FAQs on Algal Filtration: Designs Related Articles: Algae Scrubber Input/Update by Bryan, How to make a simple Algae Turf Scrubber (ATS), By Simon Trippick, Nutrient Control and Export, Marine Set-Up, An Introduction to Reef Systems, Refugiums, Reef Filtration, Marine System Plumbing, Marine Aquarium Set-Up, Moving Aquariums, Marine Biotope, Marine Landscaping,  Related FAQs: Algal Filtration 1, Algal Filtration 2, FAQs on: Algal Filtration Rationale/Science, Algal Filtration Lighting, Algal Filter Install, Algal Filter Operation/Maintenance, Algae Filters as Food Sources, Algal Turf Scrubbers (ATS) Filters, Algal Filter Troubles/Fixes, & Mud/Algal Filtration, Refugium Substrates/DSBs, Reef Set-Up, Reef Set-Up 2, Reef Set-Up 3, Reef Set-Up 4, Reef Set-Up 5, Reef Maintenance, Sumps/Filters, Sumps/Filters 2, Marine System Plumbing,  Marine Aquarium Set-Up,  Live Rock,  Live Sand, Fish-Only Marine Set-ups, Fish-Only Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish and Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems, Coldwater Systems, Small Systems, Large Systems,  Best Marine Set-Up FAQs 1, Best FAQs 2, Marine Set-Up 1,

... many roads

Downstream refugium 10/7/03 I just completed adding a downstream refugium in my sump. I sectioned off a small area of my 24 inch sump. The refugium area is 12inch high by 6 inches long by 12 inches wide. It probably holds less a little under 5 gallons of water. <still helpful. Aspire to 20-40% display tank in volume for future> I added about 2 inched of crushed coral and will add 2 inches of crushed live rock as a substrate. <very good for zooplankton production> I am going to be using a 13watt PC light. My display tank is a 75 gal w 80lbs of LR. I would like to know what type of macroalgae I should add to this refugium that would do ok with this light. <even if this refugium were not so small... you would still be restricted to a single species of macro for optimal health/vigor and utility. Seek Chaetomorpha IMO here to assist with plankton production and nutrient export> I am a little scared about adding Caulerpas because of what I have reading on your web page. <many scientific papers on the subject... I can share a couple dozen references on the toxicity of Caulerpa or you can search the Net abroad for references to Caulerpene and Caulerpenyne for starters> What else could I add beside Turtle grass and Halimeda? <neither are recommended here... Halimeda does less for nutrient export or plankton production... and Turtle grass is too large for this vessel> Could you please give me a few ideas? <other than Chaetomorpha... Gracilaria is an excellent choice. Ochtodes is fine too. All of these and more are detailed extensively in our new book Reef Invertebrates> I should mention that I am really interested in keeping soft corals like Colts, Xenias and Cladiellas. <if looking for the upright and branching Cladiella "colt" corals, know that they are not called Klyxum (2000 Alderslade)> You guys have convinced me that a refugium is a better way to go than adding Kent's Phytoplex and ChromaPlex. What Macroalgae should I use to benefit these types of corals. Thanks Ron The Gracilaria may have some slight edge here for lending epiphytic matter to the Alcyoniids you intend to keep. Much to read/learn/explore... enjoy the journey! Anthony>

