten :)
<This Elodea might be a source>
There are numerous mangrove roots as well.
Substrate is JBL sansibar grey, (which replaced 1mm ceramic (??) balls Oct 23rd, which the black moor kept getting stuck in his nostrils :/) Lighting is 2x38W T8's on for 6 hours daily. I add Botanic CO2 booster (generic Seachem Excel) at suggested dose daily to attempt to control the beard algae. The tank was treated with eSHa 2000 from Oct 4-7th due to a white
"plaque" on the black moor's side; he has always been prone to infections and crashes into things regularly due to his swim bladder issues (he’s also a bottom sitter.)
<Genetic>
The Corys breed every 5-7 days, luckily most of which are eaten or I would be up to my ears in albino Corys!
They are fed (rotating on my whim) Tetra and JBL flakes, Hikari lionhead pellets, HK sinking wafers, HK wheat germ fancy goldfish food, Saki-Hikari Fancy Goldfish, HK algae wafers (every day for the Plec.) and Sera vipachips. On occasion they also get Ocean Nutrition frozen cubes (bloodworm (I know, I know but they LOVE them!), daphnia, Artemia and mysis. I used to feed them oranges, lettuce and cucumber, but I always found they were lethargic afterwards so I stopped. I add either Atvitol or sera vitamins regularly. I try to keep Egeria in the tank, but they may go for a few weeks without when I get busy!)
(wow, that's a lot of info...)
Blinky developed his first white "tuft" spot at the beginning of Nov. Over the next 2 weeks, approximately a dozen tufts appeared and resolved without treatment. Blinky was very irritated, flashing, twitching, yawning and “coughing". The tufts appear at the tips of his scales, and were initially discrete without obvious parasitic or traumatic cause. They stick out from
his body, are about 2mm long/wide and don't appear to be fungal in origin, too "neat".
<Yes; discrete... Perhaps... Lernaea; which the eSHa wouldn't treat>
The haemorrhages are beneath the tufted scales, with the blood just below the scales. The tufts and haemorrhages last for 2-4 days and resolve spontaneously. Not all the tufts have haemorrhaging associated with them. However, in the first batch, 2 were associated with clear white "strings" approx. 1/2 cm long. I could not see any structure to the strings to suspect Lernaea,
<Ah!>
and had no vector,
<As stated above... the last fish, Egeria>
so I suspected they may be slime coat bits. I initially treated the tank with salt (NaCl) at 3 g/L and Praziquantel
<For worms; won't eradicate crustaceans>
according to suggested dosage for 10 days which decreased the outbreak slightly. The tufts which did appear had small haemorrhages at the attachment point and usually a clear "string". I did a skin scraping but found very little; his gills appeared inflamed but normal otherwise. He got a 5 min salt dip at 30g/L after the scrape (Nov 15th) after which he improved greatly, only to relapse a couple weeks later.
After more reading on WWM, I decided the haemorrhagic points and strings could be anchor worm,
<Yes; my guess so far>
as was suggested to another reader with similar symptoms. I treated the tank with JBL Aradol (Diflubenzerone) at the
suggested schedule/dosage Nov 29th which lasts 3 weeks. Initially Blinky appeared slightly improved, but was unchanged by the end of the treatment.
After the Aradol, I scraped him again and found a few flukes and a single protozoa which I couldn't identify.
<Do you have images of these?>
Starting Dec 31, I tried salt dips at 30g/L for 4-6 min.s for 3 days. (Unfortunately, the first dip was at 60g/L due to an error on my part and was only 30 seconds before he rolled, poor guy.) After the dips he was again markedly improved for almost a week, but the haemorrhages again returned with a vengeance.
As of three days ago he had a thickened slime coat, about 20 white tufts, a dozen haemorrhages of various sizes from 2-7mm diameter and the attachment points of his pectoral fins showed internal haemorrhaging and the underside of his operculum were bloody. There is no obvious loss of integrity of his scales at most of the sites, but the bigger ones can have some
raggedness at the edge of the bloodied area, particularly one on his operculum and the posterior portion of his dorsal fin. I have also thought there may be some damage to the underlying tissue at those two same points. One of the Corydoras is acting as a wrasse and loves to eat whatever is on him; perhaps her efforts are causing the spontaneous resolution of the inflammations or is she just eating his excess slime coat? I repeated the 30g/L salt dips the last 3 days and most of the
haemorrhages and tufts have resolved, superficially he looks almost normal. However, he is still lethargic, bottom sitting (never did this before), and does the dash and flash regularly. He is still eating but much less than normal.
<The salt/s won't do any good here>
Now, my moor is also lethargic. He has a single white spot on his head, but he often has these which come and go, like little wen growth areas. It is very different from Blinky's tufts. He has been a bottom sitter for years now; he’s an awkward swimmer with his swim bladder issues and long, flowing fins. He tends to be lazy, usually Blinky poking at him is what gets him moving. (I never thought two goldfish could be so attached to each other.) Yesterday, I saw the Plec lying underneath the Moor eating his fins,
<Common trouble>
something I had never witnessed before, nor seen similar damage. Needless to say, she is no longer in the tank. She has
caused some pretty major damage to about 1/2 his fins, but they are already losing their raggedness. I don’t think the tufts on Blinky could be caused by the same type of thing, they were sticking out from him, not eaten from him, but perhaps it was a result of the Plec?
<Not likely; no>
Lastly, tonight after feeding, I noticed all of my Corydoras and the small fantail were gilling very rapidly, they have been normal all day. A few of the Corys have also started flashing. Tested the water with API kit, all parameters as above. I did a 40% WC on wed, and 10% yesterday. There have not been any possible contaminants during the day (unless the feline-cats
were really getting into mischief! ;). The tank is currently salted at 2g/L, I was going to go up to 3g/L
<... I would not do this>
tonight but I think I will wait on your advice. I know the Corys don’t like the salt. but they have previously tolerated it well. I haven’t raised the temperature as I can’t rule out columnaris. I was going to move Blinky into another tank, and treat him
with some antibiotics, (likely Furanol (Nifurpirinol) or Furanol 2(sodium-nifurstyrenat)) as a first line choice, but with the other fish now showing signs of illness I think I may be better off treating the whole tank?

Help! What are my next steps? Thank you in advance for your help and advice, I really hope to get Blinky and his buddies back to normal!!
Jen
<And adding another filter, likely a hang-on power type of size. Bob Fenner, who is sending this on to Neale Monks for his independent review>

Fantail with haemorrhages/white "tufts" on scales /Neale 1/11/15
<<I don't disagree with anything significant that Bob said. But a few comments might be worthwhile:
(1) Since you're in Europe, buying antibiotics without a prescription is prohibited. There are pros and cons to this, which we can discuss another time. But for now, unless you get the fish looked at by a vet, the antibiotics Bob suggest are a non-runner. We do have some excellent aquarium medicines available in Europe that largely substitute for antibiotics, and my favourite is a product called eSHa 2000. It seems to have low toxicity (safe with filters, and seems safe with catfish and even pufferfish). But is also quite effective, and almost every time I've used it, it's done the job! It also happens to be economical, another plus. About £5 for a bottle, enough for 800 litres. I'd suggest tracking this product down, possibly even by mail order if you can't find it locally. There are other anti-Finrot/anti-bacterial medications on sale, but honestly, this one is much the best, and my preference over, for example, the Interpet product.
(2) Salt is not at all toxic to Goldfish at 2 g/l, and for short-term therapeutic uses (a few weeks) will do Corydoras no harm at all. As Bob suggests, there's no real advantage, and possibly some risk, to using salt continually in tanks with soft water fish such as Corydoras, even at this very low dosage. But Goldfish won't be harmed by this amount of salinity. Indeed, carp generally inhabit slightly brackish environments all around the world.
(3) The combination of salt dips providing short-term benefits plus the appearance of Protozoans in the slime, reminds me of Costia. Another eSHa product, eSHa EXIT, treats Costia, and can be used alongside eSHa 2000 safely. These make a good treatment for the primary infection (the Costia) and the secondary infection (the bacteria). I have used this combination to treat Costia on pufferfish and it worked well, though did require a second course of treatment.
(4) If you do choose do medicate your fish as indicated, be sure to remove carbon from the filter if used. Both eSHa products seem strongly negatively affected by carbon (he says with the voice of experience!).
Cheers, Neale.>>
<Thank you (as always) for you input, summation Neale. B>

2 more questions, GF foods, int. parasites 4/14/12
I have an arsenal of fish food, trying to get the poo not to be long and stringy, I have tetra fin, Wardley flakes (low protein) aqua masters wheat germ, and one that I don't quite know what to think of it, it is apparently for pond goldfish and talks about feeding in certain temperature, Hikari sinking pellets, wheat germ, thinking one of these would help, I don't know what to think of this last one as it talks about temperatures, is it okay to feed this to inside fish in aquariums??
<Yes. In ponds, Goldfish are fed regular food between late spring and early autumn, wheat germ (low-protein) food in early spring and late autumn, and potentially no food at all in winter if it is colder than 10 degrees C.
Indoor Goldfish are kept at the same temperature, so they can be fed whatever you want, though if the room is cooler in winter, it wouldn't be a bad idea to reduce food and bias it towards plants and/or wheat germ pellets.>
What food preferably flakes as they tend to find this for some reason easier then pellets, (two cant see) would you recommend?
<See above.>
Then my last question is , is it possible for them to have internal parasites if nothing other then new water from water changes and the food I give has ever been introduced into the tank??
<Unlikely, but if the fish were infected when you bought them, and they probably were to some degree, environmental stress can cause parasite loads to go right up, causing health issues.>
Nothing live, no different water, no plants,
Thanks a lot
Ill not bother again for a bit!
Cathy
<Real good. Neale.>
Medi-gold 4/14/12
Hello, I have been giving my goldfish Medigold for 7 days now, they were sitting on the bottom even with water changes and checking parameter, one would sit horizontally at top, I thought I might try this as nothing else would work, the pea, changing food, etc. is it okay to give this to them , it contains Krill, fish meal, wheat germ, soybean meal, fish oil, 38 percent protien,12 percent fat, vitamin c, and much more vitamins and minerals,
<Sure.>
the med is sulfadimethoxine and ormetoprim sulfa, I guess since I have been giving it to them my question is if they didn't have bacteria will it hurt and if they did will it help, they don't sit on bottom anymore, I worry about the krill, I read you shouldn't give it to them everyday??
<You shouldn't use any meaty food daily; Goldfish are herbivores! Much better to use pond weed and (ideally) wheat germ or algae-based flake as the staple, regular flake 2-3 times a week, and something like krill as an occasional treat.>
Should I stop now its been 7 days or continue the 14 days as suggested
<Always use medications to the full number of days stated by the manufacturer.>
Thanks
Cathy
<Cheers, Neale.>

