Flame Angel will not eat while being treated... coppered  3/1/08
Hi guys,
I bought a flame angel fish and placed him in my 10 gallon quarantine tank. He was doing well and eating every type of frozen meaty foods that I fed him in addition to eating algae from a clip that I put in the tank daily. He was eating voraciously for over a week and now unfortunately he has come down with a case of Ich.
I am treating the tank with Copper but now he has stopped eating. He hasn't eaten for 3 days and he seems to be hanging in with the copper treatment but I'm afraid he'll die from starvation while I am trying to cure the Ich.
Do you have any advice for how I can get him to eat? I have tried putting some food in the tank but he just lets it float by and does not go after it like he did before.
I'd hate to lose this fish! Any advice you could offer would be much appreciated!
Thanks,
Lynne
<The copper... is mal-affecting this fish... causes it to go off-feed... I would NOT pre-emptorily copper Centropyge, Angels period... See WWM re Copper use, poisoning... I would summarily dip/bath and move this Flame to the main/display tank. Bob Fenner>

Sick angel... C. argi  10/16/07
HI,
I have a 55 gallon tank with two O. clowns, one yellow goby, one royal Gramma, and a cherub angel. About a week ago, the angel stopped eating, and his fins became ragged and frayed looking.
<Mmm, maybe the Gramma...>
I put him in quarantine, where I noticed one of his eyes was bulging. I have been searching and asking everywhere for help, and a few sources said he has fin and tail rot and to treat him with Maracyn.
<Mmm, no>
However, I do not think that is what he has. His eye bulged for only one day, but is now back to normal. I am almost certain he is blind, He swims in circles all day long occasionally bumping into things, and he will not eat at all. I have tried holding food right up to him but I get no response. He has not eaten in almost 7 days, and I am really worried about him. Should I use the Maracyn? I don't think it will help, but I just don't know
Charlene
<Does the system afford sufficient dark areas for this little Centropyge to get out of the light? What foods, supplements have you been offering? If this fish is still feeding, I would try Selcon, and Spectrum pelleted food of sufficiently small diameter. Bob Fenner>

Re: sick angel, blind C. argi  10/16/07
Hi,
Thank you for responding to me! I submitted the question about my sick Cherub, who I think is blind. The main system is set up with about 30 pounds of live rock, with some pieces of base rock arranged so there is many crooks, crannies, and caves. The angel really loved swimming through them, and the tank is taller rather then wider. I have been feeding him a variety of Mysis shrimp, pygmy angel formula from ocean nutrition, frozen emerald entree, and ocean nutrition green marine algae, which I would hang on the wall. Now that he is in quarantine, he is not eating at all, at least that I have seen. It has been 13 days now that I have last seen him eat. He swims from one side of the tank to the other almost without stop until the lights go out and then he goes over to one corner and turns almost completely white in color. I have added nothing to the hospital tank but vitamins (vita chem) and a little bit of Entice to his food (which has no effect) I have also been doing bi-weekly, small water changes to keep the water quality clean. Ph- 8.4, nitrates-o nitrites-o temp 78 SG 1.023 Is there anything else I can do for my little fish?
<Mmm, perhaps a deficiency syndrome still...>
Thank you, Charlene
(do fish ever regain lost eyesight?)
<Yes. Do keep trying the supplementation to foods. Bob Fenner>

Bubbles and Lips, Skimmers and Fish Injury 5/8/07
Good Morning everyone!
<Good morning to you.>
I have two questions that probably could be answered on the chat forums -- but I can't seem to register right now.  I hope that gets fixed soon.  <Me too.>   
I was fiddling with my CPR Bak Pak protein skimmer this weekend.  It hangs directly off the back of my display tank and the little pump that came with it seems to be failing.  The original pump was a Rio 600 RVT which seemed to do an OK job, but I was never happy with the open face of it. <Standard pump that comes with it, but does not have the greatest reputation for reliability.>  Nothing ever got sucked in but I've always been concerned, so I got a Maxijet 1200 as a replacement.  This pump solves the open face problem, but the air intake tubing just being jammed in the filter screen seems a bit cheap to me.   So anyway, I was experimenting with using an air pump to force air into the intake of the pump rather than allowing venturi action and I got good results by regulating how much air was sent in ... and it was my intention to pump the rest of the air into a regular air stone in the main tank ... until I realized that I rarely if ever see air bubbles, air stones etc. in marine tanks.  So what I'm asking is if there are technical reasons why people don't put air bubbles directly into the display tank?  <A couple of reasons, one is that they get clogged very quickly especially with all the life in a marine system.  Secondly the popping bubbles make quite a mess with salt spray.  The first effects you more here, you will need to change your airstone frequently here.>  
Second question is about a new acquisition, a Coral Beauty that is alone in a quarantine tank.   He eats very well and is very VERY active, spending his entire day swimming back and forth right in front of the glass-- maybe even against the glass.  He refuses to use either of the PVC caves I've provided (one white PVC the other black ABS) and prefers to sleep wedged into the suction cups from where the heater used to be (heater was moved to prevent burned CB problems).    But his upper lip is a like a thick white stripe.   It doesn't look like any sort of growth or covering like a fungus ... as much as it looks perhaps a tiny bit swollen and perhaps rubbed.  From all that swimming in front of the glass, maybe?  Does this suggest any action other than just further observation?  <Sounds like a physical trauma, maybe a shipping injury or even a burn from the heater.  Either way just keep up the water quality to prevent infection and observe.  I'm guessing with a little time this will heal.>
Thanks again!!!!
<Welcome>
<Chris>
 