Ecosystem Can you give me some info on the Leng Sy-Ecosystem, i.e. how to set it up and what equipment I would need? If you could send diagrams to help me understand it better I would be grateful. <Please see the following: http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mudfiltrfaqs.htm http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mudfiltfaq2.htm> Thank you, Janet <You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Caulerpa vs. Seagrass for Refugium & MM filter Anthony, <cheers, mate> I was reading through "FAQs about Refugium IV" section and you stated: "Syringodium manatee seagrass would be awesome here... many benefits to it as a refugium. Whatever you choose, though, PLEASE do not use Caulerpa... an awful thing to do to a coral system on a larger scale" Can you explain this further? I want to understand why would Caulerpa be bad in a refugium?  <yes... my pleasure. Caulerpa itself is not so bad, but rather easily mismanaged. For decades aquarists have enjoyed its benefits of great nutrient export with little trouble because we rarely did/could keep it in large masses (tangs, angels and other fishes eating it in check) and the lack of refugium applications. Now that refugiums have become popular, aquarists are keeping it in larger quantities and discovering the many pitfalls with it. The problem is that it is very labor intensive to maintain safely in large quantities. It must be harvested systematically like clockwork (!!!) and you should not cut branches (saps noxious elements and risks a disastrous sexual event of pollution)... instead each frond must be carefully hand picked and extracted to thin the colony. Caulerpa also contains some of the most noxious elements known that inhibit coral growth. They secrete serious discolorants into the water that require ozonation or weekly changes of carbon to maintain water clarity, and the risk of a sexual event (expelling all of the nutrients from growth en masses) can cause catastrophe in some systems. Other plants share similar negative qualities... but none so commonly and to the extent of Caulerpa. It is simply too risky in large quantities... BUT... I do enjoy and recommend it in small amounts. I'll publish a paper soon on the topic. Many experienced aquarists are discovering this dilemma with Caulerpa... I got some scientific references from Eric Borneman who is very much in agreement on the topic: ANYTHING but Caulerpa is better :) > Also, I am setting up a 350g (96"x24"x36") reef tank in the spring with SPS as the primary inhabitants.  <the your definitely do not want Caulerpa... shown to markedly inhibit the growth of stonies> The plan was to use and EcoSystem mud filter that uses Caulerpa.  <I see no significant advantage using Caulerpa here... although I do like the idea of you using a fishless refugium to generate natural plankton for your zooplankton feeding SPS (little phyto here)> The EcoSystem site recommends Caulerpa but states Seagrass can be used also. Do you believe Caulerpa is bad in this setup and would you recommend Seagrass as an alternative?  <definitely> If so, what are the pros/cons? <slower, safer and more manageable growth of seagrasses. Less noxious compounds exuded, a true plant that does not execute a sexual vegetative state/event under duress, more useful epiphytic material shed from the blades of the seagrasses... perhaps better support of copepods populations for it. Thalassia is a shorter seagrass species for refugia under 24"> Thanks as always. <best regards, Anthony> - Rob

Re: Sump/Filter Design Hi Guys, I'll clarify my previous post. If I use the Caulerpa/refugium set-up, I would use this as my sump. It would be located underneath the main tank. The compartment I was talking about for my return pump, is actually the last part of the sump separated from the compartment holding the Caulerpa. This is the reason why I question my idea. Would this be too much flow for the Caulerpa to be effective. <Maybe... it would be better to either place the Macrophyte/s in a separate "refugium" type sump with much more limited flow, or to build in a "bypass" or separate low-flow area for the Caulerpa in the present sump design> The reason I was thinking of not using a skimmer was the benefit of not skimming (coralline algae spores, less heat, plankton, etc), and the skimmer would out compete the Caulerpa. As far as the noxious compounds go, I thought that the 24hr light cycle is supposed to keep those compounds from forming. Thanks again for the help. Mike <The 24 light regimen does indeed do this. I am a fan of using at least "partial skimming"... either alternating time (like one day on, next day off) or a much-undersized unit for the application... rather than no skimming at all. Bob Fenner>

