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FAQs on Parasitic Marine Worm Diseases: Flukes/Digenes & (Monogene) Trematodes: Cures That Do Work  

FAQs on: Flukes/Trematodes 1, Flukes/Trematodes 2, Flukes/Trematodes 3, Flukes/Trematodes 4,
FAQs on Flukes/Trematodes: Diagnosis/Symptomology, Etiology/Prevention, Treatments That Don't Work, Products/Manufacturers; Case Histories

Related Articles: The Flatworms That Are Flukes by Bob Fenner, Marine Parasitic Disease, Parasitic Worms, Roundworms,

Related FAQs: Fish Worm Diseases 1, Marine Worm Parasites 2, Marine Worm Parasites 3, & FAQs on Marine Worm Parasites: Diagnosis/Symptomology, Etiology/Prevention, Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work, Products/Manufacturers... Tapeworms/Cestodes, Leeches/Hirudineans, "Other" Worms and Worm-Like Parasites... Paravortex/Black Spot Disease, De-worming Medicines,

Gill worm / flukes /RMF       2/5/19
Dear Bob,
Flukes are back and this time they mean vengeance, we successfully eliminated them last summer with General cure, however we dont have access to it anymore and would take 45-60 days to get more. :(
We are struggling with Sera Tremazol (only stock solution available here), their recommended dose is slightly less than 5mg / l, while you recommended 20mg/l in one of the articles on WWM.
Additionally, while browsing online I've found one more method: " Another method that can be used for capsalid Monogeneans is hyposalinity. In one study, 15 g/L (ppt) salinity or lower for two days eliminated juvenile and adult Neobenedenia melleni. When 15 g/L was maintained for 5 days, the hatching of N. melleni eggs was prevented. It is important to note that some fish species may not tolerate this treatment method. " Will this kill eggs within 5 days, or they will hatch once salinity is brought up to normal?
<I don't know; but am concerned here. MIGHT it be worth "nuking" the system (bleach, possibly formalin...) and bathing/dipping all fishes (formalin, pH adjusted freshwater), to get rid of adult forms?>
This currently looks rather appealing to me, since it's easiest to administer. Additionally, we would setup a bath for all fish and put them through it, in order to eliminate adult specimens and relieve fish of pest
while let hypo do the work on the eggs/remaining flukes.
We have already dipped all fish through 5-7mins Freshwater with adjusted pH + Tremazol + Furan2 dip, we've clearly seen flukes coming off. Fish looked relieved for short period (24h) but now infestation is blooming again so we need to deal with eggs in the system which are not controllable using Tremazol.
<Not fun>
In one of our emails, you have mentioned that some fish aren't tolerant to Hypo, is there a list of those species which I could look at? Currently we have Wrasse, Clownfish (not ocellaris), butterflies, tangs, angels both dwarf and large, various watchmen gobies, blennies, Dottybacks, damselfish, file fish...
<Of those you list, Clownfish are the most sensitive. I WOULD watch, be present while ALL are getting dipped>
If there is no list it would help if you could pin point those that aren't good candidates for Hypo. Idea is to move fish that can't go into hypo to other system where we would try to nuke it with high dose of
Tremazol to reach 20mg/l which you recommended.
Kind regards,
<I wish you good fortune. Bob Fenner>

Re: Gill worm / flukes - 02/04/19 /Now Sara
Dear Bob,
<Sara L. here today.>
Flukes are back and this time they mean vengeance, we successfully eliminated them last summer with General cure, however we dont have access to it anymore and would take 45-60 days to get more. :(
We are struggling with Sera Tremazol (only stock solution available here), their recommended dose is slightly less than 5mg / l, while you recommended 20mg/l in one of the articles on WWM.
<So start with 5mg/l and see what happens. If that doesn't work, raise it to 8 mg/l, then 12 mg/l, etc.>
Additionally, while browsing online I've found one more method: " Another method that can be used for capsalid Monogeneans is hyposalinity. In one study, 15 g/L (ppt) salinity or lower for two days eliminated juvenile and adult Neobenedenia melleni. When 15 g/L was maintained for 5 days, the hatching of N. melleni eggs was prevented. It is important to note that some fish species may not tolerate this treatment method. " Will this kill eggs within 5 days, or they will hatch once salinity is brought up to normal?
<Possibly. I would have to read the study to know what the researcher/writer meant by saying that the low salinity prevented the hatching of eggs.>
This currently looks rather appealing to me, since it's easiest to administer. Additionally, we would setup a bath for all fish and put them through it, in order to eliminate adult specimens and relieve fish of pest
while let hypo do the work on the eggs/remaining flukes.
We have already dipped all fish through 5-7mins Freshwater with adjusted pH + Tremazol + Furan2 dip, we've clearly seen flukes coming off. Fish looked relieved for short period (24h) but now infestation is blooming again so we need to deal with eggs in the system which are not controllable using Tremazol.
<If what you're dealing with here is N. melleni, I wonder why the surviving fish didn't develop an immunity to the parasite after the first prolonged exposure.>
In one of our emails, you have mentioned that some fish aren't tolerant to Hypo, is there a list of those species which I could look at? Currently we have Wrasse, Clownfish (not ocellaris), butterflies, tangs, angels both dwarf and large, various watchmen gobies, blennies, Dottybacks, damselfish, file fish... If there is no list it would help if you could pin point those that aren't good candidates for Hypo.
<Hyposalinity will cause any and all marine fish a degree of stress. How much stress any given fish can stand is dependent on so many variables.
Whatever you do, make sure you acclimate the fish to the reduced salinity slowly.>
Idea is to move fish that can't go into hypo to other system where we would try to nuke it with high dose of Tremazol to reach 20mg/l which you recommended.
<Unfortunately, in these situations, no one can tell you for certain what is best to do. If I were in your position, I would first treat all the fish with Tremazol. If you are unsure of the dose, start at 5 mg/l, then go to 8 mg/l, etc. Unless this is a bare bottom, fish and live rock only system, I would not apply hyposalinity to the system as a whole.>
Kind regards,
<Cheers, Sara L.>
Re: Gill worm / flukes       2/5/19

Dear Sara,
Tremazol didn't work in suggested nor increased dosage. We applied doses twice and we are still having issues fish are being eaten alive.
<What else have you tried?>
You will find quote regarding hyposalinity on this link on page 7:
<Wow. Great article. Unfortunately, it does not elaborate much on the use of hyposalinity for treatment of marine fish. I don't know if hyposalinity kills the eggs or not. Likely, if I had to guess, it probably damages them to the point that a significant percentage of them will never hatch. That might be sufficient to resolve the problem. Fish do have some ability to fight them off, when not overwhelmed. As far as which of your fish might not tolerate hyposalinity very well, again, it's hard to say. I would say
that any fish that is not known to be particularly hardy in captivity, generally, is probably going to tolerate any sub-optimal condition less than the more hardy species. The problem I see here is that you are going
to have to acclimate the fish to the hyposalinity, which will take at least days and preferably weeks. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like you don't have that kind of time.>
I'm not sure which type of monogenean it is, but its killing off some of our fish rather quickly, from the moment fish changes behavior its dead within 24h with clear signs of being eaten, both on fins as well as head area, occasionally there are open sores/wounds on the body as well. While other fish look perfect and acting normally.
<Can you send in some pictures?>
All fish are in our 3600 liter quarantine system that's divided into boxes, each box has its own drain which takes water down to central filtration unit, where biological filtration and mechanical filtration are. Afterwards water is pumped through the UV back into each box.
Water can't go between boxes, it has to go through drain>filtration>UV>into box. While dosing Tremazol we did turn off UV and lowered skimmer foam so it doesn't skim the medicine out.
Fish arrived from Bali, on 25th January, and we are battling flukes since day 2.
That's why we are in need of changing the method, this has proven to be ineffective.
<The article you provided, from TAMU, mentions a lot of different treatment options, one of which is copper. Have you tried copper in the quarantine system?
Cheers, Sara L.>
Re: Gill worm / flukes - 02/05/2019

