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FW Stingray fungus
11/30/07
Hi there,
<Hello>
I have a problem. I have a 90 gallon freshwater tank with 2 back river
stingrays.
<A good species for such a size tank: Potamotrygon orbignyi only grows to about
a foot across>
They are 3 inches long in body width w/ 3 more inches additionally on the tail.
My pH is 6.8 nitrite 0, nitrate 0 and ammonia 0. I am using very fine sand along
with a small lava rock
<Mmm, all reads as good till here... Lava rock is too sharp, may have metal
contaminants>
setup in the corner. Filtering the system is an Eheim 2128 and Fluval 404. The
stingrays are the only fish in the tank. They have been in there for 4 days and
have not been eating, however they are active, so active that one of them
decided to go into the caves, I presume, and injured/cut his little foot.
<? Foot?>
I noticed the cut yesterday. I read on your site it's good to raise the temp,
which I did and it now sits at 27.2 degrees Celsius. Today he is a growing a
white fungus (looks like cotton) on his foot. Also he is curling his fins
upward, 95% of the time. He has swam a bit, but mostly to glide along the tank,
water and leaps up. I am confused as I do not know what to do as the fish store
is telling
me to use fungus treatments (use half of the recommended dosage) but I don't
want to remove the stingray into a quarantine tank because they are so new and
stressed. Please help me.........I can be emailed back at XXXX Thanks again..
<Let's see... it is not unusual for new FW rays to not feed, and these are quite
small, likely traumatized in being handled, moved... I am leery of suggesting
any "fungus remedy" here as most are outright too toxic, more harmful than
helpful. IF you felt it was worthwhile one comprised of nothing but "Sulfa"
drugs would be my choice... otherwise, removing the lava rock, placing a pad of
Polyfilter (to remove possible metal) in your filter flow path, would be my
course of action. Do keep proffering foods... perhaps some small ghost shrimp,
live worms... Bob Fenner>
(FW) Stingray lethargic/not
swimming properly 11/5/07
I awoke this morning to my stingray in what appeared to be a death curl,
turned out he was just resting his fins on the glass and a rock. but I
changed 30% of the water as per my usual Sunday regimen,
<We share this task, timing in common>
but he is extremely lethargic and seems to be dormant after attempting to swim a
short distance. He hasn't come up on the side of the glass as he
sometimes used to. He seems to be swimming as though he's about to die, like a
regular fish with a gas bladder problem would be swimming on its
side or upside down on the bottom of the tank. I know he isn't eating as much as
he should, he's been extremely thin, but I attempt to feed him
at least 3 times a day. The only thing he seems to readily accept is frozen
bloodworms. I've been trying live earthworms (both cooked/chopped
and live whole/chopped), frozen brine shrimp, fresh cooked chopped mussels,
krill, but can't seem to get any acceptance. I suspect the
malady aforementioned is directly related to his feeding habits, but what can I
do, or is it already too late?
<This is a freshwater... Potamotrygonid... I fully suspect goiter... an iodine
deficiency here, perhaps other nutritional avitaminoses... Please put the term
"ray, goiter, iodine" in the search tool here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/WWMAdminSubWebIndex/question_page.htm
and read the cached views. Bob Fenner>
Thank you,
Josh
Stingray issue 7/22/07
Hi there,
My question is about my fw stingray. I currently am housing 3 fw stingrays, 2
Motoros and one reticulata (teacup). Motoros are 12 in and 6 in and teacup is 6
inches . I have had them for about a year in a 265 gal with a large Pacu and 14
in silver arowana. As of late the smaller Motoro has been swimming above where
the air bubble wand and filter outtake meet. Its def out of character for her. I
am using a fluval fx5, an emperor BioWheel and Eheim canister for filtration.
One of her eyes seems cloudy and closing. I lost the first ray I had a year ago
and he showed some similar signs. Ammonia 0 nitrate 0 ph 6.0.
Temp about 82. I feed rays jumbo night crawlers I get from bait shop and once in
a while feeder goldfish but not to much. I added Pimafix. She also has a little
red around her mouth. The swimming funny really has me thinking somethings up.
She eats and has not lost any weight. Any helpful hints. I would really
appreciate any help your site is the best. Oh and substrate is sand very easy on
them.
<Greetings. As you probably realize, freshwater stingrays are exceptionally
difficult fish that are only suitable for very advanced, highly experienced
fishkeepers. When it comes to disease, the problems are that [a] we don't really
have a textbook list of stingray diseases yet and [b] many of the medications
safe with bony fish are dangerous to cartilaginous fish. Now, as a general rule,
when fish swim into the filter current it is usually because this is where the
water quality is highest and the oxygen concentration highest. Likewise, when
fish show red patches on this skin (signs of irritation) then again, water
quality is something to think about. In your case, you need to be reviewing a
variety of things. Ammonia and nitrite obviously (you say the former is 0, but
how regularly do you test it? try testing over a week and at different times of
the day, especially shortly after feeding). Nitrate needs to be as close to zero
as possible, which you say is the case. But water chemistry is also important.
Stingrays aren't that fussed about pH and hardness, but they are bothered by
changes. So if you're manipulating your water supply to get the low pH and
hardness levels you have, check to see you're being consistent. Another issue is
air or water pollution: it's easy for things like paint vapours and tobacco
smoke to end up in the aquarium, and these will irritate/poison the fish. Yet
another issue is filter turnover. For a stingray, I'd recommend not less than 8x
the volume of the tank in turnover per hour (i.e., marine quality filtration and
twice that for regular small community fish like guppies and tetras). Given your
aquarium is 265 gallons, that means you need filtration around 2120 gallons per
hour, minimum. Your Fluval delivers about 600 gallons per hour, the Emperor 280
gallons per hour, and the Eheim I don't know how much because you don't say the
model. But it needs to be *at least* 1240 gallons per hour to even make the
baseline your stingrays need. Since even a really big Eheim like the
Professional 3 is only producing a "mere" 450 US gallons per hour turnover, your
tank is very likely (almost certainly) under-filtered. Some more general advice.