The mystery of the disappearing Colini Angel   11/19/06
Hi crew,
I have really enjoyed reading through your website- which has provided a huge host of information for us relative newcomers to the hobby. So a big thank you for all you do.
<Welcome>
I have a 6-month old reef system:
450litres (120galUS)
70kg (154lbs) live rock with a reasonable amount of growth of stuff on them.
3 x 150Watt MH 14000K bulbs
2 x actinic blue tubes
V2Skim 1200 Protein skimmer
Large canister filter with ceramic discs
Heater
(calcium reactor on its way)
Parameters:
SG 1.023
Temp 25degC
Ammonia/nitrites nil
Nitrates 5ppm
Ph 8.0-8.1
Calcium 375ppm
The tank contains:
2 x Percula Clowns and a poorly but alive BT Anemone (rescued from LFS tank- probably a mistake)
1 x Copper Band Butterfly fish that eats anything and is really a character
1 x Powder Brown Tang
A few Emerald Crabs
7-8 Scarlet Hermits
5 x Cleaner Shrimps
Turbo Snails
Various softies and a few LPS and my trial SPS
12cm Maxima Clam (which is very cool)
Derasa Clam
2 x Serpent Stars
<Mmm... the chief suspects here>
On Monday I saw a 3 1/2" Colini Angel at the LFS and the owner was a little concerned it wasn't eating.
<Is a large specimen... too big for collection if I had been in the water>
I went home, read up what I could about this rare and difficult fish, then went back to the LFS, took pity on it and took it home. To cut a long story short, I stupidly put it straight into my main tank in the hope it would eat off the LR, which it appeared to do, taking up residence in a small rock cave
<Another clue>
near the substrate. It was very shy and didn't come out to feed but I thought just give it time and it might become bolder.
Anyway, it didn't really explore much. The Copperband was a bit nosey, but didn't hassle it. The Clowns and Tang left it alone completely. I fed it a little with target feeding of a mixture of mysis, enriched brine shrimp, fresh Nori and angel mix frozen, each morning and evening. I saw it eat some of the food. Unfortunately, the cave then filled up with hermit crabs and the emeralds looking for an easy feed!
<Likely so>
And now it has completely disappeared. I have dismantled as much of the LR as I can without causing too much damage and stressing the other fish, but it is absolutely nowhere to be seen. I've looked around the tank in case it has jumped.
<Good>
I've used a torch/flashlight to explore the caves and other hiding places, and it has just gone. Weird and scary. I've never had a disappearing fish before.
So, the questions...
1. Do you think it might just be hiding very, very well?
<Not likely, but a small possibility>
2. If so, do I need to try to find it, to coax it out to feed?
<Mmm, no, I would not... if it's still in there, it will come out when/if it wants to>
3. Could I have a hitchhiker, such as a mantis (if so, it would be the first fish take- but we've had some turbo snails taken- probably by the crabs)?
<Yes... though I suspect the Brittlestar/s>
4. If it has died, how essential is it to remove the body from the tank, or will the clean up crew, well, clear it up?
<This latter... it's very likely already gone... you might discern a slight "blip" in your measures of nitrogenous metabolites... might not...>
Dismantling the LR will be a real
drag, as the corals are all Milliputted in.
<Like this term>
Thanks so much for all you do for us hobbyists!
Best wishes,
Steve Spicer
Milton Keynes, UK
<Mmm, please do read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/brittlestarcompfaqs.htm
This Centropyge might have perished from "stress" alone... and the consequences would be about the same as you relate... the opportunistic piscivorous invertebrates would consume it, the decomposing microbes in your system do the rest... readily/quickly... Not to worry re chemical, physical consequences in a system of this volume, gear-make-up, maintenance. Bob Fenner>

C. eiblii on the fritz  - 11/11/06
Hi WWM crew Sorry for all these questions, but this morning when I woke up and turned on the fish light my Centropyge eibli was bloated by his pelvic and pectoral fins.  I fed them their normal three times today and he still eats, but he has a weird swim.  Should I do anything special for him or just see how it goes because he is still eating?
  Thank you so much!
<... please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/dwfangdisfaqs.htm
and the linked files above... Perhaps a vitamin/supplement addition to the food... maybe the use of an antibiotic. Need to discern a/the root cause/s here. And address them. Bob Fenner>

Re: C. eiblii on the fritz  - 11/13/06
Thank you for your response.  He died this morning he was in my 30 gallon tank, but was going to be upgraded to a 50 gallon.  I can not find the body is it okay to leave it in the 30 gallon tank or should I move all the live rock to look for it?
  Thanks
<A body this size, in this volume water... I would dismantle the rock, remove it. Especially if there is other livestock. Bob Fenner>

Centropyge eibli - 10/18/06
Hi Wet Web Media Crew
< Good day to you sir. >
I have a question about my Centropyge eibli he has been in quarantine one month and about 3-4 days ago I moved him into the main tank.  He is about 1.5".  He is eating good.  I feed my tank Mysis shrimp, plankton, a carnivore mix, emerald entree( a mix of algae foods), squid, brine shrimp as in occasionally treat, flake food, an algae flake food, and a saltwater mix.  My Centropyge eibli  is not scratching, not lethargic, or do anything that would make you believe his is sick.  He just has these like blackish markings on him that I noticed 2 days ago.  They do not appear to be any worse.  There is no aggression towards the eibli in the tank.  These markings are black, I can not tell if they are on the inside of the body or his scales, but you can see them, they are pretty small and there is one on each side of his bodies in different places one by the upper dorsal fin and one around his torso area.  They almost look like scraps, but I am not sure.  I have read all the FAQs on disease and selection about Centropyge.  I just want to make sure this is not abnormal like they are just markings and no disease.
Thanks for your quick response.
< From what you describe I would not be too concerned. You may be observing a stress response from the move to the new tank, or healing wounds possibly received while trying to find a nice hiding spot in the rocks. Just observe for change and be prepared to pull it out if stops feeding, looks worse, shows signs of disease etc etc... >
P.S. I could not get a picture of him because every time I would get close enough to take a pick he would come out of the rocks and dart back in because he saw me.
< A good sign! Environmental awareness is a good indicator of health. Best of luck to you! - Emerson >