I explained what we tried, Tremazol dosed fully twice, and fw bath with Nitrofurazone and Tremazol once.
<Yes, I saw. I was wondering if you had tried anything else. I see the answer is no.>
As for the article itself, yes it does explains vaguely and im unsure if it kills eggs was hoping you guys would know more about it :(
<The more I think about it, the more I think the article must be saying that 5 days of hyposalinity "killed" the eggs. Because if hyposalinity merely prevented hatching, why would 5 days be required? The statement seems to imply that the eggs still hatched if exposed to less than 5 days.
Thus, something must change after 5 days. The prolonged hyposalinity must cause some damage to the eggs after that period of time. I wish we could tell you for sure. It's not an easy thing to test/find out directly. The best anyone can do is observe to see if the eggs hatch. I suppose that if they don't hatch, then you might just as well assume they are "dead.">
As for copper, we do dose it to 0.12-0.14ppm for controlling possible protozoan infestations, didn't try to raise the dose due to wrasse and Centropyge being in this system, lastly article says copper can control but not kill flukes so im keen on applying more efficient method with, preferably less stress to fish than having 0.2 Cu.
<If all you need is 5 days of hyposalinity, maybe it's worth a shot. Again, my only worry is that you don't have time to acclimate the fish slowly enough. Tough choices.>
As for pictures here are couple i have on my phone.
<Yikes! I'm sorry you struggling with this. Do let us know if you use the hyposalinity and if it works.
Cheers and good luck,
Sara L.>

Re: Gillworm / flukes - 02/05/2019       2/6/19
We did fw + Tremazol double dose + Methylene blue 6-7 min dip on all fish yesterday, lost only one since. (Already weakened meleagris leopard wrasse).
We started pumping freshwater in the system slowly, sg dropped 1022>1016 within 5 hours, we let it stay at 1016 overnight and are lowering it down to 1010 today. Plan is to do it over the course of 6 - 8 hours.
Fish look fairly better than yesterday, hiding less and overall looking more active.
<Ah, good. Sometimes fish are pretty tough.>
Your conclusion regarding 5 days seems logical, i hope you are right. It would make no sense to put fish through hypo if its not efficient, so i guess you are right.
<::crossing fingers::>
Thanks for your continues effort in helping with this matter.
<I feel for you. I do hope all turns out well.>
Sara L.>

Re: Gillworm / flukes - 02/07/2019      2/7/19
2 days straight no deaths. Dip+hypo definitely helped. I think its under control now.
Thanks a lot for your help.
<I'm not sure how much I helped, but you're certainly welcome.>
Sara L.>

API Fish Medication... Mainly Metro-, Prazi-       8/24/18
Hi Bob,
<Hey Branko>
I've been having issue obtaining Metronidazole and Praziquantel locally. I was thinking of trying out API General Cure, if manufacturer is to be trusted it contains nothing but Metro and Prazi and is very effective in treating parasitic worms on the fish.
<The Prazi/quantel is... might be cheaper if you're using very much to just buy from a pharma source. I think Hikari sells it in bulk if you have a distributor locally>
I've found a new supplier which im overall happy with except some of their fish come with some form of Monogeneans (if im not mistaken).
<VERY common>
Fresh water dip usually takes care of it, however its way too much stress for some fish and I'd like to avoid losing fish due to that stress.
After reading up on API general cure I've noticed they have wide variety of other medications in their offer, are they any good? If yes which are worth looking into?
<All their "older" offerings are efficacious. DO avoid the more modern "herbal" "fixes"... they're shams>
Other than that I've seen Everything Aquatics advertising similar medication blends, as well as 100% pure active ingredients. This is my second choice, simply because I believe it will be easier to clear API's products on customs. Please advise on what would you use if customs is not something to worry about.
<My take on all is posted on WWM. Do you have a copy of Ed Noga, Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment? Either the 1st or 2d edition is highly recommended as a/the ONE source for reference>
Ps. I have discovered that Centropyge Angels can be easily kept in CU, when
introduced slowly, 0.02ppm per day, and with a chelated CU mix with 16/1 ratio of CU/citric acid (hope this helps your readers) :)
<Ah yes; I thank you>
Looking forward to your much valued advice.
Ps Happy Birthday! :)
<Ahh, again, appreciated. Bob Fenner>
Re: API Fish Medication; now Prazi avail., Centropyge dis. pic.       8/24/18

Thank you for swift reply.
Our local pharm company charges 350$ for 25 grams. While in the US 500$ 1kg. Just ridiculous.
<?! I'd contact Hikari: http://www.hikariusa.com/wp/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/
Their liquid prep. in one gallon is very useful... and already solubilized (i.e., in solution)>
Ps please refer to a pictures of Centropyge heraldi which are in attachment. What could cause that kind of damage? We did fw dip nothing fell off.
<.... can't tell much from a pic. Need sampling, microscopic examination...
Looks like a bacterially infected physically damaged area>
Fish has internal parasites it looks like it ate a whole marble
<... infection. Bob Fenner>

Fluke      5/18/16
I don't know if you guys can help or give advice on this but your website is the best clue I've found so far to my problem.
I found the closest picture to what I found on my regal tang and butterfly fish on one of your message boards and I read through it to see if anyone mentioned the name but there didn't.
<The image... lifted? Is the opisthaptor of a Monogene....>

I was wondering if anyone could help me identifying this parasite.
<.... on the basis of what?>
The fish were showing hazy eyes, shaking of the head, lethargy and scratching off rock. We did a freshwater dip and the flukes came out into the treatment tank.
<I'd add a bit of formalin... See the dip/bath S.O.P. on WWM>
I would like to figure out a treatment to clear the system but we have lps in the tank so quarantine is I think the only option for the fish.
<See.... READ on WWM re Monogenetic Trematode/Fluke treatments....>
If I could identify the species I could learn more about its life cycle and try break it to rid the tank of it completely.
<Need data mate. This isn't time for a guessing game. Bob Fenner>
Sent by iPhone
Re: Fluke      5/18/16
That image I sent was taken of the parasites that came off my butterfly fish after we did the dip, not lifted it was taken on my own microscope at home.
<Ah good. Will post then>
It was just similar to the picture I saw on your message board.
<Sorry for my misunderstanding your msg.>
What sort of data would be needed other than the image of the parasite and I can let you know ?
<What other life, livestock present. Do you have live rock, sand? Have you used Anthelminthics, Vermifuges already?>
<Thank you. BobF>

