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ATS guide part 1. Santa Monica Algal Turf Scrubbers -
02/04/19 Progress with <DIY> algal turf scrubber
5/18/12 Turf Scrubber vs. Refugium in Fish Only
Tank 10/14/11 "Santa Monica" and ATS
6/13/2011 Outdoor reef tank with large sump, algal scrubbers
f' 5/27/10 Can you be kind enough to find me Simon Trippick's
email address. ATS filter maint. 2/15/10 Re: Can you be kind enough to find me Simon
Trippick's email address, ATS op. 2/16/10 Algae Filtration 9/5/09 Algae Scrubber Question 4/30/09 Algae Scrubber FAQ's 12/25/08 Hi Bob and Crew, <Hello, Benjamin here.> It's exciting that I'm writing my first letter to you, since WWM was my first place of learning for a whole year or so. I'm writing now because I have my first bit of information that might be of use to your readers. You have received several questions from readers about building Algae Scrubbers (or "Algae Turf Scrubbers", ATS). I spent the last 1.5 years studying just filtration, and was fortunate to be asked to mod an algae scrubber forum, where I set up the first Algae Scrubber FAQ. So, if I may, here is a link to the FAQ which is the result of thousands of reader inputs, hundreds of scrubber builds by these readers, and several scrubbers that I've built and am currently running: http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68 Modern scrubbers (meaning, starting this year) fortunately have almost none of the shortcomings of scrubbers built previously. Just about every perceived drawback has been corrected, usually with just a small change in operation. Anyways, feel free to link to or post the FAQ. And I'd be happy to answer any questions there might be. <I'll let Bob handle the link at such...see what he and others have to weigh in here. I, for one, have followed both the old studies and some of your recent work with great interest....have a prototype of a bucket system running behind me at the moment...week 3. Thank you for your concise, scientific approach to this new material!> Regards and Happy Holidays, <The same!> Santa Monica <Benjamin> Algae Scrubber FAQ's, Forum 12/25/08 Hi Bob and Crew, <Bryan> It's exciting that I'm writing my first letter to you, since WWM was my first place of learning for a whole year or so. I'm writing now because I have my first bit of information that might be of use to your readers. <I thank you> You have received several questions from readers about building Algae Scrubbers (or "Algae Turf Scrubbers", ATS). I spent the last 1.5 years studying just filtration, and was fortunate to be asked to mod an algae scrubber forum, where I set up the first Algae Scrubber FAQ. So, if I may, here is a link to the FAQ which is the result of thousands of reader inputs, hundreds of scrubber builds by these readers, and several scrubbers that I've built and am currently running: http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=68 <I see... a forum dedicated to their discussion: "Algae Scrubbers Everything you need to know about building your own Algal Turf Scrubber. Reduce/remove nitrate and phosphate and reduce water changes, for marine and fresh water fish tanks."> Modern scrubbers (meaning, starting this year) fortunately have almost none of the shortcomings of scrubbers built previously. Just about every perceived drawback has been corrected, usually with just a small change in operation. Anyways, feel free to link to or post the FAQ. And I'd be happy to answer any questions there might be. <Again, much appreciated> Regards and Happy Holidays, Santa Monica <Thank you for your efforts. Bob Fenner> Thinking about changing my filter methods... Shark sys., ATS... 7/12/08 I have searched your web site and have done numerous goggle searches only to be more confused. I have a 180 gallon tank with a wet-dry filter and a euro-reef protein skimmer that has been running a little over two years. My skimmer goes through cycles where it produces lots of skimmate and times when it produces none. <Not atypical> My ammonia and nitrite levels are at zero almost constantly however my nitrates are constantly out of control. <Numbers please> I have a fish only tank with large predator fish, a bamboo shark, <...!> lion fish, two damsels, and a wrasse. I have about a 120 lbs. of live rock which recently has lost lots of its coralline algae. I am considering adding either a algae turf scrubber, or a refugium or both to possibly add to or total replace my wet-dry. <Good idea> I like the idea of not have to do water changes all the time. But I have also read some negative things about the algae turf scrubber system. <Some makes, models have inherent flaws, difficulties... Do give Morgan Lidster/Inland Aquatics a call, email...> I would just like your opinion of how to provide the best filtration for my tank. My shark is very important to me and I have dedicated a large amount of my time and wallet to ensure that he gets the best so far he seems unaffected by the high nitrates but I do not want to wait till be shows signs of stress. <Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/sharksystems.htm and the series of FAQs above in this cat.