What looks like the crypt but is not?      10/3/19
Good day everyone,
Love this sight, always have, you all do a splendid job here.
<Ah, thank you for your kind, encouraging words>
My heart was on the floor this morning when I saw my purple tang and regal tang covered in what appears to be Cryptocaryon irritans at first glance but is clearly different on a more closer inspection.
<Mmm; well, there are other parasites, even "just congealed body mucus" that may appear as such. The only definitive means of telling what is what is to sample, examine with a microscope; as gone over on WWM and most fish disease tomes>
210 gallon tank FWLR, stocked with angels and tangs.
Ammonia 0 of course
Nitrite 0, nitrate 12, phosphate 0.2
We run carbon, GFO, employ NOPOX and change our socks every other day. This tank was established from zero-the long hard way of bleached rocks and new equipment with a 2 month cycle.
We quarantine each fish as we have been rung through twice before.
<Hard to exclude the principal pathogens, but it reads that you've done your best to>
We did just add 4 new fish in the span of 3 months, all quarantined.
My question is what disease is similar looking to ich? And what can we do about it?
<I WOULD sample and examine as stated; in the meanwhile (ASAP) likely drop (slowly, a few hundredths per day) specific gravity... begin reading re your options (copper, anti-malarials...) on WWM:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm
and the linked files above>
Many thanks,
Evelyn
<Do please keep me/us informed of continuing developments, your actions, thoughts. Bob Fenner>
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?        10/4/19
Dear Mr. Fenner,
<Evelyn>
What an honor to receive an email from you having had read SO many of your posts during research and hard times.
<Ahh!>
I failed to mention that we have been ich free for about 1 1/2 years, I am quite sure the we nuked the horrendous, dreadful mofo of a parasite...(throat clear)...
<Ah yes... very hard to eliminate, exclude from captive systems>
A skin smear is near impossible. And the only fish vet in the surrounding area will not come to the house though I offered extra payment.
<Easy enough to do by oneself; really>
The last time we went through this I ordered from Fishman Chemicals $350 worth of “pure” CP from America to Canada. It was a disaster. It was not effective and cost me the lives of my beloved fish. I have used CP before that a courteous and sympathetic LFS guy gave to me as a favor and it did wonders. But that is not available any longer, he may have got in trouble for giving it to me. I called every pharmacy in town, I couldn’t get it except from Fishman. We all paid a heavy price with lives and monetarily.
I think I will start with Cupramine, just dose the whole tank. Thoughts??
<A worthy product... will state for others/browsers; WITH daily monitoring, testing for free copper presence, cessation of chemical filtrant use, possibly turning down, off skimming or running on a punctuated basis (to retain more copper)>
Does the skimmer matter?
<Oh, yes>
Nopox with Cupramine? Does anyone have experience??
<In looking for the MSDS of this Red Sea product, I found this: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/carbon-dosing-and-or-macroalgae-right-for-me.426442/
I suspect the totality of the ingredients include water and No3-po4-X, it has acetic acid, ethanol, and methanol. I would hold off (not use) this or other treatments during the Cupramine administration.
Bob Fenner>

Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?        10/4/19
Many thanks Mr. Fenner,
<Ms. Monroy>
I shall indeed keep you posted. Ever thank you for your hasty reply to me.
<Ah, I thank you. BobF>
Kind Regards,
Evelyn
Re: What looks like the crypt but is not?        10/4/19
Ummm, even if a skin smear is possible and it shows what parasite it is, would the treatment still be Cupramine? If not copper then what?!
