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FAQs on
Betta Diseases: Velvet/Oodinium
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Betta Feeding, Betta Reproduction, |
Symptoms: Rapid breathing, dusty/powdered appearance
(usually reddish to brownish in color, not white). A very rapid onset
parasitic disease. Is brought in on other fishes or on wet materials from
an infested system.
|
Betta with Velvet - almost out of ideas, very worried
9/2/09
Hi guys,
<Hello,>
I have been treating a Betta for Velvet for several months. I started
with CopperSafe, carefully measured in a medical syringe. That seemed to
be working at first, but after weeks of gradual improvement he would
suddenly have a relapse, and it would start over again -- improvement
followed by relapse. Eventually, by reading your site and a few others,
I got wise to raising the temperature, treating him in a hospital tank,
and turning off/blocking out any lights. But the pattern continued.
<Do you use carbon in the filter? Remember to remove this when treating
fish.>
In desperation, I switched to Rid-Ich. This seemed to be working --
steady, slow improvement with no major relapses. But it's been over a
month now, and the improvement is very, very slow. So slow that I'm no
longer sure if he's getting better or staying the same. He's been almost
recovered for a over week now, but it's still on his head and faintly
visible on his body.
<I see.>
He's in a five-gallon tank, kept at 84-85 degrees. The carbon filter has
been removed, along with everything else. I'm feeding him daily,
pre-soaking his food and giving him a variety. The towel is only off his
tank for about 15 minutes per day, and the rest of the time he just has
a small opening in the front to see if it's day or night (thought that
might be important). If there's anything else relevant about his
environment I forgot to mention please let me know.
<Velvet (Piscinoodinium pillulare) is a disease that usually gets into
aquaria. It doesn't, so far as is known, lurk in tanks for years at a
time, waiting to jump onto unsuspecting fish. In fact the free-living
stage must
find a host within ~48 hours or it dies. So, the first thing to figure
out is [a] if this really is Velvet, and [b] how it got into your
aquarium.>
In addition to the medication and darkness, I've also been adding 1/2
teaspoon of salt per gallon.
<Do need rather more salt than this... at least 10 grammes per 45 litres
(about one teaspoon per 5 US gallons). Possibly more, up to 2-3
teaspoons per US gallon may be necessary.>
I cannot find an answer as to how much is best, that seemed like a good
guess, can't seem to find a saline test in any LFS. As I understood the
Rid-Ich instructions, the idea is to keep the concentration the same
(.5mL per gallon) while changing 1/4 of the water daily. I have been
doing this, but when his improvement slowed to a near-stop I went to 1/2
daily water changes, again maintaining the concentrations of salt and
Rid-Ich. I even suction the water from the bottom of the tank, imagining
that I am vacuuming reproductive cysts in the process. I don't know if
this is helping.
<Marginally, to be honest.>
I don't know if anything is helping. I don't know why he wasn't better a
long, long time ago.
<Are you sure this is Velvet?>
<<It is not or this animal would be dead. RMF>>
He's still active, eating and trying to get attention, but I'm starting
to wonder if the poor guy is going to have to live what's left of his
life in the dark, in poisonous blue water. His fins have started getting
a little
ragged, too. I don't know what to make of this, but from what I've read
it doesn't seem like any fungal or bacterial fin rot could survive in
there, so I'm wondering if the Rid-Ich is causing it somehow. I'm very
concerned in any case, I know this stuff is poisonous and I want out of
his tank ASAP, but I'm afraid without it the bugs would overrun him in a
few days. I'm afraid to experiment, terrified of another relapse. Please
help, what else can I do? And why is this taking so long?
Thanks,
Milo
<I'm concerned that you're actually looking at something else, e.g., a
"slime disease" type thing, where there's a bacterial infection of the
skin, resulting in excess production of off-white slime on the body.
This
can (usually) be fixed with antibiotics or suitable anti-bacterials.
Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Betta with Velvet - almost out of ideas, very worried
9/2/09
Thanks for the quick response, Neale.
<You're welcome.>
I have wondered too how Velvet got introduced. Some time ago I gave away
the fish that lived in another aquarium, and the folks who took them
used their own net. Even though it was a different tank, there may have
been some accidental contamination. That was shortly before my Betta got
sick.
<Sounds possible.>
As to whether or not it is really Velvet, I've never been 100% sure. It
doesn't look like "dust," as it is so often described. I don't see
individual particles, but it's a coating that is thicker when viewed at
an angle and thinner viewed in profile. It is a brown, rusty color, not
"off-white."
<Velvet is usually a distinctive metallic sheen, hence the name, and
tends to attack the gills first, so you usually see heavy (or rapid)
breathing alongside the other symptoms. It's actually pretty rare, in
the UK at
least, when compared to Whitespot/Ick -- in 25 years of keeping fish,
I've never seen it!>
To keep things short, I didn't mention that at first I only noticed
swollen gills and eyes and treated him with a course of Maracyn,
followed by Maracyn II. Neither had any effect. I began treating with
CopperSafe when I noticed the rust coloring, and he improved immediately
although, as I explained, he has never made a full recovery. Also, if it
was a bacterial infection, wouldn't the Rid-Ich kill it regardless?
<No, anti-Ick medications treat against specific Protozoans, not
bacteria.>
How do I determine if this is or is not Velvet? I need to be sure before
I change course.
