Tank Moving and Cycling – 5/1/07
Hi ya'll!! Love the site!
<Hey there! Thanks!>
I'm a newbie to saltwater and am asking this question for more for my own edification than anything else.
<ok>
I just mixed water and salt mix in my 75 gallon tank.  I added 60lbs of live sand and 72lbs of live rock.  Within 24 hours of doing this, I had a tank-filter hose leak bad enough where I had to break down the tank, move it, pull up the carpet / padding and have to have the carpet pad replaced and the carpet replaced.
<Eeek!  That’s not fun.>
My questions are
(1) now that I've setup the tank in a temporary location, I'm presuming that I will use the test kit to determine if the cycle has finished and perform a water change as needed to get the levels down just like it were in it's original spot?
<Yes.  When your ammonia and nitrites are back down to zero, it is cycled. If they do not rise much, you may want to add a tiny bit of fish food to get it going. If it is well cured live rock, you may not see any cycle, and readings will stay at zero. Read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm >
(2) When I get ready to move the tank back it's original position, will it need to recycle b/c the live rock will exposed to air, albeit a short time, again b/c of the breakdown process?
<No.  If you just remove it all to containers while you move the tank and setup, you should not have any appreciable loss of bacteria.  Don’t leave the rock out of water, just set it in the containers of water.  Buy some Rubbermaid stock if you are planning on being in this hobby for long – we keep them in business.  Hee!>
Is there anything else that I need to worry about or can do to take
preventative measure - or am I just extending the time before I can get fish and inverts by doing another move?
<This should not slow you down.  It is just very inconvenient.>
Many thanks in advance!
<Welcome. Alex>

Cycling and ph and Alkalinity Levels
Hi Crew,
I'm in the process of cycling a new 12 gallon nano tank.  This is my third tank but I never tested alkalinity until after the cycling was finished on the other two.  Anyway, with the new tank, water went in on 9/1, live rock in on 9/3.  I'm cycling with the live rock and some food scraps (flake food and a little krill).<Add a few hermits to eat this stuff and let them produce the waste.>  The pH has been at 7.8 since the beginning but Alk is 5.6 mEq/l.  When cycling, should a person
attempt to adjust either of these parameters or just leave it alone until the cycling has stopped? <I would not worry about these parameters until the tank is fully established.  Do 10% water changes weekly.> Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are elevated,
which I expected.  I have the proper stuff to raise the pH but I'm not sure how to lower the alkalinity.  Advice on lowering the Alk, please. <Leave the Alk where it is, the lower ph during cycling will gradually lower the Alk.  Don't worry about these parameters right now.  James (Salty Dog)>
Richard

Saltwater Cycling - 10/9/05
Hey Crew,
<<Hello>>
I have a question, ok a lot of questions about my 75 gallon tank cycling, the thing is that it isn't. I bought 79 lbs of LR from FFE, 45 lbs of premium Fiji, and 24 lbs of Tonga branch. The rock has been in there for 2 weeks and nothing has happened, also I have been aggressively skimming with my SeaWorld Systems skimmer, but throughout the two weeks haven't even produced one full cup of skimmate.
<<That must have been some good live rock and sand. You will not see skimmate unless there is something to skim. With no bioload you would expect no skimmate.>>
The water is crystal clear and here are my parameters:
pH: 8.2 
Nitrate: 20
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0
Alkalinity 11 dKH
Calcium 400 
What do you guys think is going on? I also have a 1' live sand bed, no affects either, I have double checked with other test kits, and wouldn't it be strange if all of the tests were funky? Lastly, the water in my tank is evaporating at the speed of light! Every day I put in about half a gallon of freshwater, because the water is low, and the salinity is high 1.026 (refractometer measured) I like to keep the salinity at 1.024. I have 3 chromis and a twin spot goby in my QT (Eclipse 12 good qt?) I was wondering if I could put them into the main tank yet?
<<That would be up to you. You could try forcing another cycle, but the fact that there are nitrates present shows that a cycle has occurred. To check the balance of your system you just need to feed the tank for a few days or throw a cocktail shrimp into the tank. Any decaying organic matter will cause an ammonia spike which should be followed by nitrites that are quickly converted to nitrates. In our closed systems the cycle usually ends with nitrates which need to be removed through water changes or a refugium/deep sandbed. I would not be afraid to add the fish to your tank, but to be 100% sure you may want to run a test cycle as I mentioned above.>>
Thanks for all of your hard work and dedication,
Clare 
<<TravisM>> 
 