<I am (yes, olde) still a huge fan of (appropriate) use of copper/compounds. Have used actually hundreds of gallons (by four one-gallon packs) over decades time. VERY effective used correctly. B>

White barred boxfish with oodinium      8/31/16 Hi Crew, <Cher> We have 2 white barred boxfish that have been fine for the past few months and last week broke out severely with white spots (more like icing sugar than anything) all over their bodies. <I see this in your accompanying pic> We did freshwater dips which helped someone what but not a lot and moved them into a separate quarantine tank where we treated them with Formalin for 24 hours. <Mmm; very toxic. Better to use this biocide in dips/baths only> The boxfish live at 67 degrees. <I'd keep much lower; like the mid-50's F> Today, although they are better, they are no where near good. This is a photo of them this morning after formalin. Am looking for advice on next steps: Here are my questions: From the appearance in the photos, does this look like oodinium (or related parasite)? <Almost assuredly Cryptocaryon... can be easily checked w/ sampling, microscope exam. IF Velvet they'd be dead> As you can see the larger one has lost a lot of colour, which started happening about 3 weeks ago. I believe that may have been the onset of the outbreak but the cold water suppressed the advancing parasite. <Yes; all the more reason to lower it still> Would hyposalinity be effective for treating these cold water fish? <Can help; rarely effects a cure> Should we drop the temperature to change the progress of the disease? <Ah yes> We are picking up some Chloroquine Phosphate, but will not have it until Thursday. How do we make it until then? <IF you lower temp.; likely so> Should the dosage of the CP be adjusted because of the water temp? <No> Would you recommend something else? (No, I have no access to a cold water cleaner fish, but wondering if a tropical cleaner fish would acclimate down to 67 degrees) <Labroides et al. common cleaners; no> Thanking you in advance, and will be in your lecture at MACNA in a couple weeks! <A good. See you then! Bob Fenner> Cheryl

Re: White barred boxfish with oodinium      8/31/16 Thanks Crew, <Cher bear> Totally appreciate the comments. I am getting biopsy on Friday. <Hotay> In your experience, are these fish beyond recovery? <Mmm? No; genus Aracana are actually quite tough> What would help them in addition to the directions discussed. Vitamins? Omega Fatty Acids? <In foods, added to water... to some extent? Increasing RedOx, much more so... a myriad of "things" that might improve water quality, stability, boost immunity.... BobF> UV filter (which we keep on all our tanks). It is turned off right now for medications. Cheryl

Sick Purple Tang      2/12/14 Hello, <Jackie> I have spent multiple days searching the web looking for some image that would answer my question, however, I have been unable to diagnose my fish with any degree of certainty. <Looks like this Xanthurum has Cryptocaryon or Brooklynellosis; you don't see the SOP on WWM for sampling, looking under a 'scope to identify such Protozoans?>  I have had this purple tang, Kalinda, for about four months now. She lives in a 150 gallon FOWLR system and she has been a great fish, very lively, great eater, and kind to her tank mates. A few weeks ago I decided to rearrange the rocks in the tank and take out some faux sea grass that the more timid fish liked, but that I could no longer handle looking at with all of the growth on it. After doing this, I noticed that my tang had a few white spots on her. I figured it was Ich, so I let her be and decided not to stress her out and see if she could fight it off (I will add that before I added her to this tank, my regal tang whom I had had for 8 years died in the system. The regal became ill, had white on his body, refused to eat, pretty much hung out at the bottom of the tank, and did show some signs of labored breathing. <All classical symptoms> Even with fresh water dips and copper, <... have you searched, read on WWM re the use of Quinine?