Lethargic Shubunkin 12/27/11
Hello.
I bought a Shubunkin, about 1.5 inches (excluding caudal fin), just three days ago,
<Mmm>
together with a slightly larger comet. The comet is doing great - it's active and nibbling everything. The Shubunkin isn't.
It has all its fins tucked to its body, is pointing slightly downwards at the bottom-front of the tank, and seems to be having trouble balancing, with maybe a 10-degree side-to-side wobble once in a while.
When it arrived it was doing better, though its waste was white, though I wouldn't call it 'stringy'.
The tank is 10 gallons (I'm planning on transferring them to a larger tank in a few months),
<Good>
with a cascade filter and air-pump. The most recent water change (30%) was 3 days ago (before adding fish). I also planted some peacock fern with the fish.
<Not likely truly aquatic>
I had the tank running, with other goldfish (now out of this tank) for a week and a half before introducing these two. I fed them once, yesterday, on (rather few) [33% protein, 2% fiber] pellets (I've learned from your site that isn't great, but the Shubunkin is definitely not bloated). Temperature is about 72.5 degrees.
Any thoughts on what might help the Shubunkin?
Shubunkin behavior
Thanks!
<Very likely your new fish is infested w/ any number of parasites, and secondarily w/ infectious agents... Goldfish in the U.S. are almost always raised in abominable conditions. I've used "comets" and at times their closely related variety Shubunkins for demonstration at fish disease classes, exhibits around the planet... for decades. They never disappoint.
There are a few standard approaches to trying to eliminate much of this biological disease... usually in a separate treatment system. Sometimes (but not often), the host/s fight off the disease-causing agents on their own. Where to send you... Start here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshdisease.htm
and the linked files above. Read when you have time, take good notes...
perhaps you will be one to help/improve the lot of these fish in our use of them. Bob Fenner>

Re: Lethargic Shubunkin 12/27/11
Sorry, I forgot to add: I tested the water yesterday (at PetSmart) and everything checked out fine.
<... this "fine" means nothing. Is of no use. B>

Comet goldfish seems to have dark, rice-shaped growths under scales 11/13/11
We have a 3" comet who is mostly white. She lives in a 30 gallon tank with two other, smaller goldfish. Everyone gets along, socially. The tank is cycled and all ammonia/nitrate/nitrite levels are normal, the temperature is in the low 70s (F) as it has been for the last several months since we've set the tank up.
Several hours ago, the comet clamped her fins and sat at the bottom, breathing normally. On the few occasions she's swam around, the lighting in the tank made it clear that there is something literally under her skin and poking through between her scales. What's poking through looks like a giant Ich spot, and what's underneath her skin looks like three or four dark grains of rice. She has no ulcerations anywhere on her body, and it is clear she does not have any anchor worms. She does not have any other white spots on her.
The spot size is tough to describe, but it is smooth and is really just barely larger than a big Ich spot. It is pressing the scale that it's under away from the skin.
We can't find ANYTHING that describes what's going on! I think this is compounded but the fact that she's white, so it's tough to see if she has any white patches that I'd associate with bacterial infections happeningbut there is no streaking, no ulcerations. Can you help us?
Russel

Re: Comet goldfish seems to have dark, rice-shaped growths under scales 11/15/11
Hi Bob!
<Russel>
Thanks very much for your response. I just wanted to let you know what's been going on just in case it continues to let you amass information for your awesome website!
<Ah, welcome>
My fiancÃ© is a dolphin trainer and shared your email with her facility's senior aquarist. He immediately suggested Praziquantel,
<Good>
so we added 225mg of Prazi and 750mg of Metronidazole to the tank yesterday. We saw no response until this morning, when small white "grub-like" things started to make their way out of her scales. This evening, there are tens of sites where this is happening. Our next dose of the aforementioned treatments happens tomorrow afternoon, so we're hoping it'll help her.
<Also>
It's really sad watching her sit at the bottom, and she's stopped eating since this afternoon. She is swimming more now, though, and that seems to help her shed her uninvited guests faster. The senior aquarist described similar behavior in sting rays he's dipped in a Prazi bath, so we're encouraged by that. Her respiration level and her body condition are still normal.
<Very>
Hopefully this little fish will pull through. Thanks again for your information!!!!!
Russel
<And you for this follow up. Cheers, BobF>
Re: Comet goldfish seems to have dark, rice-shaped growths under scales, Flukes & Tapes 11/17/11
We're at the end of the med cycle now and she looks much better. The small worms have continued to crawl out of the skin, and this morning we found a tapeworm at the bottom in the place she tends to sit. She is swimming around almost like normal, although she tends to clamp her dorsal fin some and sill bottom sit a little bit. Her scales are still slightly raised where the worms came out and blood is showing in these spots a little bit. We want to put her on an antibiotic (Minocycline or similar) to prevent infection.
<Okay>
We also may go through another cycle of the Prazi to kill any parasites that may have survived.
<A good idea with goldfish>
From what we've read, we're thinking that the tapeworm was the culprit and the small worms we saw crawl out of her skin and the dark spots under her skin were the egg sacks and larvae.
<Mmm, no>
Does this sound right?
<Not the life-cycle of these organisms>
Also, do you have experience with tapeworms in goldfish?
<Some>
Russel C
<BobF>

Oranda Goldfish With Internal Parasites - Please Help With Garlic Treatment Advice 9/13/2011
Hello there,
<Minsi>
Im having a bit of an issue in my goldfish tank. It is a 55 gallon aquarium with two filters [a Whisper hang on back for a 50-60 gallon aquarium and a Marineland Magnum canister filter for a 100 gallon aquarium.], large bubble wall, some decorations, and sand for substrate. It has been cycled since August 2010. I do a 20 gallon water changed every three days and use Tetra Aquasafe Plus water conditioner. There are no live plants currently. According to my API test kits, ammonia and nitrite are 0, Im not sure what the nitrate is because I dont have a kit.
<If concerned re, I would get/use one. A good indication of overall water quality... you want to keep NO3 under 20 ppm>
The only inhabitants are 2 Orandas Ive had since last December [Tubby and Wubby], one ranchu I've received in February, one small bubble eye goldfish I added a month and a half ago [after a 30 day quarantine,] and some Ramshorn snails that I added two months ago [also went through a 30 day quarantine.]. Ive had no issues with the tank until recently, maybe two weeks ago. My two Orandas have gradually become inactive to the point that they spend most of their time resting on the bottom of the tank. They favor one side of the tank, which is the side I always feed them on. I thought it might be a filtration issue because I had the filters towards the left side and the middle, so during the last water change I switched the HOB filter to the right side, but it didnt help any. They get fed 3 times a day in light doses; their main food is Hikari Lionhead pellets that I presoak before putting in the tank, they also eat cooked deshelled peas or cooked broccoli florets every other day, and once a week they get either a frozen brine shrimp or frozen bloodworm treat. Ive noticed that the more inactive they became, the less they pooped, so I thought maybe they were constipated and started feeding them peas only for a week in hopes of flushing out their system. This didnt seem to help. They eat eagerly but after their meals they continue to lay at the bottom. My ranchu has started popping white, thin poops which Im sure are the cause of internal parasites.
<Mmm, need to use a microscope...>
None of my local fish stores supply medicated foods and Ive done a bit of research about the garlic method. Three days ago I bought some fresh garlic, crushed it, boiled it, mashed it up some more and have been soaking their pellets in the garlic juice and bits ever since in hopes that it will flush the parasites out. However I have yet to see a difference in their behavior. How long would I have to continue the garlic soaking treatment?
<Am not a fan of Allium approaches>
Have you had any personal experience with this or would you suggest I do something else?
<Yes I would. IF you can be more assured of "parasitic cause" here, I'd mix an anti-protozoal (Metronidazole) and anthelminthic (Praziquantel likely) in w/ the foods... See WWM re these compounds, use.>
Are there any sure signs that I should look for to know the parasites are gone?
<The 'scope again, or likely just general behavior improvement>
I am reluctant to use any medications that would kill off my filter bacteria and am starting to worry about the health of my goldfish. Ive read and reread my Pond and Aquarium Encyclopedia about intestinal parasites and all it says is Use medicated fish food., which really doesnt help. Your help is greatly appreciated!
Sincerely, Minsi
<Thank you for your well-investigated report... I am wondering re other possible/probable causes here... IF it were me/mine, ahead of such medicine treatment, I'd get the nitrate test kit... modify the water change-out routine to just weekly, and store and pre-treat the new water for the change-outs for the week previous. Given your quarantine, the time of the set-up in place, lack of probable introduction of pathogens... I suspect there is something environmental at play here... NOT biological in origin, and not treatable w/ medicines. Bob Fenner>
Orandas With Internal Parasites - Need Some Garlic Treatment Help... redux 9/17/11
Hello there,
<Howdy>
Im having a bit of an issue in my goldfish tank. It is a 55 gallon aquarium with two filters [a Whisper hang on back for a 50-60 gallon aquarium and a Marineland Magnum canister filter for a 100 gallon aquarium.], large bubble wall, some decorations, and sand for substrate. It has been cycled since August 2010. I do a 20 gallon water changed every three days and use Tetra Aquasafe Plus water conditioner. There are no live plants currently. According to my API test kits, ammonia and nitrite are 0, Im not sure what the nitrate is because I dont have a kit.
<Still?>
The only inhabitants are 2 Orandas Ive had since last December [Tubby and Wubby], one ranchu I've received in February, one small bubble eye goldfish I added a month and a half ago [after a 30 day quarantine,] and some Ramshorn snails that I added two months ago [also went through a 30 day quarantine.]. Ive had no issues with the tank until recently, maybe two weeks ago. My two Orandas have gradually become inactive to the point that they spend most of their time resting on the bottom of the tank. They favor one side of the tank, which is the side I always feed them on. I thought it might be a filtration issue because I had the filters towards the left side and the middle, so during the last water change I switched the HOB filter to the right side, but it didnt help any. They get fed 3 times a day in light doses; their main food is Hikari Lionhead pellets that I presoak before putting in the tank, they also eat cooked deshelled peas or cooked broccoli florets every other day, and once a week they get either a frozen brine shrimp or frozen bloodworm treat.
<You've written us re this before...>
Ive noticed that the more inactive they became, the less they pooped, so I thought maybe they were constipated and started feeding them peas only for a week in hopes of flushing out their system. This didnt seem to help. They eat eagerly but after their meals they continue to lay at the bottom. My ranchu has started popping white, thin poops which Im sure are the cause of internal parasites. None of my local fish stores supply medicated foods and Ive done a bit of research about the garlic method. Three days ago I bought some fresh garlic, crushed it, boiled it, mashed it up some more and have been soaking their pellets in the garlic juice and bits ever since in hopes that it will flush the parasites out. However I have yet to see a difference in their behavior. How long would I have to continue the garlic soaking treatment?
<As long as you'd like; but it is doubtful if will do any good>
Have you had any personal experience with this or would you suggest I do something else?
<IF you are sure there is some internal/lumenal parasitic issue, I'd stop treating period... look to improving water quality (the NO3 issue/testing)... IF you are sure of what sort of parasite/s you supposedly are trying to eliminate, I'd read/use Metronidazole and or Praziquantel (in foods)...>
Are there any sure signs that I should look for to know the parasites are gone?
<... behavior likely... Use of a microscope, sampling of fecal material>
I am reluctant to use any medications that would kill off my filter bacteria and am starting to worry about the health of my goldfish. Ive read and reread my Pond and Aquarium Encyclopedia about intestinal parasites and all it says is Use medicated fish food., which really doesnt help.
<There are a few types of this... some commercially made, others you can put together yourself as mentioned above. Input re these materials is posted extensively on WWM; do avail yourself of the search tool posted on every page>
Your help is greatly appreciated!
Sincerely, Minsi
<Glad to help, again. BobF>

Icky situation 8/21/11
Hi, crew, my name is Jenny.
I love your website, and the emails have really helped me and my little scaly buddies. :)
<Glad you've enjoyed the site.>
Well, recently, my friend bought a new pond setup for her patio. After she set it up, she couldn't make up her mind on what fish to get, but she really likes black moors, so I got two from my local petstore (about 1" 1/2 each)
<Okay. Now, Black Moors aren't the best pond fish. They are generally quite hardy and good at feeding themselves, but they can be bullied by single-tail "standard" Goldfish such as Comets, and more seriously, are prone to Finrot during cold weather. I wouldn't keep them outdoors if the water temperature got much below 15 C/59 F.>
Right after I had just brought them home, I noticed they were awfully thin.
The bigger problem I noticed was that one had a couple of small white spots all over it. I bought a male and female one,
<??? How did you sex them? At 1.5 inches, they're far too small to sex.>
but it was the female one that had the white spots, so I knew it was Ick. I treated them for a week, and the male didn't get any white spots. I put him in my fish tank, just to keep him from catching the Ick. I also treated the tank in case he was carrying it.

