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FAQs about
Hang-On, Overflow Box, J-Tube Selection
Related Articles:
Overflow Box Arrangements, Plumbing Marine Systems,
Plumbing
Return Manifolds, Refugiums,
Related FAQs: Overflows 1, Overflows 2,
Overflows 3,
Overflows 4,
& FAQs on: Rationale/Use,
Sizing, Through-Hull Fittings,
Plumbing,
Troubleshooting/Repair...
Marine Plumbing 1, Marine
Plumbing 2, Marine Plumbing 3, Marine
Plumbing 4, Marine Plumbing 5, Marine
Plumbing 6, Plumbing 7, Plumbing
8, Plumbing 9, Plumbing
10, Plumbing 11, Plumbing
12, Plumbing 13, Plumbing
14,
Plumbing 15,
Plumbing 16,
Plumbing 17, Plumbing 18,
Holes & Drilling,
Durso Standpipes,
Make Up
Water Systems, Pumps, Plumbing,
Circulation, Sumps,
Refugiums, Marine
Circulation 2, Gear
Selection for Circulation, Pump
Problems, Fish-Only
Marine Set-ups, Fish-Only
Marine Systems 2, FOWLR/Fish and
Invertebrate Systems, Reef Systems, Coldwater
Systems, Small Systems, Large
Systems, Water Changes, Surge
Devices,
|
They clog very often and need regular cleaning. The clogging can/will
cause the tank to overflow and perhaps your return pump to run dry. |
Re: Overflow/Plumbing Question 4/23/08
Scott,
A few last questions if you don't mind.
<No problem.>
For a redundant overflow box for my tank (knowing what I already have), what
size do you recommend? There is an Eshopps PF-800 single intake (800 gph) for up
to 125 gallon tank, the Eshopps PF-1000 dual intake (900 gph) for up to 200
gallon tank, and I found one on eBay made by CFL Aquatics that is a dual intake
1200 gph model. Do I need a dual intake, or can I get by with a single intake
800 gph?
<A dual intake would be better for redundancy’s sake even within the one box.>
One thing I'm a bit worried about in sizing this up is this--will adding a
second overflow necessarily increase the volume of water that flows into my
sump, or is it only that my system is now capable of delivering more flow to my
sump (is this just a question of what goes in can only do so as fast as it goes
out?).
<You are increasing your flow capability. If you do not increase your sump
return output you will not increase the actual flow.>
My reason for asking is, if one overflow box fails and your pump is putting
water back in the tank faster than your redundant box is capable of handling,
what happens (I know the answer)?
<Yep, water on the floor. The idea of redundancy it to flow what each box can
handle should the other box fail.>
I guess my question really is, how do you know that your return flow is never
more than what any one of your boxes can handle?
<Pump ratings and knowing what your boxes will actually flow (not what the
manufacturer claims) is a fair estimate. The only surefire way is to try each
box one at a time to actually see if it can handle it. This can be pain, but you
only have to do it once.>
I do intend to purchase a level controller that will kill my pump in the event
the tank starts to
overflow.
<This is really not needed with overflows setup as discussed above, but an
interesting idea towards an extra safety check.>
Thanks again!
Andy
<Welcome, Scott V.>
|
Overflow Question (External
Overflow Box) – 04/16/08
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I’m in the planning stage of starting a salt water aquarium.
<<Ah! One of the more exciting aspects…along with building, stocking, watching,
enjoying…aw heck, it’s “all” exciting!>>
I want to go with an acrylic tank as it seems to be easier to modify with DIY
projects without having to worry about the glass being tempered and whatnot.
<<Tis true…though both materials (glass and acrylic) have their virtues…and
downfalls>>
Anyways, my question is about the overflow. Every design I've seen or read about
uses either unhidden bulkheads in the back/bottom or some sort of cover using
vertical teeth routed in the acrylic. What are your thoughts about a horizontal
hole routed in the back of the tank draining into an external overflow box?
<< By “horizontal hole” I assume you mean a “slot” routed horizontally along the
panel. I have seen pictures of such installations…and came VERY close to going
this route I was building my own system, but being an in-wall installation, I
just didn’t have the needed clearance around the tank. And to answer your
question… With some thought to design and construction, I think an “external”
overflow is a fine idea>>
If I used say a 3/8" router bit, would that be a small enough gap to prevent
critters from getting out of the tank?
<<3/8” is larger than you need…I would be inclined to go with ¼” or even 3/16”
depending on the length/number of slots>>
What sort of water flow through that hole could I expect if I made it say 1 foot
long?
<<The “area” of a 3/8” slot that is 12” long is about 4.5”…almost as much area
as a 2.5” hole. I would think this would allow a “safe” gravity-flow rate of
some 1600gph or so. Even a ¼” slot of that length still has an area of 3”…which
is just under the area of a 2” bulkhead>>
In my search I found only 1 post that really addressed this sort of setup and
the criticism focused on the possibility of the box falling off...presumably on
a glass tank. On acrylic, it is essentially welded on correct?
<<If done correctly/well, yes…the molecules of each become “mingled” and the two
would become one. And this is reason enough to do your research/homework before
attaching the overflow box since any attempt at removal to correct a mistake
will require machining the box off>>
My main reason for wanting it this way is so I can just sink a pump in the
overflow box for a closed-loop and still have room for a couple drains down to
the sump.
<<Faulty logic here, mate. Aside from the inherent balancing problems here of
“sharing” water/applications…placing the pump in the overflow box does NOT
constitute a “closed-loop.” This would be an “open” system…and to properly
“power” the return manifold would likely require flow rates that would be
impractical to this application. Another problem with this design is if the
return pump were to fail/stop while the pump in the overflow is still running,
the water will drain below the overflow and result in damage to the other pump>>
This hopefully would give me a high water circulation rate for the tank without
the noise from running all that water all the way down to the sump and back
while still avoiding an unsightly intake tube in the tank.
Thoughts/Ideas?
<<The idea of an external overflow for a sump-water return system is fine, in my
opinion…and can even be utilized with a return-manifold if you like…but the high
flow rates needed and expected for a true “closed-loop” application (e.g. -
minimum of 650gph for EVERY ¾” nozzle) make it, or any type, of gravity overflow
impractical for this use in most home applications. A closed-loop requires a
“dedicated” water supply line>>
Thanks,
Ryan
<<My pleasure to share. Eric Russell>>
Re: Overflow Question
(External Overflow Box) – 04/17/08
Hi Eric,
<<Hello, Ryan>>
Thanks for the advice.
<<I hope it was of some use>>
I guess a little clarification is in order.
<<Yes, please…and thank you for this>>
I am currently planning on getting a 60G 24" cube. My closed-loop plan
is really a 2 outlet SCWD hopefully providing around 10-15 x turnover
while my return pump provides around 5x-ish (3-5x through the sump is
what I’ve been reading right?).
<<Yes>>
The overflow box would have Durso standpipes so the water would drain
from a higher elevation and not the bottom of the overflow box (assuming
the pipes/bulkheads don’t fail).
<<Ah, okay…so the pump for the loop would be positioned at the bottom of
the box well “below” the water-line. Hmm…>>
I would make them high enough that the SCWD pump was permanently
underwater even if the return fails.
<<Yes, I understand now… You might be able to pull this off. But…do keep
in mind that the SCWD pump will continue to circulate water through the
overflow box when the sump pump is off…if the standpipe drain level is
“lower” than the slot through which the water feeds to the overflow box,
water will continue to drain to the sump (or on to the floor if the sump
doesn’t have room for the extra capacity!) until the level in the tank
no longer reaches the slot…once this happens, the SCWD pump will pump
the overflow box dry, possibly resulting in damage to the pump.
Constructing the box and standpipes such that the “working” water height
is above the feed slot should resolve this issue…but that means the
water going to the overflow box won’t be “skimmed” from the surface.
Another option is to provide slots at both the top and bottom of the
overflow box (much like many commercial internal units are fitted). This
would allow surface water to be skimmed to go to the sump, yet also
allow the overflow box to remain “flooded” when the sump pump is off>>
I guess my main fear is that if the SCWD pump were to fail/leak it would
already be in a wet zone and not draining all over my floor.
<<Tis true…but with well constructed “hard” plumbing and a quality
external pump this is of little concern, in my opinion>>
I’ve got a pretty serious wood shop in my garage and don’t have much
worry about cutting and building the overflow box to tight enough
tolerances (after a little acrylic gluing practice).
<<Ah! Excellent… (I built my shop off the back of my garage…the Mrs. was
tired of parking in the driveway [grin])…and I do like having “heat and
air”>>
My main concerns with the length and width of the slot would be to keep
critters out while providing a diffused suction zone
<<Yes>>
...also how far from the top of the tank should I make it (If I go this
route) to maintain the structural integrity of the back wall?