Re: Fluke       5/19/16
We have 3 Banggai cardinals, regal tang, bristle tooth tang, two clowns, 6 line wrasse, cleaner wrasse. Love rock and live sand.
<Due to these last two, I would be very careful of using de-worming medicines in this system. There are food-lacing techniques that may be worthwhile to try... These are gone over, archived on WWM. Do you consider that most all the flukes were removed from the tang and BF by your dip procedure?>
Lps corals, gorgonians and snakelocks anemone and beadlet anemone. Haven't treated the tank due to corals and the fluke treatment available in shops here aren't reef safe.
<There are none that are both safe and effective>
We have set up quarantine tank to take the fish out of main system and starve the parasites.
<Ahh; good>
I have identified the parasite to the genus Neobenedenia.
<Quite common>
I am lucky enough to have access to large amount of research through university libraries so I finally found some good papers about them and life cycle. Fresh water dipping
<pH adjusted, and w/ the formalin.... Read here:
and the linked files above re this biocide>
everyone before quarantine and going to starve the main tank parasite population for a month to be sure and then reintroduce the butterfly alone for monitoring to insure it's clean before releasing all the rest. We believe it was the butterfly that brought it in as she is newest fish and supposedly they are notorious with this parasite.
<Yes indeed. Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Coldwater box fish with flukes       3/31/16
I have an Ornate Boxfish that came to me last September in poor shape. He had a very cloudy eye and what looked like a lump on one fin.
He is still in qt almost 8 months later although he now shares qt with a few starfish, some snails and some anemones.
His tank is 75 gallons, kept at 61 degrees and he is well fed and cleaned.
The cloudy eye cleared up within a month, but the lump stayed. After 4 months, the lump was gone, but small spots showed up on all his fins.
These turned into the exact same kind of lump as the original blemish on his pectoral fin, except they were all over all his fins. We treated with Melafix,
<No!!! An at times toxic scam>
Prazi, formalin (twice), Neoplex, Ruby reef
<.... see WWM Re>
and vitamins. We even did a freshwater dip on the back half of him, while keeping salt water running over his gills and mouth.
One day, we did a manual inspection on these lumps and I tried to remove one. It came off with just a bit of effort, and upon inspection under a microscope, we found it had a leach type mouth and was actively looking for its host. We removed 15 in total from the fish.
We treated the wounds with polysporin and they appear to be healing. We also ran a double dose of Prazi after we removed the parasites. However it is a month later and we notice there are some very fine white dots and a couple of these dots appear to be growing.
<See (as in actually READ on WWM re other Anthelminthics.... coldwater settings... don't work as well>
How do we break the cycle and get rid of these pests?
<Reading... don't have the time, desire to re-key>
I would like to get the boy into his permanent home eventually and don't want to have him continue to suffer with parasites.
Here is an image of the flukes after we removed them. They were about 10mm diameter, and looked like poplar seeds. They were flat, round and slightly raised in the middle. They appeared to have a small 'tail', no eyes, and a
round sucker mouth on the underside. I froze them, in case someone could give me a better ID.
<Neat! Write back later after reading, trying other Vermifuges. READ before trying misc. "medicines" that are scams. Bob Fenner>

Re: Coldwater box fish with flukes       4/2/16
I appreciate your comments on Melafix, and will keep it in mind for future use.
<Ah good... if only there were statutes for selling such products as there are for human remedies....>
As we had started out 8 months ago dealing with 2 issues on this fish, we were looking for a solution to treat his eye that was not a sledge hammer.
It is quite possible that the Melafix had no impact at all on anything and that it was just good qt protocol that helped the eye clear up. So no more Melafix for us!
<Good... can interrupt nitrification; and who knows what other detrimental effects?>
Based on additional readings as you suggested it appears the parasite is a capsalid monogenean Trematode, except ours are huge compared to sizes I have found in reference material on line (ours measure 10mm easily).
<Yes; can occur this large in cooler water species>
I cannot find any references to how well a coldwater Boxfish will handle freshwater dips, or hyposalinity,
<Are fine w/ both>

so am opting instead for prolonged treatment in Praziquantel over the next couple of months, based on a starting program of 2.5mg/l and increasing over 10 days to 10mg/l and holding for 4 days. Will repeat 3 times. Does
this dosage get too aggressive?
<Mmm; no>
We did not eliminate the parasites at 5mg/l when we did Prazi last time.
<As you prev. stated; yes>
We can also change qt tanks between treatments and disinfect the tank with Virkon to eliminate any chance of detached eggs or free-swimming juveniles from surviving. Is this overkill?
<Likely so>
When we took Prazi to 5mg/l for a week during the last treatment program, we saw no change in the infection, and did see that the Boxfish quit eating. My concern with higher dosages is finding the balance between killing the parasites and not killing the fish.
I cannot find any information on suppression of effectiveness of Prazi at lower temperatures, but will call Hikari today.
<Ah; good>
If the Prazi does not work, then it appears we will have to try formalin again, although the last time we did formalin (both times), it had zero visible impact on the adult parasites.
<Assuredly, formalin WILL kill all external parasites... given dosage, exposure time>

Over the last 8 months I have had the advice of the marine biologist at our zoo and a fish vet, both of whom suggested using formalin. However have also read that formalin can be hard on fish.
<It is a biocide (kills all life... crosslinking peptides....)>

It may be that we have to do a higher concentration bath and then move the fish to a clean qt tank, but unless the parasites detach during the bath (and as adults they are clearly visible) they just come with the fish. Or
we manually remove the adults and focus on killing the juveniles with formalin.
If you think the ID on this parasite is wrong, please let me know. We cannot see any in the gills or in his mouth, but this does not eliminate the possibility that they are there or even internal. He does eat well, but has also lived with this infection for over 8 months.
<Monogenetic Trematodes are VERY common on fishes. VERY>
I have asked the seller if he has ever dealt with this parasite, and he has not. He did however notice what he thought was just a fin ray growth (which was the parasite) before the fish was shipped to me.
Thanks for your comments and help.
<Thank you for sharing. Bob Fenner>

Re: Coldwater box fish with flukes      4/15/16
Hi Bob,
We treated our box fish 10 days ago with Prazi (full strength dose,
<20 mg/l? I would use a formalin dip; move the fish elsewhere for two weeks.. to let the monogenes die off w/o a host. Am going to send you an article I just finished ayer re... from another machine here>
75 gallon tank) and he went sideways. Seriously sideways. At 5 days he was swimming sideways. So at 7 days we cleared the Prazi out, did a big water change and added carbon. Today we are at 10 days. He is eating well, but at times he is upside down, some times he is sideways, sometimes he is fine.
<Waiting till the fish is upright... better. Than the dip and exclusion SOP mentioned. Bob Fenner>

Cupramine leeching     7/30/15
Hello almighty saltwater gods. I am not worthy. So I was thinking.....what kinds of materials and what nots can hold Cupramine in a tank and cause the testing level to appear not to rise and/or then possibly leech back into the water when conditions change?
<Oh; this list is long... am sure one could use the Net, but am so olde that I'd be looking in a CRC Manual for common molecules likely to form in a marine aquarium habitat. Is cupric chloride, copper carbonate have a higher solubility product constant?>
For example, small clay pots, while they make nice caves, are porous. And can bits of uneaten food soak the medicine up enough to cause a problem?
<Mmm; not as much as the seawater itself, or "fresher" carbonate substrate and rock.... fired clay pots are somewhat chemically inert>
I know to remove uneaten food but I was thinking about using a seaweed clip and in that case, the food would spend more time in the water than flakes or Mysis. My bicolor blenny, usually fat and happy, is eating little.
I am currently having what seems to be a bit of trouble getting my Cupramine level above 3ish. All of my parameters are good and I only have a pre seeded filter, heater, two little clay pots and an airs stone in a bare bottom 20 long. I am treated a bicolor blenny and a royal gramma. I have been slowly raising the Cupramine level over the last week and I want to be sure I am at a good therapeutic level so I'm not wasting my time and unnecessarily stressing my fish. Also, I don't want to prolong their Ich misery. It is/was a slight case to my eyes. I did not follow the directions, dosing wise, because I have read it is better to slowly raise the Cupramine level, especially for the sensitive blenny.
Since the white spots, of which there were only two on the blenny's top fin, and one on the gramma' head, are not the actual parasite themselves, is their absence after or during treatment even a fairly reliable sign that treatment is working? Shouldn't the spots disappearing mean nothing more than the human equivalent of a scab falling off?
<Mmm; these spots may be from irritation of some sort... mucus accumulating.... Even Trematodes (seeing them btw very commonly here in Curacao the last week diving>
I have read that Cupramine may kill Ich at levels as low as .25 but I don't want to take the chance of under treating,
<Ah yes; and deep-embedded parasites, ones on fishes w/ thick mucus; even some "Crypt ""races" can be resistant to copper exposure>
particularly since my bicolor has not been eating well. I think he should be ok eating only a little so long as I can complete the treatment in a reasonable amount of time, say three weeks total. I am using a SeaChem test. My ammonia is good and I have been doing 20% water changes every three days, matching the temp, ph, SG, and Cupramine level in the new water with that of the tank prior to adding.
<Should test and replace the copper every day>
Besides that, the tank was fully cycled prior to treatment. I will remove Cupramine after treatment and let my tank remain fallow for 72 days total.
Thanks again.
<I and you very likely appreciate the vagaries of copper use... Hence my swerving allegiance to Quinine compounds (and always prevention via dips/baths, careful livestock selection, optimized, stable environment, good nutrition....) over recent years. Bob Fenner>
Re: Cupramine leeching... plus copy f'/Trematodes         8/3/15

