Help with troubleshooting die-off  11/14/09
Hi guys,
<Riley>
I need some help in trying to troubleshoot an ongoing die-off event. I've read through your FAQs and articles but am still at a loss on isolating the problem(s) and saving our remaining livestock.
We've been keeping marine aquariums for about 5 years and over that period only lost 2 fish (due to old age we think) until this event. For the past 3 years we've had a 180 gallon reef tank with about 100 lbs live rock and 200 lbs deep sand bed. Fish: 1 dragon-wrasse, 1 maroon clown, 1 yellow tang, 1 coral beauty angel, 2 Banggai cardinals. We also had 1 small frogspawn coral fragment and about 10 BTAs (clones from 2 originals). No new livestock have been added to this tank in over 2 years.
<Good info.>
About a month ago we experienced several systems failures in quick succession which stressed the tank. The chiller failed (temps were unstable/high for several days until we repaired it). Additionally we had a pH spike while restoring our Kalkreactor which had been down for awhile.
Around the same time our RO system clogged so we replaced the sediment & carbon filters and RO membrane. These events seemed to precipitate the following. First, we experienced an algae bloom (lots of green, probably hair algae). It started covering the liverock and coral. Then, we noticed what appeared to be ich symptoms with our clownfish (swimming at the surface, covered with a coating of white mucous, etc). We immediately removed her from the main tank, put her in QT and started a 2 wk hyposalinity treatment (1.010 specific gravity) to which she seemed to respond favorably. We opted for hyposalinity rather than formalin over fears of toxicity.
<A reasonable concern>
Parameter checks in the
main tank at this point included pH, nitrate, phosphate, ammonia, nitrite, dKH, calcium, and magnesium. All parameters were normal except nitrate which was around 30ppm (has always been that high or higher in this tank).
And we had a slight imbalance in ca/mg.
Then about 10 days ago, we found the yellow tang dead on the bottom of the tank. There was no sign of ich symptoms. We executed a series of 30% water changes and got 3 other QT tanks running (against the chance we'd need to extract the other fish). Three days later we found the coral beauty dead in the same spot in the tank. Again, no visible symptoms either before or after death. At this point we moved the remaining fish from the main tank to the QT tanks and started gradually decreasing salinity in the QTs until over several days we reached the current 1.010 specific gravity in the QTs (3 days ago). Meanwhile I continued large water changes on the main tank and ran additional tests including for copper (wondering about metal poisoning), dissolved O2, and silicates. I was concerned the RO system incident and rework had led to contamination in our source water (the main tank has an auto-top off from the RO system). Silicates were normal.
Dissolved O2 was inconclusive (bad test kit). There was a detectable amount of copper (about 0.1 ppm)
<High! Am surprised your Cnidarians weren't showing signs...>
so we installed a Polyfilter in the sump.
<Did this show any blue, bluish green colour?>
Also added 2 lbs of carbon filter. After a few days the copper was undetectable. I checked the RO water in the QT tanks and could not find signs of copper. I completely replaced the old RO system with a new RO+DI system last week in an effort to isolate this. Am doing daily water changes (25-80%) on the QT tanks to manage ammonia. Did a 50% H2O change on the main tank a few days ago. Despite all this the inverts in the main tank look bad (BTAs and frogspawn are always shriveled).
<Not good>
I fear we're about to lose another fish (one of the Banggai cardinals).
She's laying on the QT bottom and/or swimming head down. Looks like swim bladder trouble. Don't see any visible signs of ich, etc. Other fish seem to be okay but main tank (now inverts only) still looks bad.
It feels like we're missing something basic but can't seem to find the problem. Plan right now is to let the main tank remain fallow for 30 days (complete Nov 30) before returning the fish from QT. Am worried we didn't move aggressively enough (if this indeed is ick) but also concerned about continuing to make changes vs. letting things stabilize.
Should we try more aggressive treatments in the QTs (formalin)? Are there other tests we should be running?
<I would not try medicating, nor hyposalinity really. I fully suspect the issue here is some sort of endogenous/biological poisoning in your main display. Not parasitic or infectious disease at all>
I fear if we don't figure out the root cause we could lose everything. Any ideas welcome. Thanks,
Riley
<There's either some sort of microbial "wipe out syndrome" or stress-effect result on your Euphylliids and anemones that has changed your water/system to unsupportive. You can "re-center" the system by continuing to use chemical filtrants, spiffing up your skimmer, adding some new/er live rock... But I would take a look at an important measure of system viability here: RedOx, and possibly add an ozonizer to your standard list of gear. Do take the longer read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the second tray down, under the orange banner: Toxic Situations
And we'll be chatting. Bob Fenner>

