Re: ich or not? Ongoing Tetraodont hlth.  2/28/07
Hi Bob,
Okay....Now there seem to be more salt-grain-like spots cropping up, several on his tail (small) and a cluster of tiny ones on his anal fin.......BIG QUESTION....if the one on his pectoral fin that has been there (and the same size) for the past month, has not moved or changed in size does that conclude, without a doubt, that it is NOT ich?
<Nope>
I have read about the life cycle of the little critters and should it have not dropped off and into the substrate and becomes an encapsulated cyst called a tomonts by now if it were ich?.
<Yep>
I have also read that they come and go (the spots, that is).  So since the very first one I saw four weeks ago is still there PLUS new smaller ones, what the heck do you think it is?
<Perhaps... just reaction/mucus... to?>
I want to catch it before it gets out of control, but without knowing what "it" is I remain stymied (do ya blame me?)  ....If this is, by chance, "ich" I don't want the situation to end in me having to do the fallow tank routine...... But I did your recommended reading and I will "paste" the following instruction from Anthony on your site..........<you are doing fine... FW dips daily of 5-10 minutes each for 5-7 times in next week may effect cure without any meds. A bare-bottomed QT tank would be best though>......but like I said, the spots that show up are NOT going away.  They are also not a bright white as I mentioned before.  I also read that saltwater ich likes higher degrees of salinity, which by coincidence I have been struggling with since adding a metal halide light and have had increased evaporation.  So was it a coincidence that these extra tiny new salt-grain type spots show up during this period of higher salinity?
<More likely stress-related in general, due to the bright illumination>
I am thinking about Anthony's advice for the QT and wondering why you say "no" so definitively.  Is a ten gallon tank too small for a 3 1/2 inch Puffer.
<Is risky... due to metabolic and psychological factors>
  But should I risk the ich?
<If your system had/has Cryptocaryon, you would know about by now>
I have to go away for a few days and don't know how to leave him; where he is or in the QT.  HELP!  I am in such a quandary.  I have read and read and have found nothing that seems remotely explainable (regarding symptoms described) other than the dreaded "ich".
Thanks.
SORRY THIS IS SO LONG!
Lisa
<There are a number of "things" in the way of parasites that appear as "spots", "dots" in such fishes... as well as "pimples" from stress, mechanical injury, interaction with tankmates... W/o microscopic examination there is only speculation... I would not act overtly given the information presented. Bolstering metabolism via supplemented foods is about all I would do presently. Bob Fenner>

*Puffer w/ cloudy eye - 02/09/2007
Hello,
<Hi.>
I have 22" Stars and Stripes puffer with cloudy eyes.   He is in a 350 gallon fish only tank.  With him is a 7 inch sailfin tang, 3 inch coral beauty, 5 inch bowtie damsel and 3 yellow fin damsel.  The pH is 8.3,  ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 and the nitrate is 30 ppm.  For approx 2 years i had trouble keeping the nitrate level under 120ppm.  I added a refugium 4 months ago and now the nitrate level are under control.  There is 2 sources of water movement (1st) Quiet One 6000 return pump from the sump (2nd) Dolphin amp master 3000 on close loop system which is currently not working for the past 3 weeks, due to blown seal.  I got the puffer 3.5 years ago when he was on 6 inches long.  His diet started off with San Francisco Bay frozen krill and for the past couple of years he has been eating frozen cocktail shrimp.  It seems that he has lost his eye sight in the cloudier of the two eyes.  What can I due to help the cloudiness in his eyes?
<Mmm..."cloudy" and "eye" usually point to something environmental.  My guess is that he is suffering from the long-term stress of high nutrient levels. How often do you change the water? What do you feed? This is also a large animal, what is the footprint of the tank? Read WWM re: environmental disease. Adam J.>

Re: Puffer with cloudy eye   2/11/07
Thanks for your input, the answers the questions that you posed are as follows:
the water is change every 3-4 weeks
<Why don't you try at least 10% every two weeks for a while.>
we are feeding him frozen cocktail shrimp
<Mmm...depending on the brand these are at times pre-cooked, I would prefer raw (freezing is okay but uncooked) market fish/clams...and leaving the shell on the bivalves would be a good idea as well.>
and the foot print is 48" x 72"
<So size is not a problem.>
one other that I have notice is that he swim close to the edge of the tank and his eye are rubbing along the tank.  Could that also be contributing to
the cloudy ness of his eyes?
<No likely just a side effect of diminished sight.>
thank for your input.
<Of course, AJ.>

