ick in an uncycled tank, Oranda treated with heat and salt. acidity in water. Iatrogenic troubles, reading  03/16/08
FW Daily?
<? all are posted>
Hello. First, thank you for your website, which I have perused many times over the last 2 years while getting interested in keeping fish. I have mainly been interested in the cold water section, as my parents have a pond and I have been helping them with their Shubunkin issues.
My interest in their fish led me to get really interested in aquatic life in general, particularly in goldfish.
<Ahh!>
Now to my current issue which concerns my new fish, and temporary tank.
I am building a 55 gallon tank for them next week when I get paid. Last week on Friday, I bought 2 x >1.5" Orandas and placed in a 20L tank with filter (un-primed, but dosed with Stress-Zyme)
<Mmmm, this won't work... the system needs to be cycled>
and an air-stone, and thermometer. The filter has a heater, so I switched it to minimum (18C), for a stable temp
<Good>
(it can get cold in our house at night). They were acclimatised to the temp for one hour in the bag and then I mixed tank water into the bag three times over the next hour, then released them (with the water which I now regret). I added dissolved rock salt to 0.1ppm, to help them settle down. I kept the tank light off until day 2. Their daily routine is (and has been since): curtains open, 30 minutes before tank light which is on for 8 hours, then tank light off while room light on for an hour, then room light off; and darkness until morning. I didn't feed until following day and gave them cucumber. Next day, a part of a pea, next day a blanched leaf of romaine lettuce and dried blood-worm, next day some dried Nori which I soaked first. I noticed red-cap fish flashing against the airline tube on the 2nd day. The other is an orange Oranda.
From the outset, I checked parameters 3 times a day (pH, ammonia, nitrite, salt level, occasionally checking nitrate). Their water was always conditioned with dechloriminator at water-change time (and upon the first tank-fill). I changed 25% per day. On the 4th day I started to see ammonia, so I did PWC partial water change, and added a drop of ammo-lock.
<This is only a temporary fix...>
I used Stress-Zyme to help prime the filter.
<Won't do this>
The red-cap was flashing still. I was still feeding lightly with greens as above, including blanched spinach.
Back to the 3rd day, I was shocked to see my red-cap covered in white spots. I Googled, diagnosed Ich, and Googled some more. I added more salt up to 0.2ppm.
<Not an effective cure...>
The feeding continued, very lightly, with different greens.
On 4th day, added more salt up to 0.3ppm and increased the temperature slowly. Following days; I kept up with parameter tests, increasing temperature until 29C over two days. The water was going more and more acid, down to between 6.5/7.0 (my tap water comes out at 7.5). I also noticed fluctuation in temperature, so bought a second heater, and installed it too. I set it to 29.5C,
<!>
and bought another thermometer.
The temp in the tank was stable at 30C on the thermometers and the salinity was stable at 0.3ppm.
Both fish seemed fine, no gasping for oxygen, I was watching them day-in, day-out. Plenty of aeration, filter making a waterfall, bubbles breaking the surface well. On the 5th day, the infected fish started losing its spots, and on the 7th they were all gone (so I am timing 70 hours until I turn the heat down gradually, or earlier if necessary, or later if possible). Also, the few black coloured ammonia burns that only the red-cap had, started to go away. Both their appetites are great, they try to eat my fingers when I put them on the surface.
<A good sign>
The water was beginning to smell a bit rich, I thought it must be the heat. Not bad smelling, but rich. Organic and a bit fishy. Some slight foaming around the tank corners.
Last night (day 8), the pH was down to 6 (yellow on test card) with only another 2 days to go before I start to lower the heat over a period of days. So I tried not to panic, and decided to do an immediate PWC. I looked at my change-water, already heated to the correct temperature and matched in salinity, and decided to throw it, and get some fresh. The reason being, I used the hot tap to fill it, and let it cool rather than use the cold tap, just for convenience. I panicked that the carbonates were being depleted with this method,
<You are wise here>
and I didn't want to add more acid water, or rather water which wouldn't buffer. So, I mixed fresh cold and warm water together, aware that I should err on the side of caution with pH, and added the salt as before, and heat, and dechlored it.
Meanwhile, still panicking, I thought I would add the tiniest pinch of bicarb, premixed with a little water. Well, I tested the tank 5 minutes later and the result was a little more green, but still green-yellow 6.5. This could have been a whole .5 raise, and of course I felt terrible that I could have altered it too much, too fast. I kept the lights dimmed in the room the whole time to keep the fish calm. But I think I saw one of them go upside down in the bubble stream (the orange one who didn't get the Ich). The red-cap seemed fine. I regret adding it, because I read afterwards on the net, that goldfish will tolerate a pH down to 6 if it was gradual, but on the other hand, I heard that Orandas were more sensitive than other goldfish. I learned about panicking after I did this.
I kept the lights dimmed, but sat and watched for a while. Only the orange fish was acting abnormally, although I could have been imagining it. It seemed to be dazed, and rather than resting, it was just glass-staring and going to the corner and back, and repeating. The red-cap seemed fine, perusing the gravel looking for things, like he does at night, in dim light. After a while, I put a bit more light on and approached the tank. They were both full of life, and excited to see me. I talked to them a while, then checked the temperature of my change-over water. It was matched, so I did a 25% change, checked the pH again, it was still green-yellow 6.5.
<No worries>
My plan for the next day (now this morning), was to do 4 or 5 small small water changes throughout the day. I want to reduce any DOC (concerned about the smell and acids) and get any poop from the bottom before it goes acid. I will continue with this the following days, and see if the pH rises any. Otherwise, it must be my Dechlor, or ammo-remover, or bio-load turning the water acid. I was leaning toward ammo-lock and bio-load. The fish will have to fast until I've worked it out.
This morning at 8 am, checked the pH and its more orange-yellow!!! I panic again. I don't think under 6 is going to be good for my fish. I added the tiniest pinch of bicarb this time, more diluted in filtered water, and dripped half the mix in the water, then a 25% water change too. I added some activated carbon but there is no room in my filter because I put a lot of filter wool in it, so I placed 3 pieces in the various currents in the tank. It then occurred to me to flush the filter media with temperature-matched salinity-matched dechlored water.
Having done that into a waste bucket, I now know where most of the problem was coming from. There was a green leaf salad and waste in there (the Nori, and possibly bits of cucumber, and green poo), so I flushed it out of the media, and replaced the filter. The foaming on the water has reduced, as has the smell. Just more water changes today are planned and panic over, I'm sure. I also stood by with the net, because my fish were pooing spinach like machines.
Any more pH rises when I change water should be gentle with smaller / more frequent water changes, and any acids in the water are now minimised I hope - wouldn't you say?
<Mmm, no... see below>
The carbonates in the water won't be eaten so quickly too, but I don't want the pH to get too far back to neutral until the ammonia phase is over.
An hour later (now), tested for ammonia and it was up to 0.25.
<... toxic...>
My change-water Isn't heated yet, so added a drop of ammo-lock. Not worried too much as the pH is still 6.5. ; then dosed the filter with Stress-Zyme.
In another hour, will do a 25% change, and test the ammonia and pH. if the pH is still 6.5, I will do another 25% (or less) a bit later ??, and remove the carbon.
Update: have done the above water change, pH 6.5, ammonia between 0 and 0.25 - slightly green coloured.
This is all notes as I've gone along, from about day 5, written up to give to you for help. If you can offer me any advice on how to get through the next days, and help me out with this fear that it's all going to go wrong, I'd really appreciate it. My fish seem perfectly well, I just want them to stay that way.
Thanks very much, David.
<Troubles... initially... This volume is too small for these fish... it wasn't, isn't cycled... Your reliance on chemical treatments won't work to adjust for nitrogenous accumulation... the Salt... I'd be setting up the 55 gallon, using a bacterial prep. to cycle it stat.! And moving these goldfish ASAP. Bob Fenner>