<I agree, diagnosis is important. Any chance of a photo? A reasonably
sharp one, please! In the meantime, both Ick and Velvet should be cured
by appropriate use of heat and salt, so increase the salinity as
mentioned earlier, and see what happens. At the least, this won't harm
your fish. If that doesn't work, and the fish continues to develop
ragged fins, then treat for Finrot. I'd try something a little more
general purpose than Maracyn, perhaps Something like Seachem ParaGuard
for example.>
Thanks again,
Milo
<Cheers, Neale.>
Re: Betta with Velvet - almost out of ideas, very worried
(RMF, thoughts?) 9/27/09
Hi Neal, et al.,
<Milo,>
I was waiting to reply until I had good news. Unfortunately, Tietam is
still sick.
<Oh.>
After the first salt dip and ParaGuard treatment, he seemed much better.
Then, as before, the improvement slowed and finally stopped. I've done
two more salt dips, kept up with the ParaGuard, kept his water clean and
the temperature at 85F, and added more salt to his tank as we discussed.
The fin damage is reversing itself, and there are some patches of blue
through the rust-brown, but I can't see any improvement in the last week
and he remains a very sick fish.
<May take time. Good water quality and a varied diet will help. But
essentially, you have to stick with medication, using as required. Be
sure to remove carbon from the filter, if used, which medicating. Take
notice of any comments re: water changes on the packaging.>
One possibility is the salt dips weren't aggressive enough. I checked
around and guessed that a four-tablespoon-per-gallon concentration would
be appropriate, but I'm not sure.
<A saltwater dip is 35 grammes per litre, or 4.73 ounces per US gallon.
That's your standard. Tablespoon, teaspoon and similar measurements are
a bit vague and best not relied on, though I will tell you a level
cooking teaspoon measure of marine salt mix weighs about 6 grammes, so
there's just shy of six of level teaspoons marine salt mix per litre in
artificial
seawater.>
Perhaps you could clear that up for other readers as well, since
recommendations around the internet seem to vary dramatically.
<There's no variation at all among scientists about how much salt there
is in seawater: it's about 35 grammes/litre. Being trained as a marine
biologist myself, I prefer to use the textbook values rather than
recipes aquarists come up with.>
Also, Neal, you mentioned that the salt dip would "shift" the external
parasites. I'm not sure I know what you mean, could you clarify for my
own edification?
<There are two explanations here. At very low levels, a couple of
grammes per litre, as you'd use for treating Ick, the salt is used as a
continual "bath". It's added to the tank, and over a couple of weeks,
stresses the free-living stages of certain parasites to the point they
die, preventing them from re-infecting the fish. That's how the
salt/heat methods works for killing Ick. At much higher levels, seawater
"dips" are used to dehydrate both the parasite and the fish, on the
assumption the fish dehydrates much more slowly than the external
parasite, and so the parasite dies after a few minutes whereas the
recovers when returned to freshwater. It's a lot like chemotherapy or
any kind of drug that's toxic to both humans and disease-causing
pathogens, but the doctors aim to quit the treatment at the point where
the pathogens are dead but the patient unharmed.>
Additionally, recently there's been a dandruff-like buildup in his tank.
It seems to be irritating his gills. I've increased the water changes
and am holding it in check, but what the heck is this?
<No idea. Perhaps silt, perhaps fungus, possibly bacteria. If silt,
merely means the filter lacks mechanical filtration media; if fungus or
bacteria, usually indicates something wrong with the "balance" of the
tank.>
Leftover medicine?
<Or at least a side-effect of the medication with respect to otherwise
harmless bacteria in the tank, perhaps? Wouldn't be too concerned.
Physically remove.>
Is something growing?
<No idea.>
Please let me know if you have any more suggestions or recommendations.
And much appreciation for indulging my U.S. measurements.
<Don't use teaspoons to measure stuff. Use kitchen scales, and weigh.>
Milo
<Cheers, Neale.>
|
Several Sick Betta's 2-14-08
Hi Guys
<Hello, Merritt here and not studying!>
(2nd try, forgot some info and spelling was bad in first)
I am somewhat of a Betta fan, 12 at home and 6 at the office.
<They are like potato chips, you can't have just one>
I have 2x4 gallon tanks at work, each have 3 Betta's (I had these tanks made
specifically for my Betta's, false wall at back for the heater and filter)
<Nice setup!>
Last weekend, one of the air hoses from my pump, came loose from a joiner and
majority of the water siphoned out of the tank.
<Oh no!>
This tank normally has 0 nitrate and ammonia, stable pH, nitrate between
20-40ppm. I also add a little aquarium salt once a week. Temp at 80-81 I change
25-35% of water (depending on nitrate levels) 3 times a week.
I feed a variety of freeze dried blood and black worms, pellets, flakes and
frozen foods also (I find they like the variety)
<Great!>
Issue is, as 70% of water was lost in one tank, the ammonia levels spiked.
<Yikes!!>
I worked on Saturday and all was fine when I left at approx 12.30pm, so this all
happened between then and when I returned to the office at 8am on Monday
morning.
As a result of the ammonia spike and loss of heat, due to heater automatically
switching off when water level got low, my guys picked up velvet, that I have
been treating with aqua master multi cure (active ingredients malachite Green,
Methylene green and Acriflavine) and darkness
<Well, you are on the right track>
They did seem to be getting better, however, this morning, they seem to be
producing an excess amount of slime and have tendrils of slimy stuff floating
off their bodies. Also, one has fin rot, that I have managed with water changes.