Arothron with Cloudy Eyes  1/23/07
Hey Crew,
<Hi Sam, Pufferpunk here>
How's it going?
<Things are great here, in sunny, snowy Chicago!>
Things in my aquarium have been going pretty well for the past 6 months or so. However, I now have an issue in which I need your help. I have an 120 gallon tank with the Yellow Arothron,
<Arothron>
a Picasso trigger, a Miniatus grouper and a Snowflake eel. They've all been healthy for a while. The other day, I woke up and noticed that one of the puffer's eyes looked like a white, cloudy substance was completely covering his eye. It's thick and looks almost like wax on his eye. Perfectly around his left eye. I have my tank maintained by a aquarium service. I checked my pH which I never do because I presumed it's monitored every week by the maintenance people. The pH was extremely low. I immediately added pH buffer and got it back to normal level again.
<Should have done a water change 1st.  Many pH problems are caused by a build-up of wastes in the tank, causing it to become more acidic.>
I was quite upset, because I've had this fish for a while.  It was expensive and obviously it may be that my the maintenance personal don't know what they are doing.
<That could be.  What is their water change schedule?>
Anyhow, I have a 60 WATT UV light in operation. It's a fish only. I was curious to know whether you think the low pH perhaps enabled my puffer to get cloudy eye and if regulation pH will help it get better, since he hasn't had a problem in the 6 months I've owned him. Will I have to medicate before it gets too late?
<Cloudy eye is generally a sign of poor water conditions.  I suggest a 25% water change on the tank.  Test for ammonia, nitrite, & nitrates, before you do this.  There should be no trace of ammonia or nitrite (extremely toxic) & nitrates should be kept below 20--below 10 would be best.  Continue with daily water changes, until water parameters are good.  The eye may clear up on it's own then.  Also, please use a capital "I" when using as a pronoun.  I have fixed these before this letter goes to our FAQs.  ~PP>
Thanks, Sam

Bloated Puffer  1/8/07
<Hi Emmett, Pufferpunk here>
I have a Mappa puffer and he is bloated and not due to overeating.  His belly was kinda little and it has progressed to where now it's visible on both sides when he's laying down. My pet store initially said just give him some time since he's eating ok but today he is laying on the very bottom of the tank and expressed no interest in eating.  He was not breathing fast but breaths were harder than usual and visible.  I use freeze dried krill to feed him.  Any suggestions for meds or treatments would be appreciated.  
<It would be helpful when you post a Q about an ailing fish, to include water parameters--ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH.  Also, tank size, fish size, water change schedule, how long you've had the fish.  Has it pooped lately?  You could try treating for constipation with 1 tbsp Epsom salt/5g.  Puffers need a varied diet, other than just krill.
See: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library.php?p=53  
Look into the Hospital Forum at that website for info on treating for internal parasites.  ~PP>
Thanks in advance, ES

Treating Dogface Puffers with "Ich"  1/4/07
Hi,
<Hi, Pufferpunk here>
I have 2 dogface puffers and they recently got ich. I added a Koran angel and I think that it has stressed them out.
<Did you QT the angel before adding to the puffer tank?  That's where the "ich" came from.>
I was wondering if a 20 gallon quarantine tank would be big enough for them?  I have an extra heater and Emperor 400 filter that I was planning on using. Thanks for all your help.
<It depends on how large your fish are.  
Please read: http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4576
Also, please be sure you use proper capitalization & punctuation.  We have to correct this, before posting on our FAQs.  Thanks, PP>

