Question on Substrates Follow up 4/25/06
Which would be better, a algae turf scrubber or a photosynthetic refugium?
<They both have pros and cons and I have used both with good success.  A refugium is cheaper and easier to set up, but in my experience a turf scrubber is more fool-proof.>
What method would you recommend to dose Kalkwasser?
<A slow drip at night time or full dose in the morning before the lights come on are preferred because they offset the normal drop in pH at night.  Kalkwasser should be mixed ahead of time and allowed to settle before use, and only the mostly clear liquid should be used.  Best Regards.  AdamC.>

Looking to install Sump Using Overflow Box Question... actually RMF's take on ATS "algal scrubbers"   2/1/06
Hello and Thanks in advance if you can help me.
<What if we can't but try real hard? Partial credit?>
I currently run a 90 gal reef tank and am looking for better results out of it. As of right now, my main source of filtration is an hang on tank ATS (algae
turf scrubber) I also use a small Protein skimmer (Aqua C remora) and canister filter to help out with particulates.
The best my tank looked was when it was about a year old. Very beautiful, everything was thriving. But it has been on a slow decline ever since (tank is
now about three years old)
<Typical... with these "scrubbers">
I have noted poor growth and colour in most SPS corals ( only four colonies have really done well)  I have lost several SPS corals regardless of how much
flow they received.
Water tests indicate perfect levels (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, pH, Ca, Alk salinity etc.)
<More to the world...>
But I believe it is a result of the ATS either leaching into the water (water has developed yellow tinge) or not effectively pulling everything necessary
out of the water. Or both.
<Yes... common, inevitable...>
The AquaC skimmer does pull out dark skimmate on a daily basis but I believe it is doing very little considering the volume of water compared to size of
skimmer.
Long story short... I feel I am relying on Scrubber too much and would like to include a larger skimmer into my scheme of things. I am confident that I
would see better results.( don't get me wrong...lots of things in the tank are growing beautifully...but room for improvement
<Not the skimmer that is lacking or can improve here>
So I'm looking to keep the ATS for the benefits of the reverse daylight pH effect and for it's surge which I also like.
But I would like to remove the AquaC skimmer and replace it with a CPR overflow box to siphon water from tank into sump so I could install larger skimmer
and eventually calcium reactor ( I'm about done with the 2 part stuff,)
<The reactor would help, and the addition of a sump/refugium>
Could this be done considering that I have a fluctuating water level due to
the twice a minute surge of water from the Scrubber?
<Not easily, no... unless the scrubber was rigged to a constant volume area of the tank or sump>
Would the water level drop below the Overflow and lose siphon?
<Possibly... depending on how this was all arranged>
I am planning to use the airlift attachment pump but did not know if this was possible or too risky.
<Is>
In case you are not familiar with a HOT scrubber....it works like this. A dedicated pump for the ATS sits inside a surface skimming box. The pump draws
water from the aquarium to a tray which fills up ( about 1.5 gallons ) and then dumps into one side of the aquarium.
<Am very familiar>
So the water level drops about an little over an inch in between dumps. Would this compromise the overflow box?
<Yes... can't be used here unless the above-mentioned modification is made>
I was looking to get a overflow that did 600gph and a return pump Mag Drive 700gph ( 500 gph at three feet )
Also, the skimmers I was considering were:
ASM GX2 approx $240
MRC MR1 approx $300
or AQUA C EV120 approx $350
any suggestions? Thanks again. -JOSH
<I would categorically abandon the algal scrubber... these units are poorly devised, maintenance headaches... responsible for the poor health and outright death of many marines... and look to other filtration technology. Bob Fenner>