Finner, Fenner, To-may-to, To-mah-to, and Getty Lee? - 12/11/2005 Q. for Finner <Thought my surnames sake was for draining swamps/fens... but maybe...> Hi Mr. Finner. I several questions about what is going on with the cycling tank of Sea In The City. Marcye said you had been helping her while I was away on vacation. I have the "I gotta know why attitude" when it comes to aquariums. To get to the point Macye said the tanks started to drop Nitrite a couple of days after she added the old carbon you suggested. I suggested a 100% water change <... such large scale changes should be avoided in almost all situations> and adding about 50 lbs of seeded live rock. She did the 100% water change and added about 10lbs of uncured live rock. Since she added uncured live rock I would expect it would take some time to fully cycle and the old carbon seeded the bacteria to help bring down the nitrite. Does this sound correct? <Mmm, a possibility. The wholesale water change could kill most all microbial life...> I also thought that she was in a cycle freeze just like a former aquarist had problems that came up in Julian Sprung's Reef notes Volume 1 page 58. I had seen this once before when an aquarist put 7 damsels in a 35 hex with a Millennium 1000 filter and feed like there was no tomorrow. They went 2 months with high nitrite and high nitrate. After doing 100% water change and cleaning the gravel it broke through with the cycle. Then placed 3 damsels in 3 days later and cut back the feeding. After that everything went like clock work. Have you ever heard or seen this before? <Yes> As I said before I got to know more about this. Thank you for your time and tell Anthony Getty Lee said "Hi". Russell <Will do... BobF, quizzical> <<Uhh, does Anthony know Getty Lee??  -Sabrina, wishing she were working on these FAQs in HI and listening to some Rush....>> Re: Q. for Finner  12/13/05 Looks like I crapped out on the time frame. Sorry. <No worries> The reason for the big water change that I understood was to get rid of all the nitrite ions that could not be converted from the lack of water volume. <Mmm, but... these are easily "replaced"...> Since nitrate had show up in such high amounts would that not show the second bacteria (after Tim Hovanec research I'm not sure what to label it) was present? <Should, yes> I agree 100% water change or any water change is the worst advice normally for a cycling a tank. From what I have seen and read a high level of nitrite and nitrate would be the only case for it. Is this the right thought? <IMO/E, yes> What have you seen to correct this? <Sequential large (25 percent or so) water changes are often best> Thank you again for your time. I forgot to give you congrats on Aquarist of the year! My friend Eric R. always talked about getting a chance to dive with you. Until his last dive at 240 ft. Russell <Ahh! Bob Fenner> Re: Q. for Finner  12/13/05 Why do you think the 25% or larger water change works? Thanks again Russell <... please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/water.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner> ... Ongoing Rambling re Mar. Cycling  12/16/05 A frozen cycle is when you are starting a new tank and get stuck with high nitrite and high nitrate. <Oh...> Even waiting (over 2 months) does not seem to bring the levels down. I must not have made this clear before. I thought we had been talking about it the whole time. I understand you have many questions asked everyday and I do tend to ramble with so many questions. <Am not quite "with it", having just returned from a long trip and traveling. Ten hour days trying to catch up are adding to my lack of competent ongoing comprehension> Here is a quick recap. "I also thought that she was in a cycle freeze just like a former aquarist had problems that came up in Julian Sprung's Reef notes Volume 1 page 58. I had seen this once before when an aquarist put 7 damsels in a 35 hex with a Millennium 1000 filter and fed like there was no tomorrow. They went 2 months with high nitrite and high nitrate. After doing 100% water change and cleaning the gravel it broke through with the cycle. Then placed 3 damsels in 3 days later and cut back the feeding. After that everything went like clock work. Have you ever heard or seen this before?" >>>><Yes> Thanks Russell <There are a few sets of circumstances that will "freeze" the establishment of bio-geo-nutrient cycling in a captive aquatic system... One is simple poisoning by too much chemical substrate (ammonia, nitrite...). Bob Fenner> Overcoming a lock in the establishment of cycling  12/17/05 There are a few sets of circumstances that will "freeze" the establishment of bio-geo-nutrient cycling in a captive aquatic system... One is simple poisoning by too much chemical substrate (ammonia, nitrite...). Bob Fenner> What have you found to help break this frozen cycle? Your persistent aquarist Russell <Large serial water changes as mentioned, use of chemical filtrants, addition of new cured live rock and sand, altering water chemistry back toward the "middle", massive addition of bacteria cultures. Gotcha. Thank you again for all your help. I don't see how you have time to get to everyone. Russell <I key quickly. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Tank cycled   12/28/05
Hi guys. I just did a Nitrite test and it amazingly it showed 0 mg/l. It is hard to believe because I have only started the tank a little over week ago. Could this be true?
<Yes>
My only answer would be the dilution/pollution theory. The tank is a 175 gal. with a 5" sugar size aragonite (sand was put in at the same time) with 185lbs of live rocks. Sump is  60 gal. with a Remora  and a Berlin skimmers that have been producing copiously. I have an upstream 40 gal. refugium (bare bottom) with a day old addition of Chaeto
<With cheese that goes crunch? Oh, likely Chaeto>
run with a reverse daylight regime. The other refugium, 50gal. (downstream)
houses 4-5" of coarser reef floor aragonite and live rocks. This will harbor pods and other cryptic life that will grow.
<Sounds good>
Since I don't want to rush into things, I want to play the patience game,
<A good one>
like 3-6 months before adding any corals. I would like the pods in all the tanks to flourish to give the coral and fish a head start. I was wondering when I should start seeing  pods multiplying?
<Look closely... they're there>
At this time I am not seeing any or maybe the are too small for the naked eye. Are there any in my tanks or they just all died in the transport and transfer?
<Some are undoubtedly there... will multiply as your system changes, matures>
Should I add a culture of them from IPSF?
<Could if you wanted to>
Can I add an invertebrate Algae pack and detritivore kits at this time.
<Yes>
How much do I need. While I wait for things to sprout out of the live rocks do I need to feed all the tanks in any way?
<Some folks advise this... I for one>
Also I've been using filter socks in the sump while cycling and I was wondering if I still need them.
<I would continue to use these...>
Without them I think it will give detritivores something to munch on.
<Plenty there otherwise, nonetheless. Bob Fenner>

