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FAQs on Paravortex, Black
Spot, Black "Ich", Turbellarian Worm Disease, Diagnosis/Symptomology Related Articles: Marine
Parasitic
Disease, Parasitic Worms, Roundworms,
Related FAQs on
Blackspot Disease: Black Spot Disease 1,
Black Spot Disease 2, Etiology/Prevention,
Cures That Don't Work, Cures That Do Work,
Products/Manufacturers...
& Fish
Worm Diseases 1,
Marine Worm Parasites
2, Marine Worm Parasites 3, & FAQs on
Marine Worm Parasites: Diagnosis/Symptomology,
Etiology/Prevention,
Cures That Don't
Work, Cures That Do Work,
Products/Manufacturers...
Flukes/Trematodes,
Tapeworms/Cestodes,
Leeches/Hirudineans,
"Other" Worms and Worm-Like Parasites... & Yellow Tang Disease, Parasitic
Disease 2, Parasitic Disease 3, Parasitic
Marine Tanks, Parasitic Reef Tanks,
Cryptocaryoniasis, Marine Ich,
Marine Velvet
Disease Biological
Cleaners,
Treating Parasitic Disease, Using
Hyposalinity to Treat Parasitic Disease, Roundworms, Yellow
Tangs, Tang Health/Disease,
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Likely Paravortex |
Help needed for black
ich... hypo., no... Maybe not Paravortex at all... 2/18/08
Dear WWM Crew,
<Thomas>
My Achilles Tang is currently infested with both black and white spots. The
rest of the fish (no other tangs) seems ok except for a pale looking potter
angel.
<Oh! Saw a few of these Centropyge yesterday diving out at Crescent Beach,
here in Hawaii>
My tank previously had a round of black n white ich a few months ago and I
hypo the main tank + freshwater dip all fish + 1 month quarantine and
managed to rid the fish of both black and white spots
<Uh, no... obviously>
Now that the black ich is back, is it true that even if I were to cure all
my fish of black ich, they will still come back since they are already in my
main tank and black ich can go for months without a host ?
<Mmm, not usually months, or even many weeks>
I believe in minimising stress on the fish and letting it recover the
"natural way".
<Errr, not always, no... in the confines, conditions of aquariums, lifetimes
are shortened... vitality loss... sometimes lifetimes greatly
foreshortened...>
This method works for me with regards to white ich. But will it work the
same for black ich?
<Usually FW... This is all gone over and over on WWM:
http://wetwebmedia.com/paravortexfaqs.htm
and the linked files above...>
Thank you very much.
Regards,
Thomas Ong
<And now... this may not be "black ich" at all... but a trematode
infestation... Read on WWM re ID, treatment... Bob Fenner>
Black ick
on yellow slug - I have attached a pic of it... Actually marks on a
Cuke... 1/9/08
G'day Crew, I have attached a close up pic of the ick on the
slug. I hope this is of assistance. many thanks, Ron
<Interesting... My old roommate, Mike Kent, worked on this
turbellarain (Paravortex) for his MSc... I don't think "this is
it"... but instead maybe just melanophores... based as a guess, on
the sort of regular arrangement here... but a simple scrape, a low
power microscope and possibly a little E and O stain... and you'd be
able to tell definitively. Bob Fenner>
G'day All, Thank you for this great resource. I hope I am not asking
something already posted but I haven't seen anything about this
problem yet. my first problem (that I know of) in running a new tank
for 18 months. I have recently got Black Ick in my tank. my yellow
tang showed spots about 8 weeks ago, and on closer inspection I can
see the black ick on my yellow slug (not Nudibranch).
<This is a holothuroid... a Sea Cucumber... not a mollusk, but an
echinoderm>
I had been fw dipping the tang and vacuuming during water changes to
try to break the cycle.
<... please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/blkichf2.htm
and the linked files above>
my question is - How to treat the yellow slug for the black ich?
<I wouldn't... don't think this is "it"... will die off in the
absence of useful (fish) hosts...>
I have moved my fish - yellow tang, pair of clowns, dotty back and
cardinal - and the slug and a banded shrimp into my quarantine tank.
the only ones with ick that I can see are the tang and slug. I can
freshwater dip the fish but what to do about the slug???? as I
understand inverts aren't keen on hyposalinity/freshwater dips... my
plan is to leave the main tank fallow with its live rock, two
anemones and handful of turbo snails, for about 6 - 8 weeks to have
the black ick in the system die out. I would be doing reg water
changes and try to vacuum out any ick cysts on floor of tanks as I
have no substrate in either, and have UV filters running in both to
try to zap free swimming ick. then fresh water dip the fish and
return them to the main tank after 6-8 weeks. just don't know what
to do for the slug. (I was thinking of returning the shrimp to the
main tank tomorrow as I don't think he could host ick and it saves
trying to rinse him to be sure in 6 weeks time) any suggestions
would be great. Many thanks for your time and consideration, Ron.