Centropyge eibli - 10/19/2006
Hi Wet Web Media Crew  
<Hi MacL here with you today,>
I have a question about my Centropyge eibli he has been in quarantine one month and about 3-4 days ago i moved him into the main tank.  He is about 1.5".  He is eating good.  I feed my tank Mysis shrimp, plankton, a carnivore mix, emerald entree( a mix of algae foods), squid, brine shrimp as in occasionally treat, flake food, an algae flake food, and a saltwater mix.  My Centropyge eibli is not scratching, not lethargic, or do anything that would make you believe his is sick.  He just has these like blackish markings on him that I noticed 2 days ago. These markings are black, I can not tell if they are on the inside of the body or his scales, but you can see them, they are pretty small and there is one on each side of his bodies in different places one by the upper dorsal fin and one around his torso area.  They almost look like scrapes, but I am not sure.  I have read all the FAQs on disease and selection about Centropyge.  I just want to make sure  this is not abnormal like they are just markings and no disease. Thanks for your quick response.
P.S. I could not get a picture of him because every time I would get close enough to take a pick he would come out of the rocks and dart back in because he saw me.
<It sounds like his behavior is normal. It could be where he has scratched himself as he's adjusting to the new tank. Bumping into things when he makes dashes or it could be an internal parasite as well. I wouldn't go into high worry mode until he stops eating or has more problems but I would cautiously watch him as well.  I really like eibli angels for their personalities after they settle. But I have seen some of the centropyge have problems with parasites that manifest in this way. You feed a good mix and blend of food so that should help and with your tank stable that will help as well. I might consider adding garlic or some type of garlic food as a preventative, I've seen it work.  Should they become larger or more prominent some other type of action might be needed.>

- Coral Beauty Eye Cataracts? 7/27/06 -
Good Morning Gentlemen.
<Good morning.>
My husband purchased (for me) a previously owned 75g reef tank around May 7th, 2006 and one of it's occupants is a Coral Beauty Angel.  The previous owners had this tank for 3 or 4 years so I'm sure on the age of the Coral Beauty but I noticed that she had small white marks (for lack of a better description) on the lower part of her eye or eyelids when we got her.  She seems very healthy.  She eats well, is very active and interacts well with the other fish. However, I've noticed that these "marks" are slowly getting larger.  Could they be cataracts? <They could be, but it's difficult to be certain. If the white areas seem to be growing, do keep a lookout to make sure that it's not just cloudy - cloudy eyes are typically a reaction to water quality issues. You may want to run a test or two and prepare a water change, just in case.>
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Louise
<Cheers, J -- >

Angelfish and white spot, spare the formalin   7/7/06
I purchased a Coral Beauty Angelfish 2 weeks ago.  He is in QT.  Yesterday, I saw what looked like a white pimple on the front of his pectoral fin.  This morning the white spot is gone but his fin is frayed.  I thought he might have ich but I am not sure since it was one spot and was gone today.  He is eating normally. Should I treat with Formalin or observe longer?
<The latter. Is not likely parasitic/pathogenic... the formalin is far likely a source of trouble than help>
  If I treat with Formalin, do I just do a dip or do I also treat the QT?  Or is there something else I need to do?  
I have looked through FAQ's but still was not sure what I should do.
Thanks much for your help,
Jana Gibbs
<I would not use the formalin here. Too toxic, too stressful to be catching, manipulating this Centropyge. Bob Fenner>

Coral Beauty HLLE?    7/1/06
Hi, question for you.
<Hello John>
I currently have a mid size coral beauty in my quarantine system.  I purchase him 16 days ago from a LFS.  While in the QT he has developed a
small patch (approx the size of a match head) on his L side near his lateral line.  The area appears to be pale in nature and irregularly circular.  At
first I thought he may have just bumped against something in the tank but now watching it over the past 15 days.  It appears to have grown ever so
slightly.  Also yesterday I noticed a very tiny pale patch on the R side of his head.  Is this the beginning of HLLE?
<Possibly.>
I feed sparsely (given that he is in a QT) brine shrimp and Omega sea veggie flakes once a day each.  
<A poor diet such as this can certainly aid in further development of HLLE, if that is indeed what it is.>
The QT is a 15 gal long w/AquaClear 200 filter and carbon pouch.  Airstone w/pump, heater, small powerhead and PVC piping.   1 gal water is changed daily.  If this is HLLE should I attempt to treat it before placing him in my main aquarium or place move him in after he finishes out his QT time figuring the
better diet and water quality available in my larger system will fix him.
<You've just answered your own question here.  Better vitamin (Selcon, Vita-Chem) enriched diet and excellent water quality are the main factors in reversing HLLE.  There is no medication, in my opinion, that will effectively reverse this.  Do read FAQ's on this also.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/hllefaqs.htm>
My main system is a 65 gal w/20gal sump, live rock.  Thanks for your comments,     
<You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
John

Eye problem with my Lemonpeel angel fish   6/9/06
G'day crew, Chris from Australia here with a question for you. I visit and download as much info from your site as I can, as I find your information and help that is provided to be invaluable.
My question for you is an eye related problem. I have a lemon peel angel fish in a 90 litre tank,
<... too small...>
and my water parameters are as follows;
Calcium 350,
Alk normal to high,
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0,
phosphate 0.2-0.5
pH 8.0
Specific gravity 1.025
I have had problems with cloudy eye, which I treated with Epsom salts which worked well. A brown algae build up in my substrate got stirred up and the above problem come back.
<Very hard to keep small volumes stable...>
I do a 10% water change every week to keep up my water quality, run an Aqua C Remora Pro skimmer 24/7 and leave the lights off to slow algae, which has been successful, but the eye problem has gotten worse. The eye has what looks like a hard crust over it building up from the outside in , as well as brown discolourisation and now the other eye is starting to go cloudy.
<A bad sign>
The fish stills seems healthy, eats a lot, swims around and through the live rock, possibly scratching and inflaming the problem more. I have tried to be thorough looking through previous responses to other peoples questions but I have found none that sounds like what my fish has. I know you may have answered questions like this before so any references or direct advice you could give me is much appreciated.
Keep up the good work and thanks for helping by providing such a brilliant site.
Kind regards Chris.
<Thank you for your words of acknowledgement. As you point out, the highly likely root cause here is environmental... Fix this animal's world and you'll fix the animal. In all honesty it needs to be in a much larger system... 90 gallons or more, not 90 litres... Bob Fenner>

