Re: Chrysurus angel sick... poisoned...  8/14/07
Well Bob I have read everything on your site on this and now I have lost my lionfish (who started whirling around towards the end like he had no balance), my male yellow stripe maroon clown, and now my Female is whirling like her swim bladder is affected?
<Some sort of poisoning>
Conspic still not eating and has a cloudy eye, (if this was HLLE why are eyes cloudy on this fish?.
<See above>
My passer and imperator are doing ok still eating but their heads look terrible. This am I was able to catch all fish and move them into holding talk with sharks. Should I start over? I was contemplating bleaching tank. let me know your thoughts on this please, and then returning sharks to clean tank, and treating fish with erythromycin or neomycin with Metronidazole in holding tank.
Thanks again bob.
Kelly
<... something toxic in this system... I would execute large water changes, add carbon to your filter path/flow. BobF>

Toxic Tank(s); Myth or Just Mystery?   8/8/07
Good evening Bob & Crew,
I'm glad you're still here because my water quality is not.
Where, oh where, has my water quality gone?
If this helps, this is the story of a Butterfly in a 10gal. treatment tank (for ich), and a Purple Tang in a 20gal. QT tank at the same time.
Sorry about the length of this. I don't know how to keep the nightmare short.
I was minding my own business, QT'ing my Longnose Butterfly (Sponge Bob) in a 10gal. tank with an Eheim hang on filter, heater, LR and Sand (tank was four months old, already housed 4 fish for QT for my 72gal. display) when this fish came down with signs of ich after about two weeks.
Water quality was stable in this tank from the beginning and throughout this entire period (Temp 76-78, SG 1.021,
<Too low>
PH 8.0-8.2, Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 0), including an additional week after I noticed the symptoms while I educated myself on my options. Fish was still behaving fine and eating Frozen Mysis. The fish never had spots on his body, only a few on its tail and one fin.
With the help of your FAQ's and advice from the Crew, I moved him to a new 10gal. with no LR or Sand, raised the temp to 80-81deg., lowered the SG to about 1.019, and set up the tank as a treatment tank with a 4" PVC T-Pipe only for a hideout.
Removed a Carbon filter that I didn't know had carbon in it after a week of testing Copper content at zero (duh! - thanks Bob) and then, finally, treated effectively with Cupramine following all directions for about the first of the two weeks while the copper tests were reading what they should be with a new test kit and no carbon filter (.4-.5). Spots were disappearing. Everything "seemed" as if it was finally going well.
While all this is going on, I had to purchase a 20 gal. tank and equipment to QT my Purple Tang that had just arrived at my LFS after a four week wait. Ran 20gal. for a couple of days first and everything was testing ok (as above).
I special ordered this Tang and had to take it. (Side Note: can you believe $200.00 was the cheapest I could get one?
<Yikes! Where are you?>
Another branch of same LFS chain wanted $500.00 for one they had in the store!?)
Butterfly was originally scheduled to be in the display tank by the time the Tang arrived - ya right!
During the second week of Butterfly treatment in the newly stripped treatment tank, I was checking water conditions in the Tang's 20gal. QT tank (no treatment) and was horrified to find that the readings were off the map for ammonia! (Yes... Maxed out)
I didn't test anything else. I set a new land speed record on a panic 75% water change (which completely freaked out the fish) and it was still testing positive for ammonia, although less so (about 1.0). I did another 50% water change with some water I had just mixed. Still testing positive but less than .25 on the "not very accurate" color chart.
While I was scratching my head and pulling my hair out over this, it came to me that I should test the Butterfly's tank just in case. I had only tested for copper for about the last week and he didn't eat the day before. Readings were elevated across the board! I had read that you might get artificially elevated readings for ammonia, but not nitrites (off the chart) and nitrates (approx. 40).
I decided that newly mixed water can't possibly be as bad as this and was mixing and changing as fast as I could to do one 90% water change followed by a 50% water change and I was out of salt, and energy.
I did check my source water and it tested negative for Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates.
I picked up more salt and some Ammo Lock on the way home from work the next day and did more water changes with Ammo Lock over the next few days until the readings were "barely" registering by color.
I added ZOE to the Butterfly's treated water because he wasn't eating. Things in both tanks finally seemed to be getting back to "almost" normal. The Butterfly started "nibbling", but not for long.
Believe me when I tell you that in the middle of all this, I was on the verge of just packing it all in. I was looking for a huge sewer! Looking after my four month old 72 display with fish and corals (which is fine through this whole ordeal, somehow?), trying to treat this Butterfly (readjusting Copper treatment after each water change), trying to watch my new Tang, trying to figure out why my two tanks went toxic (by the way, I did remove uneaten food in the Butterfly's tank when he wasn't eating, but maybe not fast enough - sometimes I waited until the next day, but we're talking about very little food, and this doesn't explain the Tang's tank - he ate Mysis and Spectrum Pellets like a machine)
Oh, and did I mention that I had another 10gal. housing the invertebrates that I had to separate from the Butterfly to treat it? What did I get myself into? Whatever it was, it was way too much for a rookie.
<Take your time...>
Now if this wasn't bad enough, at the end of that week when it was time to remove the copper treatment (two weeks and spots not visible), the Butterfly wasn't eating again. Before I was going to do another partial water change and replace the carbon filter, I noticed that now that my Tang looked grey and was not well at all. I immediately tested the water and found Ammonia at approx. 0.25 but the Nitrates were off the chart and that's where I stopped testing. He had been in QT for just over two weeks and this was the second time this had happened. He never had any signs of ich, or anything else visible, so, not having any better ideas, I (GULP!) basically threw him in my display tank. A move I hope I don't regret. Within an hour his colour was 80% better and he was swimming around starting to establish himself in the tank to my Coral Beauty's dismay, and now the Hawk has two bosses.
Of course, the Butterfly's tank is now testing badly again, too. Ammonia approx. 0.25, Nitrites off the chart and Nitrates about 20. (Please forgive the approximates. These were mostly panic measurements. The tests were performed properly, but the recording and exact timeline were not)
I placed him in the now vacant 20gal. after I did more emergency water changes on that one, and by last night, things were, again, back to barely reading any signs of trouble.
Now I'm figuring that I will do a 25% water change every day for the duration of his stay in there not to take any chances. When I siphoned out 5gals. of water tonight, he just fell on his side on the bottom of the tank and started laboured breathing. Now what? I immediately tested again and after one day, the Nitrites were back up to 0.5 from barely noticeable last night.
I retested my mixed water that I was going to use for the change (conditioned tap water, Instant Ocean Salt, SG still low for the Butterfly at about 1.020, temp at about 80deg., mixing for about 20hrs with a Maxijet 400 Powerhead) and it tested ZERO for Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates. This time, again for lack of a better idea, I basically threw the Butterfly into the 5gal. pail with the Powerhead. He immediately started to swim against the mild circulation from the powerhead and is still doing so. That was about two hours ago. (Is this 400 Powerhead too much with this fish in the 5gal. pail? I don't want to work the fish to death swimming since he hasn't been eating. I originally had a 600 in there but it definitely looked like too much)
Forgive me if the information is not expertly laid out, but I'm so rattled at this point, I can barely keep my story, or my eyes, straight.
<Am... a bit lost here re your intent... Quarantine does not entail having no bio-filtration...?>
I can not, for the life of me (and my fish), figure out what is going on here. It's as if these two tanks were cycling, but both tanks are completely bare save for the pre-washed & well rinsed PVC Pipe in each tank.
Can waste from one fish and some sponge in a filter kick off this type of cycling activity in a completely bare tank?
<Mmm, yes... the cycling microbes can/will live in the water, on the glass... can just as easily be supplanted...>
When I started my first 10gal. QT tank with 10lbs. pre-cured LR and sand, I never saw any readings like this and I ran that tank for months and QT'd four fish without any readings, or problem at all.
I've been through more salt water on these two tanks in the last few weeks than I think I've ever used on my 72 changing 10gals about every two weeks.
Right now, the 72 and everyone in it (knock-knock) seems to be doing well as far as I can tell, (although obviously I am no expert), the Tang seems to be doing quite well in the display. His colour looks much better. He is not overly active. He hides from people still, but otherwise swims around quietly picking at the rock and exploring the tank. I'll keep my eyes open and my fingers crossed with this guy.
The Butterfly, as mentioned, has taken up residence IN his "water change" bucket with water testing fine, for now.
Do you have any idea what can make a bare tank (or two) go downhill so quickly?
<All sorts>
I use the same water, procedures, etc. on my 72 gal. and have NEVER had anything like this show up.
If these fish somehow, by some miracle, survive two rounds of this punishment, I will rename them Guinness and Ripley's.
If they don't, then I will of course feel very badly that this happened while they were in my care.
Any light you can shed on this one will be greatly appreciated.
And again, sorry about the length.
Mike
<Without much stability... from system size, diversity, buffering mechanisms, differing micro-organism groups can rapidly populate, their by-products seemingly poison a "bare" system. BobF>