Red eye, Goldfish... infection or genetics?  2/1/08
Wet Web Media Crew.
I have a yellow colored two year old goldfish that has red rings around the pupils of both eyes. Fish is otherwise healthy along with 12 other fish in an 80 gal tank. What is causing the red?
Bud
<Greetings. Almost certainly an opportunistic bacterial infection or irritation caused by something in the water, but bloody eyes are also a symptom of Fish TB. Now, Fish TB is very rare in freshwater aquaria, and almost always goes along with emaciation. Goldfish are one of the species known to contract Fish TB which is why I mention it. Anyway, the much more likely issue is mechanical damage, perhaps caused by rough handling, followed be a secondary infection. While an 80 gallon tank is a nice size, you don't say how big those twelve other fish are, and it would not be impossible for water conditions to be variable or downright poor. So I'd be checking the nitrite level first, and then also the pH to see that water chemistry is stable. Goldfish don't like acidic conditions, and overstocked tanks can be extremely prone to acidification. Under poor/variable water conditions, secondary infections become a problem, and that's likely what's happening here. Cheers, Neale.> <<Might well be just a heritable characteristic... No worries if so. BobF>>

Re: Red Eyed Fish, goldfish... dis. or hereditary characteristic?  2/1/08
Neale:
<Bud,>
Sorry, should have given you more information. Test the water two times a month for ph, ammonia, nitrites. The water is from a well and passed through a water softener and is alkaline (pH) of 8,0 is common.
<I'm dead against domestic water softeners for aquaria. Plain vanilla "liquid rock" a 20 degrees dH and pH 8.2 is pretty common in Southern England, and Goldfish LOVE THE STUFF! Domestic water softeners replace (temporary) hardness with sodium salts, and this creates something few fish encounter in the wild. So while it seems better because it's "soft" it actually isn't like real soft water out of the Amazon, say, but something very different.>
Ammonia tests (0) and do Nitrites.
<Good.>
Change the water 50% every month and every third month 100% to clean the tank.
<Odd. I'd go with 25-50% per week, and wouldn't empty the tank at all. Stirring the gravel with a bamboo cane or similar, while trawling about with a siphon, should suck out the detritus perfectly well.>
I do save 20 gals of the old water to put into the new water and also add just 1/2 of the recommended salt, one Tbsp. for 10 gals of water.
<Irrelevant. Goldfish don't need salt, and I'd HEARTILY recommend you stop creating this weird sodium-rich/mineral-poor water. Instead just use well water, with dechlorinator of course. Salt isn't recommended by me or really anyone else I know who writes about fish professionally. It's Old School. What salt does is mitigate against nitrite and nitrate, and if you don't do enough water changes or have a poor filter, that's useful. But salt also places an abnormal strain on the osmoregulatory system of freshwater fish. Some fish don't care about this (including, as it happens, Goldfish, which are quite tolerant of brackish water) but on the whole it doesn't help. I'd sooner do big water changes with plain vanilla water rather than smaller water changes with stuff like salt and (ever worse) carbon in the filter. Both salt and carbon are more about sending money to salt and carbon manufacturers than actually keeping your fish healthy.>
I have super aeration and filtration.
<Good.>
BioZyme is also added to the new water.
<No need for extra bacteria or bacteria "tonics" after water changes. Again, mostly a con.>
Size of the fish, All the fish are between 3 and 5 inches. Most are 4 years old or older. I move the fish to an outside 200 gal. pond in mid June and back to the tank in mid October. Have lost only one fish in three years.
<Sounds good. Tell me, how similar, or otherwise, is the water in the pond compared to the water in the aquarium.>
I have the funny feeling that the red eyed fish may be almost blind or is blind and with the exception of the red eyes is healthy.
<If the fish is blind, it will hardly make a difference. Goldfish -- and Carp generally -- live in very cloudy water where they use their lateral line, taste buds, and extremely keen hearing to navigate and find food. Anyway, to test, come down in the night when the lights are out and the room is dark, and shine a light into the tank. Fish should react to this, either being startled or being attracted, depending. But if Ol' Red Eyes does nothing, that might indeed mean he's blind.> Now, if it is (Fish TB) is it contagious?
<For a start, it is extremely rare. Probably 1 in a 1000 cases where people *think* their freshwater fish has Fish TB actually turn out to be Fish TB. It's almost always Finrot, Lymphocystis, or something else like that. In theory, yes, it is contagious, and again, in theory even to people. So if suspected, it's something to deal with. But I think it extremely unlikely to be the problem here. You would see noticeable emaciation and very commonly external ulcers. Since you aren't reporting these, I don't think that's what we're dealing with. As Bob says, it may be genetic. In that case, I'd expect both eyes to look similar. Mechanical damage is usually asymmetrical.>
If the TB is not a danger to the other fish, I guess I will just live with a Red Eyes Fish.
<Indeed.>
One other question, are you in the UK?
<Yep.>
And thank you Neale for your fast response, I did not expect it.
<We do try...>
Bud...in the U.S.
<Good luck, Neale.> <Mmm, I do still suspect this is simple genetic expression... not "cure-able", nor debilitating. BobF>