>  I could not get this poor regal to recover. I figured that this might be caused by his age, but, after the outbreak I just went through, I am questioning that). After a few days, the white spots on my purple did not go away, the coverage on her didn't really look like Ich, and she stopped eating. At this point, I pulled her from the system, gave her a fresh water dip, and placed her in a hospital tank with Cupramine. I sat up with her overnight (may sound weird, but I really like my fish) and she did not show any signs of improvement and her berating became very labored. I did not think she was going to make it to morning and as I sat up all night, I continued researching and considered that she might have velvet or Brooklynella. However, looking at her and looking at the images online, I couldn't tell. She did make it through the night, but spent the night dipping to the bottom and hovering at the top for air and she seemed to be getting worse. I debated on whether or not to continue copper (for Ich or velvet) or switch to Quick Cure in case it was Brooklynella. Because my regal did not recover with copper and because my purple seemed to be getting worse, I set up a tank with Quick Cure and Stress Coat and transferred her. By the next day, she had most of her color back and her breathing was improved but she refused to eat. By the second day, she was breathing normally and she went to town on seaweed and her frozen food! It has now been five days since the crisis and she has all of her color back, her fins are healing, and she is swimming all over and eating like crazy. So now my questions: 1) Based on the attached images, what do you think attacked her? 2) The Quick Cure said to treat the fish for three days. <Either this or dips/baths in just the Formalin component> I did this and I am now running carbon and Purigen through her filter. I am also doing daily water changes and have lowered the salinity in her hospital tank. Do you think I should put her through another treatment of Quick Cure at the two week mark (or four week mark - I am thinking about the life cycle of the parasite). 3) Should I treat her with any antibiotics (her tail fin did become frayed on the back edge)? <Just the handling, copper and formalin exposure... I would not add to the med.s> Finally, I am not sure what introduced this problem into the tank. I did place three small rocks in the refugium before the regal became ill. These were dry rocks, originally from the ocean, they sat out in the sun for some time and then I soaked them in fresh water. I also added an Allardi clown to my tank at some point. <A ready source of/for the Brook> I don't remember if the clown came before or after my Regal became ill but he had been in quarantine for over a month and I didn't see any signs of illness. In any case, I removed all fish from the 150 and I now have them in quarantine tanks (there are a lot of tanks in one room right now). I plan on allowing the tank to go fallow for 2 months - is this a good plan? Is 6 weeks enough? I don't want to stress the fish out for any longer than I have to, but whatever this killer is needs to die. Thank you in advance for your help! Jackie Gill 180 Bow Front Reef (SPS, LPS, Softies); 4 AI Hydra LED; 2 Vortech MP40; Reef Octopus POV DC2 (downright sexy!); 36" Trigger Ruby Sump/Refugium; Apex Standard Control System. // 150 FOWLR, 2 Kessil Sky Blue LED, 3 Tunze Nanostreams, 36" Trigger Crystal Sump/Refugium; Apex Light Control System. <... As the combo. product WITH Formalin seemed to remove the symptoms, I would read re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/brookyescuref.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: Ich or Velvet?    11/18/13 WWM, Thanks for all your help. I have all fish in QT… and Kole tang died, one Chromis died… and it now looks as if the ocellaris are on their way out. I have been treating with Cupramine for 5 days now (and testing copper levels).  Began to see an improvement, however this morning the clowns don’t look so good. I have attached a pic of the female clown.  Could you help me in identifying the diseases/parasite? <See WWM re... do you have a microscope?> I though it was crypto, but now I think velvet.  Shouldn’t Cupramine have helped? <.... IF velvet all would likely be dead. Looks symptomatically like Cryptocaryon in this pic. Cupramine at proper levels should have helped. See WWM re this as well. Too much to re-re-re-state, esp. from an airport terminal. Bob Fenner> Thanks again, Matt K

Ich or Velvet?     11/10/13 I have a Kole tang that suddenly is covered in a velvety substance. I’m assuming it’s marine velvet… but I also thought it could be marine Ich. Could you confirm which disease it is for me? <.... doesn't look like either of these Protozoans to me... Something "more sinister", like poor water quality issue, perhaps stinging... What else is in this system? What additives, supplements et al. are you pouring in? Bob Fenner> And I believe this guy is probably <sic> to far gone. Friday he seemed fine… today (Sunday) he looks terrible. Thank you for your help. Matt Kasperski Unfortunately, this is the best pic I can get.  It does appear more velvety than sprinkled with ‘salt or sugar’. I’ve probably just answered my question.  But I thank you for your time.