<<This is a good question and a valid concern…and I do wish to make
known/reiterate that I haven’t actually built one of these systems
myself. But of the few designs and pictures of working systems I’ve
seen, the exact position of the holes/slots in relation to the height of
the tank didn’t appear to be much of an issue…though I must say these
were new setups so I don’t know what the long-term effects have been.
The height/position of the slot(s) should be determined by your desired
working water height in the display. But of more concern here to the
structural integrity of the tank than the position of the slot is the
“length” of the slot. I would suggest cutting a series of shorter slots
whose “combined” length will provide the desired flow capacity, leaving
a small web of material between each slot…in other words instead of one
12” long slot, cut three 4” slots leaving a 1.5” space between these.
Also…make sure the ends of each slot are round (circles) and not
squared-off else stress fractures will likely occur (drilling the
appropriately sized hole at each slot-end and then “routing” from one
hole to the other makes this a simple matter). Cutting the series of
shorter slots will still give the same overall flow capacity of a single
longer slot, but the intact material between each will yield a stronger
structure. Do also consider that the attachment/solvent-welding of the
overflow box to the outside of the back panel around the slot cutouts
will also afford some structural integrity to this location (I would be
inclined to use at least ½” material for this). You might also consider
adding a strip of acrylic the width of the tank and overlapping the
slots by a couple inches top and bottom to beef-up (double?) the
thickness of the tank wall in this area for more strength (I would add
this first and then drill and route the slots through the beefed-up
panel). This may all sound like overkill…and I do always tend to
“over-engineer” my projects a bit…but it helps me sleep better… [grin]
>>
How close to the sides do you think I can safely go?
<<It may be a moot point with the previously mentioned
considerations…but still…I would leave an inch or two of clearance
here>>
If it’s a 24" back wall could I get away with an 18" slot? 20"?
<<Depends…and will take a little calculating…but the “total” slot length
will depend on the size and number of individual slots, while taking in
to consideration the needed clearances between these and the sides of
the tank. But whatever you come up with…my recommendation is to make no
single slot more than 4” in length and to maintain a minimum of 1”
between slot-ends and side-walls>>
So with your previous numbers I should safely be able to expect around
1600 gph which is just shy of 27x flow.
<<For 3/8” slots that measure 12” en toto, yes, the math would seem to
bear this out>>
If I shoot for 20x turnover total I should have a margin of safety.
<<Now you’re thinking! [grin]… Always best to allow for extra/not to
“max-out” flow capacity>>
Is it enough?
<<Probably…but is best determined by the species/apparent health of the
organisms kept>>
I guess to be really safe I should have the capacity for double whatever
I plan on eh? Around 35-40x.
<<If practical to accomplish>>
Thanks,
Ryan
<<Happy to assist, mate…do please keep me in the loop on this, I am very
interested to know how this project goes. And if you wish to discuss
more…you know where to find me. Regards, Eric Russell>>
|
Wanted to Share Positive Experience with
Recommended Vendor... 12/06/2007
WWM,
<Hi Paul, Mich here.>
I just wanted to share a very positive experience with a vendor that you pointed
me towards - glass-holes.com. I have no affiliation with them, other than being
a satisfied customer.
<Very good.>
I was looking for internal overflow box for 120g tank, and you suggested I take
a look at their website. Mike and the crew at glass-holes.com talked to me a
number of times via email and telephone (yes, telephone - nice, personal touch)
to help me figure out exactly what I needed. They even called the wholesale-only
manufacturer of my tank and talked to the tank builder to find out if the rear
wall glass was tempered or not (the manufacturer does a good job of hiding its
contact info from the general public... been a while since a Google search was
not productive....).
<Resources are good.>
The overflow box they shipped to me was custom ordered and the workmanship was
flawless. To anyone comparing overflow boxes built into tanks by the
manufacturers vs. something like I got - there is no comparison. No cheap, thin
black plastic used. It is 1/4" acrylic, beautifully crafted. The bulkheads
supplied are nice and thick (reminds me of the spa jets I put in - thick and
sturdy to stand up to high pressure and heat of a 2hp Pentair pump and 400,000
BTU heater). The glass drill bit worked perfectly, and their website had helpful
hints that really took a lot of fear out of a DIY project that might make a few
queasy (i.e. drilling a glass aquarium). Heck, they also included a t-shirt (I
know...free advertising/marketing... but custom t-shirts still cost a couple
bucks to produce).
<Yes, both potentially win... that is if you wear the t-shirt.>
You can't beat the prices...about 1/3 to 2/3 the price of the other two custom
manufacturers I could find on the web. Their drill bits are the cheapest I could
find, and their bulkhead/plumbing prices are very reasonable.
All in all, the folks at WWM should feel more than comfortable sending people
over to glass-holes.com. They will treat your viewers right.
<Thank you for sharing your positive experience. I'm sure it will benefit others
as well.>
Paul
<Cheers, Mich>
Quietflo Hurricane overflow 9/13/07
Hello Crew:
First, thanks for all of your hard work. Collectively you are one of the top
resources on the web. (I think that's high praise, so I hope you do, too!)
<Indeed>
I have searched your site high and low for an answer to this question, but have
come up empty each time. Do any of you have any experience with the Quietflo
overflow box manufactured by Hurricane filters?
<I do not... but see it here: http://store.hurricanefilters.com/quprov.html>
I am obviously in the market for an overflow box and am deciding between the
LifeReef, AMiracle and the Hurricane Quietflo. I know (via your site) Lifereef's
reputation for quality, but am balking at paying $200 for a double box.
Hence the Quietflo--it utilizes the same design as the Lifereef, but is less
than half the cost (~$75). The pictures I have found make it appear that the
quality is good, but I don't feel comfortable judging by their pictures alone.
Any help would be greatly appreciated, and thanks again for all of your hard
work!
Sincerely,
Mike Delcomyn
<Well... I and a few others here are not fans of such hang on technology... as
opposed to drilled/gravity overflows... I would definitely get/use two if going
this route... to avoid flooding should/when the one fails. Bob Fenner>
Sand In The Overflow Boxes? –
07/30/07
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I am setting up a 135-gallon Oceanic "Reef Ready" aquarium with their standard
overflows/returns in the back corners. I am planning on plumbing the 1" holes
with Durso standpipes and the 3/4" with returns.
<<Mmm, okay...will achieve an optimum turnover of about 600gph or so>><RMF would
say "maximum" rather than optimum>
Would there be any advantage/problem with dumping six-inches of sand at the
bottom of the overflow around the pipes?
<<I wouldn’t...will make it exceedingly difficult/messy to
service/remove/reinstall the overflow/standpipes should the need arise>>
I'm new to this stuff but it seems like every bit of filtration helps and the
space seems, while not huge, not insignificant (or maybe it is!).
<<Would have little impact re Nitrate reduction I think...not worth the hassle>>
I really love your site.
<<Thank you...a collective effort>>
I feel fortunate to have found it in time. I was in the process of jumping into
this too quickly without enough thought and planning.
<<Tis indeed fortunate then>>
I now spend my free time reading mainly your site, some other internet sites
(esp. Reef Central), and books recommended by you (Love the CMA!).
<<Is always best to research/obtain information from more than one source>>
It is more complicated than I originally thought, but exciting!
<<A wonderful hobby, agreed>>
So much to learn, so little time........
<<Mmm, not so... Now “is the time” to make/take the time to learn it/do it
right>>
Thanks,
GaryC
<<Regards, EricR>>
Hang-On Overflow Noise (Water Volume vs. Pipe Diameter) – 05/14/07
I just upgraded my 29 gal reef to a CPR100 overflow and draining into a 10
gal sump. I decided to hard pipe the overflow in with 3/4pvc and two
elbows. No matter how I position the straight down tube into the sump sock I
get the constant sucking and releasing sound in the box.
<<You are likely trying to push too much water through the overflow. The 1”
bulkhead that comes with the overflow will only handle about 300gph (yeah, I
know they are rated for more flow...just not practical), by reducing the output
diameter to ¾” as you have done with the PVC pipe you have reduced the flow
capacity even more to about 150gph or so...which is more than enough, by the
way, for this tank/sump combination in my opinion>>
Will the Durso pipe solve this problem of noise?
<<I have seen what looks like a modified/compact version of the “Stockman”
standpipe for hang-on overflow boxes (see here: http://www.aquariumlife.net/projects/diy-overflow/74.asp),
but whether or not it will help is probably a matter of trial and error. It may
help smooth flow a bit but if you are getting a surge effect as you describe you
will probably have to back off on the pump output from the sump (easily
accomplished with a gate-valve plumbed in-line after the pump)>>
Even if I put the sump pipe under water it still makes and ton of noise and I am
really trying to understand this problem. I want the tank to run with the least
amount of noise as possible and the splashing in the sump will be easy to fix if
I can get the overflow to stop sucking and making gurgling noises. Any other
suggestions?
Thanks.