Re: Toxic Tank(s); Myth or Just Mystery?  8/9/07
Dear Bob& Crew
Thank you for your prompt reply.
Unfortunately, even with enough water changes to fill a swimming pool over the last couple of weeks, this Butterfly did not make it. Very sad.
I managed to save the Tang by putting him in the 72gal. display, but I could not risk putting the Butterfly in there after only two weeks of treatment for ich, even though he "appeared" to be symptom free.
He had not been two weeks untreated without symptoms and I did not think it was wise or fair to expose the display tank livestock to this risk.
If I understand correctly, either this fish failed to survive a bare tank that was going through an unexpected (by me) cycling process, or this tank was being poisoned by the by-products of rapidly populating micro-organisms, and in either case, three or four water changes a week of at least 50% were not sufficient to ward off the ill effects.
<I am in agreement>
The original QT tank that I set up with cured LR and sand never showed any signs of cycling, like my 72gal. did with the uncured LR, and I did not expect this with a bare tank.
Unlike my Butterfly, I live and learn.
Even though it was recommended that I discontinue QT'ing with LR and sand because fish can pick things up on their fins from either and it can be tough to distinguish these from ich spots, I will put LR and sand back in the 20gal., wait a couple/few weeks to see if it will cycle/stabilize before trying this again. This is what worked for all the other fish.
<Good>
Well, at least the panic is over and I have the advantage of time again on my side.
Thank you
Mike
<Thank you for sharing... Your comments will save many other animals, and hobbyists grief. BobF>

Toxic marine tank  7/31/07
good
<The beginnings of sentences...>
morning, I am asking this query on behalf of my daughter she has been keeping one marine tank for about 18 months with much success however yesterday she bought her usual 2 buckets of fresh water and did all the tests. when
<Are capitalized...>
she got up this morning all her fish were dead she is devastated. she has been to the shop with samples of her water and they said everything was ok
<Let's say that everything they tested for they considered okay>
she just had a toxic tank
<...?>
which was unfortunate and said these things happen can you please give us any information or your views on what can have happened and can she avoid this in future. ( by the way her shrimps crabs etc. are ok) kind regards Elizabeth Gabe
<Mmm... a bunch to discuss here... Need info. re the set-up, history of this system; the livestock, foods/feeding... Please have your daughter contact us, after reading here: http://wetwebmedia.com/toxictk.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Re: toxic marine tank – 07/30/07
Hi Thank you for your reply
I am afraid I can't give you all the details you asked for, she is too upset to talk about it right now.
<I see... Well, best to wait then... no rush... Leave all up and running as it is for now>
I will tell you what I can. The tank is 50 inches long 24 H 13 W She only feeds once a day and that is frozen shrimp
<Mmm... again, really need to know more for sure...>
I think ,I know it is frozen cubes sold in a block and some liquid she calls snow
<The Little Fishies product? This is worthless>
that is all that I am aware of. The tests are always OK she is very meticulous about tests and the moment any one is not 100% she takes a sample to the shop, I also know that this is very rare. The tank is about 18 months old, and the water change is done every 3 weeks or so. 2 buckets 25 litres each. The fish were Clowns 1.damsel 2 domino 1 puffer
<Yikes... an untenable mix...>
I do not know the kind of fish the others are as she only calls them by name. altogether she had a total of 10 fish, bearing in mind they were all small. She still has about 3 shrimp and 2 crab and turbo snails. It is this( toxic tank syndrome )that we do not understand is it a rarity. we still tend to blame the water change.
Kindest regards Elizabeth
<Have her read and write when things settle a bit. Cheers, BobF>

Salt Creep and Repainting issues - 7/28/07
Good afternoon, crew.
<Hi there, Tatyana!>
I have a question about my marine tank. <Okay> My fish look happy and healthy, <Always good to hear!> but I am suffering from salt build-ups on the wall behind the tank. <Salt creep - Arghhhh!!> First, I tried to clean it with a mild vinegar solution, but very soon paint started to chip away from the wall. <Yikes> I am about to re-paint the wall, but what can be done to prevent this from happening again?
(Also very worried about mold growing on that wall, since it's always wet behind the tank from evaporation).
<It sounds like an issue of the tank being too close to the wall. You’ll have to move it out of the way to paint, so when you’re through, just be sure to leave a couple extra inches of breathing space. I like about 4”, but it all depends on how much/what type equipment you have behind the tank. If you have any hang-on refugiums, skimmers, filters, etc, you’ll need to allow at least an inch of space behind those. One thing I can tell you from experience, is that before you paint, you’ll need to be sure to clean away all salt residue. Salt acts as a resist for paint, so if you don’t remove it, you’ll end up with spots and streaks where the paint didn’t take. Also, be sure to give that wall some time to dry out before painting, especially since it sounds like it stays pretty damp (fans might help here). When it’s time to paint (and if you can’t move the tank to another room), be sure to use a water based (not oil) paint, turn off all tank equipment that brings in air, such as venturi skimmers, wet dry filters, etc, and cover the tank with damp towels. Your best bet is to wait for a nice warm day, open all the windows for good ventilation, and start painting the tank wall first. That’ll give you a chance to so some touching up if you see any paint voids where salt residue was left. After that, wait for the paint to dry, move the tank back in place, get everything going again, and proceed to relax in the beauty of your newly painted room!>
Thank you, <You're very welcome and good luck to you! -Lynn>
Tatyana Kucherenko

