can't we all just get along? -Anemone compatibility (Moving Anemones Into One Aquarium?) 5/13/08
Hi!
Hey there! Scott F. in tonight!.>
I have a few tank-raised questions looking for answers, but first I'll provide a bit of background info:
<Okay...>
29g--mated pair of A. clarkii w/BTA. The Clarkii's have been in this tank with this BTA for approximately 2 1/2 years.
Mates include 1 mature L. debelius, 4 hermit crabs, 4 Turbo snails, 3 Nassarius, and a few (3) soft corals. DSB with 30-40lbs of live rock. 59g--mated pair of A. ocellaris (tank raised with the female in my care for almost 3 years) that have only recently, within the last 2 months, taken to a small BTA. Mates include 2 L. amboinensis, 3 M. sculptus, 1C. potteri (app. 5 months in tank, thus I am assuming acclimation is successful), 1 Blue Chromis, 2 Hawaiian feather dusters, 2 large Turbo snails, 5 hermit crabs (scarlet & blue-legged). This is a tall reef tank with mixed coral, DSB and 60 lbs. plus of live rock. 10g QT--1 ill G. loreto.
<Glad he/she is being treated.>
100g. long--brand spanking new, and empty, TRUVU aquarium with 30g sump/refugium.  Existing equipment, such as protein skimmers, halide lighting, additional filtration and power heads for water flow, was purchased with the intention of upgrading to a 100 gallon.  I have spent the last 4 years reading, then learning how to protect and maintain these miniature marine ecosystems before jumping in 100 gallons over my head.
<With lots of planning and preparation, the odds of getting in over your head diminish substantially!.>
Now I would like to combine the 29g and the 59g into the 100g. I understand that A. clarkii and A. ocellaris will likely not mix, thus
my dilemma.
<And a magnificent one it is!>
To complicate this further, the BTA in the 29g (with the clarkii's) has been in my care as long as the female A. ocellaris
in the 59g--both being purchased at the same time not so much for compatibility with one another but for their relative "hardiness".
Given that it has taken A. ocellaris almost 3 years to interact with an anemone, I am hesitant to disrupt the relationship of all parties
involved.
<I agree wholeheartedly. If you're fortunate enough to have fostered such a relationship, and if the anemone is doing well, I'd be hesitant to disrupt it.>
Do I sell one pair along with their anemone?(the horror!) Or is it even remotely possible that, placed at far ends of the new tank, they
might get along?
<It's always possible, but I cannot recommend it. I would consider moving the BTA to the 59g aquarium, or a larger one, but I wouldn't move it into the same aquarium with the other anemone...too much potential chemical interaction issues.>
I will add I am aware that collecting and moving either pair with their anemone is far less challenging than trying to catch the fish individually.
<Yes, but exercise extreme caution when attempting to move a long-established anemone. Consider the possible trauma that you could cause to the animal by "prying" it up or harshly removing it from its established surroundings. Also, transferring the animal to a newly established aquarium is problematic. Make sure that the new home is completely cycled and well established before moving the anemone. Go very slowly and acclimate the anemone carefully.>
Also I'd like to say that the one aspect of this hobby that I overlooked is the emotional attachment that develops with all occupants of the marine aquarium.
<So true. It's not difficult to develop an emotional attachment to the animals that we keep. This is especially true when you've kept them for years!>
I truly appreciate any advice you can offer!
Jane
<Well, Jane- my best advice is to think this through carefully; consider the pros and potential cons of trying to move the anemones to a new aquarium. Be supremely cautious, patient, and observe the animals carefully. Best of luck to you! Regards, Scott F.>

Strange Occurrence... Not, Angel, Anemone incomp.  5/6/08
Hi to all at WWM,
First I wanted to say that you guys have the best site on the internet for information. Hands down, a one stop site for reliable info needed regarding marine keeping.
Okay, you guys are going to think I'm crazy when i say this, and if I didn't see it for myself I wouldn't have believed it. Yesterday I paid a visit to my cousin who has a 65 gallon reef tank with a 30 gallon fuge. He has had the tank set up for years as a FOWLR tank and just recently started adding corals to the tank. The only inhabitant that I told him may give him a problem was a lemon peel angelfish since angelfish have been known to go to the dark side and eat coral. He kept his eye on the angel and thus far had been co-existing with the corals in the tank. Now comes the strange part! He recently purchased a BTA for his clownfish and it was a nice sized healthy looking specimen. Was inflated, sticky tentacles, and eating krill. On this visit to his house, while paying close attention to his lemon peel, I noticed something and couldn't believe my eyes. The lemon peel was actively attacking his BTA.
<Mmm, yes... Pomacanthids eat Anemones in the wild...>
The first attack I witnessed I stepped back and asked if anyone else had seen it (I thought I may have been going crazy). The second attack came shortly after and at that point all in the room witnessed it. This lemon peel grew brass ones! He was actually biting at the BTA's tentacles and MOUTH!!
<Yes>
After a few attacks I noticed now the BTA's mouth was gaping as if it had been teared.
<Torn>
I knew this was bad news and told my cousin he should act fast and remove the angel. After moving all the rock out he finally got the angel out and put him into his refugium for the time being.
<Ah, good>
I spoke with him today to get an update on the BTA and it appears it was unable to recover. During a feeding today, while trying to eat, his mouth tore some more from the initial attacks from the Lemon Peel. Unfortunately, the BTA then deflated and was found floating around the tank in the current and was removed.
I have looked ALL over for this type of behavior in lemon peel angelfish and even in angelfish in general.
<Is common knowledge>
The only info I have found is that they can be a danger to coral, clams, and some worms. Have you ever witnessed or heard of this behavior before? What may have triggered this angel to act in such a way? I figured since I couldn't find any information on this that maybe this behavior has not been recorded before and I should let you guys know.
Thanks
Huge Fan of WWM
<Use the term "Angel and Anemone Compatibility" in the WWM search term linked on the left shared border. Read the (highlighted) cached views. Bob Fenner>

Sebae Health, Mixing Species – 4/26/08
Dear Wet Media Crew,
<Hello Nicole, Brenda here!>
Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this.
<You’re welcome!>
I've been exploring your website for the benefit of my bubble time and my brain for a number of months; for about two weeks now, I've been researching Sebae anemones (I was given one by my boyfriend for my saltwater tank). I think I've been incredibly lucky, and am emailing you to make sure I am not wrong. I have a 4 inch anemone that was sold to him as a 'white' Sebae. It came into my tank a light golden-cream color, and after reading the information on your website, I thought I had no chance of keeping it alive, let alone getting it healthy. I have a baby bubble tip in the tank as well, which I've had for about 6 months (about a 1 inch 'clone' from an anemone that split in captivity, very petite, and separated from the Sebae by a sand moat between their pieces of live rock).
<I don’t recommend mixing species of anemones.>
I am emailing you because the Sebae is showing brown patches on the exposed part of its foot, and some of its tentacles are turning a darker almost golden-brown color. From what I've read, this is good.
<It sounds like it is regaining its zooxanthellae.>
He anchored himself of a piece of live rock which I placed with him before releasing him into my tank, and I positioned a powerhead to give strong water flow to his part of the tank (which my baby bubble tip seems to love).
<Powerheads are dangerous with anemones.>
He has released 'poop' particles twice, but has not exhibited the vomiting behavior or the hiding behavior denoted on your site; his mouth opens very slowly to eat (and of course to poop), but is otherwise closed. He responds to physical stimuli, and his tentacles are sticky, but he does not close at night, which I'm worried about.
<This is normal.>
After reading the material cautioning against overfeeding, I have not tried to feed him, but he has caught small particles of clam twice, and eaten them, although it seems to take him significantly longer to move a piece of food to his mouth and eat it than it takes my bubble tip.
<Try feeding pieces no bigger than the mouth, 2 – 3 times a week.>
I've been burning through test chemicals to make sure my water is matches the specs on your site, so far, all is good there. Have I gotten unbelievably lucky for a novice anemone caretaker, or should I be giving this anemone and his piece of live rock to a more experienced keeper?
<I would need to know more information such as the size of the tank, exact water parameters, and equipment to be able to comment. However, I do recommend separating the two anemones.>
The baby bubble tip is the only other anemone I've ever had, and he seems to be thriving; I bought better lighting when I got him in November, and all of my water tests come out well, if occasionally low in calcium (I have a problem with feather dusters spawning in my tank CONSTANTLY- I know that is not really a 'problem', but it gets annoying to keep having to scrub the glass every week to get the new ones off). I'd rather not number one, kill the Sebae, and number 2, risk the rest of my tank by trying something out of my depth. The rest of my tank is comprised of more appropriate aquatic life, a pair of tank-raised clowns. I believe they're Ocellaris; they were sold as 'false percula', and are currently a beautiful orange-shading-to-black: they ignore the Sebae in favor of their favorite piece of live rock, not a surprise there. I also have a damsel and a neon goby, shrimp, stars, a cowry, snails, crabs, and more baby feather dusters every day it seems. It is a very simple tank other than the Sebae, but I'd rather not mess it up since it seems to be doing so well.
<Do you have a protein skimmer?>
Thank you again for taking the time to read this, and for any advice you may have.
Nicole
<You’re welcome! Brenda>