Algae bed/Mud + Refugium? + Skimmer? Hi Dr. Fenner, <Just Bob please> I respect your experience and I appreciate your willingness to share it. I have read through all of your FAQ's on refugia and mud filtration and I would like to bounce a few ideas off you. I am just getting started down the road towards acquiring my first saltwater system. I've been reading for the past 6 weeks and have become a fixture at the LFS's. <A good place to study> The goal of my system is to have a healthy system with the lowest possible maintenance necessary. In addition to the common reef inhabitants, I am MOST interested in keeping one or two Mandarinfish and I am coming to understand the challenges they bring. I have seen some algae/mud systems (no skimmer) in operation and I am very impressed with the quality of the water they produce. I understand that the water in these systems needs to be turned over about 5 or 6 times per hour. Is it possible for this type of sump to act as a refugium and produce enough live food for the Mandarins to eat with the water moving this fast? <Yes> Secondly, what is the survival rate for the plankton if it is being pumped at this speed? <Very high. I would speculate in the ninety plus percentage... those critters are tough> So lets say that you believe the water is moving too fast to grow enough food or the pump is killing too much of the plankton and I add a true refugium above the tank to grow food and other species that aren't suited to the main tank. I'll move the water through here pretty slowly and gravity feed it back to the main tank. <Fine> Now I have crystal clear water and yummy food for the Mandarins. Finally, the skimmer question comes up. I understand you like them and I will probably end up with one. However, I will probably begin without one as an experiment to see how much fish-life I can safely support without one.  <Better to start off with one, then turn it down, cycle it on/off...> The research I have done and the feedback from others seems to indicate that an algae bed/mud system without a skimmer is sufficient if you keep the fish population fairly low. I'd like to do some tests on this theory and try to better understand if/when the skimmer becomes necessary. Finally, I'd like to hear your feedback on running the skimmer, the algae/mud bed, and the refugium together. My thought would be to put the refugium above the tank and the skimmer and algae/mud below in the sump with the skimmer coming after the physical filtration and before the algae/mud bed. <Okay> What of Leng's argument that the skimmer will take the plankton and trace nutrients out of the system? <To some degree true... But what of the advantages of running the skimmer?> Given that the algae/mud bed is lit 24hrs/day, I understand that the use of a refugium that is only lit 12 hours per day on alternate cycle from the main tank is optimal. Can you explain how/why this reduces the fluctuation in chemistry? <Mmm, optimal? Depending on the types of life employed, either lighting regimen can be "optimal" for the system, water overall. Alternating the cycle can save Redox, dissolved oxygen vacillations... leaving the light on continuously on the refugium/sump can accomplish the same> In this scenario (algae/mud bed lit 24hrs/day - refugium lit 12 hours per day opposite lighting of main tank) , what do you think of running the skimmer during the time that the main tank is dark and the refugium is lit. My understanding is that this is when the bugs stay close to the bottom of the refugium and are not brought into the tank in large numbers. Therefore, the skimmer would not be skimming the bugs during feeding time. <A good idea, hypothesis to try out> Would turning the skimmer on and off on a daily basis cause just the chemistry changes I am trying to avoid? Does the skimmer really kill the plankton I have worked so hard to grow? <Systems can be co-opted, marginalized in either case> What about Keep It Simple, Stupid. Am I going way overboard here. I feel that the benefit of biodiversity and food source from the refugium outweighs the cost of complexity. I'd like to get away with the algae/mud bed acting as this refugium - I'm just not sure if the algae/mud bed will feed my Mandarins. <Try it out> Furthermore, I am afraid that the skimmer will become necessary as I add more fish down the road but that's a complication as well. <Yes> That's about it, for now. Thank you immensely, -Jeremy
<Be chatting my friend. Bob Fenner>

Algae filtration question Hello Bob I have only four weeks as a marine aquarium hobbyist and by reading all your web site and a few books I know more about it than the so called experts at my office. Thanks a lot for the great web site! <And for your being part of it> I have one question regarding algae filtration. I have a 75 gallon tank. I only have 40 pounds of live sand and 100 pounds of live rock in it for the last four weeks. I am planning to start introducing just a few fish and maybe some invertebrates next week. I have no hurry on this...just keeping it at a slow pace. <Try the hardy invertebrates you intend first... better than fishes for now> Anyways, I have two overflows: one goes into my wet/dry (which I plan to eventually remove the bio-balls!!) and the other goes to a 30 gallon Rubbermaid. I only have a Red Sea turbo skimmer with the submerged pump on the 30 gallon Rubbermaid. I also have a small Rio 600 pump which pumps a regulated flow of water from the Rubbermaid to the wet dry just to keep a safe balance between the two.  <I hope/trust you also have "just" a gravity overflow to this wet-dry sump? Don't rely on any pumping mechanism alone... a disaster in time> I also happen to have a regular and basic 40 watts fluorescent light Home Depot) on top of that just to see when I work under the cabinet. My question is: Can I use the Rubbermaid as an algae filter also? <Yes> Will the skimmer continue skimming even with the Caulerpa inside the same sump? <Yes> Will the macroalgae clog the pumps thus reducing flow- I have no space for divisions - everything will be mixed in the one-space Rubbermaid? <Fashion a reasonable into screen... perhaps going to the bottom of the container... with a bit of egg-crate over a manifold of drilled PVC pipe... the algae growing on rock above this...> Can I just leave the current lamp that I have and just leave it 24hrs on? <Yes. Please read over the FAQs files on Refugiums, Sumps posted on the Marine index on www.WetWebMedia.com  Others have "done" what you propose> I would love to have some algae filtration inside that sump. Thanks a lot for the great reference material provided on the web site. Thanks a lot for answering my questions. Saludos amigo! Guillermo Martinez San Juan, Puerto Rico <Nos vemos my friend. Bob Fenner> Re: Algae filtration question Thanks a lot for answering my questions. This will be my last question. at least for now...can't promise thought...more information always seem to lead to more questions. Since this Caulerpa will be kept in a relatively tight space (probably only a small amount of macro-algae can be kept). Is there any species of Caulerpa or perhaps a better species that will do the job better without occupying a whole lot of space. <Please read through the Caulerpa materials stored on www.WetWebMedia.com Bob Fenner> Thanks Guillermo Re: Algae filtration question Bob: Thanks for the reply. I really appreciate your help. I am not sure I understood your idea. Will the macro-algae clog the pumps thus reducing flow- I have no space for divisions - everything will be mixed in the one-space Rubbermaid? <Fashion a reasonable into screen... perhaps going to the bottom of the container... with a bit of egg-crate over a manifold of drilled PVC pipe... the algae growing on rock above this...> I included a diagram (sorry for my poor drawing abilities) of my interpretation of what you suggested. Is what I tried to depict correct? Again, thanks a lot for your help. <A very nice line drawing... with color! This is exactly what I had in mind. Should work out fine. Bob Fenner> Gracias amigo! Guillermo Martinez