My entire 52g tank wiped out - Anemone Toxins - 7/26/07
<Hi Kimmy>
I have 3 saltwater aquariums: one 52g, a 40g hexagon, and a small hospital tank.<Okay>
Recently, something went through and wiped out my entire tank. <I’m so sorry to hear that!> Not sure what it was, and hoping I might find some answers from you all. <Hope so!>
My 52g was set up as a non-aggressive fish only tank. I had a Valentini puffer, 2 mated Clowns, a Longnose butterfly, a blue tang <needs a larger tank>, a Hawkfish, and a high hat fish in there. I also had a pink tip Haitian anemone, a sea slug, cleaner shrimp, and a red legged hermit crab.
My problems seem to have started with getting a chocolate chip starfish. I know that sounds crazy, <Not at all> but that's when they started. It was a very large star with quite an appetite. Needless to say, it ate my sea slug, and part of my anemone. <Yep, chocolate chip stars/Protoreastor nodosus are attractive, but have big appetites – for just about anything.>
Thinking that the anemone could regenerate itself, we left it in there. <Risky> It seemed for the first day to do just that, but it soon after, just died. <Recovery depends on how much damage was done, overall health prior to, and would need pristine water conditions.> It shriveled up and turned to mush. <Not good at all> We removed the starfish and put him into my hospital tank, by itself, hoping to save anything else from being eaten. Apparently, the shrimp we were feeding it wasn't enough. <Agreed>
It was then that my fish began dying. First to go was the Longnose butterfly. Next was the blue tang. These were followed by the Hawkfish, the mated <clown> pair (one and then the other), and lastly the high hat. The only one that didn't die was the Valentini puffer. <Tough little dude> He was taken out and placed in with the starfish in the hospital tank because I thought there must be something wrong with the water in the 52g. <Definitely> Needless to say, the Valentini ate and killed my starfish. <The sea star wasn’t the only creature with a big appetite> I swear if it's not one thing it's another! <It sure seems that way sometimes, doesn’t it, but hang in there!> We then placed the cleaner shrimp and the red legged hermit crab over into the hospital tank...woke up this morning, and the darn Valentini ate my cleaner shrimp too! I found that really strange because they were both the best of friends in the 52g. Weird huh?
<You don’t mention what size hospital tank they were all in, but considering a puffer’s appetite, if it’s pretty small tank/not a lot of hiding spaces, then that’s not too surprising.>
Anyhow, the water in the 52g has been tested repeatedly and tests fine. <even ammonia?> The tank looks great. Not sure what could have killed all of my fish. I do have a theory on this, let me share it with you. <Sure> All of this seems to have started after the star killed my anemone. <Yes indeed> I read someplace that the anemone has some sort of ink <?> in them which is poisonous. <Hmmm, nothing ink-like in an anemone> Do you think that maybe when the star ate the anemone, it released some of that poison into the water which could have killed all those fish?
<I do believe that the death of the anemone was the factor here. Unfortunately, when one dies, it can pollute a tank very quickly.>
Should we have removed it right away?
< In hindsight (always 20/20!), we’d both say “Yes!”, but it’s understandable that you’d have wanted to give it a chance to survive (especially if you were unaware of the possible consequences of it dying). The way I see a situation like this is that although it’s very hard on an already stressed anemone to remove it, if you think it’s failing, it’s best to take it out. It’s just not worth the risk.>
It seemed as if all the fish who died had a really hard time breathing prior to their passing. <Have read of the same thing happening following anemone deaths.>
The one who had it the worst was the blue tang...it even turned colors. <Yep, majorly stressed> I felt so bad about that! <Understandable!> I couldn't think of what to do to help it. We put it into the hospital tank <That's what you do!> and it seemed to help, but not much, and it died anyhow.
<I’m so sorry. It must have been past the point of no return, and/or couldn't deal with the additional stress of capture/relocation.>
The fish who died all seemed a bit disoriented and all acted strange prior to their passing. Have you ever heard of anything like that?
<Not about being disoriented, but acting strangely, labored breathing - yes.>
Any suggestions?
<As for anemones in general, as stated earlier, they can cause real problems in a tank when they die. That's the sort of thing that's good to know ahead of time, and where researching the animals you plan to keep comes in handy. A complication with anemones is that with all that soft tissue, once they do die, decomposition can progress pretty rapidly. Please see WWM FAQ’s for more on incidents like this (starting here):
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/anemhlthfaq6.htm >
Should we empty the tank, clean it, and start completely over with it?
<You can if you want, but I don’t think it’s necessary. I’d do several (at least three) large (at least 50%) water changes, run carbon, monitor water chemistry, and let the tank go fallow for about a month.>
Is there something I can put in the water to make it ok for fish? <Unfortunately, no> Tests o.k.'s I dunno...unless it's that poison from the anemone. <My guess as well> Can't think of what else it would be. I hate thinking about having to empty it completely and start over when there is so much money into that tank already, <Agreed> it's been cycled and looks great.
One thing I noticed too, after the star ate the anemone, the tank became so clean. <Hmmm> Prior to, we had a brown algae problem which was being handled by the turbo snails and the sea slug, the cleaner shrimp, and the red legged crab...but then BAM white clean. Almost like everything was bleached clean, but no bleach was near that tank. I can assure you that. Weird huh? <Mmmm, yes. Not sure what the deal was there>
Another thing that caught my attention, and I thought maybe could have started this: During one of our last visits to the fish store, we picked up some more turbo snails for the tank. One of the snails had some green stuff on its back which we assumed was algae and thought not a lot about. That green stuff turned into bubbles of sorts. It looked really gross. Any idea what that stuff might have been? <Was it slimy? It sounds like Cyano/BGA - tons of info at WWM about this stuff.> Could it have been responsible for killing off my tank? <No>
Be aware, during all of this, my water levels showed great. so I just haven't a clue what happened. <I’m surprised that the ammonia levels weren’t elevated, but ??>
Please help,
Kimmy
<Hope the above info helps. Again, sorry for your loss! Take care - Lynn)