Will
<<Definitely sounds like a case of too much water volume coupled with a too
small throughput diameter to me. Regards, EricR>>
Re: Hang-On Overflow Noise (Water Volume vs. Pipe Diameter) – 05/15/07
Question regarding the 3/4 PVC.
<<Ok>>
I am trying to get some clarification on what sizes I have used.
<<...?>>
The 1'' bulkhead accepts a schedule-40 3/4'' connection piece and then goes to
1" elbow.
<<Mmm, no...the 1” bulkhead will utilize 1” pipe/fittings...a 1” ell will
require 1” pipe. If you have used ¾” pipe then you either have ¾” fittings and
bulkhead, or you have use 1” to ¾” reducer fittings>>
I noticed that the 1" PVC pipe is the same size as ¾” fittings.
<<The outside diameter of 1” PVC pipe is very close to the outside diameter of a
¾” PVC fitting, yes...but in no way are the two compatible without the proper
reducer fittings>>
Why is this.
<<The ¾” fitting must be large enough to fit around the outside diameter of the
¾” pipe...and a 1” fitting for 1” PVC pipe is noticeably larger by comparison>>
Basically I am saying that 1" pipe fits in 1'" bulkheads but the 1" is really ¾”
in order to fit in that space.
<<No...>>
This is confusing to me and makes me wonder what size I hard piped mine in
with. Please advise.
<<If you used “all” 1” PVC fittings and pipe then figure your flow based on a 1”
diameter drain...if you used ¾” pipe or fittings (even just one) in combination
with the 1” PVC pipe and fittings, then figure your flow based on a ¾” diameter
drain>>
Also my Mag 5 with head pumps about 300 gal/hr and I was wondering if the
gate-valve would be alright to use to restrict flow from the pump?
<<Absolutely...the way these magnetic pumps are designed/work makes them very
compatible for use with a gate-valve for tempering flow>>
Thanks for your help.
Will
<<Happy to share. Eric Russell>>
Overflow Box Pump... Bizarre ap.? 5/21/06
Good Afternoon WWM Crew!
<Good morrow Josie>
I have a question about Tom's Aquatics Aqua Lifter - Dosing Pump and Tom's
Aquatics Aqua Lifter Suction Pre-Filter.
<http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=3240008336083&lang=en-US&mkt=en-US&FORM=CVRE>
I brought these to maintain the flow through the overflow box.
<? How?>
I had a Toms Aquatics Aqua Lifter - Dosing Pump already, but it was beginning
to go out and didn't provide enough flow for the overflow box to keep water
flow, so we decided to get a new one. Well, we find out that you should use the
Tom's Aquatics Aqua Lifter Suction Pre-Filter in addition to the Aqua Lifter -
Dosing Pump. The problem is, there are no directions for installation so we
just did what we thought was correct. We had the middle connector of filter to
the intake on the pump. Then the outside was attached to the overflow box. The
problem is, when we did this, the flow in the overflow box decreased
significantly. I did notice that the prefilter is pulling stuff out of the
water, so I do believe that it is doing what it is supposed to. It is also
still keeping the overflow box
primed but the flow is very low. Can you tell me if I am doing this right or is
it supposed to be a slower flow?
<... I don't think this gear is useful here... in this application. This is a
dosing pump... and an in-line filter... not intended for recirculation... or any
attachment to an overflow...>
It is quite loud with the Pre-Filter attached as well. It's almost as if there
is air in the filter or something that it can't clear out. Any suggestions??
<... Contact Tom's and ask them... And read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/marsetupindex2.htm
Scroll down... read re Marine Plumbing, Overflows...>
By the way, the lionfish that I wrote about a month or two ago is back to not
eating. It's almost as if he is starving himself on purpose. We still add
trace minerals to the water to prevent lock jaw again, but this time it's
different. He shows zero interest in food. All the other fish in the tank eat
as normal and all seem quite healthy. We have tried multiple times to
hand/force feed the lionfish. We try daily with no results. I have read that
sometimes lionfish do this and starve themselves to death. Thanks much!
Josie
<See elsewhere on WWM re Lionfish Foods/Feeding/Nutrition. Bob Fenner>
Online Source for Internal Overflow Boxes - 6/10/06
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I have a quick question, I have a 150 gallon drilled glass aquarium and I need
new overflow boxes and I can't seem to find a place to get them. Can you give
me a website to buy them from?
<<Sure! Have a look here:
http://www.wetdryfilter.com/internal_overflow_boxes.htm >>
Thank you for your help.
<<Welcome, EricR>>
Overflow Questions 6/1/06
Hello Bob and the WWMC,
<James with you today.>
I hope all is well and Hawaii was fascinating (jealous).
<Talking for Bob, Hawaii is always fascinating, something different on every
dive, correct, Bob?> <<Mmm, yes, but back in sunny southern Cal. now>>
I am starting to plumb my 50 gallon sump and refugium to my 150 gallon all
glass tank and looking for some expert advice.
I will make this quick because I know you are all very busy.
Is it possible to connect three separate hang on overflows (1) 900 gph and (2)
1400 gph to one central 3" drain pipe with vent?
<Yes, a three inch drain will handle this, but why on earth do you need that
much flow for a 150 gallon tank? Problem is, if the
pump is not sized close to the gpm of the overflows, you will always have
problems with air in the "U" tubes. So, at least a 3200 gpm
pump would be needed...That's going to be an awful lot of water moving in your
tank unless you are trying to establish a tsunami biotope. Ten to fifteen times
the tank volume is sufficient. You would be well over 20 times. Tell the fish
to hang on for dear life.>
The over flows planned positions are... a 1400 gph at each end of the tank
with the 900 gph in the center.
Thank you again for your time,
<You're welcome. James (Salty Dog)>
Mark
Re: Overflow Questions 6/1/06
Hello Crew and James,
<Hello Mark>
Thanks for the quick response. <You're welcome.> Hopefully these answers to your
questions help clear up what I am trying to achieve.
The return pump will be a Mag Drive 36 external , with a 1" schedule 80 pipe
(true 1" I.D.) return to a manifold system.
The manifold will have 8 outlets, if my calculations are correct I have 14 feet
of head loss, total loss of 4.86 psi. Taking this into account, this leaves 852
gph of return divided by the 8 outlets, which equals 106 gph at each nozzle.
If you think it is necessary, I can branch off the return line and with another
gate valve control the flow back into the refugium or skimmer chamber. Sump flow
is as follows, skimmer, 3 baffles, refugium, 3 baffles, return.
<A bit more clearer, Mark. Think you should be fine here. Do employ a gate
valve at the pump to allow you to throttle down if necessary. A return line
back to the pump shouldn't be necessary. If you want to double check your
calculations, here is a link for you. http://www.reefcentral.com/calc/hlc2.php
James (Salty Dog)>
Thanks Again for your time.
<You're welcome>
Mark
- Overflow Box and Power Failure 6/27/06 -
Hi Bob/ staff,
<Hi.>
I have joined a forum so I have been bothering you guys less lately, but even
the members of the reef tank. com can't answer this one. Here goes.
Ok, I have a hang on overflow on the 29. The overflow is by ProClear and has the
overflow box with slits and a u tube that carries that water to the pre filter
on the back. <Very common design.>
suppose this happens. The power fails for an extended period while am away. So
the overflow will keep draining water into the sump until the water level drops
below the slots, no biggie. But then the power comes back on and the return pump
is working again. So all that water gets pumped back and it fills the overflow
box slits. Will there still be a siphon or will the tank flood until the sump
empties and the return pump blows out? <There should be if both ends of the
U-Tube are submerged. This is something you can and should test by simply
unplugging the return pump.>
the second box that hangs on the outside of the tank is designed to retain water
if no new water is coming in because the standpipes comes up a few inches and
the u tube gets submerged in their. But I don't know because if water doesn't
come into those slots in the internal box, and all the remaining water gets
sucked up by the u tube, wont it suck air and have no siphon? <It doesn't start
moving until water flowing into the slotted (tank-side) box.> I'm really worried
so if it will loose siphon, what can I do to prepare or prevent the possible
flooded floor, blown out return pump, and likely fire? <Well for starters,
everything electrical in and around your tank should be plugged into a GFCI
outlet. That will remediate any possible fire dangers. Otherwise, I think you
should unplug your main pump and see what happens. I think you will be
surprised. Over the long haul, just keep the U-Tube clean as this is the weak
link in the chain.> Remember to look closely at the picture provided in the
link. <Am very familiar with this design; have sold more than I care to count.>
Thanks
John
<Cheers, J -- >
Overflow box/es...? 7/31/06
I am in the final stages of setting up a 157 gal reef tank. Besides the tank
volume it will also have a 40 gal sump. I bought a Iwaki pump rated at 1100 gph.
My question is how large of a overflow box should I purchase (I know a drilled
tank would be best but one buys what one gets a great buy on) Should I purchase
one rated at 1100 gph or one larger and then adjust it to the flow I need.