Melafix and Pimafix are largely useless as treatments. While they sometimes work
for some people under some conditions, they're too inconsistent to be relied on,
and therefore of no value with expensive fishes like yours. Another problem is
diet. Stingrays feed on a variety of animals in the wild including small fish,
but never Cyprinidae. The nearest Cyprinidae are hundreds if not thousands of
miles away from where they live. Why do I mention that? Because Cyprinidae --
things like goldfish and minnows -- have high quantities of Thiaminase that
breaks down Vitamin B1 over time. They also contain a lot of fat. Fish that eat
them in the wild, like pike, presumably are adapted to this, but most other
predatory fish do not seem to be, and long term both these issues cause damage.
Bob Fenner has written at length on the issue of feeder goldfish and marine
predators like Lionfish. Since your stingray is, basically, a marine fish that
happens to be living in freshwater because it got trapped on the wrong side of a
newborn mountain range, your stingray likely will react the same way to a high
fat, high thiaminase diet as any other marine predator (i.e., poorly). On top of
this, feeder fish are the Number 1 best way to introduce parasites and bacteria
into your nice clean stingray aquarium. To be honest, whoever advised you to
feed cheap "parasite time bombs", sorry, feeder goldfish, to something as
delicate and easy to kill as a stingray deserves to spend some quality time on
the Naughty Spot. The ideal foods for stingrays are either terrestrial foods
(like earthworms), marine foods (like mussels and prawns), or "clean" frozen
foods (like bloodworms and lancefish). All these will be safe because they have
no chance of introducing parasites or bacteria into the aquarium likely to harm
a freshwater stingray. Over here in the UK, live estuarine river shrimp are
widely used with success and these match very closely the preferred staple diet
of freshwater stingrays in the wild: large crustaceans. As you realize,
stingrays have teeth adapted not for catch fish but for crushing shells.
Finally, the whole sand issue in aquaria for stingrays is debated endlessly.
There's some good evidence that dirty sand can trap bacteria and cause
infections. This has been observed on catfish barbels for years (erroneously put
down by some people to "sharp" gravel wearing the barbels down). Catfish
generally shrug off such infections and re-grow their barbels when conditions
improve, catfish being, fundamentally, very hardy animals usually adapted to
swamps and other horrid environments. Stingrays do not have this level of
robustness. So double check the sand is spotlessly clean. You should be stirring
it weekly and siphoning out any detritus. Many stingray keepers prefer to keep
their rays in tanks without sand to side-step this issue. Finally, do check the
fish aren't able to burn themselves. It is *extremely* common for stingrays to
burn themselves against the heater. The heater should be either inside the
filter or covered with a plastic mesh of some kind (called "guards" and these
often come with the better heaters anyway). Hope this helps! Cheers, Neale.>
Another stingray question, beh., no useful info. 6/3/07
Hello again
<Howdy>
You helped me the other day in confirming that my little stingray is a girl.
<Ah yes>
I am hoping I can ask you another question. It is so hard to find someone
who knows what they are talking about when it comes to the little beauties.
<More commonly kept nowadays... but...>
Anyways, the little girl was really shy at first, but she has been eating
well so far. Over the last few days she has been doing loop-di-loops in her
aquarium, wanting me to rub her tummy when she is upside down. This morning
she was acting funny, with decreased appetite and it looked like her
breathing was a little labored. She is holding the tip of her disc, the
"nose" up in the water, higher than usual. It almost looks like she hit
something and is sore, but do you have any experience with this?
<Yes... can be a bad sign... Indicative of something amiss with the system,
water quality, metal-poisoning... the presence of infectious, parasitic
disease...>
She is still eating, but not quite as much as before. She is moving around,
but more slowly and along the bottom.
Thank you
Stefanie
<... Please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
Angel stingray – 06/04/07
She decided to get her wings this morning. She seemed so much better and
ate when I got up, but an hour later she had checked out.
I still don't know what happened, no fin curl at all, just the apparent
injury to the "nose".
Thank you for all of your help.
Stefanie
<Please read where you were referred. BobF>
Re: another stingray question – 06/05/07
Hello
<Stef>
Thank you for sending the article. You have an amazing amount of information
on your website. I am sure you have saved thousands of wet creatures by
teaching their humans the right way.
<It is our hope...>
The only thing that I can see that was different was the PH. It was running
a little high, with 7.6, although I was working on bringing it down with
water changes with better water and "PH down" every few days.
<Mmm, good... Do look into longer-term solutions here... starting with water
of less alkalinity, alkaline reserve... Perhaps an in-home Reverse Osmosis
device...>
Before I bring another little ray home, I will change out most of the water
so that the PH is right,
<Mmm, do this slowly... as related...>
and let it cycle again with new bacteria. I currently have some snails in
the aquarium, and they just gave me a dozen babies. Would you like some
snails?? :)
<Heee! No thank you>
Also, in reading your site, you have suggested some prophylactic meds when
bringing home a new ray. Where can I get those meds and what dosage would
you suggest?
<Mmmm... wish I was a bit more careful here... I do endorse the preventative
treatment for "worms" and protozoans for these (Potamotrygonids) and
wild-collected Discus/Symphysodon, and a few other groups, but I would urge
you to rely on the "chain of supply" to have done such medicine work ahead
of your reception, unless you have adequate, separate quarantine set-up...>
Again, thank you for your help. I am still sad the little girl passed away,
but I am hoping that it teaches me enough to make sure the next one will
live for many many years.
Stefanie
<Thank you for sharing your efforts, inspiration, experiences. BobF> Freshwater stingrays getting body slime (water cloudy) 3/28/07
first here's info on the stingray tank:
INITIAL TANK SET UP: 125 gallon tank installed on December 15, 2006 with RO
water and smooth/fine gravel. Added BioSpira and the following day added around
20 small African Cichlids to cycle tank.
<Mmm, mistake... I encourage folks NOT to cycle with livestock... for a few good
reasons: Principally the very real chance for introducing pathogens (disease,
parasitic organisms). Secondly, the production of fright chemicals there from...
And lastly, because it's unnecessary to the tanks development and stress to the
life involved...>
One month later: Low PH = 6.0; Ammonia = 0; Nitrite = 0; Nitrate = 0
More set up info: 175 gal wet/dry filter, Mag Drive Water Pump 1200 gph, dual T5
Light Fixtures, black magic 12x12 carbon pad, white/blue filter pad, 8W UV
sterilizer, 2 ChemiPure, two 250W heaters (hidden)
<Good note>
set at 82.5 degrees, RO Unit for water changes/top off.