Cloudy eye on Potter's Angel  - 05/29/06
Greetings,
  I have a Potter's Angel and just noticed she has a cloudy eye on the right side. I am treating the tank for Ich with No-Ich made by Fish-Vet Inc.
<... Why?>
  I cannot find any info about cloudy eye in regards to Potter's Angel. Please help.
  Thanks in advance for any help.
<... Not an easily kept species... Read here: http://www.google.com/custom?q=cloudy+eye+potter%27s+angel&sitesearch=wetwebmedia.com
cached versions... a simple Google search with key terms... Bob Fenner>

Lemonpeel health...Splinter on back?  5/16/06
I have a Lemonpeel angelfish with a white almost splinter like thing high up on its dorsal fin, near the rear.  It almost looks like you could pick it off, yet looks like its embedded except for the part that's kinda sticking out.  Its about the size of a pin head.  Everything else with the fish seems to be normal, no other symptoms at all.  I have only had the fish 4 days.  Should I treat it just leave it alone since it seems to not have any other symptoms, or do think more symptoms will follow?
<I would keep an eye on it, look for any developing redness in the area.  Doesn't sound like anything much to worry about.  A pic would help.
James (Salty Dog)>
Respectfully,
<Robin, in future queries, do not put all the personal info below your name.  I do delete this for your privacy as these queries are posted daily and viewed by gazillions of people.>
Robin  

Possible fungal infection  - 03/12/2006
Hi Crew!
  I have a Potters Angel in quarantine. I have had him for almost a month. He is in a 55 gallon quarantine that I started with  water from the main display and a power filter that I had on the display for 2 months prior to setting up my quarantine.
<Good set-up... this is a "touchy" species for aquarium use (by coincidence I'm out in their home waters in HI>
I do 30 - 40% water changes every other day. I feed a variety of good frozen foods and alternate Vita-Chem and Selcon. He gets Algae strips daily.  He was the picture of health at purchase, he ate and was very alert and curious . The guy at the LFS only used one net to catch him [I even went and grabbed another for him, but he didn't  think it necessary]
<Foolish... two nets please!>
When he finally caught the fish, I thought it looked as if his mouth was pinned to the glass with the net. He seemed fine when I got him home, so I didn't dwell on the rough treatment of my Pretty Angel... But then last week I noticed his fins fraying . Around that time he lost his spunk, he was not swimming all over the tank picking at the decor anymore. He was also not eating as well as before. He seemed to swim more  on the bottom. I started doing daily water changes but that did not seem to help. I started treating him with Furan-2. I was getting ready to do my morning water change after the second dose when I noticed the Angels mouth, It looked horrible!! It almost looked as if it had exploded! I got the flashlight out and stared at him for an hour it seems. He has something white  in his mouth.  The white stuff is also hanging out of his mouth, and parts of his mouth look torn. I have tried to get a picture, but they all turn out too dark.
<... might well be subsequent to the net thrashing. Arggghhhh!>
  I want to save my Angel. I am not sure what course of action to take next but I feel I need to act quickly. I know fungal infections are rare but the more I read, the more I think that's what I'm dealing with. I purchased some Maroxy [sp?]
<This is it>
today and I also have some Kanacyn, both say they treat fungal infections. I cannot decide which to use. I need your expert opinion please!
  Thank you all so much for taking the time to help!!
  P.S. It is 4am, I am dead tired so I hope this letter is legible
  Thanks again, Kim
<Either of these materials could/can be used... if the last, the antibiotic, it's best to try getting some into the fish via offered foods... Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible fungal infection, Centropyge  - 03/13/2006
Thanks Bob.
  I started the Kanacyn Saturday morn. He is still alive. He can't eat due to the white 'growth' in his mouth unfortunately .
  Keep your fingers and toes crossed that he pulls through!!
  Thanks again!
<Am rootin' for you and your Potter's... a gorgeous species, but one that does poorly by and large in captivity. Bob Fenner>

Bicolor angel/disease?   3/4/06
Hi Bob <James today>
I'm a huge fan and love your book. <Bob thanks you.>  I have a 125g FOWLR tank that's been running for almost three months now.  My bicolor angel just started
to rub his face against some of the LR yesterday and has no physical signs of any parasites. <May be too early to see.>  He's  looks good and has been eating fine
though.   Do you think this is the beginning of ICH ? <Don't know> What should I do right now ? <I'd watch closely and at first sign of disease transfer to QT.> Leave him there or give him a dip and QT for several weeks? I was thinking of doing a five minute Methylene blue  dip and QT with
Cupramine for two weeks. <I really don't like treating fish unless I know for sure that they are infected.  Was the fish in QT before going into the display?>  In the main tank I also have: 1 blue throat trigger, 2 clarkiis, 3 Chromis
Your help is highly appreciated.   It's a tough hobby, <Not so tough, as long as we don't make it tough.>  buts it's people like you who keep us going !
thanks <You're welcome.  James (Salty Dog)>
Peter
 

Angel In Distress?   12/29/05
To the WWM Crew
<Scott F. with you tonight!>
Bob, thank you very much for your help about the Brooklynella/formalin but I think that my move was too late...
Now I have another problem with a beautiful and young Flame. He is in another QT , 30 Lt. He arrived 6 days ago, is eating, and his behavior is ok. Something is wrong because is color is becoming pale and there white powder on is fins (not transparent). Sometimes he scratch the pvc tubes on the tank bottom.
<Hmm...could be ich or some other parasitic illness.>
I put Coppersafe in the tank, and will wait till tomorrow.
So, please tell me if I must do something else.
Best regards
Flávio
<Well, Flávio, if you suspect parasitic illness, medication is not a bad idea. However, do exercise caution with copper and Centropyge angels, which are notoriously sensitive to it. Monitor copper levels constantly and adjust as necessary to maintain a proper therapeutic dosage. Be ready to remove the fish or dilute the copper levels if the fish shows signs of distress ("burning" fins, loss of appetite, etc.). Formalin is preferred with these fishes. If you are very attentive, and continue observing and monitoring the copper level, you can be successful with this! Follow the manufacturer's recommendations on dosage and duration of the treatment to the letter. Good luck! Regards, Scott F.>