> I do perform water changes but I think that a tank should be able to remain somewhat more stable then mine tends to be. Any help would be appreciated. I also have been reading about the Ecosystem refugium what is your opinion on these. <Very nice units, method...> Thank-you for your time. A-Garrett Arnold <Bob Fenner> Re: Thinking about changing my filter methods.... Shark sys., ATS... 7/12/08 My nitrates tend to be around 100ppm in between water changes. <Mmm, too much> I am not against doing regular maintenance on any means, actually tends to be some of the fun for me, however I am worried about the fluctuations in the nitrates on my fish. <Not so much the fluctuations, but getting back, staying at a lower concentration> My finance and I are going to be getting married in about 6 months and we would like to put a bigger tank in our new house. We are looking at a 400-600 gallon. However, I'm just worried that If I can't keep a 180 in near pristine conditions how will I fair with more water volume. <Incongruous comparisons... In so much that you are apparently aware of sources, consequences, means to control> I already struggle to make enough water to do adequate water changes. <Not the water changes that are at fault or salvation here> I will give the Inland Aquatic guy a call. Do you think I would benefit from using both a ATS and a refugium? <Very likely so> Thanks for your response -Garrett <Read: http://wetwebmedia.com/nitratesmar.htm and the linked files above. BobF> A source for Algal Turf Scrubber Equipment 9/27/06 Hello, <Hi there> I have spent a number of hours searching the web for a source of ATS equipment for a friend, and have been unable to find anything of value. I currently use an MMFI Algae Scrubber (along with GAC and vigorous protein skimming), but I don't consider MMFI a viable source anymore. I understand that feelings are mixed on ATS, but consider them useable as part of a comprehensive filtration system. Could one of you please let me know where my friend could by a commercially built ATS? <Mmm, yes. Contact Morgan Lidster at Inland Aquatics: http://www.inlandaquatics.com/> I enjoy your website, and appreciate the effort that you put into it. By the way Bob, that "Edge you mah cate yo'self." to Lee was especially funny, if a bit cryptic for him. It took a few minutes to translate, as I was laughing pretty well when he spelled it out to me. I hope you can pardon his rudeness, he was pretty much at wit's end during that fiasco, and has his aquarium in good shape at present. <No worries> Best wishes, and thanks in advance for your time even if you can't help me! Russ Schultz <Cheers, Bob Fenner> Looking to install Sump Using Overflow Box Question... actually RMF's take on ATS "algal scrubbers" 2/1/06 Hello and Thanks in advance if you can help me. <What if we can't but try real hard? Partial credit?> I currently run a 90 gal reef tank and am looking for better results out of it. As of right now, my main source of filtration is an hang on tank ATS (algae turf scrubber) I also use a small Protein skimmer (Aqua C remora) and canister filter to help out with particulates. The best my tank looked was when it was about a year old. Very beautiful, everything was thriving. But it has been on a slow decline ever since (tank is now about three years old) <Typical... with these "scrubbers"> I have noted poor growth and colour in most SPS corals ( only four colonies have really done well) I have lost several SPS corals regardless of how much flow they received. Water tests indicate perfect levels (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate, pH, Ca, Alk salinity etc.) <More to the world...> But I believe it is a result of the ATS either leaching into the water (water has developed yellow tinge) or not effectively pulling everything necessary out of the water. Or both. <Yes... common, inevitable...> The AquaC skimmer does pull out dark skimmate on a daily basis but I believe it is doing very little considering the volume of water compared to size of skimmer. Long story short... I feel I am relying on Scrubber too much and would like to include a larger skimmer into my scheme of things. I am confident that I would see better results.( don't get me wrong...lots of things in the tank are growing beautifully...but room for improvement <Not the skimmer that is lacking or can improve here> So I'm looking to keep the ATS for the benefits of the reverse daylight pH effect and for it's surge which I also like. But I would like to remove the AquaC skimmer and replace it with a CPR overflow box to siphon water from tank into sump so I could install larger skimmer and eventually calcium reactor ( I'm about done with the 2 part stuff,) <The reactor would help, and the addition of a sump/refugium> Could this be done considering that I have a fluctuating water level due to the twice a minute surge of water from the Scrubber? <Not easily, no... unless the scrubber was rigged to a constant volume area of the tank or sump> Would the water level drop below the Overflow and lose siphon? <Possibly... depending on how this was all arranged> I am planning to use the airlift attachment pump but did not know if this was possible or too risky. <Is> In case you are not familiar with a HOT scrubber....it works like this. A dedicated pump for the ATS sits inside a surface skimming box. The pump draws water from the aquarium