Re: help with troubleshooting die-off  11/15/09
Bob, thanks much for the responses. Am running out of tricks and greatly appreciate your help. We've been fans for years. You guys are a critical resource. I will read the recommended link on toxicity. In the meantime, updates....
I. QT tanks & fish
The surviving fish are in 3 QT tanks as follows. Tank-A: maroon clownfish (3wks), Tank-B: dragon wrasse (2wks), Tank-C: two Banggai cardinals (2 wks). The clownfish (who showed first symptoms of distress -- white mucous covering and surface swimming) was subjected to hyposalinity and no meds for 2 weeks (down to 1.010 sp-gr) - is now back to normal salinity. She looks great (good color, energy, appetite). Because of her symptoms and treatment response we (probably incorrectly) suspected parasite infection from suppressed immune system so (a week late) got the surviving fish out of the main tank and into hyposalinity QT. In tank B the dragon wrasse shows no external signs of disease but is spending more time laying around than usual - would like to think he's just bored being in a small tank with no rocks to throw (he's rather smart) but am wary. He shows no signs of breathing distress (normal rate for him), remains gregarious and his usual voracious wrasse appetite. Tank-C inhabitants (cardinals) are suffering.
The male is carrying a brood (actually hatched one last night) and looks good all things considered. The female is hovering at death's doorstep.
Over a period of a few days she developed what appears to be a severe bacterial infection (fins wasting, discolorations and wasting on body, and white feces streamer). Her swim bladder seems damaged (went from swimming head down to laying on the bottom). She's still breathing and will swim away if approached but has stopped eating. Some of her discolorations look like gold velvet so in response to these symptoms (and the clown's) I diagnosed Amyloodinium and started treating Tank-B and -C with CopperSafe and antibiotics (erythromycin/Maracyn in QT water). Both tank-B and -C are currently at about 1.012 sp-gr and I was planning to maintain that with the meds for 2 weeks unless you recommend backing off on all or some of this.
<I really don't think the hypo is going to help; and the copper exposure may well cause more harm than good.>
If the sick cardinal continues to suffer I will consider euthanasia and in any event will do a post-mortem (microscope view of skin sample) to look for parasites. Will discontinue the copper and/or slowly return them to normal salinity levels if you think it's more risk than benefit at this point. Getting an accurate reading on copper (both with total and free copper kits) is difficult so I'm currently at the mercy of the CopperSafe dosing instructions.
My daily QT protocol is to measure ammonia, feed all fish, watch their response, perform 25-80% water changes, and add meds (again nothing for tank-A at this point). Am also aerating vigorously. My plan has been to keep the fish in QT (after the above treatment completes) until a full month has elapsed (allow time for any parasites to complete life-cycle in the main tank) and/or the main tank health has stabilized based on response of inverts.
<Again... would like to have you confirm (microscopic examination of body slime) parasitic presence>
Biggest concern at this point is not losing more fish. We've had the dragon wrasse about 7 years and know they live longer. I'm prepared to sacrifice the remaining main tank inverts to save him (change to FOWLR) but am frankly anxious to get him back there as soon as its safe (really tricky/risky maintaining a big fish in a 20 gallon QT tank for an extended period). So any major reconfig on the main tank that delays returning the fish is a concern.
II. Main reef tank
I just ordered yesterday a 2nd (200 gal capacity) skimmer to augment our existing skimmer as well as an ORP probe for our Neptune controller. Was planning to dig into Redox next as you suggest. I'll look into the ozonizer option.
<A good piece of gear for larger, more valuable (emotionally, economically) collections>
As for tank status, after 2 weeks the poly-filter (in sump) shows no signs of blue-green (copper) color and test kits (API and Instant Ocean) show no measurable copper so I'm wondering if the source water (old RO system, since replaced with new RO-DI rig) might have been the culprit.
<Mmm, possibly... I'd be checking the checker/test kit as well>
The surviving inverts appear to be in limbo (not getting worse but not getting better either). BTAs are "cautiously open". I remain concerned at persistently low pH (hovering around 7.9) despite the frequent water changes and infusion of new aragonite sand last month.
<Buffer the new/make-up water. Use SeaChem's fine line>
I've had the Kalkwasser drip off for about a month now.
<Mmmm, see WWM. Am not a big fan of in general>
Will try to manually bump up the pH slowly using buffer up while I'm trying to sort out the chemistry but again, it feels like something basic is out of whack. Algae remains a problem but nitrates are slowly dropping (down to 20ppm today). Am periodically checking ammonia and nitrites to ensure the system isn't cycling. I am concerned about an as-yet mysterious water quality problem affecting things at a microbial level.
<Yes... mysterious>
Thanks again,
Riley
<Thank you for this report, sharing. BobF>