<Um, not good. First cure the velvet, it will be much harder then the fin rot>
All 3 are eating and getting around the tank well still.
<That's really good to hear>
Can you suggest anything else that may assist getting rid of this without losing
my boys??
<I would increase the amount of salt in the tank or switch to Epsom salt and
change the water more frequently. Velvet is caused by a parasite and is very
contagious. I know of one product that works amazing on velvet (has saved
several of my fish!) called Maracide. It is a concentrated medicine that cures
external parasites. I buy it from here:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4723>
Regards
<You are welcome!>
Theresa Zonneveld
<Merritt A.>
Re: Several Sick Betta's
2-16-08
Hi Merritt and thanks for your
response,
<Glad to help!>
I looked for Maracide, but live in Australia and unfortunately it is not
available here.
Any other suggestions, as I attempted to order from the link provided,
but no options were available for shipment to Australia.
<Sorry, didn't know you were in Australia. If the Epsom salt doesn't
work, then retry the medicine you were previously using. But, I am sure
the Epsom salt will work>
In addition, they seem a little better this evening, for which I am
extremely happy. I have actually been changing 30-40% of the water every
day this week, as they have not been well.
<That’s good, keep up with the water changes>
Thanks for being patient, one last question, how much Epsom salt should
I add and how often, and does the salt break down, or continue to
accumulate in the tank?
<You should use 1/4 teaspoon of Epsom salt per gallon. Epsom salt should
be replaced only if you change the water. And do not completely re-dose,
just add 1/4 teaspoon or two to the new water you are adding to the tank
when you perform a 30-40% water change. The salt will not accumulate
unless you don't change the water and just keep adding salt, don't do
that. The salt will break down but it will take much longer than it will
for you Betta to recover>
Thanks again
<You are welcome again!>
Theresa
<Merritt A.> |
Question - Betta is discolored, looks
dusty, what's wrong? 6/13/07
Hi,
<Hello there>
I've had a male Betta for 3-4 months now and just noticed a problem. He
is severely discolored and has gone from blue and red to almost
brownish.
<Yikes! Bad>
It looks like there is a coating of brown dust on him.
<May be Velvet... or just poor environment...>
I thought it might be velvet, but it doesn't look like individual spots
<These are very fine...>
and they aren't shiny or sparkly. It's just all over. He's also been
staying in the top corner of his tank, not moving much except when
there's food. He is by himself in a 2.5 gallon tank and I do 50% water
changes once a week with tap water that has water conditioner added and
has sat out in a jug near the tank for at least a day
<Do set this aside a week in advance... much better>
to make sure it's the same temperature.
<... I take it from this statement that you don't presently employ a
thermostatic heater? This is likely a principal cause of your induced
trouble here if so>
I'm honestly not sure how long he has looked like this, as the tank
isn't lighted and I only noticed when I was right up against the glass
and looked more closely with a flashlight. I feel horrible that this has
happened to him. I went to PetSmart after trying to research to see what
it was, and the girl there had no idea. She told me to try BettaFix,
<Mmmm>
so I put in just under 1tsp of that yesterday, then did a half water
change today and added the amount required for the water I put in. I
haven't seen any changes in him, and I'm not sure if this will help at
all. Do you think it could be velvet or another parasite, and if so,
what should I do? Would adding aquarium salt help (I never have before)?
<Maybe... depending on...>
Thanks so much.
Christi
<Mmm, need more information re water quality... I strongly encourage
your reading here:
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/bettasysart.htm
and the linked files above. Bob Fenner>
New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly - 12/29/06
Hi there,
<<Hello, Mercedes. Tom here.>>
My compliments on your site. Very informative.
<<Thank you kindly.>>
Despite all the info, I think I need your advice. I have just introduced a
young Betta to a cycled 2.5 gallon tank (nitrites and ammonia 0, nitrates about
20). I watched him for about an hour in the LFS to check his breathing and for
signs of disease. He was the best of the bunch and looked very healthy. The
tank temperature is at 80F, and I have a UGF which could probably use a cleaning
based on the level of nitrates. The tank is stocked with 5 live plants (2 of
which will be moving to my other tank once I'm sure my other Betta is through
his velvet problem) and has been stable at 5 ppm of nitrates for 2 weeks, but
the first test yesterday (after I did about a 50% water change before adding the
new guy) was up to 20 ppm.
<<Agreed that 20 ppm is a bit high particularly coming up from a very
respectable 5 ppm.>>
Because he's so new, I'm not sure what his normal behaviour is, but he's
concerning me with the rapid breathing and fascination with the filter output
and high level of activity, including sliding down the sides of the tank.
<<Sounds quite normal to me, Mercedes. Could easily have been a description of
mine for the first few days that I had him.>>
While this could be normal, I'm concerned given my previous problem with
velvet. I should mention I lost a previous Betta in this tank who had a bad
case of velvet (I took pity on him at the pet store because he was beautiful,
but I could see then that his gills weren't closing properly so I knew it was a
long shot -- treated him with Quick Cure but it was too late -- he only lasted
two days).