Spots  11/7/05
Hi Crew,
<Steven>
Basic question:
I have a Bicolor dwarf angel that has displayed since I bought him two spots on one his (side) fins. They are larger than the pictures of ick that is shown on various photos I have researched on your site. Also he has not displayed any signs of flashing or scratching, he is breathing fine, grazes all day on live rock, and eats well. He is active and not showing any negative signs to suspect anything other than the visible spots. 
I would estimate that the size of the spots would be equal to two large grains of salt each (at least). I have had him now for 10 days and no change, other than he has eaten better each day (getting used to his surroundings). 
Question: is ick considered very virulent
<Can be... or more "resting"... depending on conditions, infectivity>
and with this much time with visible spots would one expect the spots to either multiply, fall off (progression of ick), and make the fish progressively act more stressed/sick?
<What you are seeing may be pathogenic (encysted worms most likely, perhaps sporozoan...) but not likely "catching" or spreading... requires the death of the host, other vectors (intermediates) to spread>
I have a 40 watt UV sterilizer, 250 gallons with 250 lbs. of live rock, plus wet/dry, skimmer (skimming well), practice weekly water changes, Phos Ban, Kent Activated Carbon, and refugium with crushed live rock and Caulerpa. I keep the water very pristine (in my humble opinion).
Also no other tank inhabitants show any signs of spots, including the ick magnet tangs (Chevron and Orange shoulder). 
<Good point, info.>
I feed a very varied diet of frozen angel preparations, omnivore, carnivore, Mysis, as well as Nori sheets soaked with Zoecon and Kent Garlic extreme. I wasn't sure if fish could pick up a random parasite that is nothing to be worried about and not otherwise contagious... is this possible?
<Nothing to worry about category>
I don't think I will treat for anything or even consider moving to a QT tank since there are no signs of stress other than the visible spots.. do you agree? 
<Yes, emphatically>
Your comments are greatly appreciated, and as always, every one of you are to be commended for your dedication.
Steven
<Cheers, Bob Fenner> 

Re: Spots  11/8/05
Good Morning Bob,
<'Morrow to you Steven>
Thank you for your reply regarding the white spots on my Bicolor angel. 
<Welcome>
Let's for the sake of agreement set aside the possibility that it is ick and instead focus on that this is pathogenic, perhaps sporozoan as you mentioned.  Is this condition self limiting?
<Likely, usually so>
As a general rule do these sporozoans multiply within or on the host fish and are they lethal?
<Generally not... lest/until conditions disfavor their host too much...>
I know from an emailed description you can only apply your experience in rendering advice,
<Yes... of a necessity... honesty. But first and other hand...>
however I think many people see something odd, and automatically want to have the "shot gun" approach and begin treating, often times doing more damage than what they are treating for.
<Ahh, you are wise here... particularly "in the West", folks too often over- mis-treat... well-intentioned, or not, doing so is a source of more mortality than all other causes combined IMO>
For this reason, I want to always check myself with someone else and not take an irrational approach.
<Good... or at least we are in agreement here>
With the size of tank I have and the large amount of live rock, I only want to attempt to catch this fish if I absolutely have to.
Again thank you!
Steven
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Dwarf Angel with Rotting Fin Caused by Shrimp? 10/25/05
Hi Everyone,
<Hello Casper> 
First of all, thanks for the great site, I read it everyday and try my best to follow all the recommendations you all make. First of all I have a Dwarf Flame Angel in a reef tank. He has always been happy and never seems to have a problem. Three days ago I added two Lysmata amboinensis "Skunk Cleaner Shrimp" (?) to the tank. 
I was instantly amazed at how the angel reacted and started interacting with the shrimp. He spent the first couple days receiving constant cleaning from the pair. Today when I looked at him, I noticed that one of his side fins was missing about 1/3 of the fin. 
The fin does not appear to be diseased as it is very clean looking. The fish is swimming around like nothing is wrong. He is not scratching, eating fine, has no other spots or marks, and this is isolated to only one fin. 
Do you think that he is being over cleaned by the shrimp? Could there be some underlying disease that the shrimp are taking care of? Do I need to treat the fish with any medications? I gratefully look forward to any advice
you might have. 
<Casper, I would let nature take its course. Nothing to be alarmed about, fin will grow back. James (Salty Dog)> 

Sick Coral Beauty  9/19/05
Hi Guys
<How goes it?>
I kinda feel guilty having to bother you, but I have a Coral Beauty in need.
<Not a problem, that's why we volunteer :)> I have a 20 gallon tank (a little small) with two protein skimmers, both for 60 gallon tanks and I'm using carbon and Poly Filter with 20-25% water changes weekly.
<Sounds good>
The water is 78 F, S.G. 1.024 , ph 8.2 , ammonia  0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0-5.
<All good>
The animals are 1-Coral Beauty (Sunrise), 1-Black Clown (Dab), 1-Banded Shrimp (Aunt Tennay), 1-Turbo Snail (Wetfoot). I've had them for a little more than a year. I was feeding Brine shrimp with Spirulina almost exclusively (my mistake I think).
<Not nearly varied enough, and brine shrimp do not provide much nutritional value>
I'm now feeding seaweed (red and green), Spectrum dry, an omnivorous and an Angel formula with sponge in it.
<Great!>
Sunrise has fading color to the point of spottiness in places, lightly tattered fins and has done some twitching and scraping, is losing his appetite and hides too much now. The quarantine tank is ready but I can't figure out if I should use it or what I would do if I did.
<Keep up the varied diet...try to get a hold of some live Mysid shrimp (www.Reed Mariculture.com is a great source of live foods of all types) to feed Sunrise as well.  Don't make the move to a quarantine tank until you can positively identify a disease.  This will hopefully work itself out.  Everything else you're doing is fine, so for now it's just wait and see>
Thanks for any help you can offer.
<Anytime>
James
<Michael Maddox>

