Black ich on powder brown tang 5/15/10
Hey crew,
<Don>
I bought a 4 inch powder brown tang a about 2 weeks ago. I did not QT as I did not want to stress the tang out in a small QT (as I've heard about powder blues dying in QT)
<I would at least run such species through prophylactic pH adjusted freshwater baths ahead of placing in display tanks>
I placed the tang in the display and its been eating Nori and Ulva. This week, I started noticing small black spots that I believe to be black ich.
<Might be... could be Trematodes, Sporozoans...>
They are relatively small and dull and I've seen the tang trying to rub against the sand.
<Some of this behavior to be expected>
I read through some of your FAQs about black ich and it seems that you recommend waiting before trying to capture the tang (due to undue stress on the fish of chasing it down etc). I just wanted to know, how long should I wait before I should try catching it?
<I'd "try" purposeful cleaners first... Read here re: http://wetwebmedia.com/biocleaners.htm and the linked FAQs file above>
Everyone recommends doing a FW dip or formalin. Are there any other methods of ridding the infestation in which I can keep the tang in the display?
<See above and what is archived on WWM re Paravortex>
For example, would using PraziPro and keeping the tang well fed allow him to fight off the worms?
<If this/these are worms... might work>
Thanks,
Donald
<Welcome. Bob Fenner>
Re: Black ich on powder brown tang 5/16/2010
Thanks for responding Bob.
<Welcome>
I have two cleaner shrimp and two neon gobies in my system. I have noticed that the powder brown has been requesting cleaning from the Neons, but have not witnessed anything from the shrimp.
As for the powder brown, I noticed it was breathing more rapidly today. It is still nibbling on Nori, but I am concerned by the rapid breathing.
Should I let him be or do a fresh water/formalin dip?
<Is one approach. B>
Its my water change day, so I plan to dose PraziPro to the tank again.
Please let me know what the best course of action is. Thanks again Bob!
Re: Black ich on powder brown tang -- 5/18/10
Hey Bob,
Which would you recommend first, the FW dip or the formalin?
<... the formalin in the pH-adjusted FW bath... Please don't write w/o searching, reading first... Here this time:
http://wetwebmedia.com/mardisindex.htm
the first tray... "Dips/Baths"... "Additives...>
What's the best way to catch the tang without stressing it?
<... there is no such thing>
Also, say if I can't catch the tang, what should I do to ensure the tang remains healthy?
<... read on WWM re the species, genus, family...>
Is there any way to prevent reinfestation?
<Yes>
I will try and take a picture tonight to confirm if it's black ich or not.
<Non-magnified photos will not discern cause here. B>
Thanks,
Donald