Worst case scenario. Vacation Wipe Out, Restarting 7/24/07
Hi Bob and crew,
<Hello>
My tank of 1 year old got wiped out and I don’t know what to do. Please help!!!
<Will try>
Here is the situation…
I went on vacation and left the fish to a nice lady to care for them. The saddle back puffer died (after being harassed by a pair of tomato clowns) shortly after I left and no one was there to remove him until at least 24 hours later. Apparently, the dead puffer released its toxin that killed most everything else in the tank. <Does happen fairly often.> When the lady showed up the next day, she was horrified by the scene and didn’t know what to do. All the dead fish was left in the tank for another day until she finally tracked me down and
got instructions to remove them. By that point, the few survivors gone belly up also. There are over 30 casualties all together. <Wow> She removed all the dead fish she could finds and I asked her to leave the system running in the hope that at least the live rocks could be saved.
I came home late last night after two weeks of vacation. The tank is full of algae, but otherwise completely lifeless. Everything is dead, including anemones, starfish, snails and corals. <Welcome back.> I couldn’t even find any copepods in the gravel anymore. <Probably a few did make it.> Additionally, a few dead fish been stuck behind some rock works while decomposing for two weeks. There appears to be a white fungus that cocoons the rotted fish under water. Needless to say, I am totally grossed out. Interestingly, the little Seachem ammonia indicator tag is showing a safe level of ammonia in the water.
<Shows you the value of those indicators.>
I feel really bad for the lady and worst for the fish. Incidentally, one of the filters sprung a leak last year while she was taking care of my tank.
Water continuously leaked all over the hardwood floor and she had to mop it all up and did repairs while she had me on the phone. Poor thing! I am sure she’ll run away the next time I mention the word “vacation”.
<Hope you got her something nice.>
Anyway, here are my questions:
1. Could a little Toby puffer be so full of toxin as to have wiped out the tank? <Yes>
2. After the cleanup of dead fish, do I need to do anything more then just changing the water and filters material? <Probably need lots of water changes to get the nutrient levels back in line, but nothing beyond that.>
3. Are the live rocks and sand dead/poisoned? <Can still be used.>
4. Do I need to cycle the tank again? <Is cycling now I bet.>
Thanks!
-Hoshing
<You are starting from scratch here, need to recycle the tank, add a few pounds of new live rock to reseed everything and give it some time to get back up and running. Now I need to go call the women watching my tank while I'm here in Hawaii.>
<Chris>

Marine Question/s... mis-stocked SW, no Q, mis-treated, Crypt infested, poisoned...  – 07/24/07
Hello. I'm new to the sport of Marine Fish keeping. I have a 55G, with a protein skimmer rate for up to 70G, a large powerhead, and dual bio wheel filter. 140 pounds of live rock, and 80 pounds of live sand. I have 3 clowns,
<All of the same species I hope/trust>
2 chromis, 1 yellow tang, 1 Naso tang
<Not enough room for this genus/species here>
and 1 yellow boxfish.
<Do read re this last... on WWM>
Also had about 12 hermit crabs, and 10 snails. The boxfish was the last addition. Everything was going perfect, all levels at 0, then suddenly that changed......the boxfish had a spot on it's back where it was still yellow, but more pale, the LFS toll me that was because he was getting older and he was changing colour. Turns out it was the start of ick, or something?
<Maybe>
Anyway, within a few days he was covered in ick, which transferred to all my other fish. I tried Kick-Ick
<Worthless... and you added this nonsense to your main system... Mistake>
for 7 days which did nothing, I had to turn my protein skimmer off to use the stuff, and my ammonia went crazy, up to 4.0 or higher!
<... toxic>
I stopped with that treatment after some fish died (the box and Naso) Put the protein skimmer on, got my levels back to normal, then started copper a/p LFS. Well the instructions on the bottle were terrible, and I ended up overdosing. I quickly did water changes till I got the dose back down. All my bristle worms came out and a lot of them died on the sand. I treated with copper for 2 days
<?>
at 0.25, but everything else died except the yellow tang and 1 chromis. The yellow tang has a small red spot under it's side but no sign of ick, same with the chromis. So I stopped the copper,
<...>
put my carbon back in to remove the copper because it was killing everything. So now I'm left with my tank with a bunch of dead stuff (took out whatever I could, some worms can't get at them unless I totally tear down everything). Known alive are 1 5" bristleworm, 2 large hermit crabs, 3 small, 2 snails, 1 yellow tang and 1 chromis.
My water levels are back in check. Where do I proceed from here? I'm scared of getting more fish and them dying on me again. I don't know what my next step is?
Help!?
<With what?>
ps. I don't buy from the LFS that sold me the boxfish anymore! Aging spot my A@@!
I don't get a chance to look at your website all the time, any chance you could e-mail me back what you think my next move is? Thanks so much, your site is amazing!!!!!!!!!!
<Read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/parasittksfaqs.htm
and the linked files above... Bob Fenner>

Blenny Death Question – 07/18/07
Hello,
We have an office tank 90 gallon. Although I know a lot about the tank we have a professional come in and do water changes etc. ...
Last week we could not find the Blenny fish and never did and then 3 days later the flame angel died. We take the fish out as soon as we see them dead but were unable to find the Blenny. All the water chemistry and temperature were in normal range but all the fish began having problems, ick and dying off. My question is could the Blenny have spiked the tank upon dying? Also we had an explosion of tiny white sand stars (I don't know what they are exactly) come out and they were everywhere after we noticed the flame dead. We had 4 or 5 small fish die and there are 3 left to go. (Probably tonight) They are not doing good.
We cant figure it out and wondered if it could be the Blenny who polluted the tank.
Thanks for your help!
Nancy
<Greetings Nancy, Jim here.
A 90 gallon tank is more than large enough to withstand the death of your blenny without spiking even a little bit. Something else is at work here, and has caused not only the death of your blenny, but the deaths that followed. Ick (C. irritans) has been introduced into your system somehow, and at this point, without more information, I'm leaning towards this pathogen as the cause of your problems - not the result of some other problem.
Have you added any fish recently? Are you in the habit of quarantining new arrivals? Give me a bit of information as to how you have stocked this tank.
Cheers
Jim >