Yeah I know... instant SW cycling  01-03-05
I got my wife a 75 gallon aquarium for Christmas (I'm new to this stuff).
<Great present.>
Read about the cycling process and stuff on the net.
<Good start.>
I purchased the recommended amount of reef sand that said no waiting, only have about 25 lbs of live rock so far put in a couple damsels to help the cycling along, put in a yellow tang and a purple lobster( free with the setup).
<Wow, you should immediately find a new fish store as that is the most irresponsible thing I have heard a local fish store sell and suggest in a long time. You would be wise to immediately return the fish and the invert. There is no such thing as an "instant" cycle and fish should never suffer through the ammonia spikes involved with a cycle.>
Problem is I read somewhere I could start putting in the cleaners like crabs, and shrimp, snails, etc after only 1 week, ordered them along with a couple starfish, I can handle losing some of the others
<That is a very poor way to look at the life of your pets. Sure they are less attractive and cost less than a starfish, but you ripped them from the ocean and should do your best to care for them.>
but really don't want to lose anything especially the star fish, well the stuff that said no waiting is causing me concern cause the livestock will be here tomorrow and my tank is still cycling, I do water quality tests daily while its getting started and I'm getting fluctuations,
<That is a cycle fighting to happen.>
all my toxins are right now at the highest I've seen them and not sure if they won't keep rising.
<They will, until they peak and the cycle happens. Expect 4-6 weeks.>
I now realize patients would have been the smartest thing
<You are correct.>
but I'm down to do whatever to make it through this successfully any help would be great, have a separate tank with low levels but its only 10 gallons of just saltwater, never cycled either just a water change tank with heater and simple filter. I have about 75, 1 per gallon, critters coming.
<You should never force that large of a bioload in an established tank, let alone an uncycled tank.>
My parameters are as follows, ammonia (1 ppm), NO2 (.75 ppm), NO3 (5-10 ppm), ALK (2.7milli eq/liter), and a pH of 7.8(wish it was higher but don't want to raise toxic ammonia), 1.023 Sal, with a temp of 77. Understand if ya laugh at me but please help. Have BioZyme, StressZyme, StressCoat, AmQuel. Trying not to use it cause I don't want to screw up anything. Have added portions of each within instruction reason.
<You are in a situation that too many individuals find themselves in. Your best bet is to find a friend or to hold your items until your tank is ready. Even better call the company that is shipping them and have them hold your order. As you already know your tank is going through a cycle and that will kill your new pets. You will want to get all parameters up to par before adding anything to your tank. Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrites need to be ZERO. Your pH needs to be between 8.3-8.4 with as little fluctuation as possible. If you are using a quality salt your water parameters should level off well once the salinity is correct. Your salinity needs to be 1.025-1.026. Your temp should be between 78 and 80 degrees with no fluctuation. Again, you need to take your time and let your tank stabilize. Only failure happens quickly in this hobby. Use the next 6 weeks while your tank cycles to read up on the proper care for a reef aquarium and it's inhabitants. Travis>
 

Ammonia spike from live rock rearrangement?   2/14/06
Dear WWM Crew,
<Jill>
I am most grateful for your web site. I am very new (2.5 months) at maintaining a saltwater tank. I have been able to find answers to almost all of my questions on your site along with  Robert Fenner's book and have not had any major problems  until now.
<Let's see if we can help you fix...>
My 55 gallon hex tank was set up on Dec. 6th. with live rock, live sand,  and 4 striped damsels. I have a trickle filter with sump/bioballs. underneath.  The tank cycled by mid January.  My current stock is 5 Chromis, 2 clowns, one brittle star, one red serpent star, one coral banded shrimp and a dozen hermit crabs,
(I returned the damsels to LFS as they were very aggressive).
All of my "numbers" until today have been good.  S. G. 1.024, ammonia, nitrates zero, pH 8.0 - 8.23. Tank temperature maintained at 79 degrees.
4 days ago, I rearranged my live rock, during the process, I shook the rock so the crabs would fall off. A huge amount of debris from the rocks clouded the water. I am embarrassed to say I had not turned off the pump while doing this. I turned off the pump and did my usual weekly 10% water change.  Water cleared fairly well and things seemed ok. The next morning  the return water jets were very slow.
I cleaned the filter on the pump, it was full of debris. It solved the problem: water return was fine. Yesterday I did another !0% water change.  
<Good>
This morning I had a small increase in ammonia, not quite to 0.5.  Went to LFS  and asked my contact there, who has seemed fairly knowledgeable,  if the debris would have "damaged" the good bacteria on the bioballs.
<Assuredly yes>
He said no, that the debris wouldn't hurt anything, and  sold me Kent ammonia Detox.
<I would not use this>
By the time I returned home in one hour,  the ammonia was in the danger zone on the test strip. I added the ammonia Detox slowly per instructions on the bottle, to the sump until the strip showed a bare trace.
My question:  would the debris and resultant clogging of the water jets have upset the balance and the tank is recycling?
<Yes... a lack of flow, oxygen, the release of organics...>
I am not sure what to do next and would greatly appreciate any advice. Fish seem fine, active, and eating well.
<Just "keep on keeping on" really... these sorts of issues, problems are "self-regulating" for the most part. Happily you have good discipline in setting up, stocking, maintaining... All will be fine>
Thank  you very much for taking the time to read this lengthy email. Again, I think your site is one of the best I have seen and appreciate your efforts.
Sincerely,
Jill Phillips
<Certainly welcome. Bob Fenner>