Re: Ich or Velvet?     11/10/13 It’s a 6 month old system… (75 gallon). Other fish are 2 ocellaris clowns, 3 Chromis, 1 melanurus wrasse. Also 2 Birdsnest corals and a Montipora, cleaner shrimp… assorted snails. <All these should be okay> I moved from VA to TX back in June…  The system was set up immediately in June and was ‘seeded’ with a few pieces of live rock from my old (4 year running) system. I thought I had Ich in this new setup (even though all fish were quarantined for 6 weeks in a smaller tank).  I have been treating with ‘Kick Ich’ <... here's the problem. Ala pepper sauce. You've been scammed>  for two weeks… (I know, it probably doesn’t work but I was desperate). Was performing 25% water changes twice a week before a new dose of Kick Ich was added. Aside from adding the Kick-Ich, I have added buffer (sodium carbonate) occasionally to combat low Alk.  Regular water changes are performed every two weeks and I would have assumed water quality was ok. All the fish look a little ‘off’ today but the Kole tang looked the worst. All are in hospital tank now… and I was wondering what would be the best course of treatment. OH… and how long should I leave the DT fallow?  8 weeks? <... posted on WWM... I'd look into quinine cpd.s> I have attached a better pic of the Kole tang in the hospital tank. <... poisoned by the scam product. Search, read re this on WWM as well. BobF>

Marine Ichy Possibilities     9/17/13 Dear Crew,  <Nick> Possible Marine Ich problems.  When I got into fish keeping(freshwater) three years ago, you helped me beat Ich.  Thank you!  Now, a year into saltwater fish keeping, I might have another Ich fight.  I have read up on how to beat it, but I have one reasonable question and one that might be ridiculous.  For two days I’ve seen what looks like one singular Ich spot on my Royal Gramma. <Looks like are the operative words here; highly unlikely this single spot IS Ich; instead an accumulation of body mucus from some sort of irritation; perhaps a run-in with a hard object>  I’ve had the fish for seven weeks with two week quarantine.  The other fish are 2 Ocellaris Clowns & 1 Blue Damsel.  When should I start the Ich treatment?  Is one spot enough to go for it, or should I wait till it is more obvious?  <I would wait> Getting all the fish out is going to require a teardown of all the live rock, and there is always a risk of fish injury.  Second question; Would I be crazy to go buy a cleaner shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis) and put it directly into the main tank (skipping qt) in hopes that it will eat the first few Ich and push the balance in the fish’s favor? <Not crazy; again, I would do this as well>   Water parameters are all good except my phosphate is between .25 and .5 ppm.  <And this is no big deal of and by itself> I await your advice.  Thanks again.  Sincerely,  Nick <Cheers, Bob Fenner> Re: Marine Ichy Possibilities      9/26/13 <Nick... your email got kicked out of our sys. for too-large file size... no sense sending six megs of poorly resolved mess... Crop, re-size ahead> Bob, Thank you so much for the last quick response.  I have an update and would like additional advice please.  I do not think the condition is Amyloodinium, but it still might be Cryptocaryon because of the larger spots. <May be... but can only tell... Have we been over this?>  I've attached some pictures for you to take a look at.  I'll start a little closer to the beginning with this fish.  I bought the Royal Gramma two months ago.  I quarantined for two weeks.  It seemed very healthy except it had some splotches of slight discoloration on top.  It was faint and what I looked up online made me think it was maybe a trauma on the voyage or a past scrape, and not an ailment. <Agree>  I put it in my display tank.  Everything was fine until I emailed you the last time.  The RG had a white spot on it that it flashed off within ten seconds of me seeing it.  I thought maybe it was sand.  The next day I saw a smaller white spot on it's side.  On the 4th day the spot disappeared.  Four days later I see one spot in a different location.  The 2nd day after that the spot is gone.  The next day there is one spot on my Blue Damsel.  It is still on there today for two days.  The RG has always had a few tiny splotches, but it is now a little bit more so.  On the top it has a little less color and a few places on the side are actually a little deeper purple.  I couldn't get a picture of the damsel because she doesn't ever stop swimming.  The last thing I added was that fish.  I almost always give every fish a good look over each day, so I think this started when I first saw it.  Any advice on a diagnosis/course of action? <... read (as usual)... Here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/cryptidfaqs1.htm Am changing my mind re penning an ID work (marine diseases, fresh separately of course) for the pulp press ('zines) and WWM. Am going to hold off and just sell as an e-book; adding to list as you read this). I would not treat w/o confirming there's something to treat for... these white spots may be coalesced body mucus... due to... Keep reading>  I was not able to get a cleaner shrimp yet, but maybe I can this weekend. Thank you, Nick <Welcome. B>

Re: Marine Ichy Possibilities     9/26/13 Bob, <Nick> Thank you for your time and effort. Nick <Ah; welcome. BobF>

Marine Ich, reading    5/5/13
Hi there,  I am currently treating all my fish in a quarantine tank for Ich.  I have a ten gallon tank and am treating with Cupramine at .5 mg/L   We have kept them in for four weeks now until all spots disappeared.  Now, about four days ago I noticed a white spot on my Trigger's side and two small ones around his mouth.  My clown also seems to have two spots on him.