Thanks
Robert
<I would purchase/use two such designated flow devices, if not re-consider having
the tank drilled... Much to discuss... Please read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/overfloboxfaqs.htm
and the linked files above where you'll lead yourself, till you feel confident
re what your choices are, your best direction here. Bob Fenner>
Hang-on-tank Prefilter/Overflow boxes 11/21/06
Hello,
<Hi Michael, JustinN here with you tonight.>
I have a 75 gallon display tank and would like to use my 38 gallon tank as a
sump/refugium beside it. I am considering the Lifereef prefilter box to move
water into the sump and a mag drive pump to return it to the display tank. I
want to make sure that the Lifereef is the best option to avoid floods during a
siphon break. I will also use two check valves on the return line to avoid a
reverse siphon. Please let me know if this is a reliable product.
Thank you.
Michael
<Well, Michael, I can't speak specifically towards this specific product,
however, with overflow boxes, its a good idea to go with 2 overflows with flow
control for redundancy. Assuming the output is adequate for your envisioned
setup, I would imagine this product to be sufficient. Hope this helps! -JustinN>
Siphon Overflows
Hello,
<<Howdy>>
I had a question about possible flooding with hang on overflow boxes, since I
live on the second floor of an apartment building am a little concerned.
<<And rightly so...>>
I have a 75 gal tank with 2 CPR CS90 overflows, a 20 gallon sump, with a
MagDrive 7 pump. My question is would it be possible to use an auto top off
device connected to the return pump with the sensor sitting high in the tank
keeping the pump constantly running, if for some reason I had a siphon break,
the sump would then fill the main tank triggering the float switch, shutting
down the return pump and avoiding a flood. Would this work and if not do you
have any other suggestions for me?
<<In theory maybe, but float switches can fail too. Is good that you have two
overflow boxes...do have a read through our FAQs re: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ovrfloboxfaq2.htm
>>
Thanks a lot for your time, Chris
<<Regards, EricR>>
Durso Standpipe in an external (hang on) overflow box
1/31/06
Hi,
<Howdy>
I have a 1 1/4 DIY Durso standpipe in an hang on overflow box. I
purchased the overflow box from my LFS. The box did not lose siphon in
a simulated power
outage before I installed the Durso, but now it does.
<Yikes, or potential yikes>
The water is siphoned from the inside chamber too fast and siphon
breaks.
<Yep>
I have tried to extend the U tube way below the intake from the Durso,
but to no avail. I can't even get the U tube to hold siphon with the
power off. It
seems there isn't proper equilibrium between the inside and outside
boxes.
Any advice is appreciated,
Thanks!
<... Well, there are plumbing arrangements that can be fashioned as a
work-around repair here, but they require a bunch of space... more than
you likely have. There are other solutions... that call for something
other than the Durso you have situated here... and these are posted...
you guessed (!) on WWM. Bob Fenner>
- Setting Up a Durso Standpipe -
Hello, I went yesterday and bought all the parts for the Durso standpipes. I have a 1" bulkhead and got all the parts according to the instructions. Problem, I just assumed these items would fit into my overflow, they didn't. I think I might be able to get the 1"
PVC, street elbow, tee to fit inside, but the 1-1/4" will not fit for sure.
<Ok.>
I read on the website that using 1" PVC is not effective, my tank is roughly 60 gallons.
<One inch should work... given the fact that you probably won't have nutty recirculation on a tank of this size... would certainly experiment - glue the T-fitting and street elbow together and just press fit on top of the stand pipe... see how that works for you.>
Any suggestions on reducing the noise?
<Give this a try first and see how things go... if your tank is still noisy, do read through the plumbing FAQs... I've posted a couple of different solutions there.>
Thanks,
Rajiv "Mickey" R.
<Cheers, J -
Clams and Overflow box question? 2/17/06
Good morning to you-
I love this site and have been using it faithfully for a year. But
alas... I now need to ask a few questions. I have had a 38 gal. tank for over
a year. I am now getting ready to build a 135 gal. 72L x 24W x 18H w/ a plenum
and 3 in. LS, 155 lb. LR, 2000 gal. an hour filtration. I have been reading all
the articles on Clams and Lighting in reference to water depth, among
others. But I am not sure I can do what I am thinking (I may have missed
something). I would like to know if w/ a 520w Compact light (6700K/10000k,
420/460nm) in 14 in. of water depth if a Tridacna Crocea would be happy and
healthy or would I need to still have a MH?
<Should work>
Next...
I am planning on putting the skimmer box in my tank like in Anthony's
diagram. I am putting in 4 bulkheads 1.5 in. ea., the box will be 48 in.'s long
centered. I want to leave the sides open for water flow from the manifold
around the top. Is this enough bulkheads for the 2000 gal. rate of flow I want
to get?
<Should be, yes... If it were me/mine, I'd make two (the outside ones), 2" ID,
put the bottoms near the same level as the 1 1/2"s>
And will I get my flow rate if I use y connecters and plumb 2 an 2 together or
should they be plumbed separately for better flow?
<Can be linked together... need (likely) to be aspirated to speed flow, reduce
noise and "bubbliness">
Thank You for your time-Deanna-
<And you for your sharing. Bob Fenner>
Keeping Peppermint shrimp out of overflow and to sump - 02/16/2006
Good day,
Cant get enough of this website and I am inspired by all of your generosity with
your time and expertise. Outstanding!
I read the peppermint pages on WetWebMedia and did not see this
question. Background: When adding peppermint shrimp to the display, they seem
to find there way to the overflow box and go down the standpipe into the
sump. I want to keep them in the display to combat Aiptasia (until I get my
excess nutrients under control-working on it). On another site, I asked and
someone suggested counted cross-stitch plastic sheets from craft store cut to
size to keep them from the overflow.
<One choice. Some sort of chemically inert screening>
Well, it works great at keeping the peppermints out of the overflow and in the
display, but now an oil slick is on top of the water of the display as the
counted cross-stitch material is apparently keeping the oily stuff from getting
into the overflow and down to the sump to skim, probably due to surface tension.
<Ah, yes... perhaps a larger mesh material>
I live life dangerously only have one overflow on this display by the way.
<Heeee!>
So, the question is: is there a better way to keep the peppermints in a display
and out of the overflow without obstructing the surface oily from draining into
the overflow?
Sean Missey
<The screening/sieving is the easiest approach here. Try something of a bigger
"draw". Bob Fenner>
Plumbing an Overflow in an Established Aquarium - 03/09/2006
Hello WWM crew,
<Hey Joe...(sorry, one of my favorite songs:)>
I have had my aquarium for about a year. It is a 55 gallon FOWLR. I want to
make the jump to making it a reef aquarium.
<And into the rabbit hole we go.>
For the last 8 months I have used a DIY Ecosystem style sump with miracle mud
and Caulerpa algae. When I installed the sump I made a DIY overflow box. So far
I have been lucky with the overflow box and haven't had any breakdowns.
<We're safe...but for how long? (The Kids in the Hall)>
In fact, the syphon hasn't been broken once since I installed it. But more and
more I want to get away from it. I want to be able to cover the tank better
because I have lost a couple fish that jumped out. Also I am constantly nervous
that it will malfunction.
<Rightly so.>
Every once in a while I hear the noise from my bedroom and I can't sleep for
worrying (this happens rarely but when it does it is quite nerve racking). I was
wondering if it would be too difficult to have the tank drilled now, what it
would entail, and the impact it would have on my livestock.
<And back to the song "Hey Joe, where you gonna run to now? Where you gonna go?"
Fitting eh? Drilling with all intact is not going to work. You would have to
break it all down for this. My suggestion? If you can't drill it, don't sump it.
You don't have to use a sump. Many hang on refugium type additions that can
serve your desires here.>
Thank You,
Joe Lace
<You're welcome. Sorry for my horrid singing (and I was). - Josh>
Equipment/Overflows - 03/25/2006
Hey, <Hello>
How are you doing? Anyway, I have a 55 gallon tank and I want to build a sump so
I bought this over flow box
https://www82.safesecureweb.com/webaquatics/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=ACO75&Category_Code=WDF
(if it doesn't appear it's at www.webaquatics.com in the filters, wet/dry
filters then titled "Overflow Box for
75/125 Filter (Pro Clear)"). I was thinking of what pump I should get for this
overflow, maybe a Mag 5? or
a Rio 12HF? and if those two aren't the way to go then what pump do you
suggest? Thanks for your time. <I'd ask that
question to Web Aquatics or Pro Clear. There is not enough info present in the
ad to suggest a pump size. James (Salty Dog)>
Akbar
Use of external overflows
Hello: First let me compliment you on your website, it is a fantastic source of information. I have a question regarding the use of external
overflow boxes equipped with J tubes. I have checked over your website and keep hearing about potentially disastrous consequences of using such
devices - flooding and even fires! Provided your sump can handle the
amount of water that flows down from the tank should the pump fail (won't this happen anyway when the pump is turned off for water changes
etc.) and the tank can handle the amount of water in the sump should the siphon break in the J tube - isn't the worst that can happen is that the
sump runs dry and your pump burns out? What about fires? Is this
potentially caused by the pump burning out or by some kind of flooding situation?