Comments on Ecosystems products Hi Bob, <Hello> Comments and not really questions from the gal with the too small tank-- in your opinion. :-) <Okay, glad to have the input> Before you left you wrote some comments on Ecosystems, and I did not agree with you on the difficulty involved. I am a total newbie and never even did freshwater before, not counting a few fish bowls. Anyway you said it was very difficult to do and I don't agree. My livestock (soft coral and fish) tank is beautiful and healthy. The fish get brighter colored than they were at the store. <Hmm, refresh my memory here... Ecosystems as in Leng Sy's Miracle Mud? I said "it" was "very difficult to do"... what is "it"? Leng's systems are about the ultimate in simplicity... no skimmer, only a pump and light...> I did have early problems with my tank, but they were the result of listening to bad advice. They had little to do directly with the Ecosystems. <Okay> However I think that the basic setup is very easy. I don't agree with Ly Seng's recommendations for when to put in creatures-- or algae for that matter. <Please do write him re this. He is very interested in hearing about such matters> Here is the deal, as far as I know: A fellow here has a small warehouse type store and has done quite a few of these tanks. Most of these are really his recommendations. You should wait at least a month before putting in creatures or algae. <Good idea> Ly Seng assumes you are getting cured rock. This may have been a problem as I mail-ordered the rock so it was not completely cured. You need critters before you add algae or it won't "take". The algae takes better if it growing on LR not rubber banded to a piece of rock. <Yes> Also I do the usual water changes and testing. Ly Seng recommends the water changes and not the testing. <Really?> I do 5% a week. And do testing once a week on the main things, and Ca, Alk, and Phos less frequently. Testing results are usually "boring". :-) The one difficult thing is that the testing may *not* show a regular cycle. So you need to wait a month or so, and also be sure your rock has no sulfur smell. <Good advice> Another piece of advice from my experience is this: all other laws of keeping aquaria are the same. So don't listen to GARF etc. :-} <Hmm> Another thing I don't know about is the protein skimmer. I have never had one in the tank, but think it would have been helpful a few times and initially. I may get one for "emergencies". <A good idea in my estimation, experience> BTW, I wish Ecosystems had: 1. better documentation 2. replaced the Rio600 with something else. ( I think generally that these Rios are going into protein skimmers, refugiums, etc. and ruining otherwise good products. The darned Rio lasted only three months, but at least it didn't explode!!!! I replaced this with a MaxiJet 400 but that wasn't even close. I read that the MaxiJet 900 was closer. 3. I think the Miracle Mud is too expensive. And he should change the name as I have seen people who won't use it because of the name. Frankly it isn't anymore preposterous, IMO, than Instant Ocean. Think about it. :-) (BTW, I think he's in Orange County-- this may explain his price scale.) <Perhaps. If you don't mind I am going to forward your suggestions to Leng... very useful> Oh yeah, I wanted to recommend a book (for your readers, probably it's a little easy for you or any marine biologists :-)). Strangely it is the "Marine Biology Coloring Book" by Thomas Niesen. <Hey, I used this book to teach "Nearshore Marine Biology" courses here in San Diego (at State and UC Extension)... and have a review of this worthy tome (and a fabulous colored pencil artistic copy) on the WWM site under "Book Reviews"...> It is very well illustrated and contains lots of neat info. This is not at all on the idiot's guide level. It contains info on various species of fish and inverts; physiology; various zones (reef, rocky shore, sandy shore, etc); form and function. It really lacks a good bibliography but then you have that.  <Write Tom on this, please... he has heard it from me> Plus the "you do it" aspect which is nice for us visual and kinesthetic learners. Also coloring it yourself makes the book a lot cheaper than it would be otherwise. :-) <And more fun, and "magical" in a learning sensu dictu... > Anyway, I hope this all is helpful to someone. Your prolific writer friend. I hope it's not too long. <No worries my eclectic pet fish ichthyologist friend. Bob Fenner> --Jane J