Mixing Angelfish with Anemones, Reef Compatibility, 4/9/08
<Hello Brad, Brenda here!>
I first off want to say think you for answering my last question it was very appreciated and helpful.
<You’re welcome!>
I have a Medium Imperator Angel and medium Koran Angel that can’t seem to keep their mouths off my anemones.
<I’m not surprised. These fish are not reef safe. They need to be separated.>
The Imperator was first to start nipping at my green carpet once my clown starting going in it so I finally gave it to a buddy of mine hoping it will live. Then when the clown started going into my rose anemone he started nipping at it. After watching the Imperator the Koran started following suit. Why are they doing it and why are they not being stung?
<It is their nature. It may eventually be stung and eaten by the anemone.>
Before the clown started going into any of my anemones neither even got close to them now that they see the clown inside the tentacles they want to start snacking on it? Any reasoning behind this?
<More information found here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/angelcompafaq.htm >
Thanks for all the help.
Brad
<You’re welcome! Brenda>

LTA attacked by Choc chip star 04/07/2008
Hi,
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
Friday we woke up to find our chocolate chip star hovering over the spot where our LTA was. We removed the star from that spot and could not find the LTA anywhere, not even a trace of it. Needless to say the star went back to my LFS the same day.
<<A wise decision, very predatory>>
I was heartbroken by the loss of our anemone. We have had it for about 8months, and it was about 8 inches in diameter and very healthy. So I bought a new anemone to replace the old one, it is a BTA. When I returned home to acclimate the BTA, to my surprise the LTA was out and alive! I have a 75gallon with a snowflake eel, and volition lion, about 90lbs of live rock, and snails for cleanup crew. The LTA does not appear happy, he will not inflate fully, his tentacles are long and inflated though, appears to have no injuries, has not moved from his spot, however his mouth remains slightly open (which I am aware is not a good sign). He does seem to inflate more as the days go on, but mouth remains open. I placed
the BTA on the opposite side of the tank, where he immediately attached his foot.
My questions are as follows:
1. What precautions should I take when housing two different anemones in the same tank?
<<Plenty of distance between SP.>>
2. What should I do for my LTA?
<<If possible, move to quarantine tank, target feed and monitor closely>>
3. Will the LTA be okay?
<<Given good water parameters, staple diet, lighting, should recover fine>>
4. What should I watch for or be worried about?
<<The main to watch is the distance between these two, else chemical warfare will ensue>>
I did perform a 20% water change yesterday Sat), just to be on the safe side. I use RO/DI water which I mix myself. All of my parameters are perfect. We have had the tank for a year, and it has been very stable for the past 6months. I do have a skimmer, two additional powerheads (which are screened to avoid the anemones being sucked in) and appropriate lighting for anemones.
Thanks in advance for your help! Love your site
Michelle
<<Hope the above helps. If problems do arise between the two nems in the tank, i would suggest removal of the BTA..Personaly, i prefer to only see multiple nems in tanks of 100 gals plus, this gives plenty of room for the two to have "plenty" of space between them>>
<<Thanks and good luck. A Nixon>>

Does my new wrasse have a death wish?
Dare Devil Wrasse and Anemone 4-3-08
So I'm very new to marine aquariums, learning new things every day and your site has been awesome.
<Thanks!>
I have a question about my pink tipped anemone, how poisonous is it to other fish?
<Very. These stinging celled individuals can reach out and nab an unsuspecting fish with a wave of a tentacle. >
About a week ago I added a six-line wrasse and he seems to be doing great in his new tank, except he worries me because he swims between the tentacles seemingly without a care in the world. My question is does the fish have a chance of being eaten, (the wrasse is small enough that it'd be pretty easy if the pink-tip got hold of him I'd think) and if not, is the fish bothering the anemone? I'm pretty sure my wrasse thinks he's a clown fish!
<While his stunts may seem harmless to him, they are actually death defying acts. At any moment he can become a potential meal for your anemone. I would remove one of the two, as these acrobatics of the wrasse may cost him his life. As far as harassment is concerned, on the anemones behalf, I wouldn’t be worried. >
14g
8.0ph
nitrite: 0
nitrite: 5
ammonia: 0
the
Thank you so much for your help!
<Not a problem. You have a brave little wrasse. –Yunachin.>

New Anemone Roaming the tank! Possible Chemical Warfare - 3/7/08
<Hello Carolyn, Brenda here!>
Hi there! I usually find all my answers within your site but can't tonight. We have a 55 gal salt water...all water parameters are great...we check them daily, also I have about 60+ lbs live rock, a few coral in the tank, 2 mushroom rocks, 1 small cluster of zoo's, 1 small brain, feather dusters scattered, frogspawn, green star polyps, 1 small frag of Montipora Cap., also...we have 2 bubble tip anemones... which wont stay put. We just added them to the tank yesterday.
<They may just be looking for a suitable spot in the tank. This is not unusual for a newly introduced anemone. You do have quite a mix of coral. You may have a chemical war going on in there. The green star polyp and mushroom coral can be toxic to anemones, especially if you have a lot of them. Are you running carbon and changing it on a regular basis?>
I know they are mobile- but I had a bubble in the tank for almost a year- he never moved- until I added a second bubble tip. Then I lost them both.
<Anemones of the same clone are best. There is never a guarantee that two anemones that are not of the same clone will be compatible.>
I have plenty of light...400 watt metal halide.
<Wow! That is a lot of light for a 55 gallon tank!>
I feel like here we go again... My LFS guy tells me yes, I can have them together- the bubble tip as long as monitored and kept away from Coral should be fine. Any Ideas?
<Please send me a list of your water parameters to be sure there is nothing else going on. Are you using a skimmer?>
I really want the bubbles for my Clarkii's- they love'em!
Thanks! Carolyn
<You’re welcome! Brenda>

Symbiotic tank 01/21/2008
Hi, whoever's there today,
<Riley>
I'm in the early stages of planning a tank to show off as many symbiotic relationships as I safely can.
<Mmm... a matter of perception my friend. Look about you... there is NOTHING but such arrangements on this planet... I take it here that you are referring to more overt ones...>
The tank will be 65g about 50lbs live rock and 2-3 in live sand bed. So far I plan on having an ocellaris clown with Entacmaea quadricolor as its host, and a Hi Fin red banded goby with a red banded pistol shrimp. Any suggestions on other relationships that would co-exist peacefully? Thanks, your website is awesome.
<Mmm, well... the goby may be consumed by the Bubbletip in time... but all might fit in such a small volume. Do seek out a "tank-produced" Entacmaea. Bob Fenner>

Cleaner shrimp and anemone.  1/8/08
<<Hello, Andrew here>>
I have a long tentacle anemone and a cleaner shrimp that is purposely touching it and climbing on it in some cases. It appears that the anemone doesn't like it because he shrinks in that area. It looks like the shrimp is then scraping the nematocysts (stinging cells) off of his forward limbs and eating them. I have never seen this, the anemone seems to be doing okay except he has not yet settled in one spot.
Do you think there is cause for concern?
<<Had a similar experience, nothing to be concerned about>>
Thanks, Nick
<<Thanks for the questions, A Nixon>>

Anemone Question/Compatibility 1/5/08
 Hi again crew!
<Hello>
 We so appreciate that you are always here and always willing to answer questions. We have read much on your site about the following two questions, but just want to double-check.
<OK>
Here goes: We have a 125-gallon reef tank, up for one year. 4x2x2.
The tank has had its ups and downs (as have we!) but is stable now.
Temp 78-79, ammonia 0, nitrates 0, nitrites 0, calcium <400 (so I am adding Purple Up every other day for a week or so), salinity 1.025.
We have more than 150 lbs of live rock, about 3-4 inches of live sand. Under the tank we have removed the bioballs in our sump and replaced them with live rock. Have a skimmer, two heaters (thanks to WWM for the suggestion; temp is much more stable than using just one), four powerheads (including one that just keeps the surface of the tank moving).
Our tank is an open top,
<Yikes.>
since our light fixture is raised and does not allow for anything underneath it. We top off about 1.25 gallons per day from evaporation. We use R/O water that has been sitting, heated, for a week or more.
Inhabitants: 1 Sailfin Tang (the BOSS), 2 Yellow Tangs, 2 Yellow Chromis, 1 Fairy Wrasse, 1 Fire Shrimp, 1 Engineer Goby, 1 Coral Beauty, 2 Clarkiis, 1 Algae Blenny and 1 unknown striped Goby (the surviving one of three...the other two we found on the living room carpet...our LFS said they didn't know the fish were jumpers).
<Without the tank being covered, this problem will continue. Have you thought about putting a glass top on the tank?>
In the > sump are two Snowflake Eels that apparently went over the edge of the baffles. We can't get them out easily so the next time we pull the underneath apart we'll grab them to return them to the LFS. Oh, and one Sand-sifting Starfish.
Non-swimming inhabitants (all singular): Candycane, Plate, Colt and Torch Corals.
Trachyphyllia, feather duster, mushrooms, and polyps.
Question 1: Our Colt and our Star Polyps are unhappy. For a month or so the Stars and the Colt were awesome, but now all Stars are closed and the Colt is wilted. Not disintegrating, but wilted and slimy looking. We presume this is from allelopathic issues with the other coral?
<More than likely. The use of Chemi Pure will go a long way in removing allelopathic compounds from the water. Is what I use.>
We presume we need to stick with one type of coral? (We have never been able to keep Xenia, either.) If this is correct, we will return both to the LFS, which is happy to take them back.
<Try using Chemi Pure, see if this doesn't help. Also be sure plenty of room is provided between individual corals. Some corals do have sweeper tentacles that extend beyond the coral itself and will sting other corals that are nearby.>
Question 2: The larger of our Clownfish (which used to live in the Goniopora we no longer have) is now sleeping on the Trachyphyllia.
It's kind of cute, but we are worried that it will hurt the coral. It lays on its side and rubs back and forth on the coral all night. The coral (so far) seems not to mind.
<As long as the polyps do not retract, should not be a problem.>
While we realize that most clownfish do not host Anemones,
<Wild caught Clownfish will host anemones to their liking, that is, the anemones they are found with in nature.>
this one seems to be telling us it needs another buddy. Your advice?
<In "buddy", do you mean another Clownfish or an anemone? Would not advise an anemone mixed with corals. They will eventually move and sting corals in their travel and you will be throwing another monkey into the allelopathy bag.
We have no particular issue having an Anemone, as our coral are established and not easy to push around. We aren't worried about a traveler knocking everything over.
<Ah, but as above, the stinging process along the way along with more allelopathy issues.>
We make water changes every three- four weeks, and test regularly. We don't know exactly what kind of  lighting we have .... fluorescent bulbs (daylight, actinic and  moonlight).
<Should make sure you have the proper lighting and intensity for keeping corals. May be another reason why some of your corals are degrading in health. See here and related articles above.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marlgtganthony.htm>
 Thanks as always ... you guys (and you gals) are awesome!
<Thank you. James (Salty Dog)>
 Michael and Dianne