Wacky SW tank cycling 1/8/05
Guys I need help.
<join the club, bubba... I still suck my thumb. Oh, wait... you meant help with your aquarium! My bad... please continue...>
I have my tank trying to cycle. I can't seem to get the ammonia up and nitrite down to actually start the process. Is it safe to add pure ammonia to help give the cycle a boost?
<very dangerous with livestock in the tank when you are metering the dose with mere hobby grade test kits. A pot shot at best. Not recommended mate>
I have 5 damsel fish and a few Hermit crabs. I placed them in when my nitrate, nitrite and ammonia was near 0, now nitrites are up to the middle of the test card and ammonia will still not register.
<hmmm... several possibilities here:
1) did you use a water conditioner that says it neutralizes chloramine? If so, it interferes with some Ammonia test kit readings (Nessler's reagent) I have very hard water here in the mountains. I have tested with the kit first but with no readings.
2) it is possible that your live rock was somewhat cured and went through little to no ammonia spike. Poss. Is there a way to test for the bacteria?
3) different bacteria have established and displaced the more desirable/typical nitrifiers. Nitrite converters may have been displaced by something else... even harmless but not helpful bacteria. What do I do if this is the case?
4) your tests kits are inaccurate (easy enough to check against the LFS or another hobbyists kits. Use a different brand/reagent kit to be sure.>
Everything I have read is not really happening here. I have live Fiji rock, was not cultured, live sand and water from a well in the mountains. Hope this will help answer my question.
<do chew on the above starting with confirming the quality of your test kits and also test your raw, untreated freshwater source. A helpful and inexpensive solution is the addition of a sponge filter (I really like Hydrosponge brand). This can cycle a tank fast and be left hidden in the display for future use in your quarantine tank when needed. And you must know that for marine aquaria... you need(!) to quarantine ALL new livestock without exception, my friend. It is critical for long term success (all plants, algae, fishes, corals, snails, rock, everything wet!). Anthony>
What exactly is a Hydrosponge? Well I guess I can look up online. I just want to make sure the tank is doing what it is supposed to as not to kill anything.

Could it be cycled already?
Greetings, wonderful fish gang!
<Salutations fellow aquarist!>
I'm setting up a 75 FOWLR aquarium.  I got it December 10th, filled it with RO water,
<And synthetic salt I take it>
added about 80 pounds of "live" sand, (the kind that comes in an air-tight bag,) 100 pounds of sugar sized CaribSea aragonite, and about 25 pounds of liverock from a 4 and a half year old established tank.  I never saw a spike in ammonia or nitrites.
<You might not>
About 10 days afterwards, I took my 2 year old Eheim 2026 loaded with all the Eheim recommended media from the established tank and placed it in the new tank.  Still no spike.  (The established tank now has its own brand-new 2026.) Nitrates also measured at 0.  There is no skimmer, as I'm still waiting on the new D&D Terminators to be built.  (That sumpless kit looks COOL.  Wow.)
<A good route to go>
5 days ago, I added 45 pounds of "Premium Fiji" live rock from Drs Foster and Smith, and another 30 from the LFS.  The ammonia and nitrites immediately spiked to .5ppm and 1.0ppm respectively, and took 3 days for them to both go
down to 0.
<Quick!>
Today I measured nitrates at ~15ppm.
So, my question is, has the tank cycled this quickly?
<Seems so>
I have no shortage of patience; could I do any harm waiting a few weeks to make sure?  Will the bacteria be able to sustain itself in the meantime?
<Better to indeed wait... as a general rule with aquariums I would state, "When in doubt, wait">
Is there any way that I can definitively verify that the tank has indeed cycled, like drop in a cocktail shrimp and see how quickly the resulting ammonia and nitrite spikes are taken care of?
<Yes, you could do this... better with a sub-sample and some exogenous (liquid, "cleaner") ammonia of low, but measurable concentration...>
Would a water change be called for to bring the nitrates down, and if so, how large of one?
Thanks!
- Chad
<Just wait... the nitrates should rise, then drop without further addition of nitrogenous/biological material. In your "spare" time, take a read re biological filtration, nitrates... on the marine root web of www.WetWebMedia.com
Bob Fenner>