to a tray which fills up ( about 1.5 gallons ) and then dumps into one side of the aquarium. <Am very familiar> So the water level drops about an little over an inch in between dumps. Would this compromise the overflow box? <Yes... can't be used here unless the above-mentioned modification is made> I was looking to get a overflow that did 600gph and a return pump Mag Drive 700gph ( 500 gph at three feet ) Also, the skimmers I was considering were: ASM GX2 approx $240 MRC MR1 approx $300 or AQUA C EV120 approx $350 any suggestions? Thanks again. -JOSH <I would categorically abandon the algal scrubber... these units are poorly devised, maintenance headaches... responsible for the poor health and outright death of many marines... and look to other filtration technology. Bob Fenner> AT Scrubbers and Nutrient Import/Export 8/13/04 Please excuse if this is a duplicate message. outlook is being bad. <no worries... good to hear from you> Hello to all the crew at WWM and an enormous thanks for all the information that you provide! The reading on the site has kept me busy late in the night and added fuel to a rekindling fire to be involved in this hobby that I have been gone from for several years. <'tis most excellent to hear> Years ago I purchased an Algae Scrubber from MMFI for my then-current tank, though ended up having to get rid of the tank but kept my unused scrubber. On the site it is stated that scrubbers "take out too much of some things and produce too much of others." I would like to know what these are and what can be done to aid. <I frankly don't feel like commercial AT scrubbers help or hurt much at all... they are simply too small.> Having perused the pages and BBS, it seems that in addition to removing phosphates and nitrates scrubbers also remove calcium and affect alkalinity. <true to a small extent... but so do our corals, and were not leaving them out of reef tanks ;) And even without a scrubber, you will still have to supplement minerals like Calcium. So, the point is moot IMO... do enjoy your scrubber if you like> I intend on supplementing my scrubber with a mechanical/chemical filter using activated carbon which will be cleaned regularly, a protein skimmer which will be used as necessary, <please do consider using a skimmer full-time! It is far more beneficial to water quality than you may know... and I can assure you it will export more nutrients than most algal scrubbers> plenty of live rock, and daily small water changes (for what it's worth.) <excellent> I am not anxious to get rid of my scrubber as I have already spent the money on it and it seems to me a viable filtration method. <modest capability at best (just look at its surface area compared to the surface area of your display interior walls or live rock (which grow diatoms, algae, etc.) or even the sump interior. AT scrubbers are frankly overpriced and a poor value in my opinion. But $ aside, they still are a useful technology. Again... just not a good value for what you get in return> Any advice for controlling nutrient export and maintaining water quality and proper useful supplement levels will be greatly appreciated. <be very systematic with your water changes to replenish trace elements... and be very systematic in your harvest of algae. These will go a long way towards success with AT scrubbers> Once again thanks a bunch, and I look forward to your response. Justin <best regards, Anthony> - Algal Turf Scrubber - Hi, I have a 75 gallon reef aquarium with a remora pro protein skimmer, and I hate it. The skimmer works fine, but is WAY to loud. And I don't like changing the cup every few days. <Ok.> So, while on a trip to inland aquatics, I viewed their filters, and their methods. I asked a worker how often they did water changes on a reef in the "little room" (I don't know what to call it), they said they had never done a water change, and the tank had been set up for many years. I understand all I have to do is clean or hose out the algae from the plastic mesh once a week. And I love the way the scrubber dumps the water in the tank like the real ocean like waves. I read an article at advanced aquarist I believe and it said the filters are inexpensive. I asked them, and they said they had one not assembled for $550. Is that inexpensive? <Depends on your budget.> I don't think so! <Then that's that.> Well I will probably be buying one within the next month or so if you think it is a good idea. What do you think? <I'm not a fan, quite honestly although your statements about the skimmer noise and cleaning lead me to believe you won't like the noise from the wave dumper and its associated maintenance very much either. Suggest you read up on these - there is more to read in Sprung/Delbeek Reef Aquarium vol. 1, and Dynamic Aquaria by Adey/Loveland - Adey being the person who spearheaded this technique. I tend to lean on the side presented by Sprung/Delbeek that while these filters do work and work well, they tend to turn the water green which is less than appealing. Likewise, the system you saw at Inland Aquatics is a culture system and not necessarily what is ideal for individual tanks. I can't force you to "get used to" the noise your skimmer makes, but I do think you're better off the way you are now.