- Bubbles and Dump Buckets -
I've been reading your site, and in great detail. There's so much useful stuff here, it will probably take me months to go through it all!
Anyway, another question for the crew!
I had been toying with a small turf scrubber for a reef tank (strictly supplemental to a skimmer/refugium setup), and had been contemplating having the surge fall into a far end of the tank through a confined open air sheet. Splash out wouldn't happen, but...
I've now been reading through the part of your site where people go on and on about bubbles, and...
Am I to take it that my idea for helping oxygenate the tank (open air fall) was maybe not such a good idea?
<In the case of a dump bucket system, you don't have anything to fear from micro bubbles.> Anyway, I'm having second thoughts about the turf scrubber, but I still want some kind of surge device, ala Carlson. Should it return under the water, instead of splashing into it? <Splashing is just fine. In my opinion, the whole micro bubble issue is overblown - it is a genuine problem and does occur, just not as often as some folks make out, so that a large portion of the posts you may have read are really about the aesthetic issues of air in the water and the perceived problem of micro bubbles rather than an actual problem.>
I'd seen net photos of some turf scrubbers that had some very heavy surges. They appeared bubbly. I was simply assuming that bubbly was okay. No, eh? <Bubbly in this case is fine.>
Joe
p.s. I'm okay with the noise. :)
<Cheers, J -- >

Aggressive algal filtration  
Hi, <Hello Dan> I have a 125 ( lit by 3 250w 10K plumbed into a 40g breeder frag tank and a 20 gallon algae fuge with a 250w 10k halide over it which then goes to a 20 gal sump w live rock rubble. Set up for over 6 months now. Currently my corals color up great sometimes unbelievably) and everything seems fine ( although growth could be better iMO.... but I wonder if I really need to skim?
The tank has a modest fish load and one small round stingray. (who is actually proven to be reef safe )
I think my algae growth is so intense (about half gallon tightly packed jar every week) that I might actually be starving my corals of basic algae nutrients. Nitrates are undetectable with the low range Salifert kit (is this really the best kit for nitrate????? <There are better, either the LaMotte or Hach kits are very good.> It seems kinda crappy) Currently I have a SeaClone 100 and its usually too dirty to produce. ( I get lazy with it)
The water clarity is somewhat greenish looking from the side. I use very little mech filtration). So do I need to skim if nitrates are undetectable?  Is my system better off without it? <It's always better to employ an efficient protein skimmer.  I personally think the Sea Clone is not efficient enough for a 125 gallon tank.  I would lean toward an Aqua C model.>  I do use carbon for 2 days out of the week before adding supplements.
Also I have a problem keeping ALK up.... Is this due to the massive algae growth I have? Are the acids released by the Caulerpa responsible for the rapid depletion of carbonates? <The fuge lighting should be on 24/7.  With the amount of algae you mention, CO2 production would be high with dark photoperiods.  CO2 will lower you alkalinity/ph.>
I currently use about 1 tablespoon of reef builder per day and dose very heavily with Kalk... but still cant get calcium up over 400. The tank is moderately stocked with SPS (i.e. about 10 medium sized colonies of various SPS and of course many frags. <Try using SeaChem's Reef Advantage Calcium (dry formula).>
Hey if this is Anthony Calfo responding... it was great to meet you at the WAMAS meeting!
Dan <James (Salty Dog)>

Problem with MMFI algae scrubbers
Hello! I thought I'd warn anyone buying a Algae Scrubber From MMFI Aquaricare. I bought a filtering system from Mark A. Reinke. Owner of the company. After I paid off my filtering system in December, I called, and asked Mark when he would send me my system. He said in March. I asked him why it would take so long to get my system. He said there were so many orders, that it would take that long to send it. Well, the very next month, the website is still on the web, but is under construction, and is updated often. But you can't reach him by the website, phone, or fax. I went to the Denver BBB, and he has five complaints against him this year, for not sending people their systems, or not replacing leaking and faulty algae scrubbers. I've contacted a legal aide service to help me get my money returned to me. Almost five hundred dollars. So buyers beware! < Thanks for the information, we'll pass this on. >
Deborah Mitchell
<  Blundell  >

EZ algae filter system?
<Hello Acer>
Hi - I have been reading you site a lot. Have you ever heard of a company called EZtank? they are saying that you only need an algae scrubber unit and no protein or wet/dry do you have an opinions on this type of filter and what is it.< It probably is very similar to the Ecosystem which has been around for a while.  I've seen the Ecosystem in action and it definitely keeps the nuisance algae from growing in the display tank.>Their web site is difficult to navigate and I cannot figure out the actual makings of the product. I am setting up a 75 reef with 2 Jebo 48" lights=460 watts of PC lighting. Have live rock and sand from existing 55 gallon salt -fish only setup. <The Ecosystem is basically a 10 gallon tank with baffles and the bottom media is "Miracle Mud" or something like that.  It comes with a PC mini hood.  Caulerpa or some type of higher algae is required for the system to work.  You might want to go to www.premiumaquatics.com.  They have it and also a link to the Ecosystem company.  I've never heard of EZtank yet.>
?? on the rest of setup. If the algae scrubber does what they say then I really only need a sump/refugium for an isolation area and to grow plant food- no actual filtration.<That is the filtration. James (Salty Dog)>
I love your site, thanks for the help,
Acer  