What happens within the tank when an Anemone dies? 12/20/07
Hi Crew,
<Hello Bobby, Brenda here!>
I have a question about Condylactis Anemones.
<Okay!>
If I were to buy a Condylactis, and it happen to die (obviously not hoping, just sort of planning ahead), what would happen within the tank? Would this pretty much crash my tank?
<It is a definite possibility, especially in smaller tanks.>
I'm new to anemones so any information about what happens after their death would help.
<They can fall to pieces, and are very hard to get out of the water in one piece. You may need to siphon a lot of it out. It smells horrible, and will cause an ammonia spike. You will need to do several large water changes over the next few days. Having a supply of premixed saltwater is always recommended for emergencies. I recommend researching their care several months in advance so you can eliminate the chances of it dying. More information here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/inverts/cnidaria/anthozoa/anemones.htm >
Thank you very much, Bobby
<You’re welcome! Brenda>

Condylactis anemones
Mixed Anemone Species, Inadequate Food, Lighting, Environment, and Tank Mates – 12/6/07
Hi there,
<Hello Natalie, Brenda here>
I am new to your website and so far I love it.
<Good to hear! I hope the love continues!>
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me. I have a 125 gallon tank (up for 3 months) with 50lbs live rock (I am adding more all the time), crushed coral, live sand, and a plenum filter (not the only source of filtration). My parameters are as follows pH 8.2, ammonia and nitrite 0, nitrate 30.
<Nitrates need to be zero. What are the temperature, salinity, alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium?>
My lighting consists of 2 50 watt bulbs (5500k) and 2 actinic 420 bulbs.
<50 watt bulb??>
I have 6 small damsels,
<Holy Damsels!!!>
2 Percula clowns, 1 tomato clown,
<Clownfish are damsels also.>
1 large serpent star, tons of tiny feather dusters and starfish (compliments of the live rock), 1 emerald crab, 1 porcelain crab, tons of hermit crabs, turbo snails, zebra snails, 1 BTA, and 3 Condylactis.
<Ouch! You have too many crabs, and are mixing anemone species. A three month old tank is not a sufficient environment for an anemone. I also don’t recommend 3 clownfish, it may end in death. Crabs are opportunistic feeders, and can become predators.>
My question is this, as I have read through your website I am finding that it is normal for the anemones to turn brown.
<If the anemone has previously expelled its zooxanthellae, then yes, this is normal. It is a sign that the anemone is recovering.>
So I am really looking for some validation that even though my anemones look all beautiful and white (even kind of green under the actinic lights) this is not healthy coloring for them.
<A “white” anemone is not a healthy anemone. Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/condydisfaq.htm and here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/e.quadFAQ5.htm >
They are healthier and happier when they are the brown (light brown) color?
<Yes, loss of color is caused by loss of zooxanthellae. Zooxanthellae, is required for their long term survival.>
They all eat very well. I feed them frozen brine with a baster and will be soon adding pieces of fish and clam to their diets.
<Your anemones are eating, but are not eating well. Brine shrimp, unless newly hatched has little or no nutritional value. I recommend feeding Silverside, Lance Fish, Kill, raw shrimp, Mysis shrimp, etc. I recommend Silversides soaked in Selcon for sick anemones, feeding small 1/8 inch portions daily until it is fully recovered.>
In fact one Condylactis is a host to the tomato clown!!
<This may not be a good thing. A Condylactis is not a natural host to clownfish, and this may end in death. I also don’t recommend allowing a clownfish to host an unhealthy anemone.>
I am absolutely infatuated with them and want to ensure that they are healthy and happy. (I know that I need more light and that is in the works).
<Without sufficient lighting, food, established environment, appropriate tank mates, the anemones will not survive long. I do suggest you return them until you can provide for them. Keep reading.>
Thanks again, Natalie
<You’re welcome! Brenda>

Anemone Stings a Mandarin – No Reading 10/07/07
Hi Crew,
<Hello Jessica, Brenda here>
Did a quick search but really don't have much time.
<I’m sorry honey! I don’t exactly have much time either. I’m watching my grandfather die, (for 34 days now and sleeping in a chair) my son is also in the hospital. I get about 3 hours a day away from the hospital in a 24 hour period, including my breaks for breakfast, lunch and dinner! Yet I still manage to answer your question. I suggest you make more time.>
My green mandarin was stung by my bulb tip anemone. I moved the mandarin
<Mandarin>
to QT seconds after. His colors are very faded and he looks a little puffy.
<Please explain his habitat before the sting.>
Is there a way to treat him before I lose him?
<Time will tell if he will survive the sting. My guess is that the anemone was not its only problem.>
I LOVE HIM!!!! Please help! I will continue research awaiting your response.
<That would be a very wise choice!>
Thank you Jessica
<Brenda>

Re: Anemone Stings a Mandarin – No Reading 10/08/07
Sorry to hear you are having a horrible string of luck. Things will get better, they usually do.
<I hope so! Thank you!>
I did not mean I didn't have time to research, I mean I didn't have much time because the fish looked awful and lethargic!
<It is a powerful sting. I myself have a few scars.>
All water parameters are good, ammonia, phosphate, Nitrites, and Nitrates are all 0. My Mandarin, Kermit, was fine until he hopped onto the anemone. Big mistake! He is still alive and finally eating again as of this afternoon.
<This is a very good sign. What size tank was Kermit in before the sting? How much live rock? How long has the tank been set up?>
He has adjusted well to frozen brine shrimp.
<Brine shrimp is not an adequate diet. It has little nutritional value unless it is newly hatched (less than 24 hours).>
His colors are still a bit drab though. He is still in QT. I’m a little nervous to put him back in the display, maybe in a week or two.
<I can understand not wanting to put him back. There is also no guarantee he won’t surf the anemone again. Provide it some hiding places while in quarantine to reduce the stress. PVC works great.>
I want him to get strong again. Is there something I can give him to aid him in his recovery?
<Give it a more appropriate diet. More information available here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/mandfdgfaqs.htm As far as the anemone sting, there is nothing that you can do except provide an adequate environment and wait. Brenda>

New Fishes, New Problems (Problems With New Fish Additions) – 09/23/07
Good morning crew.
<Hi there! Scott F. in today!>
First, I just want to say thank you for donating your time like this!! I have found so much useful information and contribute the success of the tank to some articles on your site!
<Thanks for the kind words. We have a top notch crew of talented volunteers here on WWM, and I'm proud to be associated with them!>
I have a 75 gallon tank coral/fish and is doing pretty well.
Ammonia - 0
Nitrate - 0
Nitrite - 0
PH - 8.2
Alk - Normal
Tank mates include:
Clownfish
Black and White Damsel
Diamond Goby
Coral Banded Shrimp
Atlantic Anemone
Bubble Coral
Christmas Coral
Assorted Polyps
4 turbo snails
Assorted blue and red crabs
2 feather dusters
<Interesting mix...>
The Polyps tend to flourish in my tank growing larger and larger everyday. The anemone, bubble and Christmas tree all seem to sustain life but don’t seem to flourish like the polyps.
<Well, anemones do have rather demanding husbandry requirements and you really are better off creating a system to cater to their specific needs. Categorically, they don't do well in mixed aquariums in the long run for most people.>
I can’t seem to keep alive additional fish in the tank. I added a Cardinal who lasted a few weeks then passed. I immediately tested the tank and all levels were 0. Not trusting my tests I took my water to the LFS and all
levels were perfect. I tried again with a Foxface and same result.
<Curious. BTW, I think that a Foxface needs more space than this aquarium can afford, but I don't see that as the reason whey the fish died.>
The current fish seem to do great and love life. There does not seem to be any aggression towards anything.
I have read about other 75 gallon tanks that have twice as much livestock.
<I'm sure that there are systems out there like that. However, think about this for a second: I have lots of friends who drive their cars though twisty canyon at ridiculous speeds, and they never get into accidents...Does that mean that I should also be driving outrageously fast on the same roads? Maybe a bad analogy, but you get the picture. For optimum success, create an environment that provides all of your specimens conditions that they need to thrive, including conservative stocking levels. Who cares what "other guys" do? You do what you feel is right for your animals. That's what got you where you are!>
I attribute this to my actual water quantity. It’s a 75 gallon tank with almost 90-100 lbs of live rock and about 75 lbs of sand. My displacement is about 8-10 gallons. My canister filter and remora protein skimmer are the only devices that add water quantity to the system. In your opinion have I reached my tanks capacity? I would like additional fish but not at the expense of their lives.
<I commend you on your philosophy. I believe that you could probably keep one or two additional small fish in this system. I'm more concerned about your mix of inverts that I am about your fish. It's hard to say why the fishes that you introduced died. Could be stress from acclimation, transport, etc. It sounds like overt aggression from other tankmates and water quality were not factors. It really sounds like an issue related to the new fish themselves. Review your selection process, quarantine procedure, and fish source. Another, rather distant possibility is that there is some sort of pathogen in your system that the existing inhabitants have developed an immunity to, but that the new fishes were unable to withstand. Personally, I'm leaning towards the new fishes themselves. Do review the issues that I pointed out, and perhaps you'll have better luck in the future! Regards, Scott F.>