Urgent Help re: Naso Tang    – 11/02/09
Hi! Mark from the Philippines here.
<BobF in sunny S. Cal.>
I've always been a fan of your site as it's been a really good reference for me. However, due to the urgency of the situation, I think I need more personalized help.
I have a 3 year old blonde Naso tang in my 180g reef that suddenly stopped eating today. What's weird is that he suddenly appears really really thin today. He's breathing rapidly and is staying put in a low flow area.
Yesterday he was his usual self, swimming everywhere, hogging all the food.
He looks really bad and I'm not sure if he'll make it to tomorrow.
<MOVE this fish Mark... Now!>
He looks perfectly normal, no wounds, etc. Just really really suddenly thin.
He's my favorite fish, very fond of people and follows everyone around the aquarium. I even hand feed him from time to time.
Recently, I've converted to an all softies reef and been stocking up on corals. The other day, I added a few Brittlestars, and he started nipping at one's legs. That's the only thing I've noticed him do differently.
<Something this fish either has eaten or the new organisms are releasing into the water is poisoning it... Again, it needs to go elsewhere, stat!>
I'm lightly stocked, have a blue tang, 2 clownfish, a royal gramma, and the Naso. All of them are around 3 years old so all of them are quite large.
All the other fish and corals are okay. Water parameters are okay.
Any ideas what it could be? And any medication, dips I can do?
Thanks!
<Move it, move it. Bob Fenner>

Re: Urgent Help re: Naso Tang – 11/02/09
Thanks for the quick response Bob
<I sensed the urgency>
It's already 12:30am in this part of the world. The lights just went out a couple of hours ago. Should I turn the lights back on and catch him now? He sleeps in a cave and I'm definite I won't be able to catch him with the lights off.
<I would remove this fish now>
Also, all the shops are closed, and I can't get any medication.
<No medication necessary>
That being said, what do I need to do once he's in the QT? Any specific medication?
Thanks again!
<None... just place this fish in a clean, large, established system. BobF>

Re: Urgent Help re: Naso Tang – 11/02/09
Hi Bob!
Sorry, just want to explain myself as it may sound odd that I know the urgency of the situation, but then suddenly hesitating regarding the transfer.
My main concern here is that waking him up after a few hours of sleep then chasing him around the tank might stress him out and cause more harm than good?
<Watch your hands, but remove this fish... w/o turning the lights on if you can. B>

Re: Urgent Help re: Naso Tang – 11/02/09
Hi Bob
Just finished moving the fish. When I turned on the lights he was resting on the sand almost motionless.... not a good sign.
<Actually Mark... this is what they do... at night, in the wild. Larger Nasos are collected during the night in just such a fashion. Not to worry>
He didn't put up a fight as I easily netted him on the 2nd try.
<Good>
He's now in a 20g tank, swimming around. Just turned the lights off. Hope he gets a good rest.
<... I fear I'm not being clear. This fish NEEDS to be put in another six foot, plus length system. NOT in a small body of water>
Still hoping for the best...
Thanks again,
Mark
<BobF>