Re: Comments on Ecosystems products Hi Bob, You asked a couple questions here. >>Before you left you wrote some comments on Ecosystems, and I did.... >>Anyway you said it was very difficult to do and I don't agree. >><Hmm, refresh my memory here... Ecosystems as in Leng Sy's Miracle Mud?  >>said "it" was "very difficult to do"... what is "it"? Leng's systems are about the ultimate in simplicity... no skimmer, only a pump and light...> I may have misunderstood, however I think someone asked how difficult it was to set up this system and you said "very". Of course he could have asked how easy it was to setup! :-) <Yikes> Or it may have been a couple double negatives in there. Unfortunately I can't find the original article, FAQ. <Should be posted on the WWM site... with time, much patience, the Google search feature would bring it up... under Leng Sy, perhaps "Ecosystems" or "Miracle Mud?"...> >However I think that the basic setup is very easy. I don't agree with Ly Seng's recommendations for when to put in creatures-- or algae for that matter. ><Please do write him re this. He is very interested in hearing about such matters> >>Also I do the usual water changes and testing. Ly Seng recommends the water changes and not the testing. >><Really?> Yes, they told me not to test. Take it to the LFS and have it tested occasionally. They do recommend thermometers and hydrometers, though. <Bizarre... folks should measure whatever they "use"...> >><Perhaps. If you don't mind I am going to forward your suggestions to Leng... very useful> Yes, I would appreciate this. <I will make it so> >>Oh yeah, I wanted to recommend a book (for your readers, probably it's a little easy for you or any marine biologists :-)). Strangely it is the "Marine Biology Coloring Book" by Thomas Niesen. >><Hey, I used this book to teach "Nearshore Marine Biology" courses here in San Diego (at State and UC Extension)... and have a review of this worthy Cool class, too bad about the impossible commute. ;-) <Travel is possible> >>tome (and a fabulous colored pencil artistic copy) on the WWM site under "Book Reviews"...> Didn't find the original colored artist copy though? <It was/tis me m'lady> >> sandy shore, etc); form and function. It really lacks a good bibliography but then you have that. >><Write Tom on this, please... he has heard it from me> Coloring concepts is on the net, but I don't see another address. <This is it... they will forward your correspondence> >><No worries my eclectic pet fish ichthyologist friend. Bob Fenner> Hey I like this! :-) <You should... "it" is you> Be writing to thee fish guru par excellence. <You humble me madam. Bob Fenner> --Jane J