After a couple of days of treatment, I noticed that spots were disappearing, but then more kept coming up. This continued for a while, until I switched to a new medicine. Almost all of the spots went away for two days, then came back again. She also sits at the bottom of the hospital tank I'm keeping her in: only if I drop food in is when she will come up. I don't know what could be causing it's behavior, or the reaction of the "Ick" from the medicine.
<Can be, but does also depend on the water quality of the hospital tank. If you don't have a cycled hospital tank (or aren't using a chemical filter like Zeolite to remove ammonia directly) you will need to do daily water changes of 25% or more. That in turn can cause problems for medicating with standard Ick medications that often assume no water changes between doses.
I would recommend the salt/heat method in this case. Apart from being cheap and effective, you can replace any water taken out with water made up with some salt added as required, so that the salinity stays the same. For example, the standard treatment for Whitespot/Ick is 2 grammes per litre.
So if you have a 10-gallon tank set up, that's 10 gallons of water that's about 40 litres, so 2 grammes per litre for 40 litres total = 80 grammes of salt added to the water. Do a 25% water change, you've taken out about 10 litres, and the new 10 litres you add will need 10 x 2 = 20 grammes of salt added to that new bucket of water. And so on. It's simple maths if you use litres and grammes, anyway!>
I'm not sure, but for a 1" 1/2 fish, and he's only 3/4 of an inch from its dorsal fin to its stomach, I'm guessing that's not good. Maybe that's what's causing it? Because it's not very big?
<When fish are underweight, then yes, they can be more prone to Whitespot.
But the salt/heat method should work well here.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/SaltUseFWArtNeale.htm
Plus, salt has a slight tonic effect on robust fish like Goldfish, at least in the short term. Don't go out of your way to overfeed to compensate, and DO NOT feed if ammonia and nitrite levels are not zero. But on the other hand, adding a bunch of pondweed will allow them to graze and obtain energy without harming water quality.>
I would be delighted if you could reply back and give me an idea of what's happening.
Thank you for your time, Jenny.
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Icky situation, GF 8/22/11
Thanks for the reply, Neale.
<You're welcome.>
Sadly, the little one died this afternoon. I still have the male one, though. He and the other fish haven't shown any signs of Ick. He's also gained a bit of weight from what I'm feeding him
<Cool.>
I had been keeping the female in a cycled 1 1/2 hospital tank, which was all I had when I noticed her spots. It does have a filter, which uses activated carbon. I bought a different filter add-on that removes ammonia in the water that passes though it.
I was also told at the pet store that they keep their males and females separate so they don't mate, which I thought was a bit of a bad idea, since male fish will fight other males.
So I guess they don't know what they're doing, really.
<Hang on a second. Are we talking about Black Moors or Black Mollies? Black Moors are a black Goldfish variety with googly eyes and two tail fins.
They're sometimes called Black Telescope-eye Fish because "Moor" is a somewhat archaic term for North Africans. Black Mollies are livebearers, black versions of the Shortfin Molly. Males of these are easily told from females; like other livebearers, the males have a tube-like anal fin called a gonopodium used during mating. Black Moors and Black Mollies have VERY different requirements! Juvenile Goldfish including Black Moors CANNOT be sexed, so there's no way a store can separate them. Black Mollies on the other hand CAN be sexed from an age of about 3 months, and good aquarium shops will keep males and females apart.>
The lid light that goes to the aquarium generates a lot of heat, too (keeps water temp. around 80 degrees) so I was all set to put her in. She was doing fine, but after a couple of hours, she stopped swimming and just sat at the bottom. Then she started doing it more often, for a longer time, and then she completely stopped eating, starting late last night.
I looked online and it said that moor prefer sinking food, which I had also been giving the other fish in my 10 gal. They were algae wafers, made for bottom feeders or algae eaters like Pleco, but I put one in for the Pleco and the male moor and other fish nibble on it, instead.
So I put a fourth of one in the hospital tank and she wouldn't even go near it. I think she died because she stopped eating. And with only one last spot, she was so close to getting rid of the Ick.
Thanks for the reply, though.
Those tips will help me out the next time I have a sick fish.
Sincerely, Jenny.
<Do let me know which sort of fish you have. Care, treatment will be much different depending on the species. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Icky situation 8/23/11
Huh... I'm guessing my pet store doesn't know what they're doing then.

Definitely talking about black moor.
<Right, the big black Goldfish thing?>
I didn't really know how to tell from a male and female black moor, so I asked and they said that there were two tanks, one with male and one with female moor. They were all pretty small, too.
<You can't sex them. Go check out a Goldfish book if you don't believe me.
Adult males in the breeding season develop "tubercles" on their faces that look a bit like pock-marks. But that's about the only obvious difference between the sexes.>
They have two tanks for every breed of fish, except for Pleco and Cory catfish, and I guess they're to separate the females from the males.
I guess they don't really know if they're male or female or not.