Emergency!!  Laundry Detergent In New Marine Tank...Importance Of Using “Dedicated Aquarium” Items/Materials – 07/09/07
Hello,
<<Hi there>>
I think I may have contaminated my saltwater tank to a point where something drastic is going to have to happen.
<<Uh-oh!>>
I was having a problem with the cloudy water after adding the aragonite gravel to the water.
<<Common...some folks go to the trouble to “pre-rinse” to mitigate this somewhat>>
My LFS said it would be ok to add the gravel after I got my water mixed and the parameters right, but still over a week after I added it, it's still too cloudy to even partially see thru.
<<Some water movement/running the skimmer will help clear this up in time...can often be very slow to realize though>>
So I went to my LFS and asked them about remedies, they suggested adding a cloth (like a t-shirt) to the filtering process that I could probably clear up the water with that.
<<Mmm, yes...or a fine-mesh filter-sock at the output to the overflow...or a canister filter with a pleated filter element...etc.>>
So I came home, and grabbed a couple of t-shirts and added them to the process. I added the shirts to the (I don’t know the name for it) corner piece of the aquarium, and the water was still draining efficiently, in fact it worked very well, after the couple of water changes and rinsing out the sump the water is almost halfway clear (I can at least make out the heater and all of the piece of live rock).
<<I see...but?...>>
My concern is that maybe the t-shirt contaminated the tank with laundry detergent and it was causing all the bubbles.
<<What “kind” of bubbles, as in detergent foam?>>
If there is that much detergent in the tank what do I need to do?
<<Obtain a “cleaner/detergent-free” source of filter material and continue the water changes until the foaming stops...then let the tank cycle>>
I turned off the pump and drained and rinsed out everything in the sump, added freshly mixed water and started it back up.
<<Sounds good>>
In a few minutes I will go do it again (as often as needed). My main concern is do I need to drain the tank, toss the gravel, and bleach/clean everything down before I can successfully clear the tank of this?
<<I don’t think anything so drastic is called for>>
Or is there anyway that I can avoid buying more salt and sand, and cleaning out the water that I do have?
<<If the tank is not foaming from the detergent, I would stop the water changes and let the system run/cycle (“minimum” four weeks). I think it likely once your bio-filtration becomes established it will deal with any remaining elements of the detergent. If you are not familiar with the nitrogen cycle please see here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/estbiofiltmar.htm>>
Thank you for all your replies
Adrienne
<<Happy to assist. EricR>>

Re: Laundry Detergent In New Marine Tank...Importance Of Using “Dedicated Aquarium” Items/Materials – 07/10/07
Hello again, and thank you for the reply!
<<You’re quite welcome Adrienne...or I guess it is Aerelynn now?>>
I think I can possibly shine a little more light on everything now that I've had a little sleep and I'm not so panicked anymore.
<<Ah, good>>
**What “kind” of bubbles, as in detergent foam?**
They are just regular bubbles, it's not foamy and they pop relatively fast. There seems to be a little buildup in the overflow and the area beneath my bio-balls.
<<Likely from water turbulence then>>
**Obtain a “cleaner/detergent-free” source of filter material and continue the water changes until the foaming stops...then let the tank cycle**
When I started my tank my LFS suggested adding a bottle of this stuff called Stability, they said it was bacteria in a bottle to jumpstart the process.
<<I do like most of the Seachem line but I am unfamiliar with this product...and if it is not a “refrigerated” bacteria product like Bio-Spira I would have questions re its efficacy. If you really want to give your system a jumpstart, ask your LFS or another hobbyist for a cup of substrate from one of their established and healthy reef systems>>
I've been checking my water at home and taking a sample weekly to the store, and all areas look very good.
<<Do consider obtaining/learning to use the test kits yourself...I’m not saying this is the case here, but you don’t want to become reliant on someone else’s possibly old or unreliable/low quality kits for your information. Some quality kit manufacturers include Hach, LaMotte, Salifert, and Seachem>>
The bacteria is apparently doing very well. I have my salinity at a steady 1.023,
<<Better to be closer to natural seawater levels (1.025/.026) in my opinion>>
and so far the only problem that I have is with ammonia, which they said was from the bacteria working.
<<Do read/research our site re the “Nitrogen Cycle”>>
Of course before I add any fish, I will make sure the water is at the best levels.
<<Mmm, yes...Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate all “zero” for at least a week>>
I guess what I'm trying to get at is, am I starting over because of this?
<<As in restarting the cycle? Possibly, yes>>
Or will I be able to start looking into fish again in a month or so?
<<This is still a possibility...though I will state here that if you have the patience for it, leaving your system “fish-free” for a minimum of six months to allow micro-fauna/substrate biota to establish and propagate without the presence of piscine predators will do wonders for the system in the long-term...and watching these critters as they flourish can be quite enjoyable and enlightening in itself>>
My tank has been running for 3 weeks no problems at all (everything looked great), but I had planned to let it run another 3-6 weeks before adding my first fish.
<<Okay>>
More live rock was to be added weekly until I was ready for fish, now I'm not sure if I should even look into that until my tank is all cleaned up.
<<You should be able to resume this in a week or so if you wish>>
For whatever reason, I don't think that I've mentioned anything about my tank really other than my problem, I bought this tank used from a friend that couldn't really tell me much about it other than it had only ever been used as a fish tank and he said it was saltwater ready.
<<Hee! Whatever that means...>>
It's 125 gallons, has a sump and a protein skimmer (which didn't include the pump for it, so I have to get one soon),
<<Mmm, indeed...sooner the better>>
it’s got a regular light and a UV light (but they need to be updated soon) I don't think that they are big enough for that size tank.
<<By “UV” I think you probably mean “Actinic.” And yes, unless this too will be a FOWLR (Fish Only With Live Rock) system you will need to upgrade the lighting. Here’s a good place to start reading/learning more, be sure to also follow/read among the links in blue: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marlgtganthony.htm>>
I've been running the lights while I'm at work, usually 7-10 hours a day.
<<Fine for now, but I would like to see a more natural “tropical” photoperiod of 10-12 hours once you begin stocking>>
The purple algae on my live rock hasn't decreased in color at all and is still very vibrant after a week.
<<Excellent>>
My LFS told me that the little starfish that hitched a ride on it will probably starve to death since I'm not adding food to the tank as there are no fish yet.
<<Hmm...actually, depending on species, the live rock may be the best “source” of food for the sea star>>
I'm not sure if I've missed anything.
<<Me neither [grin]>>
I don't know the manufacturer names for any of my equipment, but I've been working with my LFS to determine what is appropriate for my tank and fish choices.
<<Good to know, but don’t limit yourself to any single source. Research our site and the NET in general as well...and then use your own good judgment to make a decision>>
Hopefully this little bump in the road I've had with this detergent mess will be the most horrible thing to happen, and me and my future fish will have a happy ending after all! =)
<<My fingers are crossed>>
Thank you again for your help!
<<Is my pleasure to share>>
I've been searching your site over and over again reading about other peoples problems, and different species profiles almost on a daily basis since I started my tank up.
<<Oh! Very good to know>>
I have to say Anthony is my favorite responder so far as we share a similar sense of humor I think.
<<Ah yes, he is a wit...or maybe just half...(jus’ kidding Ant!). Tis a shame he is no longer able to share time with us here>>
You are all so very knowledgeable though that I am confident in the advice you all have to offer.
<<Thank you for the kind words>>
I have tried to do as much research as possible before starting this tank as it is my first saltwater experience.
<<I can tell [grin]...just keep reading/researching/asking questions. Do also obtain a few good books to help you along as well>>
I only want to do what is best for the fish I make myself responsible for, and ya'lls site has been an invaluable tool for information.
<<We’re pleased to be of service>>
Thank you for the good work!
Aerelynn
<<You know where to find me. Eric Russell>>