New tank w/ refugium
Hello WWM,<Hello, MikeB here.>
Love your website, very helpful...I just set up a new tank (55g) w/ a refugium (29g) underneath.  The tank is cycling at the moment.  Set-up...about 50-60lbs of base rock, 5lbs of live rock, and a 5-6" DSB of very fine sugar aragonite sand in both tanks seeded w/ a cup of live sand in each tank.  I was wondering when do I put in my macro algae?<You could put it in the tank now if you want.  There is no set time as to when you put it in.  I usually do it once fish or live rock have been in the tank for at least a week.>  I have Chaetomorpha (very little about 1/4 cup) and razor Caulerpa (about a cup) in my quarantine tank that I'm waiting to put in the refugium.  Do I have to wait until the tank is cycled? <No, the algae will help with the cycling actually.> If not, how long should I leave the lights (standard 18" fluorescent) on for the macro algae? <I leave them on 24 hours a day but if you want to save on your electric bill leave them on opposite of the display tank.  Good luck MikeB>
Thanks in advance.
Ronald

AT Scrubbers and Nutrient Import/Export 8/13/04
Please excuse if this is a duplicate message. outlook is being bad.
<no worries... good to hear from you>
Hello to all the crew at WWM and an enormous thanks for all the
information that you provide!  The reading on the site has kept me busy late in the night and added fuel to a rekindling fire to be involved in this hobby that I have been gone from for several years.  
<'tis most excellent to hear>
Years ago I purchased an Algae Scrubber from MMFI for my then-current tank, though ended up having to get rid of the tank but kept my unused scrubber.  On the site it is stated that scrubbers "take out too much of some things and produce too much of others." I would like to know what these are and
what can be done to aid.  
<I frankly don't feel like commercial AT scrubbers help or hurt much at all... they are simply too small.>
Having perused the pages and BBS, it seems that in addition to removing phosphates and nitrates scrubbers also remove calcium and affect alkalinity.  
<true to a small extent... but so do our corals, and were not leaving them out of reef tanks ;) And even without a scrubber, you will still have to supplement minerals like Calcium. So, the point is moot IMO... do enjoy your scrubber if you like>
I intend on supplementing my scrubber with a mechanical/chemical filter using activated carbon which will be cleaned regularly, a protein skimmer which will be used as necessary,
<please do consider using a skimmer full-time! It is far more beneficial to water quality than you may know... and I can assure you it will export more nutrients than most algal scrubbers>
plenty of live rock, and daily small water changes (for what it's worth.)  
<excellent>
I am not anxious to get rid of my scrubber as I have already spent the money on it and it seems to me a viable filtration method.
<modest capability at best (just look at its surface area compared to the surface area of your display interior walls or live rock (which grow diatoms, algae, etc.) or even the sump interior. AT scrubbers are frankly overpriced and a poor value in my opinion. But $ aside, they still are a useful technology. Again... just not a good value for what you get in return>
Any advice for controlling nutrient export and maintaining water quality and proper useful supplement levels will be greatly appreciated.  
<be very systematic with your water changes to replenish trace elements... and be very systematic in your harvest of algae. These will go a long way towards success with AT scrubbers>
Once again thanks a bunch, and I look forward to your response.  
Justin
<best regards, Anthony>