Thanks again. My question regarding the seaweed clip....what I should have said was...Will the seaweed absorb the Cupramine and then maybe leech back into the water?
<It will absorb and re-lease very little copper. Not a worry. Again; there is some cupric ion in all life.... it, the element is an essential, albeit "micro" nutrient>
But before I read your reply I began to realize that my babies probably don't have ich at all. I think you are right about this being a case of Trematodes. My blenny's two fin spots have never changed location, only changed a bit in shape. I think I assumed ich mostly because of the scratching both fish were doing before I hospitalized them.
<Ahh! Saw a BUNCH of Flukes on fishes last week in Curacao.... more on more species than I've ever encountered in the wild. Tellingly, much more prevalent on fishes resident in some "environmentally modified" (polluted) locations>
I don't ask questions I don't want the answer to...so I will, in the future, use a quinine compound with good aeration as you suggest.
But......since I have been putting them through two weeks of Cupramine already, I think I will continue the course at least another week as a preventative measure (unless, of course, you tell me to do otherwise). I think it would still be wise to leave my display tank fallow for 72 days since I can't be sure ich isn't there somewhere.
<Well; not to bum you out, and ignore your self-admonition above, but Crypt is to degrees most every where there are tropical marine fishes>
After the Cupramine treatment is over, I think I should remove the Cupramine and dose PraziPro?
<Sure; or could do now. The two compounds as "mix-able">
Does a freshwater bath fit into this equation at some point? I have a bicolor blenny and a royal gramma.
<Better a FW bath, pH adjusted w/ formalin and aeration... see WWM re such SOPs and their specific use in eradicating external Trematodes>
Interesting that you saw an increase in Trematodes in the wild as I don't believe I have ever dealt with this pest in the last 15 years of fish keeping.
<Mmm; very common on (imported) angels, butterflies, tangs..... sharks>
I've dealt with ich before, and the spots always visibly disappeared after a couple of days in copper. I think I blamed my poor little clay pots for rendering my Cupramine ineffective, but all along,
<I have used hundreds of gallons of this fine product in commercial settings. It does precipitate (disappear) by about half every day... interacting with natural and synthetic seawater... MUCH more so if carbonaceous substrate/s is/are present. HAS to be assessed (tested for) and "topped up" daily or more often>
I misdiagnosed my problem. The lesson is always the same.....quarantine.
Thanks for your wealth of information and patience.
<A pleasure to relate/share. Bob Fenner>
Re: Cupramine leeching        8/4/15

Thank you, thank you. Now I have a clear course of action.
<Ahh! Am always (most of the time really) querulous whether I/we provide sufficient direction, background to aid others in resolute action>
I will have to wait a day or two until I can be home all day to execute the plan and observe the results. I have definitely learned a lot from this, including a new appreciation for tank size and aggression.
My gramma was fine with the bicolor blenny in the 55 gallon tank, but in the 20 with few hiding spots....not so much. I had to get a tank divider
after a particularly scary lip lock between the two. Since I witnessed the gramma seek out and stalk the blenny, I have placed the blame upon him. I think I will be putting the blenny into the display tank a couple of days before the gramma. I know blennies can be aggressive too, but so far, not mine.
One more question......".crypt is to degrees most everywhere tropical fish are".....Are you saying that eradicating ich in my main system is unlikely even after 72 days fallow?
<Unfortunately; yes. Some residual, resident population is likely to remain... not to be (too) teleological, but "waiting" for environmental, nutritional, social.... strain/stress, weakened "immunity" of host fishes.... to manifest itself as infestation>
I've always known this a possibility, and now I am wondering if I should just put the two fish back into the main system after the dip.
<Is likely what I would do...>
Rather blenny, then gramma to follow. I don't think the hospital is a particularly great place for either one of them. But still, I am willing to keep them there for the full 72 if you think it beneficial.
<There is a "tipping point" where isolation and what it entails encompasses/overwhelms its benefits... as opposed to being placed, left in a more stable setting>
Side note....I was wondering, in your diving experience, which fish was the most unusual, rare, or surprising one you every encountered?
<Heeeeee! So many!! Likely a couple of great hammerheads I met up with at about 200 feet doing a bounce dive in the Red Sea (looking for some wrasses for a friend; Tanaka-san)>
Thank you, thank you. -Alyson
<Certainly welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Cupramine leeching      8/8/15

Thanks again. So I did a freshwater dip with Methylene blue (as I was able to get this at the LFS). Formalin, I was only able to find online and I did order it, but wanted to get started asap. He jumped around quite a bit. I did get worried as I have read that trying to jump is a sign of distress, and I know blennies are generally sensitive, so he was probably in the solution maybe 5 minutes. I am hoping that the Cupramine for just under three weeks and the small amount of time with the meth blue worked on his Trematodes.
<... The freshwater may, but copper and Methylene Blue neither do really.
See WWM re Trematodes; their treatment with purposeful Anthelminthics>

I'm sure I will let you know!!!! He is back in his DT, peeking around live rocks. I want to make him fat and happy before I put his frenemy, the Royal gramma back in too.
The last email we discussed entrenched crypt populations, and the possible futility of fallow periods. I will observe these two fish, once they are both in the 55 together and consider a complete tank overhaul should I suspect undesirable critters lay waiting. I can do this because I have a spare 90 gallon laying empty about my home. I just don't care for its location as it is in a room we don't frequent as much as the 55. This is why I started up the 55 and not the 90. Too many rooms, too much cleaning, tanks and otherwise. Of course, I always knew having both tanks eventually running would be a matter of time, as this is quite the addiction.
Thank you, thank you. Alyson R
<W. B>
Re: Cupramine leeching... Poss. fluke on Blenny, trtmt.        9/9/15

Hello again. It has been about 6 weeks since we discussed my crypt-turned-flukes problem and all is (mostly) well in my little piece of the ocean. Here's the thing....my bicolor blenny, who seemed ok for the first 5 weeks after his Cupramine (misdiagnosis) then freshwater dip, is flashing a bit.
<Mmm; some flashing is natural>

Over the last week, I have been looking for signs of ich, and it appears to me that he may have a fluke issue again. He has an irregular, small spot on his dorsal fin, in the same place as last time. Maybe he never fully eradicated the original flukes, or they could be in my system. I am a bit reluctant to freshwater dip again, as he didn't like it last time, but I have the formalin you recommended and will likely do this. I have some conflicting info regarding dipping blennies. I have read that they should
not be dipped, and you recommended me to dip them in previous conversations.
<Though small (unless very small specimens), blennies, blennioid fishes are slimy (again; unless quite sick) and capable of withstanding dipping procedures. Better this than extended periods of isolation/quarantine and the stress and starvation there that all too often leads to their loss>

Of course, I could hospitalize and treat with PraziPro. Being human, I would prefer the shorter course of action...i.e......dipping. I do love this little guy, named Sam I Am, and don't want to lose him, especially to my impatience. I got him as a little guy, maybe less than an inch, and he is over three inches now, gorgeous coloring, delightfully peaceful benevolent dictator of my tank. By the way....returning him to my display from the hospital tank a couple of weeks before the Royal gramma totally established a serene pecking order, even better than before treatment! The two used to
tolerate each other, now they swim together. So.....to dip or not to dip?
<Up to you; I would... oh, and look to see if the "spot" releases, and gently pinch it off with your fingers if not>
Thanks for your enduring patience and advice. Alyson R.
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>