Confused about.. S/W Question
Hi Jeff here with a quick question for whoever has the time to answer.
<Hey, Jeff. Mike G here>
I have a 55 gal salt tank 6wks old approx 40 lbs of live rock 1 Sebae clown, 1 peppermint shrimp, and some crabs and snails. All was well levels all zero except Ammonia at .25ppm, so we did a 20 to 30% water change two days ago salinity dropped to 1.018 (alarm Bells were screaming at me) so I mixed more water and have brought it up to 1.020. I ran the tests and came up with the following, SG 1.020, PH 7.8, Nitrite .25ppm, Nitrate 5ppm, Ammonia .5ppm. This seems very bad to me did I just cause my tank to re-cycle if not what is going on, and what can I do.
<I don't think "re-cycle" is the best term to use, as it appears that your tank never fully cycled in the first place. From your email, I am inferring that you have a somewhat fuzzy understanding of the Nitrogen Cycle, so I will do my best to explain it to you. Ammonia is a compound toxic to marine life, and is also produced by marine life through bodily functions, such as respiration and the passing of feces. Decaying organic matter also produces Ammonia. Certain beneficial bacteria consume Ammonia and convert it to Nitrites in the process. When a tank is first set up, there are no substantial colonies of the said bacteria, so the Ammonia level quickly rises. As time goes by, these bacteria will build their populations up to colonies large enough to effectively convert all Ammonia to Nitrite on an as-produced basis. Nitrite, though much less toxic than Ammonia, is quite a deadly compound itself, and approximately 1ppm of Ammonia would convert to somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5ppm Nitrite, so you could imagine it builds up rather quickly. The Nitrite is converted to Nitrate in much the same way as Ammonia into Nitrite, except a different species of bacteria is responsible for the said conversion. Nitrate is nowhere near as toxic as Ammonia, and pales in comparison to Nitrite. However, around 2.5ppm of Nitrite will convert to approximately 6ppm of Nitrate. So, you can see, as the cycle is going on, a lot of Nitrate is produced. Nitrate is the "end product" of the conversions, and there is no aerobic species of bacteria that consumes it. However, things like plant life, macroalgae, sand beds, and water changes will all help absorb Nitrates, emphasis being placed upon water changes. What I am getting at is that, if your Ammonia was originally at .25ppm and Nitrites and Nitrates at 0ppm, than the Ammonia-converting bacteria were still building up a significant population. Later on, you say that your Nitrites and Nitrates increased, which is typical of the Nitrogen cycle. Your tank seems a bit heavily populated for so early in the cycle, so I would advise you to just wait out the cycle. However, if any of your livestock seems to be reacting adversely, action should be taken accordingly. Hope this helps, and good luck>
Thank you for you time I know you get questions from dummies like me all the time, Jeff
<The only dumb question is the one you fail to ask. :)>

Ammonia...
Hi Crew,
<Mario>
I have had my new system running since Jan. 16, 2005.
<Just a few weeks back>
I have been testing the water for the past week and the ammonia is at .25 to .50, the nitrite is at zero and the nitrate at 0 to 5.  Because the ammonia is above zero I would do a 25% water change each time.
<Mmmm, I would wait on water changes... till the ammonia, nitrite are past 1.0 ppm... hopefully you don't have livestock present>
My question is should I continue to change the water at these levels or let the cycle process continue?
<Uhh, please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm and the linked files above>
If I do not continue to change the water will the ammonia over time go down to zero and then the nitrite will begin to rise?
<See the above>
If this will be the case (ammonia = 0 & nitrite > 0), only then should I start doing the 25% water changes again, until the nitrite drops to zero? 
<See the above>
Is siphoning the waste from the bottom during each water change a good idea, will it slow down the cycle proceed?
<See the...>
Do you recommend I only siphon the waste when the tank is cycled or during each water change?
<See...>
Your insight on what I should do next is greatly appreciated.  Thanks, Mario D.
<Your diligence in studying is likewise thanked. Bob Fenner>