Black spots on goldfish fins 1/29/08
Hi Crew,
We recently got my daughter a couple of goldfish for her birthday, and yes, I have read what you said about fish not being a good present. It's too late for that, though, and now are stuck trying to figure out how to take care of the fish. Since then, I've done a lot of reading up on goldfish, but realize we are still far from giving them an ideal environment.
<Oh...?>
We had two comets until one died; we now have 1 comet and 1 tinfoil barb.
They are still pretty small and live in a 5 gallon tank (I know).
<Whoa... apart from the fact goldfish are big fish and need at least a 30 gallon tank long term, tinfoil barbs (Barbonymus schwanenfeldii) are just as large and far more active, as well as being schooling fish. A 55 gallon tank would be a squeeze, let along a 5 gallon tank.>
I did a water change when the first fish died, and since then, the remaining comet has developed black marks on its fins. I researched it on the internet, and it looks like what's described as black smudge, or healing scars from damage done by ammonia or sharp objects (entirely possible). My research indicates that scars are a good sign, as the danger has been removed and the fish is healing.
<Hmm... not sure scars are a *good sign* per se.>
However, the black marks seem to be growing daily and is now starting to show up faintly on the underbelly, especially near the anal area. The scale quality seems to be going down as well. I don't think it's scale loss, but it looks sort of like they're fading or developing pale spots.
<Black Spot Disease is usually caused by trematode worms. They have a complex life cycle that can't be completed in the aquarium, so once the black cysts burst, the next stage of parasite life cycle gets messed up, and the disease is finished with.>
I recently changed the filter and treated the water for chlorination, but beyond that I'm not sure what to do. I know you'll tell me to get a bigger tank, and believe me, I would if hubby would allow it. Is there anything I can do besides getting a new tank, or should I even be concerned?
<Black Spot Disease is not, by itself, a major problem. The main risk is secondary infection, because the burst cysts are effectively openings for bacteria to work their way into the fish. So Finrot, for example, is one possible problem. An excessively small aquarium -- which yours is -- definitely magnifies this problem. I cannot stress this strongly enough: a 5 gallon tank is simply not viable for even one Goldfish, let alone a Goldfish and a Tinfoil Barb. It's like trying to keep a dog in a rabbit hutch.>
The fish is behaving normally (as far as I can tell - I don't know much about normal fish behavior); he's a pretty outgoing little fellow and enjoys human company. He's energetic and a good eater.
<Goldfish are definitely friendly animals and yes, they do like people. And that's why we should repay that compliment by giving them good living conditions.>
Any advice is welcome. Thanks!
Amy Kesic
<Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Black spots on goldfish fins 1/31/08
Thank you for your reply.
<Happy to help.>
I may have convinced my husband to get a new tank (by returning the one we have, if they'll take it). What's the minimum size you recommend for our two fish? They are a comet goldfish and a tinfoil barb. I'm trying to find good deals on Craigslist, and so far have found that 55-75 gallon tanks are generally in our price range.
<Either would be ideal. If the price difference is trivial, then obviously the bigger the better, but if money/space are limiting, then the 55 will be perfectly acceptable. You'll be pleasantly surprised by how much easier it is to maintain a big tank compared to a small one, and you'll even be able to add some suitable tankmates. I'd certainly get a couple more Goldfish. The Tinfoil barb would appreciate a pal or two, as well, but oddly enough they seem to do okay when combined with similar-looking fish, and Goldfish should fit the bill. Add a nice Plec or some other peaceful catfish, and off you go!>
Additionally, I would appreciate any recommendations on plants/decorations that would be suitable for these fish.
<I'd tend to go with plastic plants and ceramic ornaments. Nice big bits of rockery stone from the garden centre always work well with big fish, but check the ones you get are lime-free and don't have any metal seams in them. Granite and slate are two reliable choices. Since these fish are open water animals, what they really want is lots of tall plastic plants around the sides and back, and maybe a few ornaments in the middle to explore. Otherwise, just open water! Some folks like to go "formal" with Goldfish, and choose unusual terracotta urns and ornaments, so that the thing has a more formal look. Oriental stuff like pagodas also look really nice with them. There's lots of options out there.>
Our poor Sparky is getting sicker by the day. Are there any medications you recommend in the meantime?
<Treat with a combination Finrot/Fungus medication such as Maracyn or eSHa 2000. You could also do seawater dips. These are pretty good for cleaning wounds and killing external parasites. Make up a 3% salt solution using aquarium water plus salt (even cooking salt is fine for this). A 3% solution is about 30 grammes per litre (or 4 ounces per US gallon). Dip the fish in there once or twice a day for 2-10 minutes. Dip the fish, watching its behaviour. It'll be unhappy, but it shouldn't keel over. When it keels over, that means you MUST take it out at once. I'd recommend a 2 minute dip to start with, then 4 minutes the next time, 6 the next, and so on. The idea is the salt water dehydrates external parasites before it kills your fish; it's completely safe done properly, but done carelessly you can kill your fish. So you need to whip the fish out the moment it seems to lose balance (or before). This is strictly optional, and you should be fine just using the medications mentioned earlier.>
Thanks again for your excellent advice.
Amy
<Cheers, Neale.>