Help to identify and treat disease     12/4/14
I was wondering if you know what this disease is, nobody seems to want to guess

<On the Paracanthurus here I take it... Have you sampled any of these... looked under a 'scope? Either something surface like monogenetic Trematodes (flukes), or Microsporidean>
I took these pictures today a week later, his forehead is now expanding, I have done extensive freshwater dips and am dosing Cupramine but no reaction so far.
<Not treatable w/ copper>

I'd really like some help with this and don't know what it is,
Thanks in advance,
<See WWM re the above... the former are easily treated w/ prophylactic dips/baths and Anthelminthics, the latter... not treatable as yet as far as I'm aware. Only improving the environment, nutrition... optimizing and stabilizing the fishs health will it be able to improve if Microsproridean (internal) involvement. Bob Fenner>

Re: Help to identify and treat disease      12/4/14
Thank you for the quick reply, the bulging band across the forehead has receded somewhat as four white parasites now hang out of it whereas it was a smooth bulge before. I will have a go at the dips with some trematode medication and ease off with the Cupramine.
<Good; I'd give up on the copper... see WWM re this and Tangs; a poor match>
I see hypo is ineffective for flukes too and the main tank has been in hypo for many weeks so by process of elimination it may well be flukes. Thanks again,
<Easily identified w/ sampling, microscopic exam... and just as easily eliminated. READ on WWM re.

Re: Help to identify and treat disease     12/7/14
Hi Guys unfortunately not looking good at present. Video update here
<Mmm; Paracanthurus looks like it's developing HLLE, the Y. Tang breathing hard... rest of fish look fine; but a Clown Trigger (dangerous; will kill other fishes in time), and a hamlet/sweetlips?! Not easily kept>
Have dosed with http://www.aquarium-munster.com/en/marine-water/remedies/gyromarin.html
<I see; a product of Praziquantel>
3 days ago as recommended in case is Trematodes but now yellow tang looks like is bleeding from lateral line and heavily infected with growths causing craters too.
Blue tang continues to be disfigured as the 'parasite' erodes deeper, especially in the face, and dotted sweetlips also affected
with holes appearing in his head over the top and underneath gills. The purple lips Flagfin has a single dot on the forehead that has been there about a week but the join of his pelvic fins is blood red. Bannerfish eats a few bits off the yellow tang on cleaning service and clown trigger seems largely unaffected. The setup is about 2 years old but never had such a difficult issue. It is about 3.5 weeks into the infection. Is fish only setup with uv, protein skimmer (both off for 3 days on meds) and sump filter tank below so any meds can go in the display tank. Anything else I might try? I don't have a scope unfortunately. Thanks Ed
<The scope; as originally stressed. There's very little sense in "treating" for something you don't know. Perhaps a download and reading of the second  ed. of Ed Noga's "Fish Disease; Diagnosis & Treatment"... you can get from Amazon.com for a nominal charge for the e-version. Call around; some fish stores, colleges w/ bio. depts. will have microscopes, folks to help.
Bob Fenner> 

Re: Help to identify and treat disease... Flukes    12/7/14
Thanks Bob, I tested all the water parameters and found nitrite had shot up, no ammonia or nitrate, so did about a 50% water change and redosed lost Praziquantel. Ca, Mg and pH all on low borders but probably because is slightly hypo still. I did 5 minute freshwater dips of the Sweetlips, yellow tang, blue tang and Flagfin with Paraguard. The majority of the infection dropped off the yellow tang this time,
<Preserve some... just with distilled clear alcohol if nothing else... to look at under a scope>
he is still breathing hard and his face and body look like they are covered in acne scars now, lots of sore little red holes remain.
<Likely fluke haptor holes>

Less obvious reaction on the blue tang but perhaps less white and more grey/black at the infected points. They all seem quite content and swimming around since. I have upped the water surface agitation to make up for the skimmer loss and added some Pimafix

at the fish importer's recommendation to help the raw skin heal. I don't know if it will do any good so long as it does not harm them but they say it works for them. Mind you they also said vodka or white vinegar solution directly on the infection works but will leave that as a last resort.
Regarding the Sweetlips I have found him one of the hardiest fish I have cared for since had him the past six months. He fed on pellets ravenously from day one. I have read a lot of people saying they drop dead quite quickly without reason but six months in he is growing well and has dodged ich when it affected other fish. I am just concerned he will need a lot more space. I see the Persian Gulf is the edge of his natural habitat so in a worst case scenario I'd put him back to sea - as am based in Dubai.
<Don't do this. NEVER return captive organisms to the wild... too much chance of introducing other undesirables>
 So far I would have recommended him to others as a starter fish were it not for all the chat about how difficult they are on forums. Seeing as they seem a rarity in the US perhaps they were just caught with too much cyanide and didn't last long. The local Filipino fish shop owner always say they are a very strong fish and easy to feed. Time will tell. Thanks for all your help, really appreciate it and will get the recommended book, I did a fair bit of reading of the Merck Veterinary Manuals which was interesting and a good free resource too
<Ahh; thank you for this>
. Scope might be a tougher purchase in Dubai.
Best Regards,
<Mail order if nec. B>

Attn: bob-achilles tang; and Trematode f'     11/29/14
Hey fellow name sharer,
<Hey Rob>
As discussed before, I restarted my 155 fowlr august 4, and the tank has been cycled since midway point September.
My lfs was having. 25 percent off sale this week, in which I took a purple tang. It died shortly after, so after explaining situation, he have me the credit to use on it, and I picked up my two favorite fish, Aussie tusk and an Achilles tang.
Unlike my previous achilles which I killed while trying to quarantine (ammonia) this one is larger, in the 4 to 5 inch range, and has been at the store since august. Has not yet showed signs of ich at the store, and I know the store runs a low level of copper.
<Ah yes; most all LFS do>

Once in my tank, he ate right away, and is very active. Later that night I noticed just one of his eyes appeared to be foggy (thought it was flukes) but after More observation, it's a blue tint, on just the one eye. I know after reading achilles can have some shades of Blue on them, but being it is just one, I am not sure.
<I wouldn't panic>
My first instinct was a fw dip, or Prazi pro, but looking back at my mistakes, over reacting, I did nothing.
I know they are sensitive fish, and not cheap, would you say the laid back approach here is the way to go? Or is one eye always an indication of an issue, whether it be bacterial, flukes etc.
<I do like dips (short term baths) of pH adjusted freshwater (aerated if RO or doing a bunch of fishes); with formalin if you have it... for these (Acanthuroid) fishes. They almost always sport a bunch of Trematodes coming from the wild; or mixed in with fishes from same>

Thanks again for your time. I hit an all time low this summer with fish trying to be a hero, and want to change my approach for the better going forward.
Thanks bob
<Welcome. B. Fenner>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang     11/29/14

Hey bob,
Thanks for the input, always appreciated .
Upon getting home from work early tonight I devoted my time to paying close attention to the eye of the achilles. These tangs move a lot and often, so getting a good view is tough.
While looking at this eye, I saw little oval shaped pieces on the eye,
much to my displeasure. I believe them to be flukes. I did not fw dip this fish in fear if killing it just as what happened with the purple tang a week ago.
<As prev. mentioned... I ALWAYS do>