Re: A Couple more Comments on Ecosystems products Hi Bob, I had a couple more comments, based on my experience. Of course, I hope not too many more as this could go on infinitely. :-} <You are right> >Unfortunately I can't find the original article, FAQ. ><Should be posted on the WWM site... with time, much patience, the Google search feature would bring it up... under Leng Sy, perhaps "Ecosystems" or "Miracle Mud?"...> Yes, I could. I did a bit of a search. Lots of info here. I think the points I have made are the same anyway though. I likely turned it around. Look what I did to Leng Sy's name. :-} <<No worries.> > >>Also I do the usual water changes and testing. Ly Seng recommends the water changes and not the testing. > >><Really?> >Yes, they told me not to test. Take it to the LFS and have it tested occasionally. ><Bizarre... folks should measure whatever they "use"...> I didn't test for that more important reason. I was/am curious. I want to know what's going on in the tank. Perhaps at some point I will learn by looking at the creatures, rock. BTW, all other Ecosystem users (6 or so) I have emailed back and forth with, have all tested, at least initially. <I would too> > >><Perhaps. If you don't mind I am going to forward your suggestions to Leng... very useful> >Yes, I would appreciate this. ><I will make it so> Another couple things: They don't necessarily recommend substrate. They say coralline will grow eventually. I disagree. I was very unhappy with no substrate. Although there was enough dust and so on so the fish weren't gazing at their images in the bottom, the tank looked sterile and unnatural. I think a couple inches is sort of mandatory. <Will send this along to Leng... more voluble data points> Supposedly a bare tank aids in the vacuuming of detritus. If you vacuum enough then you won't have the cover for the bottom. <Agreed> I added some and added more later. It's easier to do it at start-up. <Yes> Also he feels the one Rio600 is enough. For a larger tank (I mean than a ten gallon), you need more. Once I put in the MaxiJet 1000 various pest algae disappointed like magic. <Again, agreed> I also add buffer. May start adding calcium. Other Ecosystem keepers also add buffer and/or calcium. Perhaps it depends on what you do with your water. Since I add DI water, the pH is always lower than acceptable. <Yes> > >><No worries my eclectic pet fish ichthyologist friend. Bob Fenner> >Hey I like this! :-) ><You should... "it" is you> >Be writing to thee fish guru par excellence. ><You humble me madam. Bob Fenner> Reinforce your hyperlexic writers and they will write more. :-) <Yes> Anyway I am glad to have a safe forum to write my experiences. The newsgroup isn't very receptive to comments about Ecosystems. It ends up as flame bait. <Hmm, wonder why this is? Bob Fenner> --Jane J

Re: A Couple more Comments on Ecosystems products Hi Bob, I decided to wait a couple days before writing back. I *like* email, but realize you have LOTS!! <Yes, and thankfully "like" it too> Anyway, I wonder, do you really want an answer to that. I have a few and they are "serious" but I wondered if this was a hypothetical question (not sure that is the right word). >Anyway I am glad to have a safe forum to write my experiences. > The newsgroup isn't very receptive to comments about Ecosystems. >It ends up as flame bait. ><Hmm, wonder why this is? Bob Fenner> <Actually... yes I was/am serious (well, about as much as I ever am... much larger real/philosophical question here/there). I do wonder at your perception/the reality of "receptiveness"...  Bob Fenner> --Jane J