Well, thanks for the information, Neale. I'll be visiting your site more often when I need some help. :)
<Cool. Do visit the WWM Forum, here: http://bb.wetwebmedia.com/
It's a good place to chat with other aquarists, many of whom are beginners, though experts keep an eye on things to ensure sensible discussions. Often talking with other people at the same point in a hobby is a good way to learn the basics and share ideas.>
-Jenny
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Black moor with digestive troubles 03/20/11
Hi Neale:
<Gina,>
Well, it has been several weeks now and my poor little moor is hanging in there but is still not well.
<Oh dear.>
Its colour has faded and it has ongoing motility problems. It swims normally for a few seconds, then swims backwards in a strange "hiccoughing" motion. It is still extremely constipated, presenting with long, trailing feces, some of which is so fine it looks like a single strand of cobweb.
<Mucous perhaps? Or a single fine worm, e.g., a nematomorph?>
Metronidazole-based food did not work, nor did Praziquantel-based food, peas or abstaining from treatment. Not surprisingly, it is beginning to have flotation issues.
<Indeed.>
I have located a de-worming flake food that contains Fenbendazole at an online store called Angelsplus.com. You suspected this fish was infected with helminths and I think that it might be prudent to try to treat for this now before I lose this little fish. I wanted to pass on the name of the webstore (as long as it doesn't violate some rule of your website) because it is the only place that I found that carried a Fenbendazole-based food: hopefully this information might help someone else who is having similar tank troubles. The company is based in the US but they do ship to Canada (I'm not certain about the UK).
<Thanks for sharing this information.>
I have not been able to use a microscope at work so if this fails my next step will be to have the fishes feces tested for parasites. This is an expensive option that I am hoping to avoid. I will let you know if this food works for the moor or not.
<I'm actually very impressed by your care here; most fishkeepers would have called it a day with this Moor, and either euthanised it or simply ignored its problems.>
Kind regards:
Gina
<Good luck, Neale.>
Re: Black moor with digestive troubles 3/20/11
Hi Neale:
<Gina,>
I Googled "nematomorph" and discovered a whole new world of things I'd rather have not viewed before breakfast! It could indeed be a single worm- I have no way of telling without a closer look.
<Indeed, that is the case.>
It is so difficult to decide what to do or which medication might be effective. <<None. RMF>> I don't want to kill the fish by using too many medications. The fish also has a tank mate (who is asymptomatic except that it has not grown since I purchased it as a near-fry several months ago). The failure of this second fish to grow does seem to indicate some sort of worm.
<Would seem likely.>
Do you think that a Fenbendazole food is the next most logical step? What should I do about potential eggs or larva in the tank? I have increased my water changes/vacuuming for this one tank to three to four times per week since the fish has become ill- is this helpful? The water changes are quite small as I don't want to disturb the biological filtration. I have also been changing the carbon in the filter once a week.
<If you're treating for worms, yes, it makes sense to treat the whole tank.
Antihelminthic medications shouldn't affect biological filtration, but do keep an ammonia or nitrite test kit to hand just in case the fish start behaving oddly.>
I can't bear to euthanise since the fish are both still active and interested in food. If this changes I will have to consider this option but I am hoping I will be able to report otherwise.
Gina
<Good luck, Neale.>
re: Black moor with digestive troubles 3/20/11
Neale:
<Gina,>
Thank you! I have done some more "Googling" and found two very good articles regarding antihelmith medications. The first is a research paper comparing six antihelminthic drugs:
http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao/13/d013p123.pdf
<Yes.>
So I am wondering if Levamisole HCl might be a better alternative than the Fenbendazole food since I need to treat the entire tank. Which led me to the second article in a loach
forum: http://www.loaches.com/disease-treatment/levamisole-hydrochloride-1
However, I can't seem to find a supplier for Levamisole HCl in Canada (since it is a cattle dewormer I find this odd- perhaps it goes by a different name). I may be able to purchase from the US if it is not a
restricted item.
<Only Praziquantel and Flubendazole are sold over the counter in the UK, and this may well be the same in the US.>
In your experience, what is the most effective treatment?
<No experience at all here! Never had to treat for worms. For whatever reason, worm-infected fish do not seem that common in the UK retail side of the hobby. I'm sure worm-infected fish do get sold here, but compared to other sources of mortality, they just don't seem to be significant outside very specific niches such as Discus. With that said, products like Sera Tremazol, Solupraz and Wormer Plus are sold/used here, and seemingly successfully.>
Many Thanks:
Gina
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Black moor with digestive troubles 3/22/11
Hi Neale:
I did find a supplier of Levamisole in the US so if the parcel doesn't get stopped at the border I should have it in a couple of weeks. It seems a long time for my poor fish to wait but it has been a real trouper through all of this. I can only hope I am targeting the right parasite/worm. I've ruled out Trematodes and Hexamita so I'm keeping my fingers crossed..
<Me too!>
In the meantime I am saving up for a decent microscope!
I will let you know what happens with the little moor.
<Thank you, and good luck! Cheers, Neale.>
Gina
re: Black moor with digestive troubles, Flukes 4/7/2011
Sorry to bother you again, Neale (and WetWeb team):
<Gina,>
Well, I have found flukes in all of my tanks- the highest populations are in the tanks without UV sterilizers though even these have a few rogue critters. As I mentioned, I cannot identify the exact species but can say for certain that they are viviparous and I would like to try to eliminate them!
<Indeed.><<and, very common w/ goldfish in most places in the world. RMF>>
I understand this is quite difficult and involves prolonged treatment.
<Can do. Otherwise, best to remove your fish, bleach what you can, discard the rest, and then cycle a whole new filter.>
Is there a safe and effective way to rid my tank of these pests?
<Are we talking about Flatworms (free-living Platyhelminthes) or true Flukes (parasitic Platyhelminthes, Trematoda and Monogenea, on the skin and/or internal organs of your fish, e.g., Dactylogyrus)? Free-living Flatworms are extremely common in aquaria and pose no particular risk, though large numbers of them suggest less than pristine conditions in the tank. No treatment is needed. For things like Dactylogyrus then the usual treatment is an anti-helminthic such as Praziquantel, though a vet may well propose alternative, better medications.>
I would have to treat the tanks so anything that will not kill off the filter media (but will eliminate all the flukes that are hiding in there)
would be best. Has anyone had luck with complete eradication?
<Praziquantel should not exhibit any antibiotic/antibacterial effects.>
Thanks:
Gina
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Black moor with digestive troubles, Flukes 4/8/11
Hi Neale:
<Gina,>
Yes, I am 99.9% sure that these are flukes- they have a widely segmented body and hooks at the distal end that they use to attach themselves to debris in the tank while they twist around looking for food.
<So they are free-living? Not all flatworms are parasites.>
When they detach they move with an extension-retraction motion (sort of like a caterpillar).
<The Monogenea have suckers and hooks around the mouth; Digeneans typically have two "mouths", one the mouth itself, the other a kind of sucker. In Digeneans, the life cycles are often so complex they cannot be completed under aquarium conditions. I'm sure there are exceptions, but these appear to be rare. Under aquarium conditions -- as opposed to pond conditions -- the more probable "flukes" are Monogeneans, which usually have a single host, i.e., the fish in this instance. Dactylogyrus is probably the most common. There are numerous treatments used on fish farms, some of which may be applicable to aquaria, notably Praziquantel; do see a good fish health book for details and arguments in favour of one treatment over another.>
I can clearly see a developing fluke within the fluke. I have not found them on my fish but will do more systematic sampling to be sure. I have not taken gill sample for fear of damaging the fish (is there an easy way to take a gill sample or swab?)
<Not on small, ornamental fish species.>
As I mentioned, I have not been able to identify this fluke from resources on the internet. These creatures do seem to inhabit the buildup in the filter and the annoying spots of brown algae that occasionally bloom in my tank. Is there a species of free-living, harmless fluke?
<All Monogenea and Digenea are parasitic. Free-living flatworms do not have suckers, and typically glide across flat surfaces. Do also be aware of free-living leeches, as opposed to parasitic leeches.>
I really do like the idea of cycling new media and cleaning the tanks. I have just read that Prazi over a period of 21 days may be effective but am loathe to medicate my fish for such a long period of time unless Prazi is indeed safe for such a long-term application.
<About as safe as any medication.>
If I do opt for the first method, what is the best way to ensure that I don't transfer a fluke to the new tank via the fish when I transfer them?
<You can't. By definition, a live fish can carry across parasites, and indeed this is precisely why releasing Goldfish and other ornamental fish into the wild is such a risk -- any such fish could carry parasites from fish farms and/or the tropics into the wild. Treating in a hospital tank with a Zeolite (non-biological) filter may help break the cycle.>
Thank you:
Gina
<Cheers, Neale.>
re: Black moor with digestive troubles 4/8/11
Thanks again, Neale:
I will try to find a good book so that I can identify this fluke. It most resembles the Gyrodactylus fluke but the distal end is different (it does not have the polydactylous hooks). It also has a very characteristic single
stalk that looks like the eyestalk of a snail or slug near the head. I can't find this anywhere (ah, maybe I have discovered a new fluke! The Monogenea Almedius..). At any rate, I will take some more samples from my fish to see if I can find any on the actual body surface. If I find out what this is (or if I can afford a camera attachment for my microscope) I will send along the info!
What frustrates me the most is that this is my fault.. though I have been very careful to quarantine new fish (I usually do so for two months) I became complacent and began using the same vacuum on all of the tanks near the end of my last quarantine. Sigh.
Gina
<Hello Gina. Thanks for the update, and I commiserate with the feeling that you, the owner, have somehow created the problem you're having to deal with. We've all been there. Life doesn't have an Undo button unfortunately, so you have to live and learn. Good luck, Neale.>
re: Black moor with digestive troubles. More worm spec., now Rotifera, Nematoda 4/10/11
Neale!!!
<Hello Gina,>
I have never been so happy to admit I was wrong! I have finally found my creature- and it is NOT a fluke. It is, in fact, a rotifer. I can't find the exact species but it is one of the Bdelloid rotifers and looks very much like the Philodina gregaria (and is possibly a sub-species).
<Interesting.>
I had identified other rotifers in the water (beautiful stentors and other unidentified, round, fat rotifers) but I missed the cilia on these ones as they move too much to be able to focus the scope. I found one this morning that had the decency to die without contracting and was able to zoom in it a bit better. This explains why I find the greatest concentrations in the filter and why the "foot" does not have the hooks typical of a fluke. They do look very fluke-like and move in the same fashion so I can see why I got confused.
<I can understand the confusion, and I'm very pleased to hear the good news. I will make the observation that excessively high concentrations of any microbe, good or bad, could suggest issues with aquarium cleanliness, so keep an open mind there.>
This just leaves me with nematodes to deal with in two tanks. I am sure that won't be fun, either but at least I don't have to worry about flukes at the same time!
Gina
<Indeed. Free-living nematodes aren't a problem, but Camallanus worms are perhaps the most annoying of the parasitic forms found in aquaria. Not too difficult to treat, but do bear in mind that carbon and excessive amounts of organic material in the aquarium (silt, mulm, etc) can reduce the efficacy of any medication. Cheers, Neale.>
re: Black moor with digestive troubles... Nematodes, free-living 4/11/11
Thanks Neale:
Ah, yes, I do think the nematodes I have found are of the free-living sort as they are found in scrapings from the inside of my filter. They most closely resemble "vinegar eels" though I have not found them swimming in samples of tank water, only in filter detritus.

I have taken dozens of samples of fish waste and have not found any worms with the exception of one sample I gathered from the bottom of the tank that I suspect had been sitting there for a few hours and had been infiltrated by the worms. The rest of the samples have been more recent.
This is both good and bad as this means that I have failed to identify the trouble with my poor little moor (which is still alive but not very perky).
<May simply be poor genes or some other syndrome we can't identify or treat. Just as humans have hundreds of different diseases, so too do fish, and as hobbyists we are only familiar with a few of them.>
I did find one evil-looking nematode with a stylus but this was in my Oranda tank and I have not been able to find another. Samples of my Oranda's waste has some sort of very small worm (?) or other fast-moving
creature that I cannot identify as it is very hard to see even at 1600x. This may be normal- I can't find any information on the web about what normal fish poop should look like under a microscope!
I do very regular maintenance on my tanks- I do small water changes/vacuuming a minimum of twice a week and I change the filter pads or squeeze out the sponges every 4 to 6 weeks. Perhaps this is not enough- should I adjust my filter maintenance, perhaps?
<This does all sound adequate.>
My fish are fed home made gel food which is made of a large variety of blended vegetables and spirulina algae- I don't put it into the tank directly, I have, ah, trained my fish to take bits of food off of a small
spoon. I didn't think there was excess food left in the tank but perhaps small bits are escaping. This would be great fodder for nematodes and rotifers I should think.
<Likely so, but in itself, not a problem. Most, likely all, tanks have some sort of microbial fauna, and this plays a key role in the biological filtration process. Without them, the solid wastes from your fish wouldn't
get broken down into the particles and dissolved chemicals your filter can handle.>
Anyways- thank you so much for your help, Neale. It has been quite a journey trying to save the black moor: I guess part of trying to find the source of a problem is to rule out what isn't a factor!
Gina
<Glad to help and listen. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: More re: Help (RMF, thoughts on very weird water chemistry?), GF, Ich 1/1/11
Hello Crew
<RMF jumping in here as I deem your situation dire>
My 75 G with 4 5" telescope butterflies began to show the first sign of Ich and some yawning. (my city water had changed the GH from 53 to nearly 400 and I did not catch it right away.) My water has been very stable and very clean for many months and the fish have been thriving... until this happened. By coincidence, two of these fish were new and I had quarantined them for 3 weeks and saw no problems. I had just introduced them to the main tank when this snafu with the General Hardness happened.
When I discovered it, the GH had been close to 500 for 3 days. I did water changes until the GH was back in an acceptable range and following this, the Ich symptoms appeared.
<Mmm, okay... the general hardness stated is "not that bad" for goldfish... if not otherwise "challenged">
I raised the temp to 80 slowly (from 76)

and added 1% aquarium salt.
<Mmm... Of dubious value to state this mildly.>
Everyone was happy and eating the next morning and I added salt up to 2%.
The fish almost immediately started to show oxygen distress... gulping frantically, and two of them piping desperately at the surface. One began to show swim bladder problems and one was doing a headstand in the corner.
By that evening, I had gotten the temp back down to 78 and done small water changes (very small)...not knowing what else to do when these symptoms were getting worse. I put heavy carbon in the filters.
<Okay...>
the next morning the fish were all piled on top of one another in one corner. They would swim out to eat, dorsals up, and then immediately pile in the corner again, motionless But now with very very slow breathing, very lethargic and now two of them showing some blood in their fins and beginning of fin rot.
<Understood, understandable>
I backtracked through all the steps I had taken, looking for a solution and discovered that my box of aquarium salt had a faint odor. It was half of a box that I had opened a few months previously and it had been stored in a big cabinet. In the farthest back corner of that cabinet, I found a partial box of Miracle Grow Plant Food and Fertilizer. I know that salt absorbs everything in the atmosphere, along with any chemicals in the air.
This is the salt that I used when I dosed the tank up to 2%.
I think I poisoned my wonderful fish.
<Mmm, maybe>
Luckily I had another cycled 75 G tank. I did a topical Bio Bandage/Neomycin treatment on the bad fins and I moved them all into this new clean tank. Water parameters all the same in both tanks.
PH 8.3
KH 130
GH 225
nitrite 0
ammonia 0
nitrate 5
They are still lethargic but breathing more normally and they all seem to be quite a bit more comfortable. Two are still doing some bottom sitting but their dorsals are up and they are eating.... and exploring the new tank a little bit. I plan to just keep pristine water and good food... but I am going to have to treat the Ich and fin problems here at some point.
Frankly I am afraid to do ANYTHING and would appreciate some advice in how to proceed with treatment.