<Mmm, the low pH... what was the start? What does your alkalinity test/s show?>
Added air bubbles at the back of the tank wall on 3/16 using a Rena Air 400 pump
and added 2 plastic plants to hide the tubes. No other decorations in the tank.
LIVESTOCK: Removed Cichlids. Added 2 Potamotrygon Motoro Rays (4" and 6") on
Monday, Feb 5, 2007. Rays were very active and eating. Added 4" Silver Arowana
on March 12. Arowana hardly ate.
<Typical... and a bit hard to train to do so in such a large system>
MAINTENANCE INFO: I do a 25% water change (30 gal) weekly. I also add 30 ml RO
Right and 5 ml Prime during water change (RO water is aged in a 40 gal bucket at
82.5 degrees to match the main tank water). I add 60 ml Waste Control weekly to
tank.
<I would skip this last... unnecessary and perhaps a source of trouble here>
I clean filters and all pads (replace when nec..).
<And only do "about half" of these at any given maintenance interval... To
preserve nitrifying et al. useful microbial activity>
Water was perfect until March 21 when the ammonia reached 2
<More than deadly toxic>
and nitrates 40.
<Danger... this is way too high, by at least double... your bio-filtration,
perhaps circulation are inadequate...>
PH is still 6.0 and nitrites 0.
Performed 20% water change on 3/21 with 25 ml RO Right and 10 ml Prime.
Performed 25% water change on 3/24 with 60 ml of Amquel Plus & Novaqua Plus + 30
ml RO Right.
The tank seemed cloudy after the 3/24 water change.
<Not good. Likely bacterial... rather than just chemical, physical... From?
Excess food? Inadequate circulation, filtration?>
Performed another 25% water change with the same additives (60 ml Amquel Plus &
Novaqua Plus + 30 ml RO Right) on 3/26. Ammonia went down to 1 <Very
dangerous... needs to be zip, zero, nada>
and nitrates to 10 but water is still cloudy.
On 3/27, water is still cloudy and the stingrays are less active with body
slime. I performed a 35 gallon water change on 3/27 with 30 ml RO Right and went
back to using 12.5 ml Prime. Rays are a little better but the water is still
cloudy hours later.
Did I do something wrong by changing from Prime to Amquel Plus and Novaqua Plus?
<Mmm, no... but if it were mine, I would not add any of these water
conditioners... period. You're using RO water? It has no sanitizer, excess metal
et al. in it to remove...>
This stingray tank is at my work and my boss was overfeeding the ray a variety
of frozen silver sides, prawns, blood worms, krill, shrimp which caused the
ammonia and nitrate spike. I instructed him to lessen the feedings to 2 very
light feedings a day (recently did not feed the stingrays Sat thru Mon). The
arowana started as a picky eater and we tried live crickets and feeder fish
which also might of caused the ammonia and nitrates to go up. We will no longer
feed live foods.
<Mmm, or move this Bony Tongue fish for a few months into a smaller system,
where it will be easier to train to take offered foods... This IS what I would
do>
What can I do to fix the situation? How can I clear up the cloudy water?
<First, stop with the water conditioners, over-feeding... look to (GET AND USE)
BioSpira to boost your nitrification, rid the system of measurable ammonia)...
LOOK INTO and GET more biofiltration... perhaps a nice large Eheim canister
filter... packed with their bio-media... See WWM re... a nice one-time
investment...>
Should I add Melafix and/or Pimafix for the body slime/fungus?
<No... these are worthless "Melaleuca Leaf" extracts... that will do more likely
harm here than good... You don't want to forestall nitrification any more...>
Am I doing too many water changes and/or adding the wrong additives (RO Right,
Prime vs. Amquel+/Novaqua+)?
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!
- Michael
<Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwestcycling.htm
and the linked files above... And I take it you have read my article on
Potamotrygonids archived on the site, and our FAQs files on FW rays. Bob Fenner>
Re: freshwater stingrays getting body slime (water cloudy) 3/28/07
Thank you for replying.
<Welcome>
I have "Bacter Boost" a Marc Weiss product. I used this in my home tank back in
Sept 2005 and kept it refrigerated since then (I don't see an expiration date on
the bottle).
<I would not use this... or actually any of this companies products...>
Can I use this product or should I just buy BioSpira?
<Only the Marineland product is endorsed (oh, obviously by me) here>
For the product you recommend, do I add directly to the sump or in the tank?
<Directly to the sump is best>
Should I continue 25% water changes to remove the ammonia or just use Bacter
Boost or BioSpira to increase the beneficial bacteria?
<Please see WWM re... there is a not too fine line between the benefits of such
dilutions versus the stultifying effects on nitrification, other stress caused
therein>
Are the bioballs in my 175 gal wet/dry not enough where I need to get an
additional canister filter?
<I would remove the bioballs period... Again, all this, including the rationale
is archived on our sites>
Thank you again.
I'll start reading your article while I await your answer.
<Real good my friend. Life to you. Bob Fenner>
Freshwater stingray problem 03/22/07
Hi, I raise fresh water stingrays currently in a 400 gal. tank. I have
had about five litters of Marbled Motoros in the last two years.
<Neat>
My problem is with my Leopoldi Rays. Last year I had a large male (14") started
to do flips in the tank and then end up upside down.
<Mmm, wild-collected...>
It would stay like this until I would flip him back over. He did this on and
off for about three weeks, then stopped eating and passed away. Now I have
another Leo doing the same thing.
I need to save this Leo, it is my only male left and you can't get any black
rays
in the USA any more. My rays are fed every day with a mix of shrimp,
silversides, scallop and sometimes earthworms. I do huge water changes once
a week.
<Good>
PH is about 7.5-7.8.
<Would be better if the water were more acidic... and likely softer... See
fishbase.org re this species water quality in the wild:
http://fishbase.sinica.edu.tw/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=53766>
If you have any comments on what to try would be great, There is not too
much information about ray problems in the States.