<Read on my friend. Bob Fenner>
Re: black ick on yellow slug - I have attached a pic of it 1/14/08
G'day Crew and Bob,
thank you for your input about my dilemma, and identifying the Colochirus
robustus.
just getting back to you with regards to the black ick being melanophores on the
cucumber. the spots can be easily brushed off the cuke, and so would appear not
to be integral to it but rather external parasites...
<Agreed... perhaps these are Turbellaria... just "space parasites" as it were...
not deriving nutrition, likely...>
some are harder to dislodge, but they tend to be resting in pits or folds and so
are hard to get at with the brush.
<Microscopic examination...>
sadly, my yellow tang died in QT a day and a half after transfer... he was at
least 5 to 6 years old that I know of, and had had some rough treatment before I
began looking after him 18 months ago... perhaps stressed by the FW dip,
transfer etc or a secondary infection/gill damage from cysts affected him.
that leaves the cuke being the only inhabitant that I can see ick on. it would
be a bit of a coincidence for it to have contracted something else that looks
and behaves like ick when the tang came down with it. checked the LFS where I
got some turbo snails and they have a yellow tang in the coral tank that the
snails came from and it was absolutely covered in ick.....
<... as in Crypt? Or Paravortex?>
I am not able to get all the ick of the cuke at one time, and I suspect that
some ick are on it's feeding hands too, as well as underneath in his feet etc...
so I don't know that physical removal is going to work in the end.. would you
have any other stabs at advice on this one?
once again, many thanks for your time,
Ron.
<It will die in time (weeks) sans suitable fish host/s... Please... read where
you were referred to previously. RMF>
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Black Ich??? 12/8/06
Hello folks,
<Robert>
Get on you reading glasses, this is gonna be a long one..........
<Got them on>
I have a concern about my marine fish that you will probably have an answer
for, and it deals with Black Ich.
<The Turbellarian? Paravortex?>
I think. See, I just got up close to my fish tank for the first time in a
couple of days, and I noticed what appears to be a parasite on my Yellow Tang
and Percula Clown. In my experience with fresh water fish, it appears to be my
old pal Ich paying a visit, but it instead of it being white, it is black and
very small....smaller than a grain of salt. There is a healthy colony on both
of these fish mentioned, my others don't appear to have anything (Royal Gramma,
Scooter Blenny (I know you hate to hear about these in captivity,
<Mmm, no... not at all... if given/provided with adequate habitat, companions,
opportunity for foods...>
but I bought one that eats frozen foods regularly from both the fish dealer and
now me, but then again, who knows....his days could be numbered),
<All of ours to a degree...>
and a neon goby. There are some other inhabitants including a brittle star,
emerald crab, a handful of snails. I also have some random corals that came on
my live rock, and that appear to be
doing quite well (blue mushroom polyps, various zoos, and a rather large colt
coral that was a gift) and some Red Sea Xenia.
<A not-atypical "garden" variety mish-mash of cnidarians>
Let's cut to the chase.
<Love that term>
I did some research and I have filled my mind with all that I can find about
Black Ich and how it is more common in Tangs, but can spread to other species
readily.
<Yes, tis so>
However, I can not find any pictures anywhere online to positively ID what I
have found.
<Surprising... not an uncommon phenomenon... a situation/relationship IMO twixt
commensalism and parasitism>
There is no pattern to the "infection", and all the spots seem to be
independent organisms.
<Bingo>
With a brief description, that is really all that there is to it.
Is this enough to describe to you what I have in my tank to give it a positive
ID?
<Mmm, no... microscopic examination is definitive... Not hard to do>
Or can you at least steer me in the right direction for identification?
<Edward Noga, "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment">
Next, let's talk treatment. Even if I QT the fish, I still have about 60
pounds of live rock and another 80 pounds or so of sand. I'm sure that the
little black critters are setting up shop in the hiding spaces. How can I get
rid of these while salvaging the corals and such?
<Mmm... please read here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmdisfaqs.htm
and the next FAQ file linked above in the series>
Are there any treatments that I can apply to the tank with all the corals and
fish left inside?
<None that are efficacious and "reef safe", no>
I have read about a product called "Revive" (http://www.fishvet.com/7.html)
that claims to be the "end all" super cure (highly unlikely I suspect, but if I
knew everything I wouldn't be looking for advice!) that can be applied directly
to the tank without hurting the fish or corals or anything for that matter.