<Pumps can burn out... almost never with "catching fire">
I would appreciate any clarification you can provide.
Steve McMullen
<Can indeed be a source of disaster... if the water runs on to electrical extension devices that aren't mounted up off the floor... might indeed cause fire, electrocution. Bob Fenner>
- Plumbing/Overflow Questions -
Hey guys,
<Hi.>
I've been using your site since I got into the hobby a few months ago! I'm new to the hobby and I've been reading as much as I can before attempting anything new on my tank. I'm in the process of building my sump/refugium and I desperately need some info. Here are my specs;
1. 155 gal glass tank, not predrilled for overflow... tank already filled with live rock/powerheads
2. Sump 36X18X20 under the main tank not yet working
3. I bought a Mag 24 and a Aqua C EV 180 protein skimmer
4. head pressure about four feet not including valves/bends... because I haven't decided on the design yet.
Here are my questions;
1. Looking at CPR external overflows... looks like I'm going for two overflows. I've been looking at the 1400GPH and the 1600GPH. Considering that I will have less flow ( about 1300-1400) with my Mag pump, with the head pressure... which overflow box would you recommend?
<Larger... would give you a margin of safety should one of the two stop working.>
I've heard that some say to go larger while others say to try to match my output from the pump, I.e. 1400GPH
2. The skimmer water level needs to be 8 inches or lower, if that's the case will a 12 inch baffles be ok or a 10 inch between the skimmer compartment and the refugium? I've heard typically the baffles height should be 10 inches.
<You could always put the skimmer on a riser...>
3. I've calculated that for the 144GPH overflows, I'll need a drain pipe diameter of 155 inches. If that's the case , the drain pipe for the pump should be less, right? What diameter piping would you recommend for the return?
<Matched to the output side of your pump, which I think is 3/4" - if it isn't 3/4" - match the sizes.>
Thanks a bunch guys, you've been a lot of help.
Nilesh
<Cheers, J -- >
Overflows
Hello WWM crew,
Thanks for all your help in the past....
<You're welcome>
Well I'm in the process of setting up my sump for my 155 gal reef tank. The
tank does not have a built in overflow system. As of now, I have the tank
set up with live rock, a clown fish and the tank has been cycling through the
ALGAE phases. I bought a 56 gal (36X18X20) tank to use as a sump. I've
also purchased an Aqua C EV180 skimmer, and a Mag 24 return pump ( 4 feet
head pressure). I'm hoping you guys can help me out, I'm looking to
purchase 2 CPR overflow boxes, either 1400GPH or 1600GPH. With my head
pressure my pump will dish out about 1500-1600 GPH. Should I go for the
larger overflow or the smaller one? I heard that the larger the overflow
box, the less noise, is this true?
<If you get an overflow larger than what your pumps needs are, then they are noisier since the water is going out as fast as it comes in...lots of gurgling noise. Size the box to the pump keeping in mind the length of the return tubing so you can calculate actual water output. Every foot of return line will reduce the flow some.>
Are these external boxes prone to failure cause of siphon break?
<Occasionally you may get some air trapped in the upper part of the siphon, but the closer it is sized to the pump the minimal this will be.>
Also, I calculated the pipe drain diameter should be 1.5 inch and the return should be 1 inch, any thoughts?
<Whatever size the return is on the pump should be the size you use. Anything larger doesn't help unless the pump is going to be some distance from the tank.>
Any comments would be appreciated.
<I have one comment. Please capitalize all the "i's". It helps cut down our (Marina's) editing time as these queries eventually end up as FAQ's. James (Salty Dog)>
<Thank you!>
Hang on Overflow questions 4/15/05
I just purchased a gravity fed overflow box. What are the chances that I will overflow my aquarium or refugium?
<With regular maintenance, the risk is small. The fist test is to turn off your return pump and see how full your sump/refugium gets. While the pump is off, fill the sump/refugium to within about two inches of the top (if it isn't already). When you turn the pumps back on and the level in the sump has reached a steady state, mark this water level as your maximum. To prevent loss of siphon and overflowing of the display, be sure that your overflow is properly rated for the amount of flow. An oversized overflow (or too large or too many "J" tubes) results in slow flow that allows bubbles to accumulate, eventually breaking the siphon. Use plastic screen or "egg crate" to prevent snails and other animals from entering and clogging the overflow. Regularly clean all of the parts of the overflow to prevent algae growth from impeding flow. Siphon overflows are never 100% safe, but faithfully following these suggestions will make it as safe as it can possibly be.>
Also, could I paint the internal box to match my background, if yes what type of paint? Thanks. Eric
<I wouldn't suggest it. Many paints can harm acrylic, and would be likely to come off or leach chemicals into the water. A reasonable compromise is to find some plastic in an aesthetically pleasing color and cover the overflow parts with it. Silicone adheres poorly to plastics, but is acrylic safe and satisfactory for this purely cosmetic application. Best Regards.
AdamC.> Quick Question on overflow systems
I was reading the section about overflows. I, like many, have a tank that
I
can't get drilled. I was leery about siphons and you guys have convinced me
that I'm right to be weary. I run a H.O.T. power filter, It seems to lose
suction and start back up with power turned on and off. would tapping into the
bottom of the power filters sump be a way to go?
<How would you re-start the siphon if/when the water drained down past this?>
then all that would drain out
in a failure would be what was in the power filter's sump. might not have all
the flow I want but I already using hidden power heads for that anyway.
Thanks in advance.
<Could work to return the water... once. Then your filter would run dry... Bob
Fenner>
Re: Quick Question on overflow systems
Okay I get what your talking about now. You're right the pump will lose the
water it needs to prime if there is a power failure (for the record I would use a check valve for the return).
<... my friend... a check valve will do you no good here>
Therefore I would need to use a stand pipe that would be just below the power filters overflow to the tank. That would
keep the water in to keep the pump primed but would allow me to flow to the sump without fear of a
siphon flood problem.
Thanks for your help. By the way, I picked up a copy of the May 2005 Tropical Fish hobbyist And I see an interesting story about summer homes for fish,
very cool, I enjoyed reading it. Well, my quick question has become 3 emails.
thank you for your time. I appreciate your help.
Jay R.
<Do try making a sketch of your desired plumbing layout... and share with like-minded aquarists... You'll get it right am sure. Bob Fenner> Re: Quick Question on overflow systems
I appreciate your quick response, but I don't think you got what I was trying
to explain. So let me see if I can explain it better. I mean to use the hang on the tank power filter (a
Whisper 60 by the way) as a pump to pull water from the tank. Leave the filter intact so that the pump on the filter could pump the water. There would be no
siphon at all. put a hole in the bottom of the filter sump and as water is pumped in, it would drain to the wet dry below.
I would probably need a valve to slow the flow down to not lose prime on the filters pump and if the valve got clogged the water would flow back into the
tank as if it were un altered.
<... we're back to the original query/problem... what will happen if/when the power fails, or a pump goes... like the pump that will return the water from the sump (being fed by the hole in your outside power filter hole in the box?)... Can you visualize this? Am I missing something in this discussion? Perhaps try rigging this up, turn the power off for an hour and see what happens... the water will drain from the power filter above to the sump below, breaking the siphon/connection twixt the main tank and power filter... and if/when power resumes, the sump will pump itself dry. Please read over an article I've penned on marine plumbing:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/setup/index.htm
and the many plumbing FAQs files linked here. Bob Fenner>
Pump Selection And Overflow Box Modification - 06/28/05
Hello crew.
<<Evening>>
I am having a tougher time than I thought choosing a return pump for my 135G
FOWLR.
<<Let's see if I can help.>>
I am gonna run a Marineland S.O.S. rated @600gph max.
<<I always take manufacturer rated flows with a LARGE grain of salt...would
suggest two of these if possible for redundancy/safety sake.>>
Some pumps that I am interested in either come up a little short, or are too
much flow. I am thinking it would be wise to go with the larger pump, and
dialing it back if needed with a ball valve on the output.
<<Using a pump rated at "less" flow than the overflow is not a bad thing (I hope
this is not your only source of flow in this tank.)...and may just be a smart
thing based on my earlier comment. It is also possible to "throttle back" a
larger pump as you stated, but unless you will need the power/flow later on, why
waste the money on the purchase/power consumption?>>
Now, there seems to be two classes on most external pumps. Pressure pumps, and
circulation pumps.
<Yes>>
Can either one of these be dialed back with a valve?
<<They can be, yes. Though some direct-drive pressure pumps may suffer in the
long-term from "excessive" back pressure.>>
Can a pressure pump be used for wet/dry return?