My yellow goldish, hlth.  – 1/28/08
Hello, it looks like my yellow goldfish has a bloated stomach. I've been reading you other post and comments but I can't seem to find the right answer to my question. I haven't changed any food. Please keep in mind, this is the first I every take care of goldfish. What is the difference between being pregnant and having a bloated stomach?
<Greetings. The main difference is that Goldfish do not get pregnant. They lay eggs. Most of the time that Goldfish look bloated they have constipation. Commonly caused by people feeding them nothing but Goldfish food. Strange but true -- "Goldfish Food" isn't very good for them! At least, not every day. Best used as a treat once or twice a week. Rest of the time use a plant-based diet as well as high-fibre things like Daphnia. Do read this excellent article on floaty, bloaty Goldfish...
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshmalnut.htm
Cheers, Neale.>

Goldfish flashing and bruising (?) despite good water and 5 day Prazi treatment  1/26/08
Hi,
I have spent so much time on your website and am vastly more informed than I was at the outset of this saga, but still have an issue with my goldfish that I am hoping against hope you can help me with. I am a new goldfish owner and I have one fantail goldfish in a 30 gallon tank. I was told by the petstore to cycle my tank by letting it sit for one week with BioZyme added daily, which I did.
<Mmm, not likely effective... did you measure appreciable ammonia, nitrite, nitrate changes?>
I now know this is very inadequate but now I have the fish. I am getting zero readings on ammonia but still some nitrite readings (low but measurable).
<Toxic>
I have been doing daily 25% water changes (recommended for the worm treatment) so I don't see how the water could be too bad.
<Polluted in varying degrees is not healthy>
My fish started out with the noticeable symptom of an anchor worm hanging off of him. I was advised to take him out and pull of the anchor worm, which I did, and also treated with Maracide, a medicine that supposedly treats anchor worm.
<... does not. Only useful against some protozoans>
About a week later he had another anchor worm. Again I pulled it off of him and treated with Maracide for three days of the five recommended.
<...>
By this time, Jingles was flashing and missing scales. Right after I removed the second worm I noticed a black spot on his gill, but in front of it, like a bruise. After day three of the Maracide treatment I reached the people at the Goldfish Connection, who told me they thought my fish had flukes (because of the flashing)
<Quite possibly>
and that Prazi was a good and safe treatment for that.
<Yes>
By this time, he had black spots on his side were the scales were missing. To me it appears to be bruising (don't know if that's what it is because I obviously have no idea what I'm doing but just describing their appearance). The black patch on his gill has not gotten bigger but no gotten better either (after a week).
I am on day 5 of 5 of the Prazi treatment and he is still flashing. I've seen no more evidence of the anchor worm.
<May well still be there... need to be treated with an effective arthrocide... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwcrustdisfaqs.htm
and the linked file above re Organophosphate Use>
He is still eating and I've been feeding him Medi-Gold on the advice of the Goldfish Connection in case he has any infection from the flukes. He is eating and seems to have a healthy appetite. He is not laying on the bottom or gulping air and his gills are red inside. He seems slightly more lethargic than when I first got him (late December) and when he does move he flashes a lot. My concern is that if the flashing was caused by flukes, shouldn't he have stopped by now?
<Mmm, may take some time to abate. The shorter answer, perhaps not yet>
And if it's caused by water (which seems unlikely with the daily 25 percent water changes and all) what should I do?
<Maybe BioSpira to speed up (really... the other product may not have worked) the cycling process...>
And if it's not caused by either of those things, what could it be? I can't find any information on anything else that could cause it despite countless hours Googling.
<The Lernaea/Anchorworm may be present still... I would like to "chat" with whoever sold you this infested specimen, gave you the "crap" advice re the Mardel product...>
I should also add that I did not do a water change for the first two weeks I had him, not did I test it, as I was just going by what the PetCo people said (I know now this was stupid and have every test strip on the market practically) so there may have been some damage to him then, although he acted completely normal and did not show symptoms until well after I started doing the water changes more frequently.
I also can't find much about the black spots except that it might be bruising, which makes sense because of the flashing. I am so desperate to get him better but I am at a loss what to do next. Can you help me?
Rebecca
<The black spots are best ignored at this point... Are very likely "simply" symptomatic of the parasite presence and treatments, stress from a not-ready environment... Please read where you were referred to, "listen" only to yourself... Trust the fine folks at Goldfish Connection... Bob Fenner>
 