Re: Dead fish, toxic tank, moving livestock (Tridacna) [Graham T.] – 7/3/07
So, thanks again for your quick advice some months ago! I promised to let you know how this tank move turned out... and quick acting and good advice did save the remaining inhabitants.
<Great to hear from you, Carla! Sorry I took so long in getting back to you, but I've been away from the PC for long periods lately since I had some recent changes in my life & lifestyle. I am glad that you didn't require any fast-acting advice, this time!>
I decided not to risk saving the sand (which was a coarser grade than I would have used, inherited from the original owner of this system who had little to no reef/marine knowledge), and had already drained the tank, so just started fresh with the substrate that was already in the new tank.
<Keen.>
As it was somewhere in between the minimum and maximum recommended levels of sand (close to 1.5" of sand), and my compact fluorescents are overdue for replacement, I've been having some problems with nuisance algae... I'd put off replacing them as I planned to sell the tank before moving apartments... however, I'm able to take it with me after all (!!!) and have ordered new tubes for the lights, a 3-pack of poly-filters, and an additional 30# bag of oolitic sand that arrived today.
<Yay!>
I'll stop by the hardware store tomorrow for some 1/4" foam core to place between the tank and stand in the new locale, some shims (the floor in our new coach house digs is a bit topsy-turvy- the slab has quite a slope, and though I've found a levelish spot in the corner for the tank, I'm naturally worried about any torque on the seals of this glass tank...), and some L-brackets to reinforce the stand- It's got more wobble to it than I'm comfortable with- which is to say, some, rather than none- I plan to brace all 90 deg. joints in the stand with metal L-brackets )one in each corner at least), and/or perhaps some square pieces of wood secured along all inside seams... maybe even some wires crossing in the back- because better safe than sorry, right?
<As much as you can do to a wiggly stand is better than nothing, but you may consider the cost of a new stand for a 29-gallon isn't exactly prohibitive...>
It's a commercial stand, but not the sturdiest-looking, and has been moved several times which has I'm sure loosened the joints.
It's currently in an alcove/closet in the living room, and thus not "bumpable" but will be more exposed in the new location, and I want to make sure everything is structurally sound.
You may consider adding some of the criss-crossing you mentioned, as that goes a long way to increasing structural integrity, though it can decrease space below if you try for the sort that crosses from lower right rear to upper left front, etc.>
The big move happens tomorrow, and I'm rather nervous, which has been compounded by the fact that I just learned that the friend who is helping me move the tank (ie: driving) has only two hours in between work and leaving for the airport. Yikes!
<Indeed, hope all went well?>
Luckily, the new apt. is only 20 blocks or so away, or about a 20-25 min. drive. My plan is to have the tank broken down or at least well on its way to being packed up when he arrives, load up and leave in the first half hour or so, and hopefully have a good safety cushion of time in case we have to make a second trip for odds and ends or things take longer than planned. It's a small tank (29gal), and I have a number of buckets and coolers and bags ready to move half or hopefully more of the water- that's one way to get a water change in, for sure!)... but keep your fingers crossed for me... any tips from you or other crew members welcomed (I've looked over Bob's and others' articles and faq's on moving tanks, and hope all will be well... but still... butterflies!).
<Fingers crossed, and sending back in time. Thanks again for the feedback. I love hearing back from posters!
-GrahamT>

Nudibranch/Anemone Slime Upsetting Fish? Yep! 6/6/07
Hello,
<Greetings, Mich with you today.>
I had a quick question about the effects of Nudibranch or anemone slime on fish. I added a rock flower anemone, a couple Cerith snails, and a lettuce Nudibranch (I got a bit of hair algae for him to get rid of) into my tank today and while acclimating them and adding them into the tank a great deal of the slime they had produced while in their bags went into the water.
<Yikes!>
I tried to remove some of it but couldn't get it all. Anyway, about 2 hours after adding in these items my four fish (2 true Percs, a bicolor blenny, and a purple Pseudochromis) began to scratch their faces/ gills on rocks.
They then stopped for a while but began to scratch again a few hours later.
<Likely a reaction to the toxins introduced into the system.>
I have had a problem in the past with ich but I made sure to quarantine all the fish for 6 weeks using hypo salinity and left the main tank free of fish as well. The hypo salinity seemed to work as all the fish returned to a relaxed state and their symptoms of ich went away so after their long quarantine period they were reintroduced into the main tank. It has been 2-3 months since this outbreak and they have shown no signs of ich since. I have also added no new fish into the tank since then.
<Ok.>
Basically, my question is whether or not their sudden scratching could be from the introduction of these new inverts and the slime they produced during their long journey from the fish store or if the fish have ich or some other parasite infestation again and just be chance they didn’t begin to feel it until 2 hours after I introduced the new items?
<Probably a result of the chemical hazards added to your tank.>
After testing my water my results were normal.
<Ok.>
In your opinion, should I prepare for a possible parasite infestation or wait and observe the fish before acting?
<I would wait and observe, though this stress response can weaken the immune system allowing parasitic organisms a more favorable foothold.>
Also, do fish ever scratch on rocks to mark territory?
<Mmm, not that I'm aware of.>
I am guessing the answer is no but it was worth asking because my fish seemed to all scratch on the rocks around the same time and then suddenly stop almost in unison.
<Again, no doubt a response to environmental stress. You should add an extra bag of carbon ASAP and consider a larger water change.>
Thanks for any advice you can give me and sorry if this has been answered before.
<Hope this helps. Mich>
 

Oops. Protein skimmer waste back into the system!   5/22/07
Hi crew,
<Elizabeth>
While in the process of cleaning out my protein skimmer, all of the waste in the collection bin spilled over into the tank.  Of course my ammonia level shot up through the roof.
<Yikes!>
I treated the water as soon as I noticed the problem (unfortunately 4 hours later since someone else cleaned it for me).  One of my damsel fish acts like nothing happened, while the other (the shy blue) was lying on his side on the bottom of the tank gasping for air.  The ammonia is fine now, and the fish is trying to swim, but not really succeeding.  Is there any hope of saving this poor fish.  Thanks!
Elizabeth
<Well, there is always hope... I would try another dose of an anti-ammonia product here (my choice? Amquel)... and try to stay light on feeding for a week or two. Bob Fenner>