- Tank Move and Cycling -
Hi Guys-
Unfortunately, I had to move my tank to a new location in the house due to poor initial planning on my part. 
<Happens.> 
Since I was breaking down the tank anyway, I thought that it would be a good time to get the tank drilled and add the Oceansmotion 4-way that I've always wanted, but it added quite a bit of time to the move, i.e. 5 days instead of probably 1. My question is whether it is typical to have a new Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate cycle after the move? 
<It's not atypical - really depends on how much original water you were able to use... how much of the biological life was lost during the move, etc.> 
The tank has been up for 2 days and my parameters were:
Day 1: (24 hours after move)
NO2: 0.025
NO3: 1.00
NH3: 0.3-0.6 (in-between colors on test kit). The kit is a bit dodgy, i.e. Hagen, and bought a JBL for future tests.  Added Seachem Prime (max amount) to try and detoxify the nitrite as suggested by LFS
Day 2:
NO2: 0.1
NO3: 2.00
NH3: 0.25-0.5
Did 20% water change.
Waiting to see what the parameters are today!  I sent in a previous question prior to the move about keeping the live rock wet during the process. You suggested to keep wet at all times and if left for even a period of an hour out of water, the decaying process will have begun. 
<True.> 
Up until the aquascape phase, I did continually keep the rock submerged with a heater, circulation pump, and light. However during the aquascape, it took, a bit longer than planned due to gluing, tying, etc... rock together for quite amazing formations, i.e. over 24hrs in the end!!! My LFS, who graciously helped me with the move and redesign, said that leaving the rock exposed is not such an issue as you guys had suggested since our live rock here in NZ isn't quite the same as in the US. 
<Huh... don't why it would be "different" in that way - it may hail from a different place, with slightly different life forms, but the basic functions of it would be the same.> 
That is, all our rock comes in to the country and must remain dry for 3 weeks. Therefore, we basically always start out with dead rock, cure it and then dump it in our tanks. However, the rock that I was using had been in my tank for well over a year and exposed to rock that comes in with corals, etc... and thus, was quite live in terms of bacteria, little critters, etc... I think that this time of the rock being dry substantially added to the spike that I am experiencing now, but my LFS says that this is totally normal in every move (which I think is probably due to the fact that they are not strict about keeping rock wet as much as possible). 
<I agree with you, not your LFS.> 
Not only that, but they said that it is most likely going to be worse in my case since we used about 30KG less rock with the new aquascape and had to completely rinse the sand due to the long timeframe of the move. 
<Huh... well, you should expect an ammonia spike, but expect it will resolve itself quickly - within a week or two.>
I have had to move the tank on two other occasions (in which I made sure to keep everything wet) and had no new cycle. Another difference from the previous moves to this one is that I was able to use much more water from the previous tank, i.e. approximately 75% instead of only 20% as in this case. 
<Patience... this will all work out in the end. Try to hold off on the water changes for a little while so the cycle can complete.>
Thanks for your help, Steve
<Cheers, J -- >

- Tank Move and Cycling, Follow-up -
Thanks J.
<My pleasure.>
I know it all will be fine in the end, and patience is certainly a virtue in this hobby. However, I just wanted to know how much of a factor leaving the rock out of the water played on this outcome since this was the real bone of contention during the move. 
<Well... that and rinsing all your sand, which most certainly HAD been live before that. But... in the case of your live rock... the fact that it was dry and dead once doesn't mean that once it is live, that leaving it out in the air will somehow make it different from other live rock. Your assertion that the rock being dry for even an hour is going to losing some of the life living in it is a correct one.> 
Being a LFS owner, I am sure that he will give this advice to others and if it was in fact a major contributing factor, then I want to let him know to take better precautions with the rock, sand, etc... in the future. 
<You can tell him if you want, and for the record I do think he is mistaken in his opinion, but... it's been my experience that many folks don't take well to having their long fought for opinions second guessed by "some guy on the Internet." If he gives this advice to your friends, straighten them out directly - even show them our emails. But as for trying to straighten this guy out... well, it's your call. I've been spending the last month trying to help a friend/store owner realize that Kick-Ich is worthless and will lose him customers... people just get things set in their heads and won't let go.>
Thanks again for everything. Your (as well as the whole crew's) advice has been invaluable in my progression in this hobby. Cheers, Steve
<Cheers, J -- >

Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate Oh My!
Hi all,
<Howdy>
Great Website, I really appreciate the vast database of information you have available here.
<Welcome>
After many years of great success keeping freshwater critters I have recently migrated to the saltwater side. I enjoy Scuba and after a couple of years diving in the Atlantic on vacations, I wanted to try bringing some of that beauty into my home. I had an empty 29 gal tank sitting around and my son said, "hey dad, will you set that up in my room"? I said sure, what kind of fish do you want? Being 8 years old and loving the Great Barrier Reef display at the Zoo, guess what he said? Yep, I want a Nemo!
<Happens>
After reading a lot of your setup FAQ's I went to the LFS and got all the stuff and setup a 29 gal salt tank. Its been up for 4 months now and we only lost one Chromis during the cycle and I think he was weak to begin with. Since we used lots of live rock before adding the fish, we never saw an Ammonia spike and the tank is doing great. 
Well then I got cocky! I thought, this is easy, I'll convert my 55 gal African tank over to salt. So I sold all the fish, dumped the UG filters, and bought a Wet/Dry with Skimmer. Setup the tank with freshwater first and ran everything for a week with no substrate in the tank just to make sure it was all functioning properly, so far so good. I added the salt and 60# of reef sand (40# regular sand, 20# aragonite w/ bacteria). Here is where it all starts to go wacko. Thinking that, since I added all those bacteria, I should be able to add a couple small damsels during the cycle. One week
into the setup my ammonia went up over 1.2.
<Mmmm, you didn't move some of the water, substrate from the 29?>
So, going the "dilution is the solution to pollution route", I did a 20% water change and went out and bought a Nitrite, and Nitrate test kit. 3 days later the Ammonia was again up over 1.2 and Nitrite was in the danger zone as well, with some Nitrate.  I did another 20% water change and just retested tonight and it looks like a never ending battle. The fish seem fine, they don't seem to care.
<Thus far...>
I know that since I'm producing both Nitrite and Nitrate that the cycle is taking place, but I expected the ammonia to start falling and it hasn't.  Should I continue to do water changes or quit messing with it and let it finish cycling?
<Mmm, stop feeding (if you are) and let time go by... w/o water changes, sans livestock in the 55 (move all to the Nemo tank>
Hind sight, I should have bought LR but funds are growing thin so I tried to get away with the Aragonite instead. I expected the 55 gal tank to be easier than the 29 but since I didn't use LR I've got a mess on my hands.  What to do?
<Move the Damsels, switch some of the water, gravel twixt the two tanks... patience. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate Oh My! And Dura back in biz
Thanks for the quick response. Moved the damsels last night, they seem to be ok with their new tank mates. Nobody seems to be arguing anyway.
<Okay>
I think that I will forego the substrate exchange between the tanks. The 29 has crushed coral and I've used reef sand in the 55. They won't look very good mixed. I could get a mesh bag and use it inside the Wet/Dry with some of the crush coral, couldn't I? Before my first e-mail, I did take one of the filter pads out of the power filter on the established tank and put it in with the filter pad on the wet/dry. I don't know how much help that was.
<Should>
Does the AragAlive reef sand fall under the same category as most other products that claim to cycle the tank faster, or is there really a benefit to using it? 
<Not much>
I thought that the bacteria needed a bio-load to keep it alive; otherwise I never would have added the fish so soon.
<Bingo>
On another topic, I read the WWM article about lighting that discusses the use of a product called Vita-Lite by Duro-Test. I would like to try these, but the company went out of business for a while and the bulbs are not available at retail stores. I've called the manufacturer, Duro-Test and they have a min order of $85.00. Ouch. I found a website http://www.naturallighting.com/ that sells them...
<Ah! Glad to find the co. is back>
... but I'm not sure that I can get enough wattage over a 55 gal tank to do as well as compact fluorescents, or maybe the newer T5 bulbs. The 55 is deep enough that I'm concerned standard fluorescents are not going to be enough, full spectrum or not. Do you have any thoughts on this subject?  
Again, great site, and nice chatting with you
Mark
<If you want/need more intense lighting, I would go with CF's, T-8's, T-5's... in low to higher order. Bob Fenner>