Goldfish help - 1/24/08
Hello, I'm hoping you can help. 3 days ago my goldfish all of a sudden started swimming strangely. Its like it can't keep control of its right side and has begun swimming on its side, every so often going in to spinning when it tries to swim normal. Its eating habits haven't changed, but it does have problems getting to the food and has to try and come down on top of it to suction it up.
I did notice a red line on its right gill, though I don't know if its a scratch.
He rests either completely on his side on the bottom of the tank or tries to prop himself up against a plant. The symptoms have gotten progressively worse, where he has very little control of the swimming. And every so often he starts getting a curve in him towards the right. Though the worse symptoms are in between spurts when he has a little more control. So the "bad times" keep getting worse I should say.
The tank is a 5 gallon Aqua-Tech 5 with a carbon filter. I tried to doing research and immediately changed out a third of the water and changed the filter. I also stopped feeding him for a day and gave him skinned cooked peas yesterday and today just in case it was constipation. I put in a Mardel LiveNH3 detector yesterday, and its stayed at the safe color.
Today I got a Mardel 5 in 1 test strip. Nitrate was at 40, Nitrite was at 0, Hardness was at 250, Alkaline was at 180, Buffering was at 120, and the pH was at 8.0
I also started Jungle Fish Care's Lifeguard All-In-One Treatment for external fish diseases (bacterial, fungal, viral, parasitic). Its a 5 day treatment.
I'm attaching a video <<RMF could not open>> I took with my cell phone of the fish, so you can see how it's behaving. Hopefully this is enough info, and I appreciate any help.
Marty
<Hello Marty. The usual reason Goldfish swim poorly is constipation, caused by poor feeding. When Goldfish are given flake food day-in, day-out, they often become constipated and this messes up their buoyancy. See here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshmalnut.htm
Looking at the video though, your fish may be constipated, but I suspect something more serious, either poisoning, bad genes, or a systemic bacterial infection. Poisoning is surprisingly easy to do: things like paint fumes, bug sprays, and other organic chemicals we use around the house are toxic to fish, and in small tanks especially they can quickly reach concentrations that harm or kill fish. I've done this myself by accident, and the death-throes of the fish are rather similar to what your Goldfish is doing. Bad genes is something we find difficult to spot when shopping, but suffice it to say that a lot of fish breeding on farms is for quantity rather than quality, and a certain proportion of the fish produced are sub-standard. Swim bladder problems are very common deformities in these fish, and that's what might be going on here. Still, if the fish was deformed in some way, I'd expect it to have always swum badly, rather than suddenly losing swimming ability. The third option is a bacterial infection. Aeromonas and Pseudomonas bacteria are harmless in healthy tanks but in tanks with variable to poor water quality they can cause all sorts of problems, one of which is a systemic infection including the swim bladder. Consequently, I think the 5-in-1 treatment is a waste of time. You need something antibacterial or antibiotic. Maracyn-Two is the usual antibiotic recommended for this, but (as far as I know) it is only traded in the US. If you're outside the US, then you might be able to use an antibacterial such as Interpet #13, but in all honesty these tend only to work with early to mild infections, and your fish is so sick that you'll likely need to get a prescription antibiotic from your vet. I am somewhat concerned that this fish is being kept in a 5 gallon tank -- this is completely inappropriate for Goldfish, and while unlikely the immediate cause of the problem, such a small tank won't be doing anything to help the fish either. Small Goldfish can be kept in 10-20 gallon tanks, but once they get above about 8 cm/3", they really need something around the 30 gallon mark. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: Goldfish help - 1/24/08
Hi Neale, thanks for the response -
Is here anything to be able to tell for sure if its this [chemical fumes, poisoning], or anything that can be done if it is? It has a closed lid and the tank sits on a serving window (that opens from the kitchen in to the living room (we live in an apartment). So it sits elevated with the sink behind it, and doesn't really get anything around it.
<No way to test. Cooking smells and steam generally aren't dangerous to fish. But certainly cleaning chemicals might be if they got into the tank. It's really a case of common sense -- is it possible anything got spilled into the tank? Sometimes children and house-mates "accidentally" put things in fish tanks, such as beverages.>
Yes, we got him in June and this just started happening a few days ago.
>I agree, bad genes doesn't sound likely.>
What about something like Fish Mox (Amoxicillin)?
<No personal experience. Amoxicillin can be used against Aeromonas, but some strains of Aeromonas are Amoxicillin-resistant, so your results could be less than perfect. Definitely worth a shot though if you have some lying around. But I think Maracyn-Two has a better reputation for Swim Bladder infections, so if you haven't spent the money yet, I'd try that one first.>
Well, it doesn't make sense to look in to changing the tank size until I find out what's wrong and treat it. 30-gal tanks are a bit expensive for me (average of $200 on up), especially to spend on a single goldfish that might be dying anyway.
Marty
<Put simply, in a 5 gallon tank, Goldfish health is never very good. Even if you get the right medications, this fish might not recover when kept in such a tank. Fish kept in such small tanks are always more likely to get sick, and less likely to recover, simply because small volumes of water are less stable and more rapidly polluted than big volumes of water. I agree $200 (US) would be an insane amount of money to spend on a 30 gallon tank. But you should be able to get a basic system for much less than that. If you're saying to me that if this fish dies, you won't ever keep fish again, that's one thing, and I can understand your reticence over spending more money. But if this fish dies and you go straight out and buy another fish, that's not acceptable. It's not fair on the fish, condemning it to a grim life in a stagnant puddle of water; and it's ultimately not fair on you, because you'll sooner or later have to deal with another sick fish. Your move. Cheers, Neale.>

Recurring Septicemia in Goldfish 1/20/08
Dear Crew
<Bernadine,>
I have 3 small (2 inch long) fantail Goldfish in a 20 gallon tank with 2 Aquaclear 30 filters running on it. I do understand that this is too many goldfish and I will need to get a bigger tank in future when they have grown a little more but I think they are ok for now as they are still small.
<OK, but do be aware that there's more to a big tank than "swimming space". Bigger tanks are chemically and physically more stable, so the fish experience a more moderate environment.>
I unfortunately bought the tank and fish before I knew anything about cycling, so I'm afraid the fish were in the tank during the whole cycling process. It completed it's cycle approximately 2 months ago though and ever since then the water has always tested 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrite and less than 5 Nitrate, and pH is 7.0.
<The pH is a bit low. Actually, the pH itself isn't critical, but the low pH does suggest to me that the water has a low carbonate hardness. Goldfish appreciate water that is distinctly hard. They really thrive in "liquid rock" environments! So you probably need to add some sort of chemical buffering. Carbonate hardness inhibits pH changes, and that's at least one critical factor for success with Goldfish. The easiest way is to add some Malawi Mix salts to each bucket of water. You can buy these salts (easy), or you can make your own (cheaply) -- whichever you prefer. A standard Malawi salt mix is this: Per 5 gallons/20 litres add
* 1 teaspoon baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
* 1 tablespoon Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate)
* 1 teaspoon marine salt mix (sodium chloride + trace elements)
Start off mixing one bucket of this 'Malawi' water to every three buckets of tap water, and then see what the pH is. What you're after is a pH around 7.5-8.0. If the pH is still too low, go for one bucket Malawi salted water to one bucket plain tap water. In theory, you could keep Goldfish happily enough in 100% Malawi salted water, but for the sake of economy, you will likely want to mix plain and salted water. Please do note that "tonic salt" or "aquarium salt" DO NOTHING to raise the hardness and are NOT a substitute for this.>
I do weekly 30% water changes, treating the water with Seachem Prime, and feed them a variety of foods, a small amount twice daily.
<All sounds fine, but do remember Goldfish are herbivores, and at least half their meals should be plants. The easy solution is to add some pondweed to the tank and let them eat that across the weeks. Given adequate green foods, you will only need to provide flake or pellets every other day.>
My fish surprisingly didn't ever get sick during the cycling process, but now that the cycle is complete, one fish keeps getting Haemorrhagic Septicemia and I am not sure what I need to do to prevent it coming back.
<You really can't. Two things: Haemorrhagic Septicemia is difficult, even impossible, for aquarists to positively identify. Finrot will cause identical symptoms if allowed to progress too far. Secondly, since Haemorrhagic Septicemia is caused by a virus, there's no cure. A fish may get better, but there's no way to make that happen beyond optimising the living conditions.>
I think I have probably weakened his immune system during the toxic ups and downs of the cycle, and now he can't seem to shake the illness. He is slightly larger than the other 2 fish and they all get along well, so I don't think it's due to stress from his friends picking on him or anything like that.
<Good.>
The first time he showed the blood streaks and splotches all over his skin and fins I moved him to a hospital tank (no carbon in the filter of course) and treated him with Furan 2 as directed. By day three he looked completely better but I left him in the medicine for the full 4 days as recommended, then returned him to the main tank. He was fine for 2 weeks and then it happened again, so I put him back in the hospital tank and left him in the medicine for 8 days this time, even though he looked completely better by day 3 of treatment. He was fine for 1 week in the main tank after that, but has just shown symptoms again and is back in the hospital tank on the Furan 2 again. It seems that either the medicine is not quite working, even though it looks like he's cured each time, or there is something else I'm doing wrong that keeps causing it to come back, so I'm unsure what to do.
<I'd definitely switch to a reliable antibacterial or antibiotic of a different type. I've had amazing success using eSHa 2000 dealing with unidentified bacterial infections. A lot of people swear by Maracyn and Maracyn 2, so give those a go if they're easier to obtain where you are. If nothing off-the-shelf helps, this is likely a situation where veterinarian help will be required.>
Should I leave him in the medicine for even longer (say 12 days) this time, or would that be bad for him?
<There's normally no advantage to leaving longer periods for one course of drugs to work, but repeatedly going through the course can help *provided* the fish isn't stressed by the medication and you do decent (50%+) water changes between courses.>
I have looked on the website for answers but the other people who have had the same problem didn't seem to know about water chemistry and were advised to simply improve their water quality and it should come right, and my water seems to be perfect so I don't think that's what's causing it for me. If you have any advice for me I would be really grateful for the help.
<If this is a viral disease, then there's not really much you can do. Assuming it is viral, it's likely contagious, so take care to isolate the fish and any objects that could move between tanks, such as nets and buckets.>
Thank you so much.
From Bernadine
<Hope this helps, Neale>