My Sick Stars and Stripes Puffer... env., faux trtmt.s  12/5/06
Hi-
I have a 55 gallon tank with a stars and stripes puffer he is around 4 inches long and will eventually be moved to a larger tank.)
<Needs to go... now>
Since earlier this year (when I purchased him from my LFS), he has been thriving. He has had a tremendous appetite and was always a pleasure to both watch and feed.
However, around a month ago, he began to constantly sit on his nose.
<... happens>
While this did not over worry me, his appetite began to decline.
<Also not unusual for Tetraodontids, other puffers>
I also noticed that he was starting to have severe buoyancy problems.
<A very bad sign>
He could also not
swim without bobbing up and down. This problem continued and has steadily worsened. I  also noticed that his fins( besides his large tail fin) have drastically decreased in size. From then to now, I, at different times, have treated this with Melanoma <...> and Rally (also used for treating parasites).
<... worthless phony remedies>
While there has been fin growth, other problems have developed. He now spends all of his tome floating on his back at the top of the tank. His eyes are active and he makes efforts to flip over- however, he has not been able to. Just in the past few days, I have noticed that he is bleeding from both the mouth and his fins.
<.... environmental>
During the time I have had him, regular water changes have been done ( and in accordance with the medicine.) The water has also recently been tested and is at near perfect salinity level (well in the safe zone.) The ammonia and nitrate are also at safe levels. Thanks for any help in trying to save my puffer. I love him dearly and hate to see him in the condition that he is in.
Thanks for the help,
Scott
<The very best action here is to move this fish to new, larger quarters... the problems you list are likely environmental (and possibly nutritional) in origin... psychological and physiological "crowding" has led to your puffers near demise. Bob Fenner>

Puffer death/strange symptoms   11/19/06
I am hoping that you might have some advice or information about our puffer. About two weeks ago, I introduced a dog faced puffer (purchased from a very reputable local store) into our tank (well-established tank, 2 years old). It was a wonderful specimen, and we fell in love with him immediately. He thrived in the environment, got along with tank mates, and ate like crazy (krill, bloodworms, mussels, etc).  About ten days after getting him, he began to act lethargic (although still eating), and very quickly (less than a day's time) developed two very large, darkly discolored areas (one on his left side, about 1.5x1 inches; another on his right side/ventral area, about 1x1 inches). They seemed to bother him quite a bit, as he often tried to slam himself (not rub, but slam) against the live rock in the tank. The spots quickly grew over a one day period, became edematous and wrinkled in appearance, he began to act as if he felt miserable, and he perished very soon thereafter (the next day). We were not able to consult an 'expert' until afterwards, but were then told that puffers can often become constipated due to stress from being transported, and if the problem is not alleviated, they will develop an internal fungus (which presents itself as these very large, darkened areas) that is terminal.
<Mmmmmm? Is the animal still available for necropsy? Did you freeze the body? Am dubious (to a great extent) re this speculation/etiology>
We were also told that a primary way to treat this, should we notice no defecation, is to briefly place it in a container with some aquarium water and a bit of baking soda, which would immediately cause them to defecate.
<... No. More likely to kill the specimen... Perhaps a soak/bath with a good bit of Epsom/Magnesium Sulfate dissolved in it>>
My question is if this was our puffer's
problem (there is absolutely NOTHING on the internet about this), and if the supposed treatment is legitimate.
<The former I don't the latter I do doubt>
Also, if not, what the heck went wrong with the poor guy?
<W/o examination, no way to really tell... Does sound/read like some sort of internal triggered complaint... perhaps parasitic (worm, protozoan...?), maybe tumorous...>
I never want this to happen to another one of our puffers again-- it was adorable, friendly, and it was awful to witness his pain without being able to do anything for  it. Many, many thanks for any advice you can provide. I look forward to hearing from you!!
Best regards,
Susan
<Thank you for writing, sharing... I strongly suggest having this fish dissected if you still have its body on hand... to discern the make-up of these growths. Bob Fenner>