Re: Urgent Help re: Naso Tang – 11/02/09
Actually Bob, right now I don't have many options. The 20g spare tank is the only place I can transfer him now.
I'll ask around fellow reefers who have large tanks tomorrow who can hold on to him and hopefully nurse him back to health.
I can't thank you enough for your help and speedy replies...
<Welcome. Sleep tight. B>
re: Urgent Help re: Naso Tang
Got it! Thanks! I'll keep you posted!
<Real good. B>

Re: Urgent Help re: Naso Tang – 11/03/09
Our Blue Tang has stopped eating today as well. I'm trying my best to remove it from the tank. I feel really disheartened...
<I would remove all fish life from this system. ASAP>
From what I've read, I think it could be flukes. Symptoms include abrupt cessation of feeding, and the eyes do look a bit cloudy.
If they are indeed flukes, could they have been transferred to the tank by the new corals?
<Mmm, unlikely these are flukes... affecting so many species of fishes...
They tend to be... Well, read here:
http://wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmdisflukef.htm
BobF>

Mysterious fish deaths SW Likely Toxic Water 8/8/2009
Hello Crew,
<Hi Ben.>
I am a long time reader for all things I need to know about marine aquariums. I am having some trouble with my aquarium and cannot figure out what can be going on.
<We shall see what we can do.>
I have a 75 gallon display with 15-17 gallon refugium/sump. I have had my tank since February. I employ my sump as a living and mechanical filter. In my tank I have 2 gold barred maroons one is about two inches the other about an inch and a half. I have a Entacmaea Quadricolor anemone. I have three blue green chromis the largest about two inches. I have a fridmani Pseudochromis. I have a peppermint shrimp.
<Peppermint shrimp are not exactly reef safe, they are frequently used to remove (eat) Aiptasia anemones, They will make no distinction between them and your new bubble-tip anemone.>
I have 5 blue legged hermits, 2 olive snails. As of yesterday I had a Blonde Naso Tang about 3inches, that was eating well but he died this morning after seeming well yesterday. And yesterday I lost my bicolor
centropyge angelfish about 4inches. The angel and the tang were my most recent additions I obtained them only one week apart, starting on the 24th of July, 2009.
<Neither fish was appropriate for a 75 gallon system. The Naso tang needs hundreds of gallons, and Bicolor angels have a dismal survival record in captivity, mostly due to method of collection>
<Read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/naso.htm and here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/marine/fishes/angels/centropyge/ >
I tested all my water parameters and could not find anything wrong.
Ammonia:0-0.25 Nitrate:0 Nitrite:0 Temperature: 79 F PH: 8.1 Specific gravity: 1.022.
<Ammonia needs to be at zero. Anything above zero can be toxic.:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ammmarchemfiltr.htm and
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/toxictk.htm >
I have also I run charcoal in one of my baffles in my sump. I have a Jebo protein skimmer in my sump I clean once every two weeks. I have about 60-70 pounds of live rock. I have a 4-5 inch sand bed in both sump and display.
Nothing has changed except that I added more sand to the setup two days ago from an older setup that had been torn down.
<This may have been the source of the ammonia.>
This was my wife's classroom setup before we had to move it home. About 20 pounds of sand. I do not think it was ich, I thought about flukes as both fish were visiting the peppermint shrimp to be cleaned. I do water changes every 2 weeks in about 8- 10 gallon range plus top off water with RO\DI\UV sterilized water. I am tired of losing fish when I cannot find anything wrong. The only thing I noticed was the visits to the shrimp and a kind of decrease in the activity level about 8 hrs ahead of the passing of the fish. Please any advice or help is appreciated.
<What you are describing is consistent with toxic water. The fact that both fish were visiting the cleaner shrimp often is indicative or parasites, but this was not likely the cause. In the future, following a regimen of dips and quarantine will reduce the numbers of these parasites and greatly reduce the risk of them infesting your tank.
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/dips_baths.htm >
Thanks Ben
<MikeV>