Thanks for your time, Jim
<I do suspect some sort of internal parasite problem here... And do encourage
you to isolate, possibly (if this were me, perceiving what you have in mind...
breeding these species long-term... I would) treat them prophylactically,
through quarantine on arrival... for worms and protozoans... Anthelminthic/s (my
choice here: Praziquantel) and anti-protozoal (Metronidazole)... It will cost
somewhat, but I would likely treat all in the 400 gallon at this point... Much
more on Potamotrygonids, these compounds' use posted on WWM. Bob Fenner>
Freshwater stingray illness 3/20/07
Hello, I read your website often and really appreciate the help you
provide. I have researched for over a day and still can't find anything that
helps. Local pet stores are completely clueless. I have a Potamotrygon
ocellata freshwater stingray (about 6" diameter) that I've had for about a month
now. He has been acting extremely weird, turning on his side in the middle of
the tank, and even flipping upside down.
<Not good...>
He does try to eat when I put frozen brine shrimp in, but he seems to struggle
moving and is breathing heavily. Obviously he is typically active, swimming up
the bubbles and around the walls. I have recently done a 25% water change, and
the water is testing pretty normal, except for ph (ammonia and nitrites nil,
nitrates around 5 ppm). The ph was way out of whack after the change (a little
over 8).
<Much too high as you seem aware... these fishes (the entire family) live in
soft, acidic settings>
I used a small amount of ph decrease to take it down around .4 over the last 24
hours,
<Dangerous... such changes need to be made much more gradually... and not in the
main system, but by way of water change water that has been adjusted outside...>
I know you can't change too much at a time. His skin looks alright, with the
exception of a small lighter discoloration between his eyes toward his front.
<Also a bad sign>
He has some small black dots toward his rear and tail but I believe those have
been there (I'm grabbing at straws here). I am 24 and have kept fish almost my
whole life, especially freshwater, but I'm totally lost here. If you could
provide any help I would really appreciate it. Thanks.
Chad
<... Something else likely is amiss with the environment here... There is much
to discuss, make known... most of it you can surmise by reading here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked files above. Read... Now. Bob Fenner>
Motoro sting ray... RMF rant on the new trade, poor env., poisoning, lack
of useful info. - 02/15/07
Hello,
I have a motoro stingray with a sand substrate.
<Hopefully not silicate... but smooth...>
I was using new Tetra tec filters with internal heaters to protect the ray
but the impellers kept failing.
<What is happening with the "new" Tetra? And while we're at it... Aquarium
Systems salts? Oceanic Tanks...? What gives with the "consolidation" of the
pet-trade anyhow? The big owners are doing a crap job of "managing"...>
I switched to Filstar Canistar filters
<Am not a fan of...>
and had a mild algae bloom. I treated the tank with a small amount of
"algae fix"
<NO!!! Toxic...>
which corrected the algae issue but now she refuses to eat.
<Poisoned...>
It has only been three days and I have tried bloodworms, ghost shrimp, and
krill all of which she used to love. All levels are fine
<... worthless>
and she seems fine but I would like to know if there is anything I can do to
get her back to eating regularly?
<...>
I do not think that the filter change is the problem because I changed the
filter on another ray tank at the same time and that teacup ray is eating
normally. I did a water change but she still refuses to eat.
Bob Fenner had some great advise which helped in setting up for both my ray
tanks and I hope that he or anyone else can help with this question.
Please advise,
Thanks,
Joe
<Please take the (re)read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked files above. I would do a series of water changes to remove
the algicide, make sure the water is warm, soft, acidic per this species
requirements... and be patient at this point. BobF>
Re: motoro sting ray 2/18/07
Bob,
THANKS! She is again eating and doing well.
Joe
<Ahh, thank you for this good news, update. BobF>
Sick Stingray, post-Argulus 2/13/07
Hi, Wet Web Crew--
<Erin>
The general info and FAQ pages on your site have been really helpful to me!
Now I have a specific question about a sick stingray. I'd really appreciate
any info that would help me help her!
<Will help you in whatever way I can>
I've been keeping four freshwater stingrays (P. schroederi, I think) for
about a month now--each in a separate 30 gal breeder tank (I'm a grad
student doing research on the way they swim).
<Ahh!>
They have a soft non-silica sand substrate,
<Mmmm...>
and are kept at 81 degrees F. I'm waiting for my pH decreaser to arrive,
since the water's currently too basic at about 7.4.
<Mmmm... needs to have been adjusted ahead of their arrival...>
Water quality otherwise (nitrates, ammonia, hardness, nitrites, etc) good.
The rays came in with a little fungus near their spines,
<Very common... shipping damage... from rubbing against each other in
transit>
but that has cleared up and all were looking great, feeding very well on
live blackworms (a pipette-full, about 12 worms, twice a day). Then last week
I noticed a couple Argulus fish lice on one ray--
<Mmm... I'd be getting out the Yamaguti references...>
looked & looked but couldn't see any on the others. This same ray has also
failed to put on weight, and recently is *losing* weight.
<These fish were wild-collected but not prophylactically treated?>
I removed the Argulus with forceps yesterday, but am concerned as they have
left the front of her disc hemmorhagic (I've read this can result from
Argulus) and with some (secondary?) fungus. Worst of all, she's holding
that part of her disc curled up from the substrate (bad news!!) though she
can still bring it down to feed. Yes, she's still eating hungrily!
<Good sign>
Obviously I'm worried about internal parasites, or a systemic infection
causing this emaciation. I'd also like to so something to help the front of
her disc heal, but I'm not sure what treatments to use. From what I've
read, a salt dip (~4%) could help with any remaining Argulus...
<Mmm, not advised... Potamotrygonids don't "like" salts either>
I also have access to tetracycline and erythromycin, as well as methylene
blue (which I used to treat the initial tail fungus with some success).
<Good safe cures for what they can do>
Sorry for the long message, just trying to be thorough!
~Erin
<Mmm, do take the long read on WWM re Flagyl/Metronidazole and Formalin
(dips/baths)... Rays, Chondrichthyous fishes period do not tolerate copper
and other metal salts, nor organophosphates (actually acetylcholinesterase
inhibitors period)... Avoid these last two classes of medicants... and
consider (seriously) the first two... We'll be chatting, Bob Fenner>
Re: Sick Stingray, post-Argulus 2/13/07
Hi Bob,
<Erin>
Thanks so much for your reply. Her disc is a bit worse today (though not as
bad as I'd feared) and she's definitely listless and not really eating.
*worries*
<Yes>
I'm reading up on formalin baths right now, but haven't been able to find
good info on dosage for stingrays.