Dumb question, but I am assuming the contaminated tank should be sterilized and recycled?
<A good idea, yes... Likely chlorine bleach... a SOP protocol is archived on WWM re>
It's a bummer because this is my oldest and most stable tank. It has awesome filter media. :{
Many thanks for your input on this mess I have created for my poor fish.
Happy New Year ! (At least my fish are still alive and have not dropsied !!!)
Amy
PS
My filters on the new tank are Filstar Rena XP4, Emperor 400, and a Fluval 400 submersible pump, stuffed with media.
<Will have to remove the chemical media during treatment of course. Cheers, Bob Fenner>
Re: More re: Help (RMF, thoughts on very weird water chemistry?) 1/2/11
Everyone was happy and eating the next morning and I added salt up to 2%. The fish almost immediately started to show oxygen distress gulping frantically, and two of them piping desperately at the surface.
<<Am I reading this right, Amy? You raised the salinity to 2%? Let's be clear about how salinity works, and why I avoid using the percent scale when talking about salinity. Normal seawater has a salinity of 3.5%, in other words, 35 parts of salt per thousand parts of water. Among marine biologists -- like me! -- it's usual to simply call this a salinity of 35 grammes per litre. Very easy to understand that way: 35 grammes of marine aquarium salt mix per 1000 grammes of water, i.e., 1 litre of water, since 1000 grammes of water equals one litre of water. I know Americans sometimes get scared of the metric system, but for this sort of thing it is extremely simple. So anyway, if you're creating seawater for a fish tank, you add 35 grammes of marine salt mix to each litre of water. When treating freshwater fish, you normally want much lower salinities. The usual concentrations are around 2 grammes per litre, i.e., less than one-tenth normal seawater salt concentration. To each litre of water, add 2 grammes of marine salt mix. At this concentration you'd not cause your fish any stress at all. Now, let's look at 2% salt solution. That's 20 grammes of salt per litre, or about six-tenths the salinity of seawater. That will very quickly kill any freshwater fish not able to adapt to brackish or marine conditions. Goldfish will certainly be killed by such conditions. When using salt to treat freshwater fish, can I strongly urge you to use the grammes per litre approach, however much you might think the metric system is a socialist plot to bring down America? Do read, here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/SaltUseFWArtNeale.htm
If you have exposed your fish to strongly saline conditions like these, replace at least 75% of the water with plain freshwater immediately. Yes, doing massive water changes normally stresses fish, but 2% seawater will kill Goldfish within hours, so there isn't much latitude here. Cheers, Neale.>>
Re: More re: Help (RMF, thoughts on very weird water chemistry?) 1/2/11
Neale,
So sorry, I neglected my decimal point..... .2%.
<Ah, yes, makes a difference.>
Supposedly the recommended dose for using aquarium salt to treat Ich. (?)
<Salt can be used this way; 2 grammes/litre.>
Three teaspoons of salt per gallon. .1% added three times, 12 hours apart.
<How much salt is there in a teaspoon? Do you know? That's the problem.
Salt absorbs moisture from the air, so over time puffs up. Estimating salinity using teaspoons is extremely inaccurate. Enough to kill your fish?
Probably not. But certainly enough to cause problems with salinities that are too low to kill the Whitespot parasites.>
I shall take your advice about learning metric under advisement.
<Trust me, it's easier. One level cooking teaspoon of fresh marine salt mix should weight about 6 grammes. Use kitchen scales to check. If you have a bucket containing, say, 15 litres of water, then at 2 grammes per litre, all you do is add 30 grammes of salt. Couldn't be any easier. You don't need to "understand" anything -- merely know how big your bucket is in litres, and then weigh out the salt on kitchen scales.>
Though I have already clearly demonstrated how inept I apparently am with my own mathematical system. I'm afraid a foray into Metric territory would be even more disastrous for my fish and frustrating for you!
<Sometimes the easiest way to do something requires learning something new.>
But I will try to consider the merits of such.
<Cool.>
My fish are in the new tank safe, swimming in fresh water and handling the first dose of Ridich (malachite green) very well. Thanks so much once again for your quick advice.
Amy
<Glad to help. Cheers, Neale.>

Help!! FW... GF... Ich... bad advice, reading 11/21/10
Hi,
<Hello there>
I came across your website, which I found to be very informative, however I still have a question that I hope someone can answer. I have a 55 gallon tank with goldfish. I had four goldfish in the tank and recently added in a fifth. Before introducing the new fish I was noticing white spots on two of my goldfish. I read up on the internet and assumed it was due to breeding.
After introducing the new fish I began to notice my fish were rubbing against the tank and flashing. From there, a fungal infection broke out and my entire tank is covered! The problem is I believe they have some sort of parasite (either Anchorworm, fish lice or both) which caused the fungus. I began treating with Pimafix at the recommendation of my pet store.
<Worthless... see our site re>
They said I cannot treat for both issues at once and should treat the fungus first.
<Incorrect as well>
Unfortunately, two fish have died and the fungus does not seem to be clearing up. I have since moved two of the more healthy remaining fish to a separate tank. I was given Ick attack
<...>
by the pet store, but am not sure it will treat BOTH issues. I would like something stronger than Pimafix that would treat the parasites AND fungus and would be fairly safe for goldfish.
What do you recommend I do?
<Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwlvstkind1.htm
scroll down to the Goldfish tray... Disease/health articles, FAQs files>
Your advice would be GREATLY appreciated!
Thanks!
Elana
<I'd be looking for another store. Bob Fenner>

Ick 9/24/10
Dear WWM,
<Hi Sandra! Melinda here.>
I have a 20gal tank containing 2 black moor and one 6 yr old clown loach that my wonderful friend added to my tank about 6 weeks ago.
<Ideally, your fish will outgrow this tank rather quickly. It is really quite small for even one fancy goldfish, so do keep an eye on Nitrate levels, and be sure to upgrade as needed. In addition, loaches are a schooling fish, and really do much better in groups of five or more, though at least adding a couple of buddies will help. The loach, which should be way too large for this tank at six years old (about six inches long), is likely experiencing some issues with growth, but will continue to grow (fish do not actually "stunt") so meeting his needs may turn out to be more than you bargained for.>
They've seemed to do well together with a water temp of 72 as far as appetite and activity. (I know these fish don't belong together since doing some reading on this adorable loach).
<They are adorable, aren't they? Some of my very favorite fish.>
Here's my problem. I noticed the Ich on the moors about two weeks ago. I had no idea what it was so I took a photo of them and went to a local pet store for advice. I was advised to use Nox-Ick which contains NaCl and malachite green. I followed the instructions for 3 day Tx and per package waited one day and repeated due to evidence that the Ick was still on the moors. The moors were once again black and on the 8th day I vacuumed the gravel and did a 50% water change and put the carbon back in the filter.
Needless to say the poor little striped fellow did not fair well. He stopped eating, seemed short of breath and just laid low in his log. It was at this point that I discovered that this Tx was bad news for loaches.
I was certain he'd die, but to my amazement he is once again his spunky self.
<That's wonderful. Adding the carbon must have removed this harmful medication just in the nick of time.>
My dilemma is that the Ick is not gone, the moors once again are developing white spots. I hope you can give me some advice for helping my unlikely trio.
<Salt is the answer, Sandra. Please do read here on treating Ich with salt: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/SaltUseFWArtNeale.htm. It's quite effective, and will be harmless to your fish. Do be sure to treat for the recommended length of time, as just because you can't see it on the fish anymore doesn't mean it's not completely gone. This article states to treat for 7-14 days (that is, to leave the salt in the aquarium for that length of time), and I would agree that 2 weeks is best in order to avoid re-infestation. I also frequently raise temperature to 80 degrees F in the aquarium to speed the life cycle of the parasite, at least for the first week of treatment. Lastly, and this may seem obvious, but I have made the mistake myself, spreading Ich between tanks -- do be sure and allow all implements used in the aquarium (nets, siphons, etc.) to dry completely after use in order to ensure you are not re-introducing the parasite to the system each time you do maintenance.>
Thanks Sandra
<You're welcome! Please write back if you have further questions.
--Melinda>
Re: Ick 9/24/10
<Hi Sandra!>
Thank you Melinda for your advice. I'll try the salt Tx.
<Good. I think you'll be pleased with the results (as will your fish!)>
Is it okay to increase the temp. to 80 with the black moors in the tank?
<Yes, provided you have good circulation. The fish can withstand this temperature for the week, though you may notice they are more active and visibly "hungrier." This is normal -- an effect of the elevated temp.>
I know they are a cold water fish. As for our lovely loach, we didn't bargain for him at all, our dear friend popped him in our tank while we were away. He/she was all alone in their 10gal. They'd had it for 6 yrs.
it's about 3.5 inches.
I'll probably have to find a proper home for him.
<Or provide for him so you can keep him, by increasing tank size/filtration, which you'd need to do anyway, to keep your goldfish... and buying him a couple of buddies. Just a thought -- since you seem to
enjoy him quite a bit!>
Thanks again.
<Glad I could help. Here's a link that I forgot to include last time on Ich, just so you can learn a little more about what you're dealing with: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fwsubwebindex/fwich.htm.>
Sandra
<--Melinda>

Ick, GF w/ ADFs in sys. 9/22/10
Hello and thank you for your time.
I have a 75 gallon freshwater tank with common 7 common goldfish and 4 African Dwarf Frogs. My fish have developed Ick and I am treating them.
<W/ the Hymenochirus removed I hope/trust>
I read on your website that the ADF do not get Ick but cannot tolerate the medicine that will treat my other fish. I have separated them and have started the process of treating my tank.
<Ah, good. I would try/use the time tested (what I do) method of elevated temperature as well or even by itself>
I do not have a QT tank as of now but will after this!

My question is how long after I treat my main tank should I wait to introduce my frogs back?
<A week or so>
I have them in a fish bowl for now. Will they be ok in there?
<Yes... do make up, keep some water in preparation for partial weekly changes... and perhaps float this bowl (tie to the inside) of the goldfish tank to keep it warm. Bob Fenner>