Puffer Problem - 10/22/2006
Hello, Mr. Fenner and/or WWM crew:
<Hi Mikel, MacL here with you today. Hope its good for you. Sorry for the slowness of the answer, for some reason this just showed up.>
Love your site; it is an inspiration to all of us who love this hobby.
<Very kind of you to say.>
I’ve been at this wonderful obsession of Marine Aquaria Keeping for nearly 2 decades, but was away from it for the last ten years.  I’m amazed at how far the hobby has come while I was on hiatus.  However most of my 17 year experience before was with natural seawater and natural substrates living in the Florida Keys collecting my own specimens.   So in many ways I am a newbie once again trying to learn all about this “New School” in Keepin Marine aquaria.  
<You'll be fine, basics still apply. Do it slow, research as much as you can, watch your tank.>
My situation deals here with a new Dog faced Puffer I’ve recently acquired.  I have the 3” puffer in a 50 gallon holding tank at the moment.  My QT or holding tank, as we call it, has a HOT Magnum power filter, a Remora C HOB skimmer, power head with 20 pounds of live sand and twenty pounds of live rock under 130 watts of PC lighting. I run the power filter with carbon switching off every four or five days with the micron cylinder.  I clean the skimmer cup and filter media daily.  Parameters are as follows:
SG: 1.022
Temp: 79
PH: 8.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates <10 ppm
KH 11dkh
I always hold all new livestock 6 weeks before introducing any item to either my reef tank or my semi aggressive FOWLR tank.  We also have another 20 gallon bare bottom QT tank (Empty) I reserve this for medication and/or hypo salinity treatments.  But for the moment Fideux, our new waterdog is in the 50 gallon with the following tankmates:
One 4” Aussie Harlequin Tusk
One 3” Bursa Trigger
One 3” Dragon Wrasse (Hit the sand like a drill haven’t seen him in a week)
One 4” Ember Blenny (Boss of the Tank)
So our 3” Water Pup is serving time with these four very swimmy, but so far mild mannered cellmates.  Everyone seems to be getting along peacefully in the small tank. The Tusk’s sentence is nearly up, as well as the other wrasse.  One more week and they will be paroled into our FOWLR, followed a week later by the blenny, the trigger and last but not least, Fideux, the Wonder Dog.  
<I would be a bit concerned here. I love that you have quarantine tanks and you are doing this so thoroughly but every time you add a new fish your quarantine should start over. The idea in my mind of a quarantine is to keep the fish isolated so that anything he has come in with can manifest himself. When you add new fish into the quarantine station you expose him to potentially catching something that one of the other fish came with.  I know lots of people quarantine with multiple fishes but it is an area for concern. Also, I really recommend spreading out the introduction of the fish to longer than a week at a time simply because the fish needs time to adapt to their new environment.>
However, we may hold the trigger a week and introduce him as the Last Fish.  So far he has been real chummy with the puffer, but this may change.  These will be the last five fish to go into our two display tanks.
Everything has been going well with the quarantine of these final fish.  All five were eating like pigs, Fideux eating from my hand already:  I’m feeding all of them fresh chopped squid, shrimp, krill and baby clams in the shell, all foods soaked heavily in fresh crushed garlic and Selcon.
<I love puffers, in my mind they are an amazing fish. I currently have a mappa puffer that has grown from less than an inch and a stars and stripes puffer.  What you are feeding them sounds great, and they will thrive on it. I want to caution you with letting them eat out of your hand, as they grow they get more and more enthusiastic about food and can get you instead of the fish.>
I hang the strips of meaty foods on lettuce clips tied to a string for easy withdrawal to keep trites and trates under control. (No cleaning crew allowed in this tank) I feed the Krill to the puffer by hand.  I never put free floating food into this crewless tank.  
<I use mixed bits and pieces of lobster and crab and other meaty seafoods as well.>
Last night, our wonderful little puffer, somehow managed to get himself stuck between the power head and the filter intake.  He had not puffed up before this, not even during acclimation.  But when I found him stuck, he was severely puffed.  I immediately unplugged the power and freed him from his predicament.  Although he was stuck, for God knows how long up high in the tank, fortunately he was wedged in there head down, so I don’t think he inflated with air.  However, there was an airstone in that corner of the tank showering him in a shroud of bubbles, so he may have ingested a bit of air from that.  At first he appeared to have a bit of trouble completely deflating, but finally after nearly 24 hours seems to be completely deflated.  But he is cowering in a little LR cave in one corner of the tank and won’t come out, and won’t eat, not even when I lower krill on a feeding stick right in front of his nose.  He just sits there sulking looking out.  His eyes are clear, and follow me around the tank.  He looks at the food, sniffs it, but will not take it.
<Puffers sulk. Do you see signs of damage on him? Bruising where he was stuck or something similar? My puffer blocks the overflow in my tank when he doesn't get fed enough or when he's being rotten and makes bubbles come into the tank. At first we were tremendously concerned that he kept doing that but now we just move him out from in front of it. He responds to the attention and splashes us and moves on and lets the water flow again.  Also, watch out. . . puffers spit water at you.>
Here is my concern.  I can’t see him well enough for a good examination, but from what I can see, using a magnifying glass, his skin looks kind of stretched out of shape, like it is kind of baggy.  It looks rough just under his muzzle and he has broken out in some sort of white specs.  It doesn’t look like Ich to me, because the specs are rather large, but it may be Ich.  We’ll hope for the best, but consider the worse.  The spots look kind of raised under the big M. Glass.  Perhaps the stress of the ordeal has given him Ich, although none of the other fish show any signs of it.  But all are acting differently, just a little more lethargic, hiding more, whereas they were always swimming in the water column before.  Well, the Tusk has not slowed down, but the Blenny is staying still more and the trigger stays in the cave with the puffer now, only coming out for food.  Everyone is eating well except the puffer.
<My guess is that his skin is pulled a bit loose. Nothing to worry about unless he does come down with some type of bacterial infection or indeed it is ich. But in my experience, ich on a puffer is difficult to see unless you see spots on the fin.>
Of course, my first fear was a toxic event from the stressed, inflated puffer.  Right after the incident I did an immediate 25% water change.  Then another 25% about 12 hours later, trying to maintain the same temp and PH, however, SG has come up a little to just under 1.023  I also replaced the micron filter with fresh carbon and hung a basket of Poly filter under the outlet of the skimmer.  I am getting a lot of skimmate and the water smelled a little fishy right after the event, but smells fresh now.  If there was a tetradotoxins release, I think the tank is clear of it now, although I may keep doing water changes daily until normal behavior return to the other fish. What I’m wondering is, if this event caused enough stress to the puffer to break out in Ich, should I hold the Tusk and trigger longer now rather than putting them into the display and exposing my FOWLR to the parasite, if in fact that is what it is?  Also, if I have to treat the puffer for ich, I’ll have to cycle the BB tank and trying to get the puffer out of his cave which will probably stress him even more.  Or should I leave everyone where they are and just observe.  Please forgive the long winded post.  I’m a writer, and we do tend to get a little wordy.
<I'm so sorry for the delay.  I would love to know his condition. If you have to treat the puffer for ich be extremely cautious because puffers have problems with some of the medications used to treat ich.  I think adding the carbon was a good idea.  I do have a suggestion for you as well. A lot of people who use quarantine tanks keep sponge filters in their other tanks to constantly be cycled so if they have to do a quick set up they have a tank that is quickly set up.  The skin should go back to normal and he should start eating within a couple of days, if not you do have a problem because they have such a high metabolism, especially in my experience when they are small and they need lots of food. Or they start to fade away.  Please let me know how he is doing. MacL>
Thanks,  Mikel Stevenson