<Is not useful>
Shit. Is there a simple cure?
<You kiss your mum with that mouth? Potty mouth... Some fave lines from an old
Nat'l Lampoon record... Uh, yes... isolation of all fish hosts from the infested
system for several weeks, a simple pH-adjusted FW bath protocol to alleviate
them of Paravortex enroute to elsewhere...>
Is there any power in prayer or will I have to be more assertive in this
situation.
<Twelve jumping jacks, eye of a newt, barking at the full-moon at midnight...
That sort of thing? Nah!>
What are my major concerns here?
<Really? Debilitation, disruption of a sort of balance... I'd try availing
yourself of purposeful cleaners (see WWM re) and see if this "does it" enough
for you/them>
I haven't learned of anything too dire, but I imagine it sucks for the fish and
I want to destroy these black things. Everything I am reading seems very loose
ended on the situation. Help me in leading a full on assault. Together, we can
abolish this.
<The "war" on... crime, terror, drugs? More nonsense simple servant notions?
No thanks>
How's that for pep. But really, I need some help here before it gets out of
control. Thanks guys! I love your site.
Jon
<Read on my brother, read on. Bob Fenner>
Black Ich and Powder Brown Tang
I purchased a Powder Brown Tang (A. japonicus) last November and
unfortunately he had Marine Ich and Black Ich. I removed the fish and
placed him in QT. I treated the Marine Ich with hyposalinity and have
not seen any reoccurrences of cysts.
<Yes, easy to eradicate this turbellarian...>
I chose to treat the Marine Ich
before the Black Ich as the latter seemed to be a very light infection.
I have read in some cases, Black Ich has disappeared from fish during
hyposalinity but I do not believe I have experienced this. I have done
3 series of treatments using Formalin. I followed Terry B's article
(http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm)
in performing
three Formalin bath's (every other day). I did not see any major signs
of improvement. I followed up with 2 more series of bath's following
the treatment found on this page:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/formalinbaths.html
The only difference is that it requires the treatments to occur 3 days
apart. I used 20 drops of Formalin per gallon (45 minute baths) in
every case. I still see some spots caused by the Turbellarian flatworm
and quite frankly baffled that it could have survived all of these
treatments. Is there any chance that I am seeing something else?
<Yes... could be "just spots"... melanin in cells...>
Could
this be some sort of "super strain?" I considered doing some FW baths
but can't imagine it would be anymore successful than the Formalin
baths. Can you give me some advice?
<... I would NOT use any more formalin... too toxic, dangerous... Perhaps look
into purposeful cleaners here. Please read:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clnrfaqs.htm
Bob Fenner>
Thanks,
Matthew G. Little
Help with Ich & Paravortex...desperate!!!
Hi,
I was able to find sufficient info regarding the treatment of ich on your
website, but not regarding black spots. I noticed white spots (3) on the
pectoral fins of my flame angel and black spots (4 or 5) around the mouth of my
yellow tang that seemed to move around between observations.
<This/these are likely Paravortex... common on just-imported Yellow Tangs...
easily removed by freshwater (w/ or w/o adjuncts) baths. Much on this on WWM on
the species (Zebrasoma flavescens) use the marine index or the search tool at
the bottom of the homepage>
The flame angel doesn't scratch himself or dash around wildly like the tang, but
he does approach the cleaner shrimps several times a day! Both fish have been
moved to a hospital tank where they will join a Singapore angel under
quarantine.
<Ahh, you can do the dip/bath and place the Yellow Tang back in the main tank
in about a month...>
The Singapore angel shows no sign of ill health, except he is very secretive and
sometimes dashes for cover for no apparent reason!!!??? Besides, with his
coloration, ich spots may not be visible.
<Likely "just" behavioral... the fish is simply "spooked"
at the goings on of capture, transport, finding itself in a transparent box. Try
to reduce activity around the tank, leave some light on outside the system...
Bob Fenner>
Here's what I plan to do. Run the main tank fallow for 8 weeks at 80F and 1.024
salinity. The six cleaner shrimp will remain there. The hospital tank will be
treated with a Formalin/malachite green medication as per manufacturer's
instructions. And then the fish will remain there for the rest of the 8 weeks.