Possible fin or tail rot?  9/7/05
Hi
<Hello Jeri>
I have a coral beauty angel that is having some issues. We have a 46 gal tank.
<Too small...>
Wet/dry filter, 2 powerheads, and a penguin bio wheel power filter (to acclimate the wet/dry). We have 2 clowns, 1 coral
beauty, 20 red leg hermits, 7 turbo snails, 1 emerald crab, 1 cleaner shrimp (Super cool), and a Condylactis
anemone. And about 20lbs. live rock. Water conditions are ammonia & nitrite 0, nitrate 30ppm, Salinity 1.022,
<I would raise, keep this near 1.025>
Ph 8.2 & Temp 80 degrees. (which is high, we normally run at 76 - 78 degrees). We just got back
from vacation and will remedy that problem. My Coral Beauty has what looks to be fin or tail rot
now.  We thought the fish had Lymphocystis and let it run its course. We just tried to keep water quality good and fed healthy diet.
<Good... this is what I would have done>
Now the spots have fallen off and it looks like in most of the places the spots were he has holes. When we left him on Friday he had 2
holes in his tail. LFS asked if he was eating, which he is better than ever, and if the holes looked
frayed. At that time they were not. LFS said it could be one of the clowns and that usually when you have a
complete hole in the middle part of a fin that it is usually a bite from another fish. Said to watch fish for changes.
<Mmm, no... very likely is water quality directed... from your wet-dry type of filtration, stress from being in a small system...>
Well we just got back from vacation and the holes are frayed in the tail, the right side of his mouth is
white (looks swollen and discolored), and he seems to have a nasty sore or ulcer on the ridge of his back.
Also where he had the largest of the white spots. He is eating and swimming better than he ever has before.
We are not sure what this is or what to do for him.
<Could, can modify the wet-dry, add other filtration moda... DSB, Refugium, macro-algae... more live rock...>
We do have a hospital tank available for him, but we just don't know how to treat him and our LFS is closed
for 2 days. Our QT is 20 gal tank with a blue damsel in it. We have a separator net we use when
quarantining a fish. Not sure what to do in the case of treating a fish. This tank has a penguin BioWheel
powerfilter as well, powerhead, airstone, and some PVC.
I guess my questions are:
Do you know what is wrong with the Coral Beauty?
<Environment mostly, likely nutritional, social aspects secondarily>
What should we do about it?
<Consider improving the above>
If he needs to be treated in the QT, do we need to remove the biological filter?
<Mmm, no benefit in moving this animal, not a pathogenic disease...>
I think that is everything. Sorry for the long email, but I did searches on the
FAQ about fin rot, white mouth, & Lymphocystis couldn't find the help I needed.
Thanks,
Jeri
<No worries re length. State what you think is important (you have done this well). Please start reading here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mardisease.htm
to gain an understanding, more holistic view of what "disease" is... then here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/index.htm
for the linked FAQs files above on Centropyge "Systems", "Disease/Health", and "Feeding". Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible fin or tail rot?  9/8/05
Thanks for great advice. I will start raising the
salinity slowly. There is one sore on his back that seems to be open and I can see some pink. It is where
the largest white spot was. I know you said to improve environment, but would he benefit from PolyAqua? That
was recommended from LFS and to improve his environment.
<The PolyAqua will not improve the environment or benefit this fish>
We are looking to get more live rock for the tank. Also I have heard about putting small pieces of Live
Rock in the wet/dry instead of bio balls. Does that really work to keep the system clean?
<Yes...>
I had no idea that our tank would be too small for this fish.
<You can read re... on WWM, books>
I don't know what some LFS are doing. You ask for advice and assume it will be good.
<My real "advice" is assume nothing in this world indefinitively>
Glad I found you all here to double and triple check any other advice I get. We are saving up to buy a Tenecor
Marine ready 150 gal tank. We may be buying sooner than we thought.
I will check out the articles/FAQs that you recommended.
Thanks!
<Real good. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible fin or tail rot?  9/8/05
This morning the Coral Beauty is not eating, breathing
very hard, laying vertical against a rock, and letting
the hermit crabs & emerald crabs eat away at his fins.
He is swimming into them and staying there like they
are cleaner shrimps. Water parameters all same except
temp is 78 and salinity is about 1.023. Clowns are
eating and doing well.  
<...>
We are going to remove him from the tank so the crabs
can't do anymore damage. What else can we do for him?
Jeri
<... read... what is your take on the size, type, quality of habitat... its suitability for this species? Bob Fenner>

Re: Possible fin or tail rot?  9/8/05
Our LFS has been testing our water quality every time we are there. They do not sell fish to people with
unsafe water conditions. I was told by them and from things we have read that 40ppm nitrates is not toxic.
<Depending on the "cause/s" of nitrate accumulation... In general, more than 20 ppm. is to be avoided...>
We are trying to improve the water quality by adding
more live rock, on the recommendation of WWM.
<Good... takes time>
I had read that dwarf angels need to be in at least
30gal tanks.
<Only the "dwarf dwarfs" can be housed in such small quarters... most Centropyge require a minimum of sixty uncrowded gallons (not tank size, volume of water) for one specimen... Others here would say one hundred gallons>
1 angel per 50 gal of water because they
can be aggressive toward each other (even when they have lots of room). They like to eat off of live rock.
They are not the hardiest of fish, but not the most sensitive angel.
<Yes>
It was my understanding that he would do fine in our tank as long as we didn't overstock it.
We were told that we would not have a problem with the 2 clowns and the Coral Beauty outgrowing the tank. And
like I mentioned earlier we are looking to get a much larger tank by the time these fish are full size.
<Need it now>
We are trying to make more informed decisions by using
all different types of references. A lot of the information we are receiving contradicts each other
and as a saltwater novice it's hard to figure out what is best. We are doing the best we can and are not
purposely setting out to kill fish, as that would be a very expensive & cruel hobby.
<Agreed>
I do thank you for all of your help and will continue to read your site and learn as much as I can.
Thanks,
Jeri
<Jeri, it may seem self-serving, but I encourage you to "step back" here, read a "complete" book on marine aquarium keeping to gain a firm overall understanding, basis. I encourage you to visit your local library, check out what they have. I will state that I am the author of one of these works, "The Conscientious Marine Aquarist"... Bob Fenner>

Re: ich treatment for dwarf angels  8/27/05
FYI... dwarf angels don't do well with a full dose of rid ich.  all  three are
now dead.  ph, salinity, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate were all  very good.  
after two weeks of treatment ich was not totally gone.   maybe it was the
ich...maybe it was two weeks of formalin.  none the less,  very unsuccessful. <Beware of formalin... a biocide. RMF>