E. quadricolor, Bubble Tip Anemone Not Fully Inflated, Mixed Species Tank??? – 7/28/07
Hi there!
<Hello, Brenda here!>
Well I have a bubble anemone and would just like to have a concern addressed if possible?
<I’ll try!>
My water quality is perfect and lighting is good (in fact all other anemones and inverts are happy and are growing like mad).
<All other anemones? Unless the anemones are clones, it is likely the problem.>
My bubble anemone just doesn’t fully inflate. It rarely deflates. It's open all day long and very occasionally moves around, but not too often, changed positions once in the last 2-3 weeks).
<A moving anemone is a sign that it is unhappy. It may be getting stung by a nearby anemone or coral.>
My main concern is why does it never fully inflate? It is inflated but not to what I have seen it do before! I would say it is about 3 quarters fully inflated but that is as far as it goes! Any theories?
<I need more information. Are the anemones that you keep the same species and clones? If not, I would separate, that is likely the problem. If they are the same species and a clone: What are the other tank mates? I also need actual water parameters, tank size, equipment list, including lighting. How long have you had the anemone? Have you changed anything lately, bulbs perhaps? What do you feed, how often and what sized portions? How long has the tank been set up?>
Many thanks, Jamie
<You’re Welcome! Brenda>

My entire 52g tank wiped out - Anemone Toxins - 7/26/07
<Hi Kimmy>
I have 3 saltwater aquariums: one 52g, a 40g hexagon, and a small hospital tank.<Okay>
Recently, something went through and wiped out my entire tank. <I’m so sorry to hear that!> Not sure what it was, and hoping I might find some answers from you all. <Hope so!>
My 52g was set up as a non-aggressive fish only tank. I had a Valentini puffer, 2 mated Clowns, a longnose butterfly, a blue tang <needs a larger tank>, a Hawkfish, and a high hat fish in there. I also had a pink tip Haitian anemone, a sea slug, cleaner shrimp, and a red legged hermit crab.
My problems seem to have started with getting a chocolate chip starfish. I know that sounds crazy, <Not at all> but that's when they started. It was a very large star with quite an appetite. Needless to say, it ate my sea slug, and part of my anemone. <Yep, chocolate chip stars/Protoreastor nodosus are attractive, but have big appetites – for just about anything.>
Thinking that the anemone could regenerate itself, we left it in there. <Risky> It seemed for the first day to do just that, but it soon after, just died. <Recovery depends on how much damage was done, overall health prior to, and would need pristine water conditions.> It shriveled up and turned to mush. <Not good at all> We removed the starfish and put him into my hospital tank, by itself, hoping to save anything else from being eaten. Apparently, the shrimp we were feeding it wasn't enough. <Agreed>
It was then that my fish began dying. First to go was the longnose butterfly. Next was the blue tang. These were followed by the Hawkfish, the mated <clown> pair (one and then the other), and lastly the high hat. The only one that didn't die was the Valentini puffer. <Tough little dude> He was taken out and placed in with the starfish in the hospital tank because I thought there must be something wrong with the water in the 52g. <Definitely> Needless to say, the Valentini ate and killed my starfish. <The sea star wasn’t the only creature with a big appetite> I swear if it's not one thing it's another! <It sure seems that way sometimes, doesn’t it, but hang in there!> We then placed the cleaner shrimp and the red legged hermit crab over into the hospital tank...woke up this morning, and the darn Valentini ate my cleaner shrimp too! I found that really strange because they were both the best of friends in the 52g. Weird huh?
<You don’t mention what size hospital tank they were all in, but considering a puffer’s appetite, if it’s pretty small tank/not a lot of hiding spaces, then that’s not too surprising.>
Anyhow, the water in the 52g has been tested repeatedly and tests fine. <even ammonia?> The tank looks great. Not sure what could have killed all of my fish. I do have a theory on this, let me share it with you. <Sure> All of this seems to have started after the star killed my anemone. <Yes indeed> I read someplace that the anemone has some sort of ink <?> in them which is poisonous. <Hmmm, nothing ink-like in an anemone> Do you think that maybe when the star ate the anemone, it released some of that poison into the water which could have killed all those fish?
<I do believe that the death of the anemone was the factor here. Unfortunately, when one dies, it can pollute a tank very quickly.>
Should we have removed it right away?
< In hindsight (always 20/20!), we’d both say “Yes!”, but it’s understandable that you’d have wanted to give it a chance to survive (especially if you were unaware of the possible consequences of it dying). The way I see a situation like this is that although it’s very hard on an already stressed anemone to remove it, if you think it’s failing, it’s best to take it out. It’s just not worth the risk.>
It seemed as if all the fish who died had a really hard time breathing prior to their passing. <Have read of the same thing happening following anemone deaths.>
The one who had it the worst was the blue tang...it even turned colors. <Yep, majorly stressed> I felt so bad about that! <Understandable!> I couldn't think of what to do to help it. We put it into the hospital tank <That's what you do!> and it seemed to help, but not much, and it died anyhow.
<I’m so sorry. It must have been past the point of no return, and/or couldn't deal with the additional stress of capture/relocation.>
The fish who died all seemed a bit disoriented and all acted strange prior to their passing. Have you ever heard of anything like that?
<Not about being disoriented, but acting strangely, labored breathing - yes.>
Any suggestions?
<As for anemones in general, as stated earlier, they can cause real problems in a tank when they die. That's the sort of thing that's good to know ahead of time, and where researching the animals you plan to keep comes in handy. A complication with anemones is that with all that soft tissue, once they do die, decomposition can progress pretty rapidly. Please see WWM FAQ’s for more on incidents like this (starting here):
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anemhlthfaq6.htm >
Should we empty the tank, clean it, and start completely over with it?
<You can if you want, but I don’t think it’s necessary. I’d do several (at least three) large (at least 50%) water changes, run carbon, monitor water chemistry, and let the tank go fallow for about a month.>
Is there something I can put in the water to make it ok for fish? <Unfortunately, no> Tests o.k.'s I dunno...unless it's that poison from the anemone. <My guess as well> Can't think of what else it would be. I hate thinking about having to empty it completely and start over when there is so much money into that tank already, <Agreed> it's been cycled and looks great.
One thing I noticed too, after the star ate the anemone, the tank became so clean. <Hmmm> Prior to, we had a brown algae problem which was being handled by the turbo snails and the sea slug, the cleaner shrimp, and the red legged crab...but then BAM white clean. Almost like everything was bleached clean, but no bleach was near that tank. I can assure you that. Weird huh? <Mmmm, yes. Not sure what the deal was there>
Another thing that caught my attention, and I thought maybe could have started this: During one of our last visits to the fish store, we picked up some more turbo snails for the tank. One of the snails had some green stuff on its back which we assumed was algae and thought not a lot about. That green stuff turned into bubbles of sorts. It looked really gross. Any idea what that stuff might have been? <Was it slimy? It sounds like Cyano/BGA - tons of info at WWM about this stuff.> Could it have been responsible for killing off my tank? <No>
Be aware, during all of this, my water levels showed great. so I just haven't a clue what happened. <I’m surprised that the ammonia levels weren’t elevated, but ??>
Please help,
Kimmy
<Hope the above info helps. Again, sorry for your loss! Take care - Lynn)