Black spot, maybe not   12/26/08 Hi there, <Hello Dan> Sorry to be a bother, but I have a confusing situation over here. I have a 90 gallon reef tank with; yellow tang, blue tang, two clown fish, anemone, clam, cleaner shrimp, sally light foot, purple lobster, leather corals, hammer corals, some polyps, mushrooms and other bits and pieces. As well as about ten, well established mangroves growing in my sump refugium. Everything was going quite well until I added a yellow eyed Kole tang (which I do love) to my reef. Two weeks later I noticed black bumps and some color fading appearing on my blue tang. As well as some lateral line and forehead peeling on my yellow tang. So I went on the Internet and found your site. I think my blue tang has the black spot disease, <Mmm... actually... you would very likely see this now, concurrently on the Yellow, Zebrasoma flavescens... I think you may be witnessing Microsporideans... not really treatable... and not very debilitating> but I didn't notice any info about the spots kind of bumping out a bit, <Good description... and likely shiny, kind of shaped like cones... whereas Paravortex is dull, flat...> and one day he was fine and the next he has 20 spots on him. So I am guessing I need to quarantine him, but what about the Kole (who is fine except for only eating off the rocks so far) and yellow tang? <Again... or for emphasis, I would NOT move these fishes... at least as yet...> I think I can deal with the yellow tang as it seems as his peeling is do to poor water quality <?! What leads you to think this?> and stress. I am about to do a water change and hook the skimmer back up (after two years off due to the mangroves). <I would> Should I quarantine all of the tangs? can I do them all together? What product would you recommend? <No, yes, None> Could I do it in my mangrove tank or will the medicine possibly hurt them? <Depending on what's used, yes> Sorry again and thank you for your help. I have never had a sick fish before and was upset to see him, I do have a good photo if needed and also don't know how to find this page again. <Mmm, should be here with your message/response. Please do send the image along> Thank you Dan <Welcome. Bob Fenner> black spot, maybe not 12/27/08 Hi there again Bob. <Dan> I was worried about waiting another day to treat my fish, so I made a executive decision and went against your advice to wait to move the three tangs into a quarantine. I see why you said wait as it does seem to cause a lot of stress (for the fish and my girlfriend and I) to try to catch them. I was only able to catch the infected blue tang, but did so without disturbing my reef which seemed good as I have seen what happens when you start moving rocks around. I went to my LFS and showed them the same photo of the blue tang I sent you, <I still haven't seen this image> and he told me to quarantine all three and to treat the fish with aquarium Munster proto Marin Intensiv, <What are the ingredients here?> which I did do. I was reading the instructions and noticed that it said nothing of treating black spot or Microsporideans. I know I should have waited until you saw the photos but he seemed to be getting worse and I wanted to get him treated as soon as possible. I have the feeling I am not treating him with the right medication. What should I do now? <...> I know you will have probably answered all my questions in my second email but just in case, should I keep treating him with the proto Marin, and if not than what? >... nothing< should I catch and quarantine the other tangs? <... already answered> What about the other fish? <... How would I, anyone be able to determine what is actually going on here?> I have been reading about dips - would you recommend doing this? and should I keep my fish quarantined for 4-6 weeks? also I have a Marineland hot magnum that came with cloth like filter like those in vacuums, would this work for my hospital tank? or if not could I fill it up and run it with the sponge filters? Sorry for going ahead as I have read some of your articles where people did the same thing and they seemed annoying. Also sorry for two emails at once, I just wanted to keep you posted and if you thought the blue tang would be better off back in the reef tank, another day would not have gone by. Thanks so much for all your help. I appreciate it. Dan. <... Please, see, read on WWM re Acanthurid Health, Protozoans, Infested Systems... B> black spot, maybe not 12/27/08 Hi Bob Thank you for getting back to me so fast. What lead me to believe that the yellow tangs peeling is do to poor water quality is that, It had happened to him before and when I started trying to improve my water quality it went away. He may have started peeling before I introduced the Kole tang, and I have noticed that a lot of the yellow tangs in LFS do have the same problems. I guess I diagnosed him with the head and lateral line disease. I did have a few mangroves slowly die in my sump a few months back when on vacation, and when I questioned the guy at the LFS about his peeling he guessed that my nitrites were high, which they were, and said it generally happens when water quality is low and they are stressed. Do you think thou I could be wrong and my yellow tangs problem could be related to the blue tangs black spots? <Mmm, indirectly, yes... the pitting is very likely mostly due to "poor water quality"... is a type/form of HLLE...> I should mention that all of my fish are acting normal and are as hungry as ever, thou I have noticed the blue tang rubbing a bit on the live rock. I couldn't find any information on Microsporideans. Will my other fish be affected if I do not quarantine the blue tang? I read some where to remove activated carbon, I run Chemi-pure in a hang on filter should I switch it off or change products? <... I would keep using the Chemi-pure> As for the blue tangs bumps, on the blue part of his body there are bumps with a black spot in the middle and around the spot on the rising sides of the bump seems to be whitish. However on his black markings he seems to only have one or two white spots, and on his fins and tail just black dots no bumps. Does this sound like Microsporideans? <Could be... but... net cause/s?> Is there anything I should do? Hopefully the photos are usable and helpful. Thank you very much for your time Dan <Keep reading. BobF>

black spot maybe not... Not reading? Definitely!  12/27/08 Hi Bob, The product I was recommended to treat my tangs with was Protomarin Intensiv. It says 1 ml contains 20 mg of copper(II) sulfate penta hydrate, <... toxic... You do have a copper test kit I hope... and have read... re copper use...> and 1 mg tetamethyl-4, 4-diamino-triphenyl-carbinol. I followed the instructions for day one, and when I got up this morning there were about 10 black worm like things floating around on the bottom which seemed promising. I am sorry to ask this again but given the new information and photo of the blue tang, If this was your tank would you quarantine the other tangs as well? I assume I should because my Kole tang is the one who carried the disease in, and my yellow tang is weakened by the HLLE. Thank you Dan <There is no sense "quarantining" anything here... B> Re: black spot maybe not Hi bob <dan> You have been so helpful so far. All three of my tangs are in a quarantine tank now. I don't understand why they shouldn't be qt?? <Read> there are obvious spots all over one tang that must have come from my new fish, as I have never had any problems before. Why is that medicine toxic? <Ditto... Thanks Dan