Sick black moor 1/18/08
I bought a lovely black moor from the local pet store as a gift for my grandmother after her long time goldfish (who lived well over ten years) passed away. Before I even give it to her, I quarantined it for good measure as I wouldn't want her Cory cats to get ill if there should be something wrong with it.
I gave the fish a full inspection: Gills, finnage, appetite etc. ... and have noticed a white film on it's gills (the edges and inside). I've looked around different sites and haven't been able to find anything definite. I'm almost certain it has to be a bacterial infection of some kind, but not exactly sure what.
It's a very sweet fish and I'd hate t see it die. Do you have any tips regarding treatment?
<Without knowing more, my first guess would be Columnaris (Flavobacterium columare), a Finrot-like bacterial disease that is often associated with necrosis of the gill filaments. So if the gills look sick, rather than merely covered in extra slime, that would one possibility. Columnaris is normally treated using the same antibiotic/antibacterial medications as Finrot. It might also be Velvet, which irritates the gill tissues, resulting in thicker than normal layers of mucous. Underneath the slime, the gills are (to the naked eye at least) normal. But Velvet is usually associated with fine, shiny, powder-like cysts on the fish, from whence comes the "velvet" name. There are numerous commercial Velvet remedies. You might decide to use both medications, one after the other, separated with a nice big water change to prevent any reactions between the two drugs. Cheers, Neale.>

New Pearlscales in a tizzy 1/17/08
Hi!
<Ave!>
I'm a new, and nervous, goldfish owner!
<Welcome to the hobby!>
I set up my 5 gallon aquarium, with and a small layer of gravel from a settled tank underneath the new gravel.
<Whoa... 5 gallons for Goldfish!!! Too small, too small! Please understand that Goldfish are big, messy animals that do not do well (usually die) in small tanks. Even a 20 gallon tank is a bit small, and most of us here at WWM will recommend a 30 gallon tank upwards. If that's too big for your budget/house... then don't keep Goldfish. Simple as that. Ever seen Goldfish in a pond? How happy do they look! Yet you're trapping them in the same volume of water as a bucket, and expecting them to do well. They won't. Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/goldfish101art.htm
And peruse the other articles on the topic. Trust me on this -- keeping Goldfish is NOT EASY. I cannot begin to tell you how many messages we get about sick Goldfish kept in bowls and other inadequately small containers.>
Everything seemed wonderful. No odd readings on pH, ammonia, or nitrite/nitrate while it was running for 5 days without fish. It was at around 75F.
<A little warm for Goldfish. While they certainly are subtropical in theory, the warmer the water, the less oxygen it contains while the Goldfish's metabolism (their need for oxygen) goes up. So aim for more moderate temperatures; 65-68F/18-20C is perfect.>
Today I added two tiny Pearlscales (and an air stone/pump), and after an hour they began gulping at the top while swimming agitatedly.
<I bet.>
I added some Cycle just in case and moved the air stone to see if it was the current bothering them. They seem to be settling down a little, but I notice that they hang out unusually often at the top, gasping and being nervous.
<Too warm, too little oxygen, and likely ammonia/nitrite poisoning. Do remember ammonia comes out of the fish, not nitrite, and you won't see nitrite until the bacteria in the filter start making it. (You do have a filter, right?). So it may be a week before nitrite levels become detectable, while ammonia levels will rocket upwards, stressing/killing the fish.>
Temperature is still riding at about 75F. I've read elsewhere about fish behavior during nitrite poisoning being similar, but it hasn't even been 24 hours!
<So? The problem is that fish don't read books or web sites. So they don't know the rules and the nice neat numbers and the graphs and whatnot. If there's ammonia or nitrite in the water, or not enough oxygen, they'll gasp for dear life!>
Is the tank too hot, is it cycling, or am I doing something very wrong?
<You are doing several things very wrong. Keeping Goldfish in a 5 gallon tank for a start. I don't care how small they are now: a year from now they're going to be 15 cm/6" in length, and maybe double that a couple of years later, or at least they should be if they don't die first. And a 5 gallon tank will obviously be grossly inadequate for them. So you may as well start off properly instead of messing about with silly 5 gallon "buckets" that the guy in the store told you is a fish tank. Next up, you cycle tanks BEFORE adding the fish. There's stuff you can buy to do this, or you can do it the old fashioned way by just dumping small pinches of flake food into an empty tank for a few weeks. As the food rots, it produces ammonia, and the bacteria chow down on that, turning themselves into your biological filtration system. Once you detect zero nitrite, then you add some fish, and off you go!>
I'd wait longer to ask, but I'd hate to wait too long and end up having dead fish!
<Indeed. Glad you asked, and hopefully this information will help you out!>
Thanks,
Nervous Nettie (aka Alex)
<Best of luck, Neale.>