Condylactis passiflora, intra species contention? Oh! Yes   7/10/07
Hi Crew,
I have a minor but nagging problem with two small (3-4cm Foot size) Condylactis passiflora anemones in a small 25G Aqua-One 620 tank
They have shared it with a Maroon clown
<Needs more room...>
and a royal Dottyback for about 7 months (tank about 4 years old). The lighting is quite poor ( 1 x 18W actinic and 1 X 18 W 14000K HPC) , but the tank is short, and they are halfway up it (probably about 25cm from light) and I feed them very small pieces of krill and silverside to try and make up for it about once a week and they have always seemed happy.
About a month after I bought it this anemone divided (hence the two now), and ever since I noticed that always one or the other would look happy (large, extended) and the other not , but never both at the same time.
<Interesting>
Is it possible that even though these were originally the same animal, that they are now inhibiting each other via allelopathy?
<I believe this might be so. Perhaps though genetically identical there is something here in the way of a mechanism to/driving distribution...>
Just recently both moved due to my letting the water quality lapse (Nitrates got a bit high), and have resettled, but even though the quality has been fixed (PH 8.2, Salinity 1.025, Nitrates >40ppm, no Nitrites or Ammonia, Temp 24C)
for about 3 weeks now, and all the other inhabitants are happy ( even three fussy Sabella feather dusters and other various little telltale tube worms I have) these two have both remained "Stubby looking" for almost 3 weeks, tentacles completely withdrawn and stubby (not actually closed up except for nighttime) and very small .
They still accept food, and seem to ingest it , but no improvement. Could it be as simple as the light intensity finally bothering them?
<Yes... and/or residual challenge/toxicity>
I found a bristleworm about a month ago and decided to err on the side of caution and remove it, as it looked like one of the more predatory ones, have since seen some little tunnels made of substrate that I have come to suspect the bristleworms make appear here and there , would predatory bristleworms bother these guys?
<Could, yes>
The only other suspect is the clown, the anemone(s) established a quick relationship (not that they had a lot of choice) with him and both seemed happy with it. Since they have shriveled he is most unhappy about it and noses them all the time wanting them to open properly so he can ruffle in their tentacles, it may be that they are not appreciating his company any more (have had the same experience with some women myself ;-) )
<Mmmm, watch this... they're reading nowadays... and likely pretty soon will demand the right to vote, equal pay for equal work...>
One more thing, I have not paid much attention to calcium/hardness/alkalinity in the water as the interrelationship of these factors and what they really mean to the water has always escaped me, no matter how hard I have tried to get a picture of their importance. Have pretty much always hoped that if Salinity and PH are OK in a crushed shell based substrate with Live rock, and I'm not adding anything, then these would probably be at acceptable levels.
<This, these traits, characteristics/qualities have ways of catching up with you...>
Can you please suggest which of these factors is most important, that I should focus on testing/understanding, e.g.. should I just measure calcium and be done with it?
<Mmm, would be a good idea to do a bit of reading...>
Would appreciate any feedback
Cheers,
Rama
<Do give a read re Premnas systems, alkalinity and pH, biominerals... and Small marine systems period on WWM... the indices, search tool... "that'll be quite... time-consuming, mmmm". Bob Fenner>

Re: Marine Aquarium Setup 7/5/07
Dear Chris,
<Hello>
Thank you for responding to my last email and answering my questions. I was wondering exactly what kind of corals that would be best fit in my tank given the animals and corals I have listed that I currently have from my last email. <I would not mix any corals with anemones.> Since it will be at least 90 gallons and 60" long and about 18"-20" tall I will have a lot of space. Also, what lighting would best fit these corals and benefit my tank the most.
Thanks,
Connor
<The chemical warfare that will occur between the corals and anemones make it very difficult to mix these creatures. I do not recommend any corals while you have the anemone.>
<Chris>

Anenome problem, repro.  – 07/03/07
Hi, My husband's reef aquarium is 90 gal, we have had it for 2 years with little or no problems. Tonight, he fed his fish, brine and Mysis, the usual diet, within 20 minutes the 2 bubble tip anenomes
<Are these clones? I do hope so>
were emitting a white substance that has totally clouded the tank.
<Mmm, very likely sex products...>
He tested the water, everything has tested normal, along with the salinity. The fish seem o.k., along with the corals. We do not know what is happening with the anenomes. We have no R.O. water on hand to do a partial change and cannot see into the tank to remove the anenomes. We only hope that when we wake up tomorrow that we will not loose
<lose>
any of our fish. We have no new additions to our tank, the current fish have been in the tank along with the anenomes for over a year. Can you shed any light on this?
Thanks so much.
Janice
<As stated, this is likely a reproductive event... Actinarians/Anemones do this as well as various degrees of asexual fission. Neat! I would make the largish water changes... and add activated carbon to your filter flow path... and spiff up (clean) your skimmer... Hopefully all the gametes will be eaten, removed, otherwise not cause a crash here. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Help! Everything is dying, induced prob.s from mis-stocking a small SW sys.  6/22/07
<Yeeikes!>
Since November 2006, I have had a 24 gallon salt water aquarium. All the parameters (ph, nitrites, ammonia, nitrates, salinity, temperature) are in the normal range. I do bi-weekly water changes. Up until a week ago, the tank was thriving and doing well.
In the past week; I have had my 6-line wrasse,
<Needs more room...>
the Chromis, the goby, and the feather duster all die.
What I have left is a Clarks Clown Fish,
<Perhaps the aggressor, factor here>
an anemone,
<This is too small a volume to house this animal>
2 skunk shrimp, 2 crabs, 1 starfish,
<Species?>
mushrooms,
<Toxic with the anemone...>
and snails.
Prior to the death of any fish I had added some live rock with purple-teal mushrooms established on the rock. A couple of days later, I found 2 dead fish. So, immediately I checked everything and everything was in ideal ranges.
<Mmm, I/we should qualify your stmt. that "Everything you tested" seemed perfect... There are many aspects for which there are no tests (currently)>
After the death of the 1st two fish; we found a break in the pump wire and thought that my fish my have been electrocuted. We replaced the pump.
<Yikes!>
Today, I found my Gobi in the "mouth" of my anemone. I didn't know that an anemone was a carnivore.
<Oh yes...>
So, now what do I check. I am in the dark about what to do. Please Help!
Janet
<Pretty simple and yet time-involved... You need to read re the species you have... their Compatibility, Systems especially... on WWM... Please learn to/use the search tool, indices... What you list is incompatible, too crowded to "give you much chance" of success... Likely negative interaction twixt the anemone and shrooms poisoned all... Bob Fenner>

Re: Help! Everything is dying   6/23/07
Just curious, why would things start dying now? They have been together in the tank for 6 months without any problems?
<... read on... your msg., where you were referred re compatibility. B>

Nudibranch/Anemone Slime Upsetting Fish? Yep! 6/6/07
Hello,
<Greetings, Mich with you today.>
I had a quick question about the effects of nudibranch or anemone slime on fish. I added a rock flower anemone, a couple cerith snails, and a lettuce nudibranch (I got a bit of hair algae for him to get rid of) into my tank today and while acclimating them and adding them into the tank a great deal of the slime they had produced while in their bags went into the water.
<Yikes!>
I tried to remove some of it but couldn't get it all. Anyway, about 2 hours after adding in these items my four fish (2 true Percs, a bicolor blenny, and a purple Pseudochromis) began to scratch their faces/ gills on rocks.
They then stopped for a while but began to scratch again a few hours later.
<Likely a reaction to the toxins introduced into the system.>
I have had a problem in the past with ich but I made sure to quarantine all the fish for 6 weeks using hypo salinity and left the main tank free of fish as well. The hypo salinity seemed to work as all the fish returned to a relaxed state and their symptoms of ich went away so after their long quarantine period they were reintroduced into the main tank. It has been 2-3 months since this outbreak and they have shown no signs of ich since. I have also added no new fish into the tank since then.
<Ok.>
Basically, my question is whether or not their sudden scratching could be from the introduction of these new inverts and the slime they produced during their long journey from the fish store or if the fish have ich or some other parasite infestation again and just be chance they didn’t begin to feel it until 2 hours after I introduced the new items?
<Probably a result of the chemical hazards added to your tank.>
After testing my water my results were normal.
<Ok.>
In your opinion, should I prepare for a possible parasite infestation or wait and observe the fish before acting?
<I would wait and observe, though this stress response can weaken the immune system allowing parasitic organisms a more favorable foothold.>
Also, do fish ever scratch on rocks to mark territory?
<Mmm, not that I'm aware of.>
I am guessing the answer is no but it was worth asking because my fish seemed to all scratch on the rocks around the same time and then suddenly stop almost in unison.
<Again, no doubt a response to environmental stress. You should add an extra bag of carbon ASAP and consider a larger water change.>
Thanks for any advice you can give me and sorry if this has been answered before.
<Hope this helps. Mich>

Combining Anemone Species...Never Recommended - 05/27/07
Hi,
<<Hello>>
I have a dilemma going on in my tank.
<<Let's see if I can help resolve it>>
I have a Condy and a Long Tentacle Anemone in my 55 gal tank
<<Not compatible>>
- I know, wrong thing to do, but as most new salt water aquarists, we didn't do our homework first.
<<Ahh...so you have learned from the experience then?>>
It's been a learning experience for us- with a quickness.
<<Hee-hee!...Indeed>>
Anyway, needless to say, the Condy decided to take a ride with the currents, found itself on top of our fairly large LTA, but we weren't home when their meeting took place.
<<Uh-oh...and the Condylactis Anemone's sojourn was likely due to these animals sensing each other/releasing stinging cells to the water column...>>
We were gone a few hours, but when we came home the LTA was completely pulled inside out I think boot, and tentacles all rolled into one small grey/white ball with tiny tentacles hanging out.
<<Definitely a sign of distress>>
What should I do to help him to get better?
<<Remove the Condylactis...assure optimum water quality>>
For now, I was told to get a strawberry container and cage the Condy until I find him a new home. What is your suggestion?
<<As stated...the animals can/will sense each others presence and have the capacity to wage war from afar. You need to "remove the Condylactis Anemone from the aquarium">>
Anxiously waiting your oh so knowledgeable advice.
Thanks,
Carolyn
<<Glad to be of service. EricR>>