Hebrew Cone (Conus ebraeus), Poisonous? Yes!  Degree of toxicity... ?   5/13/07
Hello crew,
<Hi Jana, Mich here.>
I am trying to find on the Internet how poisonous the Conus ebraeus is?
<Well it does kill it's prey, primarily Eunicid and Nereid Polychaete worms, by injecting them with conotoxin, a potent neurotoxin that disturbs the ion channels involved in neuromuscular transmission, typically resulting in paralysis.>  
I found information on other cone shells but not on this particular one.
<Yes, I too am having difficulty finding anything specific to this particular species.  There are more than 600 members of the Conidae family and only 30 documented cases of envenomations by Conus in humans, some resulting in death.  The most toxic is reported to be Conus geographus, though C textile, and C marmoreus are also associated with an increased of mortality.  I have been unable to find any reports describing the degree of toxicity of the conotoxin associated with C. ebraeus, but it is certainly something to take seriously and the effect of the conotoxin would likely vary between individuals.  Also worth noting is current research on members of this family for the treatment of pain and conditions such as Parkinson's.>
Is it found in Australia and how poisonous is it.
<The distribution of Conus ebraeus occurs in the Indo-west Pacific and Eastern Australia as far south as Sydney.
Many thanks, kind regards, Jana.
<You're welcome.  Mich>

Impatient Cycling Causes Fish Deaths  5/10/07
Greetings from Manila, Jason here.  Hope you guys are doing good as usual! :)
<Hi Jason, This is Jeni/Pufferpunk here today & I'm doing great, thanks for asking!>
4 months ago, I had some fresh live rock from the ocean, transported it back and placed it into my 30 gallon tank.  
<Lucky you!  We pay up to $9/lb for nice rock here.>
I only have the small powerhead, no filtration, no skimmer.  Tank temps ranged from 79F to
83F.  
<83 is a bit high.  I'd aim for no higher than 80-81.  We're having a heat wave here & I have 4 fans on my tank, trying to keep the water below 82.>
I thought the fresh live rock might not go thru a cycle process because I transported it myself and was submerged in ocean water for several hours.  
<Any exposure to air will kill off some of the life & start a cycle.>
My mistake was I did not use any aeration during transport.
2 days later, lots of die off.  Everything died, worms, crabs, sponges, except for the coralline algae.
<To be expected.>
After week 3, my water was now pretty clear because of the algae growth and ammonia and nitrates were heading low.  My readings were: Ammonnia-5mg/L, Nitrates-5mg/L, pH 7.6.
<Actually, still quite toxic.>
Is there anything else I should really check for?  I don't know why my pH was
acidic.
<You are testing for the correct things.  Ammonia, caused by die-off will cause the water to become acidic.>
Anyway, at week 3, I decided to do a 80 percent water change to take care of the nutrient export and then get a baby Scopas tang and a couple Turbos.  
<Did you test the water beforehand?>
After a week, the tang died.  It started off swimming/nipping/eating for the 1st two days.  Then it got spooked out all the time and towards the end, would always be hiding in the rocks and never came out.   I checked my Ammonia went back up to 5mg and nitrates back to 5mg.  
<Quite deadly--tank was not cycled.>
I did another 80 percent water change and introduced another tang.  
<Without testing the water?>
He did the same behavior but died after 2 days.  I checked the water properties, nitrates were at 40mg/L!  It increased to 40mg after I introduced the new tang.  
<Why do you keep putting these animals lives at risk?  You cannot introduce animals to a tank that shows even the smallest amount of ammonia/nitrites & nitrates should be below 20 for fish.>
The first tang 2 days before it died started to develop an ulceration around it's eye and also its color started to get dark, with small white spots (but it didn't look like ich).
<Ulceration probably caused by ammonia burn.>
I thought it might have been HLLE, so I checked the water: ammonia, nitrates, pH.  
<What were the results?>
I also unplugged the lights, fan and used a different pump.  But then the next tang died too. :(  What could have happened here?  Are my rocks not cured enough to support even one fish?  
<There is no such thing as "cured enough".  Either the rock is fully cured or it isn't.>
Should I remove my 3 Turbos, which are happily munching away?  
<There is nothing nastier than a dead snail in your tank.>
What do I do moving forward, do I still continue to do water changes?
<Suggested reading: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ca/volume_2/cav2i3/Live_Rock/live_rock.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/lrcurefaqs.htm  
Please do not add any more livestock until your rock is fully cured.  ~PP>
Jason

Toxic tank? Brass fittings, yep. 5/4/07
<Greetings, GrahamT with you...>
I have had a salt water for over 3 years. I recently moved and took the opportunity to change my 90 gallon FO tank to a FOWLR. I basically started over from scratch. Filled the tank with RO/DI water. I took all the bio balls out of my wet dry and now I have about 90 lbs of live rock and 40 lbs of live sand. My water parameters are as follows:
SG: 1.023
pH: 8.2
Temp: 80F
<A touch high, but only by one or two degrees, IMO.>
NH3: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 20
dKH: 10
Ca: 400ppm
The tank has been up for about 4 weeks. The rock was mostly cured so I saw no ammonia spike, a slight increase in nitrites and then it went back to 0.
<If you weren't monitoring the ammonia and nitrite, then you may have started the cycle over again with semi-cured live rock.>
I figured I was cycled so I added a cleaner shrimp and an orchid dotty back. About a week later, I added a Copperband and 2 clowns. When the snails I bought all died, I decided to buy a refractometer and discovered my SG was about 1.019. I raised it to 1.023. I think I did this too quickly because I have experienced a series of deaths.
<Possible, yep.>
First it was the shrimp, then the Copperband, then a clown and then the other clown. These all happened about one a day. I attributed the deaths to the salinity change.
<Maybe, but that is a little much for just the salinity to cause, IMO.>
So yesterday I
added another clown that I found at the LFS for $10. He seemed fine yesterday and even ate. When I came home today from work, I found him swimming in the corner above one of the powerheads and he hasn't moved positions in the tank all night. He just keeps swimming in the same spot and did not eat like he did the night before.
<I think you would benefit from taking it easy on the new additions until you straighten this out.>
So now I am thinking there must be something toxic in my water?
<Methinks, maybe.>
But what is weird is that the orchid Dottyback is still alive and he has been in the water the longest. He seems fine and ate tonight. I can also see the coralline starting to spread.
<These are indications of something right, true, but the Dottyback is resilient...>
Any ideas? Should I do a water change or just drain the tank and start over?
I am totally stumped...
<No, I think you need to look over the system and evaluate if there could be a contaminant, and if your basic water quality parameters are correct.>
I did think of two things while I was typing this...I installed a check valve on the return line when I set the system up this time. I couldn't find a plastic one so I used a metal one...brass probably.
<Ah-HA!>
Could this be leaching something into the water that would normally be flushed out but since this is a closed system causing me problems?
<Yup. Don't use any metal in your system. Titanium and stainless are considered the safest, but I would definitely lean away from using any metal in plumbing applications like this.>
Also I notice that in my sump (former wet dry) there is a little bit of a glossy film on top of the water...could that be something in the water that is killing everything in the tank?
<Mmm, if you mean it looks like a little bit of soap-scum, then no. That means you should be skimming your system. If you add some poly filter to the sump and let some stuck above the waterline, it should take care of that. I reiterate: get the tests done and stop adding livestock until you have answers. Remove the brass ASAP!
-GrahamT>
Please help,
Shawn