SOS Fantail  unbalanced, curling, hyperventilating, eye paralysis, lying on one side.    01/13/2008
Hello,
<Helga>
I have a very sick friend that needs help ASAP but I do not know what to do.
My little fantail went crazy after a water change I did 2 days ago.
<... hence the suggestion to store change water for a week or more ahead of use...>
Since then it has been lying on one side at the bottom of the 10g tank that he shares with a black moor.
<... need more room>
Even though he seems to be agonizing, if disturbed he will suddenly spiral to the top and then again to the bottom. In addition, it seems like he cannot keep his balance, his spine curls to one side, and one of his eyes is currently paralyzed (it bulged out and remained looking down).
Its breathing is heavy and fast.
The black moor, on the contrary, seems to be doing great.
I really want to help this fellow. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Helga
<... At this point... need to test the water for ammonia, nitrite... perhaps salt use... a bunch to go over... but you can do so self-directed... Start here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshsystems.htm
and the linked files above. I do hope you will be able to aid your goldfish, secure their return to health. Bob Fenner>

Aggressive goldfish... just too crowded, not reading   1/7/08
Hello! I'm KJ! First of all, thank you for having such a helpful site, I have really learned a lot from it!
<Ah, am glad KJ>
I have a question about my crazy goldfish (they aren't actually crazy, it is probably more that I'm crazy about them).
<Insightful>
Anyway, I rescued two goldfish, a comet and a fantail, from my swim team's coach's office over the summer. I became very attached to them, and wanted a better home for them than a small bowl. I don't know exactly how many gallons were in the bowl, but I *know* there was no way any number of fish should have been in it. So, for a Christmas present, my parents gave me an Eclipse 12 Gallon tank (Yay!) that I planned on moving my two lovely fishies into. However, a week or so before Christmas, I noticed symptoms in my fantail that resembled dropsy (I've had a beta fish die from it as well). I tried to help him/her, but I think it only extended his life a little.
Sadly, he died on Christmas Eve. So I set up my new tank on Christmas morning, and my parents were ready to move my yellow fishy, as I call my comet, into his new home. I made them wait three days to let the tank mature a bit, because that was the time most people suggested.
<Need more time than this...>
Before I woke up on the 28th, my parents ran out to Petco to surprise me and bought FIVE new fish, 3 more comets (all very small, about 3/4 o f an inch), a red-cap Oranda, and a calico fantail. The largest fish in the tank is yellow fishy, my old comet, but only by about a quarter inch.
<Yikes... the 12 gallon isn't large enough for one goldfish in time...>
So the whole point of that story is that today, I was procrastinating from my homework and watching my lovely fish when I noticed that the calico fantail had the uppermost right tip of its tail missing. It doesn't look like rot, I already checked that out, but it looks like it was cut off. At first I suspected the pump that draws water into the filter, but I looked into my tank with horror as my beloved yellow fishy was nipping the fantail!
<Yes... too crowded>
So, I have removed yellow fishy, and put him in his bowl (only temporarily, of course). My main question is, however, even though there are too many fish in one tank, why did my yellow fishy only go after the one fantail?
<Crowding... easier target>
And he has more room than in the bowl with my old fantail?! How should I deal with my yellow fishy and my calico? He really just ignored the other fish in the tank, but he chased the poor fantail... Oh, and should I treat the calico's tail?
<Mmm, indirectly... by making more room...>
In some earlier responses, it says to treat for fin rot, but others say just to watch it and keep the water clean.
I really hope I haven't wasted your time and I appreciate your response.
Why can't we all just get along? :)
KJ
<For about the same reason/s... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshsystems.htm
and the linked files above. Please follow directions and look before writing us. Bob Fenner>

Re: Aggressive goldfish... lack of values   1/8/08
Thank you for your prompt response, but I believe you misunderstood me.
I know and understand that there is not enough room in my tank for so many fish. I guess I did not make that clear. However, I did not buy my fish, my parents bought them for me.
<... I understood/stand this... nonetheless... what will you do?>
As four of them were apparently only 29 cents, I would feel stupid asking to return them. In addition, I did not buy my tank, it was also a gift, because I only have a summer job as I am still in school.
<... impertinent>
My question was more along the lines of why my fish disliked only one of his tankmates, not whether my tank was too crowded or not.
<It... fishes... don't dislike anything (at least to my perception), but many are rather autistic... do "pick" on things that are "in the way">
I did read your site, I know I have too many fish, but I cannot do anything about it at the moment.
<Then your fish will suffer and die>
Also, most questions that involved aggressiveness in goldfish involved multi-species tank, and I have only goldfish.
In an email dated November 25, 2005, it was the opposite situation, with a fantail bullying a comet, but they did not mention tank size. I find it slightly offensive that by providing more information I received a rude reply with no answer to my question.
Again, I still like your site, and maybe you were just in a bad mood.
*I really just want to know how to keep my fish safe*. I cannot afford a larger tank, and I do not want to offend my parents by asking them to return my fish.
<... then... see the above. RMF>