Condylactis vs. Long Tentacle Anemone - 5/28/07
Hi
<Hi Carolyn, Brenda here>
I have a dilemma going on in my tank. I have a Condy and a long tentacle anemone in my 55 gal tank.
<Yikes!>
I know, wrong thing to do, but as most new salt water aquarists, we didn't do our homework first. It's been a learning experience for us- with quickness. Anyway, needless to say, the Condy decided to take a ride with the currents, found itself on top of our fairly large LTA, but we weren't home when their meeting took place.
<How long has your tank been established?>
We were gone a few hours, but when we came home the LTA was completely pulled inside out I think boot, and tentacles all rolled into one small grey/white ball with tiny tentacles hanging out.
<Grey / white ball does not sound good.>
I'm not sure if he is dead or what I should do to help him to get better. For now, I was told to get a strawberry container and cage the Condy until I find him a new home. What is your suggestion?
<You definitely need to separate them. I need more information regarding your tank to know if you are able to support an anemone. The fact that one took a ride in the current tells me something else may be going on. Please give me your equipment list, other tank mates, tank size, age of set up, age of bulbs, and all of your water parameters. A picture of the LTA would also help.>
Anxiously waiting your oh so knowledgeable advice.
Thanks, Carolyn
<You're welcome! Brenda>

One More Thing Re: Condylactis vs. Long Tentacle Anemone - 5/28/07
One more thing...I don't have a 2nd salt water tank...its Memorial Day weekend, fish stores closed, what shall I do in the mean time for my LTA's safety? Can I really cage the Condy with a strawberry container?
<You can, by placing the basket over the anemone. It may be a bit stressful on the anemone. You could also watch it closely while you are at home.>
How many watts of light should we have in our 55 gal tank for anemones?
<It really depends on what type of bulb you are using. Are you using metal halide, T-5 or PC bulb?>
What type/brand do you recommend?
<I prefer metal halide or T-5 bulbs. Any name brand bulb should be fine.>
Also what do you know about brown/ kind of like hair algae growing on all /actually some of our rocks?
<New tank? Brenda>

New Bubble Tip Anemone, New System, Over Stocking – 5/13/07
Hi Bob - Thanks for the site - certainly the first port of call for any
queries.
<Hi Colin, Brenda here!  Thanks for the positive feedback!  I received both of your e-mails and I will answer both together.>
Yesterday we bought a large bubble anemone. On the receipt, it called it a "purple base maroon anemone", but I cannot find references to that on the web.
<Try searching Bubble Tip Anemone and/or Entacmaea quadricolor.>
We were told at the store that the anemone likes to adhere to rocks, rather than the sand at the bottom of the tank. However, when we put it on a rock near the top (to be close to the light) it quickly detached and started floating around.  This was a worry, because we also have a large carpet anemone that seems to be doing fine, and we didn't want the two to come into contact with each other.
<Two different anemone species should not be kept in the same tank.>
Anyway, the anemone seemed to like the gravel at the bottom of the tank better. It became very large indeed (dinner plate size), and even looked as though it may be splitting.  It seemed to be starting to settle. It looked great actually.  But when I got up this morning the entire anemone was sandwiched between two large (40lb) rocks. It has flattened itself out, and is sitting a wide but thin the crevice between the rocks. It does not seem to have reduced its surface area that much - but it is flat like a pancake in the crevice. My guess is that it may be responding to the stress of being manhandled a lot last night.
<I don’t recommend handling the anemone, other than to place into the tank.  There is a lot of stress involved when an anemone is moved from one place to another.  This includes from the LFS to your home.>
But is it dying?
<I don’t know, would have to see a picture.>
Ours is a new system; we finished the cycle three weeks ago, and
everything looks good.
<Ouch!!!!!  New system?  Anemones need stable, established environments.  Most systems take 6 months to a year to become established.>
We have a 120 gallon tank with a 50 gallon refugium. We live on the beach in south Florida so we filled the tank from the sea. Nitrates, nitrites and ammonia all look good. We have a protein skimmer. Circulation is good. When we put the anemone in, we noticed the pH was only 7.8 so we put some buffer in.
<I don’t recommend the use of pH buffers.  You need to be monitoring calcium, alkalinity and magnesium, with a full understanding of their relationship to each other.>
We did a 20% water change about 4 days ago. Also, our temperature might be a bit high at 80-83.
<80 – 81 is fine, anything higher is too warm.>
We have only 4 60W 2 foot fluorescent bulbs providing light. We are working on getting some more light.
<That is not nearly enough lighting for either anemone.  Both of your anemones will quickly decline under your current lighting.>
Over the last three weeks we have put in:
A large carpet anemone, a sail fin tang, a powder brown tang, two saddle back clowns, a volitans lion (not eating dead food yet, but showing promise), 3 sally lightfoot crabs, 2 emerald crabs 15 assorted hermits, + 1 small blue damsel left over from the cycle. Everything has been doing fine.
<You are WAY over stocked for such a new tank.>
Yesterday we added: Two large black percula clowns, they fought a little with the saddles, but seem to have calmed down, pretty much kicked the saddles off the carpet anemone.
<Your system is too small for more than one pair of clownfish.  They will eventually fight until the death of one or more.>
The bubble anemone, Two electric flame scallops (one of these might have come into contact with the anemone.)
<You need to slow down here.  I suggest returning the two anemones.  At this stage in your new system, I recommend keeping no more than the damsel and one pair of the clownfish, at the very most.  Everything else should be returned.  Please search WWM regarding cycling, stocking, toxic water, live stock compatibility, and established systems.>
Thanks for any help, Colin
Second E-mail from Colin:
Bob - Sorry for repeat mail.
I have something to add to my previous mail: part of the anemone can be seen through the back of the tank. The tentacles are somewhat inflated.
<It is stressed, and will only decline.>
It seems to be sucking in one of the scallops. I cannot reach in there to pull off the scallop, and I don’t want to move the rock because it is very heavy, and I will probably damage the anemone.
<Not a good situation you are in.  The anemone will not do well in your system.  Moving it is going to cause stress.  However, removing and returning the anemone is going to be the best option for the long term health of the anemones.>
Thanks again, Colin
<You’re Welcome!  Brenda>

Re: Cinnamon update, iatrogenic troubles    4/30/07
Greetings again!
I thought I would update you on the 36 bowfront. I had the sebae and the carpet with the two cinnamons. with lots of macroalgae planted in the sandbed) Well, there was a "disaster" but not what I was expecting from your advice. As soon as I made up my mind to find a new home for the sebae, The weirdest thing happened. I got up in the morning and inspected the tank, and lo and behold, the decorator crab (approx 6 inches)
<!>
had white "tuffs" of something attached all over his legs....now this little bugger had eaten my scooter blennies so I gave up adding any more creatures to my tank.
<Good>
Any way, my eye caught something floating at the top, and yes, you guessed it, it was the dead sebae.
<...>
I immediately scooped it out and did a water change. When I got home from work that night, all was well. That weekend, I fell totally in love with a huge blood shrimp. I brought him home and acclimated him. He is so beautiful!! My  friends had mentioned that the decorator crab could eat my shrimp (YIKES!)
<Yes>
so I delegated the decorator crab to the sump/refugium of my frag tank and immediately put the word out that he is free to a good home. Now, my sump/refugium was built by a friend and it is modified with a small "box" like area to hold the pump portion of the skimmer so the macroalgae won't be "sucked" into the intake areas of the pump. I thought this was a totally cool modification). The skimmer was not in this boxed area yet, as I am in the process of upgrading my Prizm. Now Sebastian was very happy in the refugium, pulling pieces of macroalgae off and decorating himself. One morning I couldn't find him amongst the prolific Caulerpa (sp?). That fact slipped my mind and several days went by. I finally got in there to trim the macroalgae and poor Sebastian (may he rest in peace) had committed suicide by getting himself stuck in the skimmer "box" area! I fished him out (giving him the appropriate burial at sea so to speak).
That being said, would it be safe to add another blood shrimp to the 36 bowfront?
<Likely so>
To recap, the inhabitants are: 4 inch cinnamon, 2 inch cinnamon, carpet anemone, scissortail damsel, 6 or 7 very large hermit crabs,
<... I would give these away>
(living in turbo snail shells) a mystery hermit, a blood shrimp. some assorted snails and a serpent star. It is filtered by a hang on refugium and a CPR backpack with about 30 pounds of live rock. The female cinnamon is letting the male come around the carpet and he sits on the edge. I don't see him "sleeping" in the carpet, which is probably a good idea since he may become dinner for the carpet since he is so small.
<No... you need to read my friend...>
NOW the female is sleeping UNDER the carpet. (which is attached to the rock approx in the middle portion of the tank) There have been may weeks of courtship dancing, so I don't know if she is trying to lay eggs, or what. In the beginning I just wanted them to get along, but yesterday I ordered every book I could find about clownfish. Thank you again for such a wonder site, and keep up the excellent work!
Julie
<Am endeavouring to do so... Cheers, BobF>

Mixing Anemones and Sessile Inverts.  4/26/07
I have a 155 gal. tank with different polyps, pink branch birdsnest, and xenia.
I have a bulb anemone that has been in my tank for about six mon. I found a rose bulb that I want to trade mine in for. I plan to have more corals nothing fancy just the type I have and maybe a brain, plate, and open brain will an anemone walk around and sting and kill your corals,
<Tis a risk, one that many people take and are happy with....but a risk nonetheless.>
I would hate to pay this much for an anemone just to get rid of it one day.
<Depends on if the risk is worth it, and only you can answer than question. For me personally, it's not a risk I would take again, as I <? RMF>