<Mmm... in round numbers, one "capful" of 37% per a gallon of system
water... for a bath... with you in attendance, brisk aeration...>
I'll definitely keep looking, but obviously I'd like to treat her as quickly
as possible. I've never done a formalin bath before, so if you can
recommend a concentration I'd be most
grateful.
Thanks!
~Erin
<And I would avail myself of a Furan compound (likely Nitrofurazone... 250
mg. per ten gallons of system water)... after. Bob Fenner>
Re: Sick Stingray, post-Argulus 2/13/07
One source recommends 1mL formalin/gallon for marine ray species... Is
that appropriate for freshwater?
~Erin
<Yes my friend. BobF>
Hystrix Stingray Not Eating? 1/23/07
To Whom It May Concern,
<Okay>
I have had a Hystrix Stingray in a 250 gallon tank for approx. 9 months and she
has now stopped eating??
<Mmm, you tell me... Potamotrygonids, in fact all cartilaginous fishes do
periodically seem to go on feeding strikes... generally no problem>
I checked the water quality (ammonia = 0, nitrates = 0)and have even performed
two water changes (approx. 20%) over the last 4 days, but to no avail?
<Was I there with you?>
She was eating shrimp (4-5 per day),
<Mmm... I wouldn't feed this much, and not daily>
bloodworm cubes, earthworms, salmon, but is no longer accepting any of the
above. The water temp is approx 80-82 degrees and the PH is 6.0-6.2. I am unsure
what to do, but she has not eaten in approx. 5 days and is looking very thin and
weak.
<Do you administer vitamins? Iodine/ide?>
In the past, she was very aggressive when eating and would accept food as often
as I would put it into the tank. Is there some type of medication that I should
add to the water?
<The aforementioned supplements>
Thanks in advance for your help.
Regards,
Steve
<Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/index.htm
The second tray... Batoids Disease, Potamotrygonids Feeding... Bob Fenner>
FW Reticulated Stingray - Eye problem
Hi,
<Hello there>
I purchased a FW reticulated ray from my LFS about 2 weeks ago. He has been
doing well, apart from a small appetite. In the last 24hrs I've noticed what
looks like a small cotton ball/fuzz (looks like pocket lint) on top of his left
eye. At this point I'm not sure if it's ich
<No...>
since it appears to have grown over night. I've done 25% water changes twice a
week and water quality is normal. Any Ideas?
Drew
<Perhaps resultant from a scratch in capture, moving... Maybe summat to do with
the environment... size of the system, what's in it, the substrate... or water
chemistry (soft, acidic?)... Likely transient... You have read on WWM re
Potamotrygonids in captivity? Bob Fenner>
Motoro ray health 9/28/06
Can you help me with a problem I noticed with my motoro stingray? I've had
it for 2 1/2 years, and it's size is approximately 7" round with a 6 or 7"
tail. I just noticed a depression in between its eyes (on top of its head). He
eats fine and swims fine and haven't noticed any changes other than this
depression. There appears no injury to the outside tissue. Any idea what this
may be, and is it a big concern? Any help with this is appreciated.
Rob
<Mmm... most likely an endocrine/nutritional deficiency centered around
iodine... Do you supplement this animals foods with such? Use Vitamin inserts in
its foods? Please read over WWM re Goiters of Cartilaginous fishes and
Mazuri.com's site re. Bob Fenner>
You can call him Ray (FW) cuz' that's what he is
I've had my ray for about a month now. He is a fresh water ray
from the St. Johns River in Florida. He used to eat from our hand
during the first week, however, we can't seem to catch him eating now. It
doesn't look like he's touching the stuff we leave in there. We're
giving him tetracycline that our pet store ray specialist gave us. We've
been keeping the filter off because the medicine, but have been doing 10% water
changes every other day. His pH is at about 8, he's got a glass
bottom (no gravel). The problem is that he doesn't seem to be eating,
and his Left eye is clouded over. He's been on his medicine for about
four days now. He looks a lot better than he did a week ago except
for his eye and eating problem. Please Help us, thank you.
<Hi Luke, Please head over to this link and do what you can to provide the
conditions mentioned there. http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm Make
sure you read down to the bottom of the page to see the disease section. These
guys need a lot of room, filtration, low pH (below 7) and are sensitive to some
meds. More at the link above. Craig><<This is actually
not a permanent freshwater denizen... RMF>>
FW Stingrays & Ich
If you can help that would be great. We have a 180 Gallon Tank that we are
getting ready to put in 3 freshwater stingrays.
<Three may be too many for this tank. It’s recommended that you have at
least a 100 gallon tank for a single ray so you will probably want no more than
2 in the tank you have. To keep the tank from looking bare you can add some
larger mid to upper water column fish that like the same water parameters.>
We are trying to cycle the tank now but we have a small problem. The
fish that we have in there one of them got Ick and died the others that are in
there have maybe one spot on the fin, but they are ok. The water that we have
used to set this tank up was stingray water as well as drinking water delivery.
We are treating the tank with the Ick medicine and we have been doing this for
the last 4 days. We were told that a stingray is immune to this disease,
<Unfortunately, you were misinformed. These fish can and do get Ich and once
they have it it’s very hard to treat successfully. Please read http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the related FAQ’s for more info.>
but what we want to know is if we put the ray in there now with the med would
anything happen to him and with the fish having a small dot on him would that be
a problem?
<Yes, it will be a problem.>
We don’t want for him to die but since he has a film on him and we are also
treating the tank with salt as well. Please help me on your opinion
everyone tells us a million different things so what we are looking for is an
outsiders thought.
<See the above link, it should answer your questions.>
Thank you, Suzanne Dubman
<You're welcome! Ronni>
Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Good morning,
<Greetings>
I’m very sorry for the bother, but I do have other questions for you. We went
to the pet store and found out that one of the blk and white cat fishes in the
tank was also scratching on the walls as well as very few dots on the
Garibaldi’s fin... They said to us that all you have to do is scrap it off.
<That’s not true. The fish need to be treated for Ich, scraping it off
isn’t going to do the job. With advice like this, I would be finding another
store to buy from.>
He also did just buy an armored catfish, is there anything that he needs to
understand about this fish that is different.