I knew the "just having different eye color" was wishful thinking. I can try to catch fish tomorrow and fw dip, but I do have about 175 lbs of rock.
Being I am running a therapeutic (sp) level of Cupramine , could I shut My skimmer off and run one or two courses of Prazi pro as well for the flukes?
<You could... there may be water quality issues from the Prazi killing off a good deal of Vermes biomass... you might want the skimmer on>
I waited about 6 hours to make sure my eyes weren't fooling me. He also has what looks like mini seeds (white) on his black body.
<.... sigh... too likely Trematodes as well>
And if caught, for a fw dip, is taking two gallons of fresh ro, pumped with a strong pump for an hour, pinch of reef buffer the trick? I have a pinpoint but can throw it a lot further than I can trust it. I just don't want a repeat of last week . Thanks again and hope your not experiencing the 24 degree weather we have!
<... no thanks! It's time, perhaps past-time for me to suggest you getting, using a simple microscope. B>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang     11/30/14

Microscope will look into. What does a good one run these days?
<See my scant input on WWM re... I have a really neat Intel/Mattel QX near hand that was under a hundred US... up to 400 power, two light sources, USB connection... FAB!>
Also about the Prazi, it says on bottle to turn off uv and skimmer. With Cupramine, I didn't know if the Prazi would be a "reducing" agent like a dechlorinator would, supposedly that makes the copper deadly toxic.
<These do have to be off lest they remove the med.s quickly and for the UV, result in coating of the lamp or sleeve... hard to remove>
I hope these companies stick those notes on the bottle in cya fashion. I be read some others using Cupramine( bounded copper) with Prazi.
Thank you
<Can be used together. Pardon the emboldening but "SHOULD USE IN treatment tanks", and of course "PREVENTION is far better, vis a vis dips/baths... There's a bit of disc. re the same the last few days twixt Lemon Tea, myself and others. B>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang     11/30/14

Ok. So just to be absolutely sure. When SeaChem says not to mix with reducing agents,
<? Proton donors, electron acceptors? Am an olde ex H.S. chem. and physics teacher>
such as ammonia or chlorine removers,
Prazi pro from Hikari would not fall into that category, and would be fine to mix?
<As far as I'm aware; yes>
I am at about .35 level of the Cupramine. My believe and joy would be to extract cooper after a few more weeks to help the tang ease in without fear of ich,
<It may die from flukes first, or complications thereof really... such as non-feeding>
but at same time, with eye already cloudy, and other fish starting to "head shake", I may not have a few more weeks to play with.
I can go home tonight, do a 1/3 water change. Knock the copper down to .2, run some carbon a few hours, and dose with Prazi.
I supposed I am starting to panic, and a war is raging between heart and brain. I want to exhibit patience, but at the same time do the right thing for my livestock.
<When, where in doubt, do nothing... Or better, keep reading, seeking to understand what's going on; your options>
If I am comprehending effectively so far, and this was your tank, you would begin the Prazi pro tonight, even with elevated copper levels?
<... not going to repeat myself a fourth time.>
This reminds me of something a college professor told me once, and that is if you keep looking and reading, you will find contradictions that you might inadvertently be looking for.
In my case I suppose I was looking/scouring for something telling me you can not mix Cupramine along with Prazi.
Thank you again for providing your ears and cranium. I feel this hobby is a game of poker, with much higher stakes!
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang     11/30/14

Hey bob, not sure about the chemistry terms. Here is the excerpt from SeaChem's website:
Q: I've been dosing with Cupramine™ and then I added Product X and everything died. What happened?
A: If Product X is a reducing agent such as ParaGuard™ (or other aldehyde based medications), or if you overdose with a dechlorinator, such as Prime® then the Cu+2 will be reduced to Cu+. Cu+ is 10 times more toxic than Cu+2.
<Ah yes; Aldehydes can be oxidized...>
This is what I was not sure of. If the was Prazi would fall into the same boat as the products mentioned.
<No... Look both up on Wiki... Praziquantel is best administered via food/s... has a short metabolic life. Mode of action is entirely different. B>
Re: Attn: bob-achilles tang     11/31/14

Thank you bob! That was the one thing holding me back from having confidence. I now see there should be no interference with Prazi and cupramine.bim assuming formaldehyde is a reducer, different animal than dewormer.
I know, display tank is far from ideal for dosing Meds. I lost about 2900 in fish this summer trying to medicate in qt, and have a bit of a bad taste still.
I get out of work in an hour, I plan on feeding real good, water change, shut off skimmer and uv, (bio pellet reactor leave on?)
<If you'd like... just supplies C>
and dosing Prazi, again 5 days from now and after resuming therapy level of copper again.
I feel good now, thanks!!
<Welcome. B>
achilles update; Re flukes     12/3/14

Hey Bob-
Just wanted to be courteous and give you an update. You did offer sound advice, and I feel you not knowing the outcome would be unfair.
With that said, I am on day four of the Prazi, and all I can say is "wow".
The Achilles eye has improve 100 percent, and he is starting to eat more, and seems to be putting on some mass.
<Ah good>
Consequently, I have seen some worm like structures floating in the water column, and other fish, including my aussie tusk, and durgeon trigger, look to be perfecting there look. The trigger looked okay, but since the induction of Prazi pro, has had white marks surfacing and falling off his body.
<Not surprising... as you'll see from reading, there are MANY worm parasites... in aquatic environments, terrestrial...>
I have one more day, will complete a 25 percent water change, and dose one more time for 5 days. Hopefully that will cut it, but knowing me, I will play it safe and hit it one more time.
Perhaps the most aggravating part of this whole endeavor is preventing this.
<?... dips, baths... >
My fish had all be quarantined in copper and Prazi, my tank was bleached out and restarted, and this new Achilles was in the local lfs tank for four months, seemingly no signs of ich or flukes. (I visit there 2-3 times a week). Why it snowballed in my tank, I guess the answer is it needed only one to get it started.
<Mmm; yes>
Thanks again Bob. I am trying to be smarter this time around, not a shoot and ask questions later type. What makes that tough is the dollar sign next to some of these fish.
Thanks, Bob
<And you for this follow up. Happy holidays. BobF>

FW dipping 3/28/13, flukes, Prazi use in DTs/Reefs        3/28/13
Hi crew!  I believe I have some of my fish have gill flukes in the main tank. I have a Flame Centropyge in a QT and did a dip on him today....holy cow!!! It was disgusting! He had 20-30 flukes on him and I never saw them on the fish. Anyway, I want to dip the fish from the main tank but I don't know if any of them are contraindicated for freshwater dips. Occupants are:
Solorensis Wrasse, Canary Blenny, Hi Fin Red Banded Goby, Sleeper Goby and  a Halichoeres leucoxanthus.  The Canary Blenny and the Sleeper Goby have been scratching for over a week but no one has spots. Of course the dip will be pH, temp matched and aerated. Thank you!  Jennifer
<These fishes/species are all good candidates for dipping, short immersion baths. Bob Fenner>
Re: FW dipping 3/28/13    

Thank you, Bob
<Welcome Jenn! B>
Re: FW dipping 3/28/13

Hey Bob,
 Just went to check on the Flame in the QT and he is hanging out at the top of the water right under the HOB filter. He's been in the QT 2 weeks. Is this normal considering all the flukes that came off of him?  Jenn
<Not unusual behavior... small volumes, being stressed by handling... B>
FW dipping 3/29/13

Thanks Bob. I didn't think he would make it through the night but so far he has. I have a issue with the main tank. Ok, here goes: I think some of the fish in the main tank have flukes.
<Trematodes are very common (ubiquitous almost) on marine fishes... some are quite species, genus specific; others more general in their parasitism>
 Reason I think this is 3 days after adding the Canary Blenny he started to scratch on the sand. A few days later the sleeper goby started to scratch, although he stopped a day or so later. Then the yellow wrasse scratched a couple of times.  Now the Sol<o><not a>rensis, who is like a dog, is hiding a lot. They are all still eating, no spots and all but the Blenny are hiding.  This has been going on for 8 days. I dipped the Canary Blenny and it looked like little worms were in the bucket but I can't be 100% sure they were worms. Also there were things that looked like little flukes, again not positive. I did dip the Goby today for 5 minutes. I didn't see anything come off him that I could identify except what I think is sand.
Finally, my question, should I 1. QT all the fish and treat with PraziPro?
2. FW dip fish, put back in main tank and keep watch? There is definitely something going on in the tank, I just can't figure out what it is. Sorry for the long email and thank you!
<You could try the Prazi... toxic to all worms... B>
Re: FW dipping 3/29/13