Sick dog face puffer - please help!  - 09/14/06
Dear crew,
<Lana>
Our female dogface puffer has not been eating for almost 3 weeks, is very inactive and seems to be getting worse every day. There are no visible parasites, ich or anything unusual on the skin, eyes or gills. She is passing something that looks like white clusters.  
<Perhaps indicative of internal parasitic situation>
This is not the first time the puffer stopped eating - in the past, once a year or so, she had periods lasting between a few days to 1 week of not eating.
<Not uncommon as am sure you're aware>
Usually a little Epsom salt would solve the problem. Last year during a period like that she got very big - we thought she was constipated; after we added some Epsom salt she started passing the white clusters and after that she laid eggs. It looked like bright yellow ribbons were coming out of her. It happened twice in the same day, with maybe one-hour interval. After this she started eating again and went back to normal.
<Perhaps time to try a vermifuge... see WWM re>
This time she is not eating for 3 weeks - we don't know how long she can last without food. Also, if she is trying to lay eggs again and has a problem with that, what can we do to help her? We would very much appreciate any advise you can give us.
Here is a little background info:
The puffer is about 5.5 years old; we've had her since she was a baby.
Water Parameters:
PH 8.3
sal 1.023
temp approx 80 degrees
ammonia 0
nitrates/nitrite - untraceable
System:
55 gallon tank
<Too small>
live rock/crashed coral
Eheim professional 2
Fluval FX 5
Hang on refugium with mud and algae
<Good>
Tankmates:
3 damsels
1 cowfish
<This fish could easily be having an ill-effect on the Tetraodontid>
Nothing has been changes/added in years
Feeding - frozen, 2-3 cubes a day of the following:
Formula One
Squid
Special Formula VHP
Spirulina
Thank you very much for your help,
Best regards,
Art and Lana
<I'd try Praziquantel... otherwise patience, a larger system. Bob Fenner>