Sailfin "Black Spot" only behind eyes?  12/22/08 Greetings crew, thank you in advance for your time and wise, patient advice. <Welcome April> I have thought for the past several weeks now that my Sailfin has Black Spot disease. He only has those Black Spot looking pepper dots just behind his eyes, a small cluster of them, about 7-10, all together, patterned like a half moon. None anywhere else. <Mmm, something else> The rest of his body is clear of any black dots. I have included a photo here of what my guys' looks like. <No photo attached> (This is not my fish, I've searched the web for an image to show you. I do not have permission to use this photo publicly.) So, does this fish have Black Spot? <Not if only behind the eyes, no> I see a little pitting on this fish, like some sort of erosion, mine just has the few black dots also seen here. So much research I have done on what this disease looks like, and every source I have read discusses the dots over the entire body, not just in one area as shown here. Are these handful of dots cause for concern? Happy holidays! April. <The markings may be symptomatic of HLLE... Please read here: http://wetwebmedia.com/HLLESWCauseF.htm and the linked files above, and try to send along a well-resolved pic if you can. Cheers, Bob Fenner>

Help needed for black ich... hypo., no... Maybe not Paravortex at all... 2/18/08 Dear WWM Crew, <Thomas> My Achilles Tang is currently infested with both black and white spots. The rest of the fish (no other tangs) seems ok except for a pale looking potter angel. <Oh! Saw a few of these Centropyge yesterday diving out at Crescent Beach, here in Hawaii> My tank previously had a round of black n white ich a few months ago and I hypo the main tank + freshwater dip all fish + 1 month quarantine and managed to rid the fish of both black and white spots <Uh, no... obviously> Now that the black ich is back, is it true that even if I were to cure all my fish of black ich, they will still come back since they are already in my main tank and black ich can go for months without a host ? <Mmm, not usually months, or even many weeks> I believe in minimising stress on the fish and letting it recover the "natural way". <Errr, not always, no... in the confines, conditions of aquariums, lifetimes are shortened... vitality loss... sometimes lifetimes greatly foreshortened...> This method works for me with regards to white ich. But will it work the same for black ich? <Usually FW... This is all gone over and over on WWM: http://wetwebmedia.com/paravortexfaqs.htm and the linked files above...> Thank you very much. Regards, Thomas Ong <And now... this may not be "black ich" at all... but a trematode infestation... Read on WWM re ID, treatment... Bob Fenner>

Black Ich???   12/8/06 Hello folks,    <Robert>   Get on you reading glasses, this is gonna be a long one..........    <Got them on>   I have a concern about my marine fish that you will probably have an answer for, and it deals with Black Ich. <The Turbellarian? Paravortex?> I think.  See, I just got up close to my fish tank for the first time in a couple of days, and I noticed what appears to be a parasite on my Yellow Tang and Percula Clown.  In my experience with fresh water fish, it appears to be my old pal Ich paying a visit, but it instead of it being white, it is black and very small....smaller than a grain of salt.  There is a healthy colony on both of these fish mentioned, my others don't appear to have anything (Royal Gramma, Scooter Blenny (I know you hate to hear about these in captivity, <Mmm, no... not at all... if given/provided with adequate habitat, companions, opportunity for foods...> but I bought one that eats frozen foods regularly from both the fish dealer and now me, but then again, who knows....his days could be numbered), <All of ours to a degree...> and a neon goby.  There are some other inhabitants including a brittle star, emerald crab, a handful of snails.  I also have some random corals that came on my live rock, and that appear to be doing quite well (blue mushroom polyps, various zoos, and a rather large colt coral that was a gift) and some Red Sea Xenia.      <A not-atypical "garden" variety mish-mash of cnidarians>   Let's cut to the chase. <Love that term>   I did some research and I have filled my mind with all that I can find about Black Ich and how it is more common in Tangs, but can spread to other species readily. <Yes, tis so> However, I can not find any pictures anywhere online to positively ID what I have found. <Surprising... not an uncommon phenomenon... a situation/relationship IMO twixt commensalism and parasitism>   There is no pattern to the "infection", and all the spots seem to be independent organisms. <Bingo> With a brief description, that is really all that there is to it.        Is this enough to describe to you what I have in my tank to give it a positive ID? <Mmm, no... microscopic examination is definitive... Not hard to do> Or can you at least steer me in the right direction for identification?    <Edward Noga, "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment">   Next, let's talk treatment.  Even if I QT the fish, I still have about 60 pounds of live rock and another 80 pounds or so of sand.  I'm sure that the little black critters are setting up shop in the hiding spaces.  How can I get rid of these while salvaging the corals and such? <Mmm... please read here: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/fshwrmdisfaqs.htm and the next FAQ file linked above in the series> Are there any treatments that I can apply to the tank with all the corals and fish left inside? <None that are efficacious and "reef safe", no> I have read about a product called "Revive" ( http://www.fishvet.com/7.html) that claims to be the "end all" super cure (highly unlikely I suspect, but if I knew everything I wouldn't be looking for advice!) that can be applied directly to the tank without hurting the fish or corals or anything for that matter.      <Is not useful>   Shit.  Is there a simple cure? <You kiss your mum with that mouth? Potty mouth... Some fave lines from an old Nat'l Lampoon record... Uh, yes... isolation of all fish hosts from the infested system for several weeks, a simple pH-adjusted FW bath protocol to alleviate them of Paravortex enroute to elsewhere...>   Is there any power in prayer or will I have to be more assertive in this situation.      <Twelve jumping jacks, eye of a newt, barking at the full-moon at midnight... That sort of thing? Nah!>   What are my major concerns here? <Really? Debilitation, disruption of a sort of balance... I'd try availing yourself of purposeful cleaners (see WWM re) and see if this "does it" enough for you/them> I haven't learned of anything too dire, but I imagine it sucks for the fish and I want to destroy these black things.  Everything I am reading seems very loose ended on the situation.  Help me in leading a full on assault.  Together, we can abolish this.    <The "war" on... crime, terror, drugs? More nonsense simple servant notions? No thanks>   How's that for pep.  But really, I need some help here before it gets out of control.  Thanks guys!  I love your site.      Jon <Read on my brother, read on. Bob Fenner>