I've read that some have used PraziPro in a reef tank with no repercussions,
<Mmm, not likely "none">
 however that makes me nervous. Have you heard that it can affect the biological filter? My LFS told me that it could even though the PraziPro bottle says it won't.  Your thoughts?
<... won't affect nitrifiers, denitrifiers directly... but killing off large numbers, biomass of Vermes can have bad consequences... One should be prepared to counter, or move intentional livestock. B>
Re: dipping     3/29/13

I do have quite a few Vermes, red, pink and yellow ones I'd like to keep.
So it looks like they are going into the QT with the Flame and all will get PraziPro.  Thank you kind sir:) Jenn
<Ah, good, and welcome. BobF>
FW dipping; Prazi use    4/8/13

Hi crew! I am currently treating a Flame angelfish, Spotted Goby and a Yellow Wrasse in a QT with PraziPro for flukes.  I started the treatment on Sunday. For two days the fish hid and did not eat. On day 3 they came out of hiding and their color returned. On day for the angelfish scratched and started losing color.
<Change the... oh, see this below>
On day five I did a 50% water change and put in a poly filter. Forgetting that the poly filter was in I redosed as per their instructions. Five hours later I realized my mistake and took out the I did not put in more PraziPro because I was afraid of an overdose. I did a freshwater dip for five minutes on the flame angelfish and got 10 flukes off him. My question:
should I do a water change and do the regimen again?
<Yes I would>
 I know the second dose is to kill eggs. How many days after the first dose should the second dose go in?
<Two, three>
 The instructions say 5-7 days but that can leave a big window for eggs to hatch and reinfest the tank/fish.
I ordered a microscope to start doing gill scrapings, etc.
Thank you for your help!  Jennifer
<Thank you, Bob Fenner>
Re: FW dipping
Ok so I see where my mistake was. I dosed 5 days after..eggs had hatched.
Thanks Bob..you rock! :) Jennifer
<And roll! Cheers Jenn. BobF>
Flukes/PraziPro       4/22/13
Hi crew!
 I have a Flame Angel in a 20 gal QT.  He is being treated for flukes with PraziPro and it is not working.
<...Really? Are you sure these are flukes? Are you using the Prazi correctly? Is it an old/er package? I'd switch to another vermifuge. These are gone over on WWM>
  Per an email from Hikari I did a 50% water change and dosed with PraziPro.  I repeated this process 3 more times every 3 days. Yesterday was the third day after the last (4th) dose. This morning he is scratching.
<... could be scratching for other reasons>
 I did a dip on him and flukes!  I liked the PraziPro because the fish tolerated it well and ate.
What other treatment would you recommend? I have done a ton of research and it all points to PraziPro. I do have QuickCure (Formalin, Malachite Green) on hand. Could I use this a bath (30-60 minutes)?
<... not this long, a duration at full/ish strength, no. Toxic; very>
  Will this kill any eggs that are on the fish?
<?... there are no such things>
 I have been fighting these things since April 1. All other fish seem to be doing well.  Thank you for your help! Jen
<More reading... less toxic chemical use. Bob Fenner>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro      4/23/13

Hi Bob!
Yep, I'm sure it's flukes.  There are about 4 of them in the bucket I dipped him in. I am saving them to look at once my microscope arrives.
<Ah good>
I bought the PraziPro from my LFS but there is no expiration date on it.
I'm going to order some online today. Maybe that's what the problem is. I don't want to use anything toxic on the fish.
<Maybe and good>
I've read that some species will lay eggs on the fish. I will keep researching. Thank you
<... didn't know this re Trematode repro.... BobF>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro         5/2/13
Hi Bob,
 I'm still battling flukes with the Flame Angel. It appears they are winning.
<? Are you absolutely sure these are flukes?>
At Hikari's advice the dosage was tripled and they haven't died. I did a freshwater dip on the Flame yesterday and didn't see anything come off. I saved the water to look at through the microscope, which arrived today. I did find "something" that looked like a fluke, but it on a slide and yuck!
It/they were moving.  And they've been in freshwater for 24 hrs!
They appear to be encased perhaps an egg?
Could/if I send it to you could you either tell me what I'm dealing with or refer me to someone that could identify these things?  Thank you
<Do send along well resolved images. I "do" fish pathology... in fact the third gig of the newest Fish Health Conference is coming back up:
Bob Fenner>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro        5/2/13

Hi  Bob,
  No, I'm not 100% positive this is flukes.
<Do appear to be>

  The first time I dipped the Flame there were flukes.  But that was a month ago and several doses of PraziPro ago.  But he has faded color, hiding, hanging out in the return and at the top of the water. He's also stopped eating in the last 2 days.
<May be the effects of the Prazi...>
Do you think it's possible that since the dosage of PraziPro was tripled this sent the Trematodes into a reproducing frenzy?
<Don't know>
They seemed to have gotten worse since this dosing regimen.
<Time to switch to another/different vermifuge/anthelminthic... Maybe Levamisole if you can get i>
  Here are a few pictures.  I do have a video if that will help but I will have to send it separately.  Thank you, Bob!
<Have seen enough here. B>

Re: Flukes/PraziPro         5/2/13
Thanks Bob! I will work on getting the Levamisole.  I don't know why the PraziPro is not working. According to Hikari they have yet to come across any Trematode that it won't kill.
<My experience matches theirs>
Thanks again, Bob:). Jen
<Welcome. BobF>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro       5/2/13

Bob, sorry, forgot to ask. How much on dosage, frequency, etc. I've been researching this and can only find Levamisole being used for AEFW.
<Mmm, yes; the same; gone over here:

 I'm ordering I today. Jen
<Cheers, BobF>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro       5/2/13

So what could be my problem?
<... a few guesses: Something defective w/ the compound, some sort of resistance, some countered condition of your water>
 This is the third bottle I've used. Is there any way to tell the type of Trematode?
<Mmm, yes; there are systematists in this field... morphological, genetic means>
... Microcotyle? (most infects gills of Angelfish).
If the PraziPro won't kill them then will anything else? Jen
<Hopefully so, yes. For sure formalin/formaldehyde... A biocide, as in "life" and "cease" (caedere in L.). B>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro    5/2/13

Oh! So the same dosage for flukes as AEFW! Got it:) thanks
Re: Flukes/PraziPro    5/2/13

That was my thinking so I ordered powder Praziquantel.
I didn't want to but I did a formalin dip yesterday on the Flame. He did ok through out it. I then put him into a sterilized tank.
<... dangerous, but effective>
I did read a paper on hypo being effective against flukes and the eggs.
<Not often entirely. B>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro     5/3/13

I did a lot of reading before I did the dip. It was aerated for 2 hrs prior, timed and I watched him constantly for stress. He actually did more swimming in there than he did before and after the dip.  I don't think he's going to make it. I just dosed him with PraziPro again.
 It has, in the past, given him relief so at this point I have nothing to lose. Jen
<I'd summarily pH-adjusted formalin bath this fish and move it to a non-infested system. B>
Re: Flukes/PraziPro     5/3/13
When you say pH adjusted is the water to be freshwater or salt?
<.... see WWM re>
 I used saltwater with the formalin dip (45 minutes)
<Way too long...>

 yesterday then moved him into clean tank. I've read this can be done every 3 days for 4 treatments...kind of like tank transfer method for Ich.
I used the PraziPro because it did help him for weeks, to the point I thought we had kicked the flukes. It's only in the last week they got bad.