Tank Crash, NO2    4/30/07
Hey guys,
<Craig>
Thanks so much for creating such a comprehensive site.  Without it I'd be nowhere.  Here is an embarrassing who-done-it tale, that I thought you might be able to solve.
<Will try>
I came home after having the tanks lights out for about a day and a half in the attempt to cool the tank until I installed 2 fans in the canopy to keep the temp down.  I was running hot at about 84.  Today I came home and one of my larger fish did not look well and I noticed a dead Damsel on the bottom (I'm cycling right now).
<Mmm, a bit of a/the cart afore the equine...>
  The large fish was caught rod and reel from the ocean for cycling purposes, though now I realize that fish are not necessary for this purpose (I was following the LFS guy's advice, at the time).
<Mmmm>
I also noticed that my live rock did not look good.  The macro-algae had lost color.  I immediately took measurements of Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate, and everything was fine (high Nitrites (1.5 ppm),
<Not fine. Toxic>
no ammonia, 10 ppm Nitrate), but the nitrites have been there for about a week).  During the panic I managed to knock the carbon filter output out of the sump, so as I tested, gallon after gallon of precious water was spilling onto the floor (big mess before I noticed). So...
I ended up doing a water change, to replenish the lost water (about 10 gallons out of 120 + 55 sump).  I put in some stability
<Proper noun; capitalized>
and now a few hours later things look a lot better.  The fish are not breathing heavy and the algae is regaining color.
What do you think may have caused this situation?
<Mmm, the dead fish, high nitrite... but who came/caused first?>
Here are the facts:
1)  I was lowering the temperature - 84 - 78 over 48 hours.
2)  I've been raising the pH - 7.8 - 8.0 over 48 hours
3)  I added a 55 gallon tank pack of Bio Spira to help things along
<Good>
(though I had been using Stability for the prior 2 weeks before stopping about a week ago.
4)  I had the lights off for 48 hours
5)  that was the first water change in 3 weeks (since the inception of the tank)
Any ideas?
Thanks so much guys!  I want to see if I can avoid this happening again!
Again - great site!
Craig
<Thank you. Please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/no2trbfix.htm and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>

Sick Damsel... actually partial understanding, involvement in the marine aquarium interest, life...  4/17/04
Hi,
<Hello there>
I have a blue damsel that has had a white spot on his side for a few months.
We have isolated him in a hospital tank (2.5 gallons) for the last 1-2 months.  Although the spot occasionally looks smaller, it really has not disappeared.  He did have a few small spots on his fins, but they have gone away.  How do we know how long to hospitalize this fish, and will he get better?
<Mmm... a good question (causing me to consider...)... Likely this spot is "nothing to worry about"... a bit of mucus being produced by the fish due to a trauma in recent times (capture, holding, shipping...) and will "go" with time... For accurate diagnosis, anesthetizing the fish possibly, excising the spot or some part of it, microscopic examination, likely with some cursory staining... perhaps culturing... might reveal the nature better here>
On another note, we have lost about 6 fish in our 50 gallon tank.
<?!>
  We have tried to kill the parasites or ich by removing the hosts, we left the two hermit crabs in there but had no fish in the tank for over 2 weeks.
<... need more "fallow" time than this...>
We raised the temperature to about 85, and we have tried numerous treatments such as copper, table salt, Quick Cure, and API General Cure.
<Oh my!>
We recently bought two more damsel fish.  One is still alive but the other we lost yesterday, he was breathing quickly so and he was developing a whit line down the center of his back (on the nervous system?).
<Mmm... no... likely general stress period... You "have" something very wrong going on in/with this system...>
We tried to give him a fresh water dip with a dose of the Quick Cure,
<... toxic... the formalin component is a biocide... see WWM re>
but lost him during the treatment.
<... dangerous to use... for you as well... Needs to be "extremely" aerated during fish exposure...>
  Do you think we need to breach our tank and begin recycling it or is there some way to kill what is in there?  
Linda & Ben
<Uhh... you obviously need a better, fuller understanding of what you have here, what you're doing... How to begin to help you educate yourself? I don't know you, your previous experiences... but the dumping of the chemicals you list, the killing of livestock... leads me to consider that such a hodge-podge approach to the hobby is resultant from a lack of reading... or whatever mechanism/s "work" for you... You could (continue) to "get" advice (from stores, the Net?) and "gad-about" what you're doing... but... If you want to save time, understand... a good book or two... or a bunch of reading (start here: http://wetwebmedia.com/tanktroubleshting.htm
and on to the linked files above) on the Net/WWM may get you back to "start"... I do wish I could encourage you to "get into" the hobby sufficiently such that you would learn first thoroughly what you're up to, the consequences/alternatives to your choices, non-actions... Bob Fenner>

Dead puffer with cut open side; Tetrodotoxin release ? – 04/16/07
Hey, How are you all today?
<Hi. Don’t know about the others, but I’m ok.>
Well last week my puffer died due to ich. I tried everything to get rid of the darn parasite, but nothing has helped.
<Sorry for your loss. Much too common with porcupine puffers.>
I worked up to see my porcupine puffer dead. I couldn't recognize the fish. The skin was off and his under side was cut open (yes I saw his stomach!!). I don't believe my eel attacked it, because my eel would maybe be dead due to toxins. I'm guessing my starfish tried to eat it, but left it alone after it tasted the puffer.
<Not necessarily. Moray eels are resistant to several similar toxins, so, although I do not have specific information about them and Tetrodotoxin (marine puffer toxin), it seems well possible for moray eels to eat puffers. However, in your case I suggest he tried to puff (as they often do before they die) and his connective tissue (weak due to whatever reason) and skin cracked. I have seen such cases or/and the results in tanks with no other fish.>
My question is: did toxins release from the puffer into the water?
<Improbable. Tetrodotoxin does not dissolve well in saltwater. In contrast, boxfish (not puffers) can secrete ostracitoxin (informal name for the still unnamed boxfish poison), which does dissolve in saltwater. To be on the safe side you may want to filter with fresh carbon.>
It seems like my lionfish wants to eat, but he can barely open up his mouth to grab the food. Any thought?
<Watch him. Could be lock jaw, which in general is supposed to be caused by an unvaried diet or vitamin deficiency. Could also be a sign of an infection with the parasite your puffer had. See if he is breathing heavy to confirm.>
Oh, I'm also selling the aquarium setup if your interested! Thanks! Ben.
<Take care. Marco.>