<<As you have probably discovered with Velvet, the telltale signs are critical
to saving the fish. Once the infestation has manifested itself far enough to be
“apparent”, it’s often too late to treat effectively.>>
I broke down the tank and sterilized everything (bleach solution), leaving it
without a fish inhabitant for over a month. Everything I've read tells me that
velvet needs a host within 24 hours of replicating, and that the life cycle is
max 14 days, and that it
doesn't like heat (kept this tank at 80F for 3 weeks before adding the new
guy). Should I be worried about velvet (he has iridescent blue-green colouring
and I can't see anything that looks rust-coloured or reflective on him other
than this colouring when I use a flashlight and magnifying glass) or is this
more likely "curious about my new home" behaviour.
<<Based on what you’ve described, I would say it’s impossible for the
parasite(s) to have survived the sterilizing/fallow-time. I certainly understand
your concern what with your previous experience but, in my opinion, your fears
are unnecessary.>>
Also, to get the nitrates down, I think I should give the UGF a thorough
cleaning and vacuum the gravel. Am I on track with this?
<<If you intend to keep the UGF, I would concur that a good cleaning is likely
in order. Nothing wrong with these if you stay on top of the maintenance
required of them but there are easier ways to go here.>>
The charcoal part of the filter is not in, and I'd like to put it back in,
too. If this is a good idea, when should I be doing all of this? The new guy's
just had quite a trip and he's not adjusted yet, but if I'm going to do a 20%
water change or more to control the nitrates, I might as well take him out for a
short bit and do the rest of the cleaning.
<<Given the stress placed on your fish by moving him, I would clean the gravel
with the water change and add the charcoal now. Leave the UGF for the time being
but continue to monitor your nitrates. Let your Betta become more accustomed to
his new surroundings, and you, before cleaning the plate.>>
I just don't want to stress him too much. His breathing does slow sometimes
(when he's not racing around checking out the new digs), but it still seems too
rapid to be normal.
<<Consider adding some aquarium salt with the water change. I’m starting to
sound like the proverbial “broken record” on this topic (for those old enough to
remember what records are :) ) but I consider aquarium salt a ‘requirement’ with
Bettas rather than an option. I can assure you that you’ll see a significant
difference in his breathing and behavior in short order.>>
Thanks in advance for what I'm sure will be good advice.
<<You’re welcome, Mercedes. My best to you and your new pet. Enjoy the New
Year!>>
Mercedes
<<Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly
12/31/06
Hi Tom,
<<Hi, again, Mercedes.>>
Thanks so much for your wisdom. He seems to have relaxed quite a bit since
yesterday. I should clarify two things: my filter is actually a small volume
model from Toms that can be placed under gravel, but is not a real UGF. It has
two-stage filtration and I had removed the charcoal. The other is that I have
already added the salt (non-iodized), which I had forgotten when taking the
nitrate readings. I had a "Eureka" moment this morning when I visualized the
water test colour gauge, which shows darker shades of pink
for salt water at lower ppm. I cleaned out the filter, put the charcoal back in
and vacuumed the gravel yesterday in both tanks, and moved two of the live
plants to the other tank. The nitrate test came back at between 5 and 10 ppm
for freshwater, which would be under 5 ppm for salt water. I'm going to check
again today and in a few days for stability. If all is well, I'll revert to
weekly nitrate testing and weekly cleanings. In a 2.5 gal tank, how much water
should I be changing weekly? I've read suggestions of 10 to 50%.
<<I would go no higher than 25% with the changes here. Anything in excess of
about 30% should be reserved for problems with water parameters. Beyond that,
all sounds quite good.>>
Also, I notice that when fresh water is added to the tank and a Betta is in it,
tiny air bubbles attach themselves to him in various locations. Since velvet is
so hard to detect, I've used this as an indication that I may or may not have a
problem, though it could be another parasite that's also not easy to spot.
<<Whenever there’s a water change, gases along with oxygen are introduced into
the tank. One of the reasons why we recommend against large water changes on a
regular basis. In connection with this, the salt in the water increases surface
tension resulting in smaller bubbles than you’d find in pure, fresh water. (A
key ingredient to why protein fractionators work in marine tanks much more
efficiently than they will in freshwater tanks.) Less air in the bubbles means
they’re not as prone to rise quickly to the surface and will adhere to surfaces
below including fish (organics have an affinity for air – another principle of
protein skimming). Certainly not an issue unless you happen to be trying to
closely observe for problem indicators, right?>>
This is not my preference as it's quite a bit of turbulence, which I understand
is stressful for Mr. Betta. However, I'm happy to say that both of my guys had
very few air bubbles attached to them yesterday after the water change, so I
think all is well. My tri-colour with the white and purple body, which easily
shows velvet, is looking almost clean again and is back to blowing bubble
nests. (He came from the same location as the one with bad velvet, but was not
as badly infested or affected). Am I crazy?
<<Well, I’m not a “shrink” but I don’t think so. :) Sounds to me like you’re
understandably concerned is all. Been there myself actually.>>
Again, thanks for your help.
<<Happy to do so, Mercedes. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/3/07
Hi Tom,
<<Happy New Year, Mercedes.>>
Thanks for that info.
<<Happy to share.>>
Unfortunately, my worst fears were justified. The velvet finally appeared on
his body and fins 2 days ago.
<<So much for my optimism.>>
I now understand why my LFS sent the new guy home with me in a Methylene blue
bath. I thought they were just being careful, but now that I think of it, the
other CTs from that shipment had what I now know are telltale signs of velvet
(those little dark spots on the fins, even if you can't see the gold
dust). They saw something I didn't.