Sick Dog Face Puffer   8/29/06
Hi, my name is Beth, my husband and I have a dog face puffer, and  I think he's really sick; but I don't know what the problem is.
<Hi Beth, you have Justin with you tonight, one of the resident puffer people.>
None of the two local fish stores that we go to can tell us whats wrong they just suggest to do water changes.  We have.  We have had  Pudge for about eight months with nothing else but a crab. Please Help Me!!!  I am really sorry if you have already answered a question like this, but I've done tons of research on your website and can't find any answers.  About ten days ago Pudge stopped eating and swimming on the third day I noticed he was breathing very heavy his left gill was opening very wide and when he did swim not aggressively at all he would bmp into the live rock and the glass as if he didn't even see it.
<Signs of poor water quality generally>
We did a water change and added bio-Spira that night at about 10:00 he was laying on his side and getting all these brown spots on him I thought he was dying.  With no suggestion from the fish store as a last resort  I told my husband to put the medication Rally in his tank, within 20 min. the spots were gone , the next day his breathing improved, the following day he was swimming around again still with no signs of hunger.
<Brown spots?  can you get a photo?  do you mean that the puffer was turning blotchy, or that he was actually covered in small black/brown dots?>  The day before yesterday I noticed what seems to be mucus coming out of his mouth and his one left gill. Still not eating.  Yesterday I tried force feeding him but he wouldn't take it.  Today he just seems to be in the same position he was ten days ago.  This morning I put some more medication in but it doesn't seem to be working he is breathing heavy again with no energy at all. He is very dark brown but when I go over to the tank it seems that he is trying to turn that grayish white color he normally is but cant and he gets these white spots all over him almost like a leopard.  I don't know what to do I feel helpless. I hope you can help me.  
  Thank you so much for your time.
          Beth
<Beth, without knowing key things about your setup such as tank size, size of the puffer, water parameters (Take your water to be tested or if you have a test kit, use it  and reply back), and what type of blotches you are seeing, it is hard to tell you anything you can do.  your LFS is right that water changes (50%) will be very helpful, but I'm concerned with the adding medicine and spots disappearing, that sounds like black spot disease or black ich, which is a parasite.  If it is black ich, (small black spots all over the body/gills) fresh water dipping and gravel vacuuming your entire tank will help remove most of them, however please read on WWM about black spot disease to get a better feel for if that is what is actually happening.  At this point do the water changes, and try adding garlic juice to the puffers food to entice it to eat.  Answer the questions above and reply back and we can go from there.>
<Justin>

Re: Sick Dog Face Puffer. Justin was right, bunk env.   8/29/06
The puffer is about 5-6 inches..   he is in a 30 gallon tank
<Too small... unstable>
and I have a 70 gallon aqua clear filter running.   I also have a powerhead.  the nitrates are really high
<Also...>
when the water was tested.   I did a water change but the nitrates are still very high.  He is breathing very heavy and has white blotches all over him not salt looking though.
<"Fix the environment, cure the fish". Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/trupufsysfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Sick Dog Face Puffer   8/30/06
Hi Justin,
<Beth>
I believe my husband just e-mailed you back regarding tank size ect.  I'm not to knowledgeable about fish my husband is more the fish type than I am, but I do love my little pudge.  I have tried soaking his food in garlic and still nothing.  The spots I'm seeing literally look like he's trying to change to that grayish white color, but instead of fully changing color he gets these white spots.  How  else can I make him eat I'm really concerned that he has gone this long w/o food.  I know that's not the key problem but I feel if I can get food in him it will build his strength and immune system. I feel like I need to do something immediately but  I don't know what.  I really hope you can help me Justin.  Thank you so much!!
<I have not seen any email from him yet, until I do there isn't much more I can tell you. Please see if he can resend it or if another crew member tackled his email>
<Justin>