Ammonia... killing off one's biofilter
Mr. Fenner, Thanks for all your help in the past.
<Welcome>
I have been battling ammonia the past couple weeks, and I lost a lot of fish. 
<Mmm... what are fishes doing in such water?>
I seem to have gotten it under control today. I have had my tank setup for about 6 months. I suddenly got a tremendous (off the scale) ammonia spike that I could do nothing to fix immediately. 
<From?>
I don't understand. I'm thinking I might have somehow caused new tank syndrome. I did replace my CPR BakPak skimmer with an ETSS reef devil, but the downward spiral started a couple days before that. I did keep my biomedia from the old skimmer and put it in a ventilated container and floated it in my sump. I don't know if that would do any good anyway.
<Should have>
Somehow, I think I killed off all the beneficial bacteria.
<I agree... or overwhelmed the system with proteinaceous material... did someone toss in a bunch of food... might an animal have died and you not caught it?>
I was reading all the posts and I think it was from excessive vacuuming of the DSB. it was so dirty though. I wanted your opinion on this observation: Immediately after 2 ammonia spikes settled down, the deep sand bed was covered in a rusty brown substance. That's what I vacuumed away. Is there any correlation between this "stuff" and the ammonia level going back to zero? 
<Yes... the brown stuff are likely diatoms, other algae... that need the ammonia to be gone, nitrate (product) to flourish>
It's just odd that the sand is white, and my ammonia is through the roof, and then finally the ammonia is gone, and instantly the sand is brown. Well, I still have 1 dogface puffer and 1 striped damsel left, and I don't want to go vacuuming if its gonna finish them off too. I'm really surprised they made it. My ammonia scale only goes to 2, and it was definitely way over that!
<Yikes>
Also, what do you think about Chemi-clean?  It's supposed "removes disease causing red Cyano bacteria, oxidizes trapped organic sludge and sediment. Chemi Clean also clarifies aquarium water to crystal clear and promotes ideal enzyme balance." 
<... not a good idea... Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/maralgcidefaqs.htm>
I started having the troubles when I added this in conjunction with B-ionic Calcium Buffer, and Ruby Reef Kick Ich.
<Oooohhhh... This is the source of your trouble... you actually killed off your nitrifiers...>
I think maybe it all had some unknown effect.
<Yes, for sure>
I read something on your site about one of these effecting pH, which might affect ammonia? Thanks for your time, I read your posts daily.
B. Robinson
<The "Clean" product... kills microbes... including your beneficial bacteria... the "kick" product does nothing (but flavor food), the B-ionic is a fine product (for pH, alkalinity). More study, less chemicals my friend. Bob Fenner> 