<<Like sending your new puppy home in a body cast. Wonderful…>>
I'm treating with Jungle Velvet Guard, and the rapid breathing has
stopped. He's still eating (though I am feeding him one Bio-Gold pellet every
two days right now, and will switch to frozen daphnia and krill to keep up the
fibre as he's a bit constipated) and has become more active in the past 36
hours.
<<Good.>>
I raised the temperature to 85 degrees as slowly as I could (it was 82 two days
ago). I understand temps that high weaken the parasite.
<<To a degree (no pun) but the key to higher temperatures is really to speed up
the life cycle of the parasite and hit the juveniles with the anti-parasitic
med’s as quickly as possible. Ultimately less stress on the fish in more ways
than one.>>
The tank is also surrounded by brown paper to keep out natural light (there is
no hood light). The next treatment will be tonight. Should I continue treating
for 10 days (as I have read the lifecycle of velvet is the same as Ich -- 10 to
14 days), or would less be sufficient with such a high temperature?
<<Treat for the full 10 days, Mercedes. You’re correct about the lifecycle
mimicking that of Ich. Not the only similarity, by the way. In propagation
behavior, they’re nearly identical. Let’s leave nothing to chance here and
follow the manufacturer’s instructions to the ‘T’.>>
Thanks, and Happy New Year!
Mercedes
<<Again, Happy New Year and good luck! Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/4/07
Thanks Tom.
<<You're welcome, Mercedes.>>
Now for another problem: nitrites were between 0.3 and 0.8 this morning, having
dropped a bit from closer to 0.8 last night when I did the 25% water change for
the meds. I can only guess that the Jungle Labs Neutroflavine is having an effect
on the biological filter along with the other ingredients.
<<Agreed.>>
I have double-dosed with Cycle (which I understand is not the best, but they
claim the formula has been improved) twice since doing the 25% water change per
Jungle Lab instructions.
<<I'll withhold comment until I research this, Mercedes. Things change in the
hobby and I don't want to give an opinion based on old information. (Cycle used
to be worthless but made big bucks purporting that it was the end-all, be-all of
cycling products.)>>
I will check again tomorrow morning, and do another 25% change and re-dose with
meds tomorrow night and add more Cycle the following morning. (This is
reminding me of taking pro-biotics after taking anti-biotics to help restore the
good bacteria.)
<<Ain't that the truth! Think BIO-Spira (Marineland).>>
Is this enough to keep the nitrites from being too damaging?
<<"Any" nitrites are damaging. The key is to keep them to a minimum, or
eliminated entirely.>>
I have also added another 1/4 tsp of salt to mitigate the nitrite effects.
Any thoughts?
<<Yep. Salt won't mitigate the effects of nitrites. Nitrites combine with
hemoglobin in the blood. In effect, the blood is starved for oxygen. Displaced
actually. Salt, by electrolytic effect, allows the gill tissue to take in oxygen
more efficiently. Nitrites combine with the oxygen. Catch-22, if you will, if
nitrites are in high presence. The upside is that your nitrite levels are >1.
Salt "might" mitigate this to an extent, but don't wager your fish's life on
it.>>
Thanks,
Mercedes
<<Good luck, Mercedes. Please, keep me posted. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly
1/5/07
Hi Tom,
<<Hello, Mercedes.>>
Good news is that the velvet seems to be disappearing from Mr. Betta's fins,
leaving them shredded, but hopefully they'll recover with time.
<<I'm happy for both of you! The fins will regenerate/heal as time goes by with
good conditions.>>
He's back to hanging out in the corner at the top of the tank, but still has an
appetite. The rapid breathing also is totally gone.
<<He's been through a lot so I wouldn't be concerned about where he's hanging
out as long as his appetite is good and the breathing has slowed and
stabilized.>>
Are the nitrites high enough to make more of a water change tomorrow night, say
35%? They're holding steady at 0.3 ppm, and nitrates are around 10. (My other
tank is 0,
0 and 5, so I know it's possible!)
<<The nitrite levels have to come down, Mercedes, so a larger water change is in
order. If these, or ammonia levels, are detectable, they're too high. No such
thing as safe levels of either.>>
I'm half way through the 5 day treatment cycle.
<<I'm betting you'll be happy when this is over. You're doing a great job of
staying on top of this. Keep up the good work.>>
Thanks,
Mercedes
<<Any time, Mercedes. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly
1/5/07
Thanks for your support, Tom.
<<No thanks necessary, Mercedes. You’re doing an excellent job.>>
My only concern with a larger water change is decreasing the effectiveness of
the meds. The Jungle Labs container says 25% water change before re-dosing. If
I go higher, should I compensate by increasing the dose, or do the meds
dissipate after 48 hours anyway? I'm just not sure how stable this formula
is. I would be happy to do a 50% change to get the water parameters closer to
normal if I thought it was OK.
<<Let’s simplify this. A 50% change would require double the dose as with a 25%
change – and I didn’t need a calculator for that, either – so why not go that
way and decrease the chance of error. Where your nitrites are concerned, a
little bigger will be better, anyway.>>
Next change is due at 11:30 pm EST tonight.
Thanks as usual, Mercedes.