Puffer and BTA as Tank Mates?  4/18/07
Hi again,
<Hello, Brenda here>  
I had another question, this one about my Saddled Valentini Puffer.  He lives in a FOWLR tank with a fuzzy dwarf lionfish.  I have been considering a BTA, and the puffer tank is the only one without corals so it seemed to be a good choice for the anemone.
<Puffers and anemones should never be kept together.>
I have read that every puffer is different and some may not pick on coral and inverts but others will.  I know that my puffer will eats snails, but there have been polyps and 2 small mushrooms that appeared on the rock and he has never bothered those.  I guess my question should be:  Is there some way to know if my puffer will kill a BTA without just putting one in there and waiting to see?
<It is safe to assume here that it will nip at the anemone.>
I would rather not risk the life of the anemone without some assurance.   This might sound stupid, but what if I put a fake anemone in there and see if he chews on it?  (don't laugh)  I'm hoping that you have a better suggestion.
Carrie
<My only suggestion here is to avoid this combination completely.  Brenda>

Death of LTA Causing Pollution – 3/29/07
Hi crew,
<Hello, Brenda here>
I haven’t written in a while, but have a somewhat urgent question that I can’t find the answer to.  I had a purple long tentacle anemone that mysteriously decided to leave his spot in a rock and apparently somehow tore his foot in the process.  He actually looked as if I had forcibly moved it.  I never touched it by the way.  
<Did it come in contact with a power head?>
Anyway it was injured and then began to go downhill and within a couple of days totally disintegrated, died and had to be removed.  In the process of removing it, it pretty much came apart and many parts of it (very small parts) went everywhere throughout the tank.  
<Yikes!>
The tank is 150 gallon with a large ASM skimmer so I wasn’t too concerned and figured that the skimmer would take care of getting the stuff out of the water, along with the crabs.
<Not necessarily fast enough.  I suggest a large water change also.  I also don’t recommend crabs with anemones.   Crabs have been known to pester and attack these creatures.>
I have no idea what happened to make him move or why he died, but my question really is this:  I have a tube anemone that I have had about two weeks.
<Your tube anemone is likely the reason your LTA decided to move.  You should not house two anemones in one system.>
He has been very active and healthy, stays totally open all the time and looks gorgeous; he has never closed since I have had it.  This morning I get up and the tube anemone is TOTALLY closed.  
<Check your water parameters.>
I have not seen this at all since I got it.  Last night he was wonderful and seemed normal.  Could he be suffering some sort of reaction to the death of the purple anemone?
<Yes, from the pollution.>
I have heard something about toxins getting in the tank when anemones die. Would this have happened and caused the other to have problems?
<Yes, ammonia is extremely toxic.>  
My water parameters were tested the day before the purple anemone died and they were all perfect.  No ammonia, no nitrates, nitrites, phosphates, SG1.024,
<Salinity at 1.026 is best for anemones.>
Temp is always 78-81 night to day and I have lots of light MH and actinic, lots.  The calcium is steady at 440 to 460 and the ph 8.4.  These tests were the day before the purple anemone death; I have not tested this morning. Any help or insight into this would be most helpful.  I don’t want to lose this other anemone too.
<You definitely need to monitor your water parameters closely after something dies.  Have saltwater ready at all times in case of an emergency.>
Thanks,  Debi
<You’re welcome!  Brenda>

Help with Gorgonian and anemone   3/29/07
Hello,
<Hi there>
It was suggested I contact "Fenner or Borneman"
<Mmmm, EricB is elsewhere>
In reference to what seems to be an anemone that came with a "blueberry" gorgonian that I got.  The gorgonian has changed colors and I thought it was dead, but it appears to be growing at the tips, so I don't know if it is dead or some dormant state or shed its tissue or what.
<Mmm, these and many other octocorals can/do change color from lighting, feeding, water quality circumstances...>
  The other question is did the anemone injure or kill the gorgonian?
<Maybe>
I'm told it is a wrapping gorgonian anemone.  Here is the thread where there has been some discussion:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=
<http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1082557>
&threadid=1082557
Any help and/or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rick
<Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/marine/inverts/index.htm
Scroll down to the tray on Anemones, the articles and FAQs toward the bottom there on Aiptasia, Anemonia, Other Pest Anemones. Bob Fenner>

Butterfly Attacking Anemone   3/19/07
Hello
<Hi!  Mich here.>
I love your site and it has helped answer a lot of my questions in  the past.
<Glad to hear!>
However, 2 days ago I stopped into the fish store and since my tank has cycled I was interested in maybe purchasing and anemone. I told the  owners what I had in my tank: only a raccoon butterfly fish and a cleaner shrimp...
<Anemones and Raccoon Butterfly are NOT suitable tank mates.>
I was not really planning on purchasing anything when I came in and  stupidly did not do any research,
<Hopefully, you will not repeat this mistake.>
however, the owner said that they would not bother it and recommended a  Haitian pink tip anemone.
<This is why YOU have to do the research. Anemones are the Raccoon Butterflyfish (Chaetodon lunula) most favorite snack, sort of like chocolate for many women... a temptation too great to resist.  In fact, if a newly introduced Raccoon Butterflyfish is not eating when introduced, one trick to get it to feed is to offer a small anemone.  More here and links in blue:  
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/raccoon.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/condybehfaq.htm  >
At this time I  also purchased a small piece of pulsing xenia with a small piece of  hard coral attached.  
<Anemones are the favorite but no inverts or corals are safe with this fish.  Xenia will likely be eaten also.
More here and links in blue:  http://www.wetwebmedia.com/xeniidarts.htm  >
All seemed fine the day I brought it home and  yesterday but this evening I came home and found my butterfly fish biting my  anemone.
<Yep!>
I threw some Mysis in the tank to try to distract it and then proceeded  to remove the anemone and presently have it in a ventilated plastic box in my aquarium.
<A temporary solution.>
After this I started looking on the Internet and found out that they  are one of their predators, correct?
<Absolutely.>
The anemone is able to attach itself to  the side of the box but on some of its tentacles where it was bitten, it is fine  up until the bite and is all shriveled up and grey and droopy.
<Mmm, yes, is unhappy… lost an appendage...>
I was  wondering if it would be able to recover and what were its chances?
<Hopefully.>
or if  you has any suggestions.
<Yes, return the anemone.  These creatures are, in my opinion, disasters waiting to happen because of their mobile tendency.  Then get the bible:  The Conscientious Marine Aquarist by Robert M. Fenner... read it.  Decide if you want a fish only tank or a reef tank and plan accordingly.>   
Thank you
<Welcome!  -Mich>

Overstocked with Anemones 3/13/07
Hi,
<Hello, Brenda here>
I couldn't find the answer to this, I have looked.  I have a BioCube 29.  It is 4 months old.  It's doing pretty well, except the nitrates are 20.
<Need to be zero.>
We are working on this and have just installed a protein skimmer.
<Good>
I now know not to trust the LFS.
<Excellent!>
They said a Sebae was a hardy anemone.
<It is considered a difficult anemone.  Your tank is not old enough for an anemone.>
It is still a light brown, it looks pretty healthy, but it has picked up and wants to hide behind rocks.  I have been trying to feed it Mysis shrimp with baster.  I can't tell if it's taking it because it closes up kind of.
<Anemones will compress to get the food to their mouth.  Sounds to me like it is eating.>
It's never been sticky since we've had it, about three weeks.
<It’s not a healthy anemone if it is not sticky.  It’s able to hold on to food?  It should be sticky then.>
It also turns upside down or on its side and keeps half way closed.  Its mouth is not gaping.
We have a blue damsel, lawnmower blenny, 2 Turbos, an emerald crab, 2 clowns (Nemos), button polyps, a rock anemone, mushrooms, and a "common" anemone (kind of white with pinkish tips).
<You have too many anemones.  More than one species to a tank will cause problems.  Your tank is also border line for one anemone, unless you are experienced with anemones.    Crabs can not be trusted with anemones.>
Should I take the Sebae back to the store so it can live?
<Yes>
It seemed quite healthy when I got it.  It's a good fish store, it's just that some employees don't know enough it seems.  
<You need to research before you purchase.>
Is my tank too crowded?
<Yes>
It is very peaceful.
<There is likely chemical war going on in a 29 gallon tank housing three anemones.  It is not peaceful.>
Thanks Millions,
Amy
<You’re welcome.  Brenda>