Help- very sick Oranda 9/20/10
Good afternoon:
<Morrow of the next day here now>
I recently purchased three very young goldfish (a black moor, a Lionhead and an Oranda) from a rather disreputable local fish store where I have recently moved. The fish were badly infected with Ich- the staff at the store and I knew the fish were ill when I bought them but was hoping I could save them. Yes, I know. I was so upset at the state of the stores tanks that I couldn't bear to not try to save a couple of fish. They didn't even give me a discount, and would not put up a quarantine sign. Anyways, I digress.
The little black moor succumbed two days ago and tonight the Oranda is looking very ill.
The fish are under quarantine in my 10 gallon hospital tank. I initially used a product called Nox-ich which I found later contains malachite green (I actually believe this is what killed the little moor).
<Is a harsh chemical, but of use here>
Afraid of the toxicity of the Nox-ich, I switched to Rid-Ich and have been using it at the recommended double dose for two days.
<... Is Malachite and Formalin... even harsher: http://www.novalek.com/kordon/ridich/index.htm>
I don't see any Ich on the fish but she is covered with hundreds of very tiny red spots and has laboured breathing. She is sitting at the bottom of the tank and is not interested in food. Her dorsal fin is upright and fins are not clamped which gives me some hope that I might save her. I am not sure if the tiny red spots are damage left from the Ich tomites leaving or perhaps re-infecting the fish. Could I be looking at a concurrent infection or a secondary infection?
<Most likely just a chemical burn of sorts>
I have added some aquarium salt to the water, which hopefully is not contraindicated with the Rid-Ich.
<It is not>
Is there anything that I can do to save this little fish? I have a huge inventory of fish pharmaceuticals at hand that I could try if you feel there is something that might be done.
<Mmm, really at this juncture/point, just time going by... I would monitor nitrogenous waste accumulation, in the event (see the link above) that the Formalin has compromised the biological filtration>
On a bright note, the lemon Lionhead is not exhibiting signs of Ich, despite the fact that he hailed from the same tank. He is undergoing Ich treatment none-the-less.
<Yes... all exposed fishes must need be treated>
Thank you for your excellent advice:
Gina de Almeida
<... Please peruse WWM re Ich, Goldfish systems... BobF>
Help- very sick Oranda Part two 9/20/10
Good afternoon:
<Still earlier AM here>
Please disregard my previous letter. Unfortunately the little Oranda did not live- I am not able to take a picture but it has what looks like a red rash all over its body but the red is more concentrated around the throat, on the Wen and along the rays of the tail and fins. The spots are very small Initially I wondered if it was a complication of the Ich that I was treating for but am wondering if it was Costia. Do you have any ideas?
<Poisoned>
My water parameters were good- this is a hospital tank and as such is not cycled
<Won't work>
but I have been doing small daily water changes and monitoring the ammonia and nitrite closely. I had a very small amount of ammonia and no nitrites.
<Any ammonia is toxic, debilitating>
I have one of the three fish remaining: a yellow Lionhead. He is active and is eating well and has no sign of either Ich or the red rash. However, he was purchased from the same tank that had the heavy Ich infection. While he seems to have escaped the Ich I doubt this is so and he may just have more resistance than the others or I may not be seeing the spots due to his short tail and light colouring.
I am concerned for the Lionhead. What is the best method to treat the tank?
<... for you to read>
I have Ick Attack (not rid-Ich as I mistakenly reported earlier) in his water already.
<Am not a fan of this herbal "remedy">
I would rather use salt/heat but the natural pH of the water here is very high (8.2) and I'm not sure how this will effect the ammonia levels in such a small 10 gallon tank.
<Then you should read... elevated temp. makes ammonia toxicity much higher>
I thoroughly cleaned the tank and changed the filter after the Oranda died so hopefully any free-swimming parasites were reduced.
<... of little use. As long as there are some present, they will reproduce>
If I am dealing with Ich AND another parasite like Costia how should I proceed?
<Malachite Green and Formalin are useful against both species of Protozoans>
How resilient is it? Can it be killed easily or do I need to take special precautions with all of the equipment that was used in this tank?
Thank you:
Gina de Almeida
<Keep reading. B>

Former crew member needs help w/ newest addition to "pet" family: goldfish 5/24/10
Hi Bob et al.,
<Hi Jorie!>
Long time no chat! I miss working with you all, but sadly just haven't had much time. I've been working quite hard to start up my own law firm, The Law Office of Jorie K. Johnson, which focuses on criminal records (I.,e., expungement, sealing and clemency), as well as general criminal defense law. There's just so much out there that law school didn't teach me, especially on the business / marketing side of things...I have virtually no free time these days. Anyway, forgive the shameless plug;-)
<No worries>
I recently decided to convert a 29 gal. BW tank to FW, so that I could keep a couple of my favorite fancy goldfish - the telescopes. I set up the tank and did a fishless cycle for about 3-4 weeks. The tank has an Emperor 330 power filter, as well as some LED light/bubble wand combos. Artificial plants and decorations.

No heater; tank temperature is constant around 70 degrees F. Probably about 2 weeks ago I bought three goldies- one black moor and two calico telescopes.
<Mmm, this will be too much here in time>
I purchased Hikari Gold color enhancing premium goldfish food,
<A good product. I use Spectrum>
and have been feeding that, or alternatively, frozen then thawed bloodworms.
<Mmm, I'd skip on the bloodworms... feed sparingly on any meaty foods>
Based on everything I read, I expected these specialty goldfish to take some time to find the food, but I didn't realize that they would be virtually sightless- or so it seems. Can they see at all with their "telescope eyes"?
<Not well at all>
It doesn't seem like they can, and finding food on the bottom for them is a total crap-shoot.
All were healthy-looking and everything was going well until early yesterday morning. The black moor was laying listlessly on the bottom of the tank; my husband (crew member Chris P.)
<Oh yes... a treasure>
thought it was dead, but after being prodded with a net, it revived itself a bit. Now, it does move about the tank, but is resting at odd angles, including completely faced into the gravel. Since yesterday, I've been scouring the 'net, including your fabulous site, looking for answers, and it seems as though the general consensus is that I haven't been feeding enough vegetable matter to my new fish friends.
<Could be... But much more likely, or at least a significant source of likely trouble is these fish's parasite loads... Goldfish have yet to "disappoint" here, and am given to the poss. of using Carassius coming up.
giving a pitch/presentation on fish pathology. Best to treat for Protozoans and internal and ext. worm possibilities... Metronidazole and Prazi.... really>
I've added Epsom salt (4 tablespoons to the entire tank) to hopefully ease any constipation that the fish might be suffering from. I did a 5 gallon water change yesterday, and another one today. I am using RO/DI water, that has been adjusted with Kent's RO Right and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals pH Adjust (same water I've been using for years in all my fish tanks). Tank's pH is approx. 7.5. I should mention also that I've been using aquarium salt in this tank since the beginning.
<I'd leave off with salt/s, adjusting pH... really more a nuisance than worthwhile>
The black moor doesn't really seem to be improving. He does swim around periodically, but doesn't seem to care about the flakes I sparingly feed earlier this afternoon (in all my stash of fish food, Spectrum New Life flakes + garlic was what I found to have the highest veggie concentration.)
Additionally, he does appear to have a bit of the "pinecone" effect, so dropsy may be a concern. I am planning to blanch a couple of frozen peas for their dinner tonight. Or, alternatively, should I withhold food for a period entirely?
<I'd feed just pellets... sparingly>
I've also read that if the goldfish refuse peas, the daphnia can be used in this situation- do you recommend this or no?
<Can be worthwhile... though as I state, these fish likely have Chilodonella, Flukes... and more>
Granted I'm being extremely vigilant at the moment (perhaps overly so), but I *think* one of the calico telescopes might be having some "floaty bloaty" symptoms (as Sabrina Fullhart, former crew member refers to it). I can't be certain, but it seems as though he's resting in the water at a downward angle at times. This one is continuing to eat, however.
So, what's the deal? Have I picked incredibly difficult fish to care for?
<Actually... yes. Please see Neale's pc. here re:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/goldfish101art.htmWhat else should I be doing?
<The chemicals treatment unfortunately... and such for any other new goldfish introductions, enroute, through isolation system>
Oh, I should mention that after yesterday's 5 gallon water change, ammonia was at 0 ppm, nitrite and nitrates also at 0- *but*, maybe this is not accurate, as I added some water conditioner, just to be safe.
Any advice at all would be great. I love my little googly-eyed friends and don't want to lose them!
Thanks in advance,
Jorie
<Good to hear from you. Hello to Chris... wish we were back in HI all diving... BobF>

Re: Former crew member needs help w/ newest addition to "pet" family: goldfish 5/24/10
<<Responses below>>
Hi Bob et al.,
<Hi Jorie!>
Long time no chat! I miss working with you all, but sadly just haven't had much time. I've been working quite hard to start up my own law firm, The Law Office of Jorie K. Johnson, which focuses on criminal records (I.,e., expungement, sealing and clemency), as well as general criminal defense law. There's just so much out there that law school didn't teach me, especially on the business / marketing side of things...I have virtually no free time these days. Anyway, forgive the shameless plug;-)
<No worries>
I recently decided to convert a 29 gal. BW tank to FW, so that I could keep a couple of my favorite fancy goldfish - the telescopes. I set up the tank and did a fishless cycle for about 3-4 weeks. The tank has an Emperor 330 power filter, as well as some LED light/bubble wand combos. Artificial plants and decorations.