> Thanks, Adam <Cheers, J -- > - Bubbles and Dump Buckets - I've been reading your site, and in great detail. There's so much useful stuff here, it will probably take me months to go through it all! Anyway, another question for the crew! I had been toying with a small turf scrubber for a reef tank (strictly supplemental to a skimmer/refugium setup), and had been contemplating having the surge fall into a far end of the tank through a confined open air sheet. Splash out wouldn't happen, but... I've now been reading through the part of your site where people go on and on about bubbles, and... Am I to take it that my idea for helping oxygenate the tank (open air fall) was maybe not such a good idea? <In the case of a dump bucket system, you don't have anything to fear from micro bubbles.> Anyway, I'm having second thoughts about the turf scrubber, but I still want some kind of surge device, ala Carlson. Should it return under the water, instead of splashing into it? <Splashing is just fine. In my opinion, the whole micro bubble issue is overblown - it is a genuine problem and does occur, just not as often as some folks make out, so that a large portion of the posts you may have read are really about the aesthetic issues of air in the water and the perceived problem of micro bubbles rather than an actual problem.> I'd seen net photos of some turf scrubbers that had some very heavy surges. They appeared bubbly. I was simply assuming that bubbly was okay. No, eh? <Bubbly in this case is fine.> Joe p.s. I'm okay with the noise. :) <Cheers, J -- > Problem with MMFI algae scrubbers Hello! I thought I'd warn anyone buying a Algae Scrubber From MMFI Aquaricare. I bought a filtering system from Mark A. Reinke. Owner of the company. After I paid off my filtering system in December, I called, and asked Mark when he would send me my system. He said in March. I asked him why it would take so long to get my system. He said there were so many orders, that it would take that long to send it. Well, the very next month, the website is still on the web, but is under construction, and is updated often. But you can't reach him by the website, phone, or fax. I went to the Denver BBB, and he has five complaints against him this year, for not sending people their systems, or not replacing leaking and faulty algae scrubbers. I've contacted a legal aide service to help me get my money returned to me. Almost five hundred dollars. So buyers beware! < Thanks for the information, we'll pass this on. > Deborah Mitchell < Blundell > EZ algae filter system? <Hello Acer> Hi - I have been reading you site a lot. Have you ever heard of a company called EZtank? they are saying that you only need an algae scrubber unit and no protein or wet/dry do you have an opinions on this type of filter and what is it.< It probably is very similar to the Ecosystem which has been around for a while. I've seen the Ecosystem in action and it definitely keeps the nuisance algae from growing in the display tank.>Their web site is difficult to navigate and I cannot figure out the actual makings of the product. I am setting up a 75 reef with 2 Jebo 48" lights=460 watts of PC lighting. Have live rock and sand from existing 55 gallon salt -fish only setup. <The Ecosystem is basically a 10 gallon tank with baffles and the bottom media is "Miracle Mud" or something like that. It comes with a PC mini hood. Caulerpa or some type of higher algae is required for the system to work. You might want to go to www.premiumaquatics.com. They have it and also a link to the Ecosystem company. I've never heard of EZtank yet.> ?? on the rest of setup. If the algae scrubber does what they say then I really only need a sump/refugium for an isolation area and to grow plant food- no actual filtration.<That is the filtration. James (Salty Dog)> I love your site, thanks for the help, Acer Algae scrubbers Robert I have had an on going fight with problem algae for about 3-4 months now. I have a 600 ltr tank with trickle filter, protein skimmer, MH lighting 10000k, lots of live rock, phos guard, no plenum, with nitrite 0, nitrate 5, ph 8.3. The algae started all of a sudden when the tank was about 11 months old (skimmer not working properly, MH old and changed colour, all ok recently), Question would you recommend using a algae scrubber to reduce problem algae in the tank or perhaps any other thoughts, as I'm lost to the problem, I have recently been changing water with the real stuff about 20% monthly, I had been until then using artificial. Thanks for your help Robert Haywood (Queensland Australia) <Please do read over the "Algae Control" and Algal Group survey pieces, FAQs stored on the site: www.WetWebMedia.com... I would use live macro-algae, perhaps add a sump/plenum here... maybe some purposeful algae eating animals (all detailed on the WWM site), and leave your system to slowly re-center itself. You appear to otherwise have a good grasp of what is going on. Bob Fenner> How to set up a coral tank I have not had the opportunity to visit the Smithsonian to see this tank, though I had heard it has had its problems (I am, however, a big fan of the Algal Turf scrubbers from Inland Aquatics that are based on Adey's designs). Of the public aquariums I have visited though, none have had the sort of wonderfully healthy, thriving reef systems that can often be found in the homes of dedicated hobbyists. <Do know these scrubbers very well, and am of the decided opinion they do/can work... but akin to U.S. consumers and older sports cars, they're decidedly not "the market" for the west due to vagaries of simple maintenance...