<<You’re welcome, as usual, Mercedes. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/8/07
Hi Tom,
<<Hi, Mercedes>>>
I thought you might be interested in this info from Jungle Labs:
Hello Mercedes,
Thank you for your inquiries about Jungle(r) products. We are happy that you
have chosen our products to use in your aquarium to help you maintain the best
possible environment for your fish and plants. Although the Nitrofurazone in the
Velvet Guard(r) medication stays
active for about 4 days, but the other ingredients break down earlier. If it has
been 48 hours since your last dose, you can go ahead an make the larger water
change you are planning and just use a full dose again.
As the active ingredients break down, they can indeed produce some nitrogen
by-products, which would explain your elevated nitrite
readings. They are not alarmingly high, though. Adding a little aquarium salt to
the tank will help keep your Betta safer by giving
nitrites some competition for absorption into his body. An initial dose of ½
teaspoon of aquarium salt is a good idea. After the initial
dose, add only more salt whenever you make partial water changes and only enough
to salt the amount of water you are changing.
Thank you for being a Jungle(r) customer. If you have any problems or need any
other information, please do not hesitate to call our
Customer Resource Representatives at 1-800-357-7104 or e-mail us at
info@junglelabs.com. And don't forget to check out Club Jungle at
www.clubjungle.com. Check back regularly for tips and free samples!
Sincerely,
Karin Fairburn
Customer Resource Center Representative
Jungle Laboratories Corporation
<<Good of the nice folks at Jungle Labs to get back to you, Mercedes.>>
In light of this, would I be advised to do 50% changes every time?
<<I might argue with products, Mercedes, but not with manufacturers. I don’t see
where 50% changes would prove to be a problem in this case.>>
Also, now that he's feeling a bit better, would a salt dip be a good idea to
help with the parasites still on his body?
<<Nope. The parasites on his body are immune to treatment. In fact, even after
bursting away from the body, they’re (largely) immune. (I’ve come across
research that disputes this, to a small degree, but let’s not “split” little
hairs.) For our purposes, the only stage that the “tomites” are vulnerable to
treatment is after they’ve burst from the cysts at the bottom of the tank and
are at the juvenile stage of development, i.e. searching for a “host”.>>
(I think I can finesse a very gentle transfer method using a ladle, so he won't
be netted. I would use only 4 c. of tank water, salted with 2 tsp of sea salt,
dipping him for 5 to 30 minutes, depending on whether he shows signs of
distress. I can keep the water temperature stable using this volume. I have
used Epsom salt baths to treat constipation in the past, and was successful at
not causing too much stress. I had conditioned him to think it was a good idea
being in a small container by feeding him a small part of a cooked pea when he
was in there. I haven't done that with this one yet.)
<<A well developed method, Mercedes, and I commend you. The problem is as I’ve
mentioned. You can’t kill the little buggers while they’re attached to the fish
or before they propagate and move about looking for a host to infest. Luckily,
at that stage, salt, high heat, you-name-it, will do them in inclusive of not
finding a host within a short time.>>>
Thanks,
Mercedes
<<You’re welcome, as always. Keep up the good work! Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/9/07
<<Greetings, Mercedes.>>
Thanks for the advice, Tom.
<<You’re welcome.>>
Here's the new problem: he's starting to flash and rub against things again, so
I know the Velvet is still really bothering him.
<<Sounds like it.>>
His tail is half covered, almost everything except for the tendrils (he's a CT)
but they are decaying. He still has Velvet on his body at the base of his fins
and on his lower fins as well, though his tail seems most affected. When I
treated the other fish I had with formalin/malachite green (Quick Cure), the
Velvet was gone from his body after 24 hours. Was this a lucky coincidence, or
evidence of an effective treatment? I suspect you'll say it was a coincidence.
<<No. Actually, I would call it effective treatment. On the flip side of the
coin, we don’t know how resistant this strain of parasite might be. Could be
that it’s more resistant than the last. Not all “black and white” I’m afraid.>>
Tomorrow night is day 10 of treatment. I would think I need to continue
treatment until those on his body dislodge at the very least, and then for 7
days or more after that. Could this be with salt alone rather than meds?
<<Yes.>>
I have read that Velvet's lifecycle is even longer than Ick's, so would 14 days
with Velvet Guard, followed by 1/2 tsp of salt per gallon of water be
appropriate?
<<Therapeutic levels of salt would be on the order of 2-3 tablespoons of salt
per five gallons. I’d be looking at more like 3/4 tsps. per gallon.>>
I can move the live plants to another tank so I can treat with Quick Cure or an
even higher concentration of salt. I also have AquariSol.
<<Add the Aquarisol, with the higher salt concentration, at a daily dosage, per
the recommendation, of 12 drops per 10 gallons. If possible, slowly raise the
heat by a few degrees as well.>>
Should I just be patient, despite the nitrites, which are holding steady
at 0.3 ppm apparently because of the meds? In light of what you've said below,
I'm tempted to switch to salt alone and restore the carbon filter to eliminate
the med and nitrite stress.
<<I would be tempted, also, Mercedes, but this fish has been infected for a week
and a half. Let’s do this, add the carbon to get rid of the current medication,
increase the temperature and salt level for a couple of days. Keep and eye on
him and begin treating with the Aquarisol if there hasn’t been a noticeable
difference. We can’t leave him infested much longer. I’m getting a bit concerned
about secondary infection which is something we definitely don’t need right
now…or ever.>>
Frustration is an understatement.