<<You say "simple", but I haven't ever had success w/ these types of stem plants. I realize the fishies need greens in their diet; would an acceptable alternative be to add a few stems for food periodically, but not attempt to actually grow them?>>
>Mmm, better to go w/ "the real thing"... "No success" w/ these may well spell trouble (canary in a cave ref.)<
No heater; tank temperature is constant around 70 degrees F. Probably about 2 weeks ago I bought three goldies- one black moor and two calico telescopes.
<Mmm, this will be too much here in time>
<<Follow-up question re: fancy goldfish temperature requirements- articles are kind of all over the board here. General consensus seems to be that "fancies" need water temperatures than standard goldfish...do you think my temp. is appropriate?>>
>Likely fine... I have heaters w/ my fancy goldfish, set low, just in case temp.s drop ambiently. If you have one about, I'd add it
and have been feeding that, or alternatively, frozen then thawed bloodworms.
<Mmm, I'd skip on the bloodworms... feed sparingly on any meaty foods>
<<Gotcha. Have you ever tried small bits of a sinking veggie wafer, such as Omega One's Veggie Rounds? My cories love these, as do the swordtails they live with. Just a thought to potentially up veggie intake for the goldfish.>>
Based on everything I read, I expected these specialty goldfish to take some time to find the food, but I didn't realize that they would be virtually sightless- or so it seems. Can they see at all with their "telescope eyes"?
<Not well at all>
It doesn't seem like they can, and finding food on the bottom for them is a total crap-shoot.
All were healthy-looking and everything was going well until early yesterday morning. The black moor was laying listlessly on the bottom of the tank; my husband (crew member Chris P.)
<Oh yes... a treasure>
<<LOL- I do love my hubbie, but "treasure??" HA, perhaps we've found a new nickname for him;-0 All joking aside, he does give wonderful advice on fishies...I asked him to answer my query, but he wouldn't...he said he would defer to the "experts" like you, Neale, etc.>>
>We would be diminished w/o Chris' help<
thought it was dead, but after being prodded with a net, it revived itself
a bit. Now, it does move about the tank, but is resting at odd angles, including completely faced into the gravel. Since yesterday, I've been scouring the 'net, including your fabulous site, looking for answers, and it seems as though the general consensus is that I haven't been feeding enough vegetable matter to my new fish friends.
<Could be... But much more likely, or at least a significant source of likely trouble is these fish's parasite loads... Goldfish have yet to "disappoint" here, and am given to the poss. of using Carassius coming up.
giving a pitch/presentation on fish pathology. Best to treat for Protozoans and internal and ext. worm possibilities... Metronidazole and Prazi.... really>
<<Sorry, you lost me on the Carassius bit...
>The genus of goldfish<
As far as treating, I must say that the fish looked very ill this morning, lying near the bottom with it's spine bent nearly in half. Due to the fact that hubby has QT tank tied up at the moment w/ a Perc. and six-line wrasse he recently acquired, I opted to put the poor fish out of its misery...it's in a cup of tank water with clove oil at the moment. Poor little guy:-(>>
I've added Epsom salt (4 tablespoons to the entire tank) to hopefully ease any constipation that the fish might be suffering from. I did a 5 gallon
water change yesterday, and another one today. I am using RO/DI water, that has been adjusted with Kent's RO Right and Aquarium Pharmaceuticals pH
Adjust (same water I've been using for years in all my fish tanks). Tank's pH is approx. 7.5. I should mention also that I've been using aquarium salt in this tank since the beginning.
<I'd leave off with salt/s, adjusting pH... really more a nuisance than worthwhile>
<<OK.>>
The black moor doesn't really seem to be improving. He does swim around periodically, but doesn't seem to care about the flakes I sparingly feed earlier this afternoon (in all my stash of fish food, Spectrum New Life flakes + garlic was what I found to have the highest veggie concentration.)
Additionally, he does appear to have a bit of the "pinecone" effect, so dropsy may be a concern. I am planning to blanch a couple of frozen peas for their dinner tonight. Or, alternatively, should I withhold food for a period entirely?
<I'd feed just pellets... sparingly>
<<I did feed the tank peas last night, prior to hearing back from you. The two calicos were a bit puzzled at first, but once I got the peas cut small enough for them (about 1/8 - 1/16 of a pea...quite hard to cut that small!), I'm pretty sure they ate them. They kept sucking them into their mouths, "chewing" for a bit, then spitting out...over and over and over again. Finally, the peas seemed to disappear, so I assume they got eaten.
The black moor was beyond the point of wanting to eat anything...>>
I've also read that if the goldfish refuse peas, the daphnia can be used in this situation- do you recommend this or no?
<Can be worthwhile... though as I state, these fish likely have Chilodonella, Flukes... and more>
<<How long would it take for a fish affected with these parasites to become ill? Could it be as long as 2 weeks (how long I've had the fish for)?>>
>Usually a few days to weeks. Likely most all such systems have parasite loads... debilitating rather than deadly<
Granted I'm being extremely vigilant at the moment (perhaps overly so), but I *think* one of the calico telescopes might be having some "floaty bloaty" symptoms (as Sabrina Fullhart, former crew member refers to it). I can't be certain, but it seems as though he's resting in the water at a downward angle at times. This one is continuing to eat, however.
So, what's the deal? Have I picked incredibly difficult fish to care for?
<Actually... yes. Please see Neale's pc. here re:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/goldfish101art.htm
<<Yes, did see this. I know fancy goldfish aren't to be considered "beginner's fish", but I didn't realize how difficult they can be. Glad I didn't decide to go with the celestial I was originally wanting...>>
What else should I be doing?
<The chemicals treatment unfortunately... and such for any other new goldfish introductions, enroute, through isolation system>
<<Are you suggesting prophylactic treatment for all new acquisitions?
>Yes, for all goldfish<
For how long? And, just one of the treatments (i.e., Metronidazole), not both, correct?>>
>Covered on WWM<
Oh, I should mention that after yesterday's 5 gallon water change, ammonia was at 0 ppm, nitrite and nitrates also at 0- *but*, maybe this is not accurate, as I added some water conditioner, just to be safe.
Any advice at all would be great. I love my little googly-eyed friends and don't want to lose them!
Thanks in advance,
Jorie
<Good to hear from you. Hello to Chris... wish we were back in HI all diving... BobF>
<<Definitely! We likely won't be able to afford traveling anywhere nice this summer, but are thinking about maybe heading up to Devil's Lake in Baraboo, Wisconsin for a little freshwater lake diving...you're welcome to join!! Have you been out in HI at all recently? Any other diving trips?>>
>Not to HI for more than a year. Pete, Jack and I sold the Mamalahoa prop., and my triplex there is trouble... Oh! But we/WWM and friends may well go diving post MACNA in Orlando early Sept... Interested?<
<<Thanks for the help, Bobster. Keep in touch! Any plans to come out this way anytime soon? I do wish IMAC were still going:-(>>
>Me too... I think the "Western" vers. of DennisG's dream is caput as well.
Cheers, BobF, pet-fish ichthyologist<
Jorie K. Johnson
Attorney at Law

Goldfish with internal parasites 1/22/10
Good morning:
<Hello,>
I am currently treating my fancy goldfish for intestinal parasites using Jungle anti-parasite medicated food (which contains both Metronidazole and Praziquantel). I have just completed the first three-day course of the medication but my fish is still extremely constipated, with very thin, clear, trailing feces.
<If the faeces are essentially brown, this is more likely constipation. If the faeces are transparent, then that tends to imply irritation of the gut wall, typically by internal protozoan parasites.>
Initially, the feces looked to contain tiny white dots (perhaps eggs?) but I do not currently have access to a microscope to confirm this observation.

He had a mashed pea and a small amount of broccoli this evening but it has not helped his condition. I am wondering if I should be using a stronger concentration of Metronidazole. The Jungle products do not list ingredients on the container so I am not certain what strength I am currently feeding but I believe it is quite mild.
<Do read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/metranidazole.htm
Recommended doses are listed.>
This problem has persisted since I purchased the fish in December. The peas occasionally assist his condition but it always returns. I have an API product that contains both Metronidazole and Prazi in powder form (to be added directly to the water) but I am not sure if this form of delivery is as effective as the medicated food.
<Medicated food better.>
I do have another three courses to go with the Jungle product, but would like to resolve this problem in the fastest and safest way possible. My water parameters are currently reading ammonia: 0 nitrites 0 and nitrates 10. The fish has a tank-mate who has not exhibited any unusual symptoms.
Both fish are eating well. Would you advise continuing with the Jungle treatment (I have another three weeks remaining to complete the recommended dosage) or is there a more effective product I might try?
Thank you for your advice!
Gina
<Cheers, Neale.>

Calico Fancy Tailed Gold Fish, Lernaea, more hlth. issues 11/24/09
Hi Crew
<Hello,>
Please could you help?
<Will try.>
I purchased a Calico, Red Cap Oranda Gold Fish 18 days ago. He is about 14 centimeters in length.
<Good size!>
He was put into a quarantine, when purchased. Its a 40 liter tank and all basics in water quality have been checked and are good.
<Good? Not in a 40 litre tank they're not. Seriously, this tank IS TOO SMALL for a Goldfish this size. Indeed, it's too small for a Goldfish of any size. I cannot stress this point too strongly. Minimum aquarium size for Goldfish is around 110 litres.>
On close inspection when I got his home I discovered he had 3 anchor worms.
I am treating with Parazin. First treatment of 14 days released 2 of the worms. (I did a 50% water changed after completion of the first 14 day treatment), waited 48 hours, and now have added a second table of Parazin, for a second 14 day treatment to try and rid him of the one stubborn anchor worm. I have also added 1 teaspoon of salt, per 2 liters of water.
<Okay.>
My concern is he also has two dark black foreign clumps of matter, (Never seen this before) about 2 mm in size, embedded into his Wen, both, just above his right eye.
<Black specks on Goldfish are typically ammonia burns. They can be caused by other types of physical damage, but ammonia burns are the most common.
Because the aquarium is so small, I have little doubt that water quality is either the direct cause or aggravating whatever background problem there might be.>
These were present when I bought him, don't seem to worry him and have not changed is size, colour or shape, over the 18 day period. There are no other visible signs of these black crustaceans anywhere on his body. It is more visible with the first 2 days of treatment of using the Parazin, as the flesh directly above these spots, seem to open up a little, giving a visual of the dark black spots embedded into the skin. They are berried about 2mm into the skin. By day 3 of the Parazin treatment, the (Hole) tiny opening seems to close, and the black spots are once again covered by the flesh of his Wen and look like dark black shadows, under his orange Wen, almost undetectable.
He is eating well, has a varied diet of green peas, bloodworm, daphnia, flake and pellets, and on the whole, looks pretty healthy, swimming actively with his dorsal fin extended.
Do you have any idea what this would be? and what and how I could treat it.
<Do read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/goldfish101art.htm
Almost all problems with Goldfish come down to people keeping them badly.>
Your assistance is appreciated ....
Many Thanks
Petrina
<Happy to help. Good luck, Neale.>

Sick goldfish - suspected velvet, but maybe not? 10/31/09
Hello Wet Web Crew,
<Hello Sara,>
Hope all's well with you.
<Indeed it is.>
I wonder if we could pick your brains on this one. Ten days ago our comet Arthur became jumpy. Violent somersaults, fast and erratic movements, breaking through the surface of the water... his tank-mate Daphne (redcap Oranda) seemed likewise agitated, but hard to say if she was herself displaying a symptom or was being stressed by his extreme behaviour.
<Can be a water quality issue, including sudden pH changes, particularly acidification. But there are other causes, including parasites irritating the gills as well as breeding season "high spirits".>
We initially suspected a nitrogen spike, but on inspection nitrite and ammonia were zero. Nitrate had crept up, and something was clearly wrong, so we did a 50% water change. Jumpiness continues, in between which both fish sit in corner making a strange shimmering twitchy movement - not flecking or scratching but as if wriggling.
<Ah, does seem like irritation of the gills.>
On close inspection we thought we could see some slight glittery iridescence - hard to tell for sure, and certainly not Whitespot, but combined with the other symptoms we diagnosed velvet and began treating with EsHa Exit for 3 days, adding a total of 130g of aquarium salt over two days (35 litre tank), and overlapping on day 3 with EsHa 2000, for three days.
<Shouldn't really need to use both salt and medication, though Goldfish being salt-tolerant, I can't see there being any obvious reason why this combination would cause harm. But that said, do always bear in mind medications (as opposed to salt) can be toxic to fish. So mixing eSHa EXIT and eSHa 2000 at the same time isn't something I'd recommend, partly because they may react with each other, and partly because overlapping ingredients may take the concentration of a particular ingredient above safe levels.>
Instructions tell us we can do a second round of Exit 5 days after the first course finishes, so our plan was to do an aggressive water change on Sunday and start the treatment again.
<Fine.>
We're keeping the tank dark and is always slightly warm, two pump filters going (no carbon or Zeolite), and have removed plants and ornaments. They are feeding and excreting fine (frozen daphnia, peas, Nori) although I think the comet isn't competing as well as usual.
<Maybe the case if he isn't well, but wouldn't read too much into this just yet.>
In the last few hours, comet has developed little black line-like markings on gills and jaw, and does look slightly discoloured around the gills - a yellowy green iridescence like on fish at the fishmongers. Could be bruising from all the jumping about, but I've not seen it before.
<Nor I.>
As of 5 min.s ago, nitrite zero, nitrate trace, pH 7.6.
<Fine.>
The real question is whether we've correctly diagnose and treated... if not, what do you think it is and what should we do, and if so, what's the best move forward?
<On the whole eSHa EXIT does a good job against both Whitespot and Velvet, so if these are issues, it should catch them. Goldfish are fairly nitrate tolerant, and provided levels weren't above 50 mg/l, I'd not expect them to get sick. Likewise, they do well in hard, basic water, so if you have such water conditions, they should be happy and the risks of sudden acidification shouldn't be very great. An exception to this is if you have large quantities of plants (like Vallisneria and Elodea) that remove bicarbonate from the water; under strong lighting, these can soften water quickly, allowing pH to fluctuate rapidly.>
We'd greatly appreciate your opinion on this.
Many thanks and very best wishes,
Sara
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Sick goldfish - suspected velvet, but maybe not? 11/1/09
Thanks Neale, v. interesting. Do you think salt for the gills and no more chemicals might be the way to go?
<Would complete the course of anti-Velvet/Ick medication you are on.
There's little use stopping halfway. Wouldn't use an anti-bacterial medication (like eSHa 2000) unless there were good reasons to do so. Salt isn't a miracle cure, and doesn't "help the gills" in any meaningful way.
Salt is specifically used to treat Ick (= Whitespot), and saltwater dips (as apposed to additions to the tank) are useful prior to physical removal of skin lice and flukes. Salt also helps detoxify nitrite and nitrate in
the short term. But ideas about salt helping "stimulate slime production" or "restore osmotic balance" are largely based on misunderstandings of the science. Goldfish evolved as freshwater fish, and always, repeat ALWAYS, do better in hard, basic freshwater conditions.>
Also, very interesting what you say about lighting and elodea... We do have these, although I did remove plants and kept the tank dark when I suspected velvet... Maybe this exacerbated the situation.
<Elodea will soften water, but this is only an issue if your water is pretty soft to begin with, and/or you don't do regular water changes to restore the background level of carbonate hardness. Ordinarily it's a
harmless plant that provides Goldfish something fibrous for them to eat.>
Will keep a closer eye on pH... Thanks again! Xxx
<Cheers, Neale.>