- Algal Turf Scrubber -
Hi, I have a 75 gallon reef aquarium with a remora pro protein skimmer, and I hate it. The skimmer works fine, but is WAY to loud. And I don't like changing the cup every few days. <Ok.> So, while on a trip to inland aquatics, I viewed their filters, and their methods. I asked a worker how often they did water changes on a reef in the "little room" (I don't know what to call it), they said they had never done a water change, and the tank had been set up for many years. I understand all I have to do is clean or hose out the algae from the plastic mesh once a week. And I love the way the scrubber dumps the water in the tank like the real ocean like waves. I read an article at advanced aquarist I believe and it said the filters are inexpensive. I asked them, and they said they had one not assembled for $550. Is that inexpensive? <Depends on your budget.> I don't think so! <Then that's that.> Well I will probably be buying one within the next month or so if you think it is a good idea. What do you think? <I'm not a fan, quite honestly although your statements about the skimmer noise and cleaning lead me to believe you won't like the noise from the wave dumper and its associated maintenance very much either. Suggest you read up on these - there is more to read in Sprung/Delbeek Reef Aquarium vol 1, and Dynamic Aquaria by Adey/Loveland - Adey being the person who spearheaded this technique. I tend to lean on the side presented by Sprung/Delbeek that while these filters do work and work well, they tend to turn the water green which is less than appealing. Likewise, the system you saw at Inland Aquatics is a culture system and not necessarily what is ideal for individual tanks. I can't force you to "get used to" the noise your skimmer makes, but I do think you're better off the way you are now.> Thanks, Adam
<Cheers, J -- >

Algae Filtration...
This may not be something you may have an opinion on or care to, but I stumbled upon an aquarium equipment manufacturer found at <A href="http://www.eztank.com">www.EZtank.com</A>.   They claim that it is algae, not bacteria, that is nature's main river, lake, pond, and ocean filter. One would say well duh, plants do absorb some excess nutrients from the water, but with this system of filters, apparently it absorbs virtually all.  Their system seems to really make sense but it could also be just another gimmick (Though they have been in business for 15-20 years).  The website has quite a bit of reading but if you are like me , you probably will read anything aquarium related you can get your hands on!!  If you download the information package for free it really goes a little more in depth into their processes, equipment, and theories.   Just thought it you guys may find it interesting and maybe would have an opinion.  Thank you for all the hard work on WetWebMedia, the single best source for information on the net!! (I know Bob would disagree saying we should utilize multiple sources).
<Thanks for sharing your discovery. Yes algae filtration is a proven concept, and it has its advocates (Adey and Loveland in the saltwater arena, for example) and detractors. Algae "scrubbers" have been used in closed systems for some time, with good results. However, as you surmise, algae does not do it all. IMO, an algae "filter" is a good supplemental system, but you'd still want to employ some other chemical, biological, or mechanical filtration as well. One of the "knocks" against algal filtration in reef systems is that it can cause "discoloration" of the water. This can easily be removed with activated carbon (chemical filtration), and aggressive protein skimming can help remove excess organics from the water (mechanical filtration). I agree with the "natural" philosophy of reef keeping (and fish-keeping in general), but it's always nice to have multiple techniques to help out. Regards, Scott F>

In Need of Weed?
>I currently own a 20 gallon tank with an ecosystem hanging on the back with 5 pounds of "miracle mud"....
>>Ok.
>Here are the contents of the tank:
30 pounds live rock
clown fish
banded coral shrimp
10 hermit crabs
4 snails
I can't get Caulerpa to live in the ecosystem...it keeps dying..... is there not enough waste for it to survive on yet?  
>>I couldn't tell you that, as I don't know how long this has been set up.
>I want to start adding some reef contents such as mushrooms and maybe a xenia....but I
wanted to wait for the Caulerpa to live?
>>Honestly, I've never had a problem growing it.  You haven't mentioned lighting at all, and if you wish to keep other photosynthetic organisms, this is of utmost importance.
>My measurements seem to be ok.....I have only measured
ammonia
nitrate
nitrite
salinity
pH
>>And...??
>All of those are ok....
>>That tells me nothing, my friend.
>The tank is about 3 months old now and water looks great?
>>Ah, very new setup, you're not sure of how the water "looks"?  Looks can be deceiving, as I know of no one who can see nutrients, ammonia, etc., in the water just by looking at it.
>Why is the Caulerpa dying...isn't it basically a weed?  
>>It can be when its needs are met (light and nutrients).
>Does it feed strictly on the waste in the water?  
>>No.
>That is all I can think of....
>>I can't be of more help without knowing more about your setup, filtration, LIGHTING, test results, kit brand (more important than most folks think), LIGHTING.. did I mention lighting?  I grew MUCH C. taxifolia in my first reef using a homemade bank of mixed fluorescents.  It took a good deal of research to determine lumens and color temperature, though.  Sometimes, some folks just CAN'T get this stuff to grow for them, though, no matter how they try.  Marina     