Flame getting over flukes... Trematode and dips f's    5/16/13
Hi crew!
 How long after fluke treatment should I wait to put a Flame Angel into the main tank?
<A few days... I'd pH-adjusted freshwater dip the fish enroute to the main/display>
 The last day of the PraziPro treatment was last Saturday. I did a freshwater dip and no flukes came off of him. Thank you!  Jennifer
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Flame getting over flukes   5/16/13

Thank you, Bob! I'll wait a few more days on the Flame before I out him in.
Another question, are there any species of fish that you would not recommend running through a freshwater dip?
<Oh yes... mostly (perhaps not by coincidence) ones that are found in close/r relations w/ invertebrates... E.g. Clownfishes...>
  I have a spotted goby that has also been in a QT.  He was in the same QT as the Flame but he was moved into his own tank 2 weeks ago. I'm wanting to move him into the main but I want to do  a dip on him first. Thank you!
<This should be fine... As long as the fish is in good shape. Bob Fenner>
Re: Flame getting over flukes   5/17/13

Thanks again, Bob!  He seems good (no scratching, flashing, yawning, etc)
but he has not eaten in 2 days.
<Congratulations, and not to worry re the non-feeding...>
 I'm thinking it may be the stress of being in a bare bottom QT tank. He doesn't really come out of the PVC. Thank you for your time:) Jennifer
<Move this fish to the main/display. BobF>

Tanged and confused: Oversized fish, Flukes 10/20/2009
Hi there,
I bought a 55 gallon fish tank a little over a week ago. I bought the whole set up from a man who had a 20 gallon refugium with gravity feed hose and a protein skimmer (not sure on the name) My test kits are kind of old so I have been taking the water to the LFS to be tested and every time (3x's) it has been fine.
<I highly recommend you purchase your own test kits, less moral fish stores will tell you that your water is fine to encourage you to buy more animals.>
I am a little worried a because of the fish that this man had kept in the tank. He had a Clown fish (about 3 in) a Sailfin Tang (about 4 in)
<The Sailfin Tang needs to find a new home, way to big in the long run, and likely to big now considering he has been in the tank at least two years.>
these two he had had for about 2 years and then he had added more recently (with in the last few weeks) a Blue Tang (1.5 in)
<Also way too large for this tank, although he fits in the tank physically now, psychological stress can be caused by being kept in such a small tank.>
As far as aggression goes they are all fine. The Blue Tang hides often and the other two let her. Though I know I will need to upgrade to a 150 gal or larger in the future or re-home one of the Tangs, for now they seem to be doing fine.
<I would find them new homes ASAP and research stocking a 55G aquarium on WetWebMedia.>
The problem I have seen is with the Blue Tang. I have seen whitish circular spots on her and her belly is looked swollen. She has also been scratching A LOT and so my hunt for a cause and cure started. I have been reading up on your site for 2 days now and it sounds like monogenetic Trematodes though I have been overwhelmed by the amount of information out there. She swims oddly (no other way to really say that) spends most of her time hiding or at the top of the tank (often face down). She has been eating and seems happy enough so that's a plus. I need help in how best to treat this.
< I would recommend a Prazi treatment in a separate quarantine tank, there are several products available commercially including PraziPro, however there are other options for treatment, read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmidcuref.htm.>
Also because I bought this as a complete set up I do not have a QT set up though I am going to set one up today. I am however unsure as to how to set up a QT in one day'¦ maybe use cycled water from my tank and add new salt water to my display? Then use the sponge my in my refugium as a filter in my QT and replace with another sponge though I do have a 5 gallon refugium I could use (your thoughts on
<That sounds like an excellent start, make sure to provide some flow, and during medications you use be sure to make sure the water is adequately aerated, although the powerhead may take care of that depending on the tank you set up. Just make sure to pick up a test kit and continually test this "quarantine" water and administer water changes as needed.>
Am I off base in any way? Please point me in the right direction. Thank you for your time.
<I think you have a good start to your research, and I would highly recommend setting up a quarantine and treating your fish. However, both of the tangs should be returned or gifted to another aquarium keeper with a minimum of a 6ft tank for them to be kept in.>
<Good luck,
Josh Solomon.>

Flukes Hello WWM crew! <Bob, it's Bob> Is it safe to dose a marine fish-only system ( retail ) with Praziquantel? Flukes are becoming problematic, and are costing too much time. We dip all new arrivals in FW, but still are experiencing this problem. Within a week of arrival, Angels and Tangs are covered in these disgusting worms. We now dip all outgoing fish before departure, but as you can imagine, this is difficult, especially on weekends. <Mmm, yes, can be done... and I would amend your bath/dipping procedures adding formaldehyde to the mix (about an ounce per five gallons, a one-gallon capful per two gallons...) of 37 % food-grade> Since you guys are my best info buddies, I ask for your help again. What do ya think, and how do I fix this? <Mmm, Praziquantel can be used in marine (not freshwater) systems with fluke problems (both mono- and Digenes)... Do you have sub-systems for your marine fishes? Or capacity to separate them completely? I might look around for other suppliers if this is a constant problem... And to all, if you're dealing much with fish livestock from the wild, and/or a mix of species imported, do invest in a copy of Edward J. Noga's "Fish Disease, Diagnosis and Treatment"... wish this was less expensive, more widely distributed... can be had through on-line book sources... Bob Fenner> Thanks in advance, Bob Hartline The Aquarium, Concord, Ca.

- That's 'Todes, not Toads - I have just noticed about 7-9 extremely small parasitic Trematodes (or flukes) in my salt water reef tank. <Are they on your fish or around and about?> What can I do? <Not all 'todes are necessarily parasitic. Unless these are directly on your fish or you corals, I wouldn't be too concerned.> I just put my black percula into the tank yesterday after treating him with formaldehyde and malachite green for a week. I just put the fish in the tank last night before I saw any of the Trematodes. I know they will begin to multiple and ruin my fish tank if left alone. <Not necessarily.> Although I do not have a lot of corals in there currently, what I do have is precious and currently I have no where else to place the corals to allow me to treat the tank with any solution. <Perhaps it's time to obtain such equipment.> It is a 29 gallon saltwater tank with an anemone, black percula, royal Gramma, 10 blue legs and scarlet reef hermits, one serpent star, and a couple corals (none of which have been purchased in the last 6 months). The ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0, pH = 8.3, alkalinity = 8-10, calcium = 400ppm. How can I prevent the spread and overgrowth of these unwanted parasites? <Again, I'm not convinced these are parasitic - there are only a couple of treatments that work against the 'todes and if you must treat, you'll have to remove all the invertebrate livestock from the tank. Fenbendazole, Piperazine, and Praziquantel are the most common treatments for nematodes and Cestodes, but are typically administered in baths for the affected fish. I'd keep a very close eye on things for the mean while, looking for problems with the fish, not necessarily just crawling around.> Jennifer <Cheers, J -- >

Is This Treatment A Fluke? (Use of Praziquantel To Combat Flukes) Is Praziquantel (Droncit) effective for flukes in marine fish? <This stuff has been used by some people to treat flukes effectively. It should be administered carefully, like any medication> How does it affect inverts? What would be the right dosage to get rid of gill and body flukes? <I would not administer this, or any medication in the display tank, regardless of the presence of inverts. The dosage that I have seen used to combat flukes is 1ppm in saltwater. I know a couple of people who swear by the stuff...Have not used it personally, however.> I hope it still works in marine aquarium and is easy on the inverts... It's magical in FW, no stress on fish, ok for bio-filtration etc... Thanks, Luke <Well, Luke- Praziquantel is certainly something that is being used more and more these days to combat flukes in marine fish. You could also use Formalin-based medications, or those containing Malachite Green...It's worth a shot, however, if you're up to trying it...Good luck! Regards, Scott F>

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