Black Ich and Powder Brown Tang I purchased a Powder Brown Tang (A. japonicus) last November and unfortunately he had Marine Ich and Black Ich.  I removed the fish and placed him in QT.  I treated the Marine Ich with hyposalinity and have not seen any reoccurrences of cysts. <Yes, easy to eradicate this turbellarian...> I chose to treat the Marine Ich before the Black Ich as the latter seemed to be a very light infection. I have read in some cases, Black Ich has disappeared from fish during hyposalinity but I do not believe I have experienced this.  I have done 3 series of treatments using Formalin.  I followed Terry B's article (http://216.168.47.67/cis-fishnet/seascope/99SS1601.htm) in performing three Formalin bath's (every other day).  I did not see any major signs of improvement.  I followed up with 2 more series of bath's following the treatment found on this page: http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/formalinbaths.html The only difference is that it requires the treatments to occur 3 days apart.  I used 20 drops of Formalin per gallon (45 minute baths) in every case.  I still see some spots caused by the Turbellarian flatworm and quite frankly baffled that it could have survived all of these treatments.  Is there any chance that I am seeing something else? <Yes... could be "just spots"... melanin in cells...> Could this be some sort of "super strain?"  I considered doing some FW baths but can't imagine it would be anymore successful than the Formalin baths.  Can you give me some advice? <... I would NOT use any more formalin... too toxic, dangerous... Perhaps look into purposeful cleaners here. Please read: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/clnrfaqs.htm Bob Fenner> Thanks, Matthew G. Little

Help with Ich & Paravortex...desperate!!! Hi, I was able to find sufficient info regarding the treatment of ich on your website, but not regarding black spots. I noticed white spots (3) on the pectoral fins of my flame angel and black spots (4 or 5) around the mouth of my yellow tang that seemed to move around between observations. <This/these are likely Paravortex... common on just-imported Yellow Tangs... easily removed by freshwater (w/ or w/o adjuncts) baths. Much on this on WWM on the species (Zebrasoma flavescens) use the marine index or the search tool at the bottom of the homepage> The flame angel doesn't scratch himself or dash around wildly like the tang, but he does approach the cleaner shrimps several times a day! Both fish have been moved to a hospital tank where they will join a Singapore angel under quarantine. <Ahh, you can do the dip/bath and place the Yellow Tang back in the main tank in about a month...> The Singapore angel shows no sign of ill health, except he is very secretive and sometimes dashes for cover for no apparent reason!!!??? Besides, with his coloration, ich spots may not be visible. <Likely "just" behavioral... the fish is simply "spooked" at the goings on of capture, transport, finding itself in a transparent box. Try to reduce activity around the tank, leave some light on outside the system... Bob Fenner> Here's what I plan to do. Run the main tank fallow for 8 weeks at 80F and 1.024 salinity. The six cleaner shrimp will remain there. The hospital tank will be treated with a Formalin/malachite green medication as per manufacturer's instructions. And then the fish will remain there for the rest of the 8 weeks. No dips were performed to date. a) Will this kill both the ich and black spots worms? b) Will this treatment still work if it actually was velvet that I misdiagnosed as ich? there is no body slime.... b) Is a 15G aquarium sufficient to house a 2" flame angel, 3" tang and 2.5" Singapore angel for 8 weeks? The Singapore angel seems to dislike the flame angel and the tang, in spite of me redoing all the decorations.  This tank is at 78F and 1.021. c) Is the yellow tang such an ich magnet as your website leads me to believe that I'm risking the health of the two angels by keeping him? Thank you for you help, Narayan