<There are a lot of different “armored” catfishes so I don’t know
exactly what you have. But you can find a wealth of information on all of them
by simply searching the web with your favorite search engine or by using the
Google search box at http://www.wetwebmedia.com
>
Plus, would you happen to know anything on the Asian longtail stingray this is
the one that he is buying as well as the Florida one with the pointed nose the
eyes are very realistic he is just way to kewl.
<See above, you should be able to find oodles of info on these by searching
for them.>
I have to say with all of the research that I have been doing I will be a pro in
stingrays soon...
<Ronni>
Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Thank you Ronni... He is also treating them as well he did a full
dose of CopperSafe on Friday and just got the other fish on Sunday so it is ok
cause he was in the same tank as the others at the store with the ick.. So now
he is being treated as well... Also, what other place in IL has
stingrays for sale? I do feel as if we should go to a different place as well
but we don’t know of any... Can you help me on this one as well?
<Sorry, I’m in MT so don’t know of any reputable stores in IL. Ronni>
Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Wow! Thank you for all of your help. So tell me one thing why is
Scott's pets shop saying that they are immune to these diseases and why did he
say they live in these through their life?
<Unfortunately, many stores are only interested in making their profit and
will tell a prospective buyer pretty much anything. Many other stores also have
untrained staff that will answer a question without actually knowing the proper
answer. However, it is true that they live with the disease to a certain degree
throughout their life, all fish carry this disease and it’s present in every
system but only at certain times does a true outbreak of it occur. And
unfortunately, there’s no way of knowing what is going to bring it on. The
best thing to do is fully research (via books, the web, etc.) any prospective
purchases before committing to them.>
We are using Ick cure for the treatment right now is that ok?
<Should be fine as long as the stingrays aren’t in there yet.>
How long should we treat it? The bottle does say that we go a teaspoon per gal
but I was told only do half?
<If you have scaleless or small scaled fishes then a half dose is correct.
Always treat as long as the bottle says to.>
We have the Eheim filter took the carbon out so when we are done treating the
tank in which should we treat until gone or only what the bottle says which is 3
days and how should we take the medicine out.
<If the fish still have ich after the 3 days then you will need to do a
partial water change (25%) and treat for another 3 days. Once the fish no longer
have the disease, do another partial water change and replace your carbon.>
Should we just put in the carbon filter and let that do the trick and if so how
long until we can actually wait to put in the fish?
<Even with a water change and replacing the carbon you should wait at least 3
weeks before adding any new livestock to the tank. This is to make sure the ich
doesn’t come back. And all new additions should be quarantined in a separate
tank for 2-4 weeks to prevent them introducing a disease to the main tank.>
Should we also consider this part of the cycle?
<The three week period between the cure of the disease and the time it’s
safe to add fish can be considered part of the cycle time. Just make sure your
ammonia and nitrites are at 0ppm before adding any new livestock.>
Please help me out. .. That web site is great. I told him and he was thankful
but mad at the entire situation due to he is getting impatient.
<Don’t let his impatience rush you into your purchase. Your ultimate goal
here is to have a healthy and happy tank that you can enjoy. This won’t happen
if your LFS rushes you into things. If he keeps pushing let him know very
clearly that you will buy and add the stingrays when you are certain that they
will be safe and if he continues to push let him know that you can always take
your business elsewhere. A store should be concerned with the welfare of their
stock above all else.>
Any help for the patience....
<Good luck and if I can help more please let me know. Ronni>
Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Hello there,
<Hello>
One more question. Will that medicine really hurt the ray and if he does put the
ray in now after the carbon filter takes place over night what do you think the
chances will be to live. Again it is a brand new tank and he did take
the bad fish out when he was sick as the other ones seem fine except for one
spot on two of them. That is actually it. So tell me
please. He is very frustrated with this whole situation cause he
feels as of he got shafted from the place. They should have not given
him any other fish that where from a different tank then the stingrays to cycle
the tank. Really he spent a lot of money on this.
<I certainly wouldn’t try putting the ray in this quickly. You are running
the risk of the ray being killed by the medication and/or the ray getting ich.
Even if the remaining fish only show one spot they are still infected. A healthy
fish will not have any ich spots. Patience is the key here. Ronni>
Re: FW Stingrays & Ich
Believe me I do agree with you on that patient work, but he just does not
seem to have any at this point. This is something that he really
wants and is working towards here but the problems just keep on
coming. What else can he put into the tank and maybe help the tank to
go faster?
<Until the disease is cleared up and has been gone for several weeks it is
not advisable to add anything at all. And anything that is added after that
should be fully quarantined for several weeks to prevent this happening again.
Ronni>
Freshwater stingray disease/injury
Dear Sirs
I have 6 Motoro stingrays in my home aquarium (I am
currently keeping 6 tanks at home).
2 of my stingrays have developed some scratches in the
edge of the disk.
I have another 2 whose edges have become whitish (the
skin around the edges of the disk).
<Usually evidence of falling/inappropriate water quality or mechanical
injury. Do you have "sharp" gravel or rocks in their tank?>
For both cases I have tried adding salt to the water,
rising the temperature (from 26 centigrade to 30
centigrade), y also used CHLORAMPHENICOL, MALACHITE
GREEN, FUROXONE, etc. but nothing seems to work.
They don't get worse; but they don't get well either.
<What tests for water quality do you have? I would check pH, ammonia, nitrite
and nitrate for sure. Also, I don't encourage salt additions to these fishes
water... not much in the Amazon period>
Please let me know which would be the way to cure my
stingrays. Or if they will have to live with this
problem for the rest of their lives...
<Not a good idea to ignore this warning sign. Check your water quality for
metabolites... is the water soft, acidic? Have you read the materials posted on
WWM re FW stingrays? Please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked FAQs (above, in blue) re this family>
Your kind assistance will be highly appreciated
Best rgds, Carlos
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>
Motoro ray with cloudy eyes
Hello, I am first time user of your service and fairly confident in my
abilities as an aquarist, but happened to be reading your section on stingrays
and thought maybe you could help me in determining whether a film (very light)
over my motoro rays eyes could be dangerous.... this condition just appeared
today and to most people would not even be noticeable...
<Anything that deviates from the norm is cause for concern, or at least
research.>
I pay very close attention to my fish and as he is one the more expensive fish I
am always concerned about his safety...