<<I’m with you on that! With acknowledgement to Mr. Einstein, we can’t keep
doing the same thing and expect different results. We’ve got to break out of
this “holding pattern” we’re in.>>
Cheers,
Mercedes
<<I needn’t tell you to keep me posted. My best. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/10/07
<<Greetings, Mercedes.>>
I have the following meds in my arsenal: MarOxy (not useful with this) Melafix,
PimaFix, tetracycline, a Neutroflavine and Povidone/colloid mixture (which is
packaged as a fungus cure but actually treats bacterial infections rather than
true fungus), and Maracyn one and two.
<<If this fish doesn’t make it, it sure won’t be your fault! :) >>
The carbon filter is in place, and the 25 watt Elite mini-heater is now at the
max, changed from just ever so slightly below the max which gave a temperature
of 82-83F. I'm hopeful it will rise to 85F overnight.
<<In either case, this should do well.>>
The tank is covered with brown paper on three sides (the only sides with natural
light access). I will cover the 4th side tomorrow morning. I would do it
tonight but the temperature might rise too quickly.
<<I agree. Temperature “rises” aren’t nearly the problem that “drops” are but
you’re reasoning is very sound.>>
I could also wrap the tank in a towel to get the temperature even higher if
necessary.
<<Shouldn’t be necessary here.>>
I have added 3/4 tsp of salt (raising the per gallon amount to 3/4 tsp).
<<Excellent.>>
Also added some Cycle to help with the bio-filter (haven't managed to find the
other product at any local FS as yet). I will check for nitrites and nitrates
tomorrow morning.
<<Sounds good.>>
His appetite is still fine, and I'm feeding very lightly on a daily basis (e.g.
one dried blood worm, one bio-gold pellet or a small serving of frozen krill --
he doesn't like the daphnia any more).
<<Daphnia isn’t bad with hot fudge and crushed walnuts but then we’ve got the
“love handle” issue to contend with. Seriously, the regimen he’s on sounds fine
and I’m glad he’s eating. A very good sign, actually.>>
Is this still too much?
<<No. Right now, it’s a good “indicator” for you. Bettas tend to eat like they
haven’t been fed in a week. If he goes off his food, it’ll be a potential signal
that what we’re doing isn’t working.>>
I switched back to daily feeding when he got over the constipation. Have I
missed anything?
<<Every “i” and “t” is accounted for as far as I can tell, Mercedes. The rest,
now, is going to depend on him. His own immune system, hopefully strong, will
determine how this turns out. You’ve done everything, and more, that I can think
of to give him the best possible chance.>>
Mercedes
<<Should go without saying but, please, keep me posted. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/11/07
Hi Tom,
<<Hello, Mercedes.>>
Nitrites are at 0.15 ppm and Nitrates are just above 5 ppm. Temperature is
86F. He's still hungry, eating well, and now in a totally black tank
enveloped in fleece.
<<Sounds cozy! :) >>
9:30 EST will be 24 hours since the carbon filter went back in and the salt was
elevated. Can I use the nitrites as a measure of residual Velvet Guard?
<<Presupposing all else is as it should be, yes.>>
I assume your two day salt therapy suggestion had two purposes: see how he does
and let the old meds clear.
<<Actually, the elevated salt levels can be maintained for a while, Mercedes.
I’d like to go after this with a combination of the Aquarisol plus salt.>>
I strongly suspect I'm going to need the Aquarisol as he's still flashing like
mad.
<<The elevated temperatures are going to start speeding things up. Lord willing,
we’re going to start getting some positive results from your efforts.>>
Would tomorrow morning (around 34 hours after carbon) be sufficient if nitrites
have dropped yet again?
<<This would be an appropriate amount of time. My approach here is to give him a
bit of a break from being medicated with the Velvet Guard. Hard to qualify
degrees of stress, though. I’ve got to think that the infestation is harder on
him than the medication is at this point.>>
BTW, my Aquarisol is about 4 years old and the active ingredient is listed as
Zycosin (soluble copper salts), and the package says it is safe for plants, and
says nothing about removing the carbon filter. This seems odd. Any thoughts?
<<The adsorption of copper by activated carbon is poor (at best) to nil. It
needs to be removed by the use of a Poly-Filter, CupriSorb by Seachem or by
neutralizing the copper with an appropriate water conditioner which can, then,
be mechanically filtered out. Water changes prior to removal will facilitate the
process for obvious reasons.>>
Cheers,
Mercedes
<<Stay the course, Mercedes. Be talking. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly
Hi Tom,
<<Good afternoon, Mercedes.>>
Update: he's stopped flashing and rubbing, the velvet seems to be retreating
slowly, and his appetite has improved! (He's now eating daphnia again.) He is
swimming around like a curious Betta again. No bubble nests, but I think
they're in his future. There are a few new holes in his fins, but I'm confident
they will heal. I'll watch for a few days and add some Melafix if they don't
start to heal.
<<Nothing I like more than hearing good news! The holes in the fins will heal
with a bit of time and the good water conditions you provide. When things settle
out a bit, I’d still like to see you keep a “maintenance” level of the salt
going for him. He’ll be happier for it and we might just stop something before
it ever gets started.>>
I diverged from plan A by using Quick Cure (2 drops plus a very little bit more
as the water volume is just over 2 gallons). It almost immediately stopped the
rubbing and flashing.
<<Very glad to hear this.>>
I will switch to Aquarisol in a few days, restoring the carbon and waiting 36
hours to clear the Quick Cure if the remainder of the velvet has not dropped off
his body.