Paravortex Dear Mr. Fenner or Crew, I have read through a lot of your FAQ's regarding Paravortex (Blackspot disease), but I have a few more questions about it.  We have a Twinspot hogfish that was in quarantine for 4 weeks, and we never noticed anything unusual.  We put him into our display tank 2 weeks ago, then started noticing tiny black spots (like pepper) all over his head and along his back.  Is this going to spread to our other fish? <Maybe, maybe not... could be a trematode... or a few other possibilities... including "just melanin spots"... if it hasn't expressed itself on your other fish livestock, I doubt if it's "spreading".> It does not seem to be spreading yet, and it's been 2 weeks.  I think we just missed it because of different lighting in the 2 tanks.  Now, he is very hard to capture.  Is draining the tank a good idea to try to capture this fish to dip? <I would take a "sit and watch" approach for right now... if the fish is hard to capture, it's likely in very good shape> If we do capture and dip, do we return it to the main tank or back to quarantine? <To quarantine for a few weeks> Or, would a cleaner shrimp be a better option at this point? <Mmm, no... very likely to be a meal in short time> We are also wondering about the value of quarantining if we can't recognize some of these diseases? <You are wise here... but "time heals all wounds" or is it time wounds all heels? At any length there is value in quarantining other than identifying (or even eradicating) parasitic, infectious and other diseases> Thank you for your help and advice!  Denise and Stan Krol <Be chatting, Bob Fenner>

Black Ich during hyposalinity? -- 07/23/07 Hi, <Hello there> Can a fish develop black ich while in hyposalintiy? <Paravortex? Develop? Mmm, don't know what you mean exactly... must be imported from somewhere...> I've had a Powder Brown Tang (white cheek) in quarantine for about 10 days by now. She seems generally fine, eating well and lively, but I saw a few spots (Cryptocaryon) <... maybe> the second day I had her and started hyposalinity. Tank water is at 1.009. Today I noticed a few darker spots in the yellow area by the tail. They would be hard to see on the rest of her body because of the coloration. Not sure if they've always been there and are natural or if it could be black ich. <Likely much more to be stress markings...> But I thought hyposalinity kills black ich! Has anyone ever heard of it developing despite it or am I just misinformed? Should I start formalin baths, or observe a little longer to see if the spots disappear (in which case it would be black ich?)? The fish still eats well and shows no other sign of feeling off, but there are only very few of the spots. <Maybe a bit of reading... I would NOT further "treat" this animal. Bob Fenner> Best regards, Susanne

Re: Black Ich during hyposalinity? -- 07/23/07 Hi, <Hello> > <Maybe a bit of reading... I would NOT further "treat" this animal. Bob Fenner> Thanks for your advice! I'll just finish the quarantine and observe for now. <Ah, good... this is what I would do> -- Best regards, Susanne <And to you, BobF>

Re: Black Ich during hyposalinity?  8/27/08 Hi, <Howdy> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 8:16 PM > To: WetWebMedia Crew <crew@wetwebmedia.com> > Subject: Re: Black Ich during hyposalinity? > Hi, > <Hello> >> <Maybe a bit of reading... I would NOT further "treat" this animal. Bob Fenner> > Thanks for your advice! > I'll just finish the quarantine and observe for now. > <Ah, good... this is what I would do> Just wanted to send an update regarding the tang: she has been in the display tank for a week now and is happy and eating well! :) <Ah good> It took a few days of posturing between her and the Scribbled Rabbitfish, but they seem to have accepted each other now. Best regards, Susanne <Thank you for this update. BobF>