Re: Why Ecosystems is flame bait on ngs (IMO) Hi Bob, >I decided to wait a couple days before writing back. I *like* email, but realize you have LOTS!! ><Yes, and thankfully "like" it too> It's a darn good thing! (otherwise I suppose you would have another hobby, life style, whatever... :-) <Yes my friend, tienes razon> > >Anyway I am glad to have a safe forum to write my experiences. > > The newsgroup isn't very receptive to comments about Ecosystems. > >It ends up as flame bait. > ><Hmm, wonder why this is? Bob Fenner> >>Anyway, I wonder, do you really want an answer to that. >>I have a few and they are "serious" but I wondered if this
<Actually... yes I was/am serious (well, about as much as I ever am... much :-) >larger real/philosophical question here/there). I do wonder at your perception/the reality of "receptiveness"...> Yikes, this is quite philosophical! But mine might be different than other people as I am on the (very) high end of the autistic spectrum. (Ever wondered about the "wiring" of aquarists?) <Continuously> So here goes. Sorry if this is LONG. I really am hypergraphic. Arguments I have heard (and my comments as to validity): 1. Name of Miracle Mud. Some people are very upset on this one. I say it's no worse than "Instant Ocean". But apparently they aren't thinking of names of *other* products. (IO, Wonder Mud, etc.) No miracle, etc. I agree, but think it's marketing. <Yes... and no real need to be offended... my gosh, there are many folks who believe in "invisible friends", "the Easter Bunny", "Government efficiency"...> 2. Price of Miracle Mud. And nature of it. Some claim it is dirt from his back yard or nearby cliffs and they have seen him dig it. Also he won't tell anybody what's in it. I don't know why he has to, but perhaps he should say on the label something like "(terrestrial, mangrove or whatever) mud; special additives including iodine." (or whatever) <I would respond to such comments with "If you owned the product rights would you let on to its formulation, source? Me neither".> All aquarium stuff is over-priced, IMO. Just look what Southdown sand goes for versus CaribSea. But I agree he asks too much, and-- I think this is important-- that more would try it if the price were lowered. <Price point is important... I have said about the same sort of thing to Leng... but it is, about all he has to sell after all...> There are certain economic principles involved so that the higher price is actually deterring use rather than increasing profits. His actual system is too expensive too. (I got an almost $100 discount or wouldn't be doing it.) 3. The mud is terrestrial (btw, I don't know if it is or not). But this is given as a bad thing, I don't know if it is. IMO, you would have to say terrestrial= harmful in some way. <Don't think it is terrestrial in origin... but do think it has a simple additive nature... like ferrous sulfate...> 4. Some people have gotten the idea that Leng Sy is a scientist and not an inventor/aquarist. That he is selling his findings, more or less. This was never my understanding. <Hmm, his family owns a donut shop type of business... and he has some technical/engineering background from the country of his origin, Cambodia...> 5. Leng Sy overstates his claims or they are confusing. "Professional results etc. "I think there's a bit of truth in that problem, but the degree of overstatement is overstated. It's just marketing. OTOH, his system is easy enough and does produce good results. Salt water is not exactly low maintenance. I am not getting professional results-- whatever those are (?). <I really wish his ad starting with "Got Ich? This will help..." would change...> 6. He is marketing to beginners. I see no problem with this. I am of the opinion that most of his users are *not* beginners, and that I am more the exception. It isn't so easy to find, and a bit hard to get info on. 7. The idea of no protein skimmer. This isn't that new. How about the people with DSBs only? This works. Whether one would benefit or not is another story. I think perhaps one would be useful at times. <Many roads...> My opinion: 8. New idea. Fear of new things. This isn't exactly true either-- I think something of a cross between a refugium and algae scrubber. But fear of new things is "real". <We all tend toward the familiar...> 9. They are selling to beginners. Beginners have no "right" to do this. I think you are supposed to go thru years of initiation until you get into refugiums, etc. Beginners can't do this-- Poppycock, IME. My feeling is that the *some* "elders" in the hobby like their closely guarded secrets-- almost like this is a secret order. Leng Sy opened up these "secrets" to newbies and so on. I think there might be equal amounts of flaming for anybody else trying to sell some advanced idea to beginners. (I wonder what happened to those first suggesting protein skimming or wet/dry? <Luckily the Net didn't exist then... instead folks would tell and write me that I was "full of malarkey"... the PG version> I suppose I could try this if the ng existed LONG ago-- pre-GUI say. Run a dejanews search, I think they are archived forever. Frightening.) 10. (nothing) I just wanted ten things. :-) <I understand> your lengthy email ichthyologist wannabe friend, <You are what you believe and practice. Bob Fenner> --Jane J

Converting 40 gallon to sump I want to convert my old 40 gallon tank (34'' long 24'' deep) to a sump with Caulerpa and live rock for my 100 gallon fish/invert tank. The 40 currently has an eclipse system with the standard lighting. I am also installing a plenum in the sump. <Good ideas> I am thinking that it would be wise to at least keep using the eclipse "canopy" even without the filtration. <Okay> Bob: 1) If I upgrade to the 1x 55 watt SmartLite (50/50 tube), will this be enough light for Caulerpa and live rock even at 24'' deep? Is this a worthy expense? <Hmm... two would be better, but yes, a good start...> 2) The 40 gallon currently has the typical 2x18 watt T-8 tubes. Will the upgrade be dramatic or hardly noticeable (aesthetically)? <Dramatic both functionally and esthetically> 3) When creating this sump, how do you purchase the siphon pump and the return pump? It seems to me that it makes sense to go with two pumps that provide the same gph. . . <Yikes, you're frightening me... use an "overflow box" (I believe in gravity... though it has let me down... sorry about that) and a return pump... look at the CPR products website (link on the www.WetWebMedia.com site) here...> 4) I have read what is on the WWM site about circulation and understand about head placement. In my main tank, can you suggest a guideline for buying power heads for a 100 gallon tank? How many gph per head? <Dedicated? About 3-400 gph at the specified head> Thanks for your time and effort Bob. You are a valuable asset to this hobby !! David Dowless <A pleasure my friend. Bob Fenner>