<Understood! And what an incredible animal - one of my
favorites.>
He is housed in a 100gal tank with a wet dry and a magnum 330 canister he has
been in there for about two years and was treated twice for ich due to bad
feeder stock that didn't seem to have it when they were introduced into the
tank...
<Ugh.... Do try to find suitable foods aside from 'feeder' fish -
all too often illnesses do move from feeders to the fed - as you have
experienced. This is often the death of large predatory fish. Either
breed your feeders yourself so you know they're safe, or find suitable
alternatives (of which there are many).>
Tankmates are an albino Oscar that was introduced very small and has never
picked on him a fire eel and a small (new) Bala shark that exhibits no signs of
illness
<This really is a bit much bioload IMO - and not quite the greatest mix of
species, at least for the ray, which does best in a pH of lower than 6.0, to
even as low as 5.0, really, too low for the other species you have. Rays
really do best in species-only tanks, or at least with fish that tolerate or
thrive in such low pH as well.>
the water quality is good and the second treatment for ich will be finished in 2
days... neither time he was treated for ich did he actually show signs but it
was preventive....
<May I asked what med you used? Rays are scaleless, sensitive
fish, and many/most meds are pretty harsh on them. If you never saw
ich in the tank, I don't believe it should have been necessary to treat for it. Cloudy/filmy
eyes are usually the result of some water parameter being out of whack -
specifically, what are your pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate readings? Extremely
sensitive animals such as these rays will show effects of environmental factors
being out of whack at even extremely low levels. A water change is
probably the very best remedy available for you.>
as far as Popeye I honestly don't know of that ever affecting a ray but I
suppose its possible... I will be paying very close attention to him for the
next few days and if there is any information you may have for me it would be
greatly appreciated... as I'm sure you well know many common fish medications can
harmful to rays and if he does have Popeye do you think a broad spectrum like
maracyn2 would be safe for him
<I seriously doubt that you're dealing with Popeye. Truly, cloudy
eyes usually clear up after a good water change or two. I'm guessing
it might be related to a nitrate problem, in this case, as you already mentioned
feeder fish and have large predators in the tank. Check your water,
fix if necessary. -Sabrina>
Thank you.
Possible growth on Fresh water Stingray (URGENT)
Hello my name is Thomas Merrill. I have had two
Motoro Stingray for about six months now. Everything
has been great. Today I noticed a small red sac
attached the anus of my male stingray. He is still
acting healthy and eats when ever food is presented. Attached are a couple Photos I just took. Do you have
any idea what this is, and if not do you know where I
might ask? If you do know what it is could you please
tell me about it and how I could possibly treat it? Thanks,
Thomas Merrill
<Thomas, sorry to say the attachments did not make it through (please
resend). These "goiters" or tumors are not uncommon in captive
freshwater rays... and almost always can be corrected with the addition of
iodine/iodide to the animals foods. Please look to the fish stores, online
suppliers for such supplements and administer them to the fish's foods ahead of
feeding. Bob Fenner>
Possible growth on Fresh water Stingray (URGENT) - Follow-up
Thank you so much for your reply. Here are the attached files.
<Mmm, on viewing the image, I'm more inclined to think this may be a case of
a prolapsed colon... I would cut back on this fish's food and offer it only
smallish meaty food items (bite size or smaller). Bob Fenner>
Freshwater Stingray
Hello,
<Howdy>
I have two freshwater stingrays (not exactly sure what kind), male and
female. My male is continuingly swimming in circles and has not eaten
in two days. Is this normal or should I be concerned?
<Not atypical for these fishes to go on periodic hunger strikes... if it
doesn't eat for more than a week I'd be concerned, try other foods, soaking them
in an appetite stimulant solution. But the swimming in circles is not a good
sign. How long have you had these fishes, and how are they housed? Bob
Fenner>
Roy D. Gray
Re: Freshwater Stingray
Unfortunately the male stingray died 1/16/04. The female stingray I
have had about three months, and the male about 2 months. The female
seems fine and very active. Roy
<Sorry to hear of the loss... these fishes are almost all wild-caught (some
public aquariums have had live births that get distributed)... and sometimes die
of apparently "anomalous" causes. Have you seen the article and FAQs
on the family posted here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
Bob Fenner>
Help with FW stingrays
I have read through your site on FW stingrays and need some information I
can not find. I just received two Potamotrygon castexi one is thin
and has two wounds on its belly, obviously the distributor should not have sent
it to me, but too late for that.
<Very common for FW stingrays to "come in" injured>
You suggest we do not medicate them with Dylox (which our distributor did
suggest) or add salt, but you do not state what you do recommend we do use.
<I would use only about a teaspoon per gallon of any salt type here>
My second question is...the distributor was feeding them live black (blood)
worms, are you aware of any way to adjust them to frozen foods instead of live? Thanks
for your attention to this. Kim (Fishy Business, Montana)
<I would NOT feed these rays tubificid worms (e.g. "Black"), but
Blood "worms" (actually insect larvae) are fine. Other foods can be
substituted by mixing the two together for a few days. Bob Fenner>
Part of stingray's tail turned white
Hi
We have a stingray whose tail had a white tip, yesterday about an inch down from
the tip we saw another small white area. Today between the two white areas
turned white and then fell off. Can you explain to us whether this is normal or
if not what do we need to do. He seems to be acting normal and eating fine.
Thank you
Lori
<Mmm, not normal in general... possibly this fish had a part of its tail smashed
or picked on by other life in the system. Do keep your eye on it for possible
(reddish) infection, consider bolstering its immune system with vitamin-laced
foods, and do the requisite check on your water quality. Something is/was amiss
here. Bob Fenner>
A hurt sting ray
My sting ray (freshwater) was just recently cut up pretty badly. We have an
algae eater in with her because the fish store owner said we should have him.
He's big enough so that she can't eat him. We also have a decorative ship in the
tank. Sometimes our ray will go inside the ship and it takes her a while to
finally come out. She seems to like to go in it. Lately the algae eater is also
inside the ship with her. We found her cut up with flesh and blood the other
day. We don't know if she got attacked by the algae eater (I've finally read
that they can suck on their skin) or if she got stuck in the ship and got
scraped up when trying to get out. She's gotten out before, so it's just really
hard to tell. Which scenario do you think is more likely? What should we do next
to help her?