<<The Aquarisol is another item that you might consider keeping at a
“maintenance” level if even for a short while. The weekly dosage can be a great
preventative measure.>>
Save the holes in his fins, he's acting like a healthy fish with some annoying
(to me, anyway) velvet on his body. Huge improvement!
<<Wonderful news, Mercedes. It should go without saying that I’m very happy for
both of you!>>
As usual, I'll keep you posted.
<<I’d like that.>>
Cheers,
Mercedes
<<My best to you. Tom>>
Re: New Betta in 2.5 gal cycled tank breathing rapidly 1/25/07
Hi Tom,
<<Hi, Mercedes. Running a little behind. Sorry.>>
Finally, I can report almost 100% success: almost all the velvet is gone,
nitrites are back to zero (this happened about 5 days ago after hovering at 0.1
for a few days, having dropped from much higher with water changes and removal
of Jungle Velvet Guard using charcoal).
<<Wonderful!>>
Nitrates are hovering between 5 and 10, and ammonia is 0, of course. As soon as
the nitrites dropped to zero, his fins started to heal and his behaviour
normalized.
<<Also, good!>>
I will continue to use Aquarisol daily until all the velvet is gone, and then
for 7 days after that. From there on, as you suggested, I will treat weekly,
and use salt. His fins are almost totally healed, his appetite is great, and
he's behaving like a normal curious Betta again.
<<If he weren't a fish I'd kiss him on the lips! :) >>
This has been a struggle.
<<Give yourself a huge pat on the back, Mercedes!>>
Should there be a next time, it will be Quick Cure and Aquarisol to the rescue,
I hope.
<<Once is enough. ;) >>
Anyone interested in some Velvet Guard? Going cheap!
<<Hmmm... No takers, I'm afraid.>>
While the Acriflavine may be helpful, the nitrifiers were really unhelpful.
<<So much going on with med's, Mercedes. Resistance, et. al. Almost scary...>>
Thanks again, Tom. It's comforting to know there's somewhere to turn in
situations like these.
Mercedes
<<You did all the work! I was just here for moral support...mostly. Glad to hear
everything's going well. Tom>>
Velvet 1/21/06
Hey there! It's me again!
The blue crown tail that I previously asked about has an update!
Remember I said he was listless? well... a few days ago, I noticed he had this
fine golden dust-y looking stuff on him. Now, growing up with fish, I knew
EXACTLY what my Betta (and the Betta next to it, unfortunately) had. VELVET!!!
<Mmmm>
so, i put some Meth Blue in the water... (don't worry, i followed directions!)
and gave them a PROMPT water change.
my questions are this:
1) How long does/will Velvet last?
<Days to a couple weeks... if treated properly>
2) Is Meth Blue okay to use on my fish?
<Yes>
3) My red Betta that has Velvet is peeling. It looks like he is shedding a few
scales. Is this normal? What is this?
<Mucus, body slime>
THANKS ALOT!!!
<No such word as alot. Bob Fenner>
Renee
Question about Betta behavior and velvet
Hi,
I just bought my Betta about two weeks ago. He is very colorful and active.
Lately, however, I've spotted several small areas on him that look a little
discolored. There wouldn't be a whole spot, just like two scales. I did shine a
flashlight on him and thought that perhaps he had velvet, so I treated him with
Maracyn-Two (given to me by the pet store).
<Mmm, Minocycline? Antibiotics are useful here only for secondary effects
http://groups.msn.com/TheBettaObsession/bettaillnessandtreatment.msnw
>
I followed the instructions as well as given him a salt bath. The spots
disappeared, but he sometimes starts swimming up and down in the corner of the
tank and kind of jerks about and I don't see him scratching against the
decorations. I change the water very often, so I don't think it's the water or
poisoning. He doesn't stay on the bottom neither nor is there a lack of appetite
and he acts pretty normal. Sometimes he does open his mouth wide, but that is
rare. Is this behavior normal? or is he sick? Thanks for the help! LST
<Hard to say... is the fish's tank/container heated? Lethargy is pretty much a
normal state with Bettas... more so at lower temperatures. Bob Fenner>
Re: Question about Betta behavior and velvet
The tank's temp is usually between 70-80, pretty warm.
<This is too much of a range, change... should be toward the 80 degree F. point
and not changing>
He acts pretty normal, but I have noticed that there may be some gold dusting on
his belly, but I've already treated him, so why would it still be there?
<Might be "just coloring">
Could the parasites still be there? I've washed the tank several times with very
hot water. Now I'm almost sure it's velvet except the one symptom he doesn't
have is the lethargy and the gasping for air. Still been giving him salt baths
though. Any suggestions? Thank you! LST
<I assure you that this fish does NOT have Velvet... this dinoflagellate
disease/parasite is very distinctive in its effects on its hapless hosts... and
you've mentioned that you don't observe this... I would not worry, or treat the
fish further than the salt use. Bob Fenner>
Re: Question about Betta behavior and velvet
Thank you so much for your help! I just have one last question, there are no
visible signs of sickness and I change the water quite often, so then why has he
been swimming up and down in the corner of the tank (he kind of thrashes).
Coloring is fine, fins aren't clamped. It's as if he's having spasms.
LST
<Most likely your Betta is simply "challenging" the "Betta in the window"...
it's own reflection. Bob Fenner>
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