Downstream refugium 10/7/03
I just completed adding a downstream refugium in my sump. I sectioned off a small area of my 24 inch sump. The refugium area is 12inch high by 6 inches long by 12 inches wide. It probably holds less a little under 5 gallons of water.
<still helpful. Aspire to 20-40% display tank in volume for future>
I added about 2 inched of crushed coral and will add 2 inches of crushed live rock as a substrate.
<very good for zooplankton production>
I am going to be using a 13watt PC light. My display tank is a 75 gal w 80lbs of LR. I would like to know what type of macroalgae I should add to this refugium that would do ok with this light.
<even if this refugium were not so small... you would still be restricted to a single species of macro for optimal health/vigor and utility. Seek Chaetomorpha IMO here to assist with plankton production and nutrient export>
I am a little scared about adding Caulerpas because of what I have reading on your web page.
<many scientific papers on the subject... I can share a couple dozen references on the toxicity of Caulerpa or you can search the Net abroad for references to Caulerpene and Caulerpenyne for starters>
What else could I add beside Turtle grass and Halimeda?
<neither are recommended here... Halimeda does less for nutrient export or plankton production... and Turtle grass is too large for this vessel>
Could you please give me a few ideas?
<other than Chaetomorpha... Gracilaria is an excellent choice. Ochtodes is fine too. All of these and more are detailed extensively in our new book Reef Invertebrates>
I should mention that I am really interested in keeping soft corals like Colts, Xenias and Cladiellas.
<if looking for the upright and branching Cladiella "colt" corals, know that they are not called Klyxum (2000 Alderslade)>
You guys have convinced me that a refugium is a better way to go than adding Kent's Phytoplex and Chormaplex. What Macroalgae should I use to benefit these types of corals. Thanks Ron
The Gracilaria may have some slight edge here for lending epiphytic matter to the Alcyoniids you intend to keep. Much to read/learn/explore... enjoy the journey! Anthony>

Macroalgae warfare 10/05/03
Hi Crew! I am discovering for myself the major downside of grape Caulerpa,
<indeed... it has been documented to be perhaps the most noxious of an already very noxious genus of algae>
which doesn't seem to be the threat of going sexual, especially since I pull out from my 'fuge a cup or so every few days.  
<correct... the threat of "going vegetative" is easily skirted by interrupting the 3-6 month life cycle by regular thinning>
It's a weed!  Some other algae species seem to survive (such as feather Caulerpa and sawgrass) but not thrive.  My Gracilaria (Ogo) didn't make it and my C. racemosa also couldn't compete.  The Chaetomorpha ball hasn't grown in over two months!  but I guess it's doing the job of removing nutrients, don't you think?
<ahhh... not growing but exporting nutrients? How do you figure? Sounds to me like you've made the mistake of mixing algae that too many folks do. They are very (chemically) competitive with each other. Energies used in warfare could instead be used for good vigor/growth. Please have the discipline to use only one algae species proper in your vegetable filter/refugium. Anthony>

Macroalgae and Grape Caulerpa II 10/6/03
By "doing the job" I meant the grape Caulerpa is doing the job.  It's growing like a weed, hence exporting nutrients.  
<true... but imparting many noxious compounds in the process that accumulate and harm or kill some fishes and corals over time>
If I had to pick one, I guess you would recommend Chaetomorpha, right?  but it's ugly.  
<anything but Caulerpa for most aquarists IMO>
The Caulerpas look nice.
<agreed... but eye of the beholder. If you are willing to make the necessary and labor-intensive concessions needed to keep this macro, you will do fine. Else, you may suffer from it in time like many folks do. Caulerpene, Caulerpenyne, etc ;) >
Also, what do I care if the algae are fighting, as long as they are growing?
<because none can excel optimally for wasting energies on warfare... and such allelopathy has been shown to kill desirable reef creatures mixed unnaturally with a preponderance of this algae. You really are not very well read on this genus of macros... please do help yourself with a delve into more data on the subject to keep it safely long-term. Best regards, Anthony>