  I read that the treatment should be done for two weeks but then why would they have new spots on them after being treated this long?
<Mmm, well, the first explanation is that what you see, these spots, may not be Cryptocaryon. Do you have a 'scope?>
  I understand the stages of Ich and read that they can only susceptible to copper when free floating, so shouldn't they have all been killed off the first time they detached from the fish?
<Should...>
 I am using Seachem MultiTest Copper test kit and do add copper with every water change.  I do a 2 percent water change everyday to help keep the tank clean.
<More than two percent.>
  We just changed our thermometer to a Fluval Digital one since our other one didn't seem to keep our temp as constant as we wanted it to. Thank your for your help
<... See WWM re Crypt, copper use... Much to discuss here. Bob Fenner>
Re: Marine Ich... still    5/6/13
Hi there, I do not have a scope,
<... then you can't really be very/that sure of what you have... these spots here. They could be mucus accumulations from the copper exposure for instance>
and I meant that I do a 20 percent water change every day with added copper to help maintain level at .5You had mentioned that it might not be Ich, what else do you think the spots could be?
<.... you were referred to read. WWM is not a bb>
  It seems like the trigger has two clearer spots around his mouth area.  I was told today to bump up the temp to 83 and that would kill off fungal and parasitic diseases.
<No. Ignorant>
  It has been at 80 until now.  I have had main tank empty for four weeks now.  I left my Spotted Mandarin in there though.  I was told that they are not as susceptible to Ich because they have a thicker slime coat.  Since he eats the pods, I didn't think I could keep him alive in the quarantine.  It seems like my pod numbers are growing fast, and I don't know if I am sure on this but I have an SPS coral (maybe a Cats Claw?)  which we think the pods are feasting on.  His skin is receding from some of the tips and around the base.  It's not happening at a fast rate but not getting better.
 Any advice on this problem?  All the other coral seem to be okay.  We do a 20 percent water change weekly with good quality salt and RODI water.  I've got a carbon/phosphate reactor and a good size protein skimmer.  I add trace minerals to the water.
<... for what reasons? Don't add anything you can't, won't test for>
 How much longer should the fish be kept in the copper before adding back to the main tank and when do you think the Ich has died off in the main tank?  Thank you for your help
<... read on. B>

Disease Identification... Marine Disease> Protozoan?> Crypt?> ID f'    4/10/13
Hello WWM Crew!
I have a couple of questions regarding disease identification and treatment.
Tank info: Fish only, 55 gallons, 3 months old, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5, pH 8.0, salinity 1.010 (undergoing hyposalinity right now).
<... see WWM re>
Inhabitants: 1 Flame angelfish, 1 royal gramma, 1 Barrett's Anthias, 1 Striped mandarin fish (which is eating Selcon/Vita-chem. supplemented Nutramar ova and can be fed pods from a culture I have if he starts losing weight), and 2 tank-bred ocellaris clowns. All fish quarantined for 3 weeks before introduction.