Coral Beauty swimming like a seahorse? 8/21/05
I have a 46 gallon tank. We have 2 clownfish, several snails & hermit crabs, a Condylactis anemone, and a
coral beauty. The coral beauty is swimming like a seahorse. Head up, tail down. He has been doing that
ever since we moved him into the main tank 3 days ago.
<Ohhh>
He was doing well in the QT, swimming, not eating real well. He mostly hid in the QT. I have tested the water
quality and it is great Ammonia 0 nitrite 0, nitrate 10ppm, Ph 8.3, temp 78, salinity 1.022. The clowns are
great eating everything in sight but the Coral Beauty
is not eating at all and then the funny swimming. We have tried frozen brine shrimp, Marine cuisine,
emerald entree, seaweed, and the angel mix. Nothing is working. What can be causing him to swim this way? Any
suggestions on how to get him to eat?
<Mmm, could be a few things re the swimming, non-eating... most likely damage (gas bladder most commonly, by needling for decompression post-capture) in the process of collection, transport... Or a sting... from the Condylactis?>
He looks tired and his gills are starting to look a little white or pale. What can we do to help this fish?
Thank you for any help,
Jeri
<Mmm, really only improving water quality, hope... Do you have live rock? The organisms found in/on this are often about all Centropyge angels do initially feed on... and the LR would help to improve water quality... Bob Fenner>

Re: Coral Beauty swimming like a seahorse? 8/22/05
We do not have any live rock. We are talking about finding a reputable place here in Denver to get fully
cured live rock and/or sand. With live sand how much should be put on the bottom of a 46 gallon tank?
<Ahh, I would definitely be adding the best you can, soon>
Back to the coral beauty. If he was stung by the
anemone, how long would the effect last? Is there a way to force feed him?
<Not easy to force feed... stings can last days, weeks>
I noticed he has one white spot on his right side. It
looks to be one large grain of salt embedded in his skin. He also seems to have scraped his neck/back
area. His spikes look a little gray and are frayed a bit in that area. We have been watching the clowns
closely and they are doing great. They are eating everything in sight, and look very healthy.
<All markings are stress-related>
The store had the Coral Beauty for 3 weeks swimming
and eating fine, we had in QT for 2 weeks and it was swimming fine, mostly hiding, but not eating real
well. We moved him to the main tank when our QT spiked ammonia and water changes were not helping it. We
thought it would be better for the fish to be in better water conditions.
<Mmm, on to that LR. Bob Fenner>

Re: Coral Beauty needs help  8/26/05
Spot is on left side and now left gill not working. He
is spending a lot of time at the top of the tank, We
did a 10% water change tonight to keep water optimum.
Nitrates still showing about 10 -20ppm. So we will
keep working on that. What can I do to help this fish?
<Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dwfangdisfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

New Flameback angel (Centropyge aurontonotus) fat belly
Hi. I bought a flameback 2 days ago and noticed that he has an enlarged belly and that he has a white patch at the bottom of his belly, near his anal fins.
<From stretching?>
Should I treat him with antibiotics - I'm thinking he got infected because he may had been decompressed with a needle.
<May be...>
Or should I treat him for internal parasites?
<No>
If I do both, which treatment should I do first?
<For "blockage"... add a level teaspoon of Epsom Salt per ten gallons of system water...>
Thank you for website and the great advice that you give.
Oh...water parameters in my 10g QT are all good. NH3=0, NO3=0, SG=1.025, temp=78F.
<Hopefully, this too shall pass. Good luck, life. Bob Fenner> 

Re: New Flameback angel (Centropyge aurantonotus) fat belly
Thanks Bob, but the little guy did not make it. I found him dead this morning.  I am curious on how to determine if a flameback has internal parasites vs. "blockage" or internal infection. 
<Can be necropsied... cut open for investigation, microscopically examined. Can do, or have done, a histological work-up. Bob Fenner>

- Coral Beauty Angel -
I recently started my first salt water aquarium, and things have been going very well so far.  I have a 55 gallon drilled tank with an Amiracle wet/dry, Remora Pro skimmer, 45lbs of Fiji live rock, two tank raised clowns, and a banded coral shrimp so far along with some turbo snails and a hermit crab. The other day I brought home a coral beauty angel, and put it in my quarantine tank (glad I did so).  It looked great at first, but now it has a lot of tiny white spots on it.  I have seen ich on regal tangs and full size angels in pet stores before, and it looks like this.  When I brought the fish home two days ago I gave it a 4 minute fresh water dip (ph and temp adjusted) as your site recommends.  I added it to my 10 gallon quarantine tank that has an 8 watt UV on it (way overkill). <Is OK, a fine place to run UV.> Is it normal for this fish to get ich even with the freshwater dip? <Not abnormal.> What can I do to get rid of it? <Dip again, vacuum the bottom of the quarantine tank. Make sure you have a flow rate sufficient to kill protozoans with the UV.> Once the symptoms have disappeared, is there any way to be sure it is gone (my main concern is not infecting the display tank)? <Keep up the quarantine for at least two weeks. If symptoms don't reappear, then you should be OK adding the fish to the main tank.> Should I give it another longer dip (it didn't seem to like the first one much, so I am reluctant). <That won't hurt.> If there is no sure way to do this would you recommend trying to return the fish to the pet store? <No... I'd try and see this through. These fish are for the most part, surprisingly tough.> Please give me any advice you can, this is the first hurdle I have run into. <Well, you did the right thing by putting the fish in quarantine. Good job.> I am hoping to get through it smoothly. <I think you will.> I am hoping that by reading as much as I can and being smart about things I can avoid most of the problems people have switching to salt. <I think you are off to a good start.>
Thanks!
-Ken  
<Cheers, J -- >