<<Sure, but I would suggest a circulation pump for this purpose for reasons of
cost/power consumption/noise. Iwaki would get my first vote, GRI a strong
second.>>
Can I dial back a submersible pump with valve?
<<Is what I do. Mag-drive pumps take this very well and provide good
value/service in this role in my opinion.>>
I suppose all it would do is make the pump think it is pushing at a higher head
and not hurt it.
<<Some pumps handle this better than others.>>
Secondly, about my S.O.S. I have two of these at my disposal, and am thinking
of modifying one. I do not know how familiar you are with these, but let me
explain briefly.
<<Have seen these.>>
It does not have typical u-tubes. More like a flattened u-tube about 4 inches
wide. Then it has two holes to go down to the sump. One is the main flow, the
other is just in case the other fails.
<<Mmm, not really. The second outlet is not for redundancy...you need both of
the outlets to even get close to the "rated" flow.>>
Here is what I am thinking. Replace the flat u-tube with two typical 1 1/8"OD
u-tubes, and use both drain holes. Maybe then I could get more out of
it. Something like 800-1000gph?
<<Seriously doubt it...these devices are limited/risky by their
design/function...it won't matter how "big" your u-tubes are, you're still
limited by the drain size...just as in a gravity overflow. I wouldn't bother
modifying the overflow. I would instead use two overflows and then shoot for
the 800 gph between the two...much more peace of mind. Sooner or later a siphon
overflow WILL fail.>>
Do you have any comments on this, or things I should be aware of?
<<Yep...as stated <G>.>>
Thank you guys.
<<Regards, Eric R.>>
Almost There! Question on Overflow box
Gentlemen Greetings,
<Adlai>
I was finally about to setup my tank after curing my LR for 8 weeks and
doing my due diligence i.e. reading FAQs, daily researching etc when I
realized that my flow going into my sump might be less than my return.
Could you please tell me how to (or where to go to ) calculate the flow
of hang on profiler/overflow box with a U tube (drilling my tank
unfortunately is not an option at this time)?
The dimensions of the pre-filter and my overflow box are respectively
2.75D x 6L x 6W inch and 10.5L x 4.5D x 6W inches and uses a 1 inch
bulkhead.
<Mmm, am hesitant to offer other than a guesstimate here. Know that
there are other factors that do determine actual flow rates... induced
drag, horizontal runs... Roughly speaking, you can expect a good 300
gallons through this line... In actual practice, I would and strongly
encourage you to try it out... measure the flow with a time piece with a
second hand... and a measured container...>
Also CPR has a hang on overflow box with no U Tube which it clams is
better because it provides a continuous siphon do you recommend this
over the U tubes?.
<Yes... this is a far superior design>
My eventual setup is a 55 gallon hexagon flat back with a sump (a
converted wet dry with Live Rock). The sump has a EuroReef skimmer CS6-1
w/pump, a small MiniJet 606 pump (this powers my 10 gallon refugium
which returns its flow back into the sump), a Eheim 1000 compact pump
(this powers my SCWD for extra circulation back into my tank) and I have
a Rena Filstar XP2 for chemical filtration and additional circulation.
My return pump, an Eheim 1060 is attached to my sump via a bulkhead.
This will be for a FOWLR setup
On last question, the LR which has been curing in my
Rubbermaid container is "turning brown" and the container has some
brown slime too. Is this OK?.
<Yes... to be expected... swoosh the rock, water around to remove when
doing water changes, moving the rock>
I assume it is algae. Since I will be placing it into my main tank do I
need to do anything?
<Not to worry. Is mainly algae... not a problem. Bob Fenner>
Once again, my future fish population and I thank you.
Overflow boxes (sent by FAMA)
Hi,
I am a subscriber to your Mag and it's the best! I have a question for you. A friend of mine gave me his 150 Gallon All-Glass Aquarium. I want to install overflow boxes. All-Glass does not supply them for this size. Do you know of anyone that makes them for a
retro fit application like mine?
<The best site, line to start with are those by CPR, Creative Plastic Research. Their link: http://www.cprusa.com/
Other manufacturer's can be found on the Links Pages on our principal site: www.WetWebMedia.com
Bob Fenner>
Thanks for your time!
Tom Tompkins
U-tube overflow modification
Hello, I use an overflow box with a u-tube. Every week it seems that I must re-siphon the u-tube, otherwise air enters the tube and tends to decrease water movement to the sump and increase the water inside the overflow box, causing less flow and less water movement. Is there any fix to prevent this? Thanks, Rob
<the best solution is to not use an overflow at all... they hold you hostage in fear of the inevitable overflow from a siphon break... even the best designed ones can fail. Do have the tank drilled for a gravity overflow when you can. In the meantime, there are many DIY solutions on the net to
help with this... simply do a keyword search with the pertinent terms. Also look on the DIY link at www.ozreef.org... I think a saw plans there for a better mousetrap. Essentially, what you need to do is
drill a small hole at the top of the tube, glue a rigid airline stem in place and hook it up with the
Venturi of a nearby powerhead. This Venturi will constantly siphon air bubbles that collect (with water) and prevent the siphon from breaking. Best regards, Anthony>
Rob Cook
DIY Overflow
Hi,
<<Hello,>>
I've been reading your FAQs since I started my first marine aquarium this year. It's just a 29 gallon tank with a couple fish, some crabs, and just recently 2 anemones. I figure that this is my learning tank before moving on to something larger. I have a Prizm skimmer,
Penguin Bio Wheel power filter with a Fluval surface skimmer attached, and a Zoo Med powerhead behind the rocks for extra circulation. Anyway... I just added a new 200 watt Ebo Jager heater (also behind the rocks), and a
CustomSeaLife
SmartLite to the mix, and I realized that space is getting tight...
Because of the light I can't reach the skimmer to adjust the flow without removing the light, and I don't like the heater laying across the bottom of the tank. I realized that I have several 10 gallon tanks collecting dust in the garage, so my natural thought was that it's time to add a sump to my learning experience. That would allow me to move all the mechanical devices below the tank except for the power head (which is the only piece I've really been able to conceal well anyway). I've been looking at overflow boxes, and the ones that are
available are way too big for this little tank, and too expensive to boot, since when I do get a larger tank it will be drilled for a sump anyway, so why blow $70 on something that I won't be able to use on a new tank down the road. After looking through the DIY plans online I just had an interesting idea about making an overflow box, and am seeking an opinion as to whether it would be a good idea. I read one of the plans where a person used an old power
filter as the outside box. all the parts were gutted, and the hole where the pump goes was used to place the bulkhead for the plumbing. My thought was... Why gut the filter??? Add the overflow box onto the front leaving the filter tube in place so that it's inside the box (cut down if too long), and why remove a perfectly good pump??? Just add a piece of
acrylic to divide the media chamber drilling the opposite side from the intake for the bulkhead. Now you have an overflow with a priming pump built in... Just plug it in until the siphon starts, and then unplug... If the siphon breaks you can just plug it in to re-prime it. Any problem with this that I'm missing? <<Only if you forget to unplug the pump... the pump mechanics would also reduce flow when the pump is shut off. Although this is a neat idea, it's probably not optimal.>> Aside from the fact that it would be limited by the diameter of the intake tube, but for a small tank it could be just the thing, and who doesn't have an old power filter or two laying around wasting space? <<True.>>
Thanks, Jeff Cowles
<<Cheers, J -- >>
Overflow
<<Greetings, JasonC here...>>
I have a 20 hex I am going to use for a refugium and you said "PLEASE don't use a siphon overflow, drill the tank." What is your aversion to
siphon overflows? <<They clog very often and need regular cleaning. The clogging can/will cause the tank to overflow and perhaps your return pump to run dry.>> I am looking for some advice as to where to drill the holes into the back of the tank to install the overflows? My guess is as close to the top frame as possible leaving enough clearance so the
bulkhead fitting will clear the frame, is that correct? <<Yes, would be my choice.>> My LFS (189 miles away) has only drilled the bottom of tanks and did not have any ideas where the holes should be drilled in the back of the tanks. I am very limited on the size of the hole I can have drilled. My community is very small and only on glass shop drills glass. Fortunately, they can drill 1 ½" holes. I know this probably seems like a stupid question, but I have already made enough mistakes, I don't want to make another by ruining a perfectly good tank <<Not a stupid question at all. Cheers, J -- >>
Overflow to sump & gph to and fro
Hello All/Some/One:
I read in section http://www.wetwebmedia.com/pbfaq6mar.htm
where Mr. Pro (stage name?) wrote: "I would not take a siphon
overflow for free and I would never even think about using one in my
house". If you are not Mr. Pro, do you agree? Is the
actual problem of breaking siphon that the sump's contents will then be emptied
and cause the display tank to overflow?