RDP refugium and CO2
Hi, it's me again. I hope that everything is going well, sunny skies and all of that, it's cold as heck here.   I went ahead and set up the refugium last night, and I was re-reading the reply that you sent me and I was wondering...When you were talking about the reverse light cycle, I thought about something.  It will help the pH remain stable, true.  I was also thinking, "If the two were on a reverse light cycle, since plants become primary producers of co2 at night, would the main tank produce enough co2 to discontinue supplementation, and vice versa?  Or would I still need to do that?
<good question my friend, but it is one that cannot be answered here  by Yes or No. I/you have no idea what the net demand is on your tank from the bio mass. We cannot say that if met now that the growth in either vessel will not continue to support the process. This is simply something you must monitor in your specific aquarium. Is you display filled with two one inch corals... or fifty (follow, my friend). A good question, again... but not possible for me to answer from this end of the computer. Do enjoy experimenting with it though <G>! Best regards, Anthony>

Ecosystem
Can you give me some info on the Leng Sy-Ecosystem, i.e how to set it up and what equipment I would need? If you could send diagrams to help me understand it better I would be grateful.
<Please see the following:
http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mudfiltrfaqs.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mudfiltfaq2.htm>
Thank you, Janet
<You are welcome. -Steven Pro>

Caulerpa vs. Seagrass for Refugium & MM filter
Anthony,
<cheers, mate>
I was reading through "FAQs about Refugium IV" section and you stated:
"Syringodium manatee seagrass would be awesome here... many benefits to it as a refugium. Whatever you choose, though, PLEASE do not use Caulerpa... an awful thing to do to a coral system on a larger scale"
Can you explain this further? I want to understand why would Caulerpa be bad in a refugium? 
<yes... my pleasure. Caulerpa itself is not so bad, but rather easily mismanaged. For decades aquarists have enjoyed its benefits of great nutrient export with little trouble because we rarely did/could keep it in large masses (tangs, angels and other fishes eating it in check) and the lack of refugium applications. Now that refugiums have become popular, aquarists are keeping it in larger quantities and discovering the many pitfalls with it. The problem is that it is very labor intensive to maintain safely in large quantities. It must be harvested systematically like clockwork (!!!) and you should not cut branches (saps noxious elements and risks a disastrous sexual event of pollution)... instead each frond must be carefully hand picked and extracted to thin the colony. Caulerpa also contains some of the most noxious elements known that inhibit coral growth. They secrete serious discolorants into the water that require ozonation or weekly changes of carbon to maintain water clarity, and the risk of a sexual event (expelling all of the nutrients from growth en masses) can cause catastrophe in some systems. Other plants share similar negative qualities... but none so commonly and to the extent of Caulerpa. It is simply too risky in large quantities... BUT... I do enjoy and recommend it in small amounts. I'll publish a paper soon on the topic. Many experienced aquarists are discovering this dilemma with Caulerpa... I got some scientific references from Eric Borneman who is very much in agreement on the topic: ANYTHING but Caulerpa is better :) >
Also, I am setting up a 350g (96"x24"x36") reef tank in the spring with SPS as the primary inhabitants. 
<the your definitely do not want Caulerpa... shown to markedly inhibit the growth of stonies>
The plan was to use and EcoSystem mud filter that uses Caulerpa. 
<I see no significant advantage using Caulerpa here... although I do like the idea of you using a fishless refugium to generate natural plankton for your zooplankton feeding SPS (little phyto here)>
The EcoSystem site recommends Caulerpa but states Seagrass can be used also. Do you believe Caulerpa is bad in this setup and would you recommend Seagrass as an alternative? 
<definitely>
If so, what are the pros/cons?
<slower, safer and more manageable growth of seagrasses. Less noxious compounds exuded, a true plant that does not execute a sexual vegetative state/event under duress, more useful epiphytic material shed from the blades of the seagrasses... perhaps better support of copepods populations for it. Thalassia is a shorter seagrass species for refugia under 24">
Thanks as always.
<best regards, Anthony>
- Rob