Nitrogen Cycle Fails to Start - 9 Mar 2005
I found your e-mail on Wet Web Media, and was trying to find an answer on early cycling of my marine tank (I also have your book). 
<Okay>
My set up is 210 litre tank (60 x 60 x 60 cm), with synthetic salt mix (tab water pre-treated with conditioner to neutralize chlorine and chloramines).
<I see>
3 cm of crushed marble substrate (no buffering there, looks nice), 2 Via Aqua Canister filters, 6.5 litre capacity each, 1000 litres/hour circulation. One has only bioballs, the other filter wool, ceramic noodles, and outflow inline with a Merlin fluidized bed filter.  Tunze TurBelle internal circulation pump (6000 litres an hour), Deltec MCE 600 Protein Skimmer (rated for 450 - 700 litres), Jager 200 watt heater.
<So far...>
I have made some rock from white cement + crushed marble and coral sand (22 kg) and that will need to soak in water for at least 6 weeks to remove the pH lime effect.
<Good>
Later when it is safe to put them in the tank, I wanted to get a small live rock to sit on the cement rocks to make it live over time. Macroalgae does not fall from the sky (micro does). The tank set up would then have redundancies in filtration (but that may not be a bad thing).
<Well stated>
For now I wanted to cycle without fish. The Fluidized Bed Filter came with a packet of ammonia crystals, and I also added three cocktail shrimp (2 cm long). The water smelled bad in 48 hours, and removed the shrimp bits. I have added two "bottles," of StressZyme over the last three weeks, water temperature 25 degrees C.
<Okay>
My present external system for now should be a real nitrite >> nitrate farm.
<Perhaps... in a while>
Testing after three weeks, I have nothing to show for it. Ammonia levels are 8 ppm, nitrite zero, nitrate zero, pH 8.2 I have a sterile tank, which is lethal to all marine life.
<Yes... and the ammonia... is actually way too high... principally at fault here for forestalling cycling>
I have read the bacteria will grow quicker with a higher temp, so I have set it to 30 degrees today (can turn in it down later).  Bacteria are supposed to just fall from the sky anyway (in time).
<Yes>
Is this just a mater of more time, and wait, or is the high ammonia level acting as a disinfectant?
<Ahhh! Bingo! As they say in the States>
Do you have any suggestions?
All the Best from New Zealand.
Mike Lomb
<Yes my friend. Do execute a good sized water change (perhaps 3/4) or add a bit of mitigating filter media, conditioner to render the ammonia concentration less than 2.0 ppm... and try to keep it there... or lower... Otherwise... it is "a matter of time"... or something that can be sped up... Have you read this? http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm re Establishment of nitrification in marine systems? It might give you solace to review others (the linked Related FAQs above) experiences... It reads as if you "Know what you're doing" and have a nice set-up here... all that is really needed is a bit more time... and possibly diluting the ammonia. Bob Fenner> 

Strange cycling question/ confusion
Hi,
<Hello there>
Sorry to bother you with a strange question,
<I like strange questions>
...but I am looking for a bit of advice, I have a 20L tank that I am currently cycling (fishless) or trying to. I have 18 Lbs. of live rock, originally I placed the rock in the aquarium but was a pain to clean in there with the die off, so I moved to a lg Rubbermaid container until ammonia & nitrites (approx. 2 1/2 weeks) both read zero, then added to tank. The rock has been in the tank now for a little over a week, there are some new types of algae stalks sprouting out of the rock & some diatoms (which is normal w/ new tank), the coralline algae looks to be growing too. I have read that some tanks sort of instantly cycle...
<Yes... mostly larger volumes>
...my question is: The highest the ammonia had ever reached was .50 & nitrites were .10, and only for a day (actually it was the 2nd day after the rock was added) then they both went to zero, I tried adding some fish food to maybe speed up the ammonia spike & it only went up to .25 then back down. Can you point any advice my way?
<Mmm, nope... You're doing fine... this system is likely "semi" cycled... better to wait a few weeks before starting your initial livestocking>
By the way the site & the books are the best! They have gotten me through confusion with my 150, the LFS around here really don't know much or give you half a** advice.
<Mmm, perhaps they will read, learn as well... through your suggestions. Bob Fenner> 

Recycle 7/11/05
We have a 72 gallon saltwater tank containing live rock with coral and several fish until today.  Yesterday we went from a bio-wheel filter to a canister filter and now all of our fish but two are dead.  
<Well, I think I know what happened. The Bio-Wheel played host to the majority of beneficial bacteria in your aquarium. When you removed it, you removed all of them, then you added a sterile canister filter. No more bacteria resulted in nothing to metabolize Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. This caused a spike, and killed your fish.>
Are there any steps can we take to save our last two a clown fish and cardinal fish, they are not looking so good.  We do not have a quarantine tank. We tested our water and had the fish store test our water (everything testing acceptable) right before the change and now everything is out of whack.  Any help would be very appreciated.
<Well, I would advise you either:
a) Ask your local fish store to hold your two fish for you while you re-cycle your tank, as you will have to. (Pretend it is a brand new aquarium, just set up).
b) Purchase a live bacteria product to re-seed your tank. Bio-Spira is high on my list of favorite aquarium products, and would serve your cause wonderfully. Put it on one of the filter cartridges in your canister filter so that water passing through the filter will be "treated" by the bacteria. I have found that, when working with Bio-Spira, it is always best to buy a size 2-3 times larger than they recommend, as, when I go with their recommended dosage, it never works out. I suppose a great deal of the bacteria perish when in the tank or were already dead in the pouch.>
Thank you,
Brandie Emmett
<Best of luck! Mike G>