<Nope, the opposite>
If so, what is a person to do with a 55gal all-glass that is already set up,
but is now looking into sumps/refugiums? At this time, I am not
ready/willing to break it down, bring it to a professional, have holes drilled
and an overflow put in (which I also read that they may not even drill/warranty
my tempered-glass bottom!). Can a safety switch be purchased (or
created) that when the water level reaches critical in the display, the pump
will shut off? Please help with some solution other than "get
yourself a tank with a built in overflow" wink!). Also, please clear
this up for me;
if I have 1000gph overflow to sump, and 600gph return pump, does the overflow
part slow down?
<Yes, the overflow can only remove as much water as is being returned to the
tank.>
How about the opposite: 600gph overflow and 1000gph pump?
<This would be a waste of pump, the overflow would be too restricting.>
Or does neither work and they need to be equal (can't be, right?)? I
have read so many FAQ's that I think I am confused again.
Regards, Rich.
<Hey Rich, drilled overflows are always going to be safer than siphon
overflows. The problem with siphon overflows is the potential for
problem. In theory they work well, say for example your power goes
out and your pump stops, then the tank drains down to the level of the overflow
box that is positioned on the inside of the tank. But what if the
suction cups that hold it to the glass are old and no longer fit tight, then
water will suck through these holes and overflow your sump. Or maybe
the return from the pump starts siphoning water back into the sump in the even
of a power failure, another chance for your sump to overflow. Another
problem is air gathering in the top of the siphon tube and breaking the siphon,
then the pump drains the sump and burns up.
Than being said, make sure that the suction cups fit tight, drill a small hole
just below the water line on the return to the tank to break the siphon in case
of a power failure. You can also drill and attach some airline tubing
to the top of the siphon tube and attach the other end to the Venturi portion of
a power head, so if air does gather it will be sucked out. Hope this
helps. -Gage>
Pre filter/skimmer J-tubes losing prime
[AKA... you can't polish a turd]
Jason C, could you please forward this email to a few of the
other members of the organization? Perhaps they may have an alternative method
to fix this problem that you may not be aware of. I mean, it IS
possible.
<at your request, your message has been forwarded to me, bud. Anthony Calfo
in your service>
I was thinking that perhaps extending the J-tubes by about an inch or so into
the intake compartment may help keep them deeper, so that when the power fails
and the little intake drains to a certain point, the J-tubes would still be
below the surface of the water.
<J-tubes are inherently flawed and inferior devices. I'm not exaggerating
when I say that I would not sleep in a house with this application. In ten years
I have heard of numerous failures by siphon overflows, and two of them caused
house fires. Better designs may carry you a year or two... even three before a
failure. But then again... maybe not. There are modifications of the design that
include drilling and tapping the top of the tube with a check valve and airline.
This is then connected to the venturi of a powerhead to help prevent the siphon
from breaking. It is helpful but hokey. It relies on the power head restarting
after a power outage, and some do not. The venturis clog fairly quickly and
often. And even when the best modifications and performance of a siphon overflow
are in place, it can be wrecked in an instant by a low running sump that throws
bubbles into the main display or even the literal addition of an airstone or PH
venturi in the tank. Any bubbles that reach the surface can be overflow and
overwhelm the j-tube... breaking siphon. The moral of the story... "You
can't polish a turd". I would rather not have a sump or trickle filter than
be forced to live with a j-tube. Sorry, bud... it is what it is>
It's things like that that I'd like confirmation on.
<understood and agreed>
I'm just guessing that it might work.
<I'm sure it will fail in time. I have yet to see a modification for three
years without a catastrophic event. Most don't even make it to one. Case in
point, how many overflows have you had already?>
Please don't reply "Well try it and see".
<no worries here... I'm suggesting you drill the tank or drill the
sump/trickle and treat it like an upstream refugium (mount it above the display
and pump up to it, letting water overflow down and the display becomes the
sump>
I just wanted a few more opinions from the staff on your end. Maybe
they've encountered similar problems with the J-tube
<yep... about 15 years worth including an investment into a commercial j-tube
set-up for about 1000 gallons worth of breeder tanks>
arrangement and KNOW what seems to remedy the situation.
<yep... remove it ASAP my friend>
Thank you for all of your assistance. Steve
<best regards... wish I could have borne better news for you. You have your
work cut out for you, bud. Find whoever suggested this j-tube to you by the way
and kick them in the jimmy. Drilled overflows have been the mainstay for a
decade. Anthony>
-CPR overflows-
Hello WWM, I was read the FAQs today & saw this statement from Kevin,
concerning CPR overflows-->"<I'm a J tube user for life (if drilling
isn't an option!), the CPR overflows are horrid, and I'm not sure about the
Tidepool ones as I haven't used them> <-- What makes the CPR overflows
"horrid"? Just curious, I was thinking about getting the 1400gph CPR
overflow myself!
<Heh, I knew I'd have to explain sooner or later. I've used the CS90 and
CS102 (the 1400gph one you're talking about) both on my personal tank and at the
shop. My main reason for disliking them is that a small pump w/ venturi kit is
required in many cases to suck the accumulating air out of the top of the siphon
"chamber". This pump then spits the bubbles into your main tank, that
is, if it keeps sucking the air out because, w/out frequent cleaning, the nipple
provided to suck the air out get's clogged. When this happens the chamber will
eventually fill with air; breaking the siphon. Although I have had bad
experiences with them, not all have, and some actually swear by them. A quick
ReefCentral or reefs.org search will get you several more opinions on the
subject. Personally, I find that the additional cost and potential problems make
a J tube style overflow choice a no-brainer. If you wanted to try a CS series
overflow, make sure you match the flow closely, and be willing to deal with the
unique issues surrounding it. Hope this helps! -Kevin>
Thanks, as always, Scott in Denver
Overflow Question
Hey! How is everybody? <Beautiful day in San Francisco. Ryan
Bowen with you today> Thanks again for such a great site! Got a
question. I have an established 40 gallon tall and I want to add a
sump but it just isn't possible for me drill holes for an overflow.
<Hmm...Most overflows require no drilling at all> I'm not sure
how to get the water movement correct. <Choose an overflow with about a
400gph rate. Since you're not going the drilling route, you will need
a submersible pump, and don't skimp. The cheaper ones add a lot of
heat to the water.> I have a ten gallon laying around that I was planning on
using for the sump. <Go to PetCo, get a super-cheap 20-30 gallon
instead. The extra water volume is the true reason for all this
labor- 10 gallons is barely worth the effort.> I was thinking about using 2
of the same pumps (quiet ones, 300gph) to move the water to the sump and back
up, into a SCWD wave maker, then into the display tank. <Hmm...I would use a
CPR Overflow or a Tunze outlet. Look up some DIY Sump designs here: http://ozreef.org/
And then pump it back up with an adequate pump.> I don't about all the water
pressure, gravity, calculations and stuff. <Trial and error can be pricey, so
you may want to read the Circulation FAQs> The top of the tank is about 4ft
off the ground. What can I do to make this work without drilling?
<See above> My main focus it get everything I can out of the display and
off the back of the tank. <Great> The health of the tank is good and I
think a sump could make it much better. <Can't improve perfect health!> I
cant afford a bigger tank and I want my 40. Any advice would very much
appreciated. <Surely! Good luck, Ryan>
-nick
Siphon box prefilter 1/15/03
Hi Crew! Easy question today. As I do not have a drilled tank, I am
forced to use a hang on siphon box. I seem to remember reading that
the foam filter should not be used as it will go biologic (sp?) and
then become a source of nitrite/nitrates in the sump. Is
this correct? If so , should the foam filter be used? or just go
without? My sump is really just a refuge with live rock rubble for growing
critters. Thanks as always.
<Some nitrate will be produced in the sponge filter, but I doubt it would be
enough to be of concern. Unless you need to protect the drain from
snails or other animals/objects entering and clogging it, there is no good
reason to have it. Bottom line... I would base the decision on flood
risk, not nitrates. HTH. Adam>
Re: siphon box prefilter 1/16/03
Adam, I'm sorry to bother you again but I did not post my last
question very well. I am so stressed out about this, that I can't
write clearly. Maybe I need a hobby? I know! I'll get a aquarium!
<No bother at all! And by the way... I tried that I
need a hobby, how about an aquarium thing with my wife and she didn't buy it for
a second!>
With the overflow drain pipe going into the sump, should it be above the water
level in the sump or should it be below?? Thanks
<Sorry for passing over this part of your question. IMO it really doesn't
matter. I prefer to put under water because I found it to be quieter
and makes less salt creep. HTH. Adam>
Re: siphon box prefilter// follow-up 1/15/04
Adam, Thanks for the fast reply. I was referring to the big round
filter in the drain box on the back of the tank, not the skimmer box with
"teeth" on the inside. Would you still not use the cylinder shape foam
filter?