Goldfish (10 gallon tank; death, mayhem) 9/29/2009
Hi, I HAD 2 fancy goldfish that recently got Ich and died.
<Fish rarely die from Ick. It's easy to cure and takes a long time to kill fish. If they really did die from Ick, you were doing *a lot* of stuff wrong. So let's review what Goldfish need. They need an aquarium at least
30 gallons in size, with a mature filter of reasonable size (recommendation: at least 4, and preferably 6, times the volume of the aquarium in turnover, so a 30 gallon tank would need a filter rated at not less than 4 x 30 = 120 gallons per hour, and preferably 6 x 30 = 180 gallons per hour). Water chemistry should be hard and basic; aim for pH 7.5-8, 10-20 degrees dH. Do not use water from a domestic water softener, do not use distilled water. Salt is not required, but water conditioner should always be used. Diet should be primarily green foods, with pellets and flake used as a minority component. Most Goldfish die prematurely because their keepers *kill them*. Read up on their needs, and act accordingly.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/goldfish101art.htm
They're nice pets, but sadly too many people buy them without knowing the first thing about their needs. They're demanding animals, and if you can't provide what they need, then try keeping something else, like a pot plant or something. Seriously. I'm not kidding. Goldfish are really quite hard work, and if you don't have the funds, time, dorm room space, or whatever, don't keep them.>
I treated with medication and water changes, but they still died. My question is how do I kill the Ich that is still in my 10 gall aquarium with no fish??
<10 gallons is too small for Goldfish.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_5/volume_5_3/stocking.htm
>
and how long can I wait until I put new fish in???
<You need to keep the filter mature by adding fish food every couple of days. Leave the aquarium devoid of fish ("fallow") for about 2, ideally 4, weeks to guarantee all the Ick is gone. Add new livestock carefully, using a nitrite test kit to make sure the filter was properly maintained. Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Goldfish (10 gallon tank; death, mayhem) 9/29/2009
Thank you Neale for the answer.
<Happy to help.>
I am sorry to the other persons who answered but my fish did die from Ick, they had all the warning signs and the white spots.
<I'm not saying Ick doesn't eventually kill fish if left untreated, but that there's several weeks before that happens where fish as large as Goldfish are concerned. So from the time you spot the first white spots to
the point where the fish dies, there's ample time to identify the disease, and then to treat it successfully.>
Before these 2 fish I had another 2 fancy goldfish and they lived for 3 and four years in my 10 gallon tank, so I don't know what your talking about "they didn't die from Ich" and "I killed them".
<What I'm talking about is this: Ick doesn't appear in four year old aquaria out of the blue. It usually turns up when new fish are introduced. Once the tank is treated to kill the Ick, it will never come back unless
introduced once more. But this is really irrelevant. The fact is you cannot keep two Goldfish in a 10 gallon tank. If you think you can, you're deluding yourself. All I can do is tell people the facts, like a doctor
would in a clinic. If doctors tell you smoking is bad, and that you should eat more vegetables, and do more exercise, it's ultimately up to you whether you listen to their good advice or carry on doing the wrong thing.
The same thing here. Goldfish should live for at least 20 years in captivity, so if yours died after 4 years, then they died very, very prematurely. Your first fish died after four years, and then these fish after three. What more do you want me to say? That there's an evil fish-killing ghost living in your house? Seriously, if you want to kid yourself nothing is wrong, then that's your choice, but it's unfortunate that you're going to carry on killing fish in the meanwhile. Most ignorance is willful, and this is a classic example. So, once more, just to be clear: you cannot keep Goldfish in 10 gallon aquaria. Period. End of discussion.
The reasons your fish died were most likely associated with this simple fact, and if you don't want to accept that fact, then there's nothing more I can do to help you. All I want to do is help the animals in your care.>
Sorry but your wrong.
<It's actually "you are wrong" or "you're wrong" but since I'm right and it's you that's wrong, I think we'll let that pass for now. Good luck, *Neale.>
Re: Goldfish (10 gallon tank; death, mayhem)
Sorry but your wrong.
<Oh, and Gracen, you might check over the other messages today. One of my correspondents begins "I am in awe! My little fish is now swimming again."
So, I do know what I'm doing. Listen up and learn how to keep fish properly, or else walk out the door and make your own mistakes. Your move.
Cheers, Neale.>

Copepod or parasite on Calico Ryukin Great website and FAQ section, folks! <Thank you> I recently picked up a gorgeous calico Ryukin for my newly setup goldfish tank. After many years of tropical freshwater and marine setups, I'm back to my first love, goldfish! <Ah, outstanding... one of my fave petfish statements is: "Most people start with goldfish, and if they live long enough, well enough (go through cichlids, exotics, marine...) they end up back with goldfish"> Three 3-inch goldies in a 60 gallon at the moment. Bio-bed still being established and there's a dual mechanical filtration setup (undergravel plus over tank). <Some folks would encourage getting rid of the UG> The calico looks and acts fine. No stress whatsoever. So it was with a bit of surprise that I noticed this 1-2 mm nearly invisible creature on it's caudal tail. I'm surprised I missed it while examining the fishy. Mind you, the calico is multi-colored so it was a challenge. <Neat, and good pic> With a tweezers, a Q-tip, bowl of aquarium water and shaky hands, I was able to scrape this little baddie of the tail and take a pic of it (ahh...the wonders of a digital camera!). Any idea what I'm dealing with here? (pic attached) The calico's two other companions (a feisty black moor and a dopey Lionhead) are just fine and dandy. Thanks in advance! Regards, Ted <Yes... is actually a Branchiuran, genus Argulus, a "fish louse"... Please place these terms in your search tools... and look for a DTHP or Dimilin based treatment (there are other, acetylcholinesterase inhibitor/insecticides as well) to take out the less than adult parasitic forms that are likely now in your system. Bob Fenner>

Re: Copepod or parasite on Calico Ryukin Thank you for the prompt reply. <Welcome> After much research regarding your alternatives, I will look into getting my hands on some Dimilin (otherwise known as Diflubenzuron, as I just learned!) <Yes> as it is the only one that will not affect my bio filter. Apparently, DTHP (otherwise known as Dylox, D50, Dipterex, Masoten, Trichlorofon, Foschlor or Neguvon) does affect the bio bed; not a good thing in my eyes for entire tank treatments. <Mmm, DTHP is about as efficacious as Dimilin in regard to nitrification> A very interesting piece of tidbit I've learned from my research. Some people swear by the use of Tin-Foil Barbs as a way to control fish lice. <Interesting... had not heard this before> Yes, it is a myth to others, but some of the posts I've seen appear to back up this claim. Obviously, it would work in ponds for 12" Koi, but I'm curious as to what would happen if I plopped in a small barb in my tank with my 3-4" goldies? Might be worth exploring. <Mmm, their mouths are quite small...> One more question. Your initial reply mentioned that some folks would discourage against the use of an UG filter. Why would that be? <Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/ug5proscons.htm and the linked files (in blue, above)> I see it as a way to have a primary mechanical filter (in addition to the tank mounted one) and with a powerhead, there is aerobic activity (to foster the bio filter) as opposed to anaerobic activity (very very bad) with no water flow through the gravel. We all agree goldies are messy. Detritus will end up in the gravel no matter what. But at least with an UG filter, aerobic activity can take place. <Trouble... in regards to reductive nature principally here, though TBC's are elevated as well, with concomitant metabolite challenges.> Thanks for your valuable advice, once again! Even a vet like me can always learn more. :) Ted <Ah, good. Bob Fenner>

Treat for Ich, End Up With Fin Rot Hi, My comet goldfish is sick (I think). You see, he had Ick so I treated him with Aquarium Products Quick Cure. He seemed to be getting better before his tail seemed to shed and turned white. The white was almost all gone but I came home today and it had gotten a bit whiter and the end of the tail looked like a black/red color. Is this Normal results for the medicine? Tomorrow I'm going to replace half of the water in the tank because it has been 6 days which the medicine says to wait until to replace the water. Should I still do this? Is my Fish just getting better or is this fin rot or something? Please send me information as soon as possible! I don't want my little fishy to pass away! Other information: My comet goldfish is in a 10 gallon tank by himself. I have removed the filter cartridge because it had charcoal in it and the medicine couldn't get to the fish with it in there. The filter is still working though. I am feeding him Wardley Tropical Flakes right now and he seems to be eating alright. He's swimming alright now and he still acts the same. There are no other fish with him. I REALLY HOPE YOU CAN HELP ME Shelby <Are you sure he had Ich? It would show as tiny white spots on the fish. If he did it is important to run the full course of treatment. Don't stop just because the spots are gone. It will come back. But you can still do water changes. You just have to replace the meds in the new water. If you're doing a 50% water change, put a half dose in before you add it to the tank. The meds can cause an ammonia spike that could cause the fin problems your seeing, so water changes are very important. If you did not see the Ich spots, then discontinue the meds and do daily 50% water changes for a week. Add one tbls of aquarium salt for every 3 gallons of water to help him heal. Don>

Death of my Oranda Hi, I am Brijesh and have about 8 Oranda (9 before) in a 60l tank. <Too crowded...> One of the Orandas died. Before it died it showed all signs of flukes. It was flash- dancing, isolating itself, had fins close to its body and was not eating anything. Fins were disintegrated. The water was clean and I have a UG filter running 24/ 7. <Better to not use UG filters with goldfish... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshsystems.htm> I tried the blue medicine and gave it a potassium permanganate bath and had kept it in a separate bowl, but it died. Now I am afraid if others follow. I can see some of them coming near the UG filter's outlet and sucking the bubbles. Though there are no other signs of any sort. What can I do to prevent fluke and if there are flukes how can I treat them? <... much to say here... first, I doubt if you have monogenetic Trematodes... Second, you need to look into water quality issues... test kits, modifying their water to keep your goldfish healthy... you want slightly elevated pH, some alkaline reserve... Thirdly, get rid of the filter type you have and look into at least one good-sized hang on filter... for the reasons you will find from reading the above citation. Fourth and most importantly, you need to either trade out all but two of these fish or get a much larger system... they need about 40 litres of water per individual to do well. Bob Fenner>

New Print and eBook on Amazon

Goldfish Success
What it takes to keep goldfish healthy long-term

by Robert (Bob) Fenner