I know that hypo is not a great idea with clownfish, but I'm afraid my fish may have Ich and, for moral reasons, I'd prefer to lose the tank-bred clownfish because of hyposalinity (I'm happy to have paid money to support this industry) than lose the wild-caught flame angel because of copper.
<There are other (better, more effective, sure) treatments; i.e. quinine compounds. See WWM re>
I've been watching the clownfish and they are very lively with good appetites. Hypo treatment has been going for 5 days now. Would you please help me diagnose?
<Need samples and a microscope... all else is guessing>
Symptoms consistent with Ich: small .5-1mm spots that disappear in a few days, spots do not move from place to place on the fish, somewhat rapid breathing, visible on all fish (each fish only has between 1 and 5 visible spots but this number is growing slowly), no excess mucus being produced.
Symptoms that don't match Ich: the spots are more of a greyish/white translucent color, growth in number of spots over time seems slower than usual for Ich (although this may be due to the hyposalinity treatment limiting them), fish are not scratching on rocks but do twitch on very rare occasions, all fish have 1 or more spots, spots are located on the body but not on the fins (yet).
I already treated the fish with general cure (Metronidazole and Praziquantel) during quarantine, so I don't think worms are the issue. Do you think the fish have Ich or something else?
<Can only guess w/ what is presented. Again, simple enough to do a real look/see... from what you describe, these markings, mucus could well be just body slime, reaction to the med. exposure, handling and low spg>
 If so, I'd rather not treat with copper... After doing a lot of digging and research, I have found some info on Chloroquine Phosphate and Quinine Sulfate (Crypto-Pro).
<Ah yes; preferred treatments currently>
From cruising WWM, it seems that you prefer Chloroquine Phosphate out of those two. Do you think that this medication will eradicate whatever protozoan/parasite my fish have?
<... I would NOT treat them, these fishes, w/o sampling and examination.
ALL treatments are toxic, debilitating in kinds, degrees>
Also, can it be combined with hyposalinity? If you think I should just do hypo, I'd love to know that. But I'd still like to know if CP or QS is safe in combination with it. I know copper is not. Finally, does either CP or QS stain aquarium sealant, decorations, etc? Since the tank only contains the fish, dead base rock that was bought dry, and nitrifying bacteria that I added from the brand "Stability," I'd like to treat that tank.
Thank you for you advice and this wonderful resource! Sorry for the lengthy email. I have realized that attention to detail is essential in this hobby. Brielle
<Welcome little Bri. Bob Fenner>
Re: Disease Identification– 04/10/13
Thank you for your advice, Bob! I'll stop the hypo treatment and continue to watch the fish/not treat them. I am hoping that you can answer the last questions on my email though, in case the symptoms worsen. I have had saltwater fish before (about five years ago) and they died from an Ich outbreak because I didn't know how to handle it.
<This is, unfortunately, the "end" to many salt water aquarists involvement in the hobby. Worse/worst for the fact that if people in the collection to wholesale ends of the trade would employ simple pH adjusted freshwater dips/baths, the vast majority of such infestations would be avoided>
I would love to have the proper knowledge/medications on hand, since I have to order meds online and know they take awhile to arrive. I know Ich is very common, so since I am still quarantining/introducing fish to this tank, I'd like to have the proper med. on hand and the knowledge on how to use it correctly. Your thoughts are much appreciated!
1. Is Chloroquine Phosphate more effective than Quinine Sulfate?
<Yes>
2. Can either/both of these be combined with hypo?
<Not really; no>
3. Does either CP or QS stain aquarium sealant, decorations, etc?
<Neither do; though semi-semi-relatedly they're both better applied in lower (less bright) light settings>
4. It seems that these two meds harm the biological filter somewhat, but don't completely disable it. Is this true?
<Yes>
Again, thank you so much for your help!
Little Bri :D
<Certainly welcome. BobF>
Re: Disease Identification– 04/10/13
Have a wonderful day and thank you for the quick responses!
Little Bri
<Ahh! B>