<Hmmm... I am pretty sure that is what I was thinking. Snails
can be quite feisty and climb over into the "outside" box of an
overflow assembly.>
I also have a question on the drain line going into the sump/fuge. It is a
1" PVC pipe going straight down. I have checked the FAQ and some say the
pipe should be above the water line, some say it's OK for it to be
below? I am trying to make it as quiet as I can, but it still makes a
loud flushing noise. Is this just the "nature" of these boxes? Are
they all noisy? Thanks again!
<There are a couple of ways to quiet this down. One is to build a
"Durso" stand pipe in the outside box of your overflow. If
you do a search on the internet for "Durso stand pipe" you should find
a diagram. You can also cover the top of the overflow box to muffle
the sound. Best regards, Adam>
-Who's rating these overflow boxes?!-
Hi Guys!
This is the first time I'm writing (most of my questions have been answered by
searching and reading the FAQ's). <As most should! A big pat on the back for excellent
self research! We're glad you've found it useful.> I want to say first, thank
you for the awesome site. It has helped me out enormously! My
question has to do with an overflow box that I purchased a while back. Basically
the overflow box contains a prefilter box that sits in the display, two J-tubes
that siphon the water out of the prefilter box and a holding container in the
back with two 1" bulkheads for draining. It supposedly does 1200
gal/hr. <1" U/J tubes can handle around 600 each, so that sounds
good.> In a nut shell my circulation goes like this: Water siphons
out of my display via my overflow box which then is transported to my sump via
two 1" flex tubes that dump the water into the first compartment of my
sump. A Mag7 pump (external) pulls water out of the first compartment
and pushes it into the ETSS Reef Devil Deluxe skimmer (external) which empties
the newly skimmed water back into the first compartment. The water
goes under the first baffle and over the second to enter the refugium (sump
dimensions are 24W X 18D X 16H, the refugium is 15W X 18D X 16H). It
then overflows into the last compartment where it is sucked up by the Little
Giant 3MDQX-SC and is transported through 1" PVC piping and a 1” black
tube back into the display having to first pass through a ball valve, check
valve, and two 90 degree bends. The Little Giant pump sits about 4 ft. from the
top of the tank. With two 90 degree bends, all the valves and tubing, plus the 4
ft. of head pressure my pump is pumping at most 875 gal/hr (rated 1,000 gal/hr @
3 ft. head)! And that’s looking at it from an optimistic view
point. Currently, if I don’t close the ball valve on the return
about an 1/8 of a turn the pump will pull all the water out of the third
compartment faster than the overflow can put the water there! <Hmmm...>
I’m wondering did I purchase a junk overflow box (it is a non-named brand,
purchased from a plastics company) or is it my setup that is slowing the water
down too much? <The overflow box should be fine as long as the u-tubes are
the standard 1" diameter ones.> Should I purchase an overflow box with a
little more capacity to keep up with my pump? Everything works right
now but I’d like to use the full potential of my pump. If
there are any suggestions you could give me I’d really appreciate it.
<Suggestions: Assure that there are no kinks or needless 90's in the tubing
running from the overflow box to the sump. Make sure nothing is blocking the
1" drains in the overflow like clogged sponges. Check to make sure that the
problem isn't simply a case of not enough water in the sump by opening the valve
on the pump, and adding more saltwater to keep the chamber full. You'll want to
stop this madness if the tank looks like it will overflow and take all that
water back out. Heck, if it doesn't work you've just done somewhat of a water
change! Basically, there's no reason that you can't run your pump full throttle
on this setup. If the water is draining unrestricted, then maybe the u-tubes are
too small or clogged. Try a few more things before giving up on your overflow. I
hope this helps, I'm sorry I don't have a straight answer for ya!
-Kevin>Right now I’m looking into getting a new overflow box from a
different and notable company that is rated at 1400 gal/hr but wanted to know if
it will even help. Thank you very much for your time.
Chris
New tank isn't drilled (but overflow required!)
Hello Bob, would like to know which overflow would
be ok / compatible with the jewel Trigon 350ltr,and return pump required
(Eheim 1260/ ocean runner 3500
or what do you advise!
<I am much more "positive" re the use of such add-on overflow "boxes" than many
of my cohorts here at WWM... for a system this size, for safety's sake, I would
utilize two such devices... either tying in their discharges to your sump with a
tee or allowing each to overflow separately>
Sump size is going to be roughly 27x15x18 with live rock, Caulerpa and
then return probably housing carbon/ heater. Rowaphos
I would put under direct
flow from overflow in a basket or something.
Would you suggest any material different from above in relation to sump, your
expert advice would be greatly appreciated
Thank you ,I Smith,
Preston, Lancs, UK.
<All sounds about right. Bob Fenner>
Friends Don't Let Friends Use Siphon Overflows 9/7/04
Hey guys,
<howdy>
So I have the old Amiracle hang on overflow, and was running a 1 1/8" inside
diameter u shaped tube. I took out the u shaped tube and constructed a standpipe
of 1 1/2".
<hmm... I see the illustration mentioned below. Your "standpipe" really isn't
one... it's still a siphon overflow. A standpipe is an open-mouthed gravity
overflow "drain" by some definition of the word>
Click here and look at the first picture that comes up as you scroll down the
webpage to see a picture of what it looks like...
http://aquaticpredators.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13
It worked well and was able to draw out more water from the inside skimmer box
(inner box) to the outer box more than before.
<a larger bore siphon, yes>
After I saw the result of this (more water being drawn out), I decided I needed
more flow rate coming from my return pump. I basically went from a 3/4" return
line to a 1" return line and took out all of the 90 degree elbows that I had at
the top of the return line and put 45 degree elbows instead.
This in turn gave it less back pressure, allowing the pump to push more water
out. However, after doing this with the return line, my inside skimmer box
(inner box) couldn't take this much flow rate. What happens is the inside
skimmer box gets filled up with water and overflows back into the aquarium and
unless I turn the return pump off, the aquarium overflows. My questions are the
following:
<the pump simply needs a gate valve off the top of it for fine tuning the
outflow>
What can I do to make my overflow be able to take more flow rate?
<I do not trust or recommend siphon overflows of any kind. They are patently
unreliable and a danger IMO (flooding and worse)>
Shall I need a bigger inside skimmer box (inner box) to take more water in?
<my very strong advice is to have the tank drilled with enough holes for a
proper flow>
Shall I need to make the standpipe bigger, from a 1 1/2" to 2"?
<you cant polish a turd <G>>
Or did I just miss something in the process, or leave something out? I can't
figure it out.
Just to let you know, my bulkhead on the outer box of the overflow is a 1 1/2".
So the problem isn't on the outer box of the overflow, it's on the inner box of
the overflow (or skimmer box); it just can't handle all the water flow from the
mag-drive 12 that I have as a return pump. Any help would be greatly
appreciated.
Thanks, Hamilton
<do drill my friend... you will not regret it. Just be sure to drill
enough/large holes. Anthony>
Making a homemade overflow
Dear Adam,
<< Hey Narayan. >>
My Eheim 2227 wet/dry failed today. A few days ago it was unable to
pump water up against the head pressure and I had to restrict the inflow
just so that the pump can keep up. Today it started to leak out of a
seal.... Fortunately it was devoid of media and merely added to my water
volume and flow -It did give me some surge type flow though!
I'd like to replace it with a 20L refugium under the tank. << I hope you mean
20 gal, because 20L is pretty small. >> My plan is
to have a small initial chamber to add a media bag with carbon and
PolyFilter , followed by most of the tank that will be 4" DSB, macro
algae, 'pods, all lit up 24hrs or reverse -not sure yet... any opinions? << I'd
go reverse lighting. Sounds good to me. >>
And a final chamber with the pump that will be sized for about 100gph
flow. << That is very little flow. I'd go around 800 gph. >> The display is a
72G with 4.5" DSB and 75-80lb live rock.
Currently my circulation is just (2) Seio 620 powerheads and a Remora
pro with Mag3 pump. Total flow 1700 gph in a 72G - probably more like
1200 gph and 60G of water...
My tank is not pre-drilled. I am torn between a CPR overflow with the
Aqualifter pump or a home-made over flow that will have (4) 1" U-tubes,
each one quite capable of handling the 100gph flow should the other 3
lose siphon. I'm not sure I want to rely on the Aqualifter not failing
-after all, I just had a $175 Eheim filter fail me is a little over 14
months! Which one would you recommend? << If you can afford it, I'd go with the
CPR overflow. If you want to save some money there are lots of people out there
making their own overflows. Before making one I'd get some friends to come look
at it with you. >>
Thank You,
Narayan
<< Blundell >>
Hang On Overflow Box
When you use a hang-on type overflow box with a wet/dry sump filter, does
that produce any noise problem?<There will be some> I've read that the tanks
that have the built-in overflow are noisy? I've searched your site but can't
find the answer. Please help! <I've had several tanks with built-in overflows
and found none that were distracting to me, unless this tank is going into your
bedroom, you'll be better off with the built-in overflow as they have fewer
problems than the hang-ons. James (Salty Dog)>
Mitch
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