Re:  Overstocked with Anemones 3/13/07
Hello,
I read further before you answered and realized that at the very least, I don't have the light.
<Yes, that is a big problem.>
I just hate the thought of killing something and I have a three year old running around and she doesn't understand I have to read.
<I also hate the thought of something dieing.  Ouch, 3 year old and reading?  I remember those days!  However, you also have a responsibility to the animals that you bring into your home.  Saltwater tanks need attention too.>
We took it back this afternoon.
<Good to hear.>
They thought it was healthy enough, so that's good.  The weird thing though is that I asked about the common anemone and the rock anemone having the chemical warfare like you said and he said "no, it's more of a contact kind of thing".  He also said a white Sebae is fine.  
<Sorry, he lied to you, or he just doesn’t have the knowledge.  I’m sure he has no written documentation to back that statement up.>
It's when they are translucent that it is a problem.
<That is also a problem.  It usually comes right after or with the bleaching, or the expelling of zooxanthellae, which is the same as bleaching.>
He wouldn't argue with me, he just said he doesn't believe in the internet.
<I’m sure he doesn’t.  There is too much information available.  It is likely hurting his business.>
He also said he's one of the best fish breeders in the country.
<He may be one of the best fish breeders in the country.  His fish may be healthy.  Then again, he may not be telling the truth.  A “white” Sebae is far from healthy.>
I understand that everyone has their opinions about what works best, but these two things seem like factual matters.  What's a person to believe?
<You are correct, these are factual matters.  Believe yourself; take some time to do your own research.  I have spent years researching these creatures, and feel confident in the advice I give others.  Have you given any thought to joining a local reef club?>
I believe you guys 100%.  The only thing I will add to my tank is more live rock.  I couldn't get the common anemone off his rock, but I will bring him back too when he does let go.  Do you think those two are fighting and I can't see it?  I can't yank him off, but I can work on it.
<No, yanking on an anemone.  You will tear him.  Try aiming a power head at him to get him to move.  They do not have to be next to each other to sense their presence.>
Since I have you here, do you think I should get rid of the lawnmower?  He does eat flakes and pellets and Mysis.
<They survive on algae.  There are algae type foods that you can give him.>
He was recommended also.  I guess it's a lot of stuff for an employee to know, but I wish they would tell me they don't know if they don't.
<Yes, we all wish that.  Remember, they are they for your money.  Walk in with some knowledge.>
You know, I had a tank over 15 years ago, fish only with one anemone.  He was great for a long time and he had a clown fish.  One day he just died.  Now I know why.  Not enough light.  Things were somewhat different back then.  I'm surprised at all the changes.
<Yes, technology and research has come a long way.>
Really, Thanks a Lot!!
Amy
<You did the right thing Amy!  Remember to research before you buy.  Brenda>

Sebae... anemone, Carpet and Euphyllia, in a 36 gal., oh my!   2/26/07
Hello Wetwebmedia crew!
<Julie>
I recommend your site to all of our fellow reefers, and I use it often myself. Thank you for this vital and informative service.
Now to my question.
I have a 36 gallon bowfront with 96 watt power compacts. I have a carpet anemone
<A dangerously small volume for this/these species>
that hosts a 4 inch cinnamon clown.( I know he is a little large, but I'm a sucker for fish no one wants. He was brought into the fish store as an exchange, and looked so pitiful I adopted him) The are inseparable. Now, I purchased a considerably smaller cinnamon approximately 1.5 inches. He happily adapted to his surroundings, but, being the intelligent little creature he is, he steered clear of the carpet for what I assume are two reasons: the larger cinnamon won't let him anywhere near his carpet, and he didn't want to become lunch for that same carpet.
<All take time to "become familiar"... as you're likely aware>
So, he persistently rubbed all three heads off of my frogspawn. (sigh).
<Yikes... this Euphylliid is in this small volume with a Carpet?>
I purchased a sebae anemone for him and both are happily living in the opposite corner of the tank after a period of traveling around finding just the right spot.
<A time bomb...>
Now, my question is, after reading about coloration of the sebae, mine is the "stark white" color with purple tips.
<Bleached...>
It has been this way since purchase approximately 2 months ago. The carpet was a very white color also when I purchased it a year ago, but since turned a dingy brownish color. (after reading up on anemones, I assume this is a good thing)
<Mmm, yes... is improving.... reincorporating zooxanthellae...>
Now, the sebae settled down at the bottom of the tank and has remained there for the last couple of weeks. It looks full and healthy, but the color concerns me. Will it take on the dingy brown color like my carpet?
<Perhaps in time... but much more likely you will have an extreme-enough allelopathogenic event here... with the clowns being killed, and all else... with one of the anemones being last "to go">
Both anemones eat small chopped up "prime reef" and "squid" about once a week or longer. I have a hob refugium and a CPR backpack with 1/3 of the space being taken up with live rock. I also have quite a bit of macro algae growing in the tank (rooted in the sand)
<Good... this gear and the algae have forestalled the event mentioned above>
various snails and hermits, a cleaner shrimp, a decorator crab and small black scissor tailed damsel. (oh I almost forgot a brittle star that I only see with the flashlight when lights are out). This tank has never had anything expire in it save for the occasional war over a shell between a hermit and snail. About six months ago I had an outbreak of brown algae, which the snails cleaned up promptly and still keep everything nice and clean.
So do you think my sebae being so white will "color up" given more time?
<I think all will die if the anemones are not separated>
I was quite surprise to read where the white color is not a good thing, since every single sebae I have seen at the local fish stores are the stark white color with the purple tips that look exactly like mine.
Thank you for all that you do for our hobby (i.e.-read here addiction)
Julie B
<Please read here (heeee!): http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anemcompfaqs.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Anemone vs. Xenia...Help!   2/20/07
My anemone relocated right next to my zennia.
<Uh-oh.>
It keeps taking the  zennia <xenia> in
its mouth and now some of the zennia branches are dropping of as they  act like they have been strangled.
<They are being attacked both physically and chemically.>
  I don't know how to move the anemone or  the zennia.<xenia>
<I would suggest searching WWM re fragging the xenia...it is my opinion that the anemone would be more difficult in forcefully removing the anemone (if it has "rooted"). Another option is relocating the entire rock to another "more undesirable" spot in the tank to encourage the anemone to move elsewhere. Unfortunately this is one of the possible outcomes when you mix moving cnidaria like anemones and sessile invertebrates.>
please advise.  thanks you
<Adam J.>

Mandarin & anemone compatibility   2/20/07
Hi,
I'm currently setting up a 75 gallon aquarium. I've just finished building my 29 gallon sump, and am going to drill my tank for the plumbing in the next week. I plan on getting about 100 pounds of live rock. I'll put like 5 or so pounds in the sump so pods can reproduce. I also have a refugium area in the sump to grow some macro.
Ever since I saw a mandarin I've wanted one. They're awesome looking creatures. I think that I should have enough food for a mandarin (after waiting about a year for the pod population to go up of course). I have also always wanted a clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris) and anemone pair. Now, onto my questions.
A bubble-tip anemone will host a clown right? Can one large anemone host two clownfish?
I thought that I read on your site somewhere that you shouldn't mix an anemone and a mandarin because the mandarin can fall victim to the anemone. Is this true? If it is, can you attempt to place the anemone away from most of the rock in the tank so the mandarin is less likely to go near or sleep next to the anemone?
I'm still a ways away from getting water in my tank, let alone getting fish or inverts. Planning is always a good thing though.
Thanks in advance,
Joe
<<Joe: Most likely you heard something about not mixing carpet anemones with Mandarins.  Mandarins are slow and tend to hang out at the bottom of a tank and carpets are very sticky.  When you are ready, your best bet for a starter anemone would be a Bubble Tip Entacmaea quadricolor clone that has split in another Reefkeeper's tank.  They are pretty hardy and you won't be trying to take care of an anemone that was just pulled out of the ocean. The Bubble Tip will tend to stay high up on your rocks near the lights.  Thus, there is less of a chance that the Mandarin would bump into it. Regarding the clowns, if you can purchase captive bred ones which have been raised with anemones, your clowns will host right away.  If not, it could take months for the clowns to host, if ever.  If you have the anemone already established in the tank when you introduce the clowns, I think your hosting chances will improve.  Depending on its size, a Bubble Tip anemone can host multiple clowns.  Mine host up to 4 at a time. Best of luck, Roy>>

Condylactis gigantea, BTA, Entacmaea Quadricolor Problems – 2/8/07
<Brenda here>
I have a 55 gal reef tank.  I have about 90 lbs of sand, 100lbs of live rock, Fuji. I have 384 watts of actinic and 2-250 watts of halide.
<That’s a lot of light!>
I have in there now a porcelain crab, 4 hermits, 2 red skunk cleaners, 3 Clarkii clowns, 1 zebra Turbo snail and plenty Nassarius snails about 25, 1 Condylactis gigantea purple tip. I just added a mushroom coral, a Rhodactis, it is a leather, and a Rose Bubble Tip anemone.
<Yikes!  You need to decide which anemone you want to keep, and remove the other.  Also three clowns in your system will result in problems as they mature.  I suggest removing one clown also.>
I put her in 3 days ago all levels ok.
<Please list actual test results next time.>
When I first put it in she moved across the rocks on one side that I have set up for the anemone away from the Condi anemone.  She found a place up side down and close to a power head so I turned the rock so she would face the lighting and away from being really close to the power head.
<Your anemone will move where it is the happiest.  It was also under stress when introduced to its new home, moving it will only add more stress.  It also needs time to adjust to its new environment, including the lighting.  It was most likely under much less lighting before it reached your tank.  If those power heads are not covered to protect your anemone, it will eventually get sucked in and shredded.>
She was doing ok, still showing her trunk and tentacles still small.
<It may be hungry.  Feed meaty foods such as silversides, krill, Mysis shrimp or raw shrimp.>
Then she extended more and the second day her tentacles had got some what bigger still showing her trunk. She had a little to eat and then the third morning its mouth is open tentacles small trunk very small. What could be causing this activity?
<It definitely needs to be separated from the Condylactis.  Mixing anemones is never a good idea.  It will cause chemical war between the two.  Without a picture of the anemone when you first got it, it’s impossible to tell if you purchased a healthy one.  There was no mention of the age of your set up.  It is recommended that a tank be a minimum of six months old and stable before adding an anemone.  Please search WetWebMedia for more information on these anemones.  It sounds like you may have a couple of things going on here.   Brenda>