Thank you, Jessica Maurer
<I'd remove the ship, and the algae eater... raise temperature to the mid 80's
F... and observe the fish for signs of secondary infection. Bob Fenner>
Re: hurt FW sting ray
Thank you for your response. She seems to be doing well. We got medicine for
her wounds and she's eating good. She only seems to like to eat ghost shrimp,
frozen bloodworms and little fish.
<Yes... meaty foods>
We've tried other things, she won't eat them. Is it ok if we buy a lot (say
around 100) ghost shrimp at a time and just put them in our 85 gallon tank? She
eats a lot at a time and we go through them so fast. Will that mess up our tank
or will they die easily?
<Mmm, would be better to house the food separately... you could even establish a
breeding colony... Are hardy animals... am just fearful that your fish/es might
eat too many at once>
Thanks again for your help.
Jessica Maurer
<You're welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: hurt sting ray
Thank you. What's too many at a time? Also, how about fish.? How many fish at a time should we put in? She likes the rosy reds.
Thanks, Jessica
<I would only feed this fish about twice a week... and not to the point where "it's tummy is bulging out". Bob Fenner>
Freshwater stingray
I have a freshwater stingray for 2 months she is eating great.
I just saw her swimming upside down and doing weird things . Her breathing is a
little rapid what is wrong with her, I like her and don't want anything to
be wrong.
>> Check your ammonia and nitrite levels. Sometimes rays can swim in strange
ways in the current of the filter. Is she doing this all the time? Is she still
eating? Thanks, Oliver
Freshwater Stingray
She died 8 minutes later. She was eating great. Everyday about 1-2 dozen
grass shrimp. She was about 5-6 inches round. I really enjoyed her and want
to get another, but I want to know why or what happened so this doesn't happen
again. I got her from the local pet shop. She was just gray with the yellow
spotted tail. I researched everything and thought I set up good. she would
only eat the shrimp, I tried worms, krill, she killed two molly's i had in the
tank with her 3 day's before she died (didn't eat them though) Any
suggestions, or places to get another one when I am ready (different Kinds of
stingrays) . Also, any information to help in the future. Thank You
Joy (I live in Florida, I don't know if that has anything to do with it)
>>Dear Joy, rays are sometimes a bit sensitive, if the fish was eating well at
your place for a while it seems you were doing things right. A ray would not
kill fish without eating them, so something in your tank was wrong enough to
kill your mollies as well. Maybe they died of ammonia or nitrite poisoning.
Feeding shrimp can foul the water quickly. On another note, now that you mention
you are in Florida: All freshwater stingrays are prohibited in your state and as
far as I know can not be sold in Florida or kept by Florida residents. You may
want to research this with your local USFW department. Good Luck, Oliver
Sting Ray Needs Help... You leave me... breathless, ahhh!
11/21/05
our
<The beginning of sentences words are capitalized...>
<<I'm correcting.. MH>>
sting ray has not been eating for the past two days. we noticed he has a little bite on his tail. so we put some
MelaFix
<Worthless>
in the water to help heal the wound. Also the stingray seems stressed out.
<... What re water quality? History, make-up of system?>
He is swimming upside down sometimes and really just sits at the bottom of the tank.
This is not normal for him at all. He is very lively. He swims up and down the tank splashing water.
Very fun to watch.
<Whee!>
We have had him about 8 months. I have done a water change and carbon filter change and just what him to get better.
We lost our hippo tang in our salt water tank 2 weeks ago to ich and it was very upsetting.
We want to stop the losing of the fish as quick as possible. Please help
<You're joking, right? You haven't even mentioned whether this is a marine or freshwater animal. I suspect it is FW and that you haven't read the materials archived on WWM re:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwstingrays.htm
and the linked file above. Bob Fenner>
I have a sick ray... 12/13/05
Hello, I found your email online and thought you might be able to help
me.
<Sorry for delayed reply. Have been away>
I have a motoro freshwater stingray. about 10 inch disc. He has been
healthy for over a year since I've had him.
He quit eating 3 days ago, this was the first time he has ever refused food.
I checked water conditions and they seem fine, nothing out of ordinary.
His stomach seems enlarged on his underside and a little enlarged and uneven
on top side.
<Is likely a tumor from a lack of nutrient... very possibly a goiter from
iodine deficiency>
His left clasper also has some sort of white/red thing in/on
it...
The man I bought him from recommended partial water change (I do regularly)
and that was it.
Do you think there is anything else I might be able to do to help him?
Thanks for any info, and sorry if I'm bothering you
Mike Wagner
Charlotte, NC
<Please search WWM re Ray Health, Nutrition... for marines as well as
freshwater. Bob Fenner>
Motoro Disease? 4/29/06
My babies are almost three years old and I'm hoping they will breed
this next year. I've noted raised spots on the female this week and
wonder what it is and how to treat her.
<Don't know what these are...>
You're invited to view these photos online at Kodak Easy share Gallery!
Just click on View Photos to get started.
http://www.kodakgallery.com/I.jsp?c=eeke81v.8theg3gj&x=0&h=1&y=-lgfh6t
If you'd like to save this album, just sign in, or if you're new to the
Gallery, create a free account.
Once you've signed in, you'll be able to view this album whenever you
want and order Kodak prints of your favorite photos.
Enjoy!
<Thank you. Have saved to active desktop and will post small copies.
What
little I know re this species, its family is posted on WetWebMedia.com.
Bob
Fenner> |
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Question about FW ray disease 4/26/06
Hi, I found your website online because I was looking for a diagnosis for my
motoro ray. This morning I was looking at and the front part of its disk on
top, from its eyes to the front are covered with about 20 white dots/ grows.
But the grows don't' look like ich?
<... perhaps flukes>
the dots seem to have volume, are white, seem to be about 1 mm in
diameter. they are just on the top 1 inch front of
the ray near its nose which seems weird. Is this some sort of fungus?
<Not likely>
It seems like it. I was wondering if you knew any sort of treatment, your
website basically states that all treatment is harmful to rays. =/
Thanks in advance,
Victor
<... You will need microscopic examination to determine what this is... and
maybe staining as well... There are reference works on fish pathology... I would
at least seek out Edward Noga's survey work (Fish Disease; Diagnosis and
Treatment) here. Bob Fenner>
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