Mud filtration Hello, I read an article from you. The sub caption is "A mud-filter mechanicals set-up.". <Yes> I live in Germany, there we don't have the miracle mud from ecosystem aquarium. So I wanted to ask, if there are other muds for use in mud filters. <Yes indeed. In point of fact, as you likely know from "planted aquarium" experience soils of most sorts contain minerals that can/do act as catalysts... and that there are some such materials in/on most rock, substrates...> Here where I live we have the good advantage that our region was a reef millions of years ago. There we have a strong heavy yellow mud with very high part of calcium carbonate. <Yes... am a visitor to parts of Germany every other year... during the InterZoo show in Nuremberg (Nurnberg) travel about...> Do you know if somebody tried to analyze the miracle mud? <Yes... Leng Sy, the owner of the company is a nearby (Los Angeles, we live in San Diego to the south) friend/associate... tells me he, and others have done so...> About 30 years ago, reef aquariums where started by placing a hand of mud in it, bacteria etc.... <Yes, do know this anecdote... thank you> Please drop me a line. Thanks. Stefan Brunnengr?er <Anytime my friend, danke. BTW, do you read das Aquarium? Bob Fenner>

Re: Mud filtration Hello Bob, yes but not often reading "das Aquarium", only if I get a free magazine from my dealer. There are not so interesting articles in there. I'm constantly reading "Koralle", where the discuss a mud filtration in the actual magazine. You can have a look: http://www.ms-verlag.de/meeresaquaristik/koralle/index.php <Thank you for this> What do you mean, should I try my mud in front of the door or shouldn't I? <I would just use live rock, not the mud for now> ... using a little tank and a hand full of Caulerpa ... Is only Caulerpa sertularoides working fine? <Yes> What's the real advantage of this algae? <Continuous photosynthesis mostly> Best Regards, Stefan Brunnengrer PS: Nuremberg is my favorite town here in Germany .. the old town ... the zoo ... the wonderful aquaristic shops ... :-) Do you know EW-Zoo in the Kopernikusstrasse? <Yes I do... very nice. Bob Fenner>

Mud/Algae Filtration >I've read your book and was very pleased with it - hoping you come out with additional books in the future. <Thank you, and yes, a few more in search of help in publishing, sales and distribution...> >I have a few questions that I was hoping you could help me with in regard to an EcoSystem mud filter that I'm considering using to replace a wet/dry that I have on a 70 gal reef tank (100 lbs of Fiji live rock). >1) In your opinion, would it be useful to include a protein skimmer (red sea Berlin classic, driven by rio2100) before the Ecosystem mud filter, or should the skimmer be removed altogether? <Yes... and surprisingly enough we do know Leng Sy very well, and did design a filter like his... but using a protein skimmer!!! A few years back, but never on to market... But to answer your query, YES, I would/Do use skimmers with our "mud type" live algae filters> >2) Should UV and OZONE be removed if using a Ecosystem mud filter, or can they remain? <I think these are/would be useful adjuncts to the filtration> >3) Can a calcium reactor me used with the Ecosystem, or is this ill-advised? <I strongly advise it... very useful> >4) Since my live rock is my main ammonia, nitrite, nitrate filtration, could I simply replace my wet/dry with a EcoSystem mud filter, or do I need to cycle the mud filter on a separate tank before using it to replace my >wet/dry? <In almost all cases, simply switching them will work out fine in such scenarios. As you suggest, the established components in the main system will re-adjust, keep bio-geo-chemical cycling going.> >Thanks much! <You're certainly welcome. Bob Fenner>

Mud? You referred to using a mud system a couple of times last week. Can you just throw some Caulerpa in the sump under a regular fluorescent tube and control phosphates or is it more complicated than that ? I really don't know what a mud filter is. Thanks >> This is about it... Some folks add mud purposely in addition... to supply possible missing materials, catalysts... Bob Fenner