>There is an unfortunate gap between the hobbyists (many of whom have great skill but often don't speak the scientists lingo or have the technical knowledge or understanding of the scientific method the scientists have) and scientists. I have seen both sides, as I have my feet firmly planted in both realms.<Surprisingly (to me), I have made my living for decades by straddling this same transparent chasm... with a third spot thrown in which is the industry/business side of ornamental aquatics... And have rarely met anyone else who states as you do...> I have sometimes been shocked by how inept some scientists I have known have been in the basic husbandry of the organisms they were working with (not just corals, but fish and plants as well...my main area of training is actually in plant and insect ecology), and dismayed by the lack of respect they often have for hobbyists who often have incredible finesse with (and tremendous natural history knowledge of) the same groups of organisms. <I concur... a great shame and loss to both parties> Just out of curiosity, what realms of endeavor regarding corals and reefs do you walk in? Are you a hobbyist, scientist, diver, marine livestock dealer, or ...???? (or possibly several of the above?). I recognize your name as someone active on either the Coral List or the ReefKeepers list (or both?), but I don't recall what your connections with corals are. <An industry/business facilitator by practice, "content provider by income", consultant a few times a year to the public and private sides of livestock, drygoods and "habitat" (mechanicals and controllers) aspects of the interest. Mainly I write, make photographs (and video for many years, but never sold a second), and sell same in the print, electronic worlds. Much of my efforts can be perused on the site: Home Page . I do call many of the "A" players in the marine livestock trades friends, and do write for dive, in-flight periodicals... even the occasional underwater natural history essay... And give freely of my image work to the ASIH, FishBase... where you might have seen my name mentioned.> Thanks, by the way, for your e-mail....I wasn't quite sure how my comments would be received by coral-list members, some of whom I fear might take offense to my comments! <To heck with them and me for that matter should any object to an honest person's exhortations. Many of the NOAA listserv people have an all-too secular agenda here.... To keep their funding, jobs... Express yourself> Bill <Be chatting my friend. Kia orana (Cook Maori for "Life to you"), Bob Fenner> I would like your opinion on using an Algae Turf Scrubber in a reef > aquarium. I have done quite a bit of research on ATS systems and am considering setting up a 200g tank with an ATS. It sounds like a great idea, but I don't know... > Thanks, Chad Headlee >> Am not a big fan of these stock units as stand alone filters... without chemical filtrant intervention I have found that they generally do not produce high water quality... However, in the hands of an intelligent, diligent operator, this is a very useful primary filtration mode. Bob Fenner AT Scrubbers and the like???? Bob, I am wondering if you have any experience with algal turf scrubbers (AT scrubber), algae filters or any type of filtering system utilizing algae? I have read some good things about these various systems. However, it is always from the makers of such systems and I have yet to find someone using one. Also, I have a large lawnmower blenny that has pretty much exhausted all of the natural growth on my live rock. I am hoping that there is something else I can feed him or maybe "smear" on the rocks for him to forage for. I thoroughly enjoy him but if he begins to lose weight I will have to find a better home for him. Thanks for the help, Brad >> Am familiar with algal turf scrubbers, commercially and from a science/history point of view.... Saw some of the early work of (all places) the necropolis of Natural History Museums, the Smithsonian... through their development in the seventies, install of the dismal (yes, a failure IMO... many, many dead, dying organisms...) "main tank" in 1981... Am not a big fan of these systems commercially... they partially work to drive the mechanisms of filtration in the claims... but many by-products of this "driving" are detrimental... not just the unsightly color of water that is produced... that the hobbyist must address: chemically filter, massive water change-out... or suffer poor livestock growth, health consequently. Like the use of skimmers and other technology, algal filters have their upsides and downsides... They "take out too much" of somethings, and "produce too much of others"... Are they "worth it" for hobbyist use? IMO, no. But there are many people who disagree, and a few institutions who have installed and fight with these sorts of approaches continuously. Bob Fenner |
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