Any hope for this Coral Beauty?
Hello WWM Crew,
Unfortunately, my letter today is not a happy one.
<You're telling me... your message is in HTML!>
I have recently completed a fishless cycle with my new 50 gallon reef tank. The water parameters have now stabilized and are ideal per the recommendations on this site. The cleaning crew and so on are in place. To 'celebrate' the new tank's readiness for fish after a very long 3 month wait, my non marine hobbyist friend bought me a Coral Beauty angelfish. 
I received it in a deep bucket in the evening and, naturally, we acclimated it over several hours via a drip in dim lighting so I was not really able to see it completely. I was aware that it had a torn tailfin, but it looked minor in the darkness. He seemed to be all right; breathing a little hard but nothing too serious, so I introduced him to his QT with the lights off and went to bed. 
When I awoke in the morning and saw him with the lights on, I was appalled. I have never seen a fish in this condition before. His fin spines are exposed completely, his tail is torn and both it and a patch on his body look like they are developing a fungal infection. But worst of all is his mouth. His mouth is so raw, swollen and damaged that it is painful to look at him. It's completely white and blood vessels are visible. 
I tried to tempt him with some Nori and Formula One, but he was disinterested in both. I'm actually wondering if he is physically capable of eating with his mouth in that condition. He is rapidly breathing, but apart from that, swims normally and appears alert and plump. Is there any hope for this fish?
<Some, but not much... sounds too damaged>
What can I do for him. My husband took one look and declared him hopeless, but I'm not willing to give up on him. Suggestions?
<To add a bit of LR to the quarantine tank, keep the spg a little low (1.021 or so), keep trying different foods, and hope... Bob Fenner>
 

Angels Fallen from Grace Dear Crew, You guys, and gals, have been a Godsend.  <Thank you, nice to mention our fair maidens.>  Thanks to you and all that have gone before we have now a fairly stable young reef tank in the making. We are still having a few problems with pH and alk but we're working on it. However, this problem is completely out of the norm, if there is such a thing and if possible would like a couple of different opinions. This morning I woke up to find both my Coral Beauty and my Flame Angel dead! The Coral Beauty was in the back and I scooped him out but when the lights kicked on and everyone came out for breakfast I didn't see the Flame. Found him a minute later on the other end of the tank and removed him also. Immediately removed some water and tested. pH 7.8, amm.0, nitrites a trace maybe .1, nitrates less than 10 All tests done with SeaTest. S.G. is 1.027. I am writing this at 1700 hrs. and the pH is now 8.4. I know I need to stop this swing... <The swing is normal, ph will lower through the night, more so if you have macro algae.>  ... and we are in the process of hooking up a 60 gal. sump with a Mag36, a refugium, and the reverse photo period. The water has been stable as far as what I can test for. Never any ammonia, nitrates never above 10, and usually 0 nitrites. The tank is 125 gal. acrylic with a 5 to 6 inch sand bed, 100 to 130 lbs of live rock a TurboFlotor HOT skimmer with Ocean runner 2700 pump, pulls about cup of really yucky skimmate every couple of days, we change 10 to 20% of the water every week, (rarely do we miss a w/c). Use Instant Ocean Salt in buffered well water.  There are also four P.H.s doing 300 gph each and an Aqua Clear HOT that does 500 gph. In the AquaClear is Marineland Black Diamond carbon that is changed every week (a good 8 oz. ).  Now the description of the fish. Both of them looked perfect in body and fins and we have had the CB angel for a little over a year and the Flame at least 6 mths. They did not fight or even chase one another. Last night when I fed all seemed normal.  ( We feed: frozen Formula 1 & 2, Brine shrimp plus, mysids, Prime Reef, Cyclop-eeze and Formula 1 flakes. No, not all at once. )  Now when I found the Coral Beauty and looked at it up close in my hand the first thing I noticed was its mouth. It was white! not fuzzy. It appeared the flesh was gone of just its lips. Do fish have lips?  <Sort of>  His body color, his fins everything visible looked perfect. But the lips had no flesh and was rough to the touch. Then I found the Flame and his mouth was the same. No tears no red just white bony lips. I have a couple of SMALL hermits somewhere in the tank but nobody was picking on the bodies.  <Not that you saw, perhaps during the night.>

The inhabitants are:  2-1in. Green Chromis, 2 Firefish, 1 Blue Gudgeon, 1 Scissortail Dart, 1 2in. Sixlined Wrasse, 1 3 in. Canary Wrasse/Yellow "Coris", 3 Skunk Cleaner Shrimp, 1 Coral Banded Shrimp and a variety of corals.  That is everything I can think of and probably a lot more than needed, but you never know. The only thing I have done differently in the last week is I added Purigen to the AquaClear last Wed. (Apr. 20). I have never used this before but I trust the company and read over the archives, finding no negatives. I also used SeaChem's Reef buffer for the first time but less than the directions called for. (I am leery of additives and want to wait for the sump to be finished before I start dumping in stuff I'm not familiar with).  I mention the inverts because I would expect them to be the first to react to adverse water conditions and it is strange to me that something would kill two seemingly healthy fish of the same genus and not affect anything else.  P.S. It is the next morning now, (I type reeeaaallly slow), the actinics just came on and everyone left is out for breakfast and looking fine. The only thing I did yesterday was clean the AC filter, remove the Purigen which had been in 6 days, and added fresh carbon and Poly Filter. I did not do a w/c because the only water I had ready was what I had used last week and wanted to make up some new just in case it was the water but I doubt it.  Am hoping that someone there has some idea what this could be. BTW both fish came from the same LFS but like I said at least 6 mths apart. Have tried to attach pictures hope they help (hope they get there). Thank you so much for your time and efforts. Diane and Tom. P.S.P.S The actinics have been on 30 min. and the pH is 8.0, barely, and the alk. is 2. meq./L.  I really miss my angels already but don't know if the symptoms are indicative of poisoning, something peculiar to dwarf angels?  <It seems unlikely that this would be poisoning. I'm sure you don't spray Windex near the tank or any other ammonia based chemical. Inverts will usually handle more ammonia than fish. Other than that, I'm at a loss for an explanation. I will put this in a folder and Mr. Fenner may offer more information. You mention well water. Do you RO this water or use it directly from the tap. Quite possible this may have had something in it. Fertilizers etc, eventually get down to your water table. The angels you had are more sensitive to water chemistry changes than the rest of your fish. James (Salty Dog)>