No dips were performed to date.
a) Will this kill both the ich and black spots worms?
b) Will this treatment still work if it actually was velvet that I misdiagnosed
as ich? there is no body slime....
b) Is a 15G aquarium sufficient to house a 2" flame angel, 3" tang and
2.5" Singapore angel for 8 weeks? The Singapore angel seems to dislike the
flame angel and the tang, in spite of me redoing all the decorations. This
tank is at 78F and 1.021.
c) Is the yellow tang such an ich magnet as your website leads me to believe
that I'm risking the health of the two angels by keeping him?
Thank you for you help, Narayan
Paravortex
Dear Mr. Fenner or Crew,
I have read through a lot of your FAQ's regarding Paravortex (Blackspot
disease), but I have a few more questions about it. We have a
Twinspot hogfish that was in quarantine for 4 weeks, and we never noticed
anything unusual. We put him into our display tank 2 weeks ago, then
started noticing tiny black spots (like pepper) all over his head and along his
back. Is this going to spread to our other fish?
<Maybe, maybe not... could be a trematode... or a few other possibilities...
including "just melanin spots"... if it hasn't expressed itself on
your other fish livestock, I doubt if it's "spreading".>
It does not seem to be spreading yet, and it's been 2 weeks. I think
we just missed it because of different lighting in the 2 tanks. Now,
he is very hard to capture. Is draining the tank a good idea to try
to capture this fish to dip?
<I would take a "sit and watch" approach for right now... if the
fish is hard to capture, it's likely in very good shape>
If we do capture and dip, do we return it to the main tank or back to
quarantine?
<To quarantine for a few weeks>
Or, would a cleaner shrimp be a better option at this point?
<Mmm, no... very likely to be a meal in short time>
We are also wondering about the value of quarantining if we can't recognize some
of these diseases?
<You are wise here... but "time heals all wounds" or is it time
wounds all heels? At any length there is value in quarantining other than
identifying (or even eradicating) parasitic, infectious and other diseases>
Thank you for your help and advice! Denise and Stan Krol
<Be chatting, Bob Fenner>
Black Ich during hyposalinity? – 07/23/07
Hi,
<Hello there>
Can a fish develop black ich while in hyposalintiy?
<Paravortex? Develop? Mmm, don't know what you mean exactly... must be imported
from somewhere...>
I've had a Powder Brown Tang (white cheek) in quarantine for about 10 days by
now.
She seems generally fine, eating well and lively, but I saw a few spots
(Cryptocaryon)
<... maybe>
the second day I had her and started hyposalinity.
Tank water is at 1.009. Today I noticed a few darker spots
in the yellow area by the tail.
They would be hard to see on the rest of her body because of the coloration. Not
sure if they've always been there and are natural or if it could be black ich.
<Likely much more to be stress markings...>
But I thought hyposalinity kills black ich!
Has anyone ever heard of it developing despite it or am I just misinformed?
Should I start formalin baths, or observe a little longer to see if the spots
disappear (in which case it would be black ich?)?
The fish still eats well and shows no other sign of feeling off, but there are
only very few of the spots.
<Maybe a bit of reading... I would NOT further "treat" this animal. Bob Fenner>
Best regards,
Susanne
Re: Black Ich during hyposalinity? – 07/23/07
Hi,
<Hello>
> <Maybe a bit of reading... I would NOT further "treat" this animal. Bob
Fenner>
Thanks for your advice!
I'll just finish the quarantine and observe for now.
<Ah, good... this is what I would do>
--
Best regards,
Susanne
<And to you, BobF> Re: Black Ich during
hyposalinity? 8/27/08
Hi,
<Howdy>
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 8:16 PM
> To: WetWebMedia Crew <crew@wetwebmedia.com>
> Subject: Re: Black Ich during hyposalinity?
> Hi,
> <Hello>
>> <Maybe a bit of reading... I would NOT further "treat" this animal. Bob Fenner>
> Thanks for your advice!
> I'll just finish the quarantine and observe for now.
> <Ah, good... this is what I would do>
Just wanted to send an update regarding the tang: she has been in the display
tank for a week now and is happy and eating well! :)
<Ah good>
It took a few days of posturing between her and the Scribbled Rabbitfish, but
they seem to have accepted each other now.
Best regards,
Susanne
<Thank you for this update. BobF>
Black spot
contribution, Turbellaria on host pic 8/15/07
Hello Crew. I really don't have a question at this time, as your
site has a wealth of information. Thank you. I have yet to find a decent
picture of what Blackspot disease looks like and it so happens I caught
a picture of my yellow tang which I think clearly shows signs of black
spot disease. Please correct me if I am wrong. If you can use this
picture to help other people ID Blackspot or whatever it might be please
do so. Thank you again.
-Jason (Clark)
<Thank you my/our friend. Will post with credit to you. Bob Fenner> |
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