Goldfish troubles, hlth., sys.
Hi, first of all I would like to say thank you all for your hard work on the website, I've been finding it enormously helpful.
<Thanks, Adrienne.>
I'm sure you guys get a ton of questions, and mine's most certainly not the most pressing so I understand completely if you don't answer it. That said, here's my situation:
<Ok...>
I have three goldfish (comets) in a 30 gallon tank. Two were won by a friend at a carnival 6-7 years ago, and one is a feeder fish that grew too big for my turtle to eat (he's about 3 years old).
<Hmm... most pet turtle/terrapin species shouldn't be fed feeder goldfish, unless you deliberately want to make them sick. Goldfish are not only parasite bombs, they containing a lot of fat and Thiaminase, which lead to severe nutritional problems in excess. The common turtle/terrapin species kept by aquarists, the Red-ear Slider, is more a herbivore than anything else, and NEVER needs to be fed live fish.>
All three of them had been living with the turtle until about 2 years ago when I started to feel guilty about letting them get harassed by the turtle. I have 2 AquaClear 30 hang on tank filters running, with foam/carbon/bio rings, and there is aeration.
I do about 20% water changes every week. They eat Tetra goldfish crisps and I keep strands of Anacharis in there for them to much on, which they enjoy a great deal.
<Sounds fine, but with Goldfish I always recommend [a] skipping carbon in favour of more biological or mechanical filtration; and [b] doing 50% water changes. Why? Well, carbon serves no useful purpose in most freshwater systems, while more mechanical filter media will always make the water clearer, and more biological media will make it cleaner. As for water changes, by the time you have the bucket and hose out, it doesn't really make much difference in time changing 20% or 50%, but a 50% water change will DRAMATICALLY improve water clarity and quality. Goldfish are probably the messiest fish kept by aquarists. They are really pond fish, so anyone keeping them indoors has a big job of work keeping the tank clean.>
I have two problems. The feeder fish more often than not has mild to moderate bloody streaks around his fins and belly (hemorrhagic septicemia?).
<No, doubtless Finrot. Septicaemia tends to kill fish quickly, so if its a chronic problem, it's much more likely Finrot that comes and goes. Finrot is a bacterial infection that opportunistically invades skin that has been irritated or damaged. Ammonia and nitrite will inflame the skin, and long term, allows the bacterial infection to set in. It is almost never seen in clean aquaria unless the fish have been physically damaged. So, the first thing to do is check the nitrite level in your tank. If it is anything other than ZERO, that's your issue. pH can also be a factor; Goldfish want hard, alkaline water much like that preferred by livebearers and Mbuna. The harder the better in fact. Note than adding salt has zero effect on pH and hardness.>
I've medicated him countless times with several different types of medications, both in the tank with the others and in a separate quarantine tank. Nothing seems to help.
<If the tank itself is unhealthy, the Finrot may be cleared up by one batch of medication, and simply come back a week later.>
He seems fine otherwise, very active and hungry. After spending at least $100 on medicines over the last couple years for this overgrown feeder, I've given up on it for the time being as he seems content with the situation.
<Hmm... doubt this is true.>
The other problem is affecting one of the carnival fish. I noticed a lump on his side (under the skin) about a year ago, it went away after a couple months. Recently, another lump appeared and it just keeps growing. It looks to be a tumor from pictures I've seen on this site.
<Most probably Fish Pox or similar. Viral in origin, goes away by itself eventually. Much like a wart. BUT... Fish Pox and its relative Lymphocystis are triggered by water quality issues. In good conditions and with a healthy diet, should clear up after a period of months.>
He seems a little unhappy, he's still swimming and eating normally but he just doesn't seem to have the same zest for life anymore. The third fish is just fine. Any insights?
<Yep, as above.>
I'm not in a position to spend much money on these guys, but I would like to help them out if I could.
<Clean water doesn't cost much. A test kit with dip strips is like $10 for 25 strips, and if you slice them down the middle, you get 50 strips. So that's cheap and easy. Monitor the pH and nitrite especially. Do bigger water changes: nothing you can do in fishkeeping helps as much as this. Since dechlorinator costs very little, especially if you buy the big pond-sized bottles (what I do, and these last a year or so!). So again, low cost, minimal hassle.>
I know if it's tumors on the one fish there's nothing I can do, but I wasn't sure about any possible connection with the bloody streaks on the other fish. If it is hemorrhagic septicemia on the feeder fish, why won't it go away, and why hasn't he died? Thanks for any and all advice!
-Adrienne
<Without photos, can't be 100% sure about my diagnoses, but these are definitely the things I'd be thinking about before anything else. Hope this helps. Cheers, Neale.>

Re: goldfish troubles  1/8/08
Thank you so much for your help,
<You're welcome.>
I'll try adding more ceramic rings the filters and doing bigger water changes. I'll also do some testing and what I can find out.
<Very good.>
All I've been testing for is ammonia and that's never been a problem.
<So far...>
As for the turtle issue, the feeder fish was from before I knew better than to trust a pet store's advice on any kind of pet keeping. Rest assured, my turtle (a RES) has been living it up on a diet of greens and veggies supplemented with turtle pellets.
<Very good.>
I've had him checked for parasites since I learned of the issue and he's all clear there. Anyhow, I really do appreciate your replies. Even though I never really planned on having these goldfish I do want to give them a happy and long life!
<Nice to hear. Keeping Goldfish isn't hard provided you keep up on water changes and use a tank of reasonable size with an adequate filter. But the idea they're "easy" fish is misleading. On the plus side, they are intelligent, friendly fish that make excellent pets, so the effort is worthwhile. Cheers, Neale.>

Black Moor... beh., hlth.    1/3/08
Hi,
I have just bought two black Moors and although one seems very happy one of them is staying at the top of the tank and the fin on his back is not standing up, also the two wispy fins that come from the body are flat to the body until he does venture for a little swim down from the top. Is there something wrong with him or is he maybe just adjusting to his surroundings?
Many Thanks
Alice
<Hello Alice... it's difficult to answer this without seeing the fish. While fish can react badly to being moved, they should pep up within 24-48 hours. Do water tests to check the nitrite and pH especially are where they should be (i.e., zero nitrite, and the pH around 7.5). Also keep an eye out for signs of Finrot and Fungus, both quite common on Goldfish when stressed or kept under less than perfect conditions. Do review Bob's article on Goldfish requirements, here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/gldfshsystems.htm
Let it be noted that the more space and better the filtration, the healthier your fish will be. It's hard to keep Goldfish happy in tanks less than 30 gallons in size and without a decent electric canister filter. Cheers, Neale.>